1 00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:03,080 Speaker 1: Since our initial release of Julius Jones's story, there have 2 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:06,120 Speaker 1: been some exciting new developments. This is a re release 3 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: of that story with brand new content. But before we 4 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:11,800 Speaker 1: reveal the newly discovered evidence and what it means for 5 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:15,360 Speaker 1: Julius Jones's wrongful conviction, we need to address the issue 6 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:18,360 Speaker 1: that's working its way through Federal District Court in Oklahoma 7 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 1: right now. What I'm referring to, of course, is the 8 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:23,959 Speaker 1: case that has been to the US Supreme Court that 9 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 1: we discussed at length in our coverage of its leading plaintiff, 10 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 1: Richard Glossop. If you would like a fuller understanding of 11 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 1: why there has been a moratorium on executions at Oklahoma 12 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: since twenty fifteen, we'll have Richard's story linked in this 13 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:42,199 Speaker 1: episode's bio. However, that case obviously directly affects everyone on 14 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:46,559 Speaker 1: death row in Oklahoma, including Julius Jones. What's an issue 15 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:50,040 Speaker 1: is that both pharma companies and foreign governments are part 16 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:53,640 Speaker 1: of a concerted effort to starve America and about nine 17 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:57,480 Speaker 1: other countries that still use the death penalty of the 18 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 1: drugs that are used in lethal injections. Shortage of approved 19 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:04,440 Speaker 1: lethal injection drugs has led Oklahoma and other states to 20 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:08,640 Speaker 1: move forward with executions using substitute drugs for the approved 21 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:12,039 Speaker 1: ones in their state's protocol, a practice that has caused 22 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 1: many botched executions now. Since twenty fifteen, death row inmates 23 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:20,200 Speaker 1: have been fighting Oklahoma in court over the Eighth Amendment 24 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:24,120 Speaker 1: issue of whether these substitute drugs and the subsequent botched 25 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:28,640 Speaker 1: executions they cause constitute cruel and unusual punishment. In the 26 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:32,600 Speaker 1: case of Clayton Lockett, who writhed on the execution guaranty 27 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 1: for forty three full minutes, I'm going to go with yes, 28 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 1: it sure does. On August eleventh, twenty twenty one, a 29 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 1: federal judge, Stephen Friat in Oklahoma issued an opinion and 30 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 1: said he wants to have a trial on whether the 31 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: drugs Oklahoma plans to use in executions will cause a 32 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 1: constitutionally unacceptable risk of pain. That trial will take place 33 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:57,840 Speaker 1: in early twenty twenty two. This drug issue is just 34 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 1: more proof that we have no business and no right 35 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:06,120 Speaker 1: to continue executing people, just in case the innocence of 36 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:12,840 Speaker 1: men like Julius Jones wasn't already enough. On July twenty eighth, 37 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety nine, Paul Howell was shot twice at a 38 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:19,799 Speaker 1: driveway to Edmond, Oklahoma, in a robbery for his GMC suburban. 39 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:23,560 Speaker 1: According to his sister, the shooter was an African American 40 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:26,120 Speaker 1: male wearing a red band down across his face and 41 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 1: a stocking cap with up to an inch of hair 42 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 1: sticking out from the bottom. According to numerous non incentivized 43 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:36,639 Speaker 1: sworn Affi Davids, the co defendant in this case, Chris Jordan, 44 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 1: has since bragged about being the shooter and framing his 45 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:44,359 Speaker 1: former friend Julius Jones on the night of the shooting. 46 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:48,359 Speaker 1: Julius was at home with his family. The evening following 47 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 1: the murder, Chris Jordan spent the night at the Joneses, 48 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 1: which was when he said he hit the gun in 49 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 1: a second story call space. Confidential informants in the stolen 50 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 1: car trade, including a long time so to Chris Jordan 51 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:06,800 Speaker 1: Ladell King, deflective investigators toward Chris Jordan and Julius. Chris 52 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 1: eventually gave seven statements riddled with inconsistencies, blaming Julius Jones 53 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:16,800 Speaker 1: for the murder. On July thirtieth, police searched at Jones's 54 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:20,240 Speaker 1: home and found the gun exactly what Chris Jordan is 55 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:24,360 Speaker 1: believed to have hidden it. With nothing presented to defend 56 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 1: against the planted evidence and the incentivized testimony of Ladel 57 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 1: King and Chris Jordan, Julius was sent to Oklahoma's death row. 58 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 1: On this episode, we team up with one of Julius's 59 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 1: fiercest advocates, Kim Kardashian, as we speak with his attorney, 60 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 1: Dale Bash and his mother and sister, Madeline and Antoineae Jones. 61 00:03:45,320 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 1: This is Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flopper Today we're here 62 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 1: to talk about Julius Jones, who has been on death 63 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: row in Oklahoma for over twenty years for crime eden't commit. 64 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 1: And I'd like to welcome a very special guest. You'll 65 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 1: recognize her name and you'll recognize her from having been 66 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:19,279 Speaker 1: on this podcast before. Kim Kardashian West, Welcome back to 67 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flohm. 68 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 2: Hi, thank you for having me again. 69 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:26,360 Speaker 1: I can't overstate the importance of you being here today 70 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:29,479 Speaker 1: with us, Kim, because if we don't take every possible 71 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 1: action that we can, and I mean the audience too, 72 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 1: Julius will be executed in Oklahoma as early as this 73 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:38,600 Speaker 1: fall for crime we know he didn't commit Kim, can 74 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:40,839 Speaker 1: you tell us when you first heard about this case. 75 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, I first started to receive letters. They were from 76 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 2: a woman named Terry McCarthy, probably thirty letters from her, 77 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:55,919 Speaker 2: and she was kind of reiterating the same information about 78 00:04:56,040 --> 00:05:01,799 Speaker 2: Julius and mentioned the documentary with Iola Davis. So I thought, 79 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 2: I have to look into this. And I say this 80 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:08,839 Speaker 2: all the time because we have such an amazing group 81 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 2: of people, between you and Scott Budnick, my attorneys and everyone. 