1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:05,880 Speaker 1: Hi. This is Laura Vandercamp. I'm a mother of five, 2 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:10,240 Speaker 1: an author, journalist, and speaker. And this is Sarah hart Unger. 3 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 1: I'm a mother of three, a practicing physician and blogger. 4 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 1: On the side, we are two working parents who love 5 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:19,320 Speaker 1: our careers and our families. Welcome to best of both worlds. 6 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, 7 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:25,800 Speaker 1: and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping 8 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:28,360 Speaker 1: out long term career goals. We want you to get 9 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:33,880 Speaker 1: the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds. 10 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:36,840 Speaker 1: This is Laura. This is episode one hundred and eighty six, 11 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:39,520 Speaker 1: which is airing in late February for the first time. 12 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:42,960 Speaker 1: In this one, I'll be interviewing Joanne Lublin, who is 13 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 1: the author of the book Power Moms, always a topic 14 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:48,920 Speaker 1: we're excited about here. Joanne, it was a longtime Wall 15 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:52,720 Speaker 1: Street journal editor who forged quite the trail there raising 16 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 1: her children while rising up the ranks of the journal. 17 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:57,000 Speaker 1: So she is going to talk about that. We're looking 18 00:00:57,040 --> 00:01:01,280 Speaker 1: forward to hearing from her. While it is snowing outside 19 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 1: as I am recording this, we are thinking of summer. Sarah, 20 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:08,199 Speaker 1: have you made your camp spreadsheet? Yet I did start 21 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:10,759 Speaker 1: to make a camp spreadsheet. This was spurred on by 22 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 1: I read this fashion blog called feather Factor, and she 23 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:17,000 Speaker 1: wrote a post about how like her kids had been 24 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:20,560 Speaker 1: rejected from camps because they were full. She lives in California, 25 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 1: so I'm sure it's just a very different scenario and 26 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:25,640 Speaker 1: maybe they have more limited options. But I was like, ah, 27 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:28,120 Speaker 1: but then I realized we're not in that scenario here. 28 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:31,319 Speaker 1: I don't think any registration has closed, and in fact, 29 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:34,000 Speaker 1: the camp that I'm probably going to be sending the 30 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:36,759 Speaker 1: kids to hasn't even announced anything or opened. But I'm 31 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:39,200 Speaker 1: pretty sure it's going to happen. So I made this 32 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:42,600 Speaker 1: whole spreadsheet that involved sending the kids to a camp 33 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 1: that was like a little bit of a drive. It 34 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:46,959 Speaker 1: was supposed to be like the best, most spectacular camp, 35 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:50,880 Speaker 1: And then I realized that we could probably have pretty 36 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 1: good for like so much less annoyance factor, like a 37 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 1: much closer drive, better fit for all three kids, a 38 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 1: comfortable place that we already kind of know, and really like, 39 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 1: how bad could it be if they're going outside and 40 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 1: doing stuff together and it's similar to school but with 41 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:12,800 Speaker 1: more outdoor play, like seems fine. Yeah, So I decided 42 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 1: I'm going to keep it very very simple. I may 43 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 1: add like a week of horseback riding for Namel because 44 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 1: her school actually finishes a week before the other kids anyway, 45 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 1: so that's a nice opportunity to let her try something else. 46 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:26,960 Speaker 1: But otherwise I think we're going to keep things very 47 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 1: very simple, low key. Yeah. For our listeners who are 48 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 1: not aware of the camp spreadsheet concept, this is when 49 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:40,080 Speaker 1: you have the children on one access, your various camp 50 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 1: age children, and the weeks of the summer on the 51 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:46,920 Speaker 1: other access. I tend to do the children across the 52 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:50,000 Speaker 1: top and the weeks of the summer down the left 53 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:54,240 Speaker 1: hand side. This allows you to you know, mark vacations, 54 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 1: and then as you're planning where children are at various 55 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 1: different points, you know notice how many weeks different kids are, 56 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 1: or that you can double up who's in which camp when. 57 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:07,920 Speaker 1: So if you have more than, for instance, one child, 58 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 1: and your summer schedule does not just involve, like you know, 59 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:17,919 Speaker 1: a nanny or one sort of summer daycare type camp 60 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 1: or whatever, then this is a good way to keep 61 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:25,000 Speaker 1: coordinated about this so you don't accidentally sign three kids 62 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:27,679 Speaker 1: up for three different camps that are in opposite directions 63 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 1: and you only have you know one driver, or you 64 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:33,840 Speaker 1: double sign up for a week, or realize you have 65 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 1: no care for one week or something. It's just helps, 66 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 1: you know. We love a good spreadsheet here at the 67 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 1: best of both worlds, right, Sarah, Yes, And I intuitively 68 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:43,119 Speaker 1: set mine. I didn't look at yours, but I set 69 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 1: mine up at a very similar manner. But then when 70 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:47,240 Speaker 1: I was just looking at like, oh, maybe this could 71 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 1: be here, this could be there, I'm like, I am 72 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 1: highly motivated for all three kids to be in the 73 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:55,640 Speaker 1: same play that weighs like almost any kind of other 74 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 1: bells and whistle that could be present. And I know, 75 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 1: you know, oh, go ahead, go. I was gonna say, 76 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 1: I have not made the spreadsheet yet. I mean I 77 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 1: started signing up. But the only camp that I've signed 78 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 1: really kids up for yet, aside from one that's offered 79 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 1: at Alex's school, like before the public school ends but 80 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 1: after his school ends, is the camp that I was 81 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 1: very disappointed had canceled last summer and had this sort 82 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 1: of not wonderful approach to the whole refund thing, which 83 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:27,560 Speaker 1: I get it's a small business, but they had been 84 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 1: basically saying we are if you want a refund, we're 85 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:34,120 Speaker 1: gonna have. We're gonna hold onto your money for like 86 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 1: a year, and then you're gonna get seventy percent of 87 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 1: it back, like what they're like. Or you could take 88 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:42,839 Speaker 1: a twenty percent credit and enroll the kids next year. 89 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:47,280 Speaker 1: And I mean, again, I get it. I was really 90 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:49,960 Speaker 1: upset at the time. But on the other hand, since 91 