Speaker 1: Since our initial release of Julius Jones's story, there have
Speaker 1: been some exciting new developments. This is a rerelease of
Speaker 1: that story with brand new content. But before we reveal
Speaker 1: the newly discovered evidence and what it means for Julius
Speaker 1: Jones's wrongful conviction, we need to address the issue that's
Speaker 1: working its way through Federal District Court in Oklahoma right now.
Speaker 1: What I'm referring to, of course, is the case that
Speaker 1: has been to the U. S. Supreme Court that we
Speaker 1: discussed at length in our coverage of its leading plaintiff,
Speaker 1: Richard Glossop. If you would like a fuller understanding of
Speaker 1: why there has been a moratorium on executions at Oklahoma
Speaker 1: since two thousand and fifteen, will have Richard's story linked
Speaker 1: in this episode's bio. However, that case obviously directly affects
Speaker 1: everyone on death row in Oklahoma, including Julius Jones. What's
Speaker 1: an issue is that both pharma companies and foreign governments
Speaker 1: are part of a concerted effort to starve America and
Speaker 1: about nine other countries that still use the death penalty
Speaker 1: of the drugs that are used in lethal injections. The
Speaker 1: shortage of approved lethal injection drugs has led Oklahoma and
Speaker 1: other states to move forward with executions using substitute drugs
Speaker 1: for the approved ones in their states protocol, a practice
Speaker 1: that has caused many botched executions now. Since two thousand fifteen,
Speaker 1: death row inmates have been fighting Oklahoma in court over
Speaker 1: the Eighth Amendment issue of whether these substitute drugs and
Speaker 1: the subsequent botched executions they caused constitute cruel and unusual punishment.
Speaker 1: In the case of Clayton Lockett, who writhed on the
Speaker 1: execution guartintee for forty three full minutes, I'm gonna go
Speaker 1: with yes, it sure does. On August eleven, a federal judge,
Speaker 1: Stephen Friatt in Oklahoma issued an opinion and said he
Speaker 1: wants to have a trial and whether the drugs Oklahoma
Speaker 1: plans to use in executions will cause a constitutionally unacceptable
Speaker 1: risk of pain. That trial will take place in early
Speaker 1: This drug issue is just more proof that we have
Speaker 1: no business and no right to continue executing people, just
Speaker 1: in case the innocence of men like Julius Jones wasn't
Speaker 1: already enough. On July, Paul Howell was shot twice at
Speaker 1: a driveway to edmund Oklahoma, in a robbery for his
Speaker 1: GMC suburban. According to his sister, the shooter was an
Speaker 1: African American male wearing a red band down across his
Speaker 1: face and a stocking cap with up to an inch
Speaker 1: of hair sticking out from the bottom. According to numerous
Speaker 1: non incentivized sworn Affith David's, the co defendant in this case,
Speaker 1: Chris Jordan's, has since bragged about being the shooter and
Speaker 1: framing his former friend Julius Jones on the night of
Speaker 1: the shooting. Julius was at home with his family. The
Speaker 1: evening following the murder, Chris Jordan's spent the night at
Speaker 1: the Joneses, which was when he said he hit the
Speaker 1: gun in a second story call space. Confidential informants in
Speaker 1: the stolen car trade, including a long time and Chris
Speaker 1: Jordan's adele King, deflective investigators toward Chris Jordan and Julius.
Speaker 1: Chris eventually gave seven statements riddled with inconsistencies, blaming Julius
Speaker 1: Jones for the murder. On July thirty, police searched at
Speaker 1: Jones's home and found the gun exactly where Chris Jordan
Speaker 1: is believed to have hidden it, with nothing presented to
Speaker 1: defend against the planted evidence and the incentivized testimony of
Speaker 1: Ladel King and Chris Jordan's Julius was sent to Oklahoma's
Speaker 1: death row. On this episode, we team up with one
Speaker 1: of Julius's fierce's advocates, Kim Kardashian, as we speak with
Speaker 1: his attorney, Dale Bache and his mother and sister, Madeline
Speaker 1: and Antwina Jones. This is Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flopper
Speaker 1: Today we're here to talk about Julius Jones, who has
Speaker 1: been on death row in Oklahoma for over twenty years
Speaker 1: for crime hedn't commit. And I'd like to welcome a
Speaker 1: very special guest. You'll recognize her name and you recognize
Speaker 1: her from having been on this podcast before. Kim Kardashian West,
Speaker 1: Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason flam Hi, thank
Speaker 1: you for having me again. I can't overstate the importance
Speaker 1: of you being here today with us, Kim, because if
Speaker 1: we don't take every possible action that we can, and
Speaker 1: I mean the audience too, Julius will be executed in
Speaker 1: Oklahoma as early as this fall for a crime we
Speaker 1: know he didn't commit. Kim, can you tell us when
Speaker 1: you first heard about this case. Yeah, I first started
Speaker 1: to receive letters. They were from a woman named Terry McCarthy,
Speaker 1: probably thirty letters from her, and she was kind of
Speaker 1: reiterating the same information about Julius and mentioned the documentary
Speaker 1: with Oola Davis. So I thought, I have to look
Speaker 1: into this. And I say this all the time because
Speaker 1: we have such an amazing group of people between you
Speaker 1: and Scott bud Nick, my attorneys and everyone. When all
Speaker 1: of the big players really feel the same way about
Speaker 1: a case, I know that we have to be loud.
