Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your guide to
Speaker 1: the whitetail woods, presented by First Light, creating proven versatile
Speaker 1: hunting apparel for the stand, saddle or blind. First Light
Speaker 1: Go Farther, Stay Longer, and now your host, Mark Kenyon.
Speaker 2: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. This week on
Speaker 2: the show, I'm joined by Nick Pennzoto and Matt Ross
Speaker 2: of the National Deer Association to discuss the state of
Speaker 2: the whitetail Union in twenty twenty five. All right, welcome
Speaker 2: back to the Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you
Speaker 2: by First Light and their Camo for Conservation initiative, and
Speaker 2: today we are kicking off our Conservation Month. We do
Speaker 2: this every year for about one month worth of episodes.
Speaker 2: We specifically focus on conservation related issue that are relevant
Speaker 2: to deer hunters and outdoors people of all stripes, and
Speaker 2: we're kicking it off here today with another one of
Speaker 2: our annual traditions. I guess you could call it the
Speaker 2: State of the Whitetail Union. I'm joined with representatives from
Speaker 2: the National Deer Association, the President and CEO, Nick Pennzoto
Speaker 2: and the Director of Conservation mister Matt Ross. Both of
Speaker 2: them have been on the show in the past, they
Speaker 2: are friends of the show. They are terrific. Terrific is
Speaker 2: the word I'm looking for. Terrific representatives of the hunting community,
Speaker 2: and both have just a wealth of experience and information
Speaker 2: to share with us when it comes to this set
Speaker 2: of issues and what we're going to be talking about
Speaker 2: and what at least is going to lead us off
Speaker 2: is the Deer Report, which is a document that the
Speaker 2: NBA publishes every year that kind of reviews the state
Speaker 2: of deer across the country. It looks at the latest
Speaker 2: data from state fishing game departments, giving us insight into,
Speaker 2: you know, deer harvest trends, the numbers of deer being killed,
Speaker 2: all sorts of things related to you know, what types
Speaker 2: of weapons are you used, how many bucks, how many
Speaker 2: dos aide structure, bon recruitment, a lot of important herd
Speaker 2: related data, as well as covering some of the latest issues, trends,
Speaker 2: current events, different things impacting deer, deer habitat, and deer
Speaker 2: hunting in the future. So we get a review of
Speaker 2: all that kind of stuff, We get the headlines of
Speaker 2: that most recent report, and then maybe the most interesting
Speaker 2: part of this at least from my perspective, was the
Speaker 2: conversation that Nick and Matt and I have around what
Speaker 2: the future of deer hunting, you know, what that might
Speaker 2: look like over the next ten twenty thirty years. What
Speaker 2: could we as hunters have as a role in the future.
Speaker 2: What are our obligations, what are opportunities, what are the threats?
Speaker 2: What are these major things that we need to be
Speaker 2: keeping tabs on to make sure that you know, these
Speaker 2: aren't the good old days of deer hunting that someday
Speaker 2: they're looking back on and wishing they had. Hopefully things
Speaker 2: continue to get better and better, right, And that's what
Speaker 2: we talk about here today, taking a clear look at
Speaker 2: where we stand as a deer hunting community in twenty
Speaker 2: twenty five and where are we going. So we've got
Speaker 2: a lot to come on this on this series over
Speaker 2: the next month, we're going to talk about deer related issues.
Speaker 2: We're going to talk about public land related issues. We're
Speaker 2: going to be talking about ways that we can make
Speaker 2: you know, issues around nature and the environment and wildlife
Speaker 2: and public lands, how we can make all of that
Speaker 2: more bipartisan. I think that's really important these days as
Speaker 2: things seem to be getting more and more ugly with
Speaker 2: this party against party fighting. I hate to see that
Speaker 2: splitting the outdoor community or pitting different groups against each
Speaker 2: other when really, for many of us, we just love
Speaker 2: this stuff. We love deer, we love deer hunting, we
Speaker 2: love wild places, wildlife, the opportunities to hunt, the opportunity
Speaker 2: to have public landscapes to recreate on. That stuff really matters.
Speaker 2: We can be a part of keeping that stuff around
Speaker 2: well into the future, and so this month we'll be
Speaker 2: covering exactly how we can do that. So, without any
Speaker 2: further ado, the first episode of our Conservation Month series,
Speaker 2: my chat with Nick Penzoto and Matt Ross from the
Speaker 2: National Deer Association as we discuss the state of the
Speaker 2: white tail Union. All right with me now this Monday morning,
Speaker 2: I am joined by Nick Penzoto and Matt Ross from
Speaker 2: the NDA. Thank you, gentlemen for chatting with me today.
Speaker 3: Thanks for having us, Mark Greait to be here.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, it's always it's always great to have an excuse
Speaker 2: to catch up with the two of you, and we've
Speaker 2: got a good one here today because this is an
Speaker 2: annual check in that we've had for a long time
Speaker 2: running now, but a little bit different because usually it's
Speaker 2: myself and Kip here for the usual State of the
Speaker 2: White Tail Union. But we kicked Kip to the curb
Speaker 2: this year because he was just on the show like
Speaker 2: a month month and a half ago, and I didn't
Speaker 2: want to bother him again so quickly, so I thought
Speaker 2: I'd pull in top Dog at the NDA and you,
Speaker 2: mister Ross, to have a good chat here. So there's
Speaker 2: a couple of things I'm hoping to achieve. Number One,
Speaker 2: I'd love to cover some of the headlines of the
Speaker 2: Deer Report that came out this year in twenty twenty five,
Speaker 2: get a sense of some of the most important trends
Speaker 2: and issues and numbers when it comes to deer and
Speaker 2: deer hunting. And then I also want to look forward,
Speaker 2: kind of take a glance into the future, especially since
Speaker 2: we have you here with us, Nick, to see what's
Speaker 2: on your mind and what's on the organization's mind when
Speaker 2: it comes to the future of deer and deer hunting
Speaker 2: and our role in the you know, in the conservation community.
Speaker 2: I guess. So that's kind of our gen to the
Speaker 2: itinerary here and maybe I'll throw it to you first,
Speaker 2: Mass since I know you you get to be kind
Speaker 2: of involved in a lot of the Deer Report things
Speaker 2: and pulling this data and putting together this thing every
Speaker 2: year with Kip. When you look at the twenty twenty
Speaker 2: five Deer Report, what stands up to you as as
Speaker 2: issue number one or data point number one that was
Speaker 2: most interesting to you?
Speaker 4: You know, I've been thinking about that being the first
Speaker 4: time kind of doing the state of the Union on deer.
Speaker 4: There's certainly some headwinds and obstacles that we focus on,
Speaker 4: and it's it's really easy to think about that, and
Speaker 4: I'm sure we're going to get into some of the issues,
Speaker 4: but kind of big picture, you know for folks if
Speaker 4: you hadn't read the report or if you don't follow
Speaker 4: what we do with that, and it's a it's a
Speaker 4: team effort. So like basically our entire company is working
Speaker 4: on that. I I think we are in a really
Speaker 4: good place today. You know, there's looking forward, there's some concerns,
Speaker 4: but if hunters don't recognize, you know, the North American
Speaker 4: Deer Hunter is at a pretty good spot right now.
Speaker 4: We're shooting a lot of deer, like record number of deer,
Speaker 4: and the h structure is excellent. It's like one of
Speaker 4: the best we've ever had. And so when you think
Speaker 4: about deer hunting, obviously a lot of us think about
Speaker 4: what we accomplished in the past season or in the
Speaker 4: last couple of seasons. But by and large, nationally, we're
Speaker 4: in an awesome place and deer hunters are reaping the
Speaker 4: benefits on some really amazing you know, demographics when it
Speaker 4: comes to deer hunting and the composition of those deer
Speaker 4: that we're killing. So we should pat ourselves on a back.
Speaker 4: We should be excited that things are so good right now.
Speaker 4: You know, we do need to look forward. We have
Speaker 4: to pay attention to the things that are coming towards us.
Speaker 4: That's what we do here at the National Deer Association.
Speaker 4: I know that you provide that platform for us to
Speaker 4: talk about it, and those things are important, but they
Speaker 4: shouldn't take away that we should celebrate how well things
Speaker 4: are going right now in the big picture. That's kind
Speaker 4: of what I think of. You know, we're shooting record
Speaker 4: number of bucks in terms of total numbers, and then
Speaker 4: the eight structor is amazing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so what are we at as far as I
Speaker 2: think we're right at the record for most three and
Speaker 2: a half plus zero bucks shot, right, we've kind of stabilized,
Speaker 2: right in that's it's almost almost a third of the
Speaker 2: bucks harveston now average across the nation are three and
Speaker 2: a half plus, right, something like that.
Speaker 4: It was a record last dear season. So the twenty
Speaker 4: twenty five Deer Report uses data from the most recent
Speaker 4: when we published it, which comes out, you know, a
Speaker 4: month and a half ago or two months ago. At
Speaker 4: this point, seasons were still open. So it's for the
Speaker 4: twenty twenty three twenty twenty four deer season, and that year,
Speaker 4: for that season, we killed forty let me try to
Speaker 4: think about it. I think it was forty three percent,
Speaker 4: which was a record. In terms of eighth structure, we
Speaker 4: killed about twenty six percent of that buck harvest was yearlings,
Speaker 4: so much more three and a half year old plus.
