WEBVTT - #218 Jason Flom and Kim Kardashian on Julius Jones 0:00:00.480 --> 0:00:03.080 Since our initial release of Julius Jones's story, there have 0:00:03.160 --> 0:00:06.120 been some exciting new developments. This is a re release 0:00:06.160 --> 0:00:09.080 of that story with brand new content. But before we 0:00:09.160 --> 0:00:11.800 reveal the newly discovered evidence and what it means for 0:00:11.880 --> 0:00:15.360 Julius Jones's wrongful conviction, we need to address the issue 0:00:15.360 --> 0:00:18.360 that's working its way through Federal District Court in Oklahoma 0:00:18.480 --> 0:00:21.560 right now. What I'm referring to, of course, is the 0:00:21.560 --> 0:00:23.959 case that has been to the US Supreme Court that 0:00:24.000 --> 0:00:27.400 we discussed at length in our coverage of its leading plaintiff, 0:00:27.600 --> 0:00:30.680 Richard Glossop. If you would like a fuller understanding of 0:00:30.720 --> 0:00:33.400 why there has been a moratorium on executions at Oklahoma 0:00:33.400 --> 0:00:36.800 since twenty fifteen, we'll have Richard's story linked in this 0:00:36.880 --> 0:00:42.199 episode's bio. However, that case obviously directly affects everyone on 0:00:42.240 --> 0:00:46.559 death row in Oklahoma, including Julius Jones. What's an issue 0:00:46.760 --> 0:00:50.040 is that both pharma companies and foreign governments are part 0:00:50.080 --> 0:00:53.640 of a concerted effort to starve America and about nine 0:00:53.840 --> 0:00:57.480 other countries that still use the death penalty of the 0:00:57.560 --> 0:01:01.040 drugs that are used in lethal injections. Shortage of approved 0:01:01.160 --> 0:01:04.440 lethal injection drugs has led Oklahoma and other states to 0:01:04.520 --> 0:01:08.640 move forward with executions using substitute drugs for the approved 0:01:08.680 --> 0:01:12.039 ones in their state's protocol, a practice that has caused 0:01:12.560 --> 0:01:17.160 many botched executions now. Since twenty fifteen, death row inmates 0:01:17.160 --> 0:01:20.200 have been fighting Oklahoma in court over the Eighth Amendment 0:01:20.240 --> 0:01:24.120 issue of whether these substitute drugs and the subsequent botched 0:01:24.160 --> 0:01:28.640 executions they cause constitute cruel and unusual punishment. In the 0:01:28.680 --> 0:01:32.600 case of Clayton Lockett, who writhed on the execution guaranty 0:01:32.680 --> 0:01:35.920 for forty three full minutes, I'm going to go with yes, 0:01:36.080 --> 0:01:40.160 it sure does. On August eleventh, twenty twenty one, a 0:01:40.240 --> 0:01:44.440 federal judge, Stephen Friat in Oklahoma issued an opinion and 0:01:44.520 --> 0:01:46.440 said he wants to have a trial on whether the 0:01:46.520 --> 0:01:49.760 drugs Oklahoma plans to use in executions will cause a 0:01:49.840 --> 0:01:54.640 constitutionally unacceptable risk of pain. That trial will take place 0:01:54.680 --> 0:01:57.840 in early twenty twenty two. This drug issue is just 0:01:58.160 --> 0:02:02.240 more proof that we have no business and no right 0:02:02.600 --> 0:02:06.120 to continue executing people, just in case the innocence of 0:02:06.200 --> 0:02:12.840 men like Julius Jones wasn't already enough. On July twenty eighth, 0:02:12.919 --> 0:02:15.600 nineteen ninety nine, Paul Howell was shot twice at a 0:02:15.680 --> 0:02:19.799 driveway to Edmond, Oklahoma, in a robbery for his GMC suburban. 0:02:20.760 --> 0:02:23.560 According to his sister, the shooter was an African American 0:02:23.600 --> 0:02:26.120 male wearing a red band down across his face and 0:02:26.200 --> 0:02:28.320 a stocking cap with up to an inch of hair 0:02:28.440 --> 0:02:33.320 sticking out from the bottom. According to numerous non incentivized 0:02:33.320 --> 0:02:36.639 sworn Affi Davids, the co defendant in this case, Chris Jordan, 0:02:36.919 --> 0:02:40.440 has since bragged about being the shooter and framing his 0:02:40.520 --> 0:02:44.359 former friend Julius Jones on the night of the shooting. 