WEBVTT - Can a Robot Kill Fish Humanely? 0:00:15.396 --> 0:00:33.146 Pushkin. I'm Jacob Goldstein, and this is What's Your Problem? 0:00:33.286 --> 0:00:36.846 My guest today is Saif Khawaja. He's the co-founder and 0:00:36.866 --> 0:00:40.346 CEO of a company called Shinkai. Saif's problem is this. 0:00:40.926 --> 0:00:43.886 Can we find a way for industrial fishermen to kill 0:00:44.016 --> 0:00:46.516 fish and that is more humane than the way the 0:00:46.556 --> 0:00:50.296 fish are currently killed, and is still economical, still works 0:00:50.356 --> 0:00:53.566 in the market. Saif didn't start out as a fish guy. 0:00:53.956 --> 0:00:57.146 He was a college student studying engineering, and he happened 0:00:57.166 --> 0:01:00.366 to read an essay by the philosopher Peter Singer. The 0:01:00.466 --> 0:01:04.486 essay is called If Fish Could Scream. And in the essay, 0:01:04.626 --> 0:01:07.716 Singer argues that the way fish are typically killed now 0:01:08.176 --> 0:01:12.676 is slow and cruel. In particular, it's common for fish 0:01:12.736 --> 0:01:15.726 to be left to slowly suffocate after being pulled out 0:01:15.746 --> 0:01:19.046 of the water. After Safe Red Singer's essay, he started 0:01:19.106 --> 0:01:22.126 looking more deeply into the subject, and he found a 0:01:22.186 --> 0:01:26.456 traditional technique used by Japanese fishermen that involves putting a 0:01:26.556 --> 0:01:29.716 spike through the fish's brain to quickly kill the fish. 0:01:30.496 --> 0:01:34.456 This is called ikejime, and many people believe that besides 0:01:34.516 --> 0:01:37.586 killing the fish more quickly, this technique also makes the 0:01:37.616 --> 0:01:42.746 fish meat last longer and taste better. Saif started his company, Shinkai, 0:01:43.106 --> 0:01:46.246 to try and figure out how to turn Ikejime into 0:01:46.406 --> 0:01:50.326 an industrial process, to use technology to build a machine 0:01:50.666 --> 0:01:52.856 that can be used on fishing boats to kill fish 0:01:52.936 --> 0:01:57.176 quickly rather than let them suffocate slowly. It's early still, 0:01:57.316 --> 0:02:00.296 but the signs are promising. The company has built a 0:02:00.296 --> 0:02:04.086 machine that's currently on roughly 20 fishing boats, and they're 0:02:04.116 --> 0:02:07.026 on track to sell several million pounds of fish this 0:02:07.086 --> 0:02:10.396 year to restaurants and grocery stores around the United States. 0:02:11.096 --> 0:02:14.256 To start, I asked Saif about that essay, If Fish 0:02:14.296 --> 0:02:18.216 Could Scream, that inspired him to start the company. What 0:02:18.256 --> 0:02:21.016 was it like for you to read this essay? What 0:02:21.056 --> 0:02:23.576 happened in your mind, in your heart, when you read 0:02:23.616 --> 0:02:24.076 this essay? 0:02:24.536 --> 0:02:28.796 Yeah, it's interesting. So to talk through my emotions a 0:02:28.796 --> 0:02:30.556 little bit, I'll take you back to a story when 0:02:30.606 --> 0:02:32.706 I was a young kid. And, you know, I didn't 0:02:32.746 --> 0:02:33.966 grow up on a farm, but I had a lot 0:02:34.006 --> 0:02:37.086 of family members that had farms, and grew up in 0:02:37.106 --> 0:02:39.166 the Middle East, grew up Muslim. One time when I 0:02:39.206 --> 0:02:42.046 was a child, I noticed two goats by the side 0:02:42.066 --> 0:02:44.826 of our home and decided to become friends with them 0:02:44.866 --> 0:02:47.786 because I love animals. And so for about a week, 0:02:47.926 --> 0:02:50.676 I was feeding them lettuce and petting them, and I 0:02:50.716 --> 0:02:53.476 gave them names. And then at the end of the week, 0:02:54.056 --> 0:02:56.256 they were gone, and I was having lamb for dinner. 