WEBVTT - Dr. Daniel Levitin Explains How Music Can Help Heal the Brain

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<v Speaker 1>Let's talk about it.

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<v Speaker 2>Let's talk about the May Hero. Let's talk about it.

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<v Speaker 2>Let's talk about the May Hero. Welcome to the Man,

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome back to the mail room of Everybody, Doctor Jesse

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<v Speaker 2>Mills here, joined as always by Jordan Run to my

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<v Speaker 2>on air producer personality, Man of the Street, Brooklyn Night

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<v Speaker 2>to the Core by way of Boston and today. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>is that a fair intro, Jordan, I mean the superlatives

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<v Speaker 2>I keep I can't. I can't come up with any

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<v Speaker 2>more superlatives for you well and longtime music journalists.

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<v Speaker 3>So this is a really special episode from me. I

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<v Speaker 3>am so pumped.

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<v Speaker 2>That is a perfect segue into our guest, who are

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<v Speaker 2>beyond honored to have that. Doctor Daniel Levinton is able

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<v Speaker 2>to spend a little bit of time with us today

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<v Speaker 2>and honestly, I mean this this could be a ten

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<v Speaker 2>part series just because of this, you know, because truly

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<v Speaker 2>there are a few people that get to actually wear

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<v Speaker 2>the genius label. But he is, I mean, he has

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<v Speaker 2>his brilliance has applied to his work as a cognitive neuroscience,

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<v Speaker 2>a musician, a record producer. I mean to have that

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<v Speaker 2>ear as a whole other level of genius and a

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<v Speaker 2>best selling author. I mean, and actually, you know, there

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<v Speaker 2>are authors. I wrote a book, there are writers, and

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<v Speaker 2>I think Daniel is actually a writer. I mean, his

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<v Speaker 2>words and how he's able to convey complex information really

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<v Speaker 2>make him who he is. And he can take some

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<v Speaker 2>of the most esoteric work that he does in the

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<v Speaker 2>lab and translate it into things that everybody can understand

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<v Speaker 2>without downplaying, and that is very, very difficult. Einstein was

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<v Speaker 2>able to do that. Of all people, not that I'm

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<v Speaker 2>comparing you, but I think you belong in that pantheon,

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<v Speaker 2>Doctor Levitton. Just people that have made such a contribution

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<v Speaker 2>not only to the professional literature and somebody that has

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<v Speaker 2>a PubMed search behind him, but also that works in

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<v Speaker 2>the popular space as well. He's the founding Dean of

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<v Speaker 2>Arts of Humanities at Minerva University and James McGill Professor

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<v Speaker 2>Emeritus at McGill University. Doctor Leviton is published six consecutive

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<v Speaker 2>best sellers, not just one, including This is Your Brain

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<v Speaker 2>on music and as a problem speaker on nerve science,

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<v Speaker 2>productivity and aging. It really is a classic. And anyway,

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<v Speaker 2>so I mean, I could go on forever about your intro,

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<v Speaker 2>but then we're not gonna have time to really, I

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<v Speaker 2>use the word pick your brain. Maybe obviously not literally

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<v Speaker 2>because you can't, but at least figuratively in such a way.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, you're you're a urologist. If you have to choose

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<v Speaker 4>something to pick at, I would choose the brain.

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<v Speaker 2>That's right, fair enough? Yes, yeah, we're all keeping our

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<v Speaker 2>clothes on for this one today. But yeah, there's a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of other people know.

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<v Speaker 4>I may not have pants on at a boy, that's right.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, you know we're post COVID, but doesn't mean

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<v Speaker 2>you ever have to go back to that. Yeah, whatever

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<v Speaker 2>happens below the belt, but I didn't even stay below

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<v Speaker 2>the belt. It ends up in my office, So you're right, Dad,

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<v Speaker 2>you're right. Oh my gosh, I don't even have to

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<v Speaker 2>do the jokes today. I don't have to do the jokes.

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<v Speaker 2>But Jordan, I got Dad Levitton here. How are you, God,

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<v Speaker 2>it's great to see you.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm well, thank you. Trinity wants to get oh my

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<v Speaker 4>gosh on air?

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<v Speaker 2>Is this a Is this a certified service animal dog

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<v Speaker 2>or is this a.

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<v Speaker 4>No, she's a rescue. She was found wandering the mean

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<v Speaker 4>streets of Pixley, California. Yes, outside of Bakersfield. Yeah, and

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<v Speaker 4>she was rescued, fostered, and then I got her in September.

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<v Speaker 2>Does she have that Bakersfield sound? Does she perk up

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<v Speaker 2>when she hears.

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<v Speaker 3>Merle Hag Grand Parsons, Grand Parsons.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yes, I could tell. I could tell she has

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<v Speaker 2>that look about her. She's got a little bit of

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<v Speaker 2>the Bakersfield but put some refined West La vibe as well.