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:52,000 Speaker 1: I was going to probably send the children to this 92 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 1: camp again, giving somebody a loan at a twenty percent 93 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 1: annual interest rate is not bad at all, right, Like 94 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:01,920 Speaker 1: that's like credit card style interest. So I was like, Okay, well, 95 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:04,800 Speaker 1: I'll just go for that. So I did take a 96 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 1: big chunk of my credit for this summer and have 97 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:10,040 Speaker 1: signed three of the children up for multiple weeks there, 98 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 1: so that is done. But I had done everything by 99 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 1: like January first last year, and then of course got 100 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 1: totally burned when everything canceled, so I've been a little 101 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:25,480 Speaker 1: bit shy about doing that. January first is early. Most 102 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:28,480 Speaker 1: of our camps don't even release like information until sort 103 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:31,360 Speaker 1: of the February to March time, and this must be 104 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:33,120 Speaker 1: a regional thing, because that's why I was so shocked 105 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 1: about that California person. I was like, what, Well, it's 106 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 1: more that it's not that they would have been full. 107 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 1: It's that they offer their early bird discounts right if 108 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:44,840 Speaker 1: you sign up by that time. So that was what 109 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:47,359 Speaker 1: what made the camp that canceled and was going to 110 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 1: only give you seventy percent back a year later. It's like, 111 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:51,800 Speaker 1: because you've now had my capital for a year and 112 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 1: a half. But it's actually a pretty good investment. It 113 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:00,200 Speaker 1: was a good investor. It was a good investment. May 114 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:02,839 Speaker 1: have gone out of business. I guess if they didn't 115 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:05,359 Speaker 1: do some deal like that, So I guess it's good there. Yeah, No, 116 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:07,159 Speaker 1: I get it, I get it. It It was just annoying 117 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:10,240 Speaker 1: at the time. But anyways, and I was going to say, 118 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:13,720 Speaker 1: we totally understand if in your area, if if you 119 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 1: don't feel like you're able or ready or safe to 120 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 1: do camp. I mean, I hope, I hope that maybe 121 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 1: you'll be pleasantly surprised by summer as rates are starting 122 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 1: to trend down and more and more people are vaccinated 123 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:30,240 Speaker 1: that hopefully there'll be more options in almost every area. Hopefully. 124 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:32,960 Speaker 1: Sounds good. Yeah, but our kids have been back in 125 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:36,880 Speaker 1: school for the year, so that's happened fairly well. And 126 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:39,680 Speaker 1: you know, so there we go. All right, Well, let's 127 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:43,360 Speaker 1: dive into the interview with Joanne Lublin, author of Power Moms, 128 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:46,280 Speaker 1: So we'll get right to that. Well, Sarah and I 129 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:50,840 Speaker 1: are delighted to welcome Joanne Lublin to the program. So Joanne, 130 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 1: could you introduce yourself to our listeners. Hi? Everyone, I'm 131 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:59,120 Speaker 1: Joanne Lublin. I am a regular contributor to The Wall 132 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 1: Street Journal and the author of two books about working women, 133 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 1: and your newest one is called Power Moms, which is 134 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:08,719 Speaker 1: out around now. Tell us a little bit about what 135 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 1: are power Moms. Well, it's a name I kind of 136 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 1: made up, but a power mom I define as a 137 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 1: woman who has become an executive in a business and 138 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 1: also has children. She didn't necessarily get to be the 139 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 1: executive level when the kids came along. But in order 140 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 1: to get interviewed for my book, you had to have 141 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 1: worked at some point for a sizable company with at 142 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 1: least one hundred million dollars in revenue. And I didn't 143 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 1: care where you were working now, or even if you 144 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:41,520 Speaker 1: were no longer working, because a number of those women 145 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 1: I interviewed are entrepreneurs, and I ended up interviewing eighty 146 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 1: six power moms from two generations, and what did you 147 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:54,840 Speaker 1: learn as you were you were doing this, Well, what 148 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 1: I was trying to find out is what had changed, 149 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 1: what had gotten better in terms of the difficulties of 150 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 1: navigating life and career between the Boomer generation which is 151 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 1: my generation, and the gen xers slash millennials. So half 152 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:15,840 Speaker 1: of those eighty six women were Boomers and the other 153 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:19,600 Speaker 1: half were predominantly gen Xers, about two thirds gen Xers 154 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 1: one third Millennials. Separate from those eighty six moms, I 155 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 1: also interviewed twenty five adult daughters of the boomers to 156 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:32,280 Speaker 1: find out what was it like growing up with a 157 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:35,160 Speaker 1: mom who was really committed to her career. Did they 158 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 1: want to be like mom? Did they want to be 159 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 1: somebody else? And did mom end up being actually a 160 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 1: secret weapon for those young women as they now are 161 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 1: joining or have joined the workforce. So it's interesting because 162 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:54,560 Speaker 1: you are one of those Boomer power moms yourself, and 163 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 1: I know that your adult daughter plays a role in 164 00:08:57,080 --> 00:09:00,679 Speaker 1: this book too. So you joined the Wall Street in 165 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:05,440 Speaker 1: what nineteen seventy one, right, that's right, and you raised 166 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 1: two children while you were, you know, rising through the 167 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 1: ranks there becoming I think the first female head of 168 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 1: a bureau for the Wall Street Journal. Well, I was 169 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 1: actually the first female deputy head of a bureau, okay, 170 00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 1: but at that point ours was the only bureau that 171 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:23,079 Speaker 1: was run by two women, because my bureau chief was 172 00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 1: a woman who had become the first female bureau chief 173 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 1: of a Wall Street Journal bureau in Boston, Kathy Christiansen. 