0:02:44.760 --> 0:02:48.359 Julius was at home with his family. The evening following 0:02:48.360 --> 0:02:51.280 the murder, Chris Jordan spent the night at the Joneses, 0:02:51.400 --> 0:02:54.040 which was when he said he hit the gun in 0:02:54.080 --> 0:02:58.320 a second story call space. Confidential informants in the stolen 0:02:58.360 --> 0:03:00.880 car trade, including a long time so to Chris Jordan 0:03:00.960 --> 0:03:06.800 Ladell King, deflective investigators toward Chris Jordan and Julius. Chris 0:03:06.880 --> 0:03:12.720 eventually gave seven statements riddled with inconsistencies, blaming Julius Jones 0:03:12.720 --> 0:03:16.800 for the murder. On July thirtieth, police searched at Jones's 0:03:16.800 --> 0:03:20.240 home and found the gun exactly what Chris Jordan is 0:03:20.280 --> 0:03:24.360 believed to have hidden it. With nothing presented to defend 0:03:24.400 --> 0:03:27.720 against the planted evidence and the incentivized testimony of Ladel 0:03:27.840 --> 0:03:32.280 King and Chris Jordan, Julius was sent to Oklahoma's death row. 0:03:32.320 --> 0:03:35.160 On this episode, we team up with one of Julius's 0:03:35.280 --> 0:03:39.560 fiercest advocates, Kim Kardashian, as we speak with his attorney, 0:03:39.720 --> 0:03:44.240 Dale Bash and his mother and sister, Madeline and Antoineae Jones. 0:03:45.320 --> 0:04:02.000 This is Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flopper Today we're here 0:04:02.040 --> 0:04:04.320 to talk about Julius Jones, who has been on death 0:04:04.360 --> 0:04:07.960 row in Oklahoma for over twenty years for crime eden't commit. 0:04:08.720 --> 0:04:12.000 And I'd like to welcome a very special guest. You'll 0:04:12.040 --> 0:04:15.240 recognize her name and you'll recognize her from having been 0:04:15.280 --> 0:04:19.279 on this podcast before. Kim Kardashian West, Welcome back to 0:04:19.360 --> 0:04:21.120 Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flohm. 0:04:21.600 --> 0:04:23.120 Hi, thank you for having me again. 0:04:23.440 --> 0:04:26.360 I can't overstate the importance of you being here today 0:04:26.360 --> 0:04:29.479 with us, Kim, because if we don't take every possible 0:04:29.520 --> 0:04:32.080 action that we can, and I mean the audience too, 0:04:32.200 --> 0:04:35.000 Julius will be executed in Oklahoma as early as this 0:04:35.080 --> 0:04:38.600 fall for crime we know he didn't commit Kim, can 0:04:38.640 --> 0:04:40.839 you tell us when you first heard about this case. 0:04:41.360 --> 0:04:46.760 Yeah, I first started to receive letters. They were from 0:04:46.800 --> 0:04:51.120 a woman named Terry McCarthy, probably thirty letters from her, 0:04:51.720 --> 0:04:55.919 and she was kind of reiterating the same information about 0:04:56.040 --> 0:05:01.799 Julius and mentioned the documentary with Iola Davis. So I thought, 0:05:01.960 --> 0:05:05.760 I have to look into this. And I say this 0:05:05.880 --> 0:05:08.839 all the time because we have such an amazing group 0:05:08.880 --> 0:05:13.560 of people, between you and Scott Budnick, my attorneys and everyone. 0:05:14.440 --> 0:05:18.599 When all of the big players really feel the same 0:05:18.680 --> 0:05:22.159 way about a case, I know that we have to 0:05:22.200 --> 0:05:25.640 be loud, and I feel in my soul that we 0:05:25.760 --> 0:05:29.800 are early enough because an execution date for Julius hasn't 0:05:29.839 --> 0:05:33.359 been set yet that I feel like now is the 0:05:33.440 --> 0:05:35.880 time where we all just have to come together and 0:05:36.080 --> 0:05:37.880 really make a difference in his life. 0:05:38.360 --> 0:05:41.200 What about this particular case, about his case makes you 0:05:41.400 --> 0:05:44.760 so passionate and what sticks out to you the most 0:05:44.839 --> 0:05:46.360 about Julius's case. 0:05:46.680 --> 0:05:51.760 There's a few things. Being a young honor role student athlete, 0:05:52.000 --> 0:05:56.600 you have your whole life ahead of you. Everyone around 0:05:57.400 --> 0:06:00.440 always says what an amazing person he is that grew 0:06:00.480 --> 0:06:05.000 up with him, His coaches and then to see getting 0:06:05.000 --> 