1
00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,360
Speaker 1: This is Dana Perkins and you're listening to Switched on

2
00:00:02,640 --> 00:00:06,120
Speaker 1: the BNAF podcast. Today we have an interview recorded at

3
00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:10,320
Speaker 1: the BNAF New York Summit with Jiggershaw. He's an entrepreneur

4
00:00:10,360 --> 00:00:13,960
Speaker 1: that founded sun Edison, a pioneer in building clean energy

5
00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:17,120
Speaker 1: projects for large companies. He later went on to found

6
00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:20,240
Speaker 1: the Carbon war Room with Richard Branson, and most recently

7
00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:23,599
Speaker 1: he was the co founder and former president at Generate Capital,

8
00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:27,840
Speaker 1: involved in financing sustainable infrastructure projects. But away from business,

9
00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:30,800
Speaker 1: he's also an author and a podcaster, and for the

10
00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:34,120
Speaker 1: US government, he worked for the Department of Energy before

11
00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:37,320
Speaker 1: being appointed the Director of the Loan Program's Office in

12
00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:40,000
Speaker 1: twenty twenty one, which is what he's doing now. Senior

13
00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:42,880
Speaker 1: editor at bn EF, Van de Na Goombar sat down

14
00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:45,680
Speaker 1: for a chat with Jigger. Together, they discuss the current

15
00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:49,360
Speaker 1: DOE programs and loans that are available to help companies

16
00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:52,640
Speaker 1: with their clean energy transition. They also discussed the application

17
00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:56,040
Speaker 1: process and what's expected of applicants regardless of the size

18
00:00:56,080 --> 00:00:58,440
Speaker 1: of their company, and they debate whether or not the

19
00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:02,400
Speaker 1: utilities company's rate or customers should front the costs for

20
00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:06,440
Speaker 1: the new transmission capacity that's required. If you like this podcast,

21
00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:09,640
Speaker 1: make sure to subscribe to receive updates for future episodes,

22
00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:12,600
Speaker 1: and if you're listening to us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify,

23
00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:16,440
Speaker 1: consider giving us a review. For more information about BNF's

24
00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:19,160
Speaker 1: summit like the one that this episode was recorded at,

25
00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:23,039
Speaker 1: head to about dot bn ef dot com forward slash Summit.

26
00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:25,520
Speaker 1: There you're going to be able to see the agendas

27
00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:28,920
Speaker 1: and also videos from this event and other previous events.

28
00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:32,360
Speaker 1: Please note, bn EF does not provide investment or strategy advice,

29
00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:34,360
Speaker 1: and we've got a complete disclaimer that can be found

30
00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:36,479
Speaker 1: at the very end of the show. But right now

31
00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:38,880
Speaker 1: we're going to get to vandanas chat with Jiggershaw.

32
00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:51,200
Speaker 2: Okay, so let me just get the headline numbers out

33
00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:53,920
Speaker 2: of the way first before I ask you the other questions.

34
00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:56,560
Speaker 2: How much do you have available to land today?

35
00:01:56,760 --> 00:01:59,640
Speaker 3: It's upwards of four hundred billion dollars that we have

36
00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:04,320
Speaker 3: to learn today across our three original programs. So that's

37
00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:07,600
Speaker 3: the Innovative Clean Energy program that we did, solar and

38
00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:12,079
Speaker 3: wind in geothermalt of the Advanced Technology Vehicle Manufacturing program,

39
00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:15,560
Speaker 3: which is the one they got Tesla for Nissan, and

40
00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:17,880
Speaker 3: then we have the Tribal Energy Loan Program. So across

41
00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:20,959
Speaker 3: those three programs we have about one hundred and sixty

42
00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:23,880
Speaker 3: billion dollars and those are our three oldest programs. Then

43
00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:28,280
Speaker 3: we have a new program called the Energy Infrastructure Reinvestment Program.

44
00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:31,680
Speaker 3: Really helped to design to help like utility companies and

45
00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:34,919
Speaker 3: other owners of existing assets make the transition from coal

46
00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:37,799
Speaker 3: to nuclear, coal to soil plus storage, or we do

47
00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:40,880
Speaker 3: some pipelines that are currently natural gas and converting it

48
00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:43,680
Speaker 3: to CO two or hydrogen. So we're very excited about

49
00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:46,560
Speaker 3: those programs. And then we also have the SOFIA program,

50
00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:48,120
Speaker 3: which is CO two trunk lines.

51
00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:51,000
Speaker 2: So what part of this was the IRA jump?

52
00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:53,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, so we had about forty four billion dollars of

53
00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:56,519
Speaker 3: total loan authority before the IRA, and then we got

54
00:02:56,720 --> 00:03:00,440
Speaker 3: one hundred plus two fifty in the IRA. In the

55
00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:03,440
Speaker 3: omnibus bill for twenty twenty three, we got an additional

56
00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:06,320
Speaker 3: fifteen billion for the Innovative Clean Energy Program.

57
00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:09,600
Speaker 2: Brilliant. So the last time you spoke, the last time

58
00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:13,160
Speaker 2: we spoke, Yeah, you were talking about amplifying the message

59
00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:16,079
Speaker 2: that here is a part of money, come and take it,

60
00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:18,560
Speaker 2: and you were talking to a lot of people who

61
00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:22,240
Speaker 2: would be eligible a lot of prospects who would be eligible,

62
00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:25,040
Speaker 2: and I guess that was phase one of your programmer.

63
00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:29,880
Speaker 2: Are you still doing that amplification process or is that done?

64
00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:32,960
Speaker 2: Everyone knows what the DOELPO does.

65
00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:34,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, you would think so.