0:02:56.276 --> 0:02:59.256 And I didn't really realize until I asked where the 0:02:59.516 --> 0:03:02.966 lamb went, and, hey, here's a lamb or a goat. But, 0:03:03.246 --> 0:03:05.266 you know, once I heard, I was crying and I 0:03:05.286 --> 0:03:07.686 was sad and I felt bad. I built this emotional 0:03:07.726 --> 0:03:10.776 relationship with the animals. So when I read that essay, 0:03:10.806 --> 0:03:13.516 it kind of gave me some emotions like that where, 0:03:14.016 --> 0:03:16.656 you know, I think I was jarred a little bit 0:03:16.696 --> 0:03:19.176 by the, like, lack of empathy, the fact that I'd 0:03:19.196 --> 0:03:21.896 created an emotional relationship with an animal that other people 0:03:21.986 --> 0:03:24.046 didn't have that same emotional connection with. 0:03:24.606 --> 0:03:27.006 That's how it is growing up, right? When you grow up, you... 0:03:27.686 --> 0:03:30.566 When you're a little kid, you understand things like, oh, 0:03:30.686 --> 0:03:33.096 I like that animal, and we just killed it. And 0:03:33.136 --> 0:03:36.316 it probably didn't want to die. But then you're sort of, 0:03:37.076 --> 0:03:38.576 you live in the world, and there's a set of 0:03:38.656 --> 0:03:41.296 norms in the world, and you kind of take the 0:03:41.336 --> 0:03:44.456 norms for the most part, right? And you, if everybody 0:03:44.476 --> 0:03:46.776 around you eats meat, you probably eat meat and get 0:03:46.876 --> 0:03:48.866 over the fact that you didn't want your friend the 0:03:48.906 --> 0:03:52.946 goat to die. So you read this essay, and you 0:03:52.966 --> 0:03:55.846 just start thinking about this issue of fish suffering, right? 0:03:57.146 --> 0:04:00.616 It's not the killing. It's the fact that it's the 0:04:00.776 --> 0:04:04.696 asphyxiation that is a slow, terrible process. And if we 0:04:04.736 --> 0:04:07.376 could kill the fish without that, that would be better 0:04:07.436 --> 0:04:09.476 for the fish, just at a minimum. 0:04:09.516 --> 0:04:11.606 Well, the fish are going to be killed either way, right? 0:04:11.716 --> 0:04:14.226 They're going to die, but we can agree that how 0:04:14.266 --> 0:04:17.766 the animal dies matters, right? And so you're sort of 0:04:17.806 --> 0:04:19.606 down this rabbit hole, and you find this, it's a 0:04:19.666 --> 0:04:25.246 kind of manual, very artisanal, traditional Japanese method, right? This 0:04:25.306 --> 0:04:28.546 is not what they're doing in industrial fisheries in Japan, right? 0:04:28.566 --> 0:04:31.586 This is like a guy with a metal spike putting 0:04:31.626 --> 0:04:33.126 it through one fish's head, correct? 0:04:33.426 --> 0:04:36.116 Well, there are some examples of high-volume fisheries where they 0:04:36.126 --> 0:04:38.916 will do this, but for farms. But for the most part, no. 0:04:39.036 --> 0:04:41.676 I agree with you. I just want to be, for 0:04:41.696 --> 0:04:45.796 the listeners out there, there are some counterexamples, but as 0:04:45.836 --> 0:04:47.076 a whole, it's simpler. 0:04:47.576 --> 0:04:49.836 So there are some people who have tried to automate 0:04:49.896 --> 0:04:50.996 this before you. 0:04:51.796 --> 0:04:54.276 People have tried since the 1970s. No one has done 0:04:54.316 --> 0:04:59.516 it successfully, necessarily. But in the industrial cases, it's mostly, 0:04:59.936 --> 0:05:02.156 there's like a team of six to eight people I 0:05:02.156 --> 0:05:03.896 have an industrial fishery sitting there doing this by hand. 0:05:05.076 --> 0:05:08.816 Okay. So where do you get the idea, I'm going 0:05:08.836 --> 0:05:11.976 to build a machine to kill fish more humanely? 0:05:12.836 --> 0:05:14.516 You know, for this part, I wish I had something 0:05:14.556 --> 0:05:19.486 more romantic than thinking, why not solve the problem directly? Yeah. Again, 0:05:19.506 --> 0:05:22.546 which is an engineering response and fix the root cause, 0:05:22.606 --> 0:05:25.346 which is build something that can actually do that process. 