82 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:18,599 Speaker 2: When all of the big players really feel the same 83 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:22,159 Speaker 2: way about a case, I know that we have to 84 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 2: be loud, and I feel in my soul that we 85 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:29,800 Speaker 2: are early enough because an execution date for Julius hasn't 86 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:33,359 Speaker 2: been set yet that I feel like now is the 87 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:35,880 Speaker 2: time where we all just have to come together and 88 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 2: really make a difference in his life. 89 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 1: What about this particular case, about his case makes you 90 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 1: so passionate and what sticks out to you the most 91 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:46,360 Speaker 1: about Julius's case. 92 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:51,760 Speaker 2: There's a few things. Being a young honor role student athlete, 93 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:56,600 Speaker 2: you have your whole life ahead of you. Everyone around 94 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:00,440 Speaker 2: always says what an amazing person he is that grew 95 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 2: up with him, His coaches and then to see getting 96 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:09,560 Speaker 2: caught up with the wrong group of people and getting 97 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:13,159 Speaker 2: set up. The way he was just really rubbed me 98 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 2: the wrong way. That someone's life, a young kid's life, 99 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:21,159 Speaker 2: was just taken away. It always goes back to me 100 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 2: thinking about what if that was my son? What would 101 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 2: I do if my son got set up like this? 102 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:31,760 Speaker 2: So we got to fight for this guy, We got 103 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:33,919 Speaker 2: to help him get his life back. 104 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 1: The next voice you hear is going to be the 105 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:41,760 Speaker 1: voice of Dale Bash, an assistant federal public defender who 106 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:47,479 Speaker 1: is definitely doing his part to help to unravel this nightmare. 107 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 1: When did you get involved with it? 108 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:55,479 Speaker 3: In twenty and sixteen, our office was appointed to represent 109 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:57,920 Speaker 3: Julius in clemency proceedings. 110 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 1: And this really is a terrible I mean, you have 111 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 1: Paul Howell, a forty five year old George deacon and 112 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:07,919 Speaker 1: business owner, family guy, returning to his parents' home in 113 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 1: the Oklahoma City suburb of Edmund from a school supply 114 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 1: shopping trip with his seven and nine year old daughters 115 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 1: and his sister, Megan Toby in the car. Now, as 116 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 1: he was getting out of the nineteen ninety seven GMC suburban, 117 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 1: a black man and a stocking cap with about an 118 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 1: inch of hair sticking out from the bottom and a 119 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 1: red bandana tied around his face. Stepped up to Paul 120 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 1: and demanded the suburban and fired his gun twice, mortally 121 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 1: wounding Paul. As his daughters and sister ran screaming to 122 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 1: the house for cover, the gunman sped away in the suburban. 123 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 1: And from what we know now, and remember this is 124 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 1: an addition to what was known when we first released 125 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 1: this episode, according to three men and counting, not just 126 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:54,120 Speaker 1: the original two. These are three men who all knew 127 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 1: Chris Jordan in prison and or in jail. And none 128 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:00,559 Speaker 1: of these men have been incentivized in any way, okay, 129 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 1: and they've all sworn to have been told by Chris 130 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 1: Jordan directly that Chris did this shooting and that his 131 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 1: former friend Julius Jones was not involved. I mean, that's 132 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 1: powerful stuff right there. Okay. But at the time of 133 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 1: this investigation, the cops went looking for the usual suspects 134 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 1: in the stolen car trade. First, they went to a 135 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:24,920 Speaker 1: guy named Kermit Lottie. He led them to laddel King, 136 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 1: who was an associate of Chris Jordan, who then led 137 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 1: them to Jordan and eventually Julius Jones, But the cops 138 00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:36,719 Speaker 1: caught Chris Jordan first, Right, So can you walk us 139 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 1: through some of the things that Chris Jordan told them? 140 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:44,960 Speaker 3: Sure. On July twenty eighth, nineteen ninety nine. According to 141 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 3: Chris Jordan, who is a co defendant in this case, 142 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 3: he and Julius were driving around looking for a suburban 143 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:58,880 Speaker 3: to jack. They spotted a car, followed it into a neighborhood, 144 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:03,200 Speaker 3: and according to to Chris Jordan, Julius jumped out of 145 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 3: the car when the car pulled into the driveway and 146 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 3: shot Paul Howell. When Chris Jordan was taken into custody, 147 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:14,960 Speaker 3: that's what he told the police, and they immediately focused 148 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 3: on Julius tunnel vision set in. But what we now 149 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:24,760 Speaker 3: know is Chris made seven different statements to the police, 150 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:30,720 Speaker 3: and those statements were inconsistent, and at one point the 151 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 3: police say, what you're telling us, it's not adding up. 152 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 3: We don't have this backwards, do we. So the police 153 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 3: knew that there were problems with what Chris was telling them, 154 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:46,559 Speaker 3: but the police continued to focus on Julius. 155 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:50,080 Speaker 1: And something that really struck me when reading about this 156 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 1: case is that, according to the non incentivized witnesses who 157 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 1: knew Chris Jordan in jail, prison or both, as well 158 00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 1: as to statements that Jordan himself if later made to 159 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:04,560 Speaker 1: the police. Chris Jordan on the night after the shooting, 160 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:07,840 Speaker 1: but before he was arrested and gave his initial statement, 161 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 1: slept at the Joneses home. Chris left to Jones' home, 162 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:15,680 Speaker 1: which is where he said he stashed the murder weapon. 