1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:05,200 Speaker 1: Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of iHeartRadio and Grim 2 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:11,120 Speaker 1: and Mild from Aaron Mankie. Listener discretion advised Danish Sports Here. 3 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:14,400 Speaker 1: I am still on maternity leave and so we're continuing 4 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:18,600 Speaker 1: the archival series on the six Wives of Henry the Eighth. 5 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:24,040 Speaker 1: Today's episode is focused on Katherine Howard, the teenager that 6 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 1: King Henry the Eighth fell in love with, who ultimately 7 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:32,640 Speaker 1: spoiler alert, lost her head. But was she actually guilty 8 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:40,360 Speaker 1: of what the king accused her of enjoy. 9 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:45,360 Speaker 2: On November eighth, fifteen forty one, Queen Katherine Howard was 10 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:49,680 Speaker 2: brought to a small room to sit opposite Thomas Cranmer, 11 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:55,040 Speaker 2: Archbishop of Canterbury. The archbishop had assured King Henry the 12 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:58,360 Speaker 2: Eighth a few days prior that his interrogation would be 13 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:02,280 Speaker 2: harsh and merciless, that he would import on the King's 14 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 2: young bride the severity of her crimes and scare her 15 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:10,960 Speaker 2: into full honesty. But when Cranmer saw the young girl, 16 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:15,959 Speaker 2: he felt his resolve drain away. She was weeping, already 17 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:21,680 Speaker 2: frantic with grief and terror, her bloodshot eyes darting around 18 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 2: the room as if an executioner's blade could appear at 19 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:30,839 Speaker 2: any moment. But she also looked so small, so young. 20 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:34,399 Speaker 2: She was a nineteen year old girl, and she was 21 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 2: in a chair that looked far too big for her. 22 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:42,400 Speaker 2: Cranmer really had all the information already that his investigation 23 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:46,760 Speaker 2: really needed. Only two weeks ago, the allegations had just 24 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:50,480 Speaker 2: been a rumor, a single rumor from a single source. 25 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 2: The claim was this that the new Queen had been 26 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 2: less than virginal when she had married the king. Some 27 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 2: one had informed the archbishop that in Catherine's home growing up, 28 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 2: she had not one but two affairs, first with her 29 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:12,920 Speaker 2: music teacher and then with her grandmother's secretary. Did you 30 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:16,600 Speaker 2: or did you not? Cranmar began as soon as Catherine 31 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:20,880 Speaker 2: had caught her breath, have a sexual relationship with your 32 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 2: music teacher, Henry Mannox when you were living with your grandmother, 33 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:32,360 Speaker 2: the dowager Duchess in Lambeth. Katherine wailed, no, sir, it 34 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 2: was a flirtation, that's all. He never knew me in 35 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 2: the way a husband knows his wife. I have only 36 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 2: ever been true to King Henry. And what of a secretary. 37 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 2: Some time later, a man named Francis Diurham. Did you 38 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 2: know him intimately? Catherine's breath began to quicken erratically. Cranmer 39 00:02:56,760 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 2: noticed her cheeks and dressed sleeves were both wet with tears. 40 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 2: Be honest, child, Cranmar said, The Lord is merciful to 41 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:10,640 Speaker 2: those who are honest. As almost an afterthought, he added, 42 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:16,200 Speaker 2: I have already spoken to both men. Catherine didn't respond, 43 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:21,240 Speaker 2: and Cranmar continued, you and Dearham called each other husband 44 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:27,240 Speaker 2: and wife? Did you not? Catherine nodded, Were you formally 45 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 2: bound to Denham? The archbishop continued, still unable to quite 46 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:35,680 Speaker 2: locate the harsh tone that he had rehearsed. Did you 47 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 2: lie with him? Once more? Catherine nodded her head. We 48 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 2: did lie together two or three times in my bed 49 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 2: in the maiden's chamber when I lived in Lambeth. But 50 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:51,720 Speaker 2: I never betrayed King Henry. I never betrayed my husband 51 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:55,280 Speaker 2: or sinned against him in any way. But she had 52 00:03:55,320 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 2: already said enough. She had betrayed the king, betrayed him 53 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 2: by pretending to be a virgin in a lie by omission, 54 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 2: humiliated the king by now letting the whole world know 55 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 2: that he had been fooled by a teenager. Catherine broke 56 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:17,680 Speaker 2: down in sobs. As he left, the archbishop quietly whispered 57 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:20,640 Speaker 2: to the guards that they should remove any items from 58 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 2: her chamber that might allow her to commit suicide. Catherine 59 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:28,720 Speaker 2: Howard and King Henry the Eighth had only been married 60 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 2: about sixteen months, and now with her past revealed, she 61 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 2: knew that her time as queen was over. With Henry's history, 62 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 2: she would be lucky to make it out with her 63 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 2: head for a little while. It seemed as though she might. 