0:05:26.046 --> 0:05:29.616 Yeah. it is this interesting middle ground, right? Because one 0:05:29.676 --> 0:05:34.196 response to reading that Peter Singer essay is to stop 0:05:34.236 --> 0:05:36.576 eating fish, say, or to say, I'm going to try 0:05:36.596 --> 0:05:39.616 and get other people to stop eating fish. But there's 0:05:39.656 --> 0:05:44.216 a sort of narrow, a middle ground where you're landing, 0:05:44.236 --> 0:05:46.676 which is, it's okay to kill fish to eat them, 0:05:47.076 --> 0:05:51.586 but we shouldn't make them suffer gratuitously. Like, did you 0:05:51.646 --> 0:05:53.526 immediately go to that middle ground? 0:05:54.046 --> 0:05:59.536 I did. I do believe that some genetics are designed to, 0:05:59.816 --> 0:06:01.416 they've co-evolved with eating meat. 0:06:01.936 --> 0:06:06.276 So, okay. Now you're on the path of building the machine. 0:06:06.296 --> 0:06:07.636 Yeah. 0:06:08.416 --> 0:06:12.276 Tell me about the nail and the plastic fish. Yeah. 0:06:13.716 --> 0:06:21.966 So, the idea was I should show conceptually the idea 0:06:22.046 --> 0:06:24.786 that this could be automated in some form. And so, 0:06:25.916 --> 0:06:29.286 Bought a plastic fish, had a 3D printer in my 0:06:29.306 --> 0:06:32.026 dorm room, taped a nail to the end of it, 0:06:32.706 --> 0:06:36.146 and using some open source computer vision tools, not, again, 0:06:36.166 --> 0:06:38.126 super technical, but enough to be able to show it, 0:06:38.806 --> 0:06:41.536 sent this video to Y Combinator of this plastic fish. 0:06:42.456 --> 0:06:46.416 And then I sent a cold email to the general partner, 0:06:46.476 --> 0:06:50.886 Jared Friedman, and interviewed and got in and took the 0:06:50.926 --> 0:06:53.056 company full time in early 2022. 0:06:53.056 --> 0:06:54.416 Got into Y Combinator. 0:06:54.656 --> 0:06:57.056 Yeah, that was the impetus for halving the capital to 0:06:57.096 --> 0:06:58.056 really take it full-time. 0:06:59.136 --> 0:07:01.916 So tell me how it works. There's a boat right now. 0:07:01.936 --> 0:07:06.186 There's boats out in the water doing this. Probably at 0:07:06.226 --> 0:07:10.126 this minute, certainly today. Just tell me what are those boats. 0:07:10.206 --> 0:07:12.526 Tell me what's happening. Like, wherever you want it to be, 0:07:12.566 --> 0:07:14.346 whatever kind of fish. But give me something specific. 0:07:14.426 --> 0:07:16.996 Yeah, let's throw out, like, our bread and butter is 0:07:17.156 --> 0:07:20.786 a trap boat that's catching black cod. And so traps, 0:07:21.086 --> 0:07:23.106 think of them as an analog to the lobster pots 0:07:23.526 --> 0:07:27.226 where they're either long chain of nets or cages that 0:07:27.246 --> 0:07:29.466 the fish will swim into. And then they'll pull them up, 0:07:29.886 --> 0:07:33.296 you know, each net by net. And so the fish 0:07:33.316 --> 0:07:34.956 are then brought onto the deck of the boat. There's 0:07:34.976 --> 0:07:37.516 normally like a pool of water where they're sitting. And 0:07:37.556 --> 0:07:41.396 then they are put into the machine today by hand, 0:07:41.416 --> 0:07:43.576 one by one. And so each fish will go in. Okay. 0:07:44.136 --> 0:07:46.676 We have a computer vision layer that, you know, from 0:07:46.716 --> 0:07:49.176 a camera that's running constantly that will scan the fish. Okay. 0:07:49.706 --> 0:07:52.186 figure out the species and then, okay, if it's this species, 0:07:52.236 --> 0:07:54.816 then this is a cutting path for piercing the brain, 0:07:54.916 --> 0:07:57.396 for cutting the gills. And then we have mechanical systems 0:07:57.416 --> 0:08:01.316 that will do those while holding fish down in, you know, 0:08:01.336 --> 0:08:03.416 our own method that we developed. The fish will come 0:08:03.436 --> 0:08:06.056 straight out and they go out into a half ice, 0:08:06.096 --> 0:08:08.606 half water slurry. And so the heart, which is still 0:08:08.686 --> 0:08:10.646 active after brain death, will pump the blood out of 0:08:10.666 --> 0:08:12.986 the meat. And then the fish are then moved into 0:08:13.006 --> 0:08:15.406 the hold once the bleeding process is complete. 