174 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 1: She did so well there they made her buer chief 175 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 1: in London, and then she picked me as her second 176 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:37,719 Speaker 1: in command. So the women were running London for the 177 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:41,920 Speaker 1: Wall Street Journal. We were as you are doing this. 178 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:44,200 Speaker 1: I wonder if you could just describe for a lot 179 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 1: of our listeners, are you know, in the gen X 180 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 1: millennial mom phase of this raising children in the seventies 181 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:53,440 Speaker 1: and eighties while building a career. I mean, what are 182 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 1: the things you think that modern moms might not know 183 00:09:56,679 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 1: about what that was like. Well, one of the things 184 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 1: that it was very, very different is that this was 185 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:06,960 Speaker 1: something weird. This was strange. Okay. For the most part, 186 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 1: women were not seen as being in socially acceptable roles 187 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 1: to want to be committed to their careers and equally 188 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:17,440 Speaker 1: committed to their children, and so you kind of had 189 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 1: to hide the fact that you had children, as you 190 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:25,440 Speaker 1: worried about it hurting your credibility. We were very much 191 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 1: the trailblazers, and so we didn't want to do anything 192 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 1: that would detract from being taken seriously by the guides. 193 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:35,960 Speaker 1: And have you found that women who are in that 194 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:38,680 Speaker 1: sort of thirty five to forty five age range, of 195 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 1: the younger executives you interviewed, are they more open about 196 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 1: being mothers at the workforce? They're not only more open 197 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 1: about being mothers, but they recognized that the trail has 198 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 1: been blazed for them by those boomers, and they believe 199 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:57,040 Speaker 1: that they deserve to be accepted as people who have 200 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 1: both a parenting hat and an employ or an executive hat. 201 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:05,280 Speaker 1: And as one younger woman put it, who I interviewed 202 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:07,920 Speaker 1: for the book, she says, we have earned it, and 203 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 1: she obviously had read my first book, which is called 204 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:14,080 Speaker 1: Earning It. Do you think this is true though for 205 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:16,959 Speaker 1: men as well? I wonder, I mean, did boomer men 206 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:19,800 Speaker 1: probably didn't talk about their kids much at the office either, 207 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 1: And I wonder if this is something that you know, 208 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:25,760 Speaker 1: younger men are more open about having, you know, parental 209 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:30,880 Speaker 1: involvement as well. I think definitely that is another very 210 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 1: significant shift between the generations. But I also think we're 211 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:42,440 Speaker 1: still burdened by social expectations, by gendered norms of what 212 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 1: men and women alike are supposed to be doing once 213 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 1: they have kids, because we live in a society that 214 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 1: still puts such a high priority on people who work 215 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 1: all hours. The twenty four to seven notion of being 216 00:11:56,720 --> 00:11:59,720 Speaker 1: always on is something I write about, And when it 217 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:05,320 Speaker 1: comes to men, there's still this perception that men's first 218 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 1: priority should not be their family, it should be their job, 219 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:14,040 Speaker 1: which is why, even as companies have broadened their quote 220 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 1: unquote maternity leave to define it as parental leave, you 221 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:22,679 Speaker 1: still see a relatively low percentage of men taking advantage 222 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:26,960 Speaker 1: of a benefit that is available. Did you find with 223 00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:30,720 Speaker 1: the younger executive moms that things were kind of different 224 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:34,960 Speaker 1: in their households? Do you think that I'm curious if 225 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:39,319 Speaker 1: they were still dealing with these expectations as much or 226 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:42,840 Speaker 1: precisely because they were so high up in their careers 227 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:47,320 Speaker 1: that these issues weren't as important for them. Now what 228 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:51,960 Speaker 1: has changed is number one, there is a much greater 229 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 1: understanding in the workplace that we don't stop being parents 230 00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:59,079 Speaker 1: when we start work, whether we're working from home or 231 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:02,440 Speaker 1: working in the office. And at the same time, because 232 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 1: of the gains of that boomer generation in the workplace, 233 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 1: these younger women have role models of women who have 234 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:12,680 Speaker 1: gotten into much higher level jobs and they're currently in 235 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:16,079 Speaker 1: when they start having families, and who have made it possible. 236 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:19,200 Speaker 1: But the most important change, it seems to me, is 237 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 1: that these younger women have different expectations of their spouses, 238 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:26,160 Speaker 1: you know, whether it's a husband or a life partner 239 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:30,000 Speaker 1: or a wife, and they set those ground rules if 240 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 1: they're smart at the outset of that long term relationship 241 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 1: about the fact that they want to have this be 242 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 1: if they're going to have kids, a co parenting set up, 243 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:43,320 Speaker 1: if they're going to be setting up household together. You know, 244 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:47,400 Speaker 1: one person should not bear the entire load, especially when 245 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 1: it comes to what is called the third shift, which 246 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 1: is the mental load, the person who's keeping track of everything. 247 00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 1: And there are numerous examples in the book of these 248 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 1: younger women not only standing up and insisting on this 249 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:06,560 Speaker 1: as the sort of prerequisite for getting long term involved 250 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:10,880 Speaker 1: with their mate, but pushing back when things don't seem 251 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 1: to be going along the lines that they thought everybody 252 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:17,240 Speaker 1: had agreed to. I love the example of this lawyer 253 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 1: who his husband also has a high powered career, and 254 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:24,840 Speaker 1: she says, you know, we're not really sharing on the 255 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:28,880 Speaker 1: childcare and child responsibility side of things, like we had 256 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:31,920 Speaker 1: talked about. And he's like, you're absolutely right. You know, 257 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:35,360 Speaker 1: I can see you're overwhelmed. How about I start making 258 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 1: the doctor's appointments and taking the kids for the pediatrician checkup. 