Speaker 4: And in terms of total number of bucks killed that season,
Speaker 4: it was forty three percent of three and a half
Speaker 4: or older. We killed over three million bucks, which has
Speaker 4: only happened in terms of a total buck harvest three
Speaker 4: times since since two thousand and seven. Two thousand and
Speaker 4: seven was the most we've ever killed, but you know,
Speaker 4: it was it was close to the record. Last the
Speaker 4: last full deer season so lots of bucks. Forty three
Speaker 4: percent of them were three and a half or older
Speaker 4: and only twenty six percent we're one and a half
Speaker 4: year olds.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's incredible and what a wild change with There's
Speaker 2: a chart in the report that shows that trend for
Speaker 2: the year and a half harvest, which used to be,
Speaker 2: you know, the vast majority of deer killed were a
Speaker 2: year and a half old bucks, and that has just
Speaker 2: plummeted over the years to you know, the reverse, which
Speaker 2: is great for the deer herd. Right, Nick, what's your
Speaker 2: take on all that? And when you look at these
Speaker 2: data points, what does that tell you?
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I'll take a little bit of a different
Speaker 3: I guess the reverse angle view and what Matt just said,
Speaker 3: And it's interesting. We are shooting record numbers of deer
Speaker 3: and so this will sound like I'm talking out of
Speaker 3: both sides of my mouth, but we're not shooting enough deer.
Speaker 3: And when I say enough deer, the biggest one is antler.
Speaker 2: This deer.
Speaker 3: And you can see the trends you mentioned charts in
Speaker 3: the report. If you're someone who doesn't like to really
Speaker 3: read and you just like to look at pictures, we
Speaker 3: put a lot of them in the report. Check out
Speaker 3: the chart where you can see doe harvest over the
Speaker 3: decade since we've been doing this report, and you can see,
Speaker 3: you know, in the earliest days of the report and
Speaker 3: back in the earliest days of the Quality Deer Management Association,
Speaker 3: there was a huge emphasis on shooting ant list deer.
Speaker 3: I remember it as a young hunter, you know, I
Speaker 3: used to I remember the days we used to had
Speaker 3: to get in a lottery to get one antler list
Speaker 3: deer tag here in Pennsylvania, and the idea of shooting
Speaker 3: more just seemed crazy to me. But we became educated
Speaker 3: as hunters about that. But then what happened was this
Speaker 3: is sort of a maybe an unintended consequence, because people
Speaker 3: do enjoy chasing those older age class bucks. You start
Speaker 3: to hear the rationale of things like, well, the big
Speaker 3: one was probably right behind her, so I didn't want
Speaker 3: to shoot the dough or I didn't shoot them early,
Speaker 3: and I didn't want to shoot him during the rut.
Speaker 3: And then winter comes and the holidays come, and everybody
Speaker 3: gets fat and tired and they don't want to go
Speaker 3: back out in the woods, and so the next thing
Speaker 3: you know, they may have three or four ant list
Speaker 3: tags and they've maybe filled one of them, and so
Speaker 3: I think that's another big part of this. We are
Speaker 3: killing record numbers of deer, record numbers of bucks in particular,
Speaker 3: but we need to shoot more antler lists here for
Speaker 3: a lot of reasons, everything ranging from habitat the disease
Speaker 3: management to frankly, being a good neighbor and helping feed
Speaker 3: people out there. We have a lot of hungry people
Speaker 3: in the country and so hunters can provide There's no
Speaker 3: better story you can tell as a hunter than that
Speaker 3: you helped somebody put some food on their table while
Speaker 3: also providing a conservation service. So yeah, I mean it's
Speaker 3: it's sort of the best of times and the not
Speaker 3: so best of times, depending on how you look at it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'll come on that. That is certainly one of
Speaker 4: the headwinds. And I know that you mentioned Ki being
Speaker 4: on the podcast recently and that was the topic of
Speaker 4: that podcast. That's a big deal and I know I
Speaker 4: would like to talk about that and hunters can do
Speaker 4: it that we can fix the composition of what we're shooting.
Speaker 4: We did it before and if you look at that
Speaker 4: chart that we published that shows the reversal of not
Speaker 4: only h structure. But we have another one that shows
Speaker 4: numbers of bucks and dolls being shot. From two thousand
Speaker 4: ish to twenty fifteen, we were shooting anywhere between five
Speaker 4: and thirty percent more doze or ant list deer than
Speaker 4: we were bucks, and that changed around twenty fifteen. In
Speaker 4: the basically the last decade, we've been shooting about the
Speaker 4: same number of bucks and does or less doze than bucks.
Speaker 4: As Nick just said, that's something that is an easy
Speaker 4: I say easy, but it's it's something we can change.
Speaker 4: We can shift that. But you know, it's good to
Speaker 4: celebrate too, And where I started starting on a positive
Speaker 4: right and paying attention to look at the things that
Speaker 4: if hunters want to think about. You know, both sides
Speaker 4: are our mouth talking about good and bad. There are
Speaker 4: some great things happening right now. There's some bad things
Speaker 4: that I know we'll talk about that we can't control,
Speaker 4: and there's little parts of that we can control, like disease.
Speaker 4: But in terms of the composition of how many dos
Speaker 4: versus bucks being shot, that's something hunters can change, and
Speaker 4: we can change it in a season or two. We
Speaker 4: just need to educate ourselves about the importance of it.
Speaker 4: But you know, by and large, I think hunters are
Speaker 4: enjoying some really good things that are happening. And certainly
Speaker 4: the number of mature bucks out there is important, not
Speaker 4: not to everybody, but it's an important thing and it
Speaker 4: gets people to sit a little bit longer, maybe spend
Speaker 4: a little bit extra money on that gear, which helps everything.
Speaker 4: And that's that's one of the things that I look
Speaker 4: at when I look at the Deer Report is that
Speaker 4: things are great in some ways.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I think I think an interesting thing to
Speaker 2: consider here is the fact that you know, to large degree,
Speaker 2: the QTMA and everyone who followed the best practices and
Speaker 2: management objectives and ideas that you guys shared over the
Speaker 2: last twenty thirty years, they influenced a dramatic behavior shift
Speaker 2: over this time period, Right, And I think one of
Speaker 2: the keys to that behavior shift, and the key to
Speaker 2: any kind of behavior shift related to any issue oftentimes,
Speaker 2: is looking at what are the incentives, Like, how do
Speaker 2: you line up what we want to have happened with
Speaker 2: you know, the incentives that this user base has. How
Speaker 2: do we make sure it lines up with the things
Speaker 2: they care about and helps them achieve their goals? Right?
Speaker 2: And I think when we looked at age structure of
Speaker 2: buck harvest. That was a big one, right, and we said, hey,
Speaker 2: here's something that if we change, if we go from
Speaker 2: killing mostly year and a half old bucks to instead
Speaker 2: trying to manage more towards an even age class and
Speaker 2: an older age class, here's how that's going to benefit
Speaker 2: you. You're going to have all of these different benefits to
Speaker 2: the deer herd, to the deer hunting experience, to the habitat,
Speaker 2: all of these other things, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 2: And that led to people realizing, oh, hey, if I
Speaker 2: do this, it's going to lead to me having a
Speaker 2: lot more fun and seeing big and having these great
Speaker 2: encounters and seeing running behavior that I never saw before.
Speaker 2: And because it clearly benefited the hunter, they made these changes.
Speaker 2: When it comes to the antler lists harvest issue, I
Speaker 2: think some people are not there's not as clear of
Speaker 2: a connection, or people aren't seeing that as clearly. It's
Speaker 2: very obvious that if I don't shoot that year and
Speaker 2: a half old buck and I give it two more years,
Speaker 2: I'm going to see him again as a three and
Speaker 2: a half year old and he's bigger, and I like that.
Speaker 2: It's a little bit harder for someone to go out
Speaker 2: there and not kill a bunch of does this year
Speaker 2: and then think to himself, Oh, that's going to damage
Speaker 2: my hunting in the future. If anything, the opposite seems
Speaker 2: to sometimes make common sense. If I don't kill a
Speaker 2: bunch of doughs, if I keep the dos around, that
Speaker 2: should bring in the bucks. Or I want to see
Speaker 2: a lot of deer because a lot of deer makes
Speaker 2: my deer hunting a lot of fun. So yeah, why
Speaker 2: would I want to kill all the does? That seems
Speaker 2: to be a continued challenge for a lot of people
Speaker 2: get excited about doing that when they think it might
Speaker 2: actually negatively impact their experience in some kind of ways.
Speaker 2: Can can either one of you, whoever's whoever wants to
Speaker 2: jump in first on this one, tackle that a little bit?
Speaker 2: Can we? And we did this with Kip. We've talked
Speaker 2: about it year after a year for a number of
Speaker 2: years now, but it seems like it's not something that
Speaker 2: we can step away from yet. Can Can someone speak
Speaker 2: a little bit about how this will improve our hunting experience,
Speaker 2: improve our habitat for better deer hunting in the future.
Speaker 2: If we prioritize this. So let's clearly make the connection
Speaker 2: between being more aggressive with dough harvest and how that
Speaker 2: equals better deer hunting and a better deer hunting experience. Nick,
Speaker 2: maybe I'll let you tackle that because you look primed.