163 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:20,319 Speaker 1: So on its face, the gun being found at the 164 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:24,800 Speaker 1: Joneses looks damning for Julius at that time, but now 165 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 1: in hindsight, it just further points in the direction of 166 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 1: Chris Jordan's culpability. 167 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:35,560 Speaker 3: Well, we know that when Chris was interviewed by the police, 168 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 3: he was asked, so you hid the murder weapon, and 169 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 3: he responded yeah. Chris also told one of the men 170 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:47,480 Speaker 3: that he spoke to while in custody in the county 171 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:50,839 Speaker 3: jail that he wrapped the gun used to commit the 172 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:55,719 Speaker 3: murder and hid it in Julius's parent's house. We understand 173 00:10:56,000 --> 00:11:01,160 Speaker 3: that Chris was sitting in a police car outside of 174 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:06,200 Speaker 3: Julius's house after the police stormed the home and then 175 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:11,720 Speaker 3: went looking for the gun and immediately went to where 176 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:15,199 Speaker 3: we think Chris told them the gun would be located. 177 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:20,960 Speaker 3: We also know that there were other people involved, namely Kermit, 178 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 3: Lotti and ladel King, that had a lot to gain 179 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 3: by pointing in Julius's direction and away from themselves. 180 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 1: Can you tell us about Kermit and Laddell. 181 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:35,960 Speaker 3: Kermit Lottie was a man who ran a chop shop 182 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:39,960 Speaker 3: on the south side of Oklahoma City and it was 183 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:44,120 Speaker 3: a well known establishment in the trade of stealing cars. 184 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 3: Laddel King was a close confidant of Kermit's and was 185 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:54,200 Speaker 3: known for his involvement in that trade. Ladel King was 186 00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:59,720 Speaker 3: also a confidential informant and in exchange for providing information 187 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:03,079 Speaker 3: to the police, he would be allowed to carry on 188 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 3: with some of his illegal activities. At the time of 189 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 3: Julius's trial, Liddell King was facing bogus check charges and 190 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:17,200 Speaker 3: as an habitual offender, he was looking to twenty years, 191 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 3: and in exchange for his testimony, he got ten years probation. 192 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:25,720 Speaker 3: Liddell was one of the guys that pointed the finger 193 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:27,000 Speaker 3: at Julius. 194 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:31,880 Speaker 1: So this paints a pretty strong picture of a sort 195 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 1: of a unit. 196 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 3: Right. 197 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 1: You had Chris Jordan, who was a troubled kid. You 198 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:42,680 Speaker 1: have these two other known criminals, particularly ensconced in the 199 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:45,679 Speaker 1: stolen car business, and then you have a car that 200 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 1: gets stolen in a violent robbery tragic death. But we 201 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:54,000 Speaker 1: know a number of things that would make anyone go wait. 202 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:56,800 Speaker 1: I mean, for instance, we know that the number of 203 00:12:56,840 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 1: shellcasing stunted the scene was something that was known and 204 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:02,720 Speaker 1: volunteer seared by Chris and his interrogation before the police 205 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:05,680 Speaker 1: even asked or suggested it. We know that the witnesses 206 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:11,400 Speaker 1: were incentivized. We know that the description matches someone very 207 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:14,079 Speaker 1: much like Chris Jordan, who doesn't look like Julius. 208 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:18,720 Speaker 3: Megan Toby, Mister Howell's sister was in the car with 209 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:22,200 Speaker 3: him when he pulled into the driveway, and she testified 210 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:26,040 Speaker 3: that she saw the person who shot her brother, and 211 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:31,440 Speaker 3: she described him as African American, wearing a red bandana 212 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:36,200 Speaker 3: across his face, wearing a black stocking cap, and half 213 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 3: an inch of hair hanging out from under the cap. 214 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 3: What's critical about that is Julius wore his hair close crop, 215 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:48,959 Speaker 3: very short. Chris Jordan, on the other hand, wore his 216 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 3: hair in braids. And how do we know that Julius's 217 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:58,199 Speaker 3: hair was short? Ten days prior to mister Howell's murder, 218 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:01,720 Speaker 3: Julius got picked up on traffic stop and had a 219 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:06,400 Speaker 3: mug shot taken, so there's an official government photo of 220 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 3: Julius with short hair, and that photograph was never shown 221 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:16,079 Speaker 3: to the jury at trial. We also know that Julius 222 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 3: was at home with his family at the time mister 223 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 3: Howell was shot and killed, and later that evening, Chris 224 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:30,160 Speaker 3: and Julius were supposed to drive down to Norman, Oklahoma, 225 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 3: which is about twenty minutes south of Oklahoma City. Julius 226 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:38,240 Speaker 3: was at home getting a little agitated because Chris said 227 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:41,280 Speaker 3: he would be there early in the evening and Kristen 228 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 3: would show up until close to midnight. 229 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:48,080 Speaker 1: We also have with us Julius's sister Antoinette and his 230 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 1: mother Madeline. Now Here you have a son who is 231 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 1: excelling in so many ways, a co captain of three 232 00:14:55,600 --> 00:15:01,560 Speaker 1: different sports teams in high school, academic scholarship, Oklahoma University, 233 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:05,520 Speaker 1: great looking young man with his whole life laid out 234 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 1: in front of him, and then everything takes a terrible, 235 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 1: terrible turn. 236 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 4: It's been a twenty plus year shock, and I really 237 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 4: can't often find the words to explain what it's been 238 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 4: like we just got blindsided. 239 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 1: It sure seems like you went from the American dream 240 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 1: to the American nightmare. And let's go to that faithful night. 241 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:35,120 Speaker 1: July twenty eighth, nineteen ninety nine. Can you tell us 242 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 1: what was happening that night and why and how you 243 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:40,080 Speaker 1: know that Julius could not possibly have been there. 244 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 4: That was a kind of a busy day for us. 245 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:50,440 Speaker 4: I was trying to do Antoinette's hair, I was fixing spaghetti, 246 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 4: but Julius was there all day long. They played monopoly. 