66
00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:38,240
Speaker 3: I mean, we've done a lot of interviews and a

67
00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:40,320
Speaker 3: lot of podcasts other things. But I would say that

68
00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:43,600
Speaker 3: we're continuing to meet people every day who don't know

69
00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:46,680
Speaker 3: about the Loan Program's office but are perfect candidates for

70
00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:49,160
Speaker 3: our program. And so I think, you know, we've hired

71
00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:52,880
Speaker 3: an additional forty people or so into our outreaching business

72
00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:57,080
Speaker 3: development group, and now we're covering way more conferences in sectors,

73
00:03:57,080 --> 00:03:59,520
Speaker 3: which is wonderful. And you know, we're talking to probably

74
00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:02,200
Speaker 3: about a how for trillion dollars worth of projects today.

75
00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:04,680
Speaker 3: That number probably needs to get closer to a trillion

76
00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:07,040
Speaker 3: dollars with the projects over the next year or so.

77
00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:09,120
Speaker 3: So we're constantly pounding the pavement. But the other piece

78
00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:11,400
Speaker 3: I would say is that what's happened since we last

79
00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:13,600
Speaker 3: talked was that we've gotten a lot of these conditional

80
00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:16,200
Speaker 3: commitments out the door and then we've closed loans. Right, So,

81
00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:18,599
Speaker 3: there were a lot of people who were just very

82
00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:22,360
Speaker 3: conservative and saying until you've closed more of these loans,

83
00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:24,560
Speaker 3: we're just not going to lean in with your office.

84
00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:26,920
Speaker 3: And now that we've closed loans and we've gotten a

85
00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:30,159
Speaker 3: lot more visibility around the process, I think people are

86
00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:32,839
Speaker 3: feeling far more comfortable expending.

87
00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:36,280
Speaker 4: Resources to go through our office. So that's also very validating.

88
00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:40,280
Speaker 2: Are you happy with the pace of approvals, because that

89
00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:43,159
Speaker 2: was also something that you mentioned that you want the

90
00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:46,320
Speaker 2: office to be like more agile and track the time

91
00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:49,600
Speaker 2: it takes between an application and approval, and that was

92
00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:51,920
Speaker 2: one of the things that you yeh, trying to address.

93
00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:54,480
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm never happy, right, I mean, that's that's

94
00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:57,200
Speaker 3: part of my personality. So I always think we can

95
00:04:57,240 --> 00:04:59,200
Speaker 3: do better, and I think my team thinks it can

96
00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:01,040
Speaker 3: do better, and we can continue to keep trying to

97
00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:03,400
Speaker 3: find ways to improve. But I do think that at

98
00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:06,320
Speaker 3: this point we have hit an absolute standard, which is

99
00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:10,279
Speaker 3: about in line with the commercial sector. So in general,

100
00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:14,760
Speaker 3: these really complicated technology heavy loans take sort of six

101
00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:16,880
Speaker 3: to nine months to get through the private sector, and

102
00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:19,680
Speaker 3: I'd say we do them in like eight to ten months,

103
00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:21,640
Speaker 3: which is right around the same amount of time. So

104
00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:23,800
Speaker 3: I think in general we're quite proud of that I

105
00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:25,880
Speaker 3: think there's lots of ways we can improve and get

106
00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:28,320
Speaker 3: even more efficient. The other challenge I would say is

107
00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:31,240
Speaker 3: that our ecosystem continues to be weak. And so if

108
00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:34,080
Speaker 3: you're an applicant who's just raised four her million dollars

109
00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:36,000
Speaker 3: and you want to pay someone to help you get

110
00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:38,680
Speaker 3: through the office, those teams are not very well set

111
00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:41,760
Speaker 3: up at PwC or Deloitte or you know, KPMG or

112
00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:44,160
Speaker 3: some of the law firms or other places like they

113
00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:47,840
Speaker 3: just they atrophied over ten years of dormancy for our program,

114
00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:50,960
Speaker 3: and they've started the process of ramping back up over

115
00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:53,120
Speaker 3: the last two years, but they're not there yet. And

116
00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:58,080
Speaker 3: so for many of our ecosystem partners, they're overwhelmed with business,

117
00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:00,839
Speaker 3: and so we need ten or twenty more firms to

118
00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:04,800
Speaker 3: set up an LPO division to help applicants get through

119
00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:07,640
Speaker 3: our office. Because for some of these applicants, they're experts

120
00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:10,280
Speaker 3: at raising equity and they have an equity forward CFO,

121
00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:13,200
Speaker 3: but that equity forward CFO has never raised this much

122
00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:15,880
Speaker 3: commercial debt. They've never put together a data room, they've

123
00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:19,479
Speaker 3: never answered questions from a debt perspective, and so for

124
00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:22,160
Speaker 3: some of those applicants, it's taking them a lot longer

125
00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:24,560
Speaker 3: than it should because they're just not used to the process.

126
00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:29,200
Speaker 2: My understanding was the kind of support that you provide

127
00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:33,080
Speaker 2: loans and loan guarantees, it's kind of not available in

128
00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:36,039
Speaker 2: the private sector space. But it's interesting that you're comparing

129
00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:38,799
Speaker 2: your timelines to the private sector players.

130
00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:41,880
Speaker 3: I agree with you that in general they're not comparable

131
00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:43,640
Speaker 3: per se. They're not really competing with us, and we

132
00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:46,120
Speaker 3: would never want to compete with the commercial sector. But

133
00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:49,279
Speaker 3: when you look at like Centender and their leading of

134
00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:52,440
Speaker 3: the Vineyard wind proposal, that deal took over a year

135
00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:54,920
Speaker 3: to close, and so I do think there are some

136
00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:57,559
Speaker 3: of these complicated deals that the bank does when they've

137
00:06:57,560 --> 00:06:59,960
Speaker 3: got very high profile clients that force them to do

138
00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:03,520
Speaker 3: the deal, and those deals are complicated and they take

139
00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:06,360
Speaker 3: a long time to close. I'm comparing us to those deals.