259 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 1: She said, I think that would be great. And then 260 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:44,320 Speaker 1: he says, and what's the doctor's name again and his 261 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 1: phone number? Yes, So there was clearly some gap between 262 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:53,400 Speaker 1: expectations and what had been happening. We're going to take 263 00:14:53,400 --> 00:15:08,000 Speaker 1: a quick bak for ads. We'll be right back. So 264 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:11,120 Speaker 1: this is Laura. I am here with Joanne Lublin, who 265 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:15,080 Speaker 1: is the author of Power Moms, How Executive Mothers Navigate 266 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:18,200 Speaker 1: work and life. Joanne spent her career at The Wall 267 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 1: Street Journal, leading the many aspects of the paper there 268 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 1: writing a column about executive careers. So, Joanne, you know 269 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:31,000 Speaker 1: you and your husband, it sounded like you had a 270 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:35,520 Speaker 1: fairly egalitarian set up, you know, getting married in the 271 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:38,080 Speaker 1: seventies and raising your kids in the eighties. I think 272 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:42,520 Speaker 1: it was you actually put something in your marriage contract, 273 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 1: I guess about household duties. We did, and this marriage 274 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 1: contract with something that was also a little bit out 275 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:54,480 Speaker 1: of the ordinary at the time and remained so. Although 276 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 1: there are many couples who enter prenuptial contracts in order 277 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 1: to protect themselves in case of divorce, we entered into 278 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:04,360 Speaker 1: a marriage contract in order to protect our marriage and 279 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:07,320 Speaker 1: make sure it would be a long lasting and a 280 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 1: happy one. And so the only provision of all the 281 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 1: various aspects that we drafted that survived being translated into 282 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:18,480 Speaker 1: legal language by the lawyer was the one that my 283 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 1: fiancee future husband, Michael wrote, and it was as follows, 284 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:30,360 Speaker 1: household duties shall be shared equally, but not necessarily cheerfully. 285 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 1: I love that. How did that work out? I'd say 286 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 1: it's worked out pretty well, to the point that when 287 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 1: our son got engaged to his now wife, I offered them, 288 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 1: in fact, sent them a copy of the marriage contract, 289 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 1: and Dan came back and said, you know, Mom, we 290 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 1: don't think we need anything that's formal, but you know, 291 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 1: I did observe the role model growing up, and so 292 00:16:57,560 --> 00:17:00,640 Speaker 1: once they got married, whoever cooks the other one cleans 293 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:03,480 Speaker 1: up and I said, yeah, but when I'm at your house, 294 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 1: I always see your wife doing the wash And he said, yes, 295 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 1: but Mom, you don't see me doing all the folding. Ah, 296 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:14,439 Speaker 1: you weren't observing the folding. Well, it sounds like they 297 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:16,679 Speaker 1: picked up a lot from you, and in terms of 298 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:19,800 Speaker 1: your adult daughter, because that was an angle of power 299 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 1: moms as well that you interviewed, you know, two dozen 300 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 1: adult daughters of these boomer power moms. How did it 301 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:29,879 Speaker 1: tend to play out with the adult daughters, because it 302 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 1: sounded like it could kind of go both ways. Sometimes, 303 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:34,560 Speaker 1: you know, young women are like, I don't want to 304 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 1: be anything like my mom, and sometimes they're like, wow, 305 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:38,600 Speaker 1: my mom has a lot of connections that can really 306 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 1: help me if I if I avail myself of that. Well, 307 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 1: it seems to me that the adult daughters actually did 308 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:47,720 Speaker 1: want their bread buttered on both sides. A lot of 309 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:51,200 Speaker 1: them do not want to be a high powered senior 310 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:54,959 Speaker 1: executive because they saw how stressful and difficult that was 311 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:58,520 Speaker 1: for their moms when they were growing up. But at 312 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:01,720 Speaker 1: the same time, they want to be successful in whatever 313 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:05,280 Speaker 1: line of work or profession that they have chosen. And 314 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:08,760 Speaker 1: when they start to finish college and look to joining 315 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 1: the workforce. They discover that guess what, mom knows a 316 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 1: lot about the ins and outs of getting hired, getting promoted, 317 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 1: getting noticed, and she's hugely networked and can not only 318 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:25,960 Speaker 1: arrange critical introductions, but she can be a career coach 319 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:31,480 Speaker 1: at preparing the daughter for a job interview, revamping the resume, 320 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:36,040 Speaker 1: being the go to person when the first time they 321 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:39,919 Speaker 1: run into a huge issue on the job. There's this 322 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 1: great example where this adult daughter of the boomer mom 323 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:46,720 Speaker 1: essentially summons her mother, who's the CEO of a major 324 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:49,479 Speaker 1: business unit at a big company, out of a meeting 325 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 1: because the daughter has been told she has to discipline 326 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:56,239 Speaker 1: one of her direct reports, and she's never had to 327 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:59,720 Speaker 1: do that before. She's a first time supervisor, and she's terrified. 328 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 1: She tells somebody that they're not cutting the mustard. Well, 329 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:06,240 Speaker 1: mom would be very helpful in that. I'm sure one 330 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 1: of the things you you know, C suite moms, CEO 331 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:15,760 Speaker 1: moms clearly have resources that are not necessarily available to 332 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:18,919 Speaker 1: everyone who's attempting to build a career and raise a 333 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:21,359 Speaker 1: family at the same time. And yet you note that 334 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 1: the affluence doesn't necessarily exempt you from these work life struggles. 335 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:29,359 Speaker 1: And why is that. I mean, I think a lot 336 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:32,600 Speaker 1: of people assume that if you have the resources to 337 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 1: you know, hire nannies, get your house cleaned, you have 338 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:39,960 Speaker 1: no problems. And you're saying that's not true. Well, that 339 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:43,399 Speaker 1: is exactly the point that I make in Power Moms. 340 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 1: You know, if it's still hard for these women of 341 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 1: privilege to make this work, just multiply that ten, twenty fifty, 342 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:57,119 Speaker 1: one hundred times. You know, for the single mom who's 343 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:03,120 Speaker 1: working maybe two jobs, they're both minimum wage and has 344 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:07,159 Speaker 1: you know, little resourcess to fall back on. And the 345 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:11,679 Speaker 1: reason it remains difficult in different ways for these women 346 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:15,480 Speaker 1: of affluence goes back to this whole notion of the 347 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:21,119 Speaker 1: fact that we have unconscious biases and gendered expectations as 348 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 1: to the roles that women will play in the home. Plus, 349 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:28,680 Speaker 1: the men don't get a lot of support from their 350 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:32,720 Speaker 1: male colleagues for wanting to be highly involved dads, and 351 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:38,160 Speaker 1: so they too are not necessarily there when needed or 352 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:42,119 Speaker 1: you know, keeping track of this or that appointment, or 353 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 1: knowing the pediatrician's name and phone number. And so the 354 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:49,879 Speaker 1: whole idea here is what we are evolving as a society. 