0:06:09.560 caught up with the wrong group of people and getting 0:06:09.600 --> 0:06:13.159 set up. The way he was just really rubbed me 0:06:13.200 --> 0:06:17.440 the wrong way. That someone's life, a young kid's life, 0:06:17.720 --> 0:06:21.159 was just taken away. It always goes back to me 0:06:21.240 --> 0:06:24.080 thinking about what if that was my son? What would 0:06:24.120 --> 0:06:28.000 I do if my son got set up like this? 0:06:29.000 --> 0:06:31.760 So we got to fight for this guy, We got 0:06:31.800 --> 0:06:33.919 to help him get his life back. 0:06:35.320 --> 0:06:37.440 The next voice you hear is going to be the 0:06:37.560 --> 0:06:41.760 voice of Dale Bash, an assistant federal public defender who 0:06:41.839 --> 0:06:47.479 is definitely doing his part to help to unravel this nightmare. 0:06:48.120 --> 0:06:49.560 When did you get involved with it? 0:06:50.080 --> 0:06:55.479 In twenty and sixteen, our office was appointed to represent 0:06:55.560 --> 0:06:57.920 Julius in clemency proceedings. 0:06:58.040 --> 0:07:01.120 And this really is a terrible I mean, you have 0:07:01.440 --> 0:07:04.640 Paul Howell, a forty five year old George deacon and 0:07:04.720 --> 0:07:07.919 business owner, family guy, returning to his parents' home in 0:07:07.920 --> 0:07:10.800 the Oklahoma City suburb of Edmund from a school supply 0:07:10.920 --> 0:07:13.760 shopping trip with his seven and nine year old daughters 0:07:13.760 --> 0:07:17.080 and his sister, Megan Toby in the car. Now, as 0:07:17.120 --> 0:07:20.800 he was getting out of the nineteen ninety seven GMC suburban, 0:07:20.960 --> 0:07:23.640 a black man and a stocking cap with about an 0:07:23.640 --> 0:07:26.280 inch of hair sticking out from the bottom and a 0:07:26.320 --> 0:07:29.760 red bandana tied around his face. Stepped up to Paul 0:07:30.040 --> 0:07:33.840 and demanded the suburban and fired his gun twice, mortally 0:07:33.880 --> 0:07:39.280 wounding Paul. As his daughters and sister ran screaming to 0:07:39.360 --> 0:07:42.320 the house for cover, the gunman sped away in the suburban. 0:07:42.440 --> 0:07:44.520 And from what we know now, and remember this is 0:07:44.560 --> 0:07:47.080 an addition to what was known when we first released 0:07:47.080 --> 0:07:51.120 this episode, according to three men and counting, not just 0:07:51.200 --> 0:07:54.120 the original two. These are three men who all knew 0:07:54.200 --> 0:07:57.080 Chris Jordan in prison and or in jail. And none 0:07:57.120 --> 0:08:00.559 of these men have been incentivized in any way, okay, 0:08:01.000 --> 0:08:04.400 and they've all sworn to have been told by Chris 0:08:04.520 --> 0:08:07.880 Jordan directly that Chris did this shooting and that his 0:08:08.040 --> 0:08:11.840 former friend Julius Jones was not involved. I mean, that's 0:08:12.040 --> 0:08:15.440 powerful stuff right there. Okay. But at the time of 0:08:15.480 --> 0:08:19.640 this investigation, the cops went looking for the usual suspects 0:08:19.640 --> 0:08:21.800 in the stolen car trade. First, they went to a 0:08:21.840 --> 0:08:24.920 guy named Kermit Lottie. He led them to laddel King, 0:08:25.240 --> 0:08:27.920 who was an associate of Chris Jordan, who then led 0:08:27.920 --> 0:08:32.480 them to Jordan and eventually Julius Jones, But the cops 0:08:32.920 --> 0:08:36.719 caught Chris Jordan first, Right, So can you walk us 0:08:36.960 --> 0:08:39.880 through some of the things that Chris Jordan told them? 0:08:40.080 --> 0:08:44.960 Sure. On July twenty eighth, nineteen ninety nine. According to 0:08:45.400 --> 0:08:48.880 Chris Jordan, who is a co defendant in this case, 0:08:49.080 --> 0:08:54.040 he and Julius were driving around looking for a suburban 0:08:54.120 --> 0:08:58.880 to jack. They spotted a car, followed it into a neighborhood, 0:08:59.080 --> 0:09:03.200 and according to to Chris Jordan, Julius jumped out of 0:09:03.200 --> 0:09:06.520 the car when the car pulled into the driveway and 0:09:06.760 --> 0:09:10.760 shot Paul Howell. When Chris Jordan was taken into custody, 0:09:10.960 --> 