140
00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:08,640
Speaker 3: But for many of the companies that use our office,

141
00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:11,320
Speaker 3: these are growth companies who don't have some sort of

142
00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:14,080
Speaker 3: like inside guy at a bank. We become their inside guy.

143
00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:15,960
Speaker 3: Like we The goal for us is to try to

144
00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:19,240
Speaker 3: make this a more fair process so that everybody can take.

145
00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:19,680
Speaker 4: Advantage of this.

146
00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:23,200
Speaker 2: You've often spoken about I don't know if you've spoken

147
00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:26,160
Speaker 2: about it or write wait about it. Bridge to bankability,

148
00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:30,320
Speaker 2: that's the that's the gap that you fail. I wanted

149
00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:33,560
Speaker 2: to ask you, which are the sectors where you feel

150
00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:37,640
Speaker 2: that the requirement of this bridge to bankability is more sturgent.

151
00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:40,280
Speaker 3: Well, I'd say it's all of them. The goal here

152
00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:42,840
Speaker 3: is for this to be a principle that really applies

153
00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:46,000
Speaker 3: across all of the sectors where the International Energy Agency

154
00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:49,000
Speaker 3: and others have highlighted sectors that are required to meet

155
00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:51,600
Speaker 3: our decarbonization goals by twenty thirty five and twenty fifty.

156
00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:53,960
Speaker 3: So when you think about the four reports that we've

157
00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:56,560
Speaker 3: issued recently, right you have the Carbon Management Report, the

158
00:07:56,640 --> 00:08:00,480
Speaker 3: Hydrogen Liftoff Report, Long grain energy storage, and nuclear those

159
00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:02,560
Speaker 3: four definitely need it. The next set of reports that

160
00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:05,120
Speaker 3: are coming out with or in the industrial decarb space,

161
00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:08,280
Speaker 3: the virtual power plant space, they definitely need it. And

162
00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:10,480
Speaker 3: in general, what you find is that we have a

163
00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:13,120
Speaker 3: slightly different way of doing things than the Europeans do,

164
00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:16,200
Speaker 3: but in general it requires roughly one hundred billion dollars

165
00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:20,360
Speaker 3: of private sector experience to cross the bridge to bankability,

166
00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:22,320
Speaker 3: no matter what the sector is. That's when you go

167
00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:25,000
Speaker 3: through all four pillars, which is first of a kind deployment,

168
00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:27,760
Speaker 3: and then engineering excellence, and then you've got the learning

169
00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:31,600
Speaker 3: curve which we all rediscovered from nineteen thirties. And then

170
00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:34,319
Speaker 3: this Wall Street acceptance and the one hundred billion dollars

171
00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:36,320
Speaker 3: doesn't save you a gig a ton of carbon, but

172
00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:38,680
Speaker 3: it does get you across the bridge to bankability, and

173
00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:41,000
Speaker 3: then now you're available to save a gig a ton

174
00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:41,440
Speaker 3: of carbon.

175
00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:45,480
Speaker 2: I recently had a chat with the Hydrocobec team and

176
00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:48,839
Speaker 2: they planned to start exporting clean power to New York

177
00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:51,800
Speaker 2: by twenty twenty six the reison and they just got

178
00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:55,040
Speaker 2: approval for the second line, which was held up in Cootes.

179
00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:58,040
Speaker 2: So it took them fifteen years to get all the

180
00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:01,280
Speaker 2: approvals for the transmission line which we'll carry that power.

181
00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:05,000
Speaker 2: We heard about permitting issues at the summit at various

182
00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:08,240
Speaker 2: panels this morning. So as you look at the project

183
00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:12,320
Speaker 2: proposals that LPO gets and track their progress, which are

184
00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:15,840
Speaker 2: the systemic weaknesses that stand out for you?

185
00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:19,920
Speaker 3: Well, I mean weaknesses are a strong word in general.

186
00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:23,680
Speaker 3: The federal government wasn't the reason why those projects were slow.

187
00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:26,680
Speaker 3: The reason the projects are slow is because the New

188
00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:30,360
Speaker 3: York ISO and then Nyserta and all these other players

189
00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:32,560
Speaker 3: are like, do we want this line, don't we want

190
00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:35,960
Speaker 3: this line. Here's like sixteen different political factions who have

191
00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:37,760
Speaker 3: a role to play and have a voice they want

192
00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:40,840
Speaker 3: to give, And so like, I'm happy for permitting reform

193
00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:43,720
Speaker 3: to occur, and I think it's clearly needed. And even

194
00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:46,600
Speaker 3: Bill mckibbon like wrote about how we need to build again.

195
00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:49,520
Speaker 3: But I do want people to recognize that for all

196
00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:52,080
Speaker 3: of these long transmission lines, whether it's trans West out

197
00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:55,640
Speaker 3: of Wyoming or whether it's Sunsea New Mexico or Grain

198
00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:59,439
Speaker 3: Belt that Inventergy's building, there's a lot of competing interests

199
00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:02,840
Speaker 3: for these lines, right, And the way that the US

200
00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:07,319
Speaker 3: economy is structured, each state makes the decisions for electric

201
00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:10,679
Speaker 3: utility work. And so I understand that people want the

202
00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:13,280
Speaker 3: federal government to step in and say we will just

203
00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:15,520
Speaker 3: force everyone to do these things, but that is not

204
00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:17,960
Speaker 3: the democracy that we live in. And so I just

205
00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:20,520
Speaker 3: want to make sure that people understand what they're really

206
00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:22,680
Speaker 3: asking us to do and what limits they want to

207
00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:24,480
Speaker 3: put on us. Now, the other way to solve this

208
00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:27,240
Speaker 3: problem is through technology, which is where we come in,

209
00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:30,160
Speaker 3: and we have the technology to reconductor all of the

210
00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:33,319
Speaker 3: existing transmission lines and three x the capacity of them.