0:08:16.586 --> 0:08:17.786 What's the machine look like? 0:08:18.986 --> 0:08:21.716 So we say it's like a refrigerator. In practical reality, 0:08:21.736 --> 0:08:24.176 it's basically this metal box, about two and a half 0:08:24.216 --> 0:08:28.356 by three feet for the bigger one, and then about 60% 0:08:28.356 --> 0:08:32.116 smaller for the ones that are going in salmon boats. Okay. 0:08:32.366 --> 0:08:35.646 And it is, for all intents and purposes, a black box. 0:08:35.826 --> 0:08:37.786 We put fish in, flop it around, it comes out limp. 0:08:38.466 --> 0:08:42.746 The doors are on because we need the computer vision 0:08:43.266 --> 0:08:45.296 to be consistent, and so we have an internal lighting system, 0:08:45.336 --> 0:08:46.336 and so that blocks out the sun. 0:08:46.356 --> 0:08:46.436 Okay. 0:08:46.856 --> 0:08:49.276 Because if you have different lighting systems, it makes the 0:08:49.316 --> 0:08:50.796 AI less reliable. 0:08:51.196 --> 0:08:52.206 Makes sense. Makes sense. 0:08:52.826 --> 0:08:55.086 And then, yeah, the fish comes straight out. So you 0:08:55.106 --> 0:08:59.406 can hear the process happening, of course. But outside that, 0:08:59.746 --> 0:09:03.126 the producers and the harvesters don't see what's happening. 0:09:03.706 --> 0:09:06.086 Does this system change the number of fish that a 0:09:06.146 --> 0:09:08.426 boat can catch and kill in a day? 0:09:08.766 --> 0:09:11.356 So the way that fishing is regulated is through a 0:09:11.376 --> 0:09:14.376 quota system for the most part. And so fishermen have 0:09:14.416 --> 0:09:15.596 a fixed amount of fish that can come out of 0:09:15.616 --> 0:09:18.806 the water. And the idea here for the reason we 0:09:18.826 --> 0:09:20.376 do this model is that the fishermen get paid a 0:09:20.406 --> 0:09:23.476 little bit more, and so they can draw more value 0:09:23.536 --> 0:09:25.896 from the quota that they're allocated. So the amount of 0:09:25.916 --> 0:09:28.916 fish that they fish does not change. That is also 0:09:28.956 --> 0:09:30.856 why we do not work with every single vessel, because 0:09:30.896 --> 0:09:33.626 there are some vessels, like these massive commodity boats, that 0:09:34.266 --> 0:09:36.146 in theory, if we were to work with them, they'd 0:09:36.166 --> 0:09:38.326 have to slow down operations, and we haven't built systems 0:09:38.366 --> 0:09:40.426 to account for the massive volume. 0:09:41.176 --> 0:09:44.696 So I want to talk about a little bit about 0:09:44.776 --> 0:09:49.236 the sort of development. And in particular, there's this paper 0:09:49.256 --> 0:09:55.416 that was published earlier this year. One of your engineers, 0:09:55.456 --> 0:09:59.146 I guess, was a co-author, right, of studying this device 0:09:59.186 --> 0:10:04.106 you built to automate killing fish in this more human 0:10:04.146 --> 0:10:08.686 way and comparing it to the sort of manual Ikejime and, like, asphyxiation, 0:10:08.706 --> 0:10:09.086 the tradition. 0:10:09.396 --> 0:10:09.656 Right? 0:10:10.836 --> 0:10:14.736 And let me say thank you for doing that paper. Like, 0:10:14.796 --> 0:10:17.286 it's helpful. You know, people make all these claims, and 0:10:17.306 --> 0:10:18.926 then when there's, like, a paper, it's like, oh, great. 0:10:19.046 --> 0:10:21.686 It's like we can really talk about, at least at 0:10:21.706 --> 0:10:23.186 the time you were doing this research, what worked and 0:10:23.206 --> 0:10:26.446 what didn't. And, I mean, one of the clear things 0:10:26.506 --> 0:10:29.606 that they said in the paper was that I'll just 0:10:29.666 --> 0:10:32.326 read it. Ikejime had said, should be preceded by a 0:10:32.406 --> 0:10:36.846 stunning step ensuring immediate loss of sensibility. Because the fish 0:10:36.866 --> 0:10:40.086 didn't always just die as fast as you wanted them to, essentially. Like, 0:10:40.926 --> 0:10:43.706 do you do that now? Did