64 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 2: After her interrogation, Catherine was sent away from court to 65 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:52,920 Speaker 2: Sion Abbey. It seemed as though the King was going 66 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:57,360 Speaker 2: to show her mercy. Her arrangement with Frantis Dearham could 67 00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:00,960 Speaker 2: technically qualify as a pre contract, would mean her marriage 68 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:03,720 Speaker 2: to Henry was invalid, getting him off the hook easy. 69 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 2: Catherine would have to give up her jewels and possessions 70 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 2: and live in exile, away from court for the rest 71 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:12,560 Speaker 2: of her life. It looked as though that was what 72 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 2: was going to happen. It looked that way for exactly 73 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 2: three days. Three days after Catherine Howard's interrogation, Frantis Dearham revealed, 74 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 2: under torture something else about Queen Catherine, something that the 75 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 2: King wouldn't be able to look upon with mercy. From 76 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 2: that moment, Catherine's fate was sealed. I'm Danish Schwartz and 77 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:55,440 Speaker 2: this is noble blood. When Katherine Howard, motherless girl, was 78 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:58,279 Speaker 2: eight years old, she was sent to live at the 79 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:03,120 Speaker 2: estate of her father's stepmother, her step grandmother, the Dowager 80 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:08,600 Speaker 2: Duchess of Norfolk. The Dowager Duchess seemed to collect wards. 81 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:12,039 Speaker 2: She had about a dozen or so girls under her care, 82 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 2: mostly the daughters of poorer relations, and the idea was 83 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:21,360 Speaker 2: that under the Dowager Duchess's supervision, the girls would learn 84 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:26,480 Speaker 2: the skills of court and aristocracy, although in effect supervision 85 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:32,240 Speaker 2: was a little lax. The year Katherine Howard turned thirteen, 86 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 2: two major things happened. First, her cousin Anne Boleyn was 87 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:42,560 Speaker 2: beheaded for adultery during her marriage to King Henry the 88 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 2: eighth Second, Katherine Howard began a flirtation with her music teacher, 89 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 2: a man named Henry Mannox, who had been hired to 90 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 2: teach the girls how to play the Virginals. Mannox was 91 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 2: exactly the type of man Catherine would fall in love 92 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:04,480 Speaker 2: with for the rest of her life. He was every 93 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 2: stereotype of a poetic musician, moody, romantic, wildly passionate. We 94 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 2: don't know how old Mannix was at the time. He 95 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 2: could have been a teenager himself somewhere around nineteen, or 96 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 2: he could have been approaching forty. Either way, it was 97 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:28,679 Speaker 2: not a relationship that an extremely young aristocratic woman should 98 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:32,520 Speaker 2: have been engaged in, especially not in a world in 99 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 2: which a woman's sexual purity was her primary currency. Catherine, 100 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:42,040 Speaker 2: for her part, refused to let Mannox go all the way. 101 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:47,160 Speaker 2: The relationship occurred mainly in the hiding spots around the 102 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 2: estate grounds, where they could kiss each other and whisper 103 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 2: words of love into each other's ears. That's where the 104 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 2: Dowager Duchess found them kissing in an alcove near the chapel. 105 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 2: The Dowager Duchess slapped Catherine twice and forbade the couple 106 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 2: from ever seeing each other again. The warning didn't deter 107 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 2: the pair. I don't know why you're still seeing her, 108 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 2: said Mary Lassal's one day to Mannox. Mary Lassles was 109 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 2: another young woman under the Dowager Duchess's lack supervision, but 110 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 2: lower ranked than Katherine, and so she felt a sort 111 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 2: of kinship with Mannox, who was more or less a servant. 