Speaker 1: And I feel in my soul that we are early
Speaker 1: enough because an execution date for Julius hasn't been set
Speaker 1: yet that I just I feel like now is the
Speaker 1: time where we all just have to come together and
Speaker 1: really make a difference in his life. What about this
Speaker 1: particular case, about his case makes you so passionate and
Speaker 1: what sticks out to you the most about Julius's case,
Speaker 1: There's a few things. Being a young, honorable student athlete,
Speaker 1: you have your whole life ahead of you. Everyone around
Speaker 1: always says what an amazing person he is that grew
Speaker 1: up with him, his coaches, and then to see getting
Speaker 1: caught up with the wrong group of people and getting
Speaker 1: set up. The way he was just really rubbed me
Speaker 1: the wrong way. That someone's life, a young kid's life,
Speaker 1: was just taken away. It always goes back to me
Speaker 1: thinking about what if that was my son? What would
Speaker 1: I do if my son got set up like this?
Speaker 1: So we gotta fight for this guy. We got to
Speaker 1: help him get his life back. The next voice you
Speaker 1: here is going to be the voice of Dale Bach,
Speaker 1: an assistant federal public defender who is definitely doing his
Speaker 1: part to help to unravel this nightmare. When did you
Speaker 1: get involved with it? In two thousand and sixteen, our
Speaker 1: office was appointed to represent Julius in clemency proceedings. And
Speaker 1: this really is a terrible prime. I mean, you have
Speaker 1: Paul Howell, a forty five year old church deacon and
Speaker 1: business owner. Family guy, returning to his parents home in
Speaker 1: the Oklahoma City suburb of Edmund from a school supply
Speaker 1: shopping trip with his seven and nine year old daughters
Speaker 1: and his sister, Megan Toby in the car. Now, as
Speaker 1: he was getting out of the GMC suburban, a black
Speaker 1: man and a stock and cap with about an inch
Speaker 1: of hair sticking out from the bottom and a red
Speaker 1: bandanna tied around his face, stepped up to Paul and
Speaker 1: demanded the suburban and fired his gun twice, mortally wounding Paul.
Speaker 1: As his daughters and sister ran screaming to the house
Speaker 1: for cover, the gunman sped away in the suburban. And
Speaker 1: from what we know now, and remember this is an
Speaker 1: addition to what was known when we first released this episode,
Speaker 1: according to three men and counting, not just the original two.
Speaker 1: These are three men who all knew Chris Jordan's in
Speaker 1: prison and or in jail. And none of these men
Speaker 1: have been incentivized in any way, okay, and they've all
Speaker 1: sworn to have been told by Chris Jordan directly that
Speaker 1: Chris did this shooting and that his former friend Julius
Speaker 1: Jones was not involved. I mean, that's powerful stuff right there. Okay.
Speaker 1: But at the time of this investigation, the cops went
Speaker 1: looking for the usual suspects in the stolen car trade. First,
Speaker 1: they went to a guy named Kermit Lottie. He led
Speaker 1: them to Liddell King, who was an associate of Chris Jordan's,
Speaker 1: who then led them to Jordan's and eventually Julius Jones.
Speaker 1: But the cops caught Chris Jordan's first right, So can
Speaker 1: you walk us through some of the things that Chris
Speaker 1: Jordan's told them? Sure. On July, according to Chris Jordan's,
Speaker 1: who is the co defendant in this case, he and
Speaker 1: Julius were driving around looking for a suburban to jack.
Speaker 1: They spotted a car, followed it into a neighborhood, and
Speaker 1: according to to Chris Jordan's, Julius jumped out of the
Speaker 1: car when the car pulled into the driveway and shot
Speaker 1: Paul Howell. When Chris Jordan was taken into custody, that's
Speaker 1: what he told the police, and they immediately focused on
Speaker 1: Julius tunnel vision set in. But what we now know
Speaker 1: is Chris made seven different statements to the police, and
Speaker 1: those statements were inconsistent, and at one point the police say,
Speaker 1: what you're telling us, it's not adding up. We don't
Speaker 1: have this backwards, do we. So the police knew that
Speaker 1: there were problems with what Chris was telling them, but
Speaker 1: the police continue to focus on Julius. And something that
Speaker 1: really struck me when reading about this case is that,
Speaker 1: according to the non incentivized witnesses who knew Chris Jordan
Speaker 1: in jail, prison, or both, as well as to statements
Speaker 1: that Jordan himself later made to the police. Chris Jordan's
Speaker 1: on the night after the shooting, but before he was
Speaker 1: arrested and gave his initial statement, slept at the Joneses home.