355 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 1: We've come so far, you know, from what the baby 356 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:57,720 Speaker 1: boomer moms we're experiencing when they entered the workforce and 357 00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:00,399 Speaker 1: when they started having kids. But we still have a 358 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:02,760 Speaker 1: long way to go. And the way to make it 359 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:08,919 Speaker 1: happen faster is to have employers recognize the needs of 360 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:11,960 Speaker 1: not just working moms, but the needs of working parents, 361 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 1: and more broadly of the need to have maximum flexibility 362 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:19,119 Speaker 1: and how you treat your employees. Because everybody's got a 363 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 1: life outside of work, whether it's children, dogs, elderly parents, 364 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:26,480 Speaker 1: or whatever. So I wonder if you could talk a 365 00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:30,399 Speaker 1: little bit about work life sway, because this is a 366 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,640 Speaker 1: phrase I hadn't heard used before, but it's that part 367 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 1: of you know, modern technology enables us to go in 368 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:40,080 Speaker 1: and out of work and life rules, and so that 369 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:43,560 Speaker 1: changes the equation a lot. How is this playing out 370 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:47,080 Speaker 1: in people's lives now? Well, it's also a phrase I 371 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:49,720 Speaker 1: had never heard of, but I became so enamored of 372 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:51,919 Speaker 1: it that I wanted it to be the subtitle of 373 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:54,919 Speaker 1: the book. I wanted the original title to be Power 374 00:21:55,000 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 1: Mom Secrets for Practicing Work Life Sway, and the publishers like, uh, 375 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:05,280 Speaker 1: nobody knows what that is exactly. Those were her words. 376 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:08,080 Speaker 1: She's like, nobody will say, all right, what is sway? 377 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 1: Define it for us then? And I was introduced to 378 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:14,400 Speaker 1: this concept by the very first you know, younger generation 379 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:18,159 Speaker 1: executive mother that I interviewed for the book. And so 380 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:21,320 Speaker 1: the whole idea here is that work life balance is 381 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:27,919 Speaker 1: a completely impossible ideal. It's like maintaining a yoga pose 382 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:31,600 Speaker 1: for twenty four hours on one foot. And so because 383 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:34,520 Speaker 1: we know that work life balance is an impossible ideal, 384 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:39,480 Speaker 1: we instead aspire to practice work life's way. And that's 385 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:44,720 Speaker 1: the concept that when we have to be totally there 386 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 1: for our job, will be one hundred and ten percent 387 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 1: in the moment focused on that work task. But if 388 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:56,800 Speaker 1: life such as the needs of children in truths, we're 389 00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:58,800 Speaker 1: not going to get all bent out of shape. We're 390 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:00,600 Speaker 1: going to go with the flow and we're going to 391 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:04,720 Speaker 1: sway to that part of the focus of our life. 392 00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:08,240 Speaker 1: And when we end up working from home all of 393 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:11,119 Speaker 1: a sudden, we have to be playing work life Sway 394 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:14,360 Speaker 1: lots of times during the day and not get all 395 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 1: bent out of shape and instead be willing to go 396 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:20,760 Speaker 1: with the flow, but perhaps invest in some really high 397 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:24,639 Speaker 1: quality noise canceling headphones. That is definitely something that a 398 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 1: lot of people are feeling the need for now. But 399 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:30,200 Speaker 1: you know, technology is kind of this this double edged sword, 400 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:32,280 Speaker 1: because you know, one thing I see that a lot 401 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:34,320 Speaker 1: of people are able to do is leave the office 402 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:36,240 Speaker 1: at you know, back when people went to offices, but 403 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:38,840 Speaker 1: leave the office at a reasonable time, go home, spend 404 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 1: the evening with their families, do more work at night 405 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:43,119 Speaker 1: after the kids go to bed in a way that 406 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 1: would have been far more difficult before the advent of 407 00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:50,080 Speaker 1: laptops and cell phones. And you know, high speed internet 408 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:52,439 Speaker 1: connection from the house. I mean, where do you come 409 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:54,640 Speaker 1: out in this? You know, is it good? Is it bad? 410 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:57,919 Speaker 1: Is it both? It's a mixture of both, I can 411 00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:03,280 Speaker 1: tell you. You know, dial up was slow when we 412 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:06,160 Speaker 1: first got it at home, and so you were actually 413 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 1: inclined to stay late at the office if you had 414 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:11,760 Speaker 1: tasks to complete. And you know that meant that you 415 00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:14,040 Speaker 1: didn't get to see your kids for very much if 416 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:17,760 Speaker 1: you had to work late. Thanks to advances in technology 417 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:22,520 Speaker 1: is another reason why these younger executive moms are able 418 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:27,320 Speaker 1: to flourish on their jobs and with their families. But 419 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:31,440 Speaker 1: it comes at a price, and that is you can 420 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:36,200 Speaker 1: be always on. There were several of these women in 421 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:40,600 Speaker 1: their thirties and early forties who not only keep their 422 00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:43,200 Speaker 1: cell phone on, but they sleep with it by their 423 00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:46,680 Speaker 1: bed or even under their pillows. That seems like it 424 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 1: would be slightly uncomfortable, not to mention when it rains 425 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:53,000 Speaker 1: at two o'clock in the morning, but they want to 426 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:57,520 Speaker 1: be reachable. No, The whole idea here in practicing work 427 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 1: Life's way is that you too who to be where 428 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 1: you're putting the focus of your attention, and if necessary, 429 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:10,280 Speaker 1: you draw boundaries, okay when when appropriate, and that does 430 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 1: mean you turn off the darn phone and you certainly 431 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:18,280 Speaker 1: don't sleep with it under your pillow exactly. So I 432 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:22,160 Speaker 1: enjoyed one particular, you know, reading the book and reading 433 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:25,440 Speaker 1: about your career, the various decisions you made along the way. 434 00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:28,679 Speaker 1: So you were willing to move your family to London. 