1 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:12,080 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Invention. My name is Robert lamp and 2 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:15,200 Speaker 1: I'm Joe McCormick. Today we're talking about an invention that 3 00:00:15,240 --> 00:00:18,320 Speaker 1: it's certainly been in the news a bit recently. Um, 4 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:22,120 Speaker 1: we're talking about walls. Okay, Now, we're not a political show, 5 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:24,439 Speaker 1: but some of the statements on the nature of walls, 6 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 1: the purpose of walls, the historical and modern effectiveness of 7 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:33,240 Speaker 1: walls are unavoidable here and and hopefully, uh, this is 8 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:36,520 Speaker 1: all gonna be useful by the time we finished this episode. 9 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:40,320 Speaker 1: You're gonna have, you know, a deeper context regarding the 10 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 1: nature of walls and what a wall is, uh, the 11 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 1: next time you were subjected to the news. Now, I 12 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 1: noticed we've been on a tear recently of extremely ancient inventions. 13 00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:53,479 Speaker 1: I think we did roads and then the wheel, and 14 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 1: now we're on walls. It's almost like we're just going 15 00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:58,960 Speaker 1: further and further back in time. And so I'm sure 16 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:01,400 Speaker 1: we'll get back to some some more recent or high 17 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:05,600 Speaker 1: tech gadgets soon, but definite biographies involved to the thing 18 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:08,160 Speaker 1: about the more modern inventions. But I do really like 19 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:10,840 Speaker 1: doing this kind of thing we're doing by like looking 20 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:15,080 Speaker 1: at the most basic technologies that exist like the wheel 21 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 1: and the wall, because there's so many interesting ways to 22 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 1: look at their you know, they're they're multi millennial legacy 23 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 1: and impact on human culture and history. Now, i'd say, 24 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:26,399 Speaker 1: in addressing the wall, we are going to be talking 25 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:29,760 Speaker 1: a little bit about a few interesting tidbits of of 26 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:32,039 Speaker 1: physical construction. But this isn't gonna be so much an 27 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:36,480 Speaker 1: episode about like wall materials and all that. You obviously 28 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:39,039 Speaker 1: that is a very rich subject on its own, but 29 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:41,039 Speaker 1: I think we're gonna be thinking more about the role 30 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:45,520 Speaker 1: that walls play in geopolitical history. Yeah, yeah, because certainly 31 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:47,400 Speaker 1: the history of walls is kind of the history of 32 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:51,720 Speaker 1: construction and engineering in a broader sense. And we have 33 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:54,440 Speaker 1: to be clear here too about how we're we're looking 34 00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 1: at walls, because there's there's a very good chance that 35 00:01:56,920 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 1: if you're listening to the show right now, you are 36 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 1: either con hanged within walls or perhaps adjacent to a wall. 37 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 1: Even if you're just driving down the road. Um, you know, 38 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:11,600 Speaker 1: you you can probably see some walls right now. Maybe 39 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:14,400 Speaker 1: you're forming part of a human wall, maybe you're walking 40 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:17,120 Speaker 1: on top of a mile high wall. Yeah, all these 41 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 1: are possible, and any of us can build a crude 42 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:23,640 Speaker 1: wall out of sticks or rocks, etcetera, with only the 43 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 1: most basic engineering skills. And in a basic sense, I mean, 44 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 1: this is something that exists in nature. I mean, why 45 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 1: do we have the idea that certain types of animals 46 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 1: and maybe some of our ancestors sought out caves for shelter. 47 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 1: It's because they've got walls and a roof, right, These 48 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 1: like they limit the the they limit your exposure to 49 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:43,400 Speaker 1: the weather through a roof especially, but they also limit 50 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 1: the number of access points through which other animals, say, 51 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:50,919 Speaker 1: could reach you exactly. So we're largely going to talk 52 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 1: about walls as barriers around cities and then more to 53 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:57,919 Speaker 1: the point, as freestanding divisions. And in this we really 54 00:02:57,960 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 1: need to think of them. I think I I believe 55 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:03,960 Speaker 1: a sort of of geoengineering project. Uh. You know, it's 56 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:06,480 Speaker 1: easier to see this in walls that are created using 57 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 1: elements from the natural surroundings. Say a wooden fence or 58 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 1: a beautiful moss covered stone wall in Ireland. You know, 59 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:14,800 Speaker 1: something that would you really looks good on a calendar, 60 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 1: But it's less obvious when you behold something like say 61 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:21,800 Speaker 1: the Great Wall of China or the Peace Lines or 62 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 1: Peace Walls of Ireland or the Berlin Wall something of 63 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 1: this nature. But a wall essentially seeks to do what 64 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 1: the environment does naturally. It's a sheer, vertical rise in 65 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 1: elevation manufactured to impose a particular cultural, political, or personal domain. 66 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 1: You know. Well, you can just imagine somebody perhaps you know, 67 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 1: a far side cartoon caveman, thinking, you know, I wish 68 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 1: my property were on top of a mountain to keep 69 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 1: my enemies away. Well, boom, here's how a wall works. 70 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 1: Now you have a mountain or something that functions like 71 00:03:55,600 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 1: a mountain, creating a vertical obstacle between your and somebody 72 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 1: else's stuff. But there are multiple different ways to think 73 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 1: about the idea of a wall as protection, and this 74 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:09,160 Speaker 1: will come out when we talk about the more macroscopic 75 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:13,119 Speaker 1: wall projects throughout history as we go on. Because there's 76 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 1: one type of being protected in walls that's literally like 77 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:18,680 Speaker 1: I need a barrier to like keep people from coming 78 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 1: in and stealing all my things, or to keep you, 79 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 1: I don't know, a lion from coming and grabbing me 80 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 1: while I'm asleep. But on the other hand, you've also 81 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:30,239 Speaker 1: got the type of protection that is the psychological sense 82 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 1: of privacy, right that a wall is a barrier that 83 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 1: people can't see through that allows you to feel like 84 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 1: you are not constantly being say, observed by your neighbors. Yeah, 85 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:43,640 Speaker 1: like like a privacy fence in one's backyard. We tend 86 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:46,480 Speaker 1: not to think of them as walls of wood. I 87 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 1: will erect walls of wood between me and my so 88 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:52,240 Speaker 1: called neighbors. No, it's privacy fence, you know, just in 89 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 1: case you don't want to, you know, walk around shirtless 90 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:57,360 Speaker 1: in your backyard, which you should. It's your backyard. Do 91 00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:00,120 Speaker 1: what you want or you don't want people steal in 92 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:04,800 Speaker 1: your genius invention that you're building back there exactly so, 93 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 1: its stated earlier prehistoric times, before walls, they required humans 94 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:14,039 Speaker 1: to depend on naturally occurring barriers. You know. Uh, where 95 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:17,159 Speaker 1: can one position themselves so that they're best protected from 96 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:21,120 Speaker 1: the elements, predators, enemies, etcetera. And these could these could 97 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:23,919 Speaker 1: be any number of things, right in addition to vertical 98 