247 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 5: There were a few of us playing monopoly. Julius was 248 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:03,320 Speaker 5: there playing Monopoly, And for my oldest brother, Antonio and 249 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:06,240 Speaker 5: another young man that was over there, they got mad 250 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 5: at me because I gave Guias all my money and property. 251 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 5: I had to do that because I had to get 252 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 5: my hair done. So it's specific things like that, like 253 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:17,680 Speaker 5: I know that it was around Jesus' birthday. Jessus friend 254 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:20,560 Speaker 5: had a big chocolate chip cookie that she gave to 255 00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 5: him for his birthday. Tony kept going in and out 256 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 5: of the refrigerator to take pieces of the cookie. And 257 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:29,280 Speaker 5: later on that day, my brother Antonio had to go 258 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:32,120 Speaker 5: to work. My mother went to go take him to work. 259 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 5: Julius looks in the refrigerator and he's like, oh my goodness. 260 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:37,360 Speaker 5: He was like, who ate my cooking? And I kid 261 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 5: you not. He waited at the back door in the kitchen, 262 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:42,120 Speaker 5: pacing back and forth, waiting for Mom to come home, 263 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 5: so he could tell that somebody ate his cookie. So 264 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 5: I kind of was like, well, you know, I was like, Tony, 265 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 5: h your cookie. And so I'll never forget that day. 266 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:53,640 Speaker 1: So it doesn't seem like someone who just murdered somebody 267 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 1: would be particularly concerned over how much of a cookie 268 00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 1: was left in the refrigerator or not. I mean, that's 269 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:03,200 Speaker 1: just one of many, many things, you know. So July 270 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:06,000 Speaker 1: twenty eighth, he's home with you. It sounds like sort 271 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 1: of a typical family night. But then things changed dramatically 272 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:13,280 Speaker 1: in the next thirty six hours. Right the twenty ninth, 273 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:16,840 Speaker 1: Chris is at your home, right, He spent the night 274 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 1: that night, which is when he had the opportunity to 275 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:22,960 Speaker 1: plant the gun. Do you recall Chris being at your 276 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 1: house that night? 277 00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:29,680 Speaker 4: Thursday was trash day and Jus usually takes a trash 278 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:33,159 Speaker 4: out and sometimes we sit and talk on the walkway, 279 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:36,800 Speaker 4: but Chris was kind of like a shadow was there? 280 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:38,960 Speaker 1: Answer that were you there that night? Do you remember 281 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:40,119 Speaker 1: if Chris was at the house. 282 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 5: I know Chris was there because I heard him come 283 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:46,440 Speaker 5: upstairs and go into the room that was Julius's. 284 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:49,480 Speaker 1: The very next day, the police would surround the Jones' house. 285 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:52,480 Speaker 1: Julius family was purp walked out of their own home, 286 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 1: and Chris Jordan would be in a police car out 287 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 1: front to tell them exactly where the murder weapon was hidden. 288 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:02,440 Speaker 1: Julius was appointed attorney mister Barry Albert, who was known 289 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:05,879 Speaker 1: for his skill and unorthodox but effective courtroom style. But 290 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:10,720 Speaker 1: mister Albert he died shortly before the trial, leaving his 291 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 1: new public defenders woefully unprepared, so much so that they 292 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:18,120 Speaker 1: didn't put on any defense whatsoever. 293 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:23,040 Speaker 3: When it came time for Julius to present his case, 294 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 3: the lawyers simply stood up and said the defense rests. 295 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:33,160 Speaker 3: The lawyers did not put on testimony from the family 296 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:37,399 Speaker 3: who would have presented an alibi. The lawyers did not 297 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 3: investigate and present evidence from two people who were in 298 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:47,160 Speaker 3: jail who didn't know each other and independently came forward 299 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:51,200 Speaker 3: and said that Chris Jordan told them that he said 300 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:54,280 Speaker 3: Julius up. He told one of the men that he 301 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:58,720 Speaker 3: planted the weapon in Julius's house, and he told both 302 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 3: of the men that he would be getting out of 303 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:05,199 Speaker 3: prison after serving a fifteen year sentence in exchange for 304 00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:11,879 Speaker 3: his testimony against Julius. The inconsistent statements that Chris made 305 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:17,680 Speaker 3: to the police during his interrogation were never explored by 306 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:21,640 Speaker 3: the defense when they had an opportunity to cross examine Chris. 307 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:27,400 Speaker 1: It's an inexplicable lapse. In fact, it's totally understandable why 308 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:29,240 Speaker 1: the jury would have voted to convict. They didn't have 309 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:31,879 Speaker 1: any information to work with except what the state was saying. 310 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:36,919 Speaker 1: What was it like seeing your baby going through this trial. 311 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:40,600 Speaker 4: Well, at the beginning, I was very confident because the 312 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:45,720 Speaker 4: attorney that we had, mister Abbott, he was very thorough 313 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:47,439 Speaker 4: and he talked to us and he said, I just 314 00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 4: need to get Chris on the stand. Mister Abbott had 315 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:57,800 Speaker 4: a plan before he passed away. The opponent attorneys they 316 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:02,560 Speaker 4: wanted more time after he passed away. Then they wanted 317 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:06,520 Speaker 4: to immediately start up with trial and everything. And we 318 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 4: were there every day. But one of the excuses after 319 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:13,399 Speaker 4: miss Sabatt had passed. They said the reason they didn't 320 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:16,480 Speaker 4: call us on the standing after they had sentenced Julius 321 00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:20,800 Speaker 4: because they didn't know we were there. It was just 322 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 4: a mockery. 