112 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 2: She's much too high born for you, Mary said, she's 113 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:36,960 Speaker 2: never going to marry you. You know that right. Mannox 114 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 2: sneered and curled his lip. He took a step closer 115 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:44,360 Speaker 2: to Mary Lassal's and told her that he already knew 116 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 2: Catherine Howard by her private parts. And he said, she's 117 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:54,559 Speaker 2: already promised her maiden had to me. From Mary Lassal's 118 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:58,920 Speaker 2: word got around and back to Catherine Howard what Mannix 119 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:03,280 Speaker 2: had said. She ended their relationship. The next day in 120 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 2: the estate's orchard. Mannix pleaded that he was just so 121 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 2: far in love with her that he didn't know what 122 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:15,240 Speaker 2: he said, but Catherine didn't care. Besides, Mary Lassell's had 123 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:21,600 Speaker 2: been right. She was too high born for him. That's 124 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:24,680 Speaker 2: why teenage Catherine felt as though she was a much 125 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:31,079 Speaker 2: better fit for Francis Dearham, the Dowager Duchess's secretary. Durham 126 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 2: already had a reputation and seduced a good percentage of 127 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 2: the women at the estate, including Catherine's own secretary. In fact, 128 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:43,960 Speaker 2: it was she who recommended Dearham to Catherine, praising him 129 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 2: so highly that Catherine couldn't help but be intrigued. It 130 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:52,959 Speaker 2: was the type of whirlwind passion that only a teenager 131 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 2: can have. Within months, they were calling each other husband 132 00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 2: and wife, planning for an imaginary future together. They sent 133 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 2: each other gifts and wrote each other letters. Katherine, still 134 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:10,560 Speaker 2: under her grandmother's custody, didn't have the income to buy 135 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:14,240 Speaker 2: the dresses she wanted, and so Dearham bought her beautiful 136 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:18,640 Speaker 2: fabric and taught her which dressmaker to go to. I'll 137 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 2: pay you back, I promise, Catherine said. Durham just smiled. 138 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 2: Though the girls at the dowager Duchess's estate slept in 139 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:34,720 Speaker 2: a single room, the maiden's chamber, and though the girls 140 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 2: usually slept to a bed, there were still ways for 141 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:44,320 Speaker 2: girls to entertain male visitors. The maiden's chamber was locked 142 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:48,440 Speaker 2: every night, to preserve the girl's virtue, of course, but 143 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:52,680 Speaker 2: Catherine had an answer for that. While her friends giggled 144 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:57,200 Speaker 2: and encouraged her, Catherine snuck into the dowager Duchess's chamber 145 00:10:57,320 --> 00:11:01,200 Speaker 2: while her stepgrandmother was sleeping and stole the key, quickly 146 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 2: making a copy and replacing it. Men snuck into the room. 147 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:08,679 Speaker 2: Then Katherine wasn't the only one of the Wards who 148 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:13,479 Speaker 2: had an illicit boyfriend. The men brought with them wine, strawberries, 149 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:16,319 Speaker 2: and d apples, and the boys and girls would laugh 150 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 2: and talk or sneak off to beds together until one 151 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 2: or two in the morning. We can be almost certain 152 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:26,200 Speaker 2: that Dearham and Katherine, who by this point had been 153 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:32,200 Speaker 2: spending every moment together, were having sex. Durham privately assured 154 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:35,640 Speaker 2: his friends that he knew enough to ensure that Katherine 155 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 2: wouldn't get pregnant. Meanwhile, Mannox, bitter music teacher, was furious 156 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 2: at Katherine and her new paramore. In his neatest script, 157 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:50,720 Speaker 2: he wrote a letter to the Dowager Duchess informing her 158 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 2: that if she were to come to the Maiden's chamber 159 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:55,959 Speaker 2: an hour or so after she normally went to bed, 160 00:11:56,600 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 2: she would see something she wouldn't like very much, involving 161 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:06,400 Speaker 2: a certain one of her secretaries. Mannix anonymously left the 162 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:10,319 Speaker 2: note in the Dowager Duchess's pew in the chapel so 163 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:14,280 Speaker 2: she would find it. That night, she stormed into the 164 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 2: Maiden's chamber to catch not Catherine and Dearham, but a 165 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:22,679 Speaker 2: man named Hastings, another one of her secretaries, who had 166 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 2: already been caught once flirting with one of the other girls. 