211
00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:36,080
Speaker 3: But that requires the electric utilities that own the lines

212
00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:38,240
Speaker 3: to want to do that and so, and it also

213
00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:41,040
Speaker 3: requires the renewable energy companies who currently get all that

214
00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:44,240
Speaker 3: access capacity for free, to pay for it. Right now,

215
00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:46,680
Speaker 3: they're saying, we'd like to build our projects at twenty

216
00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:49,280
Speaker 3: nine dollars a megoat hour, and we'd like to socialize

217
00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:52,160
Speaker 3: the cost of transmission amongst all ratepairs. Well, guess what

218
00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:55,560
Speaker 3: that business model is over And so if you want

219
00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:58,840
Speaker 3: to continue to build eighty gigawatts one hundred gigawatts a

220
00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:01,640
Speaker 3: year of renewable energy, well you have to pay for

221
00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:04,440
Speaker 3: the transmission required to do that. And guess what that

222
00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:07,199
Speaker 3: increases the cost of that power from twenty nine hours

223
00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:09,720
Speaker 3: a MEGO hour to almost sixty nine hours in MEGO

224
00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:10,040
Speaker 3: what hour?

225
00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:11,760
Speaker 4: And they don't want to do that. So then we're

226
00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:13,880
Speaker 4: in an impasse. So I'm happy to.

227
00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:16,600
Speaker 3: Take full blame for all of the things that's wrong

228
00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:19,640
Speaker 3: with the entire innovation economy. My shoulders are broad enough

229
00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:21,840
Speaker 3: to do that. But it doesn't solve the problem for

230
00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:24,600
Speaker 3: me taking the blame. What solves the problem is people

231
00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:27,720
Speaker 3: recognizing what the actual problems are, not what they pitch

232
00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:30,000
Speaker 3: to the press, and then figure out how they work

233
00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:33,120
Speaker 3: through them. These are real cost allocation issues. Do you

234
00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:35,080
Speaker 3: want rape payers to pay for them? Or do the

235
00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:38,280
Speaker 3: customers who want that new transmission capacity have to pay

236
00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:41,960
Speaker 3: for them? And there's arguments on both sides. I understand it,

237
00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:45,440
Speaker 3: but let's not trivialize these conversations and say it's just permitting.

238
00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:50,359
Speaker 2: So since we out talking about increasing the transmission capacity,

239
00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:53,760
Speaker 2: that's part of the plan. Biden has spoken about it.

240
00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:56,640
Speaker 2: What's the way out? This debate can go on for

241
00:11:56,679 --> 00:11:59,360
Speaker 2: a long time, But what's your recommended solution.

242
00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:02,960
Speaker 3: Well, it's not my recommended solution. We have ten reports

243
00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:06,120
Speaker 3: we've written on this solution, and the answer is cost allocation,

244
00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:08,960
Speaker 3: Like someone has to pay for this new capacity. What

245
00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:11,760
Speaker 3: the utilities are saying is we don't need this new capacity.

246
00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:14,480
Speaker 3: We can use cold and natural gas and potentially nuclear

247
00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:17,080
Speaker 3: in the future within our existing transmission And there are

248
00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:19,520
Speaker 3: others that are saying, no, we need a three XR

249
00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:23,160
Speaker 3: capacity so we can build a lot more solar and wind. Great, okay, Well,

250
00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:26,040
Speaker 3: then then who pays for all that extra capacity? You

251
00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:28,599
Speaker 3: can't just socialize it when the utilities are saying we

252
00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:31,280
Speaker 3: don't need it. So then the question becomes who pays,

253
00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:33,320
Speaker 3: and so we have to decide who pays, and then

254
00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:35,320
Speaker 3: maybe they pay for fifty percent of the cost, maybe

255
00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:36,800
Speaker 3: they pay for one hundred percent of the cost. But

256
00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:39,439
Speaker 3: like it can't be well, we want it for free

257
00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:41,880
Speaker 3: because that's what we're used to and we're just going

258
00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:44,240
Speaker 3: to stand in the queue, in the interconnection queue for

259
00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:48,880
Speaker 3: seven years, okay, But like I just feel like sometimes

260
00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:52,080
Speaker 3: we try to like say these things are simple to solve,

261
00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:55,080
Speaker 3: and they could be simple to solve. It's like a

262
00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:56,760
Speaker 3: straightforward answer.

263
00:12:56,520 --> 00:12:58,080
Speaker 4: But it's not. It's not easy.

264
00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:01,320
Speaker 3: When they say it's it's simple, not easy, and that's true.

265
00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:03,160
Speaker 3: We know what the answer is, but it's not easy

266
00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:03,800
Speaker 3: to implement it.

267
00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:07,320
Speaker 2: Do you have any projects in queue that are impacted

268
00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:08,920
Speaker 2: by the interconnection queue?

269
00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:09,960
Speaker 4: Not really.

270
00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:12,920
Speaker 3: I mean the loan Program's office in general doesn't do

271
00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:16,720
Speaker 3: established technologies, right, so solar and wind, so we don't

272
00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:18,680
Speaker 3: have a lot of impact there. And frankly, most of

273
00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:21,000
Speaker 3: the rest of our projects, whether it's the nuclear plants

274
00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:24,840
Speaker 3: or the geothermal facilities or hydro facilities, they actually have

275
00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:28,000
Speaker 3: access to interconnection, so that hasn't been a challenge, But

276
00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:30,840
Speaker 3: I do think we have a really big problem around

277
00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:33,160
Speaker 3: like figuring out how we do big thing right and

278
00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:35,400
Speaker 3: how we give people certainty around how to do it.