323 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 5: I was devastated. I was devastated when I heard the 324 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:28,720 Speaker 5: word we rest. I think I was a little older 325 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:32,360 Speaker 5: than thirteen, and I didn't understand how you couldn't put 326 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:35,000 Speaker 5: people on the stand to help my brothers defense. There 327 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:37,760 Speaker 5: was no defense there and that, I mean that, just 328 00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 5: that pisces me off. 329 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:53,879 Speaker 1: This episode is underwritten by Paul Weiss Rifkin, Porton and Garrison, 330 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 1: a leading international law firm. Paul Weiss has long had 331 00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 1: an unwavering commitment to providing impact. I have full pro 332 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:03,480 Speaker 1: bono legal assistance to the most vulnerable members of our 333 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:07,639 Speaker 1: society and in support of the public interest, including extensive 334 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:12,479 Speaker 1: work in the criminal justice area. 335 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:24,280 Speaker 2: It infuriates me to hear when cases when there's ineffective counsel. 336 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:28,399 Speaker 2: It just makes me so mad, especially if it's an 337 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:31,439 Speaker 2: appointed attorney, that you think that if you don't have 338 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:33,480 Speaker 2: the money to afford an attorney, and so you're getting 339 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:36,679 Speaker 2: appointed one, that they're going to be ineffective and not 340 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:38,840 Speaker 2: help but actually hurt your case. 341 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:39,399 Speaker 1: So much. 342 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:41,240 Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know how I could live with 343 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:46,240 Speaker 2: myself if I was an attorney like that. But I think, 344 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:50,600 Speaker 2: especially with Julius's case, he just didn't get a fair trial. 345 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:54,320 Speaker 1: Bottom line, as we've heard, at Julius's trial, the defense 346 00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:57,040 Speaker 1: didn't even give the jury much information to work with. 347 00:21:57,440 --> 00:21:59,960 Speaker 1: But believe it or not, it gets. 348 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:04,359 Speaker 3: Even during the trial in the jury room, one of 349 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:07,880 Speaker 3: the jurors said out loud, why are we wasting our 350 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:12,440 Speaker 3: time here? We ought to just take that N out 351 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:18,399 Speaker 3: back and bury him outside the jail, And one of 352 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:22,879 Speaker 3: the jurors approached a bailiff, told him what she heard 353 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:26,240 Speaker 3: and asked to talk to the judge on the record. 354 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 3: The judge sort of dismissed it as well. He could 355 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:33,200 Speaker 3: have been talking about Osama bin Laden. We don't know 356 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 3: who the juror was talking about. Take the N word 357 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:42,639 Speaker 3: out of the equation. You still have a juror who 358 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:47,119 Speaker 3: made up his mind and was going to convict Julius 359 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:50,960 Speaker 3: and sentence him to death. Throw the N word in there, 360 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:56,760 Speaker 3: and the racism is just oozing from this case. We 361 00:22:56,920 --> 00:23:03,440 Speaker 3: also know that between nineteen ninety and twoenty twelve, there 362 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:09,040 Speaker 3: was a study conducted in Oklahoma on race and the 363 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:13,680 Speaker 3: death penalty. The authors concluded that an African American male 364 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 3: who is convicted of killing a white male is three 365 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:21,360 Speaker 3: times more likely to get the death penalty in Oklahoma. 366 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:28,360 Speaker 1: So at trial, yet racism incentivized lying witnesses and no 367 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 1: defense whatsoever. So Dale, when you took on this case, 368 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:34,359 Speaker 1: you guys had your work cut out for you, to 369 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:38,280 Speaker 1: say the least. But there was a new law in 370 00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:41,919 Speaker 1: place in Oklahoma that allowed you to do DNA testing 371 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:45,880 Speaker 1: and post conviction, So you tested the red bandana right. 372 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 3: It was sitting in evidence for almost twenty years. Doctor 373 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:55,480 Speaker 3: Shapiro used to be with the Department of Forensic Biology 374 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 3: at the Medical Examiner's Office in New York City, reviewed 375 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 3: the DNA report that was produced by body Selmark and 376 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:09,359 Speaker 3: came to some conclusions. So one of the things that 377 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:15,080 Speaker 3: Megan Toby, the victim's sister, testified to was that the 378 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:19,439 Speaker 3: shooter yelled something at her is she was running away, 379 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:25,600 Speaker 3: And we identified a stain on the bandana, and we 380 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 3: wanted to check if that stain was saliva, and it 381 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:35,240 Speaker 3: came back negative is to saliva. So we don't even 382 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:41,240 Speaker 3: know if that bandana was the same bandana that the 383 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 3: assailant wore, because there's not the saliva stain on it 384 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:49,880 Speaker 3: that should be there, because the assailant yelled. 385 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:53,560 Speaker 1: Don't forget, this was July and Oklahoma, right, So you 386 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:55,879 Speaker 1: do have to suspend a lot of this belief to 387 00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:59,880 Speaker 1: come up with the conclusion that someone Julius or any 388 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 1: one is going to be in an extremely high pressure 389 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:08,240 Speaker 1: situation on a very hot day and not sweat or 390 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:11,600 Speaker 1: breathe into the bandanna that they're supposedly wearing on their face. 391 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:14,119 Speaker 1: We don't know. We'll never know whether the gun was 392 00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:16,480 Speaker 1: wrapped in the bandana or whether the gun was taken 393 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:19,479 Speaker 1: and placed in the bandana by the authorities when they 394 00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:22,080 Speaker 1: were taking it out. One would hope they would put 395 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:24,800 Speaker 1: it in an evidence bag instead, But the state made 396 00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:29,080 Speaker 1: a big deal about the fact that there were several 397 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:32,480 Speaker 1: different people's DNA on this bandana, and that one of 398 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 1: the people seems to be somewhat consistent with Julius. Can 399 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:40,400 Speaker 1: you elaborate on what that really means, because some people 400 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 1: would look at that and go, oh, wait a minute, 401 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 1: then you know, I guess I got the right guy 402 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:45,040 Speaker 1: after all. 403 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 3: Right, case closed, But the testing indicates that the DNA 404 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:59,520 Speaker 3: was degraded and was defined as trace DNA, which suggests 405 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 3: that the DNA could have been transferred to the item. 406 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:08,840 Speaker 3: So the bandana is found in Julius's house, it's handled 407 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:14,639 Speaker 3: by the police, it's in his bedroom. It's very possible 408 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:19,199 Speaker 3: that any DNA on there that could be consistent with 409 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:24,240 Speaker 3: Julius's could come about as a result of the transfer 410 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 3: of the DNA. 411 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,960 Speaker 1: So here's what we're faced with. It seems to me 412 00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:33,080 Speaker 1: and correct me if I'm wrong on any of these fronts. 