0:09:14.960 that's what he told the police, and they immediately focused 0:09:15.000 --> 0:09:20.160 on Julius tunnel vision set in. But what we now 0:09:20.200 --> 0:09:24.760 know is Chris made seven different statements to the police, 0:09:25.280 --> 0:09:30.720 and those statements were inconsistent, and at one point the 0:09:30.760 --> 0:09:34.400 police say, what you're telling us, it's not adding up. 0:09:34.800 --> 0:09:38.880 We don't have this backwards, do we. So the police 0:09:39.200 --> 0:09:43.600 knew that there were problems with what Chris was telling them, 0:09:43.920 --> 0:09:46.559 but the police continued to focus on Julius. 0:09:46.880 --> 0:09:50.080 And something that really struck me when reading about this 0:09:50.280 --> 0:09:54.160 case is that, according to the non incentivized witnesses who 0:09:54.240 --> 0:09:57.600 knew Chris Jordan in jail, prison or both, as well 0:09:57.720 --> 0:10:00.760 as to statements that Jordan himself if later made to 0:10:00.800 --> 0:10:04.560 the police. Chris Jordan on the night after the shooting, 0:10:04.720 --> 0:10:07.840 but before he was arrested and gave his initial statement, 0:10:08.760 --> 0:10:12.760 slept at the Joneses home. Chris left to Jones' home, 0:10:12.800 --> 0:10:15.680 which is where he said he stashed the murder weapon. 0:10:16.360 --> 0:10:20.319 So on its face, the gun being found at the 0:10:20.440 --> 0:10:24.800 Joneses looks damning for Julius at that time, but now 0:10:25.040 --> 0:10:28.240 in hindsight, it just further points in the direction of 0:10:28.320 --> 0:10:29.880 Chris Jordan's culpability. 0:10:30.559 --> 0:10:35.560 Well, we know that when Chris was interviewed by the police, 0:10:36.080 --> 0:10:39.280 he was asked, so you hid the murder weapon, and 0:10:39.400 --> 0:10:44.520 he responded yeah. Chris also told one of the men 0:10:44.600 --> 0:10:47.480 that he spoke to while in custody in the county 0:10:47.600 --> 0:10:50.839 jail that he wrapped the gun used to commit the 0:10:50.920 --> 0:10:55.719 murder and hid it in Julius's parent's house. We understand 0:10:56.000 --> 0:11:01.160 that Chris was sitting in a police car outside of 0:11:01.280 --> 0:11:06.200 Julius's house after the police stormed the home and then 0:11:06.480 --> 0:11:11.720 went looking for the gun and immediately went to where 0:11:11.840 --> 0:11:15.199 we think Chris told them the gun would be located. 0:11:15.400 --> 0:11:20.960 We also know that there were other people involved, namely Kermit, 0:11:21.040 --> 0:11:24.120 Lotti and ladel King, that had a lot to gain 0:11:24.320 --> 0:11:29.120 by pointing in Julius's direction and away from themselves. 0:11:29.360 --> 0:11:31.400 Can you tell us about Kermit and Laddell. 0:11:32.000 --> 0:11:35.960 Kermit Lottie was a man who ran a chop shop 0:11:36.200 --> 0:11:39.960 on the south side of Oklahoma City and it was 0:11:40.000 --> 0:11:44.120 a well known establishment in the trade of stealing cars. 0:11:44.400 --> 0:11:50.120 Laddel King was a close confidant of Kermit's and was 0:11:50.240 --> 0:11:54.200 known for his involvement in that trade. Ladel King was 0:11:54.280 --> 0:11:59.720 also a confidential informant and in exchange for providing information 0:11:59.840 --> 0:12:03.079 to the police, he would be allowed to carry on 0:12:03.280 --> 0:12:07.160 with some of his illegal activities. At the time of 0:12:07.280 --> 0:12:12.880 Julius's trial, Liddell King was facing bogus check charges and 0:12:13.200 --> 0:12:17.200 as an habitual offender, he was looking to twenty years, 0:12:17.480 --> 0:12:21.880 and in exchange for his testimony, he got ten years probation. 0:12:22.200 --> 0:12:25.720 Liddell was one of the guys that pointed the finger 0:12:25.960 --> 0:12:27.000 at Julius. 0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:31.880 So this paints a pretty strong picture of a sort 0:12:31.920 --> 0:12:32.480 of a unit. 0:12:32.600 --> 0:12:32.800 Right. 