Speaker 2: I see you as you were talking.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I wanted to. It's like a bird dog.
Speaker 3: It just couldn't hold my point.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So it's it's like the person that was out of
Speaker 3: shape and they worked really hard and they got in
Speaker 3: shape and it was great, and they know exactly how
Speaker 3: they got in shape, and then they took their foot
Speaker 3: off the gas a little bit, and now like, yeah,
Speaker 3: a couple of years ago by, and they haven't really
Speaker 3: done the things that got them to where they were
Speaker 3: needed to be, and they'll take a look in the
Speaker 3: mirror and their clothes don't fit as well, and they're like, well,
Speaker 3: what the heck happened? And so I know deep down
Speaker 3: what happened, and so it's just coming back to reality.
Speaker 3: So I think it's two things. I think it's the
Speaker 3: group that came up through and these are people my age,
Speaker 3: by the way, and Matt's not much younger than I am,
Speaker 3: and you're the young guy in the group, Mark, But
Speaker 3: we were, as we were emerging as very dedicated hard hunters,
Speaker 3: we were being brought up in this approach that you
Speaker 3: need to shoot more dos, and so we learned what
Speaker 3: it took to get in shape, okay, deer shape. And
Speaker 3: then seeing is believing. When we started. It's one thing
Speaker 3: to talk about seeing mature deer, but it's another thing
Speaker 3: to start seeing them when you've never really seen them.
Speaker 3: People used to think they saw a big buck, right,
Speaker 3: and it was like a two year old that just
Speaker 3: happened to somehow survived the previous season. When they see
Speaker 3: their first three or four year old, it's like, man,
Speaker 3: the light goes on like that is not even the
Speaker 3: same animal. And that's whenever people started to catch on that, like, okay,
Speaker 3: this is worth a pound of flesh here. We need
Speaker 3: to do a B and C if we want d
Speaker 3: to happen. And so I think our group has taken
Speaker 3: our foot off the gas a little bit. We're like, ah,
Speaker 3: we shot a bunch of dos. Now I just want
Speaker 3: to wait out because we got addicted to shooting big bucks,
Speaker 3: which doing who wouldn't. I don't blame people for that.
Speaker 3: And then the group following behind them sort of already
Speaker 3: grew up with nice deer. Okay, they kind of got
Speaker 3: to skip the part where like Matt and I both
Speaker 3: have a big box in our basements of eighteen month
Speaker 3: old bucks that we shot and we were kids, right,
Speaker 3: they don't have those. They've only known big deer and
Speaker 3: they don't remember what it took to get there. So
Speaker 3: it's like basically being born and being in shape and
Speaker 3: being an Olympic athlete. They skipped all the steps that
Speaker 3: it takes to get there, and so I think we
Speaker 3: have to sort of re educate again and have people understand.
Speaker 3: I mean, I can tell you this. The year previous
Speaker 3: to this, I didn't shoot as many doughs on my
Speaker 3: land as I wanted to, and it come back to
Speaker 3: bite me this year in buck season because you couldn't
Speaker 3: see a mature buck if it wasn't on camera or
Speaker 3: moving at night, because they didn't have to go anywhere.
Speaker 3: There were too many dos. Even just one or two
Speaker 3: extra doughs in an area can dramatically impact your chances
Speaker 3: of seeing a mature deer. As soon as that mature
Speaker 3: deer finds a dough that he connects with, he's going
Speaker 3: to take her to cover and he's not going to
Speaker 3: move for two or three days, and if he doesn't
Speaker 3: have to go far to find the next one, he's
Speaker 3: going to do the very same thing. And so Mark,
Speaker 3: you've had you know, so many people over the years
Speaker 3: on your show and people that listen. You know, I
Speaker 3: hear you and Tony talk about it all the time.
Speaker 3: You can be in the prime, but first ten days
Speaker 3: in November and go nine of those days without seeing
Speaker 3: a buck, the more does you have, the more likely
Speaker 3: that's going to be. So we have to re educate
Speaker 3: people on those points.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Matt, would you add anything on that front.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a couple things. I was thinking. You know,
Speaker 4: there's the why it happened, and you know that the
Speaker 4: last decade or so, I think Nick's right, there's there's
Speaker 4: more opportunity at more mature bucks. And so people are
Speaker 4: limited on their time, right and twenty five thirty five
Speaker 4: years ago they were limited on their time, and as well,
Speaker 4: you know time time doesn't change, but there's just more
Speaker 4: opportunity at more mature buck. So there's that part of
Speaker 4: the why is just the first year they see maybe
Speaker 4: a mature buck or the third year they see or
Speaker 4: something because there's more of them. I think also people
Speaker 4: are a little bit gun shy literally and figuratively because
Speaker 4: there were some shifts ten years ago in terms of
Speaker 4: some issues happening, and people backed off on shooting dos,
Speaker 4: and we just haven't pushed hard to get them to
Speaker 4: do that. From the benefits standpoint, to answer your question
Speaker 4: at a personal level, and then also at the you
Speaker 4: know the system level, at the you know what's good
Speaker 4: for the herd, what's good for the environment, there's both
Speaker 4: of those things. You know. I make it a personal
Speaker 4: responsibility on myself to shoot dose because I know it
Speaker 4: achieves success for both of those things. It will make
Speaker 4: my hunting better. And it's hard to say that when
Speaker 4: a few minutes ago I just told people how great
Speaker 4: things are on the h structure side. But it is
Speaker 4: a it's a moving target every year. And if you
Speaker 4: aren't shooting at least in most in most places in
Speaker 4: the country, unless it's low productive you know, areas extreme North,
Speaker 4: extreme South, drought, laid in heavy winters, those kinds of things.
Speaker 4: But for most hunters, like nine out of ten hunters,
Speaker 4: you should be shooting at least a dough for every
Speaker 4: buck that you take on a property or in a
Speaker 4: county and that will keep things balanced. And if you
Speaker 4: don't do that, the heyday that we're enjoying right now
Speaker 4: will go backwards. And so that that's really that's a
Speaker 4: real risk. I mean, for the past seven years, five
Speaker 4: of the last seven years we've shot more bucks than
Speaker 4: does nationally. It doesn't take that many years. We will
Speaker 4: start seeing a shift. And I if we don't change
Speaker 4: it from a hunter perspective and start shooting more, does
Speaker 4: that forty three percent of mature bucks in the harvest
Speaker 4: will start dropping and the you'll start seeing the change
Speaker 4: in it. I mean, that's that is going to happen.
Speaker 4: I can you know, mark my words. So we need
Speaker 4: to start shooting dose And there's those benefits at the
Speaker 4: at the property level and for the person. But then
Speaker 4: it's also you know, at the system level, we have
Speaker 4: to balance deer herds. That's what hunters do. We can
Speaker 4: provide food to other people, there's the benefit of that too,
Speaker 4: But if we are not managing deer, I mean, Kip
Speaker 4: Adams says this. You know, hunting is not our right,
Speaker 4: it's a privilege, it is, and if we are not
Speaker 4: managing deer herds hunters would become obsolete and there's going
Speaker 4: to be another way that we have to manage deer.
Speaker 4: And so I mean not to get super serious about it,
Speaker 4: but hunters got to wake up and we have to
Speaker 4: start shooting more dos, and we need to start doing
Speaker 4: it soon. Didn't want to start the podcast that way,
Speaker 4: but honestly, we do need to and you will feel
Speaker 4: it personally and we'll see it at a system level
Speaker 4: too if we don't. And so, you know, five out
Speaker 4: of the last seven years, shooting more bucks and dos
Speaker 4: is not a good thing. But that's the thing that
Speaker 4: I was saying earlier that I know that's a thing
Speaker 4: that we can fix. CWD you hopefully will fix, and
Speaker 4: I'm sure we'll talk about that, but that's something that's
Speaker 4: unachievable to most hunters. But all you have to do
Speaker 4: is decide to shoot a doe because they're out there
Speaker 4: just as much as they are are buck. So hunters
Speaker 4: can fix that. We can start shooting dose. I know
Speaker 4: we can.
Speaker 2: We've done it before, and I feel like for a
Speaker 2: lot of years, when we have looked at what's the
Speaker 2: existential threat to deer hunting in the future, for a
Speaker 2: lot of years. It's we've looked at disease as being
Speaker 2: you know that that boogieyman, that that very serious concerning
Speaker 2: red flag issue. But am I wrong to start the
Speaker 2: vibe shift for me? Or at least when I'm looking
Speaker 2: at things and hearing about things, and looking at data
Speaker 2: and looking at the way things are trending and bigger
Speaker 2: picture system level questions like you're talking about, Matt, I'm
Speaker 2: starting to feel more and more like antler list harvest
Speaker 2: and deer numbers are increasingly becoming that big red flag issue.