435 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:31,399 Speaker 1: You know that family could relocate with you, but on 436 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:33,800 Speaker 1: the other hand, you were not. You wound up not 437 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:37,680 Speaker 1: going into space. There was a potential to be a 438 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,600 Speaker 1: journalist going into outer space. So let's talk about what 439 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 1: is outer space? Not? Okay? Moving the family to London 440 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:47,800 Speaker 1: was okay, Well, the distance was a little bit less 441 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,399 Speaker 1: to go to London, although I have to tell you, 442 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 1: you know, our older child, who was then seven, Our 443 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:57,359 Speaker 1: son was very upset, did not want to leave the 444 00:25:57,440 --> 00:25:59,920 Speaker 1: only home he had ever known his entire life. You know, 445 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 1: his second grade elementary school was two blocks away. You know. 446 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:07,399 Speaker 1: He basically locked himself in his room and announced that 447 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:10,200 Speaker 1: he wasn't going. And we said, well, we're selling the 448 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:12,879 Speaker 1: home and he yelled back, you'll have to sell me 449 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:17,920 Speaker 1: with it going into space. Yes, So how we dealt 450 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:20,120 Speaker 1: with that. I sent my husband in to go deal 451 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:22,600 Speaker 1: with Dan. It was more than I could handle. And 452 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:25,440 Speaker 1: he told Dan that he should look upon this as 453 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:29,560 Speaker 1: a four year vacation. And Dan said, oh, okay, so 454 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:31,760 Speaker 1: when we come back from London, when we come back 455 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:35,080 Speaker 1: to our house, and his father said, no, but we'll 456 00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:38,159 Speaker 1: come back to an even better house, and then he 457 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:40,680 Speaker 1: was willing to move. Our daughter was only three and 458 00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:44,200 Speaker 1: a half when I got the promotion. She didn't really understand. 459 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 1: She told people that we had to fly to London 460 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:48,840 Speaker 1: because it was too far to drive, and that when 461 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:50,639 Speaker 1: she got there she was going to have tea with 462 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:56,360 Speaker 1: the Queen. Fast forward, Fast forward, when we moved back 463 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,160 Speaker 1: to New York. She's the same age as her brother 464 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:03,520 Speaker 1: had been when we left London, the same hysterics. How 465 00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:05,800 Speaker 1: can you take me away from the only home I 466 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:10,480 Speaker 1: ever remember? Blah blah blah blah. So, in terms of 467 00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:13,200 Speaker 1: your original question, which was about out of space, there 468 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:17,160 Speaker 1: was a competition held long before I got the opportunity 469 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:19,120 Speaker 1: to move to London, where they were going to pick 470 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:22,480 Speaker 1: a journalist to be an astronaut. And I thought this 471 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:26,399 Speaker 1: would be really, really cool, and the kids did too 472 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:28,399 Speaker 1: when I first told them about it. I never got 473 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,159 Speaker 1: as far as, frankly, as filling out the application because 474 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:33,320 Speaker 1: they I then had to explain to them that I 475 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 1: would be gone not for you know, one or two days, 476 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 1: which I occasionally did for reporting trips, but probably for 477 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:42,040 Speaker 1: weeks and months to be trained to be an astronaut, 478 00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:45,920 Speaker 1: and that was not something that they were willing to accept, 479 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:48,639 Speaker 1: and I realized it wasn't something I was willing to 480 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:53,040 Speaker 1: accept either. But frankly, my chances of getting chosen would 481 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:56,160 Speaker 1: have been slimmed and none. So it wasn't a hard 482 00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,879 Speaker 1: dream to put back into the Let's dream about it 483 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 1: at night and not do it during the day. Well, 484 00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:06,320 Speaker 1: you know, I can't say that I'd be really excited 485 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:10,480 Speaker 1: to get on a rocket either, So that will probably 486 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:14,439 Speaker 1: not be part of my career plans either. So, Duanne, 487 00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:17,440 Speaker 1: we always end our interviews with a love of the week. 488 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:22,200 Speaker 1: So something that has been exciting for you lately? What's 489 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:24,880 Speaker 1: really cool in your life right now? Well, I think 490 00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:27,760 Speaker 1: the most exciting thing that has happened to me lately 491 00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 1: is that the Wall Street Journal, where I remain a 492 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:35,320 Speaker 1: regular contributor, not only chose to publish an excerpt from 493 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:40,360 Speaker 1: my book, an excerpt that described ways to ditch working 494 00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 1: mother Guilt, but they highlighted it with a promotional blurb 495 00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:49,480 Speaker 1: on the front page of the journal, and it featured 496 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:53,680 Speaker 1: the photo that ran with the excerpt and my name 497 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:58,200 Speaker 1: and the description of the book using the subtitle, which 498 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:02,560 Speaker 1: said something to the effect of Joanne s. Lublin talks 499 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:06,560 Speaker 1: about how executive mothers navigate work in life. And so 500 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 1: getting back on page one of the Journal having not 501 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 1: been there for a couple of years was pretty exciting. 502 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:14,640 Speaker 1: It's always good to be all right, well, we have 503 00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:17,840 Speaker 1: to go really quickly into all right, are we going 504 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:19,840 Speaker 1: to ditch the work mom guilt? Like you have the 505 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:23,680 Speaker 1: answer to that? Oh, absolutely, and I think the younger 506 00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 1: women have come up with some pretty clever approaches, ranging 507 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:32,480 Speaker 1: from essentially taking one or two days vacation every quarter 508 00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:36,920 Speaker 1: as mama days and spending each of those days with 509 00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:40,640 Speaker 1: one of your children, to making sure that you set 510 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:44,600 Speaker 1: aside me time. You know, whether it's two hours every 511 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:49,200 Speaker 1: Sunday morning, and your partner or husband or wife is 512 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:52,360 Speaker 1: in charge of the kids and you have total time 513 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:55,880 Speaker 1: to yourself. These are lots of ways of ditching working 514 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 1: mother guilt. Sounds good, well, Joanne, Thank you so much 515 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:02,400 Speaker 1: for joining as and our listeners can check out Power 516 00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:06,000 Speaker 1: Moms how executive mothers navigate work and life. Thanks for 517 00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 1: joining us, Thanks for having me. That was awesome. And 518 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:14,680 Speaker 1: now we are going to go to our Q and A. 519 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:17,240 Speaker 1: And this one was sent in by Diane. This is 520 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:19,680 Speaker 1: a fairly long question, so I will try to abridge 521 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:22,320 Speaker 1: it a little bit. Oh. Actually, I have an announcement 522 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 1: that I didn't put on here. If you would like 523 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:28,560 Speaker 1: to leave a vocal question, there's a link on my blog. 524 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:30,600 Speaker 1: It's actually under the best Laid Plans page, but I 525 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:32,480 Speaker 1: will put it on the best of Both Worlds page 526 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:34,479 Speaker 1: as well, so that if you would like to hear 527 