279
00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:38,640
Speaker 3: But I do think that we can actually perform NEPA

280
00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:41,600
Speaker 3: in a very efficient way. Our office runs NEPA for

281
00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:44,080
Speaker 3: projects on private land and we're able to do it

282
00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:46,040
Speaker 3: in less than eighteen months usually, So I think we

283
00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:48,040
Speaker 3: can be very efficient about things. I think there are

284
00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:51,160
Speaker 3: ways for us to work with tribes and local communities

285
00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:52,120
Speaker 3: to make sure that their.

286
00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:52,840
Speaker 4: Voice is heard.

287
00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:56,920
Speaker 3: But I do think that we allow for properly permitting

288
00:13:57,000 --> 00:14:00,000
Speaker 3: projects to continue to be sued and sometimes you get

289
00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:02,280
Speaker 3: more delays there, and so we should figure out how

290
00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:05,400
Speaker 3: we prevent these projects who don't like the answer that

291
00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:08,800
Speaker 3: comes out of the process from continuously delayed from lawsuits.

292
00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:12,560
Speaker 2: So shifting the focus back to LPO, I had like

293
00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:17,000
Speaker 2: one question trying to understand what has changed in the

294
00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:20,720
Speaker 2: last twelve to eighteen months. If Elon Musk was starting

295
00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:23,360
Speaker 2: his business today and came to you for an ev loan,

296
00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:26,240
Speaker 2: what would be his chances of success and how soon

297
00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:27,080
Speaker 2: would he get the money?

298
00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:29,520
Speaker 3: Well, it depends on how prepared he is to get

299
00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:31,880
Speaker 3: through the office. So we have of the one hundred

300
00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:35,080
Speaker 3: and thirty four our application applications that we've received, I

301
00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:37,160
Speaker 3: think I've said in the past, about thirty five of

302
00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:39,320
Speaker 3: them are prepared to get through the office in sixty

303
00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:41,640
Speaker 3: six to eight months. And those we can get through

304
00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:44,560
Speaker 3: they have professional representation, they not answer our questions with

305
00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:46,560
Speaker 3: twenty four hour response time all that stuff. And then

306
00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:48,840
Speaker 3: we have almost one hundred applicants who probably can't get

307
00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:50,760
Speaker 3: through the office in that amount of time, and they

308
00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:54,200
Speaker 3: need to hire professional representation, They need to upgrade some

309
00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:56,880
Speaker 3: of their staff to be able to like do commercial debt.

310
00:14:56,960 --> 00:14:59,840
Speaker 3: They're experts in raising equity, which is great, but that's

311
00:14:59,880 --> 00:15:03,200
Speaker 3: not the same as us. Right, So in general, I'd say,

312
00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:05,800
Speaker 3: you know, like I think Syrah Resources got through the

313
00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:08,280
Speaker 3: office in four months because they were really well prepared.

314
00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:11,400
Speaker 3: And then there are others that I think were borderlined

315
00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:13,200
Speaker 3: two years. I think if you talked to Rob Hanson,

316
00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:15,800
Speaker 3: a model of materials, he'll say that with borderline two

317
00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:17,840
Speaker 3: years and he wasn't ready when he first came into

318
00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:20,720
Speaker 3: the office, And we help his organization take a more

319
00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:25,080
Speaker 3: professional approach to under the underlying risks of his project.

320
00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:27,560
Speaker 3: And his company is better for it, and we're equally

321
00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:30,880
Speaker 3: excited about both types of applicants. So I don't mind

322
00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:32,880
Speaker 3: spending twenty four months with somebody, but I don't want

323
00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:36,680
Speaker 3: their expectations to be they can come with less preparation

324
00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:38,720
Speaker 3: and then get through the office in six months.

325
00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:40,760
Speaker 2: So that was one of the things that I wanted

326
00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:44,320
Speaker 2: to ask you. Are you getting like is the percentage

327
00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:48,000
Speaker 2: of applications that are more complete? Has that increased over

328
00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:50,880
Speaker 2: the last few months or no?

329
00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:53,920
Speaker 3: I mean, I mean, certainly with the seventeen oh six program,

330
00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:56,720
Speaker 3: we have more electric utilities coming in and other more

331
00:15:56,800 --> 00:15:59,200
Speaker 3: established players coming in, and they have the staff to

332
00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:01,200
Speaker 3: be able to do a lot of this stuff. So

333
00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:04,600
Speaker 3: those are higher quality applications. But there's still a huge

334
00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:07,960
Speaker 3: number of extraordinary entrepreneurs and innovators in our country who

335
00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:11,880
Speaker 3: don't have the ecosystem support that they need to be

336
00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:13,760
Speaker 3: able to get through our office efficiently. And so we

337
00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:16,280
Speaker 3: continue to work on the big accounting firms and the

338
00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:18,920
Speaker 3: big services companies and others to try to get them

339
00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:22,480
Speaker 3: to set up an LBO specific division to help those companies.

340
00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:25,080
Speaker 3: But we can't lower our standards to rush them through

341
00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:27,440
Speaker 3: a process. Right our standards are set by Congress, and

342
00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:29,680
Speaker 3: so we have to get everyone up to those standards.

343
00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:32,840
Speaker 3: And we think that all of these people can. If

344
00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:34,560
Speaker 3: we don't think they can, we tell them that and

345
00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:36,720
Speaker 3: we encourage them not to apply. But for all the

346
00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:38,840
Speaker 3: one hundred and thirty four applications we have now, we

347
00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:41,200
Speaker 3: believe that they can hit our standards, but they still.

348
00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:41,520
Speaker 4: Have to do it.