413 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:38,040 Speaker 1: Julius didn't match the eyewitness description. His hair was short 414 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:40,720 Speaker 1: and could never have stuck out from a stocking cap, 415 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 1: but Chris Jordan's absolutely could have. Chris Jordan gave a 416 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:48,600 Speaker 1: confession that was riddled with inconsistencies and false as he 417 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 1: changed his story numerous times. Chris also admitted to planting 418 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:56,080 Speaker 1: the gun exactly where the police found it in Julius's 419 00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:59,640 Speaker 1: house on more than one occasion. There's no salary DNA 420 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 1: on the bandana in evidence, and it doesn't seem to 421 00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 1: be the one that was worn across the shooters or 422 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:09,560 Speaker 1: anyone's face anyway. And I'm leaving out other exculpatory stuff 423 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:13,359 Speaker 1: Forget the incompetent defense, forget the racial bias, forget the jury, 424 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:17,879 Speaker 1: forget everything. Those facts alone would seem to be enough 425 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 1: to unravel this. And then you add to it that 426 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,200 Speaker 1: the only thing connecting him to it are the words 427 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 1: of two highly incentivized witnesses, both of whom happened to 428 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:31,160 Speaker 1: be career criminals, who were maybe an offer they could 429 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:33,720 Speaker 1: almost get refused. I mean, they were given an offer 430 00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 1: that they would be able to avoid lengthy prison sentences 431 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:42,760 Speaker 1: of their own in exchange for their testimony against Julius. 432 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 1: Does that pretty much sum it up? 433 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:48,720 Speaker 3: That's it? And one would think that, you know, why 434 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:52,880 Speaker 3: is Julius even in prison, let alone on death row? 435 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:55,240 Speaker 3: But that's not how it turned out. 436 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:58,480 Speaker 1: This leads to my next question, Kim, his only contact 437 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:02,600 Speaker 1: to the outside world is through letters. Have you gotten 438 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:04,880 Speaker 1: letters directly from him or have you corresponded with him 439 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:05,360 Speaker 1: in any way? 440 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:10,400 Speaker 2: I have, yes, you know, just hearing what he has 441 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:14,800 Speaker 2: to say. And I mean, what I can't understand, but 442 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:19,840 Speaker 2: I'm so grateful for is someone in Julius's situation who 443 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 2: could just be so angry at the world. And I 444 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:25,280 Speaker 2: don't know how I would act if I was in 445 00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:28,200 Speaker 2: his situation. But to see the grace that he has 446 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 2: and to see how he's fighting through this and won't 447 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:37,560 Speaker 2: give up, it inspires me. So I want to fight 448 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:41,600 Speaker 2: like I We need him to get out. I mean, 449 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:44,760 Speaker 2: just to even know that because he was an athlete, 450 00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:48,280 Speaker 2: to see a lot of athletes support him and write 451 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:52,000 Speaker 2: letters on his behalf now to send to the governor 452 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:54,600 Speaker 2: has been so amazing to see. You know, when he 453 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:58,360 Speaker 2: was playing ball, Blake Griffin's dad was his coach and 454 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 2: is completely in support Julius and Blake Griffin wrote an amazing, 455 00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:07,200 Speaker 2: heartfelt letter for the governor to see in support of 456 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:12,600 Speaker 2: Julius's release. Russell Westbrook. There's been some amazing people that 457 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:15,880 Speaker 2: really want to see him released as well, people that 458 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:19,760 Speaker 2: grew up there, people that played there. Carmelo Anthony, who 459 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:22,200 Speaker 2: played in Oklahoma for a little while. His wife is 460 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:22,880 Speaker 2: my best friend. 461 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:23,120 Speaker 3: You know. 462 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:25,760 Speaker 2: I sent him all the facts and he wrote a 463 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:28,600 Speaker 2: letter as well. It's amazing to see the support that 464 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:32,400 Speaker 2: has come together. And I hope that everyone really pays 465 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,680 Speaker 2: attention before it's too late, because we will not go 466 00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:37,320 Speaker 2: out easy on this one. 467 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:40,400 Speaker 1: And we know that the governor of Oklahoma is a 468 00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:45,840 Speaker 1: guy who cares about criminal justice reform. He's done some 469 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:49,480 Speaker 1: positive things, for sure. It would be hard to imagine 470 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 1: that he and the members of the Parole Board wouldn't 471 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:56,240 Speaker 1: be moved to take action here. Between the outcry and 472 00:29:56,280 --> 00:30:01,600 Speaker 1: the public, the support of prominent people, faith leaders, business leaders, 473 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:04,440 Speaker 1: so many different people, and the facts of the case 474 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:06,240 Speaker 1: cry out for justice. 475 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:10,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, everyone always asks me like, well, 476 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:13,360 Speaker 2: what can we do? And I think the most important 477 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:18,240 Speaker 2: thing to do is call the Governor's office and elected 478 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:21,480 Speaker 2: officials that can really make a difference, and just be 479 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:25,680 Speaker 2: really loud, and you should go to Justice for Julius 480 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:29,000 Speaker 2: Jones dot com first of all, look into his case. 481 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:32,960 Speaker 2: Everything is on this website, from the documentary The Last 482 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 2: Offense with Fiola Davis to where you can sign the 483 00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:42,720 Speaker 2: petition in favor of Julius, and you can also subscribe 484 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 2: to stay up to date on what's going on, and 485 00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:48,720 Speaker 2: it even gives you a link to email the Parole Board. 