Speaker 1: Chris slept to the Jones's home, which is where he
Speaker 1: said he stashed the murder weapon. So on its face,
Speaker 1: the gun being found at the Jones's looks damning for
Speaker 1: Julius at that time, but now in hindsight, it just
Speaker 1: further points in the direction of Chris Jordan's culpability. Well,
Speaker 1: we know that when Chris was interviewed by the police,
Speaker 1: he was asked, so you hid the murder weapon and
Speaker 1: he responded yeah. Chris also told one of the men
Speaker 1: that he spoke to while in custody in the county
Speaker 1: jail that he wrapped the gun used to commit the
Speaker 1: murder and hid it in Julius's parents house. We understand
Speaker 1: that Chris was sitting in a police car outside of
Speaker 1: Julius's house after the police stormed the home and then
Speaker 1: went looking for the gun and immediately went to where
Speaker 1: we think Chris told them the gun would be located.
Speaker 1: We also know that there were other people involved, namely
Speaker 1: Kermit Lotti and Ladell King, that had a lot to
Speaker 1: gain by pointing in julius direction and away from themselves.
Speaker 1: Can you tell us about Kermit and Lidell. Kermit Lotti
Speaker 1: was a man who ran a chop shop on the
Speaker 1: south side of Oklahoma City and it was a well
Speaker 1: known establishment in the trade of stealing cars. Liddel King
Speaker 1: was a close confidante of Kermits and was known for
Speaker 1: his involvement in that trade. Ladell King was also a
Speaker 1: confidential informant and in exchange for providing information to the police,
Speaker 1: he would be allowed to carry on with some of
Speaker 1: his illegal activities. At the time of Julius's trial, Liddell
Speaker 1: King was facing bogus check charges and as a habitual offender,
Speaker 1: he was looking to twenty years, and in exchange for
Speaker 1: his testimony, he got ten years probation. Liddell was one
Speaker 1: of the guys that pointed the finger at Julius. So
Speaker 1: this paints a pretty strong picture of a sort of
Speaker 1: a unit. Right. You had Chris Jordan's who was a
Speaker 1: troubled kid. You had these two other known criminals, particularly
Speaker 1: ensconced in the stolen car business, and then you have
Speaker 1: a car that gets stolen in a violent property tragic death.
Speaker 1: But we know a number of things that would make
Speaker 1: anyone go wait. I mean, for instance, we know that
Speaker 1: the number of shellwcasing stunted the scene was something that
Speaker 1: was known in volunteer heared by Chris and his interrogation
Speaker 1: before the police even asked or suggested it. We know
Speaker 1: that the witnesses were incentivized. We know that the description
Speaker 1: matches someone very much like Chris Jordan's who doesn't look
Speaker 1: like Julius. Megan Toby. Mr Howell's sister was in the
Speaker 1: car with him when he pulled into the driveway, and
Speaker 1: she testified that she saw the person who shot her brother,
Speaker 1: and she described him as African American, wearing a red
Speaker 1: bandana across his face, wearing a black stocking cap, and
Speaker 1: half an inch of hair hanging out from under the cap.
Speaker 1: What's critical about that is Julius wore his hair close crop,
Speaker 1: very short. Chris Jordans, on the other hand, wore his
Speaker 1: hair in braids. And how do we know that Julius's
Speaker 1: hair was was short. Ten days prior to Mr Howell's murder,
Speaker 1: Julius got picked up on traffic stop and had a
Speaker 1: mug shot taken, so there's an official government photo of
Speaker 1: Julius with short hair, and that photograph was never shown
Speaker 1: to the jury at trial. We also know that Julius
Speaker 1: was at home with his family at the time Mr.