349
00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:45,720
Speaker 2: You said, it's not easy to make you happy, but

350
00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:48,840
Speaker 2: I was. I really wanted to ask you in terms

351
00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:51,760
Speaker 2: of pace of applications. I just looked at some data.

352
00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:55,720
Speaker 2: So March twenty twenty two you had seventy seven applications

353
00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:59,080
Speaker 2: and seventy six billion dollars in loans requested. And the

354
00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:01,560
Speaker 2: latest update, it is, the one I have is March

355
00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:04,639
Speaker 2: twenty twenty three is one thirty applications and one hundred

356
00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:08,159
Speaker 2: and eighteen billion in loans requested. And of course you

357
00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:10,520
Speaker 2: have the sectors that keep going up and down, and

358
00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:14,800
Speaker 2: the last time business mostly up in terms of like

359
00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:15,919
Speaker 2: the number one sector.

360
00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:18,280
Speaker 4: So yeah, that's true on a relative basis.

361
00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:21,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that is not a pace you're happy with,

362
00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:23,720
Speaker 2: Like where would you like it to be?

363
00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:26,840
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, we have four hundred and twelve billion

364
00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:28,760
Speaker 3: or so to put out the door. And so in

365
00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:30,560
Speaker 3: order to put that much money out the door, we're

366
00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:33,000
Speaker 3: going to need at least that much in loan applications,

367
00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:35,880
Speaker 3: and probably more than that because some people fall through.

368
00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:38,600
Speaker 3: And so I think that the US has the ability

369
00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:40,879
Speaker 3: to do big things. I think we have a tremendous

370
00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:44,040
Speaker 3: number of entrepreneurs and innovators here that need us to

371
00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:46,320
Speaker 3: do big things for their companies to be successful. But

372
00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:49,399
Speaker 3: also we have a number of foreign companies who want

373
00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:52,040
Speaker 3: to come to the United States for their technology to

374
00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:54,360
Speaker 3: be commercialized, and so we want them to come here

375
00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:56,600
Speaker 3: as well. And so I have a lot more work

376
00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:58,600
Speaker 3: to do. Look, I mean we have. We have been

377
00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:01,040
Speaker 3: given these resources by congres I don't think that they

378
00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:04,439
Speaker 3: chose these numbers randomly. They believe that in order to

379
00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:07,240
Speaker 3: unlock ten trillion dollars worth of investment, we have to

380
00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:10,439
Speaker 3: do this first four hundred billion to unlock folks across

381
00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:13,520
Speaker 3: the bridge to bankability. And we've used these lift off

382
00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:17,080
Speaker 3: reports to help understand where we are on that continuum.

383
00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:19,720
Speaker 3: So I'm very happy with my team. I think they

384
00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:22,199
Speaker 3: do an extraordinary job and they work really hard, but

385
00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:24,320
Speaker 3: we have to continue to do better. To hit these

386
00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:25,240
Speaker 3: absolute targets.

387
00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:26,640
Speaker 2: How big is your team now?

388
00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:27,960
Speaker 4: We're up to about two hundred.

389
00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:29,840
Speaker 3: And fifty people, so it's pretty exciting. And we have

390
00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:32,880
Speaker 3: about one hundred new FED positions that'll be posted over

391
00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:35,960
Speaker 3: the next few months, and so we're excited about the

392
00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:39,080
Speaker 3: long term prospects of how we're building this place up

393
00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:39,760
Speaker 3: as an institution.

394
00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:44,400
Speaker 2: In terms of choosing projects, is kaling up a big

395
00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:46,840
Speaker 2: part of the decision, the potential to scale up.

396
00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:49,359
Speaker 3: I mean to be clear, we don't choose any projects.

397
00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:51,520
Speaker 3: What we do is say to people, do you have

398
00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:54,399
Speaker 3: a project that fits within the four milestones on the

399
00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:57,400
Speaker 3: bridge to bankability? And then they submit a Part one application,

400
00:18:57,600 --> 00:18:59,959
Speaker 3: and then we say do you meet the statutory required

401
00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:03,080
Speaker 3: of the Loan Program's Office, And if they do, we

402
00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:06,240
Speaker 3: are now equally excited about every project. So I don't

403
00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:09,000
Speaker 3: care whether it's carbon sequestration or nuclear or hydrogen or

404
00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:11,720
Speaker 3: long dration energy storage, renewables, and I don't care whether

405
00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:14,160
Speaker 3: it's one hundred million dollar loan application or a six

406
00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:16,920
Speaker 3: point five million dollar load application. We care about both

407
00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:20,200
Speaker 3: of them equally. Everybody who uses a Loan Program's Office

408
00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:22,719
Speaker 3: should believe and we are certainly trying to make it

409
00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:26,040
Speaker 3: so that they will get a uniform experience no matter

410
00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:28,760
Speaker 3: what sector they do or how big their loan application is,

411
00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:31,000
Speaker 3: as long as they meet our criteria. And I do

412
00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:33,560
Speaker 3: think it's important for us to be viewed as an

413
00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:37,320
Speaker 3: independent arbiter of the statute. So if you qualify, we

414
00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:38,240
Speaker 3: will prioritize you.

415
00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:41,840
Speaker 2: That's really interesting. I thought there was some intervention on

416
00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:47,320
Speaker 2: your behalf. You're just saying you meet the eligibility criteria,

417
00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:51,320
Speaker 2: and whether it's five million dollars or five billion dollars,

418
00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:53,000
Speaker 2: you're kind of treated equal.