00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:28,360 Speaker 1: changes in elevation, Uh that could be uh, rivers, pond streams, 99 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 1: swampy areas, etcetera. And of course early humans and Neanderthals 100 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:36,919 Speaker 1: were nomadic. Uh. There was nothing to be gained in 101 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:39,719 Speaker 1: the creation of heavy duty barriers because you were always 102 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 1: or at least cyclically on the move. You had no cities, 103 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:45,839 Speaker 1: You had no domesticated herds or crop fields that needed 104 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 1: to be cut off from other aspects of the natural world. Um, 105 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:52,160 Speaker 1: there were also precious few of you to begin with. 106 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 1: But of course all that changed. Cities gave rise to walls, 107 00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 1: and city states and empires gave rise to even more. 108 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:03,080 Speaker 1: Wall is a division between the ever expanding, ever advancing 109 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:05,919 Speaker 1: tribes of humanity. Right, you're correct to point out that 110 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 1: the wall revolution. I mean, we we don't know when 111 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:11,279 Speaker 1: the first wall was created, but it would have to 112 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:13,279 Speaker 1: be linked to the idea I would think of of 113 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 1: a sedentary lifestyle, like as people stop moving around and 114 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:21,360 Speaker 1: settle in places, to live in one place and stay there. 115 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 1: And we do, in fact see some of the earliest 116 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 1: archaeological evidence of walls in the most ancient of the 117 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:31,160 Speaker 1: sort of city states of the ancient Near East, for example, 118 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:33,919 Speaker 1: like there are ten thousand year old walls that have 119 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 1: been discovered in the city of Jericho. Now, when it 120 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 1: comes to what we were talking about, the more sort 121 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:41,920 Speaker 1: of freestanding barrier walls that might mark the border of 122 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 1: a territory or uh, you know, or something more like 123 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:47,040 Speaker 1: the Great Wall of China, which will discuss it more 124 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:50,239 Speaker 1: length as we go on. Among the world's earliest known 125 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 1: defensive barrier walls, or the walls of ancient Mesopotamia specifically, 126 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 1: uh some walls constructed in the twenty one century BC 127 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 1: by the sumer Arian rulers Shulgi and shu Sin. And 128 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:05,880 Speaker 1: these were constructed in the region that is modern day 129 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 1: Iraq in order to defend the ancient civilization of Summer 130 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 1: against attacks of nomadic people's known as the Amorites. And 131 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 1: so this wall was also known as the Wall of 132 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 1: the Land or the Amorite Wall. We think that it 133 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 1: probably reached more than a hundred miles in length, stretching 134 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 1: between the twin rivers bound that bound Mesopotamia as the 135 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 1: Tigress and the Euphrates. And while this wall was probably 136 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:33,440 Speaker 1: meant to protect Sumerian cities, it was not, as we said, 137 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 1: a city wall. It's kind of a border wall. I 138 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 1: found one piece of ancient Sumerian poetry in fact, that 139 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:42,200 Speaker 1: seems to be referring to the wall, or at least 140 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 1: to a fictional analog of it, and it's translated and 141 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 1: explained in a book called Reading Sumerian Poetry by the 142 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 1: scholar Jeremy Black. And in this ancient Sumerian poem, you've 143 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 1: got the legendary Sumerian king in Merkar, and he's out 144 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 1: with his army at war, laying siege to a foreign city, 145 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 1: and he gets all demoralized, feeling he's not having a 146 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:07,440 Speaker 1: good time, and he arranges to send a message back 147 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 1: to the mighty goddess in Ana, one of our favorites 148 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:12,240 Speaker 1: from stuff to blow your mind. She you know, she 149 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 1: shrieks power through the rebel lands, and he's out at 150 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 1: war while Innana is residing back in her temple in 151 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 1: the city of Unugs, a Sumerian city also known as Uruk, 152 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 1: and so in Makar's message implies that you know, once 153 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 1: within on his help, his reign had been really great. 154 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 1: It was great and glorious, and he built powerful, impressive structures. 155 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:37,439 Speaker 1: But now things have gone bad, and he feels abandoned 156 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 1: by the goddess and Anna while she sits at home 157 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 1: refusing to come to his aid to help him accomplish 158 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:47,440 Speaker 1: glorious things again. And this is Black's translation of this 159 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 1: passage from the poem The Wall of Unug extended out 160 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 1: over the desert like a bird net. But here and now, 161 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:58,560 Speaker 1: my attractiveness to her has ended. My army hangs on 162 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:01,600 Speaker 1: me as a cow hangs on its calf, like a 163 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:05,320 Speaker 1: son who hating his mother, leaves his city. My princely 164 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:08,600 Speaker 1: sister Holy Anna has run away from me to brick 165 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:12,440 Speaker 1: built Coolaba. So that first line there, that line the 166 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 1: wall of Unug extended out over the desert like a 167 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 1: bird net. I love that image, and Black writes that 168 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:22,520 Speaker 1: this metaphor actually does refer to a real technology, quote, 169 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 1: a long net of a type used for snaring low 170 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 1: flying birds, extending out across the open country. Though I 171 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:32,560 Speaker 1: do find it interesting that here the metaphor for the 172 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 1: wall is an animal trap, not a defensive structure. Yeah, 173 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:39,840 Speaker 1: something to snare, and uh, I guess it makes it 174 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 1: feels maybe metaphorically more imposing, like this is a thing 175 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 1: in which upon which you die, as opposed to this 176 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:50,000 Speaker 1: is a thing that stands between the two of us. Yeah. 177 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 1: Though it's funny because the wall, as invoked in the 178 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 1: poem is not so much invoked as a literal defensive 179 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:00,720 Speaker 1: measure that is effective at its purpose. Instead, it's invoked 180 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 1: as an emblem of the city of Unug's former power 181 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:07,320 Speaker 1: and prosperity. This is a fictional account being told in 182 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:10,600 Speaker 1: this poem. Uh the historical context when the poem was 183 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:14,320 Speaker 1: being read probably meant to call to mind more like 184 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:18,400 Speaker 1: the more recent and real construction of that defensive wall 185 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:21,200 Speaker 1: I mentioned earlier, the walls built by the king's Shulgi 186 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 1: and shu Sin, known as we mentioned earlier, as the 187 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:26,199 Speaker 1: Wall of the land, and also as the keeper at 188 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 1: bay of the nomads. That's a good title, nice and formal, 189 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 1: and that that's that's kind of a recurring theme in 190 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:35,960 Speaker 1: these older walls. It's a way of keeping out the 191 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:39,160 Speaker 1: nomadic people's. But no matter how much the author of 192 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:43,600 Speaker 1: this poem thought of this wall as this great building accomplishment, 193 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:46,559 Speaker 1: you know that symbolizes the glory and splendor of Invercar's 194 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:50,640 Speaker 1: former rule, Ultimately the real wall failed to protect Summer 195 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:55,440 Speaker 1: and the Sumerian civilization. It fell to attacks from multiple enemies, 196 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:58,760 Speaker 1: the Amorrits and the Elamites. The wall didn't work all right. 