Speaker 2: There's a data point in the report that showed that
Speaker 2: I think the number was that in the last five years,
Speaker 2: deer depredation tags have gone up fifty eight percent. So
Speaker 2: we're seeing deer management increasingly being outsoured to other methods
Speaker 2: other than traditional deer hunting to manage that issue. We're seeing,
Speaker 2: you know, over the last ten years, more and more
Speaker 2: communities looking at alternative approaches to managing deer herds, sterilization, sharpshooting,
Speaker 2: things like that. You know, our state deer manager here
Speaker 2: in Michigan basically is pleading with the hunters of Michigan
Speaker 2: to please start killing more analysts deer because if we
Speaker 2: don't do it, we will lose our management privilege as
Speaker 2: deer hunters. It sure felt like an existential threat coming
Speaker 2: from him emailing the entire state hunting populations saying we
Speaker 2: need you to start killing more does otherwise we will
Speaker 2: not be able to have that opportunity as hunters because
Speaker 2: other means will be pulled in. Am I wrong when
Speaker 2: I start feeling like this is the issue? Now?
Speaker 4: Well, no, there's a couple of reasons why it is
Speaker 4: the issue. It's related to disease. You know, chronic wasting
Speaker 4: disease is spreading. It's in thirty six states now. Prevalence
Speaker 4: rates are getting to the point in some places where
Speaker 4: it's been the longest where we're seeing population effects and
Speaker 4: having too many deer is a major major problem with that.
Speaker 4: Related to that though, and you know I just said this,
Speaker 4: We can write the ship on that. Hunters have control
Speaker 4: over that. We just have to be inspired and educated
Speaker 4: to do so. And so it's it's it becomes the
Speaker 4: lowest hole in the bucket because you can see it
Speaker 4: change quickly. You know, along those lines. There's not just
Speaker 4: one data point in the deer report. I actually just
Speaker 4: give a presentation about ant Lilis's harvest issues across the country.
Speaker 4: It's not only depredation permits, but we're seeing faun recruitment
Speaker 4: rates nationally drop, which means that deer actually producing more
Speaker 4: of or sorry, producing less of themselves because deer densities
Speaker 4: are getting to the point where faun recruitment is low,
Speaker 4: which fun recruitment is a measure of how many deer
Speaker 4: recruit did into the population. That's a sign. You know,
Speaker 4: there's more than that. I can dive into all the
Speaker 4: points if you want, but it's become the topic because
Speaker 4: more seats are dealing with it, and it is related
Speaker 4: to some of these other things. And I'm sure Nick
Speaker 4: has some views on that as well, but I think
Speaker 4: that's why we're talking about as much as we are.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'll throw on one other thing on top
Speaker 2: of that before I toss it to you, Nick. This
Speaker 2: idea of bringing back market hunting to try to incentivize
Speaker 2: people to kill deer. That's the thing that keeps popping up.
Speaker 2: Just a handful of weeks ago, I heard about Indiana,
Speaker 2: someone in Indiana, a legislator proposing that possibly, so there's
Speaker 2: another huge threat to the North American model of wildlife
Speaker 2: conservation and everything we've achieved here in America, because again,
Speaker 2: if we aren't managing deer herds, there's all these other
Speaker 2: trickle down effects that that has on people who aren't
Speaker 2: deer hunters, who are going to say, hey, we need
Speaker 2: to deal with this deer hunting thing. And if that
Speaker 2: means putting some dollars on top of it to get
Speaker 2: these deer killed, or giving depredation tags to anyone, or
Speaker 2: hiring sharp shooters, yeah, sure, go for it. We don't
Speaker 2: care about deer hunters. We just want this deer gone.
Speaker 2: That's what's at risk if we don't handle our own
Speaker 2: business ourselves. So Nick would like to add anything on them.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I appreciate you teaming up on that one, you
Speaker 3: being on our board. Mark just got an email for
Speaker 3: me about a week and a half ago saying we're
Speaker 3: looking for some help from the board to work on
Speaker 3: some of our position statements, and one of those position
Speaker 3: statements is the sale of wild Venison. I never had hoped,
Speaker 3: ever I've been here over nine years now, believe it
Speaker 3: or not, that I think we'd be having meetings about
Speaker 3: positions on the sale of wild Venicon. I just thought
Speaker 3: that was always a protected thing. And so yeah, it's
Speaker 3: not just Indiana. Other places in New England and other
Speaker 3: places are starting to put out feelers about what it
Speaker 3: might look like to allow hunters to sell venison. And
Speaker 3: so you know, we're not just this is not a
Speaker 3: scare tactic to get listeners to say, oh, they're just
Speaker 3: you know, trying to raise our hackles here. This is reality.
Speaker 3: We're having meetings about it at the NDA. We're having
Speaker 3: meetings about our focus really being shifted toward antlerless harvest
Speaker 3: for the reasons we talked about. That's not to say
Speaker 3: we still don't care about good age classes and bucks
Speaker 3: and mature deer and habitat. If you follow all of
Speaker 3: our stuff, you see that it's all still very much there.
Speaker 3: We care about it. I just personally posted a habitat
Speaker 3: video from yesterday running a chainsaw Ali day. Okay, so
Speaker 3: we still care about that. But good habitat also is
Speaker 3: an important disease control as well, because the better habitat
Speaker 3: you have, the less congregated deer have to be, and
Speaker 3: so it all goes hand in hand. And that's what
Speaker 3: we're about at the NDA is sort of teaching that
Speaker 3: comprehensive style of management that's good for all the things
Speaker 3: from hunting all the way down to herd management, habitat management,
Speaker 3: management of other species. And so, yeah, we're concerned about
Speaker 3: those things. We're not just making them up. We wish
Speaker 3: we didn't have to talk about them, but these are
Speaker 3: conversations that we're having, you know, sort of a behind
Speaker 3: the scenes look at the NDA. We're having these conversations
Speaker 3: about how do we make sure people understand our position
Speaker 3: is we don't support the sale of wild benison.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, A lot to tackle then, and we haven't
Speaker 2: even really I guess, Matt, you alluded to it a
Speaker 2: little bit. But I'm increasingly seeing papers or articles exploring,
Speaker 2: you know, threats to biodiversity and whitetail deer being pointed
Speaker 2: to as one of the major threats against biodiversity. So,
Speaker 2: because of the overpopulation of white tail deer and their
Speaker 2: impacts on habitat, it's negatively influencing other species. What a
Speaker 2: crazy thing to think about when we as deer hunters
Speaker 2: who consider ourselves tremendous conservationists and people that really care
Speaker 2: about the natural world, when the thing that we care
Speaker 2: about so much is negatively impacting the rest of the
Speaker 2: thing we care so much about. That's not a good thing,
Speaker 2: and it's also not good for the future of this resource.
Speaker 2: If you have the conservation community split where you have
Speaker 2: the deer hunting world saying hey, we want lots of
Speaker 2: deer and we want great deer hunting, and then you
Speaker 2: have other folks who care about the natural world saying, well, yeah,
Speaker 2: but there's so many deer it's negatively impacting the habitat
Speaker 2: for all these other critters. And we don't want that happening.
Speaker 2: Either we're losing allies there or possibly losing our opportunities,
Speaker 2: as we've already discussed. So we need to take care
Speaker 2: of our own business. We need to right. We got
Speaker 2: to clean our bedroom right before we can worry about
Speaker 2: all that other stuff. And that seems, like you said, Matt,
Speaker 2: the great thing about the antler list issue and the
Speaker 2: deer population issue is that the connection between problem and
Speaker 2: solution is so clear and so actionable and so much
Speaker 2: within our hands. While disease some times feels like golly like,
Speaker 2: CWD is one of those deals where it seems so
Speaker 2: much more challenging to wrap your head around, how do
Speaker 2: we you know, how do we really fix us? In
Speaker 2: the long term, so so so yeah, like you said, Matt,
Speaker 2: I hate to hate to start on a downer on
Speaker 2: that front, but since we are, let's keep on rolling
Speaker 2: with downers. The natural transition is to disease and that
Speaker 2: has been a major issue we've talked about over the years. Nick,
Speaker 2: can you update us a little bit on where we
Speaker 2: stand with CWD? Is the is the is the concern
Speaker 2: level at the same place it has been in recent years.
Speaker 2: Are we trending positively or negatively? Where we at? Real quick?
Speaker 3: I do want to say it's not a complete downer
Speaker 3: to shoot more antlers there. I mean, it's a heck
Speaker 3: of a lot of fun. Yeah, we have more opportunities
Speaker 3: and tags than ever. Matt and I we walked the
Speaker 3: walk and we were I think I shot the most
Speaker 3: doze in the NBA team. Matt was right there Cole
Speaker 3: out in Missouri. So we actually are trying to develop
Speaker 3: contests and things even within our team because it's so
Speaker 3: much fun too. So it's not the end of the world.
Speaker 3: So yeah, I just want to say that, yeah CWD,
Speaker 3: then I go right right to the end of the world, right, Okay,
Speaker 3: So yeah, we're as Mad had said, we're in thirty
Speaker 3: six states now, recently out of Georgia, uh, seeing in
Speaker 3: some seeing it pop up in some other states where
Speaker 3: it hadn't been before. Yeah, I mean, it's it's out there.