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<v Speaker 2>Dwight Yoakam exactly, Dwight yoakambe later day Bakersfield sound. Yeah, golly,

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<v Speaker 2>we did some good stuff out here in California for

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<v Speaker 2>country music and above.

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<v Speaker 4>So yeah, let's talk about buff implicit. There's a hierarchy,

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<v Speaker 4>that's right, implicit, there's a hack.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, you know, we've got the Sunset sound, we've got

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<v Speaker 2>Laurel Canyon. Ill never forget Bakersfield, for God's sakes, and

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<v Speaker 2>in a lot of ways, we wouldn't have the Eagles

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<v Speaker 2>without Bakersfield. So definitely absolutely right, Jackson Brown, I mean, Jordan,

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<v Speaker 2>what am I missing? If a Joni Mitchell we're going

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<v Speaker 2>to talk about today.

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<v Speaker 4>Flying Burrito Brothers.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, there you go. Well, you got the grand Parsons

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<v Speaker 2>exactly right, exactly right? Well, Dad, Yeah, I mean, just

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<v Speaker 2>let's get into this, you know. So as a cognitive neuroscientist, right,

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<v Speaker 2>you spend your life studying the brain and some of

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<v Speaker 2>the aspects of the brain that are hard to characterize.

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<v Speaker 2>But one of the things that I think you have

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<v Speaker 2>been able to characterize is making an impact on conditions

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<v Speaker 2>like Alzheimer's and Parkinson's movement disorders. And of course to

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<v Speaker 2>this show, which is really a show four men and

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<v Speaker 2>the people that love those men. We're all getting older

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<v Speaker 2>one way or the other. And you quote brilliantly Dylan

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<v Speaker 2>Thomas in your book Successful Aging, really in the first

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<v Speaker 2>couple of pages, you know, we're all trying to rage

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<v Speaker 2>against the dying of the light and also the who

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<v Speaker 2>for that matter, great cold hope I die before I

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<v Speaker 2>get old. But how do we do this? I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>tell me what happens to the brain as we age?

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<v Speaker 2>Why do we get things like Alzheimer's and Parkinson's. And

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<v Speaker 2>I know I'm giving you, you know, not a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of time for this, but just you know, start riffing

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<v Speaker 2>on this, because that's what you are. You're a musician.

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<v Speaker 4>Thank you well for the listening audience at home. Of course,

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<v Speaker 4>doctor Mills knows the answers to all these questions, and

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<v Speaker 4>he's feigning that he doesn't, so that I have an

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<v Speaker 4>opportunity to talk, and I invite you to jump in

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<v Speaker 4>if I got anything that contradicts your understanding, but you're

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<v Speaker 4>too kind. Let's talk about diseases of aging. I mean,

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<v Speaker 4>the big three are Alzheimer's, dementia, and which isn't necessarily

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<v Speaker 4>Alzheimer's related, and well, let's say Alzheimer's dementia, Parkinson's and

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<v Speaker 4>cancer and so across evolutionary time skills. What Darwin taught

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<v Speaker 4>us is that the primary mission of your genes is

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<v Speaker 4>to pass themselves on to a new generation, and anything

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<v Speaker 4>that will help you do that becomes selected through the

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<v Speaker 4>process of natural selection over tens of thousands of years.

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<v Speaker 4>So if you're charming and you're not psychotic, you're probably

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<v Speaker 4>more likely to be able to reproduce, and so charming

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<v Speaker 4>as a trait gets passed on. Psychoticism tends not to.

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<v Speaker 4>If you stick around to help raise your children, if

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<v Speaker 4>you're the kind of man that is a good father,

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<v Speaker 4>your children to be better positioned to pass on their DNA.

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<v Speaker 4>I mention all of this as a long wind up,

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<v Speaker 4>because evolution doesn't care about what happens after you've pro created.

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<v Speaker 4>There's no evolutionary biological force to manipulate your genome once

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<v Speaker 4>you've already procreated. So we see these diseases of aging

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<v Speaker 4>because there's no evolutionary pressure to get rid of them.

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<v Speaker 4>That's sort of the thirty thousand foot view. Evolution and

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<v Speaker 4>the genome are driving it. Now, you know, they are

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<v Speaker 4>environmental components to this. But we're seeing epidemic proportions of

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<v Speaker 4>Parkinson's and cancers and Alzheimer's for a number of reasons,

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<v Speaker 4>but the largest reason by far is that we're an

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<v Speaker 4>aging population. We are old enough to get diseases that

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<v Speaker 4>people didn't live long enough to get in generations before,

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<v Speaker 4>in our grandfather's generation, and the diseases then have an

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<v Speaker 4>opportunity to manifest themselves in a way they didn't before.