197 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 1: On that note, let's take a quick break, and when 198 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:03,320 Speaker 1: we come back, we're gonna talk about the Great Wall 199 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 1: of China. Okay, we're back now on the subject of 200 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 1: city walls, kind of the the initial precursor to these 201 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:20,200 Speaker 1: dominion walls. Um To really drive home the importance of 202 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:25,840 Speaker 1: walls here, the interconnectedness between walls and cities. Uh consider 203 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 1: that the Mandarin Chinese word for wall, ching is also 204 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 1: the word for city, so chang shih more specifically means town, 205 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:39,719 Speaker 1: and the Great Wall of China, which we're about to 206 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 1: get into here is uh chiang Ching. And they the 207 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:48,280 Speaker 1: Chinese also had a god of walls and moats. Let's 208 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:50,200 Speaker 1: not forget that moats are very much in the same 209 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:54,480 Speaker 1: geoengineering vein here right along with things like trenches and ditches. 210 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:56,880 Speaker 1: If a wall is a fake mountain, the moat is 211 00:11:56,880 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 1: a fake river. Exactly to make a kind of observation. Sorry, 212 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 1: So the name of this god was shing Wong, and 213 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:07,600 Speaker 1: it's it's a bit complex, but the god, this city god, 214 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 1: is sort of a representative spirit and protective deity that 215 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:14,560 Speaker 1: looks after the city. But it also encompasses deified to 216 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:18,200 Speaker 1: see city leaders that protect the city via the spirit realm, 217 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:20,960 Speaker 1: and they also represent the residents of the city and 218 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:22,760 Speaker 1: dealings with the King of the dead, so of the 219 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 1: King of the dead comes for residents of the city. 220 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:28,320 Speaker 1: He's like the immediate contact that sort of thing. Is 221 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:30,640 Speaker 1: there a reason for that? You know why him? Well, 222 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:33,480 Speaker 1: it gets kind of it's kind of a complicated history there, 223 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 1: because with several phases to it. On one hand, there's 224 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:40,679 Speaker 1: this idea of like veneration of an individual that was 225 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 1: important to the people UH during their life, and then 226 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 1: it makes sense that their their spirit would sort of 227 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:51,319 Speaker 1: hang around and be important after death, part of the 228 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:55,960 Speaker 1: whole veneration of ancestors. But then also this ends up 229 00:12:56,000 --> 00:13:01,080 Speaker 1: being emphasized at different points by by by China, by 230 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:05,559 Speaker 1: Chinese rule as well. Now along these lines, in Chinese traditions, 231 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:09,079 Speaker 1: there's more to a wall than mere physical construction. A 232 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:11,719 Speaker 1: wall is also kind of a spell that keeps out 233 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 1: evil forces in addition to say, you know, invaders, physical invaders, nomads, 234 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 1: northern barbarians. So yeah, let's talk a little bit about 235 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:26,320 Speaker 1: the Great Wall. So the original wall was built more 236 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:30,080 Speaker 1: than two thousand years ago, UH during the the Chin 237 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:35,720 Speaker 1: dynasty UH led by Emperor Chin Xi Wong, who stuffed 238 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:38,040 Speaker 1: all your mind. Listeners may remember, we've we devoted an 239 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:41,680 Speaker 1: entire episode UH to to his life and his tomb, 240 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:45,840 Speaker 1: his undisturbed tomb, which has been legendarily appointed with many 241 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:48,960 Speaker 1: fine booby traps which we we very much hope are real, 242 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:52,560 Speaker 1: but we don't know. Yeah, possibly rivers of lead, I believe, 243 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:57,080 Speaker 1: or of mercury. It was mercury, yes, So anyway, he was, 244 00:13:57,240 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 1: he was an imposing figure. He united the seven warring kingdoms, 245 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 1: and uh, there were these separate walls built by independent 246 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 1: kingdoms that he then had linked together to protect against 247 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:12,080 Speaker 1: those marauders, those northern barbarians. And the oldest parts of 248 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:14,920 Speaker 1: this wall system seemed to date back to the seventh 249 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 1: century b C. Now, hundreds of thousands of workers uh 250 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 1: spent ten years uh working on this. We're talking prisoners, 251 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 1: political enemies, peasants, uh, and then various dynasties would go 252 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:29,560 Speaker 1: on to work on it some more. But it wasn't 253 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 1: until the rise of the Ming dynasty in thirteen sixty 254 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 1: eight that the Great Wall of China as we know 255 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 1: it today really was brought to full fruition. So how 256 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:41,640 Speaker 1: great is this wall? Well, it's reported length is widely 257 00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:46,480 Speaker 1: disputed and ranges anywhere from fifteen hundred miles or two thousand, 258 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 1: four hundred fourteen kilometers to four thousand, one hundred sixty 259 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:53,400 Speaker 1: three miles or sixty seven hundred kilometers. Uh. You know 260 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 1: essentially the idea here as it can go from the 261 00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:59,400 Speaker 1: construction from the Gobi Desert to the Yellow Sea. But 262 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:03,200 Speaker 1: it came about in installments, right, Yeah, So it wasn't 263 00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 1: just one day a great import decided to build the wall. 264 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 1: They were like, look, we have all these these existing walls, 265 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:13,200 Speaker 1: let's stitch these together. And also let's reinforce areas. So 266 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 1: there were areas that they didn't know you only add 267 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 1: length to it. They added double and triple walls in 268 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:22,720 Speaker 1: some places to reinforce what was already there. Um and 269 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:24,360 Speaker 1: and that's why in some areas you have a wall 270 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:26,680 Speaker 1: that is thick enough to drive a car on top 271 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:29,480 Speaker 1: if if if you wanted to and had permission to 272 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 1: do so. Obviously, how do you get permission for that, Well, 273 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 1: there's a there's a whole system you have to go through. Joe, 274 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:38,760 Speaker 1: I bet they're stingy with those permissions. I imagine they are. Now. 275 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 1: I think most people know this anti factoid at this point. 276 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:45,440 Speaker 1: But as we've discussed on stuff to blow your mind 277 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:47,680 Speaker 1: before that that old trope that you can see the 278 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 1: Great Wall of China from space. Not true. I'm not true. 279 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:53,800 Speaker 1: I mean it's still very impressive, don't be wrong, But 280 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 1: but no, idea, it is not visible from space. There 281 00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:58,720 Speaker 1: are plenty of things that humans have made that are 282 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 1: visible from space, but the Great Wall of China is 283 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 1: not really one of them. Now, I was looking at 284 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:08,000 Speaker 1: one interesting study about ancient Chinese construction methods, specifically with 285 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 1: with walls in ancient China, and this is that many 286 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:15,080 Speaker 1: of them were built with a powerful mortaring material that 287 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 1: was made with the secret ingredient of sticky rice. Have 288 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:22,160 Speaker 1: you read about this? No, I'm not familiar with this one. 289 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:23,960 Speaker 1: So I first came across this because our friend and 290 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:26,480 Speaker 1: colleagues got Benjamin linked us to a piece on it. 291 00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:29,960 Speaker 1: But I was I was reading about this a little deeper, 292 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 1: and so basically, here's the deal. So you've got mortar, right. 