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:38,000 Speaker 1: your voice on this podcast, then you could actually click 528 00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:41,640 Speaker 1: on that link and send in a audio question. Okay. Sorry, 529 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:43,880 Speaker 1: that was a surprise for Laura, but exciting to have 530 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:46,360 Speaker 1: that capability. I could use it for either podcast. Okay, 531 00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:49,120 Speaker 1: So the question is, I've been trying to track my 532 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:52,120 Speaker 1: time while unemployed, and I'm finding that there are sometimes 533 00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:54,440 Speaker 1: large chunks of my day that I don't have any 534 00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:56,880 Speaker 1: recollection of what I was doing. Usually they are the 535 00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:58,720 Speaker 1: one or two hour chunks that can be summed up 536 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:01,840 Speaker 1: as putter and watch kids, and sometimes it literally says 537 00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:04,640 Speaker 1: that on my log I don't feel great about these chunks, 538 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:06,360 Speaker 1: and I'm not sure if I need to shift my 539 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:09,000 Speaker 1: thinking about my time or do I actually just need 540 00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 1: better strategies for what I do with my time when 541 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:14,560 Speaker 1: I'm with my kids. My kids are nine, three, and one. 542 00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:17,960 Speaker 1: My nine year old needs some distance learning supervision to 543 00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:20,120 Speaker 1: stay on track, but the three year old is pretty 544 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:22,800 Speaker 1: good about playing by themselves. But since they've taken them 545 00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:25,440 Speaker 1: out of preschool because of COVID and because of the 546 00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:28,480 Speaker 1: mom being unemployed, currently they're doing about thirty to forty 547 00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:31,760 Speaker 1: five minutes of preschool curriculum per day. They're one year 548 00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:35,840 Speaker 1: old alternates between clinging barnacle and destructive terror, and does 549 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:39,720 Speaker 1: not nap consistently, which is all to say. I find 550 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:41,280 Speaker 1: myself with lots of times when I have to be 551 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:45,320 Speaker 1: vigilant but not necessarily interactive. She's thinking, there must be 552 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 1: more I can do right now. At times, I have 553 00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:49,360 Speaker 1: projects I want to work on. I've started a blog, 554 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:51,960 Speaker 1: I sign up for online classes. None of these things 555 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,479 Speaker 1: are really related to my job career, and they all 556 00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:56,520 Speaker 1: feel like vanity projects. But there are things I would 557 00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:59,440 Speaker 1: like to be spending my time doing, so I feel 558 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:01,480 Speaker 1: like I'm stuck between a narrative that being a mother 559 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:03,440 Speaker 1: is enough and an alternative one that we can fit 560 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:06,120 Speaker 1: everything into our lives if we prioritize and are efficient 561 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:10,680 Speaker 1: with our time. Here's an interesting sentence I'm going to include. Ironically, 562 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:12,680 Speaker 1: I felt happier with how I used my time when 563 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:15,400 Speaker 1: I was working sixty hours a week. I know you 564 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:17,320 Speaker 1: guys usually deal with issues of work in life, but 565 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:18,880 Speaker 1: wondering if either of you have thoughts as to what 566 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:21,720 Speaker 1: the balance is when one isn't working and just being 567 00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:26,000 Speaker 1: a full time parent. We thought this was a great question. Yeah, well, 568 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:28,400 Speaker 1: and even if you are working, if you have a 569 00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:30,560 Speaker 1: one year old, I mean, you have many hours of 570 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:33,800 Speaker 1: small child vigilance on your schedule, and yes, it is 571 00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:36,800 Speaker 1: tough to use it for much of anything, though again 572 00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:39,080 Speaker 1: the kid and I totally get what she's saying, Like 573 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 1: the kid will play independently for a while, like you 574 00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:43,840 Speaker 1: are just sort of sitting there watching them, and you're like, well, 575 00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:46,120 Speaker 1: I could use this time to do something. But then, 576 00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:48,520 Speaker 1: of course, you know, then they try to wander off 577 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:51,320 Speaker 1: and fall into a door, and you know, to watch 578 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:54,080 Speaker 1: and so you can't really get involved in anything, but 579 00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:55,560 Speaker 1: you feel like you could do something, So of course 580 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:57,080 Speaker 1: what do we do. We wind up scrolling around on 581 00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:00,280 Speaker 1: Instagram and then feeling like, eh, you know, like life 582 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,720 Speaker 1: is passing me by as I am looking at people's 583 00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 1: carefully posed family photos and matching shirts. Right, so just 584 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:12,200 Speaker 1: to say, we totally get it. Sympathized. And you know, 585 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:14,680 Speaker 1: whether this is because you are actively you know, your 586 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:17,000 Speaker 1: job searching, or you're you know, taking some time out 587 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:19,680 Speaker 1: while your job has ended for a bit, or if 588 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:22,840 Speaker 1: you're just this is what you spend your weekends doing, Like, yes, 589 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:24,880 Speaker 1: this is this is part of the nature of having 590 00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 1: one year olds, and we're there with you. Totally there 591 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:33,480 Speaker 1: with you. I would say that it's probably more mental 592 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:35,360 Speaker 1: than anything else. I think she should make herself a 593 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:38,280 Speaker 1: very very short list of things other than one year 594 00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:40,800 Speaker 1: old care that she wants to do on any given day, 595 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:43,840 Speaker 1: and after she has done, let's say those three things, 596 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:46,720 Speaker 1: to just relax, Like, if anything else happened, it's great, 597 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:50,960 Speaker 1: But the feeling pulled in multiple directions and feeling unhappy 598 00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:53,720 Speaker 1: is largely an expectations game. Like if she feels like 599 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:55,320 Speaker 1: she's going to be doing a million other things and 600 00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:57,080 Speaker 1: she's not because she's taking care of the one year old, 601 00:33:57,400 --> 00:33:59,520 Speaker 1: then she's gonna be unhappy. Whereas if she's like, Okay, 602 00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:01,400 Speaker 1: I just need to get these three things done today, 603 00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:04,600 Speaker 1: she'll do those because I mean, presumably the one year 604 00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:07,280 Speaker 1: old does nap at some point, even if it's inconsistently. 