419
00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:55,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean five million is more difficult. So we're

420
00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:58,000
Speaker 3: doing the small deals like that in the Tribal Energy

421
00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:00,520
Speaker 3: Loan program, but I'd say the vast majority of the

422
00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:03,800
Speaker 3: other programs and applications that we have started roughly one

423
00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:06,800
Speaker 3: hundred million. There's no statutory minimum, so they can certainly

424
00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:09,200
Speaker 3: come in for five, but there's like three to four

425
00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:12,080
Speaker 3: million dollars of cost associated to go through our program.

426
00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:13,639
Speaker 4: So it's hard to bear three to four.

427
00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:15,400
Speaker 3: Million dollars of cost and a five million dollar loan.

428
00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:19,520
Speaker 2: And in terms of what has been approved, I just

429
00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:22,119
Speaker 2: have a few headlines. Do you have a number or

430
00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:24,760
Speaker 2: can you just share the headlines. As far as I know,

431
00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:28,800
Speaker 2: it's probably three or four large projects which are approved.

432
00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:32,040
Speaker 3: Well, there are three projects that have closed their loans

433
00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:34,680
Speaker 3: and started drawing on the capitol. There's a number of

434
00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:38,000
Speaker 3: additional projects where we've done a conditional commitment, things like

435
00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:40,560
Speaker 3: lie cycle or redwood or model of the materials where

436
00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:43,600
Speaker 3: they haven't closed the loan yet but they're expecting to

437
00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:45,879
Speaker 3: and so we're excited about that. And then we have

438
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:49,080
Speaker 3: many more applicants, mainly these thirty five I was talking

439
00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:51,040
Speaker 3: about that are fully prepared to get through the office

440
00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:53,720
Speaker 3: that I can confidently say they're going to get through

441
00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:56,600
Speaker 3: the office over the next twelve months. There remaining one

442
00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:59,840
Speaker 3: hundred depends on whether they can get the right representation

443
00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:02,119
Speaker 3: to really fill out our paperwork preper like I said,

444
00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:05,199
Speaker 3: like we equally are enthusiastic for all of them to

445
00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:07,520
Speaker 3: get across the finish line, but they have to meet

446
00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:10,240
Speaker 3: our absolute standards, like we're just not allowed to drop

447
00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:12,040
Speaker 3: our standards to push them through.

448
00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:15,280
Speaker 2: I was speaking to some bankers and they were talking

449
00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:18,920
Speaker 2: about actually at the summit, and they were talking about

450
00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:22,840
Speaker 2: how supply chain stress is still visible in terms of

451
00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:27,680
Speaker 2: lower disbursements, is that. Something that you're also noticing is

452
00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:32,040
Speaker 2: the pace of the actual money out go there than

453
00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:32,760
Speaker 2: it needs to be.

454
00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:36,120
Speaker 3: The deals that we're doing have a lot less impact

455
00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:38,880
Speaker 3: from supply chains because they're first of a kind deployments

456
00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:39,240
Speaker 3: or something.

457
00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:39,960
Speaker 4: It's right.

458
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:43,000
Speaker 3: You have much more supply chain impacts on solar panels

459
00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:45,800
Speaker 3: or wind turbines or cable or some of those things.

460
00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:48,800
Speaker 3: And so I'd say our projects are far less susceptible

461
00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:51,840
Speaker 3: to supply chain delays because we're doing like the first

462
00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:53,840
Speaker 3: six deployments and some of that stuff.

463
00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:56,800
Speaker 2: So how would you sum up your Like, it's two

464
00:21:56,840 --> 00:21:59,439
Speaker 2: years at the ESPO. Now, did they pan out as

465
00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:01,840
Speaker 2: they as you expected them to? And how you know?

466
00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:04,639
Speaker 2: You've told me you're never happy, So I'm going to

467
00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:09,919
Speaker 2: put that into every question. What has been the biggest

468
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:10,720
Speaker 2: challenge for you?

469
00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:13,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, maybe I should correct that I'm always happy, but

470
00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:14,320
Speaker 3: I've never satisfied.

471
00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:16,000
Speaker 2: That sounds better, Yeah.

472
00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:17,800
Speaker 3: I mean, look, I think the first two years was

473
00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:21,920
Speaker 3: about proving to the marketplace that we were capable of

474
00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:26,600
Speaker 3: returning this program to its prominent place within commercialization. I

475
00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:28,399
Speaker 3: think when we first came into office, there was a

476
00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:30,520
Speaker 3: lot of high hopes, but we hadn't really.

477
00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:32,600
Speaker 4: Proven to people that were able to do it today.

478
00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:34,880
Speaker 3: I think when you look at the diversity of projects

479
00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:38,320
Speaker 3: that have gone through the office, whether it's manufacturing loans

480
00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:42,040
Speaker 3: or project loans model for materials as natural gas as

481
00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:44,880
Speaker 3: an input. So people were worried that we'd be anti

482
00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:47,840
Speaker 3: fossil fuels or whatever. I think people recognize now that

483
00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:52,520
Speaker 3: we really are taking a very agnostic, dispassionate view of technology.

484
00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:55,480
Speaker 3: They have to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, and that is

485
00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:57,919
Speaker 3: something that we do care deeply about. But they don't

486
00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:00,840
Speaker 3: have to be from one tribe or another tribe, like

487
00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:03,840
Speaker 3: we're open to all great ideas, and then they do

488
00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:07,440
Speaker 3: need to meet certain absolute standards, and we're happy to

489
00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:10,600
Speaker 3: keep working on improving our ecosystem and all these things.

490
00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:14,119
Speaker 3: But I think that ultimately where we are now is

491
00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:17,760
Speaker 3: that the marketplace has still not figured out how to

492
00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:21,160
Speaker 3: efficiently go through our process, and so they believe in us,

493
00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:23,520
Speaker 3: they believe that they'll be treated fairly by us, but

494
00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:26,320
Speaker 3: they don't believe that they actually know exactly how to

495
00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:28,440
Speaker 3: get through our process efficiently, and so we have a

496
00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:31,600
Speaker 3: lot more work to do to help them understand how

497
00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:34,240
Speaker 3: to do that. And most of their friends are not helpful.