293 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:35,400 Speaker 1: Mortar it's the building material that you used to help 294 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 1: bond stones or bricks or other hard elements together into 295 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 1: a structure. And mortar goes way back. You use a 296 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 1: paste like this, even it was used in the Pyramids. Uh. 297 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:48,520 Speaker 1: Now a common mortar used throughout history is lime or 298 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:52,440 Speaker 1: slake clime. Uh. Then slake clime is limestone that has 299 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 1: been heated to a high temperature and hydrated with water. 300 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:59,160 Speaker 1: But about fifteen hundred years ago, it seems that construction 301 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 1: engineers in a China discovered a way to make this 302 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:08,680 Speaker 1: powerful and resilient composite inorganic organic mortar by mixing slaked 303 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:13,159 Speaker 1: lime with soup or porridge based on sticky rice, and 304 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:16,480 Speaker 1: together the slaked lime and the sticky rice soup make 305 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:20,080 Speaker 1: a mortar that is much stronger than other known technologies. 306 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:22,399 Speaker 1: So there was a study about this in two thousand 307 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 1: and ten by fu Weei, Yang, Bingjian Jong, and Chinglen 308 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:29,960 Speaker 1: Ma and it was called study of sticky rice lime 309 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 1: mortar technology for the Restoration of Historical masonry construction in 310 00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:37,640 Speaker 1: Accounts of Chemical Research in two thous and the research 311 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:41,960 Speaker 1: identified the most important ingredient as a polysaccharide known as 312 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:45,200 Speaker 1: a melo pecton, which is an element of starch, which 313 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 1: is of course found in rice, but is also in 314 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:50,359 Speaker 1: all kinds of starchy foods like potatoes and corn and stuff. 315 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:53,720 Speaker 1: And the author's right that when they tested the sticky 316 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:58,119 Speaker 1: rice based mortar against more traditional lime only mortars, the 317 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:01,879 Speaker 1: sticky rice based one quote has more stable physical properties, 318 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 1: has greater mechanical strength, and is more compatible, which makes 319 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:09,159 Speaker 1: it a suitable restoration order for ancient masonry. Um so 320 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:11,280 Speaker 1: they suggest we could even use this today if we're 321 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:15,640 Speaker 1: like restoring ancient buildings that need their bricks stuck together better. Interesting. 322 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 1: I mean, I hate to waste good, good sticky rice, yeah, 323 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:22,879 Speaker 1: in in building a structure. But but it sounds convincing. Well, 324 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:25,359 Speaker 1: this wouldn't be the only case actually where food crop 325 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:30,200 Speaker 1: based starches have proven useful as a non food adhesive. Apparently, 326 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:33,399 Speaker 1: potato starch makes a popular kind of wallpaper paste. Have 327 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:35,880 Speaker 1: you ever read about this? I looked it up there, 328 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 1: like recipes online for for making your own wallpaper paste outtatos. Interesting. 329 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:44,280 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess now it makes sense here as well, 330 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:47,239 Speaker 1: because I have learned from the Fallout games that if 331 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:49,960 Speaker 1: you have vegetable starch, you can turn that into adhesive 332 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:55,040 Speaker 1: at a workstation. Really so so so it lines out 333 00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:58,400 Speaker 1: up with the Fallout technology trees. I never knew those 334 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:01,000 Speaker 1: games are so educational they but that is a great 335 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 1: kind of ingenuity. Like you take the things you say, well, 336 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:05,399 Speaker 1: we eat this for breakfast, but what if we also 337 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:08,560 Speaker 1: used it to hold bricks together. Yeah, yeah, like it's 338 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:11,760 Speaker 1: sticky in my mouth. I bet we could. We could 339 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 1: use this if we had to in constructing a wall. Now, 340 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 1: following the Manchu invasion of the seventeen hundreds, the Great 341 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:21,400 Speaker 1: Wall of China was largely abandoned as a military priority. 342 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:26,440 Speaker 1: What's more, maus a tongue um, he ended up encouraging 343 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 1: the Chinese people to use bricks in other parts of 344 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:32,560 Speaker 1: the wall or building projects. Uh So a large portion 345 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:36,760 Speaker 1: of the wall was essentially vanished during all that as well. 346 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 1: But ultimately the big question here that that one might 347 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:43,160 Speaker 1: ask is did the Great Wall of China work right? 348 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:46,320 Speaker 1: Did it like repel invaders from the north right? And 349 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:48,359 Speaker 1: there's a there's a you know, there's a lot of 350 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 1: fascinating history and discussion on this topic. I will point 351 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:56,680 Speaker 1: out that there's an excellent article in National Geographic called 352 00:19:56,680 --> 00:20:01,200 Speaker 1: The Great Wall of China's Long Legacy by Bore Pellaguero 353 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 1: Alcade and uh it's I'll try to link to it 354 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:07,239 Speaker 1: on the landing page for this episode, but it's well 355 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:11,920 Speaker 1: worth checking out. It really goes goes in deep but 356 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:16,880 Speaker 1: but in a very readable, digestible manner. So the most 357 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:19,720 Speaker 1: specific threat that the wall was dealing with were again 358 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:23,760 Speaker 1: the northern barbarians, the neumatic people's uh you know from 359 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:27,960 Speaker 1: from Mongolia and and so forth, And it was never 360 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:31,359 Speaker 1: the only protection in place. It's always important to note 361 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:33,920 Speaker 1: with walls, like it's easy to just have that stark 362 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:37,240 Speaker 1: image of the wall in your mind. Is this this 363 00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:41,960 Speaker 1: tremendous human geoengineering project. I have made a mountain and 364 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 1: nunshell cross. But generally there's other stuff going on with 365 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:49,520 Speaker 1: a wall, be it just a military or certainly there was. 366 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:53,560 Speaker 1: The Chinese did have military forces, but there were also 367 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 1: economic policies under various rulers to keep the northern people 368 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:02,480 Speaker 1: in check. Economic policies what could that amount to ransom? 369 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 1: Basic essentially yes, like economic stimulus et cetera, making payments 370 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:11,520 Speaker 1: and saying hey, here's here, you don't want to come 371 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:14,040 Speaker 1: and invade us, just here take some some of this. 372 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:17,200 Speaker 1: But this only worked for so long, and then the 373 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:20,919 Speaker 1: Genghis Khan led the Mongol invasion in twelve eleven captured 374 00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:23,440 Speaker 1: the capital, and in twelve fifteen his son Kubla Khan 375 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:27,480 Speaker 1: conquered all of China and founded UH, the Yon dynasty 376 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 1: and UH ultimately the con rule lasted less than a century, 377 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:35,440 Speaker 1: and following a peasant uprising, the Ming dynasty again uh 378 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 1: took power in thirteen sixty eight. And again this is 379 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:40,320 Speaker 1: where the wall as we know it really came together. 380 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:45,119 Speaker 1: Um according to that National Geographic article. You know, they 381 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:49,199 Speaker 1: were employing economic means as well um foreign aid to 382 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:53,840 Speaker 1: keep the barbarians at bay. But this didn't work perfectly. 