you add the stunning step? 0:10:45.166 --> 0:10:49.046 So, we did not. And this was a point of 0:10:49.066 --> 0:10:51.616 disagreement that we had with some of the philosophies around 0:10:51.626 --> 0:10:54.546 how the research came out versus that. First of all, 0:10:54.576 --> 0:10:58.236 that paper was from early 2023 and from the studies 0:10:58.246 --> 0:11:00.296 that just didn't get published till later. And we've made 0:11:00.316 --> 0:11:02.636 a lot of improvements into the machine and process and 0:11:03.336 --> 0:11:05.756 particularly the speed, right? That's the most important part. And 0:11:05.776 --> 0:11:08.036 so back then, you know, we were doing a fish like, 0:11:09.236 --> 0:11:13.276 I don't know, once every, don't quote me, hard quote 0:11:13.296 --> 0:11:14.876 me on this, but I'd say it's like around once 0:11:14.896 --> 0:11:17.436 every 20 to 30, maybe even 40 seconds per fish. 0:11:17.836 --> 0:11:18.796 That's too long, right? Yeah. 0:11:19.376 --> 0:11:21.296 Because most of you haul up a bunch of fish 0:11:21.336 --> 0:11:23.116 and they're all just sitting there waiting to get killed 0:11:23.156 --> 0:11:26.226 in the machine. So they're essentially asphyxiating in the traditional way. 0:11:26.346 --> 0:11:28.406 Exactly. And so I think what was clear is that 0:11:28.766 --> 0:11:32.066 there was a potential for the process, but the speed 0:11:32.086 --> 0:11:34.286 needed to be improved for it to really be an 0:11:34.306 --> 0:11:38.466 industrial process that was like humane driven, right? Yeah. And 0:11:38.526 --> 0:11:42.026 the other part to it is sometimes stunning can actually 0:11:42.066 --> 0:11:45.246 be less humane for them because you have to dial 0:11:45.266 --> 0:11:47.966 in a specific voltage for the fish. And for wild fish, 0:11:47.986 --> 0:11:50.646 it's basically impossible to do that because you're catching fish that, 0:11:50.866 --> 0:11:53.316 you know, say a black cod, the smallest you're getting 0:11:53.356 --> 0:11:55.756 is like two pounds that you can pull out the water, 0:11:56.056 --> 0:11:58.356 and the largest is like 15, right? And so that 0:11:58.376 --> 0:12:02.476 breadth means a very broad voltage range that you need 0:12:03.436 --> 0:12:07.126 to be flopping between for the stunner. And so that 0:12:07.146 --> 0:12:09.166 alone means that, you know, if you go too high, 0:12:09.206 --> 0:12:10.886 you're going to damage the meat in a way that 0:12:10.906 --> 0:12:13.086 makes this process kind of redundant. If you go too low, 0:12:13.126 --> 0:12:16.106 you're basically tasing the fish, but it's still conscious and 0:12:16.126 --> 0:12:18.866 going to continue to flop around. And so what we'd 0:12:18.886 --> 0:12:21.076 rather do is just not add an extra part of 0:12:21.096 --> 0:12:23.976 the process, but improve the speed for the fish and 0:12:24.016 --> 0:12:26.296 how fast we can do it. And so now it's 0:12:26.316 --> 0:12:28.036 a couple of seconds to be able to process each 0:12:28.056 --> 0:12:31.796 individual one. So again, this is just our perspective and 0:12:32.076 --> 0:12:34.576 our view on what the best way is to handle 0:12:34.596 --> 0:12:39.136 the fish. And so the data isn't necessarily reflective of 0:12:39.556 --> 0:12:41.076 all the conversations that were happening in the background. 0:12:42.096 --> 0:12:44.296 Sure. No, I mean, like I said, I think it's 0:12:44.336 --> 0:12:46.596 great that you published this paper or that this paper 0:12:46.636 --> 0:12:52.896 was published. I mean, the findings weren't that compelling, right? Like, 0:12:53.086 --> 0:12:55.666 it seemed like for the larger fish, it didn't work 0:12:56.666 --> 0:12:59.846 particularly reliably. And I know it was a prototype. I'm 0:12:59.886 --> 0:13:02.206 just trying to figure out what to make of it, right? Like, 0:13:03.346 --> 0:13:05.546 are you going to do another study? Like, how do 0:13:05.586 --> 0:13:06.996 I know that it works better now? 0:13:08.236 --> 0:13:10.716 So we've done internal studies and external studies now. We 0:13:10.736 --> 0:13:13.426 just haven't published them yet because the publishing cycle takes 0:13:13.446 --> 0:13:15.346 a very long time. So I'm happy to send you 0:13:15.366 --> 0:13:18.566 data on the latest on what it compares to versus 0:13:18.606 --> 0:13:19.346 handy Kijime. 