498
00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:37,960
Speaker 3: They're venture capitalists, their board members, their bankers, like, none

499
00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:40,560
Speaker 3: of them are actually helpful. They're wishing them well, but

500
00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:43,400
Speaker 3: they're not actually able to help them. And so that

501
00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:46,399
Speaker 3: falls on us because we believe very strongly that this

502
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:49,760
Speaker 3: is the future of American success, and so we have

503
00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:52,320
Speaker 3: a veested interest in their success and we want them

504
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:53,240
Speaker 3: to be successful.

505
00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:56,080
Speaker 2: Is there a personal Is there a challenge that was

506
00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:58,520
Speaker 2: more personal that you may like to share? What were

507
00:23:58,560 --> 00:23:59,320
Speaker 2: these two years?

508
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:03,879
Speaker 3: Well, in general, I'd say that I make commitments to

509
00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:08,679
Speaker 3: people to get them to invest their time and ultimately

510
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:12,080
Speaker 3: money into getting through our office. And so it's at

511
00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:13,800
Speaker 3: least four hundred hours worth of work to get an

512
00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:17,320
Speaker 3: application put together. Then there's staff time involved, and sometimes

513
00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:19,240
Speaker 3: they have to pay third parties to get through this.

514
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:22,320
Speaker 3: And there have been times where they have not received

515
00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:25,520
Speaker 3: what I believe to be a five star experience through

516
00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:29,000
Speaker 3: our office, and that bothers me because this is America's

517
00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:32,680
Speaker 3: best and brightest, and I made personal commitments to them

518
00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:35,479
Speaker 3: that they'd be treated fairly by the office, and some

519
00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:39,240
Speaker 3: of them have experienced hurdles that I wasn't expecting, or

520
00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:42,240
Speaker 3: delays that I didn't expect. And I just think that

521
00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:45,840
Speaker 3: in general, the US government in this program have to

522
00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:48,479
Speaker 3: become a more predictable place for them to do business,

523
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:50,879
Speaker 3: and we're striving to get that done every day. But

524
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:54,320
Speaker 3: it is a personal failing that I feel, you know, emotionally, personally,

525
00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:56,879
Speaker 3: because I'm making personal commitments to people that they're going

526
00:24:56,920 --> 00:24:58,520
Speaker 3: to be treated fairly and I want to make sure

527
00:24:58,520 --> 00:24:59,560
Speaker 3: we honor those commitments.

528
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:04,800
Speaker 2: And I did not know that an application, a complete application,

529
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:08,720
Speaker 2: would take about four hundred hours of preparation time.

530
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:11,320
Speaker 3: I mean, it's no different than a commercial bank, as

531
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:14,400
Speaker 3: someone who's closed over one hundred billion dollars of commercial debt.

532
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:15,880
Speaker 3: It's a lot of work to put together at data

533
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:17,800
Speaker 3: room with three hundred files and all the work that

534
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:19,679
Speaker 3: goes into putting those together and all that stuff. But

535
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:22,199
Speaker 3: our average loan size is nine hundred million dollars, Like

536
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:23,840
Speaker 3: four hundred dollars is not a lot of time takeet

537
00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:25,840
Speaker 3: a nine million dollar loan.

538
00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:28,320
Speaker 2: That it's a good ratio. So just to wrap up

539
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:31,439
Speaker 2: any headlines that we can expect from you in twenty

540
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:34,439
Speaker 2: twenty three that go beyond what you've already told me,

541
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:37,320
Speaker 2: you know you're expecting these thirty five applications to be

542
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:39,199
Speaker 2: through in the next twelve months or so.

543
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:39,720
Speaker 4: Yeah.

544
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:42,199
Speaker 3: Well, we have our first applications that have come in

545
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:44,640
Speaker 3: for the seventeen oh six program, and we have our

546
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 3: first applications that we feel really good about in the

547
00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:49,880
Speaker 3: Tribal Energy program, and so we're hoping that those two

548
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:51,920
Speaker 3: programs really come into their own this year.

549
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:52,919
Speaker 4: So we're excited about that.

550
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:55,600
Speaker 3: But we also have I think over seventy billion dollars

551
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 3: worth of innovative clean energy loans in here and over

552
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:01,520
Speaker 3: twenty six billion dollars worth of ATV Advanced Technology Vehicle

553
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:02,680
Speaker 3: manufacturing loans to get through.

554
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:03,600
Speaker 4: So we're busy.

555
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:07,399
Speaker 2: Thank you very much for your time and it was

556
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:10,320
Speaker 2: a pleasure to hear your thoughts and all the best

557
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:12,960
Speaker 2: to the Department of Energies LPR.

558
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 4: Well, thanks for your continuing interest. It's really important.

559
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:28,920
Speaker 1: Bloomberg NEF is a service provided by Bloomberg Finance LP

560
00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:32,480
Speaker 1: and its affiliates. This recording does not constitute, nor should

561
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 1: it be construed as investment advice, investment recommendations, or a

562
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:40,159
Speaker 1: recommendation as to an investment or other strategy. Bloomberg n

563
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:43,680
Speaker 1: EF should not be considered as information sufficient upon which

564
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:47,400
Speaker 1: to base an investment decision. Neither Bloomberg Finance LP, nor

565
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:50,880
Speaker 1: any of its affiliates makes any representation or warranty as

566
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:53,800
Speaker 1: to the accuracy or completeness of the information contained in

567
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:56,959
Speaker 1: this recording, and any liability as a result of this

568
00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:58,760
Speaker 1: recording is expressly disclaimed.

569
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:01,119
Speaker 2: A