383 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 1: Border attacks continued until one when trading posts were built 384 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:02,359 Speaker 1: on the board, which apparently helped ease tensions. But again 385 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:07,040 Speaker 1: this is kind of a uh An economic solution, UH 386 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:10,400 Speaker 1: that is working alongside all of this wall building that's 387 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:13,720 Speaker 1: going on at the time. Now, this ongoing Mongol conflict 388 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 1: weakened the Ming dynasty and it fell to another peasant uprising. 389 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:22,159 Speaker 1: And then under the Ching dynasty, China's northern border expanded 390 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 1: well beyond the wall, making it even more unnecessary. But 391 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:28,679 Speaker 1: though it remained a symbol of cultural pride, but a 392 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:31,600 Speaker 1: relic of the past at the same time. So I 393 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:34,120 Speaker 1: feel like the Great Wall of China side. Besides being 394 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:36,919 Speaker 1: one of the most iconic examples of a you know, 395 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 1: a free standing dominion wall in human history, it also 396 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 1: has some some potential lessons about the limitations of walls, 397 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:50,840 Speaker 1: the life cycle of walls, um, you know, and just 398 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:56,040 Speaker 1: again the nature of walls not working in isolation because 399 00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 1: obviously any wall, they're in their numerous ways to get 400 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:03,440 Speaker 1: under it, to go over it, to go through it, etcetera. Uh, 401 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 1: there have to be other things in place with it. Absolutely, 402 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:09,440 Speaker 1: But then you know, another interesting thing to think about 403 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:13,520 Speaker 1: when we consider historical walls, barrier walls of this type 404 00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:19,040 Speaker 1: is to think about, um, do we always just accept 405 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:23,480 Speaker 1: the assumed stated purpose that that were given for why 406 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:26,160 Speaker 1: they were built. I mean, you can assume that probably 407 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:29,000 Speaker 1: it was a major reason that the Great Wall of 408 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:31,040 Speaker 1: China was built that you know, you want, they wanted 409 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 1: to keep out invaders from the north, to prevent raids 410 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:36,639 Speaker 1: and attacks and that kind of thing. But there can 411 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:39,679 Speaker 1: be other things to consider as well. And I wannah, 412 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:42,080 Speaker 1: I want to bring up the idea of Hadrian's Wall 413 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:44,240 Speaker 1: to take another look at this. All right, well, let's 414 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 1: take a quick break first and then we'll come right 415 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:55,399 Speaker 1: back with Hadrian's Wall. All right, we're back. So another 416 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:59,440 Speaker 1: famous defensive barrier wall in history is known as Hadrian's Wall. 417 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:03,920 Speaker 1: Around the year one twenty two, see the Roman emperor Hadrian, 418 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:07,360 Speaker 1: who ruled from one seventeen to one thirty eight, commissioned 419 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 1: the construction of a giant wall from shore to shore 420 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:15,199 Speaker 1: in what is today Northern England, supposedly to protect the 421 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:20,080 Speaker 1: inhabitants of Roman Britain from tribes in Northern Britain, which 422 00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:23,479 Speaker 1: is present day Scotland, such as the Picks. And this 423 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:25,640 Speaker 1: was a big project, I mean we are talking about 424 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:28,000 Speaker 1: going from from sea to see. It was a military 425 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 1: construction project, taking about fifteen thousand soldiers to build. And 426 00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:36,719 Speaker 1: Hadrian's Wall remains today the longest stone wall in Europe, 427 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:40,640 Speaker 1: stretching about a hundred and seventeen kilometers or seventy three miles, 428 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:43,400 Speaker 1: and the way it goes from shore to shore, it's 429 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:46,560 Speaker 1: not hard to see this is the historical inspiration for 430 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 1: the Wall in Game of Thrones. Uh. In fact, I 431 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,720 Speaker 1: think that's pretty explicit, right that that that Martin, George R. 432 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:55,720 Speaker 1: Martin has has mentioned this as the inspiration. Yeah, he's 433 00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 1: he's he's come out and said the White Walkers are Scots, 434 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 1: just straight up. Now he hasn't said that, but but yeah, 435 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:07,200 Speaker 1: it's like clearly, the the wester roast Um Wall, the Ice, 436 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:09,479 Speaker 1: the Wall of ice goes from sea to sea, just 437 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:12,720 Speaker 1: like Adrian's Now, unlike in the fantasy books, this is 438 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:15,320 Speaker 1: not a giant, you know, thousand foot tall wall made 439 00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:17,879 Speaker 1: of ice. This wall was about fifteen feet tall or 440 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:19,840 Speaker 1: about four point five meters we actually, I think it 441 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:23,440 Speaker 1: was different heights at different areas, but generally about fifteen 442 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:26,719 Speaker 1: feet tall. And it took about six years to complete building. 443 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:29,960 Speaker 1: And it remained in some phase of use more or 444 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 1: less until the end of Roman power in Britain, which 445 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 1: was in the early fifth century. Uh. Though some parts 446 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 1: of the wall remain in place, a lot of it 447 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 1: has fallen into disrepair, and much like the Great Wall 448 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 1: of China, has been plundered over the centuries for building materials. Yeah, 449 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:47,720 Speaker 1: because here you have just a wonderful collection of bricks 450 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:52,320 Speaker 1: or whatnot. Uh, it would it would just be irresistible 451 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:53,680 Speaker 1: to loot it a little bit. I mean we see 452 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:56,200 Speaker 1: that with other constructions throughout history. I mean just think 453 00:25:56,200 --> 00:26:00,359 Speaker 1: about the example of the Rosetta stone, Uh, the the 454 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:04,400 Speaker 1: tablet that it was so instructive in understanding ancient Egyptian 455 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:08,920 Speaker 1: It was found not in its original location, but it 456 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:13,120 Speaker 1: reused in building another structure. Well, it's like palam sests, 457 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:17,240 Speaker 1: you know, reusing priceless literary artifacts of the ancient world 458 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:19,800 Speaker 1: to write other stuff on. Yeah, or that you don't 459 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 1: like what's on the canvas, paint over it. I'm hoping 460 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,560 Speaker 1: that the end of Game of Thrones involves a lot 461 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:27,919 Speaker 1: of like steady looting of the ice wall for use 462 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 1: in cocktails among the northern people. I thought you were 463 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:33,920 Speaker 1: gonna say for use and igloes. Well it was too 464 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 1: I guess that would be more practical iglues and cocktails. 465 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:42,120 Speaker 1: So there there are some really differing historical interpretations about 466 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 1: why Hadrian's Wall was actually built, like what purpose it 467 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:49,080 Speaker 1: served and whether it was effective and to what extent. 468 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:52,600 Speaker 1: In the words of Hadrian's biographer, the purpose of the 469 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 1: wall was to quote separate the Romans from the barbarians, 470 00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:00,119 Speaker 1: because that's pretty clear. So they've got a caledone me 471 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:02,439 Speaker 1: up above the wall and they think, oh, those are 472 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:04,960 Speaker 1: the barbarians. We got to cut ourselves off from them. 473 00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:08,480 Speaker 1: But modern historians differ about how effective it would be, 474 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:11,280 Speaker 1: what it was really meant for, and all that. As 475 00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:15,040 Speaker 1: a true military defensive wall, I think it's clear that 476 00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:19,040 Speaker 1: it would serve some purpose, but that it would not 477 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:22,400 Speaker 1: be a totally effective barrier, and in fact it wasn't there. 478 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:25,320 Speaker 1: There were times when it failed to stop, say, picked 479 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:28,480 Speaker 1: raids in an area, even after the wall had been constructed. 