0:12:32.880 --> 0:12:37.800 You had Chris Jordan, who was a troubled kid. You 0:12:37.840 --> 0:12:42.680 have these two other known criminals, particularly ensconced in the 0:12:42.760 --> 0:12:45.679 stolen car business, and then you have a car that 0:12:45.720 --> 0:12:49.360 gets stolen in a violent robbery tragic death. But we 0:12:49.520 --> 0:12:54.000 know a number of things that would make anyone go wait. 0:12:54.280 --> 0:12:56.800 I mean, for instance, we know that the number of 0:12:56.840 --> 0:12:59.480 shellcasing stunted the scene was something that was known and 0:12:59.559 --> 0:13:02.720 volunteer seared by Chris and his interrogation before the police 0:13:02.720 --> 0:13:05.680 even asked or suggested it. We know that the witnesses 0:13:05.720 --> 0:13:11.400 were incentivized. We know that the description matches someone very 0:13:11.480 --> 0:13:14.079 much like Chris Jordan, who doesn't look like Julius. 0:13:14.320 --> 0:13:18.720 Megan Toby, Mister Howell's sister was in the car with 0:13:18.840 --> 0:13:22.200 him when he pulled into the driveway, and she testified 0:13:22.280 --> 0:13:26.040 that she saw the person who shot her brother, and 0:13:26.120 --> 0:13:31.440 she described him as African American, wearing a red bandana 0:13:31.679 --> 0:13:36.200 across his face, wearing a black stocking cap, and half 0:13:36.240 --> 0:13:39.120 an inch of hair hanging out from under the cap. 0:13:39.280 --> 0:13:45.240 What's critical about that is Julius wore his hair close crop, 0:13:45.559 --> 0:13:48.959 very short. Chris Jordan, on the other hand, wore his 0:13:49.040 --> 0:13:53.160 hair in braids. And how do we know that Julius's 0:13:53.200 --> 0:13:58.199 hair was short? Ten days prior to mister Howell's murder, 0:13:58.400 --> 0:14:01.720 Julius got picked up on traffic stop and had a 0:14:01.800 --> 0:14:06.400 mug shot taken, so there's an official government photo of 0:14:06.520 --> 0:14:11.520 Julius with short hair, and that photograph was never shown 0:14:11.600 --> 0:14:16.079 to the jury at trial. We also know that Julius 0:14:16.200 --> 0:14:19.840 was at home with his family at the time mister 0:14:19.880 --> 0:14:25.280 Howell was shot and killed, and later that evening, Chris 0:14:25.360 --> 0:14:30.160 and Julius were supposed to drive down to Norman, Oklahoma, 0:14:30.200 --> 0:14:34.240 which is about twenty minutes south of Oklahoma City. Julius 0:14:34.360 --> 0:14:38.240 was at home getting a little agitated because Chris said 0:14:38.280 --> 0:14:41.280 he would be there early in the evening and Kristen 0:14:41.280 --> 0:14:44.480 would show up until close to midnight. 0:14:44.760 --> 0:14:48.080 We also have with us Julius's sister Antoinette and his 0:14:48.120 --> 0:14:51.520 mother Madeline. Now Here you have a son who is 0:14:51.600 --> 0:14:55.560 excelling in so many ways, a co captain of three 0:14:55.600 --> 0:15:01.560 different sports teams in high school, academic scholarship, Oklahoma University, 0:15:01.960 --> 0:15:05.520 great looking young man with his whole life laid out 0:15:05.520 --> 0:15:10.000 in front of him, and then everything takes a terrible, 0:15:10.200 --> 0:15:11.000 terrible turn. 0:15:11.320 --> 0:15:18.040 It's been a twenty plus year shock, and I really 0:15:18.120 --> 0:15:21.680 can't often find the words to explain what it's been 0:15:21.840 --> 0:15:24.200 like we just got blindsided. 0:15:24.680 --> 0:15:27.320 It sure seems like you went from the American dream 0:15:27.400 --> 0:15:31.760 to the American nightmare. And let's go to that faithful night. 0:15:31.920 --> 0:15:35.120 July twenty eighth, nineteen ninety nine. Can you tell us 0:15:35.280 --> 0:15:38.000 what was happening that night and why and how you 0:15:38.080 --> 0:15:40.080 know that Julius could not possibly have been there. 0:15:40.760 --> 0:15:44.240 That was a kind of a busy day for us. 0:15:44.600 --> 0:15:50.440 I was trying to do Antoinette's hair, I was fixing spaghetti, 0:15:51.160 --> 0:15:55.600 but Julius was there all day long. They played monopoly. 