Speaker 3: It's obviously we can't deny the fact that it's growing
Speaker 3: and spreading in different areas in the country. There are
Speaker 3: some really what I would call, you know, white hot
Speaker 3: fires of CWD in a few places in the in
Speaker 3: the country. Obviously some areas in Wisconsin. We have in
Speaker 3: south central Pennsylvania one of those spots where you know,
Speaker 3: at this point you can you can start to see
Speaker 3: some population level decline. The things that people said would
Speaker 3: never happen are actually happening, and there's real peer reviewed
Speaker 3: signs that shows that. And so it's it's frustrating for
Speaker 3: us because we have of you know, there's some folks
Speaker 3: out there who you know, have a platform that talk
Speaker 3: down on the NDA because we talk about CWD and
Speaker 3: we're the gloom and doom and it's funny because it's
Speaker 3: the last freaking thing we ever want to talk about.
Speaker 3: And so it's just amazes me that people will take
Speaker 3: that position on it. Listen, it is our responsibility is
Speaker 3: the is the country's premier conservation organization for deer to
Speaker 3: talk about CWD and to talk about what hunters can
Speaker 3: do to help. And that's the one nice thing about
Speaker 3: the disease, if there is one, is that hunters can
Speaker 3: actually help. They can do things like fill their antler
Speaker 3: list tags. They can do things like filling their antler
Speaker 3: tag even you know, but a lot of states, of course,
Speaker 3: are like one buck state, so that's just one deer.
Speaker 3: So definitely fill your antler list tags if you can.
Speaker 3: They can do things like be careful about how they
Speaker 3: handle their their deer when it's down and not drive
Speaker 3: it across the country, and you know, not do a
Speaker 3: number of these other things, not feeding deer. If you're
Speaker 3: in a disease area, that type of thing, those best
Speaker 3: management practices are out there. We talk about them a bunch.
Speaker 3: We help several states in the country communicate about CWD,
Speaker 3: and it's just about people doing their part and helping
Speaker 3: more so than it is just getting in the fetal
Speaker 3: position and you know, hoping it goes away. That's not
Speaker 3: how it works. And so as much as we can
Speaker 3: slow the spread, and it's not everywhere. I mean, if
Speaker 3: you were to just put the little pins in the
Speaker 3: map where it is versus where it's not. It's still
Speaker 3: not as far as we know in most places. That's good,
Speaker 3: and so let's sort of hold it at bay until
Speaker 3: the science can catch up and we can come up
Speaker 3: with some real, realistic and feasible ways of addressing it
Speaker 3: out there in the wild. So, yeah, we wish we
Speaker 3: didn't have to talk about it, but we have responsibility.
Speaker 3: We just can't pretend it's not there.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So one of the things that for a number
Speaker 2: of years now we've talked about is what you just
Speaker 2: ended with there, which is we need to follow all
Speaker 2: the best practices. We need to try to manage her
Speaker 2: numbers and make sure we are dealing with carcasses properly
Speaker 2: and not transporting this to somewhere else, because we just
Speaker 2: need to slow the spread, stem the bleeding until the
Speaker 2: science catches up, until solutions arise in some kind of way.
Speaker 2: And a couple of years ago, I don't remember what
Speaker 2: year it was, but recently the CWD Research and Management
Speaker 2: Act passed, which is going to help us get some
Speaker 2: funding for some of this research and hopefully fast track
Speaker 2: some of these things. And that was viewed as something
Speaker 2: that would you know, hopefully help that science catch up.
Speaker 2: I'm just curious, are there any updates on what's happened
Speaker 2: coming out of the passage of that bill and or
Speaker 2: any updates when it comes to research or science or
Speaker 2: possible solutions. Is there any good news on that front?
Speaker 2: Are we making progress? Yeah? I think we are.
Speaker 3: I mean I think we learned something every time a
Speaker 3: new research project is done, you know, whether it be
Speaker 3: an actual biological research or even a human dimensions project. Right,
Speaker 3: you know, the Research and Management Act remains a good idea.
Speaker 3: It still only gets funded. It's slightly over half of
Speaker 3: what it's authorized. The funds we're getting like seventeen million,
Speaker 3: and that gets split between wild deer conservation type research
Speaker 3: and you know, farm deer research. And on the farm
Speaker 3: deer side, they have primarily been focusing a lot of
Speaker 3: their money and attention on genetics research. On the wild side,
Speaker 3: we're looking at a whole bunch of other things. It's
Speaker 3: a lot broader than that. And so, you know, genetic
Speaker 3: research that's been a hot button issue lately. There's some
Speaker 3: states that put forth some legislation. Oklahoma last year went
Speaker 3: as far as to authorize people to start putting genetically
Speaker 3: altered deer out into the wild. And so before you know,
Speaker 3: anyone listening to this, don't take this as me being
Speaker 3: against genetic research, because that's not the case at all.
Speaker 3: I think that CWD is very complex. I think there
Speaker 3: are a lot of different things that we have to
Speaker 3: learn about and in order to come up with something
Speaker 3: to actually address it. But also we can't put all
Speaker 3: our eggs in that basket because number one, there's still
Speaker 3: no matter how much genetics work has been done, nobody
Speaker 3: has come up with a deer that is immune to CWD.
Speaker 3: All they've been able to come up with is some
Speaker 3: that are a little more resistant to it, and then
Speaker 3: when they get it, they keep it longer. Well, anybody
Speaker 3: that's been paying attention to anything about CWD knows the
Speaker 3: last thing we want is a deer with CWD on
Speaker 3: the landscape longer. Okay, So that doesn't mean that we
Speaker 3: just quit looking at it. Maybe we're onto something and
Speaker 3: that's sort of a step in the process. I don't know,
Speaker 3: it's well above my ability to understand it. But that's
Speaker 3: a far far reach from saying we need to start
Speaker 3: modifying deer that are a little more resistant and then
Speaker 3: put them out in the wild and see what happens.
Speaker 3: Like any credible scientists will tell you, you just do
Speaker 3: not duct conduct those types of experiments and put it
Speaker 3: risk wild deer, which is held in the public trust.
Speaker 3: They belong to all of us. That's a gigantic leap.
Speaker 3: And so we're behind smart research. We're behind smart paced research,
Speaker 3: peer reviewed, let's sample and controlled ways and see what
Speaker 3: we can learned. But we are not behind just throwing
Speaker 3: deer out on the landscape before we even know what's
Speaker 3: going to happen. Everybody, you know, the creator of Frankenstein,
Speaker 3: thought it was a great idea until Frankenstein became alive
Speaker 3: and then it was like, well, crap, what are we
Speaker 3: going to do with this. We can't do that with
Speaker 3: our wild deer resource. It's just irresponsible and we're not
Speaker 3: there yet.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you brought up how you know federal funding for
Speaker 2: that research has not reached the levels we hoped it had.
Speaker 2: There's been all sorts of talk in recent weeks and
Speaker 2: months about federal funding. Super hot topic, very fun to
Speaker 2: talk about. Is there anything related to that that might
Speaker 2: impact CWD research or any other federal funding tied to
Speaker 2: deer deer research, deer habitat. I know there's been a
Speaker 2: number of conservation organizations that had federal grants tied to
Speaker 2: habitat work that are now losing that or those those
Speaker 2: funds are frozen, and those concerns about that and the
Speaker 2: implications that could have anything related to that front. When
Speaker 2: it comes to deer, you.
Speaker 3: Know, there hasn't been any direct impact on things like
Speaker 3: the Research and Management Act, although that has to be
Speaker 3: authorized every year. It's not unrealistic to think that something
Speaker 3: like that could, you know, get to the floor and
Speaker 3: they don't appropriate the money and look at it as
Speaker 3: government waste. I don't know, or the opposite could be true.
Speaker 3: So we're all sitting here. We wake up every day
Speaker 3: and we don't know what we're going to see in
Speaker 3: the news. And then what you see in the news,
Speaker 3: we don't know how much of that will actually become reality.
Speaker 3: So I'll just speak to what we have seen so
Speaker 3: far and not try to project too far into the future.
Speaker 3: What we've seen so far is we certainly know some
Speaker 3: folks in partner organizations that have lost their jobs. We've
Speaker 3: seen that happen in a few spots. Has it impacted
Speaker 3: us directly you it probably will in some sense maybe
Speaker 3: the pace of things said. But then on the other
Speaker 3: side of it is we have been doing and this
Speaker 3: Matt is the best qualified person on the planet to
Speaker 3: talk about our work that we've been doing with the
Speaker 3: Forest Service and direct you're taking trees off the landscape
Speaker 3: building habitat. We see reasons for optimism with that. You know,
Speaker 3: this is an administration that believes in the extraction of resources,
Speaker 3: and a renewable resource like trees is right up our alley.
Speaker 3: And you know, mattch leading that work for us, and
Speaker 3: we have reason to believe that we may be doing
Speaker 3: even more of that work. And so I think it's
Speaker 3: a day by day for us. And I don't know,
Speaker 3: you know, if Matt wants to speak further on the
Speaker 3: forestry part of it, but that's that's kind of what
Speaker 3: we see.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Matt, can you can you updates a little bit
Speaker 2: on what the public Lands Initiative looks like? How any
Speaker 2: recent current events influence that? Yeah?