167 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:32,560 Speaker 2: Catherine was in the clear, but Catherine knew who the 168 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 2: note had been written by, and she knew that it 169 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:39,440 Speaker 2: had been intended for her, and Dearham agreed. Puffing out 170 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 2: his chest. Dearham confronted Mannox, telling him that his behavior 171 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:46,760 Speaker 2: made it appear as though he'd never loved Catherine at all. 172 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 2: Mannox called him a cab. Two jealous men dressing each 173 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:55,200 Speaker 2: other down over their secret love affair. It was like 174 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 2: a scene from Gossip Girl, half a millennium before its time. 175 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 2: People knew that Dearham and Catherine were having an affair 176 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 2: people other than the Dowager Duchess. But people also liked Catherine. 177 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:11,320 Speaker 2: She was vivacious and funny and entertaining. Plus she was 178 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:14,560 Speaker 2: high ranking. They had no reason to rat her out 179 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:17,319 Speaker 2: or risk incurring the wrath of her grandmother for being 180 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 2: the ones to deliver the bad news. But like almost 181 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:25,880 Speaker 2: all wildly passionate love affairs, the one between Dearham and 182 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 2: Catherine became less exciting. Catherine stopped being entranced by Dearham 183 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 2: when she was presented with a new gilded opportunity. Her 184 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:39,840 Speaker 2: family connections had secured her a position as a lady 185 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 2: in waiting for the new Queen Anne of Cleaves, who 186 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:47,440 Speaker 2: would be arriving to England later that fall. In the 187 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:50,400 Speaker 2: same apple orchard where she had broken up with Mannix, 188 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:55,440 Speaker 2: Katherine Howard told Dearham that she was leaving. His version 189 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:59,440 Speaker 2: of the story involves her weeping with sorrow. Her version 190 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 2: is her losing her temper at his insistence that they 191 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:07,080 Speaker 2: stay together. It's possible both occurred. She cried, and she 192 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:10,080 Speaker 2: lost her temper, and she left Dearham, thinking that there 193 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:12,200 Speaker 2: was still a chance they were going to end up together. 194 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 2: But there wasn't. She was just going. Catherine had grown 195 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:25,840 Speaker 2: up thinking her house in Lambeth was grand. She had 196 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:28,760 Speaker 2: no idea what would await her at the court of 197 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:32,760 Speaker 2: Henry the Eighth. So many people, so many dances, so 198 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 2: much food, so much to learn for the confident girl 199 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 2: who had only ever been the queen Bee of the 200 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 2: band of teenagers in the maidens Chamber. She was paid 201 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 2: ten pounds a year. With her first paycheck, she sent 202 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:51,600 Speaker 2: money back to Dearham to repay him for the fabric 203 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 2: he had bought her. The new Queen of England, Anne 204 00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:59,240 Speaker 2: of Cleaves wasn't set to arrive for another few months. 205 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 2: In the meantime, the new ladies got to know each 206 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 2: other and got to know the men of court. For Katherine, 207 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 2: that meant being instantly drawn to a gentleman named Thomas Culpeper. 208 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 2: Culpeper was tall and athletic, the type of man that 209 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:21,800 Speaker 2: Henry kept around him because he made him feel young again. Culpeper, 210 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 2: for his part, had an incredibly checkered past. There was 211 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 2: a rumor about him being convicted of raping a woman 212 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 2: in the village and murdering a villager who saw them, 213 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:36,520 Speaker 2: only to get off without consequences with a royal pardon. 214 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:41,239 Speaker 2: Catherine knew none of that. She only saw the handsome, 215 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 2: charismatic man that women seemed to gravitate towards, like hummingbirds 216 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 2: to a flower, and Culpeper saw Katherine a stunningly gorgeous 217 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 2: girl of sixteen. Every contemporary description of Catherine Howard has 218 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:02,920 Speaker 2: that in common, the understanding that Catherine was uniquely pretty. 