486 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:51,600 Speaker 2: I do believe that the Parole Board is like in 487 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:55,040 Speaker 2: favor of a form. I believe everyone is very compassionate 488 00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:58,600 Speaker 2: from what I've heard, So I just urge everyone please 489 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:02,120 Speaker 2: sign the petition for Julie Jones. If you're moved by 490 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:05,600 Speaker 2: his story, I've done it. I believe in him so much. 491 00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:21,200 Speaker 2: I believe in his innocence. Justice for Julius Jones dot Com. 492 00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:24,560 Speaker 1: When we initially released this episode, as you heard mentioned 493 00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:27,760 Speaker 1: several times throughout, there were two witnesses who had been 494 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:30,720 Speaker 1: in jail with Chris Jordan, and they are Manual Little 495 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:33,680 Speaker 1: John and Christopher Berry. Now since then there's been a 496 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:38,840 Speaker 1: third man. Now, mind you, only the state can incentivize 497 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:41,960 Speaker 1: a witness. Everybody knows this right. It's totally illegal for 498 00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:45,880 Speaker 1: anyone but the state to bribe a witness. So these 499 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:49,200 Speaker 1: men have nothing to gain by coming forward. In fact, 500 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:51,440 Speaker 1: they have a lot to lose. Here's what Manuel Little 501 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:55,880 Speaker 1: John said in his two thousand and four sworn Affidavid. Quote. 502 00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:58,800 Speaker 1: Jordan stated that he felt guilty because he was going 503 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:01,520 Speaker 1: to implicate his code of Julius Jones in a murder 504 00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:05,200 Speaker 1: case to avoid getting the death penalty for himself. That's 505 00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:09,240 Speaker 1: end quote in Little John's Affidavid. After admitting to hiding 506 00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:14,040 Speaker 1: the gun in the Joneses home, Jordan stated to Little John, quote, 507 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:19,520 Speaker 1: Julius didn't do it. End quote. Julius wasn't there then, 508 00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:23,880 Speaker 1: Christopher Barry in his two thousand and four sworn affid 509 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:28,040 Speaker 1: David referring to what Chris Jordan had told him, quote, 510 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,120 Speaker 1: he was the actual person who shot the victim in 511 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:36,040 Speaker 1: his case. Mister Jordan also said, I'm still quoting that 512 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:38,720 Speaker 1: because he was the first person to talk to police, 513 00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:41,880 Speaker 1: he was getting a deal and would not get the 514 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:44,880 Speaker 1: death penalty. End quote. And finally, in March of twenty 515 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:47,920 Speaker 1: twenty one, we have a sworn affidavit from Roderick Wesley 516 00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:53,120 Speaker 1: and he says the following on video about his interaction 517 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:54,000 Speaker 1: with Chris Jordan. 518 00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:58,160 Speaker 6: Me and Jordan had worked together. One day, We're sitting 519 00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:00,400 Speaker 6: there and I'm telling him about my situation. He pretty 520 00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:03,320 Speaker 6: much told me, aboy, he is I guess you say 521 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:06,720 Speaker 6: he was being sort of remorseful, but it was one 522 00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:10,360 Speaker 6: of the cases where I'm sorry, but I'm not gonna 523 00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:12,800 Speaker 6: jump out there and just you know, throw myself to 524 00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:15,880 Speaker 6: the wolves like that. And so when he ended up 525 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:19,120 Speaker 6: breaking it down, it was pretty much like, you know, yeah, 526 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:22,400 Speaker 6: I committed the aid that somebody else was getting accused of. 527 00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:26,520 Speaker 6: You know, he admitted that he won, you know, did 528 00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:29,080 Speaker 6: kill it, and it wasn't this guy, you know, it 529 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:31,720 Speaker 6: was a big decision, is do I jump out there? 530 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:32,040 Speaker 1: What? 531 00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:35,080 Speaker 6: But I looked at it as if it was my situation. 532 00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:37,959 Speaker 6: I would want with somebody who has information to go 533 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:41,200 Speaker 6: ahead and do it, because this is man life online. 534 00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:44,640 Speaker 1: I mean, what could I possibly add to further proove 535 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:49,480 Speaker 1: what we've been all saying all along? Julius Jones is 536 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:54,280 Speaker 1: an innocent man on death throw in Oklahoma. Since almost 537 00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:57,560 Speaker 1: seven million people have signed a petition on Julia's behalf 538 00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:01,600 Speaker 1: Banker's boxes of signatures were delivered to the Oklahoma Border 539 00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:04,600 Speaker 1: Pardons in Parole begging for justice in this case. And 540 00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:09,600 Speaker 1: now since this latest statement from Roderck Wesley, Julius has 541 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:14,200 Speaker 1: been granted a hearing. It's a Stage two commutation hearing 542 00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:16,560 Speaker 1: in front of the Oklahoma Bord of Pardons in Parole. 543 00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:19,520 Speaker 1: That it's happening on September thirteen, twenty twenty one. But 544 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:23,080 Speaker 1: that doesn't mean it's time to rest or relax. Now 545 00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:26,360 Speaker 1: is the time to ramp up the pressure. If you'd 546 00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:29,120 Speaker 1: like to add your name to that petition, it's going 547 00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:32,080 Speaker 1: to be linked in the bio. Please help us keep 548 00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:34,640 Speaker 1: the pressure on. And with that we're going to go 549 00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:38,160 Speaker 1: to closing arguments where of course, first of all, I 550 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:40,560 Speaker 1: think all of you, and now we're going to hear 551 00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:45,759 Speaker 1: from Dale, Antoinette, and of course Julius's mother, Madeline. But 552 00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:47,280 Speaker 1: let's kick it off with you first. 553 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:49,799 Speaker 2: Kim Oh, thank you for having me on here, and 554 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:52,440 Speaker 2: thank you for everything that you do and for showing 555 00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:55,240 Speaker 2: me the way. Seriously, I look up to you so much, 556 00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:59,839 Speaker 2: and I'm so grateful to you for sharing so many 557 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,640 Speaker 2: cases with me and that we're able to hopefully open 558 00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:06,799 Speaker 2: up people's minds and hearts that might have been a 559 00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:09,759 Speaker 2: little bit closed off when it comes to reform, or 560 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:12,560 Speaker 2: might not understood how they could help, and then we're 561 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:15,799 Speaker 2: giving them a platform where they can help out and 562 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:18,840 Speaker 2: be a part of the conversation and help fight for 563 00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:21,279 Speaker 2: people that really really deserve it. 564 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:25,600 Speaker 1: So thank you Dale, You've done a fantastic job and 565 00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:27,759 Speaker 1: I appreciate you making the time. I know it's going 566 00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:28,560 Speaker 1: to make a difference. 