Speaker 4: Sure, so, you know a lot of it is at
Speaker 4: the current level. I haven't seen any direct impacts that
Speaker 4: has slowed us down on the agreements and contracts that
Speaker 4: we already have. I do know forest staff that have
Speaker 4: lost their jobs. Unfortunately, most of those people did not
Speaker 4: oversee the timber management programs that we are involved with,
Speaker 4: some of the volunteer programs that we are doing with
Speaker 4: forced staff, where we have people go out and help
Speaker 4: and do projects. Was was directly impacted or will be
Speaker 4: in some cases. But Nick just said it really well,
Speaker 4: and there's not you know, a ton that I can
Speaker 4: add other than I'm going to wait and see mode
Speaker 4: uh we. The only thing that I that has really
Speaker 4: directly impacted our program is we have some agreements that
Speaker 4: are in the queue waiting to be executed, which would
Speaker 4: be new or modified old agreements that have not been
Speaker 4: signed off on. And that's understandable because there's just a
Speaker 4: lot of things coming through that they're not signing off
Speaker 4: on new things. But we have a lot of contracts
Speaker 4: in place and have work ongoing today. I had an
Speaker 4: update this morning with one of our contractors, and we
Speaker 4: have people doing things active management right now today on
Speaker 4: uh the you know, on multiple for us, so still
Speaker 4: doing work. We just may not up, you know, upload
Speaker 4: new new work for the time being, but I anticipate
Speaker 4: that being a temporary thing and at some point we
Speaker 4: will have those moving as well.
Speaker 2: So that's good, that's great news. What what about I
Speaker 2: guess this brings me to another one of these larger
Speaker 2: federal programs that impacts deer habitat that I was going
Speaker 2: to ask you as about a later point, but maybe
Speaker 2: makes sense now. That's the farm Bill. We've we've had
Speaker 2: a farm Bill that has not been renewed for several
Speaker 2: years now, keeps on getting pushed and pushed and pushed.
Speaker 2: As I understand it, some of the funds for those
Speaker 2: programs within the conservation section of the farm bill might
Speaker 2: be withheld, frozen, or you know, all sorts of questions
Speaker 2: around that. While we're still trying to get this new
Speaker 2: one passed, where you can either one of you speak
Speaker 2: to where things stand with the Farm Bill in regards to,
Speaker 2: you know, the ways in the program the impact deer
Speaker 2: and deer hunters. There's stuff in there that's really important
Speaker 2: to deer hunters and a lot of folks that are
Speaker 2: wondering what's going to happen there. Anyone have thoughts or
Speaker 2: anything that you have heard on that front.
Speaker 3: Yet, there aren't many political volleyballs bigger than the Farm Bill,
Speaker 3: So there are so many elements of the farm Bill
Speaker 3: that the average person doesn't even realize their farm bill programs. Okay,
Speaker 3: and so yeah, it's I think it's responsible for government
Speaker 3: to take a hard look at it and see what
Speaker 3: belongs and what doesn't. It's probably not responsible though, for
Speaker 3: it to have gone this long without a resolution. We
Speaker 3: joke as an organization with Kathery Nappling pull Or, our
Speaker 3: director of policy, as an organization it works on the
Speaker 3: farm bill, we joke that as soon as you get
Speaker 3: one to the finish line, you're starting on the next one.
Speaker 3: And that's the reality of it. So, you know, in
Speaker 3: terms of deer programs, things that impact deer, I mean
Speaker 3: any conservation program or title that could impact the farm landscape,
Speaker 3: for example, could have profound impacts on deer and deer hunting.
Speaker 3: I mean, some of the best deer hunting that people
Speaker 3: talk about and legendarily have written about is done off
Speaker 3: of CRP land, right. You hear that all the time
Speaker 3: in the Midwest, right, just as one glaring example for
Speaker 3: deer hunters to any of these habitat projects that an
Speaker 3: uneducated person may look at and say, well, that doesn't
Speaker 3: impact production agriculture. So we need to quit funding it.
Speaker 3: It's a hypothetical, but you know, there's are the types
Speaker 3: of conversations that are had that has a profound impact
Speaker 3: on deer hunting. So I don't think you're going to
Speaker 3: see any resolution anytime real soon on the Farm Bill.
Speaker 3: One of the things that's in the Farm Bill though,
Speaker 3: that's interesting, there's a program in there that actually can
Speaker 3: fund venison processors. Their fund states to fund venison processors
Speaker 3: to help get deer cut up and also donation programs.
Speaker 3: And so we're talking about the need to harvest a
Speaker 3: bunch more deer. And one of the reasons people give
Speaker 3: often for not shooting more deers that they don't need
Speaker 3: it or they don't have an easy place to get
Speaker 3: rid of it. Well, one of the major initiatives at
Speaker 3: the NBA we're working on one is we're trying to
Speaker 3: connect more states with that federal program that's in the
Speaker 3: Farm Bill to have them take advantage of it. But
Speaker 3: the other thing is we've created this it's about to
Speaker 3: be launched here. Maybe by the time this hits the
Speaker 3: airwaves it'll be out, but we're launching a National Venison
Speaker 3: Processor map, or anybody anywhere in the country can go
Speaker 3: on the web and find their local process, or they
Speaker 3: can determine whether or not they take donations. Nothing like
Speaker 3: this exists out there. We've got a lot of partners
Speaker 3: on it, so we're excited about that. But programs like
Speaker 3: that one in the farm Bill as well, just at
Speaker 3: the time when we're trying to lead people to it
Speaker 3: and connect them to those dollars, we would hate to
Speaker 3: see that go away. And we say, oh, that's one
Speaker 3: tool that we thought we had, Now we don't have
Speaker 3: it anymore. And so that's why groups like ours participate
Speaker 3: in the farm Bill. It does have far ranging implications.
Speaker 3: And I don't mean to ramble, but we could go on.
Speaker 3: We could do a whole show on farm Bill habitat.
Speaker 2: So yeah, we could. Would you add anything that?
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, one thing that I was thinking Nick was
Speaker 4: talking about. It was related to the ant lilist harvest
Speaker 4: issue that we met were discussing earlier. One of the
Speaker 4: causes of hunters to go gun shy, you know, fifteen
Speaker 4: ten years ago was reduction if and basically deer populations.
Speaker 4: There was a drop in deer numbers. It was really
Speaker 4: hard for hunters to be successful in those couple of
Speaker 4: years and that's why a lot of states were backing
Speaker 4: off on their quotas, and there were questions at the
Speaker 4: time of what was the cause of some of these
Speaker 4: harvest drops. And at that time CRP was reduced by
Speaker 4: like twenty percent or more, and so me a lot
Speaker 4: of land was put back into row crop that had
Speaker 4: been in a type of condition that was conducive to
Speaker 4: good food and cover for deer because it was you know,
Speaker 4: waist high or neck high brush that deer like to
Speaker 4: bed in and eat in and spend time. And so
Speaker 4: that was a direct result of seeing deer numbers dropping
Speaker 4: and then states backing off on their analysts harvest, and
Speaker 4: then hunters have really not returned to that. Now CRP
Speaker 4: went in a different direction, and there's more land in
Speaker 4: that currently than there had been at that time. But yeah,
Speaker 4: I mean, it can have far reaching implications from many levels.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, we're talking millions of acres of habitat there,
Speaker 2: and it seems like, even though it did go up
Speaker 2: a little bit from the previous lows, from everything I've understood,
Speaker 2: we're still below demand. There's still probably we're below what
Speaker 2: it used to be at one point. It's been kind
Speaker 2: of arbitrarily capped, and it seems like people would like
Speaker 2: to get into the program that can't. And so yeah,
Speaker 2: we're talking millions of acres of a land that could
Speaker 2: be in this great deer habitat, which is not just
Speaker 2: great deer habitat, it's great habitat for upland birds, pollinators,
Speaker 2: grassland birds, small mammals.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 2: That's the kind of habitat that provides tremendous benefits for
Speaker 2: you know, cleaning our water, sequestering carbon minimizing erosion, a
Speaker 2: lot of a lot of good stuff there that that
Speaker 2: were missing out on unfortunately. So certainly hope a new
Speaker 2: farm bill has passed here soon with with with positive
Speaker 2: conservation title programs. But but yeah, a lot of questions
Speaker 2: around it and and on that front though this habitat thing.
Speaker 2: I was reading an article a while back by uh
Speaker 2: by the one and only Craig Harper on your website,
Speaker 2: and he was looking forward towards the next thirty years
Speaker 2: of deer and deer habitat management in America, and he
Speaker 2: was kind of thinking about how things have changed over
Speaker 2: the last thirty years and what that might mean for
Speaker 2: the future. And one of the things that he was
Speaker 2: predicting slash. Maybe hoping for was maybe less traditional food
Speaker 2: plots and farming practices for deer and less supplemental feeding
Speaker 2: and more of this kind of holistic ecosystem management for deer,
Speaker 2: that being managing for early successional habitat and old fields
Speaker 2: and timber stand management and all these different things. And
Speaker 2: he was pointing towards how there's benefits to your deer hunting. Obviously,
Speaker 2: it's more cost effective in many cases, and it's better
Speaker 2: for the larger ecosystem and other species in many cases too.
Speaker 2: I'm curious what your thoughts are nick on on the
Speaker 2: future when it comes to deer habitat management and kind
Speaker 2: of the role that we as hunters can play. This
Speaker 2: is something I've spent a lot of time thinking about recently,
Speaker 2: and I just see that there's this this opportunity for
Speaker 2: the deer hunting community to make this really significant impact.