480 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:32,080 Speaker 1: But it would serve some kind of military purpose, like 481 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 1: the wall would help help you hold a border area 482 00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:40,359 Speaker 1: from advancing raiding parties or armies with fewer numbers of 483 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:43,240 Speaker 1: troops that would be required without walls, so you wouldn't 484 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 1: have to like send out a military response to absolutely 485 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 1: every uh, you know, teeny raid that's going on, like 486 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:54,200 Speaker 1: every time somebody throws a rock at your border. Right, 487 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:57,359 Speaker 1: But at the same time, a lot of modern historians 488 00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:01,200 Speaker 1: seemed to doubt the idea that the wall was purely 489 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:05,080 Speaker 1: or even primarily for like military defensive purposes, and they 490 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:08,840 Speaker 1: kind of de emphasized this as the motivation for building 491 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:11,480 Speaker 1: it or as the actual function of it once it 492 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:14,680 Speaker 1: was built. And if these doubters are correct, what could 493 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:18,439 Speaker 1: the purpose of the wall be. One common explanation I 494 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:21,720 Speaker 1: came across is that the wall is not a defensive 495 00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 1: structure as much as a way of controlling traffic, essentially 496 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:32,480 Speaker 1: to route travelers and traders through military controlled gates where taxes, customs, 497 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,960 Speaker 1: and tolls could be extracted, which would make it essentially 498 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 1: a fundraising operation. And then well, well no really, and 499 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 1: this is this is I think a very plausible way 500 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 1: of explaining things. Uh. This hypothesis is often supported by 501 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,600 Speaker 1: reference to the placement and design of the many big 502 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:52,360 Speaker 1: gates of the wall and the archaeological record of trade 503 00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 1: and goods on either side. It looks like there was 504 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:57,040 Speaker 1: a lot of economic commerce going back and forth across 505 00:28:57,120 --> 00:28:59,520 Speaker 1: the wall, and the Empire would have wanted a way 506 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:02,560 Speaker 1: to make money off of that. Another explanation I've come 507 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:06,440 Speaker 1: across is that it was essentially a giant make work project. 508 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:10,640 Speaker 1: So like, imagine you've got a big army, your Hadrian, 509 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:13,719 Speaker 1: and you've sent an army north to try to conquer 510 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 1: all of Great Britain or what was what is now 511 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:19,520 Speaker 1: Great Britain, and they essentially failed. They didn't conquer all 512 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:22,840 Speaker 1: of Caledonia, they couldn't get up into the highlands. Um, 513 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:26,040 Speaker 1: so you've got an army after a failed campaign, hanging 514 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:29,200 Speaker 1: around down in what is now England, in Roman Britain. 515 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,240 Speaker 1: And it's generally, I think a bad idea in ancient 516 00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:35,560 Speaker 1: Rome to have thousands of military men sitting around board 517 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:40,840 Speaker 1: at an imperial frontier. Uh So, perhaps one explanation is 518 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:43,200 Speaker 1: that it was just sort of a boondoggle to keep 519 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:46,120 Speaker 1: the legionaries of the Roman of Roman Britain busy, though 520 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:49,680 Speaker 1: this last hypothesis is considered unlikely by some. For example, 521 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:52,280 Speaker 1: the author I'm about to site. So there's an article 522 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:55,640 Speaker 1: about Hadrian's Wall and a smaller, more northern situated wall 523 00:29:55,680 --> 00:30:00,200 Speaker 1: known as the Antonine Wall in the edition of Current 524 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:04,720 Speaker 1: Archaeology by the author and Current Archaeology Editor Matthew Simons, 525 00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 1: who has recently written a book for Cambridge University Press 526 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:10,960 Speaker 1: about Roman efforts to protect the borders and frontiers of 527 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:14,640 Speaker 1: their empire. And Simon's points out a few things about 528 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:17,360 Speaker 1: Hadrian's Wall. One of them is that we might be 529 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:19,920 Speaker 1: thinking about the function of a wall in a way 530 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:25,040 Speaker 1: that is colored by modern understandings of nation states and borders. Usually, 531 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 1: though not always, but usually today, if somebody puts up 532 00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 1: a barrier wall around a territory, they're trying to control 533 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:36,080 Speaker 1: an existing, agreed upon border. So the idea being like 534 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 1: one nation has drawn a line in the sand and said, oh, 535 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 1: if this is the border, and then and then there's 536 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:43,960 Speaker 1: a sense, oh, maybe you're not respecting that border. Now 537 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:46,080 Speaker 1: I'm gonna build a wall on that line in the sand. 538 00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:48,840 Speaker 1: So now it's it's it's even it's even more clear, 539 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:52,000 Speaker 1: and you can't get over exactly. But maybe in Roman 540 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:54,200 Speaker 1: times the purpose of a border wall is not so 541 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 1: much to reinforce a clear and agreed upon existing border, 542 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:01,760 Speaker 1: but to create one right to sort of mark off 543 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:05,960 Speaker 1: territory as clearly yours and Simon's writes that, you know, 544 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,600 Speaker 1: the Romans controlled the southern part of Great Britain, but 545 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:11,000 Speaker 1: they could not fully conquer the northern part that's now 546 00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:14,720 Speaker 1: Scotland due to strain on military resources. So in order 547 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:18,800 Speaker 1: to cement control and establish a border, maybe they built 548 00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:21,520 Speaker 1: a wall essentially as a way of saying here we are, 549 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:24,840 Speaker 1: which would have been at least as important as a 550 00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:27,720 Speaker 1: symbol as it was as a practical barrier to like 551 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:31,720 Speaker 1: prevent incursions. This brings me back to the idea of 552 00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:36,120 Speaker 1: of walls and Chinese traditions as being not only physical structures, 553 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:38,360 Speaker 1: but a kind of spell. Yes, you know, because because 554 00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:42,040 Speaker 1: a symbol is a powerful thing, it it communicates an idea, 555 00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:44,400 Speaker 1: and a wall of course has two sides. It can 556 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:48,840 Speaker 1: communicate one message in one direction, and another in the 557 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:52,680 Speaker 1: other direction, one for those beyond the wall, and another 558 00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:55,440 Speaker 1: message for those within exactly. And so I was reading 559 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:59,440 Speaker 1: another article where speaking to n PR, there is a 560 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:02,880 Speaker 1: woman named Linda Tuttiet who was the chief executive of 561 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:06,520 Speaker 1: the Hadrian's Wall Trust, and she says that there's quote 562 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:09,680 Speaker 1: quite strong evidence that the wall was painted white in 563 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:13,360 Speaker 1: Roman times, so as you can imagine, that would have 564 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:16,920 Speaker 1: been visible from miles and miles and miles away. So 565 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:19,800 Speaker 1: it's it's there in this idea, it's there is like 566 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:22,680 Speaker 1: a symbol, a beacon, a thing for people to see 567 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:27,240 Speaker 1: and be reminded that this is Rome, right, because they, 568 00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:30,040 Speaker 1: especially to the north, they do not have a map. 569 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:32,800 Speaker 1: I'm guessing they can't just you know, pull up a 570 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:35,280 Speaker 1: map on their smartphone or out of their glove compartment 571 00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:37,920 Speaker 1: and say, oh, yeah, this is where the Roman territory begins. 