0:13:19.746 --> 0:13:21.706 So let me ask, how well does it work now? 0:13:22.286 --> 0:13:25.016 So it depends on the criteria of what you're looking at. 0:13:25.356 --> 0:13:27.836 And so we don't have the capacity to look at 0:13:27.896 --> 0:13:31.776 every single fish and put a little EEG thing on 0:13:31.796 --> 0:13:35.766 their brain. But in terms of being able to get 0:13:36.496 --> 0:13:38.596 implied loss of consciousness, which is the fish going limp, 0:13:39.036 --> 0:13:41.976 which is destroying the brain or things like that. You know, 0:13:41.996 --> 0:13:45.616 we're hitting, again, not having the most, you know, like 0:13:45.696 --> 0:13:48.256 up-to-date information with the team from today, but I'd say 0:13:48.296 --> 0:13:51.776 about 90% is like the number that we're hitting. And 0:13:51.856 --> 0:13:53.916 that's with a, you know, five to six second cycle 0:13:53.956 --> 0:13:54.696 time for each machine. 0:13:55.556 --> 0:13:58.196 And that happens like in the ocean, in the real world? 0:13:58.576 --> 0:14:01.156 Yeah, that's in, you know, all the machines are deployed 0:14:01.276 --> 0:14:02.996 on vessels out in the ocean. 0:14:03.276 --> 0:14:03.456 Yeah. 0:14:05.496 --> 0:14:05.576 Um. 0:14:06.736 --> 0:14:10.736 So we've been talking about the, let's call it the 0:14:10.776 --> 0:14:12.876 ethical side or the suffering of the fish. That is 0:14:12.896 --> 0:14:16.176 what we have been talking about. I know you talk 0:14:16.196 --> 0:14:19.426 a lot about the quality of the fish, you know, 0:14:19.466 --> 0:14:23.366 setting aside, do the fish suffer less? Is the fish better? 0:14:23.506 --> 0:14:25.026 I know you make the case that the fish is 0:14:25.066 --> 0:14:27.186 better and there are fancy chefs who agree with you. 0:14:28.366 --> 0:14:29.666 Tell me about that side. 0:14:29.686 --> 0:14:32.256 Yeah, there are a couple of things we can open 0:14:32.296 --> 0:14:35.886 up into here. Quality by itself doesn't mean anything. Much, right? 0:14:36.106 --> 0:14:38.166 Is it quality in terms of shelf life? Is it 0:14:38.186 --> 0:14:41.786 about texture? Is it about flavor? Is it about nutrient density? Right? 0:14:41.846 --> 0:14:42.986 It's a very abstract term. 0:14:43.586 --> 0:14:48.046 I mean, I've seen you mention shelf life before. That's 0:14:48.116 --> 0:14:51.316 another one where, like, has anyone studied that? I looked 0:14:51.356 --> 0:14:54.256 for evidence about shelf life. Is that out there and 0:14:54.276 --> 0:14:55.636 I just didn't see it? I didn't see it. 0:14:56.016 --> 0:15:00.316 Yeah. We do internal rigor mortis studies that we share 0:15:00.576 --> 0:15:03.426 with customers. We haven't released it yet, but that's part 0:15:03.446 --> 0:15:05.366 of the reason we've been able to get Many large 0:15:05.386 --> 0:15:06.906 retailers as they believe the data. 0:15:08.546 --> 0:15:12.246 But when you say rigor mortis, like that's time to 0:15:12.306 --> 0:15:13.266 rigor mortis from death? 0:15:13.866 --> 0:15:16.116 Yes. And that's very well understood to be a proxy 0:15:16.146 --> 0:15:18.816 for the stress that the animal goes through before it 0:15:18.976 --> 0:15:22.276 passes away, as well as in turn a proxy for 0:15:22.296 --> 0:15:28.276 the shelf life and the texture after the rigor mortis 0:15:28.466 --> 0:15:29.226 peak has been reached. 0:15:30.646 --> 0:15:33.526 I'm actually more interested in the sort of outcome measures 0:15:33.606 --> 0:15:36.716 that a chef or a person cooking fish at home 0:15:36.736 --> 0:15:37.296 would care about? 