Speaker 2: Like I feel like we are a conservation army that
Speaker 2: has only been just like just barely tapping into our potential.
Speaker 2: We've we've started to see what we can do, but
Speaker 2: there's so much more we could probably be doing. You know,
Speaker 2: this number I've been citing a lot. There's something like
Speaker 2: three hundred and sixty or three hundred and eighty million
Speaker 2: acres of land that are owned or leased primarily for
Speaker 2: hunting in America. A study showed that a handful of
Speaker 2: years ago. So there's this massive swath of America that
Speaker 2: we as hunters have influence over. We could probably be
Speaker 2: doing some spectacular things with that, and in many cases
Speaker 2: we are. There's lots of examples where we are, but
Speaker 2: probably a lot more. So I'm just curious, Nick, if
Speaker 2: you've thought about that at all and what you see,
Speaker 2: you know, as the as the leader of America's deer
Speaker 2: hunting organization, you know what potential there might be for
Speaker 2: we as the deer running community to really influence things
Speaker 2: for the better.
Speaker 3: I suddenly feel a lot of pressure now that you
Speaker 3: just said that the way that you said it.
Speaker 2: Jeez.
Speaker 3: Anyway, I'm want to tease out a couple of things
Speaker 3: that you said there, you know, so we'll go back
Speaker 3: to the Craig Harper article. I'll just say that we're
Speaker 3: we have continued to evolve as an organization. You know,
Speaker 3: back in the earliest days, we talked about things like
Speaker 3: food plots, and you saw some big, beautiful ones that
Speaker 3: are on television, right, and everybody wanted one of these
Speaker 3: made for television food plots. I'm gonna be honest with you.
Speaker 3: I got three or four small plots on my place.
Speaker 3: I like to grow a couple of those and take
Speaker 3: pictures of them and say look at me, right, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3: But at the end of the day, like yesterday, I
Speaker 3: had so much time available to go out into a project,
Speaker 3: and I took the chainsaw instead. Okay, And so Craig
Speaker 3: is absolutely right. We should be building the longer term habitats,
Speaker 3: not forgetting. I mean, there's definitely a place for food
Speaker 3: plots and that type of thing for sure. However, it's
Speaker 3: the longer term stuff you can do on your land
Speaker 3: that makes it better for all species, which is something
Speaker 3: we've really tried hard to do here at the NBA,
Speaker 3: because we do, you know, because deer is in our name,
Speaker 3: and deer have such a profound impact on habitat, we
Speaker 3: care about other species as well. We recognize that what
Speaker 3: we do will help not just deer, but other species.
Speaker 3: And so if you're doing like a clear cut betting
Speaker 3: area like I was working on yesterday, it's not just
Speaker 3: a betting area for deer. That's going to be early
Speaker 3: successional habitat for the next several years. It's going to
Speaker 3: be brows, it's going to be nesting ground, nesting bird cover,
Speaker 3: it's going to be all types of things and so,
Speaker 3: and it can be cheaper, as Craig also would point out,
Speaker 3: it's a lot cheaper to do something like old field
Speaker 3: management that already has tons of things that deer want
Speaker 3: to eat in it than it is to go out
Speaker 3: and kill it all and use herbicides and equipment, labor
Speaker 3: and time to put new seed in the ground. So
Speaker 3: that's that part of it. The other part of it is, yeah,
Speaker 3: you're right, Mark, there's no bigger army than deer hunters
Speaker 3: when it comes to people willing not just buying land.
Speaker 3: You don't just buy anybody listening to the snows, you
Speaker 3: don't just buy a piece of land. You could buy
Speaker 3: a piece of land a deer hunt and then you're
Speaker 3: just all done. I mean no, that's when the work
Speaker 3: really starts. All you're doing is buying yourself a lifetime project,
Speaker 3: and so you have to continually be working at it.
Speaker 3: And so we have hunters, whether they own the land
Speaker 3: or whether they're leasing land or whatever. Or volunteering on
Speaker 3: public land, going out and manipulating habitats like no other hunter.
Speaker 3: I used to be in the duck world for a while, right,
Speaker 3: and duck hunters do a lot of stuff too, But
Speaker 3: a lot of times it's like redirecting water so that
Speaker 3: they've got water at the right time that has benefit
Speaker 3: as well. I'm not picking on duck hunters. I'm just
Speaker 3: saying that deer hunters, in terms of manipulating landscapes, buying land,
Speaker 3: manipulating private landscapes, or they're an army of people that
Speaker 3: can make a huge difference. And we're trying very hard
Speaker 3: to educate people on you you don't want to cut
Speaker 3: down all your trees and make big five acre monocart
Speaker 3: culture food plots. There are better ways to do it,
Speaker 3: better ways for your deer hunting, better ways for other species, frankly,
Speaker 3: just better ways for the planet and conservation. And so
Speaker 3: we're trying to be much more holistic in our thinking
Speaker 3: that way.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Matt, would you add anything on any of those fronts?
Speaker 4: You know, as I look back at my career, have
Speaker 4: been with the organization a long time, I think that
Speaker 4: is perfectly said that it's this resource you know, not
Speaker 4: only is it an iconic species that a lot of
Speaker 4: people care about. You know, a lot of impassioned people
Speaker 4: care about deer, whether you're a hunter or not. They're
Speaker 4: just so visible and people align with the image of
Speaker 4: a white tailed deer. But from a hunter standpoint, I mean,
Speaker 4: we've talked before about having you know, the majority of
Speaker 4: hunters are deer hunters, and they they are more educated today.
Speaker 4: And I as I think about my career in this
Speaker 4: organization's history, there are a lot of successes in terms
Speaker 4: of teaching hunters what you know might be right versus wrong,
Speaker 4: or what would be helpful versus not helpful. And there's
Speaker 4: some amazing trends out there shifting aid structure. You know
Speaker 4: that that came through education, not through regulation. There was
Speaker 4: there's regulations out there and in you know states where
Speaker 4: states are provinces where they're forcing hunters to do one
Speaker 4: thing but buy in large. That's an education based campaign
Speaker 4: that hunters changed what they were doing. Habitat. You know,
Speaker 4: we have been teaching about habitat management since day one
Speaker 4: because it's one of the cornerstones of managing deer. And uh,
Speaker 4: I do see shifts and changes based on Craig's wit
Speaker 4: you know article that you're talking about, but just in
Speaker 4: terms of people asking questions and we get, you know,
Speaker 4: requests on how to do certain things. There's a lot
Speaker 4: of information out there about different habitat management techniques. But
Speaker 4: you know, there's a growing trend over the past decade
Speaker 4: or so of these techniques that we're talking about in
Speaker 4: terms of managing holistically and managing ecosystems. And when I
Speaker 4: talk about all of this, do you report data, you know,
Speaker 4: big issues, the big picture stuff coming down the pike.
Speaker 4: I generally do have a positive view because I do
Speaker 4: think that hunters will take action once educated. They hear
Speaker 4: messages coming from a lot of different places, now, not
Speaker 4: just NDA. They're hearing it from mass media like yourselves
Speaker 4: and others. They hear from their state or provincial wildlife agencies.
Speaker 4: They hear from their friends, you know, and generally the
Speaker 4: messaging that's coming across is more uniform, although there's there's
Speaker 4: mixed messaging out there. Of course, you know what's good
Speaker 4: or bad about certain things. But I do have a
Speaker 4: positive view that we can change the tide because I've
Speaker 4: been part of it. We've we've changed hunter's attitudes about things,
Speaker 4: and I get a little bit in passion myself about
Speaker 4: you know, hunters need to wake up about this or that.
Speaker 4: It's because I know we can do it. I've seen it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So that's a perfect way to kind of segue
Speaker 2: to the last thing I want to ask you about.
Speaker 2: I want you both to imagine a future, let's say
Speaker 2: twenty years from now, and I'd like you to imagine
Speaker 2: two different versions. In one version, we have been wildly
Speaker 2: successful and we are living in a golden age for
Speaker 2: not just deer hunting, but also the landscape that surrounds
Speaker 2: deer hunting, wildlife, the natural resources. That's option A. I'd
Speaker 2: like you to also imagine option B, in which our
Speaker 2: deer hunting resource and the natural resources and wild world
Speaker 2: around it have deteriorated, Our hunting opportunities have deteriorated, and
Speaker 2: we are now looking back on twenty twenty five, I
Speaker 2: even saying, golly, we had no idea, how good we
Speaker 2: had it. How do we screw this up? What would
Speaker 2: lead us to option A and what might lead us
Speaker 2: to option B if you were to be in that
Speaker 2: future world. And I'll let Matt go first, and then
Speaker 2: Nick you can you can close us up, Matt. If
Speaker 2: option A comes to be true and we are living
Speaker 2: the golden days and things are great, what got us
Speaker 2: to that point? And then part two would be then
Speaker 2: what got us to that dire situation? What would you
Speaker 2: expect would have happened in that case?
Speaker 4: That's a great question, you know, Option A. I think
Speaker 4: we can get there through collaboration. Everybody working in unison
Speaker 4: towards you know, a single or you know, a uniform feeling.