Speaker 1: Howell was shot and killed, and later that evening, Chris
Speaker 1: and Julius were supposed to drive down to Norman, Oklahoma,
Speaker 1: which is about twenty minutes south of Oklahoma City. Julius
Speaker 1: was at home getting a little agitated because Chris said
Speaker 1: he would be there early in the evening and Kristen
Speaker 1: and show up until close to midnight. We also have
Speaker 1: with us julius sister Antoinette and his mother Madeleine. Now Here,
Speaker 1: you have a son who is excelling in so many ways,
Speaker 1: co captain of three different sports teams in high school,
Speaker 1: academic scholarship at Oklahoma University, great looking young man with
Speaker 1: his whole life laid out in front of him, and
Speaker 1: then everything takes a terrible, terrible turn. It's been a
Speaker 1: twenty plus year shock and uh, I really can't often
Speaker 1: find the words to explain what it's been like. We
Speaker 1: just got blindsided. It sure seems like he went from
Speaker 1: the American Dream to the American Nightmare, and let's go
Speaker 1: to that faithful night July. Can you tell us what
Speaker 1: was happening that night and why and how you know
Speaker 1: that Julius could not possibly have been there. Uh, that
Speaker 1: was a kind of a busy day for us, and
Speaker 1: I was trying to do Antoinette's hair. I was fixing
Speaker 1: uh spaghetti, But Julius was there all day long. They
Speaker 1: played monopoly. There were a few of us for a monopoly.
Speaker 1: Julius was there for a monopoly and and my oldest brother,
Speaker 1: Antonio and another young man that was over there. They
Speaker 1: got mad at me because I gave Jesus all my
Speaker 1: money and property. I had to do that because I
Speaker 1: had to get my hair done. So it's specific things
Speaker 1: like that, Like I know that it was around jesus birthday.
Speaker 1: Jesus friend had a big chocolate chip cookie that she
Speaker 1: gave to him for his birthday. Tony kept going in
Speaker 1: and out of the refrigerator to take pieces of the cookie.
Speaker 1: And later on that day, my brother Antonio had to
Speaker 1: go to work. My mother went to go take him
Speaker 1: to work. Julius looks in refrigerator and he's like, oh,
Speaker 1: my goodness, he was like, who ate my cooking? And
Speaker 1: I kid you not. He waited at the back door
Speaker 1: in the kitchen, pacing back and forth, waiting for Mom
Speaker 1: to come home, so he could tell that somebody ate
Speaker 1: his cookie. So I kind of was like, well, you know,
Speaker 1: I was like, Tony, h your cookie, and so I'll
Speaker 1: never forget that that So it doesn't seem like someone
Speaker 1: who just murdered somebody would be particularly concerned over how
Speaker 1: much of a cookie was left in the refrigerator or not.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's just one of many, many things, you know.
Speaker 1: So July, he's home with you. It sounds like sort
Speaker 1: of a typical family night. But then things changed dramatically
Speaker 1: in the next thirty six hours. Right the twenty nine,
Speaker 1: Chris is at your home, right, he spent the night
Speaker 1: that night, which is when he had the opportunity to
Speaker 1: plant the gun. Do you recall Chris being at your
Speaker 1: house that night? Thursday? It was trash day and uh,
Speaker 1: Jews usually take some my trash outain sometimes we sit
Speaker 1: and talk on the walk away. But Chris was kind
Speaker 1: of like a shadow was there and when that were
Speaker 1: you there that night? Do you remember if Chris was
Speaker 1: at the house, I know Chris was there because I
Speaker 1: heard him come upstairs and going to the room that
Speaker 1: was Julius. The very next day, the police would surround
Speaker 1: the Jones house. Julia's family was perp walked out of
Speaker 1: their own home, and Chris Jordan's would be in a
Speaker 1: police car out front to tell them exactly where the
Speaker 1: murder weapon was hidden. Julius was appointed to an attorney, Mr.
Speaker 1: Barry Albert, who was known for his skill and unorthodox
Speaker 1: but effective courtroom style. But Mr Albert he died shortly
Speaker 1: before the trial, leaving his new public defenders woefully unprepared,
Speaker 1: so much so that they didn't put on any defense whatsoever.
Speaker 1: When it came time for Julius to present his case,
Speaker 1: the lawyers simply stood up and said the defense rests.
Speaker 1: The lawyers did not put on testimony from the family
Speaker 1: who would have presented an alibi. The lawyers did not
Speaker 1: investigate and present evidence from two people who were in
Speaker 1: jail who didn't know each other and independently came forward
Speaker 1: and said that Chris Jordan's told them that he said
Speaker 1: Julius up. He told one of the men that he
Speaker 1: planted the weapon in Julius's house, and he told both
Speaker 1: of the men that he would getting out of prison
Speaker 1: after serving a fifteen year sentence in exchange for his
Speaker 1: testimony against Julius. The inconsistent statements that Chris made to
Speaker 1: the police during his interrogation were never explored by the
Speaker 1: defense when they had an opportunity to cross examine Chris.
Speaker 1: It's an inexplicable lapse. In fact, it's totally understandable why
Speaker 1: the jury would have voted to convict. They didn't have
Speaker 1: any information to work with except what the state was saying.
Speaker 1: What was it like, uh, seeing your your baby going
Speaker 1: through this trial. Well, at the beginning, I was very
Speaker 1: confident because the attorney that we had, Mr Abbot, he
Speaker 1: was very thorough and he talked to us and he said,
Speaker 1: I just need to get Chris on the stand. Mr
Speaker 1: Abbot had a plan before he passed away. The opponent
Speaker 1: attorneys they wanted more time, and then after he passed away,
Speaker 1: then they wanted to immediately started with trial and everything.