0:15:37.336 --> 0:15:39.316 Well, so chefs are going to be looking at rigor mortis. 0:15:39.486 --> 0:15:41.526 They just don't call it that. Animals, you know, and 0:15:41.546 --> 0:15:44.006 actually meat in general, goes through something that I like 0:15:44.026 --> 0:15:47.506 to draw akin to ripening, in that basically, you know, 0:15:47.526 --> 0:15:50.746 people will hold fish up, and when it has entered rigor, 0:15:50.846 --> 0:15:52.606 it's going to stay basically very limp. And so if 0:15:52.626 --> 0:15:54.616 you hold it in the middle of your palm, it's 0:15:54.626 --> 0:15:57.796 going to be bending on both sides. Chefs and, you know, 0:15:57.856 --> 0:16:00.816 buyers and retail will associate that with freshness. And so 0:16:01.156 --> 0:16:03.276 then when the fish goes into rigor... Even though it's 0:16:03.296 --> 0:16:04.876 sitting in your palm, it should be limp over. It's 0:16:04.996 --> 0:16:09.606 actually completely parallel to the ground. And so it's very rigid. Basically, 0:16:09.786 --> 0:16:12.606 once that starts, when that process happens, the body has 0:16:12.666 --> 0:16:15.386 realized that the animal has passed away. And so after that, 0:16:15.406 --> 0:16:18.066 the deterioration, the kind of enzyme breakdown of the animal, 0:16:18.086 --> 0:16:21.096 the biological breakdown of the animal begins. So it's not 0:16:21.146 --> 0:16:22.976 really a proxy for whether the fish is bad or not. 0:16:23.016 --> 0:16:24.976 It's kind of like the start of the time. And 0:16:25.016 --> 0:16:27.076 so we both delay that time as well as delay, 0:16:27.576 --> 0:16:31.246 in turn, the biological breakdown time. So a suffocated fish 0:16:31.546 --> 0:16:33.986 will go into peak rigor a couple of hours after 0:16:34.006 --> 0:16:37.446 passing away, called two to four hours. Hour process is 0:16:37.486 --> 0:16:40.066 like a 35 to 38 hour time to rigor. 0:16:40.486 --> 0:16:43.386 Compared to two to four for a standard commercial fishery. 0:16:43.546 --> 0:16:43.886 Exactly. 0:16:44.366 --> 0:16:46.596 So that's a big difference. The difference between four hours 0:16:46.646 --> 0:16:47.996 and 35 hours is quite large. 0:16:48.126 --> 0:16:48.456 Exactly. 0:16:49.266 --> 0:16:52.116 What does that mean for people eating that fish? 0:16:53.076 --> 0:16:59.376 So we suggest to retailers that they get anywhere from 0:16:59.436 --> 0:17:01.956 twice to thrice the use of shelf lives. How much 0:17:01.976 --> 0:17:04.196 they pass on to the consumer is not necessarily under 0:17:04.236 --> 0:17:06.156 control and how much we know about, but we know 0:17:06.176 --> 0:17:08.696 that that possibility is there for the consumers to have 0:17:09.236 --> 0:17:12.056 better shelf life. It is also a proxy for texture. 0:17:12.216 --> 0:17:14.436 And so generally, if you're buying a fish that's processed 0:17:14.456 --> 0:17:17.556 this way and it's given to you early enough, you 0:17:17.886 --> 0:17:22.966 will have better texture that's more rigid. There's some, obviously 0:17:22.986 --> 0:17:25.606 this is subjective, but there's some improvement in flavor as well. 0:17:26.066 --> 0:17:27.346 And so these are some of the things that when 0:17:27.366 --> 0:17:30.096 you think about a fish that's been processed in our 0:17:30.116 --> 0:17:32.536 method that you can look for benefits. 0:17:35.926 --> 0:17:51.176 We'll be back in just a minute. Let's talk about 0:17:51.216 --> 0:17:57.496 where you are now. Um, How many of your machines 0:17:57.996 --> 0:18:02.986 are out in boats today or this week or this month? 0:18:03.996 --> 0:18:07.266 Yeah, I'd probably say about 20 vessels, you know, with 0:18:07.286 --> 0:18:11.546 a couple of them having two. And then we're expecting 0:18:11.566 --> 0:18:15.576 to get to 25 peak this year with other robots 0:18:15.596 --> 0:18:18.756 being built because we need spares and test units and so. 0:18:18.516 --> 0:18:21.616 On and so on. And where are they and what 0:18:21.656 --> 0:18:26.176 kind of fish are they? Humanely killed, hopefully humanely killed. 