605 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:11,680 Speaker 1: She has a significant other, so that person is working 606 00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:14,440 Speaker 1: full time for sure, but can also you know, contribute 607 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:16,919 Speaker 1: some on the evenings or early mornings or weekends or whatever, 608 00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:19,560 Speaker 1: so she can have some time to do things. But 609 00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:22,400 Speaker 1: just keeping that really really low and then having something 610 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:23,800 Speaker 1: that just gets them out of the house to do 611 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:25,600 Speaker 1: something a little bit different so you don't feel like 612 00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:29,600 Speaker 1: you're constantly just watching your kid play on the same 613 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:32,960 Speaker 1: toy kitchen as you're scrolling around on Instagram. It can 614 00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:35,680 Speaker 1: help you feel better. Yeah, that's so true. I don't 615 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:37,560 Speaker 1: think I have that much to add except that you 616 00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:40,440 Speaker 1: know that it is such a I think. I think 617 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:42,120 Speaker 1: the age of her kids says a lot. I think 618 00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:44,800 Speaker 1: if the nine year old's probably not that much of 619 00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:47,640 Speaker 1: a factor, but having a three although if the nine 620 00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:49,720 Speaker 1: year old is, I think you said, doing online school 621 00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:51,920 Speaker 1: that kind of structures the day and sticks you in 622 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:53,839 Speaker 1: the house. And now you're stuck physically in the house 623 00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:56,279 Speaker 1: with your three and one year old, which kind of 624 00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:59,239 Speaker 1: adds to the stress perhaps, But having a three and 625 00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:03,600 Speaker 1: one year old a very difficult and trying combo. And 626 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:08,759 Speaker 1: I think that puttering around and surviving and waiting for 627 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:11,120 Speaker 1: it to be over is sort of, to some extent, 628 00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:13,440 Speaker 1: just part of how it is for many of us. 629 00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:18,000 Speaker 1: But it does get better, like relatively quickly, and that's 630 00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:20,120 Speaker 1: no souls while you're in it. I get it, I 631 00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:23,320 Speaker 1: remember it, but it's like, I mean, my kids aren't 632 00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:25,000 Speaker 1: that much older, but I already feel like it's like 633 00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:27,839 Speaker 1: ninety thousand times, like I can do a lot more 634 00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:30,839 Speaker 1: when they are occupied than I could just two years ago. 635 00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:33,000 Speaker 1: And you will be able to too, yep, because you're 636 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:34,400 Speaker 1: gonna have a three year old and a five year 637 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:36,759 Speaker 1: old and two years so there we go, and a 638 00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:38,359 Speaker 1: four year old and six year old in three years 639 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:41,560 Speaker 1: and so that will open up a lot. So we'll 640 00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:43,160 Speaker 1: do our love of the Week now. I did ask 641 00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:44,799 Speaker 1: Joanne for her Love of the Week at the end 642 00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:46,400 Speaker 1: of the interview, but I'm pretty sure I forgot to 643 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:49,880 Speaker 1: give mine, so Sarah will. This gives us an opportunity 644 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:53,560 Speaker 1: to have Sarah do hers as well. Yes, So I 645 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:57,400 Speaker 1: really like the face masks from ag Jeans, which is 646 00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:00,160 Speaker 1: really funny because they're a designer jeans company. But I 647 00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:02,399 Speaker 1: got one of their masks free with a jeans order 648 00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:03,960 Speaker 1: and was like, this is a great mask, and then 649 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:05,719 Speaker 1: looked up and I'm like, oh, you can also buy these, 650 00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:07,960 Speaker 1: And now I have like four of them, and I 651 00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:10,920 Speaker 1: either wear them like alone, and they're like nice and breathable, 652 00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:13,840 Speaker 1: and you know, in a lower situation it's great. Or 653 00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:15,279 Speaker 1: if I'm at work and I feel like I need 654 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:17,880 Speaker 1: to show that I'm being more conservative, I put on 655 00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:21,160 Speaker 1: a surgical mask under it, and then that's kind of 656 00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:24,399 Speaker 1: a nice comfortable combo and they're great. So the face 657 00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:28,239 Speaker 1: masks from ag Jeans. I will put a plug in 658 00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:31,800 Speaker 1: here for a previous sponsor of this podcast, the Creola 659 00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:35,440 Speaker 1: School Mask Pack. They sent us our first pack, Freddy 660 00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:37,840 Speaker 1: back when we were advertising for them, and I have 661 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:41,759 Speaker 1: kept buying them because Alex will wear them and he 662 00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:44,040 Speaker 1: has to wear masks obviously all day at school. He's 663 00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:46,719 Speaker 1: in full time school, five days a week. I was 664 00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:52,040 Speaker 1: so nervous about this idea of like my energetic kindergartener. 665 00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:55,640 Speaker 1: You know, he will throw down a fight about like 666 00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:58,239 Speaker 1: eating an apple. So I'm like, oh my god, how 667 00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:00,680 Speaker 1: am I going to keep a mask on his face 668 00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:04,160 Speaker 1: all day? And he has not set a peep about it. 669 00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:06,400 Speaker 1: He likes them, he wears them, he's got his favorite colors. 670 00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:09,040 Speaker 1: So that's that's my love of the week there. It 671 00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:11,799 Speaker 1: certainly made my life easier. We'll see though, if we're 672 00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:14,120 Speaker 1: out of this by you know, everyone's like, oh, under 673 00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:16,200 Speaker 1: two right, and I'm like, oh, yeah, under two. I 674 00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:19,960 Speaker 1: have a baby. I'm like, wait, in ten months, he 675 00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:23,680 Speaker 1: won't be under two, but maybe you won't need a 676 00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:26,520 Speaker 1: maky maybe we'll be back to normal by then. But 677 00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:28,279 Speaker 1: you know, maybe I can convince him to wear one 678 00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:30,440 Speaker 1: and crowded situations and I'll never have a baby with 679 00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:34,000 Speaker 1: a cold again. It'll be fun. We buy the same ones, 680 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:36,480 Speaker 1: and that lends credence to our theory that most of 681 00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:38,600 Speaker 1: our sponsors just want to make us customers, and they 682 00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:41,799 Speaker 1: earn as much from our own purchases they do. Oh 683 00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:47,200 Speaker 1: my gosh, the money I spend on sun Basket now anyway, 684 00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:49,880 Speaker 1: all right, well, this has been best of both worlds. 685 00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:52,560 Speaker 1: We've been talking with joe Anne Lublin about power Moms, 686 00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:55,880 Speaker 1: also about camp spreadsheets and how to deal with long 687 00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:57,839 Speaker 1: hours with a one year old and three year old. 688 00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:00,279 Speaker 1: So we will be back next week with more on 689 00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:04,840 Speaker 1: making work and life fit together. Thanks for listening. You 690 00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:08,040 Speaker 1: can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com or 691 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:12,040 Speaker 1: at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, and you can find 692 00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:16,239 Speaker 1: me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This has been 693 00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:19,640 Speaker 1: the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join us next 694 00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:22,800 Speaker 1: time for more on making work and life work together.