Speaker 1: And we were there every day. But one of the
Speaker 1: excuses after Mr Abbett had passed they said the reason
Speaker 1: they didn't call us understanding after they had sentenced Julius
Speaker 1: because they didn't know we were there. It was just
Speaker 1: a mockery. I was devastated. I was devastated when I
Speaker 1: heard the word we rest. I think I was a
Speaker 1: little older than thirteen, and I didn't understand how you
Speaker 1: couldn't put people understand to help my brother's defense. There
Speaker 1: was no defense there. And that, I mean that, just
Speaker 1: that that pisces me out. This episode is underwritten by
Speaker 1: Paul Weiss, Rifkin, Horton and Garrison. A leading international offer,
Speaker 1: Paul Weiss has long had an unwavering commitment to provide
Speaker 1: an impact ful pro bono legal assistance to the most
Speaker 1: vulnerable members of our society and in support of the
Speaker 1: public interest, including extensive work in the criminal justice area.
Speaker 1: It infuriates me to hear when cases when there's ineffective counsel.
Speaker 1: It just makes me so mad, especially if it's an
Speaker 1: appointed attorney, that you think that if you don't have
Speaker 1: the money to afford an attorney and so you're getting
Speaker 1: a pointed one, that they're going to be ineffective and
Speaker 1: not help but actually hurt your case so much. I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't know how I can live with myself if
Speaker 1: I was an attorney like that. But I think especially
Speaker 1: with Julius case. He just didn't get a fair trial.
Speaker 1: Bottom line, as we've heard at Julius's trial, the defense
Speaker 1: didn't even give the jury much information to work with.
Speaker 1: But believe it or not, it gets even worse. During
Speaker 1: the trial in the jury room, one of the jurors
Speaker 1: said out loud, why are we wasting our time here?
Speaker 1: We ought to just take that end out back and
Speaker 1: bury him outside the jail. And one of the jurors
Speaker 1: approached a bailiff told him what she heard and asked
Speaker 1: to talk to the judge on the record. The judge
Speaker 1: sort of dismissed it as well. He could have been
Speaker 1: talking about Osama bin Laden. We don't know who the
Speaker 1: juror was talking about. Take the N word out of
Speaker 1: the equation. You still have a juror who made up
Speaker 1: his mind and was going to convict Julius and sentence
Speaker 1: him to death. Throw the N word in there, and
Speaker 1: the racism is just oozing from this case. We also
Speaker 1: know that between five and two thousand and twelve, there
Speaker 1: was a study conducted in Oklahoma on race and the
Speaker 1: death penalty. The authors concluded that an African American male
Speaker 1: who is convicted of killing a white male is three
Speaker 1: times more likely to get the death penalty in Oklahoma.
Speaker 1: So at trial, yet racism incentivized lying witnesses and no
Speaker 1: defense whatsoever. So Dale, what you took on this case,
Speaker 1: You guys had your work cut out for you, to
Speaker 1: say the least. But there was a new law in
Speaker 1: place in Oklahoma that allowed you to do DNA testing
Speaker 1: and post conviction, so you tested the red bandanna right
Speaker 1: it was sitting in in evidence for almost twenty years.
Speaker 1: Dr Shapiro used to be with the Department of Forensic
Speaker 1: Biology at the Medical Examiner's Office in New York City,
Speaker 1: reviewed the d n A report that was produced by
Speaker 1: Bodhi Cellmark and came to some conclusions. So one of
Speaker 1: the things that Megan Toby, the victim's sister, testified to
Speaker 1: was that the shooter yelled something at her is she
Speaker 1: was running away, And we identified a stain on the bandanna,
Speaker 1: and we wanted to check if that stain was saliva,
Speaker 1: and it came back negative is to saliva. So we
Speaker 1: don't even know if that bandanna was the same bandanna
Speaker 1: that the assailant war because there's not the saliva stain
Speaker 1: on it that should be there. Because the assailant yelled,
Speaker 1: don't forget this was July and Oklahoma, right, So you
Speaker 1: do have to suspend a lot of this belief to
Speaker 1: come up with the conclusion that someone Julius or any
Speaker 1: one is going to be in an extremely high pressure
Speaker 1: situation on a very hot day and not sweat or
Speaker 1: breathe into the bandanna that they're supposedly wearing on their face.