0:15:55.920 --> 0:15:57.880 There were a few of us playing monopoly. Julius was 0:15:57.920 --> 0:16:03.320 there playing Monopoly, And for my oldest brother, Antonio and 0:16:04.200 --> 0:16:06.240 another young man that was over there, they got mad 0:16:06.280 --> 0:16:08.960 at me because I gave Guias all my money and property. 0:16:09.560 --> 0:16:11.000 I had to do that because I had to get 0:16:11.040 --> 0:16:14.120 my hair done. So it's specific things like that, like 0:16:14.160 --> 0:16:17.680 I know that it was around Jesus' birthday. Jessus friend 0:16:17.720 --> 0:16:20.560 had a big chocolate chip cookie that she gave to 0:16:20.640 --> 0:16:23.680 him for his birthday. Tony kept going in and out 0:16:23.680 --> 0:16:26.120 of the refrigerator to take pieces of the cookie. And 0:16:26.640 --> 0:16:29.280 later on that day, my brother Antonio had to go 0:16:29.320 --> 0:16:32.120 to work. My mother went to go take him to work. 0:16:32.360 --> 0:16:35.040 Julius looks in the refrigerator and he's like, oh my goodness. 0:16:35.040 --> 0:16:37.360 He was like, who ate my cooking? And I kid 0:16:37.400 --> 0:16:39.360 you not. He waited at the back door in the kitchen, 0:16:39.880 --> 0:16:42.120 pacing back and forth, waiting for Mom to come home, 0:16:42.160 --> 0:16:44.040 so he could tell that somebody ate his cookie. So 0:16:44.400 --> 0:16:46.680 I kind of was like, well, you know, I was like, Tony, 0:16:46.800 --> 0:16:49.840 h your cookie. And so I'll never forget that day. 0:16:50.120 --> 0:16:53.640 So it doesn't seem like someone who just murdered somebody 0:16:53.680 --> 0:16:57.280 would be particularly concerned over how much of a cookie 0:16:57.440 --> 0:17:00.560 was left in the refrigerator or not. I mean, that's 0:17:00.600 --> 0:17:03.200 just one of many, many things, you know. So July 0:17:03.320 --> 0:17:06.000 twenty eighth, he's home with you. It sounds like sort 0:17:06.000 --> 0:17:10.000 of a typical family night. But then things changed dramatically 0:17:10.040 --> 0:17:13.280 in the next thirty six hours. Right the twenty ninth, 0:17:13.960 --> 0:17:16.840 Chris is at your home, right, He spent the night 0:17:16.920 --> 0:17:19.560 that night, which is when he had the opportunity to 0:17:19.600 --> 0:17:22.960 plant the gun. Do you recall Chris being at your 0:17:22.960 --> 0:17:23.760 house that night? 0:17:24.240 --> 0:17:29.680 Thursday was trash day and Jus usually takes a trash 0:17:29.720 --> 0:17:33.159 out and sometimes we sit and talk on the walkway, 0:17:33.400 --> 0:17:36.800 but Chris was kind of like a shadow was there? 0:17:37.119 --> 0:17:38.960 Answer that were you there that night? Do you remember 0:17:38.960 --> 0:17:40.119 if Chris was at the house. 0:17:40.680 --> 0:17:43.320 I know Chris was there because I heard him come 0:17:43.400 --> 0:17:46.440 upstairs and go into the room that was Julius's. 0:17:46.600 --> 0:17:49.480 The very next day, the police would surround the Jones' house. 0:17:49.600 --> 0:17:52.480 Julius family was purp walked out of their own home, 0:17:52.920 --> 0:17:55.080 and Chris Jordan would be in a police car out 0:17:55.119 --> 0:17:57.800 front to tell them exactly where the murder weapon was hidden. 0:17:58.560 --> 0:18:02.440 Julius was appointed attorney mister Barry Albert, who was known 0:18:02.480 --> 0:18:05.879 for his skill and unorthodox but effective courtroom style. But 0:18:05.960 --> 0:18:10.720 mister Albert he died shortly before the trial, leaving his 0:18:10.800 --> 0:18:15.600 new public defenders woefully unprepared, so much so that they 0:18:15.600 --> 0:18:18.120 didn't put on any defense whatsoever. 0:18:18.880 --> 0:18:23.040 When it came time for Julius to present his case, 0:18:23.680 --> 0:18:28.000 the lawyers simply stood up and said the defense rests. 