567 00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:34,120 Speaker 3: Well, thank you, Jason. We have a commutation application pending 568 00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:39,480 Speaker 3: before the Oklahoma Pardon and Parole Board. Julius is thankful 569 00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:43,239 Speaker 3: for all the support, the prayers, the letters that he 570 00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:48,440 Speaker 3: has received that is giving him strength. This case got 571 00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:52,880 Speaker 3: the attention it deserved when Viola Davis and Julius Tennan 572 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:57,959 Speaker 3: produced the last defense that put light on this injustice 573 00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:02,279 Speaker 3: and wrongful conviction. Troubling to me and we should all 574 00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:06,080 Speaker 3: be concerned about this is that without the last defense, 575 00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:09,959 Speaker 3: no one would be interested in this case, Julius would 576 00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:14,600 Speaker 3: have been just another African American man in prison saying 577 00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:17,839 Speaker 3: he was innocent, one of the four percent, and no 578 00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:22,680 Speaker 3: one would care. There are thousands of Julius's behind bars 579 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:27,280 Speaker 3: today and people should care. And we know you care, Jason, 580 00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:31,840 Speaker 3: and we appreciate that the struggle isn't over. Thank you 581 00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:32,439 Speaker 3: very much. 582 00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:36,279 Speaker 1: Why don't we save mom for last, because you know 583 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:38,640 Speaker 1: she's mom? So Antoinette over to you. 584 00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:43,440 Speaker 5: So first I would say that my brother, Julius there 585 00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:48,920 Speaker 5: is Jones. He did not kill Paul. How my brother 586 00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:53,040 Speaker 5: is a human being. He is not a number. When 587 00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:55,799 Speaker 5: we consider people human beings and not just numbers, and 588 00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:58,680 Speaker 5: we really take into account all the facts. I'm just 589 00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:01,960 Speaker 5: asking them to correct it's wrong. I'm asking you to 590 00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:04,200 Speaker 5: look at all of the key points in this case. 591 00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:08,640 Speaker 5: I'm asking you to understand that my brother never got 592 00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:11,440 Speaker 5: a fair defense, he never got a proper defense, He 593 00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:15,799 Speaker 5: never got a jur of his peers. He never got 594 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:19,720 Speaker 5: a chance to voice what happened to him from his side. 595 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:23,480 Speaker 5: And I'm just asking you, as a human being to 596 00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:26,480 Speaker 5: understand and take my brother in consideration as a human 597 00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:29,200 Speaker 5: being and not a number. He is not a person 598 00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:30,840 Speaker 5: that will take a life. He is a person that 599 00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:33,600 Speaker 5: will protect a life. He is a person that cares 600 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:37,239 Speaker 5: about everybody's well being. To this day, he cares. He 601 00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:42,200 Speaker 5: cares more about how everybody else is doing than how 602 00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:44,960 Speaker 5: he's doing. Inside. That's who my brother is. He's a 603 00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:48,360 Speaker 5: person that cares. He's a loyal person. He is a 604 00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:52,600 Speaker 5: person that loves life. I never gave up and I'm 605 00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:54,360 Speaker 5: still not gonna give up. We shall not give up. 606 00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:57,680 Speaker 5: We shall not rest. Even though the defense rests for him, 607 00:37:57,680 --> 00:37:58,680 Speaker 5: we shall not rest. 608 00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:03,240 Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you, And now for the final words, Madeline. 609 00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:07,000 Speaker 4: It First of all, Julius is a good person. He's 610 00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:12,760 Speaker 4: very kind, he's loving, compassion, and a lot of times 611 00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:16,919 Speaker 4: he will hurt himself to keep from hurting someone else. 612 00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:20,000 Speaker 4: And that's the reason he's in predicament. He's in now. 613 00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:27,040 Speaker 4: And I just want to say to the bole board 614 00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:31,360 Speaker 4: that one science does not fit all and that I 615 00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:35,960 Speaker 4: would like for them to take careful consideration concerning Julius 616 00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:40,440 Speaker 4: and to look at what he will be able to 617 00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:45,640 Speaker 4: contribute to society for if they spare his life. We 618 00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:49,319 Speaker 4: just need to try to get things right because when 619 00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:53,040 Speaker 4: justice is covered up, it stays covered for so long, 620 00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:56,320 Speaker 4: but it will either burn through or it will grow. 621 00:38:57,080 --> 00:39:00,920 Speaker 4: And right now I feel like that justice is growing 622 00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:05,520 Speaker 4: because it wants to be heard and it wants to 623 00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:10,239 Speaker 4: be fulfilled what it's really meant to be justice for all, 624 00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:15,440 Speaker 4: not just for some of us. And you know, freedom 625 00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:20,680 Speaker 4: is worth more than money. My biggest joy is to 626 00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:24,680 Speaker 4: help my son home and to be about the things 627 00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:27,880 Speaker 4: that he's dreamed and longed to want to do. And 628 00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:32,960 Speaker 4: I thank God for this opportunity today to be able 629 00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:37,240 Speaker 4: to express so many things that I've held in today. 630 00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:40,759 Speaker 4: I really thank God for you, Jason. I thank God 631 00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:42,799 Speaker 4: for people like you. 632 00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:54,040 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrong for Conviction with Jason Flamer. 633 00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:57,520 Speaker 1: Please support your local innocence projects and go to the 634 00:39:57,600 --> 00:39:59,520 Speaker 1: link in our bio to see how you can help. 635 00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:03,600 Speaker 1: I'd like to thank our production team Connor Hall, Jeff Clyburn, 636 00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:06,920 Speaker 1: and Kevin Warnis. The music on the show, as always, 637 00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:10,520 Speaker 1: is by three time Oscar nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be 638 00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:13,839 Speaker 1: sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and 639 00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:18,160 Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason 640 00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:20,640 Speaker 1: Flahm is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and 641 00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:30,279 Speaker 1: association with Signal Company Number one