Speaker 1: We don't know. We'll never know whether the gun was
Speaker 1: wrapped in the bandanna, or whether the gun was taken
Speaker 1: and placed in the bandanna by the authorities when they
Speaker 1: were taking it out. One would hope they would put
Speaker 1: it in an evidence bag instead. But the state made
Speaker 1: a big deal about the fact that there were several
Speaker 1: different people's DNA on this bandanna, and that one of
Speaker 1: the people seems to be somewhat consistent with Julius. Can
Speaker 1: you elaborate on what that really means, because some people
Speaker 1: would look at that and go, oh, wait a minute,
Speaker 1: and you know, I guess I got the right guy
Speaker 1: after all. Right, case closed. But the testing indicates that
Speaker 1: the d n A was degraded and was defined as
Speaker 1: trace DNA, which suggests that to the d NA could
Speaker 1: have been transferred to the item. So the bandanna is
Speaker 1: found in Julius's house, it's handled by the police, it's
Speaker 1: in his bedroom. It's very possible that any DNA on
Speaker 1: there that could be consistent with Julius's could come about
Speaker 1: as a result of the transfer of the d n A.
Speaker 1: So here's what we're faced with. It seems to me,
Speaker 1: and correct me if I'm wrong on any of these fronts.
Speaker 1: Julius didn't match the eyewitness description. His hair was short
Speaker 1: and could never have stuck out from a stocking cap,
Speaker 1: but Chris Jordan's absolutely could have. Chris Jordan's gave a
Speaker 1: confession that was riddled with inconsistencies and false as he
Speaker 1: changed his story numerous times. Chris also admitted to planting
Speaker 1: the gun exactly where the police founded in Julius's house
Speaker 1: on more than one occasion. There's no salivary DNA on
Speaker 1: the bandanna and evidence, and it doesn't seem to be
Speaker 1: the one that was one across the shooters or anyone's
Speaker 1: face anyway, And I'm leaving out other exculpatory stuff. Forget
Speaker 1: that incompetent defense, Forget the racial bias, forget the jury,
Speaker 1: forget everything Those facts alone would seem to be enough
Speaker 1: to unravel this, and then you add to it that
Speaker 1: the only thing connecting to it are the words of
Speaker 1: two highly incentivized witnesses, both of whom happened to be
Speaker 1: career criminals, who were maybe an offer they could almost
Speaker 1: get refused. I mean they were given it, an offer
Speaker 1: that they would be able to avoid lengthy prison sentences
Speaker 1: of their own in exchange for their testimony against Julius.
Speaker 1: Does that pretty much sum it up? That's it? And
Speaker 1: one would think that, you know, why is Julius even
Speaker 1: in prison, let alone on death row? But that's not
Speaker 1: how it turned out. This leads to my next question, Kim,
Speaker 1: his only contact to the outside world is through letters.
Speaker 1: Have you gotten letters directly from him or have you
Speaker 1: corresponded with him in any way? I have, yes, you know,
Speaker 1: just hearing what he has to say. And I mean,
Speaker 1: what I can't understand, but I'm so grateful for is
Speaker 1: someone in Julius's situation who could just be so angry
Speaker 1: at the world. And I don't I don't know how
Speaker 1: I would act if I was in his situation, But
Speaker 1: to see the grace that he has and to see
Speaker 1: how he's fighting through this and won't give up. It
Speaker 1: inspires me so I want to fight like I We
Speaker 1: need him to get out. I mean, just to even
Speaker 1: know that because he was an athlete, to see a
Speaker 1: lot of athletes support him and write letters on his
Speaker 1: behalf now to send to the governor has been so
Speaker 1: amazing to see. You know, when he was playing ball,
Speaker 1: Blake Griffin's dad was his coach and its completely in
Speaker 1: support Julius and Blake Griffin wrote an amazing, heartfelt letter
Speaker 1: for the governor to see in support of Julius's release.
Speaker 1: Russell Westbrook. There's been some amazing people that really want
Speaker 1: to see him released as well, people that grew up there,
Speaker 1: people that played their Carmelo Anthony who played in Oklahoma
Speaker 1: for a little while. His wife is my best friend.
Speaker 1: You know. I sent him all the facts and he
Speaker 1: wrote a letter as well. It's amazing to see the
Speaker 1: support that has come together. And I hope that everyone
Speaker 1: really pays attention before it's too late, because we will
Speaker 1: not go out easy on this one. And we know
Speaker 1: that the governor of Oklahoma is a guy who cares
Speaker 1: about criminal justice reform. He's done some positive things, for sure.