219 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:07,720 Speaker 2: For a few weeks, Culpeper and Catherine engaged in a 220 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 2: typical court flirtation. Catherine would report back to her fellow 221 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 2: ladies in waiting, giggling helping to decipher everything that Culpeper 222 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 2: had said to her that day. Catherine knew that her 223 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 2: virtue at court would be essential in ensuring that she 224 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 2: make an advantageous marriage, and so when Culpeper started making 225 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 2: sexual overtures expecting her to come to bed, she declined, 226 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:37,360 Speaker 2: even as he professed his courtly love. If he loved her, 227 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:42,480 Speaker 2: Catherine believed he would understand, but Culpeper wasn't a man 228 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:48,080 Speaker 2: accustomed to sexual rejection or even delay. With Catherine's refusal, 229 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 2: he shrugged and set his sights upon a new girl. 230 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 2: It was Catherine Howard's first time getting her heart broken. 231 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:01,120 Speaker 2: The other ladies in waiting saw her her spend days 232 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:08,679 Speaker 2: crying and ripping up his letters. Luckily, Catherine wouldn't have 233 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:13,320 Speaker 2: to wallow too long in heartbreak. Almost immediately after Anne 234 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:16,919 Speaker 2: of Cleaves arrived in England, Henry the eighth decided that 235 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:19,679 Speaker 2: he didn't care for her and set about trying to 236 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:24,359 Speaker 2: arrange an end to their arranged marriage. In the meantime, 237 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:28,280 Speaker 2: the king began doting on his new brides, very pretty, 238 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:33,920 Speaker 2: very young lady in waiting Katherine Howard. He sent gifts 239 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:38,120 Speaker 2: and gave her land. Everyone saw, including Anne, of Cleaves, 240 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 2: but she hoped it was just an affair. It wasn't. 241 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:45,680 Speaker 2: Henry secured the annulment from Anne of Cleaves within a 242 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:50,720 Speaker 2: few months and married Catherine Howard so quickly afterward that 243 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:55,359 Speaker 2: people assumed that she must be secretly pregnant. In fact, 244 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:59,280 Speaker 2: Henry was just absolutely besought it with his new bride, 245 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:04,240 Speaker 2: who was just sixteen or seventeen years old. Henry was fifty. 246 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 2: They were married the very same day that Henry's former minister, 247 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:14,879 Speaker 2: Thomas Cromwell was executed for securing the disastrous marriage to 248 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:23,920 Speaker 2: Anne of Cleves. The middle aged Henry was so amorous 249 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:27,320 Speaker 2: to Catherine Howard that it almost embarrassed the rest of court. 250 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:30,440 Speaker 2: He didn't take his hands off of her in public, 251 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:35,399 Speaker 2: caressing her almost constantly, to the point where ambassadors noted 252 00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:39,160 Speaker 2: that he had never been this publicly affectionate with any 253 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:43,640 Speaker 2: of his wives to this extent before. Of course, Henry 254 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:46,199 Speaker 2: believed that his young bride was a virgin and that 255 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:48,640 Speaker 2: he was the only man she had ever laid with. 256 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:53,240 Speaker 2: Catherine was so young and so beautiful that she made 257 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 2: Henry feel as though he were back in his prime, 258 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:59,480 Speaker 2: even as it became exceedingly obvious that he was not 259 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 2: pain in his legs from his long troublesome ulcers kept 260 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:08,520 Speaker 2: getting worse. Henry had difficulty with impotence in the bedroom, 261 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:12,960 Speaker 2: even as he made his attraction to Catherine increasingly obvious 262 00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:17,880 Speaker 2: outside the bedroom. Henry's doctors advised him to spend time 263 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:20,920 Speaker 2: away from his new bride so that he could recuperate. 264 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:24,119 Speaker 2: In the meantime, they put him on a weight loss 265 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:28,600 Speaker 2: regimen and wrapped his injured leg in boiled olive leaves 266 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:34,840 Speaker 2: and mirth. Henry's ill health and generally mercurial nature, combined 267 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:38,240 Speaker 2: with his shame at his inability to perform in the bedroom, 268 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:43,199 Speaker 2: meant that he spent most nights away from Catherine. A 269 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 2: year into their marriage, Catherine had no pregnancy to show 270 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 2: for it. Catherine knew full well what happened to queens 271 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:55,119 Speaker 2: who didn't give Henry sons. As her relationship with the 272 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:59,720 Speaker 2: king continued to strain, Catherine began to shut herself away, 273 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:05,199 Speaker 2: unhappy and anxious, refusing to go to dances. Uncertain of 274 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 2: her future position. That summer, strain or not, Catherine was 275 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:14,719 Speaker 2: to accompany Henry on the Northern Progress, a show of 276 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:20,119 Speaker 2: force and majesty to the rebellious northern parts of the country. Catherine, 277 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:23,520 Speaker 2: as the