Speaker 4: So if we're all messaging certain things around disease management
Speaker 4: or population management or abbaitat management, and not every but
Speaker 4: the majority of hunters are working towards that and are
Speaker 4: hearing the same message come from their state agency and
Speaker 4: their cousin and you know NDA and meat Eater and
Speaker 4: Wired to Hunt, and we're all saying the same thing,
Speaker 4: and they listen and they do it. That's how we
Speaker 4: get to option Option B is where chaos ensues and
Speaker 4: people believe things that are counter to what the science says,
Speaker 4: They are counter to what the right thing to do is.
Speaker 4: And unfortunately there are mixed messages out there and we
Speaker 4: need to quell that as much as possible. Option B
Speaker 4: to me is the dire condition is where people don't
Speaker 4: value deer anymore the way that we value them today,
Speaker 4: whether you're a hunter or not, if there is a
Speaker 4: future where the dire condition is people see deer in
Speaker 4: a negative way. They're vermin, They're a problem. They're not
Speaker 4: something we can maybe not just utilize, but they're there
Speaker 4: for us. They're a valuable natural resource for everybody to enjoy,
Speaker 4: to look at, to harvest and eat, you know, to
Speaker 4: just recreate around, and they make our lives better. That
Speaker 4: is the dire thing that I think would end up happening.
Speaker 4: And unfortunately, there are things that might get.
Speaker 2: Us there.
Speaker 4: Too many deer, them ruining the environment because they eat everything,
Speaker 4: you know, invasive species issues, disease issues, zoanotic disease issues
Speaker 4: where we might come down with something, and market hunting
Speaker 4: where they're just valued as something that might not be
Speaker 4: but they are. But I believe in us, I believe
Speaker 4: in society. I mean, as crazy as things are today
Speaker 4: in twenty twenty five, there are some uniform things that
Speaker 4: I know that you know, the hunting and conservation community
Speaker 4: can come together, and I think the people and the
Speaker 4: systems and the organizations that have the loudest megaphone as
Speaker 4: long as we're all on the same page and saying
Speaker 4: the same thing when it comes to these issues, we
Speaker 4: can get to a that's what I think.
Speaker 2: Love it, Nick, What are your thoughts on those two?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm glad you made Matt go first. He did
Speaker 3: such a good job. I can just sort of coast
Speaker 3: in here. Yeah, I mean, I'll take a little bit
Speaker 3: different swing of it. Swing at it. We're probably going
Speaker 3: to say the same thing, maybe just in a different way.
Speaker 2: We were just.
Speaker 3: Talking about habitat a little bit ago. And I think
Speaker 3: if we can accomplish a the sunshine scenario, if people
Speaker 3: begin to understand that a good quality deer and good
Speaker 3: quality hunting, a good quality deer are actually a symptom,
Speaker 3: They're a symptom of something else. There are a symptom
Speaker 3: of being a good steward of the land and good habitat.
Speaker 3: And so I think unintended consequence of the earliest days
Speaker 3: of this organization was I think that the animal became
Speaker 3: the focus. Not from an organizational standpoint. QTMA from day
Speaker 3: one talked about like build habitat, YadA, YadA, YadA, but
Speaker 3: from the outsider perspective myself included when I first heard
Speaker 3: of the QTMA and this idea of older deer, Like
Speaker 3: I was so focused on the deer that I failed
Speaker 3: to understand everything around that deer, and that's what really matters.
Speaker 3: It's everything around the deer that matters. And so I
Speaker 3: think that we will continue to educate to people to
Speaker 3: help bring people around to this idea that good deer
Speaker 3: are a symptom of good habitat and good stewardship. And
Speaker 3: I am, like Madam, very optimistic. Hunters have shown forever
Speaker 3: that they're willing to rise to the occasion and do that.
Speaker 3: And also that you don't have to you don't have
Speaker 3: to own land to do this. We've done many projects. Frankly,
Speaker 3: all of that's work in the Forestry Initiative is all
Speaker 3: public land. We've done through our branches and personally been
Speaker 3: part of many mark you as well, you know from
Speaker 3: from uh You know, all of your great work and
Speaker 3: messaging is done on land that we all own collectively
Speaker 3: private their public land. And so you don't have to
Speaker 3: own land to do it. You just have to say,
Speaker 3: you know what, I want to be part of what's
Speaker 3: really at play here, and that's good habitat, good stewardship,
Speaker 3: and a symptom of that is going to be good
Speaker 3: deer and good deer hunting. And then the other part
Speaker 3: I'll touch on more on the uh. You know, if
Speaker 3: things don't go well, there are sort of negative anti
Speaker 3: messaging against things like we're talking about there against CWD,
Speaker 3: about anything that's bad news. There's a segment out there
Speaker 3: that they want to just downplay it, and it's not real,
Speaker 3: and it's really sad, and it's really short sighted because
Speaker 3: like you know what, it might might we might sell
Speaker 3: less magazines or write less articles, or we might you know,
Speaker 3: less people might listen to what I have to say
Speaker 3: because they don't hunt anymore. They're mad about CW. That
Speaker 3: is so short sighted and so sad in my view,
Speaker 3: Like we can have all the things. It is plentiful
Speaker 3: out there we can talk about. We do it. We
Speaker 3: do it every single day at the National Deer Association.
Speaker 3: We talk about the stuff that we don't want to
Speaker 3: talk about necessarily but have to, and we talk about
Speaker 3: all the fun stuff too that you can do. You
Speaker 3: can do both, and I would like us all to
Speaker 3: do both and do both together. It can be tough love,
Speaker 3: right Like your parent probably shouldn't be your best friend.
Speaker 4: Okay.
Speaker 3: If that's the case, there's probably not a whole lot
Speaker 3: of parenting going on. So I think you can have
Speaker 3: tough love no matter what platform you have. You know,
Speaker 3: if you're a writer and you're concerned about selling articles,
Speaker 3: I think you can sell a heck of a lot
Speaker 3: of articles being able to talk about all the things
Speaker 3: and people will still love you and respect you for that.
Speaker 3: And so I would say that if we start falling
Speaker 3: into these traps like we don't need to care about
Speaker 3: CWD or this is all or that. One of that
Speaker 3: always blows my mind is like this is a big
Speaker 3: money maker, Like, dude, I'm telling you right now, CWD is.
Speaker 3: We would be working on far better things if we
Speaker 3: didn't have to work on that, Okay, And so that's
Speaker 3: what we want to do. We want to work on
Speaker 3: the fun things and do the fun things. So it
Speaker 3: can be tough love sometimes.
Speaker 2: I get it.
Speaker 3: We're not always the sexiest, flashiest message. At times. We
Speaker 3: can be sort of the no fund zone, you know,
Speaker 3: because we don't always tell people what they want to hear.
Speaker 3: But I don't think we'd be responsible if we were
Speaker 3: just you know, being everybody's best friend is a sort
Speaker 3: of a parent to dear organization, So a little bit
Speaker 3: of a soapbox rant, but I think your question sort
Speaker 3: of led me right to that.
Speaker 2: Point, important, important point to make, and I will you know,
Speaker 2: as a deer hunter myself who learned a whole heck
Speaker 2: of a lot from your organization over the last twenty years,
Speaker 2: I can personally say that while there's been the occasional
Speaker 2: not so fun topic, I've had a whole hell of
Speaker 2: a lot of fun along the way too, and much
Speaker 2: of it has been because of the great work that
Speaker 2: you guys have been doing, so so thank you for
Speaker 2: that over the many long years, and thank you for
Speaker 2: sharing all of this here today. Real quick, Can you
Speaker 2: Nick give us a quick reminder of where we can
Speaker 2: connect with the NDA, how we can become a member
Speaker 2: or see the twenty twenty five Deer Report and.
Speaker 3: Full Yeah, absolutely deer reports freed everybody. By the way,
Speaker 3: you can just download that on our website. Just type
Speaker 3: deer Report in the search Boxdear Association dot com. Whether
Speaker 3: you become a member or not, that's freed to anybody.
Speaker 3: We encourage you to check that out. If you were
Speaker 3: so inclined to become a member, you can also just
Speaker 3: go to our website and there's a real easy to
Speaker 3: find join button there. You can join for as little
Speaker 3: as zero and become just a basic member and get
Speaker 3: our newsletter every week, or you can become a Premium
Speaker 3: member you get some other benefits, and you can become
Speaker 3: a life member too. I got one of those in
Speaker 3: my inbox over the weekend. I'm looking forward to responding
Speaker 3: to and so yeah, I mean again talking about symptoms
Speaker 3: and whatnot. I think us being good stewards of our
Speaker 3: mission is the most important thing. A symptom of that
Speaker 3: is we get people that join us and want to
Speaker 3: do a little bit more for deer hunting than just
Speaker 3: go out and pull a trigger and release an arrow.
Speaker 3: So we're going to focus on being really good at
Speaker 3: our mission and we hope that compels you to want
Speaker 3: to be part of it in some bigger way.
Speaker 2: Amazing. Well, I appreciate everything you guys do. I appreciate
Speaker 2: you being here today and look forward to another chat soon.
Speaker 3: We appreciate you Mark, thanks for the opportunity.
Speaker 4: Absolutely Thanks Mark.
Speaker 2: All right, and that is a wrap. I appreciate you
Speaker 2: being here with me. Thank you for joining me and
Speaker 2: being a part of this community until next time, Stay
Speaker 2: wired to hunt,