Speaker 1: It would be hard to imagine that he and the
Speaker 1: members of the Parole Board wouldn't be moved to take
Speaker 1: action here between the outcry and the public, the support
Speaker 1: of prominent people, faith leaders and business leaders, so many
Speaker 1: different people, and the facts of the case cry out
Speaker 1: for justice. Yeah. Absolutely, I mean, you know, everyone always
Speaker 1: asked me like, well, what can we do? And I
Speaker 1: think the most important thing to do is call the
Speaker 1: Governor's office and elected officials that can really make a
Speaker 1: difference and just be really loud, and you should go
Speaker 1: to Justice for Julius Jones dot com. First of all,
Speaker 1: look into his case. Everything is on this website, from
Speaker 1: the documentary The Last Offense with Viola Davis to where
Speaker 1: you can sign the petition in favor of Julius, and
Speaker 1: you can also subscribe to stay up to date on
Speaker 1: what's going on, and it even gives you a link
Speaker 1: to email the Parole Board. I do believe that the
Speaker 1: Parole Board is like in favor of reform. I believe
Speaker 1: everyone is very compassionate from what I've heard. So I
Speaker 1: just urge everyone please sign the petition for Julia Jones
Speaker 1: if you're moved by his story. I've done it. I
Speaker 1: believe in him so much, I believe in his innocence.
Speaker 1: Justice for Julius Jones dot Com. When we initially released
Speaker 1: this episode, as you heard mentioned several times throughout, there
Speaker 1: were two witnesses who had been in jail with Chris
Speaker 1: Jordan's and they are Manuel Little John and Christopher Barry.
Speaker 1: Now since then there's been a third man. Now, mind you,
Speaker 1: only the state can incentivize a witness. Everybody knows this right.
Speaker 1: It's totally illegal for anyone but the state to bribe
Speaker 1: a witness. So these men have nothing to gain by
Speaker 1: coming forward. In fact, they have a lot to lose.
Speaker 1: Here's what Manuel Little John said in his two thousand
Speaker 1: and four sworn Affid David. Quote Jordan's stated that he
Speaker 1: felt guilty because he was going to implicate his quote
Speaker 1: off and Julius Jones in a murder case to avoid
Speaker 1: getting the death penalty for himself. That's end quote and
Speaker 1: Little John's Affid David. After admitting to hiding the gun
Speaker 1: in the jones Is home, Jordan's stated to Little John,
Speaker 1: quote Julius didn't do it, and quote Julius wasn't there. Then.
Speaker 1: Christopher Barry, in his two thousand and four sworn affid
Speaker 1: David referring to what Chris Jordan had told him, quote,
Speaker 1: he was the actual person who shot the victim in
Speaker 1: his case. Mr Jordan's also said, I'm still quoting that
Speaker 1: because he was the first person to talk to police,
Speaker 1: he was getting a deal and would not get the
Speaker 1: death penalty. End quote. And finally, in March of one,
Speaker 1: we have a sword affidavit from Roderick Wesley and he
Speaker 1: says the following on video about his interaction with Chris Jordan's.
Speaker 1: Me and uh Jo ahead and worked together. One day,
Speaker 1: We're sitting there and I don't telling him about my
Speaker 1: sage wish. He pretty much told me about he is.
Speaker 1: I guess you say he was being sort of remorseful,
Speaker 1: but it was one of the cases where I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: but I'm not gonna jump out there and just you know,
Speaker 1: throw myself to the wolves like that. And so when
Speaker 1: he ended up breaking it down, it was pretty much like,
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, I committed the end that somebody else
Speaker 1: is getting accused, though you know, he admitted that he won,
Speaker 1: you know, did killer and it wasn't this guy. You know,
Speaker 1: it was a big decision is do I jump out there? What?
Speaker 1: But I looked at it is. If it was my situation,
Speaker 1: I would want with somebody who has information to go
Speaker 1: ahead and do it. Because this is a man life online.
Speaker 1: I mean, what can I possibly add to further prove
Speaker 1: what we've been all saying all along, Julius Jones is
Speaker 1: an innocent man on death row in Oklahoma. Since almost
Speaker 1: seven million people have signed a petition on Julius's behalf bankers,
Speaker 1: boxes of signatures were just livered to the Oklahoma Board
Speaker 1: of Partons in Parole begging for justice in this case.
Speaker 1: And now since this latest statement from Roderick Wesley, Julius
Speaker 1: has been granted a hearing. It's a stage to commutation
Speaker 1: hearing in front of the Oklahoma Board of Partons in
Speaker 1: Parole that is happening on September one. But that doesn't
Speaker 1: mean it's time to rest or relax. Now is the
Speaker 1: time to ramp up the pressure. If you'd like to
Speaker 1: add your name to that petition, it's going to be
Speaker 1: linked in the bio. Please help us keep the pressure on.