beautiful young Queen, was an essential prop for 278 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 2: the outing, to make Henry look all the more vital 279 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:30,600 Speaker 2: and powerful with her at his side. But Catherine took 280 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:34,040 Speaker 2: ill on the journey, spending days and nights alone in 281 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:37,600 Speaker 2: her room. When the King sent a servant to her 282 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:42,120 Speaker 2: chamber one night, he found it bolted. The queen's ladies 283 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:46,239 Speaker 2: fretted about her listlessness, but they also whispered about the 284 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 2: way she gazed down from her window at Thomas Culpeper, 285 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:54,960 Speaker 2: the young handsome man in the King's entourage, who had 286 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 2: caught her eye from the moment that she had arrived 287 00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:01,120 Speaker 2: at court. The way she looked at him with her 288 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:04,760 Speaker 2: hand cupped in her palm, it was almost like love. 289 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:08,720 Speaker 2: When the trip to the north of the country ended 290 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:11,919 Speaker 2: and they all returned to Hampton Court on October twenty ninth, 291 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:15,359 Speaker 2: Henry gave a speech giving hearty thanks for his good 292 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 2: life with Catherine and his trust in their happy future together. 293 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:28,040 Speaker 2: The very next day everything would fall apart. Do you 294 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:32,679 Speaker 2: remember Mary Lassal's the girl from Catherine's time with the 295 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:38,639 Speaker 2: Dowager Duchess Away from court. Mary Lassell's brother John was 296 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 2: reprimanding her for not being able to secure a position 297 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 2: in the new queen's household. Didn't you two know each other? 298 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 2: John scoffed at her. Mary Lassal's bristled at her brother's derision. Yes, 299 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:55,639 Speaker 2: I knew her. I wouldn't even want to be in 300 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:59,160 Speaker 2: that household under a queen like her. I remember how 301 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:02,359 Speaker 2: she behaved back when she was in the Lambeth. John 302 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:08,280 Speaker 2: paused and asked for more details. Mary Lassal's told him 303 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 2: about Henry Mannox and Francis Dearhan. Everybody knows the queen 304 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:16,240 Speaker 2: wasn't so pure when she married the king, Mary said. 305 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:21,080 Speaker 2: John stopped in his tracks and demanded that Mary tell 306 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 2: him everything she knew, and John Lassal's, a devout Protestant reformer, 307 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:32,639 Speaker 2: went to tell the Archbishop, Thomas Cranmer. Cranmer was in 308 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:37,040 Speaker 2: a delicate position. On one hand, this was just a rumor, 309 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:40,119 Speaker 2: and he didn't want to incur Henry's wrath over nothing. 310 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:44,360 Speaker 2: But on the other hand, if he didn't tell Henry 311 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 2: and somehow word got out, he would be responsible. And 312 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:55,120 Speaker 2: so on November two, in incredibly measured words, Cranmer put 313 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:59,120 Speaker 2: the delicate claims in writing in a letter and left 314 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:05,360 Speaker 2: it on Henry's seat in chapel. Henry was, of course outraged. 315 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:09,479 Speaker 2: He didn't believe the rumors for a moment, but still 316 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 2: he demanded a full investigation. Mannix and Dereham both confessed. 317 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:21,360 Speaker 2: On November sixth, Without telling Catherine, Howard Henry the Eighth 318 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:25,600 Speaker 2: left Hampton Court and rode to Greenwich. She would never 319 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:29,199 Speaker 2: see him again. Once Henry was done with a wife, 320 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:37,119 Speaker 2: he wanted her out of sight. At Greenwich, Henry held 321 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:40,800 Speaker 2: a midnight meeting that lasted for six hours, in which 322 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 2: he and his ministers decided what to do. At one point, 323 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:49,680 Speaker 2: Henry broke down in tears. Why have I had such 324 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 2: bad luck in meeting these ill conditioned women, he cried. 325 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 2: He grabbed a sword. Maybe I should just go and 326 00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:00,800 Speaker 2: kill her myself. However much play measure she had in 327 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:03,160 Speaker 2: her sins, it won't be half as much as her 328 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 2: torture in death. Henry's men subdued him. He really had 329 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 2: been in love, he thought, with his beautiful young fifth wife. 330 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:18,320 Speaker 2: The next day, Catherine knew something was a mess. No 331 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 2: one had told her anything. The investigation had been completely secret, 332 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:25,520 Speaker 2: but Henry was gone and had left no word about 333 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:29,520 Speaker 2: where he was. She could sense something in the air. 334 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:34,680 Speaker 2: When her musicians started to play, she silenced them. It's 335 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:39,159 Speaker 2: no time for dancing, she said. That night she was 336 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:44,840 Speaker 2: brought before Thomas Grandmar where she confessed. Henry showed mercy 337 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:48,160 Speaker 2: enough that Catherine should be spared death and a real 338 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:52,639 Speaker 2: imprisonment in favor of a life of exile at Cyan House. 