0:18:26.456 --> 0:18:30.536 So they're deployed across the country from Alaska down to California. 0:18:31.036 --> 0:18:34.876 Most of them being the Pacific Northwest or Alaska. And then, um, 0:18:35.636 --> 0:18:37.516 Texas up to Boston, but mostly in the Gulf. 0:18:37.696 --> 0:18:38.476 And what kind of fish? 0:18:39.216 --> 0:18:41.236 Black cod is our bread and butter. Um, we do 0:18:41.276 --> 0:18:42.936 mostly black cod. We're going to do, you know, a 0:18:43.736 --> 0:18:45.656 couple of million pounds of fish total this year. Most 0:18:45.696 --> 0:18:48.616 of that will be black cod. We also do harvest 0:18:48.836 --> 0:18:52.336 some sockeye salmon. We just announced that recently. We have 0:18:52.996 --> 0:18:58.396 Pacific cod, rockfish, vermilion rockfish, red snapper, a couple other 0:18:58.436 --> 0:19:01.036 bycatch species in the Gulf, and black sea bass in 0:19:01.056 --> 0:19:01.476 the Northeast. 0:19:02.416 --> 0:19:03.966 And what's the business model? 0:19:05.096 --> 0:19:08.506 So we give the machines to fishermen for free. It's 0:19:08.526 --> 0:19:11.826 structured as a lease, but they pay $ 0 per the payments. 0:19:12.586 --> 0:19:14.466 And then we buy the fish. We have right of 0:19:14.486 --> 0:19:17.756 first refusal on all the fish that they process with it. 0:19:18.306 --> 0:19:21.386 And then we sell that fish under our brand. you know, 0:19:21.406 --> 0:19:23.806 the parent company being Shinkie, the technology company that develops 0:19:23.826 --> 0:19:27.506 all the IP, that all employees are underneath. We have 0:19:27.546 --> 0:19:29.766 a subsidiary called the Ceremony Fish, and we call the 0:19:29.806 --> 0:19:33.206 fish Ceremony Grade, as a nod to, like, Ceremony Grade Matcha. 0:19:33.906 --> 0:19:35.486 And the kind of idea there is... I. 0:19:37.106 --> 0:19:39.546 Should say Ceremony has an S at the beginning and 0:19:39.586 --> 0:19:40.216 an I at the end. 0:19:40.306 --> 0:19:40.946 Yes, exactly. 0:19:40.966 --> 0:19:43.846 Yes, yes, yes. Kind of vaguely Japanese, yeah. 0:19:44.006 --> 0:19:46.416 I think that's the way that you anglicize how the 0:19:46.456 --> 0:19:49.496 Japanese say Ceremony in Japanese, but so that's kind of 0:19:49.516 --> 0:19:52.456 the way we chose to spell that way. And we 0:19:52.536 --> 0:19:56.706 came up with ceremony grade as this kind of marker 0:19:56.726 --> 0:19:59.196 for quality and, you know, something that we believe we 0:19:59.236 --> 0:20:01.876 can stand for because, you know, when you go and 0:20:01.896 --> 0:20:05.276 buy fish at the grocery store, you know, for the 0:20:05.316 --> 0:20:07.756 most part, you'll be told it's for that species, it's 0:20:08.056 --> 0:20:12.666 wild or it's farmed, never necessarily that the exact geography 0:20:12.706 --> 0:20:14.746 that has been caught in or the type of gear 0:20:14.966 --> 0:20:18.066 or so on. And, When you look at cattle or poultry, 0:20:18.186 --> 0:20:22.466 like in beef, you have grass-fed, USD choice, USD prime. 0:20:22.626 --> 0:20:27.206 For chicken, you have pasture-raised or similar, right? And there's 0:20:27.246 --> 0:20:30.656 not really an analog to process for fish, only for genetics. 0:20:30.876 --> 0:20:34.836 And so that was where we saw that there was 0:20:34.856 --> 0:20:39.996 an opportunity. That's alternative from the sustainability certification that exists, ASC, MSC, 0:20:40.016 --> 0:20:41.756 which all do a great job but are really focused 0:20:41.816 --> 0:20:42.536 on sustainability. 0:20:43.916 --> 0:20:48.426 So... I am your customer, I think, depending on how 0:20:48.466 --> 0:20:50.956 much more it costs than regular fish. Like, I buy 0:20:51.256 --> 0:20:56.156 pasture-raised chicken. Great. And I don't even know if it 0:20:56.176 --> 0:20:59.856