Speaker 1: And with that we're going to go to closing arguments, where,
Speaker 1: of course, first of all, I think all of you,
Speaker 1: and now we're going to hear from Dale, Antoinette, and
Speaker 1: of course Julius mother Madeleine. But let's kick it off
Speaker 1: with you first. Kim Oh, thank you for having me
Speaker 1: on here, and thank you for everything that you do
Speaker 1: and for showing me the way. Seriously, I look up
Speaker 1: to you so much, and I'm so grateful to you
Speaker 1: for sharing so many cases with me and that we're
Speaker 1: able to hopefully open up people's minds and hearts that
Speaker 1: might have been a little bit closed off when it
Speaker 1: comes to reform or might not understood how they could help,
Speaker 1: and then we're giving them a platform where they can
Speaker 1: help out and be a part of the conversation and
Speaker 1: help fight for people that really really deserve it. So
Speaker 1: thank you Dale, You've done a fantastic job and I
Speaker 1: appreciate you making the time. I know it's going to
Speaker 1: make a difference. Well, thank you, Jason. We have a
Speaker 1: commutation application pending before the Oklahoma Pardon in Parole Board.
Speaker 1: Julius is thankful for all the support, the prayers, the
Speaker 1: letters that he has received that is giving him strength.
Speaker 1: This case got the attention it deserved when Viola Davis
Speaker 1: and Julius Tennon produced the last defense that put light
Speaker 1: on this injustice and wrongful conviction. What's troubling to me,
Speaker 1: and we should all be concerned about this, is that
Speaker 1: without the last defense, no one would be interested in
Speaker 1: this case, Julius would have been just another African American
Speaker 1: man in prison saying he was innocent, one of the
Speaker 1: four percent, and no one would care. There are thousands
Speaker 1: of julius is behind bars today and people should care.
Speaker 1: And we know you care, Jason, and we appreciate that
Speaker 1: the struggle isn't over. Thank you very much. Why don't
Speaker 1: we save mom for last, because you know she's mom,
Speaker 1: So antoinete over to you. So first I would say, then,
Speaker 1: my brother, Julius, there is Jones. He did not kill
Speaker 1: Paul Hall. My brother is a human being. He is
Speaker 1: not a number. When we consider people human beings and
Speaker 1: not just numbers, and we really take into account all
Speaker 1: the facts. I'm just asking them to correct it's wrong.
Speaker 1: I'm asking you to look at all of the key
Speaker 1: points in this case. I'm asking you to understand. Then,
Speaker 1: my brother never got a fair defense. He never got
Speaker 1: a proper defense, He never got a juror of his peers,
Speaker 1: he never got a chance to voice what happened to him.
Speaker 1: From his side, and I'm just asking you as a
Speaker 1: human being to understand and take my brother in consideration
Speaker 1: as a human being and not a number. He is
Speaker 1: not a person that would take a life. He is
Speaker 1: a person that will protect the life. He is a
Speaker 1: person that cares about everybody's well being. To this day,
Speaker 1: he cares. He cares more about how everybody else is
Speaker 1: doing then how he's doing inside. That's who my brother is.
Speaker 1: He's a person that cares. He's a loyal person. He
Speaker 1: is a person that loves life. I never gave up
Speaker 1: and I'm still not gonna give We shall not give up.
Speaker 1: We shall not rest. Even though the defense rest for him,
Speaker 1: we shall not rest. Thank you, thank you, And now
Speaker 1: for the final words, Madeline. First of all, Julius is
Speaker 1: a good person. He's very kind, he's loving, compassion, and
Speaker 1: a lot of times he will hurt himself to keep
Speaker 1: from hurting someone else. And that's the reason he's in predicament.
Speaker 1: He's in now. And I just want to say to
Speaker 1: the borod board that one size does not fit all
Speaker 1: and that I would like for him to take careful
Speaker 1: consideration concerning Julius and to look at what he will
Speaker 1: be able to contribute to society if they spare his life.
Speaker 1: We just need to try to get things right because
Speaker 1: when justice is covered up, it stays covered for so long,
Speaker 1: but it'll either burn through or it will grow. And
Speaker 1: right now I feel like that justice is growing because uh,
Speaker 1: it wants to be heard, and it wants to be
Speaker 1: fulfilled what it's really meant to be just for all,
Speaker 1: not just for some of us. And you know, freedom
Speaker 1: is worth more than money. My biggest joy is to
Speaker 1: help my son home and to be about the things
Speaker 1: that he's dreamed and long to want to do. And
Speaker 1: I thank God for this opportunity today to be able
Speaker 1: to express so many things that I've helped in today.
Speaker 1: I really thank God for you, Jason. I thank God
Speaker 1: for people like you. Thank you for listening to Wrong
Speaker 1: for Conviction with Jason Flamer. Please support your local innocence
Speaker 1: projects and go to the link in our bio to
Speaker 1: see how you can help. I'd like to thank our
Speaker 1: production team Connor Hall, Jeff Clyburne, and Kevin Warness. The
Speaker 1: music on the show, as always, is by three time
Speaker 1: OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us
Speaker 1: on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction.
Speaker 1: Podcast Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam is a production of
Speaker 1: Lava for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number
Speaker 1: one