339 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:59,720 Speaker 2: But then, on November eleventh, under torture, Francis Dieham said 340 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:03,919 Speaker 2: something knew. No, he promised he had never slept with 341 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:06,600 Speaker 2: the Queen while she was married to the king, but 342 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 2: everyone knew Thomas Culpeper did. Now there is no part 343 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:17,399 Speaker 2: evidence to prove that Thomas Culpeper and Catherine actually slept together. 344 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:22,720 Speaker 2: She went to the grave denying it, but soon details 345 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:28,040 Speaker 2: began to emerge. In the spring after her wedding, feeling 346 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:32,600 Speaker 2: distant from Henry and lonely at court, Catherine and Thomas 347 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:38,400 Speaker 2: began exchanging love letters. They sent little gifts back and forth. 348 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:45,000 Speaker 2: Their letters became more and more emotional and personal. I 349 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:47,919 Speaker 2: trust in you that you will always be as you 350 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:53,080 Speaker 2: have promised me, Catherine wrote. She signed the letter yours 351 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:57,959 Speaker 2: as long as life endures, and that summer Culpeper had 352 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:01,240 Speaker 2: been in the large group of courtiers accompanied Henry and 353 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:06,040 Speaker 2: Catherine on the northern progress. Had she really been sick 354 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:10,640 Speaker 2: when she insisted on staying alone in her room? Ladies 355 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:16,360 Speaker 2: were interrogated. Jane Rockford confessed that at one of the stops, 356 00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:22,600 Speaker 2: Culpeper used a secret door that led up backstairs directly 357 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:28,080 Speaker 2: to Queen Catherine's bedchamber. Other ladies were interrogated about whether 358 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:32,760 Speaker 2: Katherine and Culpeper were having an affair. I don't know 359 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:36,320 Speaker 2: for certain, when lady said, I am inclined to believe 360 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:43,440 Speaker 2: the Queen except accept the Archbishop prompted, except the way 361 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:47,239 Speaker 2: she looked at Culpeper from her window. I would have 362 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:50,480 Speaker 2: believed her if I hadn't seen the way she gazed 363 00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:54,800 Speaker 2: at him. Catherine had been in love, and she hadn't 364 00:26:54,840 --> 00:27:07,560 Speaker 2: been able to hide it. Derham was hanged, quartered and disemboweled. Culpepper, 365 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:13,520 Speaker 2: as a gentleman, was simply beheaded. Meanwhile, Catherine waited at 366 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:20,040 Speaker 2: Sion House, knowing her fate would be arriving swiftly. In January. 367 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 2: An act of attainder made it treason for a woman 368 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:27,320 Speaker 2: to marry the king without plain declaration of having previously 369 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 2: lived an unchased life. That was it. The final peace 370 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:35,320 Speaker 2: had been put into place to ensure that Catherine would 371 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:39,800 Speaker 2: receive the death that Henry wanted for her. Anne Boleyn 372 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:42,640 Speaker 2: had been taken to the Tower of London under full 373 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:46,920 Speaker 2: light of day. Katherine had the privilege of arriving at night, 374 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 2: although when the guards arrived at Sion House to take 375 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:53,960 Speaker 2: her to the barge, she collapsed in a fit of panic. 376 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:58,240 Speaker 2: Lucky it was dark during her boat ride down the Thames, 377 00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:01,760 Speaker 2: or else she would have seen the rotting heads of 378 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:07,160 Speaker 2: Francis Dieham and Thomas Culpeper leering down at her from 379 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:12,240 Speaker 2: London Bridge. That night, locked in the Tower of London, 380 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:16,240 Speaker 2: she heard the gates clang shut and the locks on 381 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:20,399 Speaker 2: the doors turn. She was told that she would be 382 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:26,120 Speaker 2: killed two days later. After her final confession, Catherine made 383 00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 2: a request that the guard taken aback couldn't refuse. She 384 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:34,280 Speaker 2: asked for the block that she would be beheaded on 385 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 2: to be brought to her chamber so that she could practice. 