0:18:28.640 --> 0:18:33.160 The lawyers did not put on testimony from the family 0:18:33.320 --> 0:18:37.399 who would have presented an alibi. The lawyers did not 0:18:37.880 --> 0:18:42.560 investigate and present evidence from two people who were in 0:18:42.720 --> 0:18:47.160 jail who didn't know each other and independently came forward 0:18:47.240 --> 0:18:51.200 and said that Chris Jordan told them that he said 0:18:51.280 --> 0:18:54.280 Julius up. He told one of the men that he 0:18:54.440 --> 0:18:58.720 planted the weapon in Julius's house, and he told both 0:18:58.760 --> 0:19:00.760 of the men that he would be getting out of 0:19:00.920 --> 0:19:05.199 prison after serving a fifteen year sentence in exchange for 0:19:05.359 --> 0:19:11.879 his testimony against Julius. The inconsistent statements that Chris made 0:19:11.920 --> 0:19:17.680 to the police during his interrogation were never explored by 0:19:17.720 --> 0:19:21.640 the defense when they had an opportunity to cross examine Chris. 0:19:22.200 --> 0:19:27.400 It's an inexplicable lapse. In fact, it's totally understandable why 0:19:27.400 --> 0:19:29.240 the jury would have voted to convict. They didn't have 0:19:29.280 --> 0:19:31.879 any information to work with except what the state was saying. 0:19:32.200 --> 0:19:36.919 What was it like seeing your baby going through this trial. 0:19:37.320 --> 0:19:40.600 Well, at the beginning, I was very confident because the 0:19:40.840 --> 0:19:45.720 attorney that we had, mister Abbott, he was very thorough 0:19:45.760 --> 0:19:47.439 and he talked to us and he said, I just 0:19:47.560 --> 0:19:52.560 need to get Chris on the stand. Mister Abbott had 0:19:52.560 --> 0:19:57.800 a plan before he passed away. The opponent attorneys they 0:19:57.880 --> 0:20:02.560 wanted more time after he passed away. Then they wanted 0:20:02.600 --> 0:20:06.520 to immediately start up with trial and everything. And we 0:20:06.520 --> 0:20:09.760 were there every day. But one of the excuses after 0:20:09.920 --> 0:20:13.399 miss Sabatt had passed. They said the reason they didn't 0:20:13.440 --> 0:20:16.480 call us on the standing after they had sentenced Julius 0:20:16.840 --> 0:20:20.800 because they didn't know we were there. It was just 0:20:21.359 --> 0:20:22.080 a mockery. 0:20:23.440 --> 0:20:25.840 I was devastated. I was devastated when I heard the 0:20:25.880 --> 0:20:28.720 word we rest. I think I was a little older 0:20:28.760 --> 0:20:32.360 than thirteen, and I didn't understand how you couldn't put 0:20:32.400 --> 0:20:35.000 people on the stand to help my brothers defense. There 0:20:35.040 --> 0:20:37.760 was no defense there and that, I mean that, just 0:20:38.320 --> 0:20:39.800 that pisces me off. 0:20:49.520 --> 0:20:53.879 This episode is underwritten by Paul Weiss Rifkin, Porton and Garrison, 0:20:54.040 --> 0:20:57.560 a leading international law firm. Paul Weiss has long had 0:20:57.600 --> 0:21:00.560 an unwavering commitment to providing impact. I have full pro 0:21:00.640 --> 0:21:03.480 bono legal assistance to the most vulnerable members of our 0:21:03.520 --> 0:21:07.639 society and in support of the public interest, including extensive 0:21:07.680 --> 0:21:12.479 work in the criminal justice area. 0:21:19.280 --> 0:21:24.280 It infuriates me to hear when cases when there's ineffective counsel. 0:21:24.640 --> 0:21:28.399 It just makes me so mad, especially if it's an 0:21:28.440 --> 0:21:31.439 appointed attorney, that you think that if you don't have 0:21:31.480 --> 0:21:33.480 the money to afford an attorney, and so you're getting 0:21:33.520 --> 0:21:36.679 appointed one, that they're going to be ineffective and not 0:21:37.240 --> 0:21:38.840 help but actually hurt your case. 0:21:38.880 --> 0:21:39.399 So much. 0:21:39.520 --> 0:21:41.240 I mean, I don't know how I could live with 0:21:41.400 --> 0:21:46.240 myself if I was an attorney like that. But I think, 0:21:46.359 --> 0:21:50.600 especially with Julius's case, he just didn't get a fair trial. 0:21:50.880 --> 0:21:54.320 Bottom line, as we've heard, at Julius's trial, the defense 0:21:54.359 --> 0:21:57.040 didn't even give the jury much information to work with. 0:21:57.440 --> 0:21:59.960 But believe it or not, it gets. 0:21:59.760 --> 0:22:04.359 Even during the trial in the jury room, one of 0:22:04.400 --> 0:22:07.880 the jurors said out loud, why are we wasting our 0:22:08.000 --> 0:22:12.440 time here? We ought to just take that N out 0:22:12.560 --> 0:22:18.399 back and bury him outside the jail, And one of 0:22:18.440 --> 0:22:22.879 the jurors approached a bailiff, told him what she heard 0:22:23.000 --> 0:22:26.240 and asked to talk to the judge on the record. 