572 00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:42,400 Speaker 1: But making a highly visible white wall like that is 573 00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 1: like making it is making the the the demarcation on 574 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:50,320 Speaker 1: the map physical in a way that you can see 575 00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:54,040 Speaker 1: miles ahead. Yeah, exactly. So it's meant to stand out 576 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:57,760 Speaker 1: visually for psychological impact and to bolster that. Also, I 577 00:32:57,800 --> 00:32:59,880 Speaker 1: mentioned the idea of the Antonine Wall the wall that 578 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:02,280 Speaker 1: not as not as big as Hadrian's Wall, but it's 579 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:04,360 Speaker 1: a little bit north of it. I was reading an 580 00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:06,840 Speaker 1: article from last year about the research of an archaeologist 581 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:10,040 Speaker 1: named Luisa Campbell from the University of Glasgow and some 582 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:12,800 Speaker 1: colleagues of hers, who have found that the wall was 583 00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:17,120 Speaker 1: also brightly painted in its time with yellow and red 584 00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:21,440 Speaker 1: paints and decorated with all these bits of propagandistic sculpture 585 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 1: to show the power of rome and like. There was 586 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:26,680 Speaker 1: a lot of emphasis on the use of red paint 587 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:30,320 Speaker 1: to show like power and bloodiness. So that would again 588 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:32,360 Speaker 1: this applies to the Antonine Wall, but would make it 589 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:36,440 Speaker 1: very much like a symbol, a signaling mechanism. Now I 590 00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:39,240 Speaker 1: don't know which of these hypotheses is correct, obviously I'm 591 00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:42,120 Speaker 1: not a historian of Roman Britain, but all of them 592 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:45,440 Speaker 1: seem at least somewhat plausible to me, Like the idea that, okay, 593 00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:49,120 Speaker 1: it did serve some military purpose in a defensive sense, 594 00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:53,160 Speaker 1: but it also or alternatively may have served mainly like 595 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:57,400 Speaker 1: a fundraising traffic controlling function to get traders into one 596 00:33:57,400 --> 00:33:59,960 Speaker 1: place where you could tax them, Or that it was 597 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:02,760 Speaker 1: just a big make work project, or that it was 598 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:06,360 Speaker 1: mainly about symbolism, and as you mentioned a minute ago, 599 00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:10,200 Speaker 1: that the symbolism could wouldn't just be going one way, right, Like, 600 00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:13,640 Speaker 1: symbolism could be aimed at the people within your territory 601 00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:16,319 Speaker 1: of control as well. Right, Yeah, this is the this 602 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:20,200 Speaker 1: is the place where are our rule extends to and 603 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:23,359 Speaker 1: and you are safe within these these walls. Yeah, like 604 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:27,640 Speaker 1: there there there's definitely a lot of writing about historical walls, especially, 605 00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:30,120 Speaker 1: I know I've read one medieval historian talking about city 606 00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:33,680 Speaker 1: walls in this context being about a sense of security 607 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:39,120 Speaker 1: versus necessarily like truly fully effective security. Because what you know, 608 00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:40,920 Speaker 1: what do you need to happen in a city? You 609 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:42,759 Speaker 1: want there to be commerce, You want people coming in 610 00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:45,759 Speaker 1: doing business, trading, you know that, to help make the 611 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:48,360 Speaker 1: city rich. And so a way to do that is 612 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:52,360 Speaker 1: to try to create a psychological effect and impression on 613 00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:54,920 Speaker 1: people that this is a safe place to do business. 614 00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:57,680 Speaker 1: And a wall could help do that. Yeah, and the 615 00:34:57,719 --> 00:34:59,880 Speaker 1: idea that yes, the gates are open, but we have 616 00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:04,040 Speaker 1: control over the gates. Uh, this this place is closed 617 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:07,160 Speaker 1: off and yet open to whatever degree we need it 618 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:09,880 Speaker 1: to be. Yeah. And again, so I don't feel qualified 619 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:13,960 Speaker 1: to adjudicate which of these historical interpretations for Hadrian's Wall 620 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:16,719 Speaker 1: in particular is correct, like which is which was the 621 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,160 Speaker 1: real main purpose of the construction. But I do think 622 00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:22,840 Speaker 1: it's clear that very often barrier walls all throughout history 623 00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:27,359 Speaker 1: are presented as simple and intended function, but in fact 624 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:30,520 Speaker 1: that they're complex and they may serve many purposes other 625 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:35,319 Speaker 1: than the explicitly announced one, often symbolic or psychological purposes, 626 00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:38,640 Speaker 1: right and and whatever whatever. And even if they don't 627 00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:43,560 Speaker 1: have the symbolism in mind, like overtly in mind when 628 00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:47,120 Speaker 1: they are designed and built, they'll often take on this 629 00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:50,839 Speaker 1: symbolic power as well. Uh, you know, I I can't 630 00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:53,240 Speaker 1: help but think of some of the more modern examples 631 00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:54,920 Speaker 1: of walls, you know, stuff that we can we can 632 00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:58,759 Speaker 1: relate to with our through modern culture, for instance, the 633 00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:02,200 Speaker 1: Berlin Wall being a primary example of that. Well, I 634 00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:04,200 Speaker 1: mean think of the power of like how come the 635 00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:08,560 Speaker 1: fall of of Soviet or Communist rule in Europe is 636 00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:13,840 Speaker 1: put into a single image in the crushing and destruction 637 00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:17,520 Speaker 1: of the Berlin Wall. You know that that one day, Uh, this, 638 00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:20,319 Speaker 1: this is clearly such a powerful image for people, and 639 00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:22,799 Speaker 1: it's all there on that one wall. Oh yes, plus 640 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:29,280 Speaker 1: all those wonderful images of the intense UH graffiti creativity 641 00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:32,440 Speaker 1: that went into the one side of the wall versus 642 00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:36,200 Speaker 1: a the starkness that that one encountered on the other. 643 00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:38,600 Speaker 1: And it does feel that it was it was largely 644 00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:43,440 Speaker 1: created UH with that symbolic power in mind, though, the idea, 645 00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:46,960 Speaker 1: I mean, not the the artistic flourishes that were added 646 00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:49,360 Speaker 1: to one side, but just the idea that here is 647 00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:51,879 Speaker 1: a thing to represent the division. Here is a thing 648 00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:56,719 Speaker 1: to to drive home the division while also functionally separating 649 00:36:56,760 --> 00:36:59,040 Speaker 1: people's But then, of course we shouldn't forget that this 650 00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:02,440 Speaker 1: wall was quite literally I think, meant to be effective 651 00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:05,840 Speaker 1: at preventing transit, at least especially one way, like it 652 00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:08,279 Speaker 1: definitely had a had a functional purpose. I mean, it 653 00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:11,840 Speaker 1: was manned and guarded with lethal force. Speaking of which, 654 00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:15,680 Speaker 1: another barrier that comes to mind is the Korean Militarized 655 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:20,200 Speaker 1: Zone or the d m Z, which of course snakes 656 00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:23,360 Speaker 1: across the width of the Korean peninsula, creating this hundred 657 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:25,720 Speaker 1: sixty mile long, two and a half mile wide buffer 658 00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:30,080 Speaker 1: zone between North and South Korea. Another barrier border that 659 00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:34,440 Speaker 1: is frequently in the news. Another another one that Dolphin 660 00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:38,399 Speaker 1: comes up is the West Bank Barrier UM. This one 661 00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:42,640 Speaker 1: currently runs along the our myst disagreement line or the 662 00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:45,759 Speaker 1: green line that separates Israel from the territories of the 663 00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:48,959 Speaker 1: West Bank. And another one that is UH I've seen 664 00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:52,360 Speaker 1: making the news recently are the Peace lines or the 665 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:56,120 Speaker 1: peace walls. UH. These are separation barriers built in Northern 666 00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:59,920 Speaker 1: Ireland to separate Catholic and Protestant neighborhoods, intended to men 667 00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:03,440 Speaker 1: minimize violence between the two groups, especially during the troubles 668 00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:08,319 Speaker 1: from nine. But they're they're still standing. UH. You'll see 669 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:12,200 Speaker 1: them mostly in Belfast, but there of course is UM. 670 00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:15,480 Speaker 1: In on the subject of of Brexit, there has been 671 00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:17,520 Speaker 1: a lot of concern over this because currently you have 672 00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:21,960 Speaker 1: a what a soft border between the Republic of Ireland 673 00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:27,239 Speaker 1: and Northern Ireland, and um you have in the case 674 00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:30,120 Speaker 1: of a what a hard Brexit, you have the potential 675 00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:33,920 Speaker 1: for that to be a hard border. Again. UM. You know, 676 00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:37,840 Speaker 1: not necessarily a wall in the strictest sense of the words, 677 00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:42,239 Speaker 1: but when we're talking about like the channeling of commerce 678 00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:45,799 Speaker 1: and the controlling of commerce and the UH and and 679 00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:49,360 Speaker 1: so forth, it is it is essentially the wall and 680 00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:52,200 Speaker 1: everything but form. And that sounds like a nasty echo 681 00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:55,239 Speaker 1: of the past. Yeah, but you know, certainly speaking to it, 682 00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:58,040 Speaker 1: two walls like the piece walls that that still stand, 683 00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:01,080 Speaker 1: you know, like they're a constant reminder of what has 684 00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:04,120 Speaker 1: come before and what you know, to some extent still 685 00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:08,160 Speaker 1: resonates within the culture and what could come again. Um, 686 00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:12,160 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, walls are potent reminders, potent symbols 687 00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:18,279 Speaker 1: of division, and very often perceived to be symbols of oppression. Yeah, 688 00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:20,640 Speaker 1: I mean, certainly that's the case if one is trapped 689 00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:22,799 Speaker 1: within walls, if you were within the walls of a 690 00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:26,880 Speaker 1: prison cell or a prison ground, um, you know, you 691 00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:29,520 Speaker 1: can feel the force of those walls, and likewise it's 692 00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:32,960 Speaker 1: communicating something else to the people on the outside, right saying, Uh, 693 00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:37,520 Speaker 1: those that we have deemed appropriate to incarceraate are are 694 00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:40,960 Speaker 1: safely set aside from you. They are they are walled 695 00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:43,440 Speaker 1: off within this prison. Again back to the symbolic and 696 00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:47,200 Speaker 1: psychological power that these barriers so often served. So we 697 00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:49,960 Speaker 1: only mentioned a few walls. Obviously there are there there 698 00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:53,160 Speaker 1: are a number of other historic walls of note. Uh 699 00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:57,720 Speaker 1: number of other walls that are currently used in today's world. 700 00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:02,000 Speaker 1: I hope coming out of this episode and sort of 701 00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:05,800 Speaker 1: trying to deconstruct what a wall is and what it does, 702 00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:08,359 Speaker 1: and what it doesn't do, what it depends on, all 703 00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:10,799 Speaker 1: these other things. For uh that it will you know, 704 00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:14,799 Speaker 1: force us to maybe you know, think twice, think three 705 00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:18,400 Speaker 1: times if we need to, uh, the next time any 706 00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:22,640 Speaker 1: of these barriers comes up, uh in conversation in the 707 00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:26,000 Speaker 1: news cycle. Certainly we can think about the nature of 708 00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:32,319 Speaker 1: walls in discussions of proposed future walls. Um. Again, the 709 00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:34,880 Speaker 1: wall is something that is so universal it is easy 710 00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:37,280 Speaker 1: to just not think about it, to not think about 711 00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:39,640 Speaker 1: what it is and what it is supposed to do. 712 00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:42,399 Speaker 1: A wall is something that's so simple in form it 713 00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:45,760 Speaker 1: it almost asks to be taken very much at face value. 714 00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:48,600 Speaker 1: But given what we know about history, we we should 715 00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:51,000 Speaker 1: do exactly the opposite. I mean, you shouldn't just take 716 00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:53,920 Speaker 1: it at face value. It's actually, uh, this almost kind 717 00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:57,520 Speaker 1: of magical, talismanic kind of thing. Yeah, really coming back 718 00:40:57,560 --> 00:40:59,440 Speaker 1: around to the idea of of a wall as a 719 00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:02,400 Speaker 1: kind of magical spell. You know, we mentioned Game of Thrones, 720 00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:05,839 Speaker 1: but we really didn't get into fictional walls much at all. 721 00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:12,040 Speaker 1: But when we look to literature, films, music, their walls 722 00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:15,359 Speaker 1: pop up quite frequently. I mean, one key example being 723 00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:18,759 Speaker 1: Pink Floyd's uh treatment of the Wall. You can tell 724 00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:20,879 Speaker 1: a lot about a person by what Pink Floyd they 725 00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:25,200 Speaker 1: like best. Do they like the like dark, screaming, depressing 726 00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:28,760 Speaker 1: like the Wall and UH animals kind of Pink Floyd, 727 00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:31,359 Speaker 1: Or do they like the classic rock radio dark side 728 00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:33,399 Speaker 1: of the moon kind of pink Floyd. Or do they 729 00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:36,920 Speaker 1: like the psychedelic, freak out astronomy dominate kind of pink Floyd. 730 00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:40,279 Speaker 1: That's like, that's basically the three kinds of humans. No, 731 00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:41,920 Speaker 1: it's not, that's right. There would have to be at 732 00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:45,600 Speaker 1: least a fourth category for people who don't like pink Floyd. Yeah, 733 00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:47,719 Speaker 1: and maybe there's another category for people who just like 734 00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:51,759 Speaker 1: the song the Warrior Shooting at the Walls a heart heartache, yeah, 735 00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:54,920 Speaker 1: shooting out, Yeah, you know what? That is my favorite 736 00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:57,879 Speaker 1: the Wall song. Absolutely. All right, Well, now it's time 737 00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:00,920 Speaker 1: for us to stop as well. Obviously, we'd love to 738 00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:04,040 Speaker 1: hear from everybody out there, your experience with with walls, 739 00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:07,440 Speaker 1: some of your favorite examples from history and modern times, 740 00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:11,520 Speaker 1: your favorite examples from from film and literature and music. 741 00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:16,080 Speaker 1: All that is fair game. You can find us online 742 00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:20,080 Speaker 1: the mother ship for this particular podcast is invention pod 743 00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:23,319 Speaker 1: dot com. That's where you'll find all the episodes of 744 00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:25,200 Speaker 1: the show that we've put out so far, as well 745 00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:28,759 Speaker 1: as uh a few links out to social media and 746 00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:31,800 Speaker 1: if you if you want to support the show, I 747 00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:33,320 Speaker 1: would say the best thing you can do is to 748 00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:35,759 Speaker 1: rate and review Invention wherever you have the power to 749 00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:38,040 Speaker 1: do so, and make sure that you've subscribed. Big thanks 750 00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:41,160 Speaker 1: to Scott Benjamin for research assistance on this episode and 751 00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:45,319 Speaker 1: to our excellent audio producer TORII Harrison. If you would 752 00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:47,800 Speaker 1: like to get in touch with us directly with feedback 753 00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:51,000 Speaker 1: on this episode, with suggestions for future topics, or just 754 00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:54,239 Speaker 1: to say hello, you can email us at contact at 755 00:42:54,560 --> 00:43:04,640 Speaker 1: invention pod dot com th week very day. You can 756 00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:05,680 Speaker 1: sure your la