386 00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:43,600 Speaker 2: Catherine wanted to at least die with grace or as 387 00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:47,680 Speaker 2: little humiliation as possible, and she had heard stories of 388 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:52,440 Speaker 2: botched executions, including the execution of Thomas Cromwell, on which 389 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 2: it took four or five, even as many as ten 390 00:28:55,840 --> 00:29:01,160 Speaker 2: strokes for the head to fully come off, and so 391 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:07,160 Speaker 2: for hours. On her last day on earth, Katherine Howard 392 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:10,360 Speaker 2: kneeled in her cell at the Tower of London and 393 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:14,240 Speaker 2: raised and lowered her pretty neck on the black block. 394 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:19,200 Speaker 2: When the time finally came and she was escorted to 395 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:22,640 Speaker 2: the very spot where her cousin Anne Boleyn had died 396 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:27,560 Speaker 2: only six years earlier, Catherine knew exactly what to do. 397 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:32,479 Speaker 2: Though she shook, she lowered her head into the valley 398 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:36,880 Speaker 2: of the block with well practiced ease, and the executioner 399 00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:41,400 Speaker 2: took her head off with a single blow. She had 400 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 2: gone from orphan to lady, to queen to dead in 401 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:51,720 Speaker 2: two years. Catherine Howard hadn't yet reached her twenty first birthday. 402 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 2: That's the very short, tragic life of Catherine Howard. Stick 403 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:06,800 Speaker 2: around after a brief sponsor break to hear a little 404 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:20,040 Speaker 2: bit more about the consequences of the investigation of Catherine's infidelity. 405 00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:26,720 Speaker 2: Dearham Culpepper, Jane Rockford, and of course Katherine lost their 406 00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:30,440 Speaker 2: lives in the aftermath of the investigation of Catherine's affairs, 407 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:35,920 Speaker 2: but there are two ladies whose fates fascinate me. During 408 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:39,920 Speaker 2: the course of the investigation, two of Catherine's ladies were 409 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:43,920 Speaker 2: caught gossiping idly about the king. What kind of man 410 00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:44,720 Speaker 2: is this king? 411 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:46,600 Speaker 1: I mean, how many wives will he have? 412 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:51,920 Speaker 2: The two women were jailed for their words, which just 413 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:54,920 Speaker 2: goes to show if I had been alive in Tutor, England, 414 00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:58,040 Speaker 2: with the way that I talk casually to my friends 415 00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:01,560 Speaker 2: about my research for this podcast, things would not have 416 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:05,160 Speaker 2: ended well for me. I also want to offer a 417 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:09,320 Speaker 2: quick note about Catherine Howard's age and her sexual activity. 418 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:14,760 Speaker 2: It's troubling it isn't quite possible to apply our modern 419 00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:18,320 Speaker 2: understanding of the age of consent onto the behavior of 420 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:22,800 Speaker 2: historical figures. In the sixteenth century, five hundred years ago, 421 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:25,320 Speaker 2: a girl was considered a woman as soon as she 422 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:29,000 Speaker 2: began having her period, and a teenager marrying a man 423 00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 2: twice or even three times her age, far from being 424 00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 2: seen as an active abuse or pedophilia, was unfortunately incredibly common. Still, 425 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:43,920 Speaker 2: it's important to understand that these are real people, that 426 00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:48,480 Speaker 2: Catherine was a teenager, and her decision making and experiences 427 00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:53,400 Speaker 2: were those of someone incredibly young. Personally, I find it 428 00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:57,640 Speaker 2: most helpful. Not to make broad declarations about Catherine as 429 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:01,200 Speaker 2: a villain or a victim, but just to do my 430 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:05,160 Speaker 2: best to try to understand her with the most empathy 431 00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:06,240 Speaker 2: I possibly can. 432 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:15,320 Speaker 1: Noble Blood is a production of iHeart Radio and Grim 433 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:18,920 Speaker 1: and Mild from Aaron Mankey. Noble Blood is hosted by 434 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:24,520 Speaker 1: me Dana Schwartz, with additional writing and research by Hannah Johnston, Hannahswick, 435 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:28,800 Speaker 1: Courtney Sender, Amy Hit and Julia Milaney. The show is 436 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:33,920 Speaker 1: edited and produced by Jesse Funk, with supervising producer rima 437 00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:38,600 Speaker 1: Ill Kali and executive producers Aaron Manke, Trevor Young, and 438 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:44,200 Speaker 1: Matt Frederick. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 439 00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:49,120 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.