0:22:26.280 --> 0:22:30.080 The judge sort of dismissed it as well. He could 0:22:30.080 --> 0:22:33.200 have been talking about Osama bin Laden. We don't know 0:22:33.280 --> 0:22:38.040 who the juror was talking about. Take the N word 0:22:38.720 --> 0:22:42.639 out of the equation. You still have a juror who 0:22:43.320 --> 0:22:47.119 made up his mind and was going to convict Julius 0:22:47.160 --> 0:22:50.960 and sentence him to death. Throw the N word in there, 0:22:51.600 --> 0:22:56.760 and the racism is just oozing from this case. We 0:22:56.920 --> 0:23:03.440 also know that between nineteen ninety and twoenty twelve, there 0:23:03.560 --> 0:23:09.040 was a study conducted in Oklahoma on race and the 0:23:09.080 --> 0:23:13.680 death penalty. The authors concluded that an African American male 0:23:13.960 --> 0:23:17.560 who is convicted of killing a white male is three 0:23:17.640 --> 0:23:21.360 times more likely to get the death penalty in Oklahoma. 0:23:22.240 --> 0:23:28.360 So at trial, yet racism incentivized lying witnesses and no 0:23:28.480 --> 0:23:32.040 defense whatsoever. So Dale, when you took on this case, 0:23:32.480 --> 0:23:34.359 you guys had your work cut out for you, to 0:23:34.440 --> 0:23:38.280 say the least. But there was a new law in 0:23:38.359 --> 0:23:41.919 place in Oklahoma that allowed you to do DNA testing 0:23:41.960 --> 0:23:45.880 and post conviction, So you tested the red bandana right. 0:23:46.280 --> 0:23:51.320 It was sitting in evidence for almost twenty years. Doctor 0:23:51.400 --> 0:23:55.480 Shapiro used to be with the Department of Forensic Biology 0:23:55.640 --> 0:23:59.760 at the Medical Examiner's Office in New York City, reviewed 0:23:59.800 --> 0:24:04.520 the DNA report that was produced by body Selmark and 0:24:04.680 --> 0:24:09.359 came to some conclusions. So one of the things that 0:24:09.880 --> 0:24:15.080 Megan Toby, the victim's sister, testified to was that the 0:24:15.160 --> 0:24:19.439 shooter yelled something at her is she was running away, 0:24:19.800 --> 0:24:25.600 And we identified a stain on the bandana, and we 0:24:25.640 --> 0:24:30.560 wanted to check if that stain was saliva, and it 0:24:30.640 --> 0:24:35.240 came back negative is to saliva. So we don't even 0:24:35.400 --> 0:24:41.240 know if that bandana was the same bandana that the 0:24:41.320 --> 0:24:45.840 assailant wore, because there's not the saliva stain on it 0:24:46.040 --> 0:24:49.880 that should be there, because the assailant yelled. 0:24:50.000 --> 0:24:53.560 Don't forget, this was July and Oklahoma, right, So you 0:24:53.680 --> 0:24:55.879 do have to suspend a lot of this belief to 0:24:55.920 --> 0:24:59.880 come up with the conclusion that someone Julius or any 0:25:00.000 --> 0:25:04.080 one is going to be in an extremely high pressure 0:25:04.080 --> 0:25:08.240 situation on a very hot day and not sweat or 0:25:08.400 --> 0:25:11.600 breathe into the bandanna that they're supposedly wearing on their face. 0:25:11.800 --> 0:25:14.119 We don't know. We'll never know whether the gun was 0:25:14.119 --> 0:25:16.480 wrapped in the bandana or whether the gun was taken 0:25:16.560 --> 0:25:19.479 and placed in the bandana by the authorities when they 0:25:19.520 --> 0:25:22.080 were taking it out. One would hope they would put 0:25:22.080 --> 0:25:24.800 it in an evidence bag instead, But the state made 0:25:24.800 --> 0:25:29.080 a big deal about the fact that there were several 0:25:29.080 --> 0:25:32.480 different people's DNA on this bandana, and that one of 0:25:32.520 --> 0:25:37.040 the people seems to be somewhat consistent with Julius. Can 0:25:37.080 --> 0:25:40.400 you elaborate on what that really means, because some people 0:25:40.440 --> 0:25:41.960 would look at that and go, oh, wait a minute, 0:25:42.000 --> 0:25:44.600