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<v Speaker 2>I love that. I mean, so we're basically genetically whistling

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<v Speaker 2>past the graveyard when he hit about thirty five or so.

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<v Speaker 2>It sounds like and that you know we.

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<v Speaker 4>Were, Or if you're Tony Randall eighty.

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<v Speaker 2>There you go. That's right, yeah, Mike Jagger. I mean

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<v Speaker 2>that guy still does more pilates than I do at

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<v Speaker 2>his age. But you're right. I mean, I think that's

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<v Speaker 2>a really critical point that people should understand, is that

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<v Speaker 2>and I've made this argument years ago, and by the way,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know all the answers, but I do impute

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<v Speaker 2>with a bit of Midwestern common sense in that that

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<v Speaker 2>there was a study years ago, or a conjecture years

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<v Speaker 2>ago that statins, which are what we treat men and

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<v Speaker 2>women for cholesterol issues, may contribute to Alzheimer's. And you know,

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<v Speaker 2>the common sense doctor part of me says, well, that's

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<v Speaker 2>because we're not dying of heart attacks when we're fifty

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<v Speaker 2>or sixty. So are we living to the point where

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<v Speaker 2>we're developing dementia because we would have otherwise that gene

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<v Speaker 2>would have already kicked in caused a widow maker heart attack.

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<v Speaker 4>And that's exactly right.

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<v Speaker 2>And we wouldn't have gotten there. And so it's not

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<v Speaker 2>really the status is that we're so good at getting

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<v Speaker 2>older that at some point something is going to get us.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah. I think that's exactly right. And the trick of course,

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<v Speaker 4>we can talk about the amount of time you're on

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<v Speaker 4>the earth as your life span, but the amount of

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<v Speaker 4>the proportion of that that you're healthy as your health span.

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<v Speaker 4>And this is a concept that hasn't really worked its

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<v Speaker 4>way down to the average person. But you know, the

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<v Speaker 4>idea of health span as well. Most of us were born,

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<v Speaker 4>you know, we grow up Somewhere along the way. You

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<v Speaker 4>might get mononucleosis or a broken leg or something, but

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<v Speaker 4>you're generally healthy, and then at some point you hit

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<v Speaker 4>a wall. It could be eighty, it could be ninety,

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<v Speaker 4>but you hit a wall and you get sick and

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<v Speaker 4>you die of that illness. And sometimes the illness in

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<v Speaker 4>the case of MS or Parkinson's, can last ten or

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<v Speaker 4>twenty years before you die. So the effort, I think

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<v Speaker 4>is to make your life span is probably genetically determined

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<v Speaker 4>unless you walk in front of a bus. Your health span, though,

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<v Speaker 4>is largely under your control. And so what we talk

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<v Speaker 4>about is trying to increase the duration of your health span.

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<v Speaker 2>It brings up the point that we are seeing diseases

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<v Speaker 2>of excess and you do an amazing job in your book,

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<v Speaker 2>Successful Agent on talking about diet, and I think what

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<v Speaker 2>you're saying there is that we're not really looking at longevity,

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<v Speaker 2>in other words, how to live longer, but living better

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<v Speaker 2>in that a lot of things that affect our lifespan

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<v Speaker 2>actually hit our health span when we're in our twenties

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<v Speaker 2>and thirties. You know, the rates of obesity, heart disease,

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<v Speaker 2>metabolic syndrome which often leads to diabetes. Those are things

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<v Speaker 2>that are certainly going to affect our lifespan. But maybe

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<v Speaker 2>when we're sixty. But if you hit that when you're twenty.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, if you're fifty eighty one hundred and twenty

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<v Speaker 2>pounds two hundred pounds overweight when you're in your twenties,

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<v Speaker 2>then that's going to affect your health span because you're

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<v Speaker 2>not going to able to get up and move, and

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<v Speaker 2>you're not going to be able to potentially not even

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<v Speaker 2>be able to procreate. Interestingly enough, because one of the

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<v Speaker 2>biggest problems I see in my fertility practice is ozobesity

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<v Speaker 2>and trying to help men, you know, improve their sperm counts,

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<v Speaker 2>which therefore is adding to not only their health span

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<v Speaker 2>and their lifespan, but also their evolutionary span. And you're

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<v Speaker 2>promoting that DNA a little bit longer. So I like

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<v Speaker 2>how you frame that. Talk to me then about what

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<v Speaker 2>you think the pillars of healthy aging and healthy living

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<v Speaker 2>are then, I mean, what are Because as you said,

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<v Speaker 2>this hasn't trickled down necessarily to everybody in the in

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<v Speaker 2>our listening audience about the difference between lifespan and health span.

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<v Speaker 2>So that's revelation. But then what our takeaway messages, even

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<v Speaker 2>this early in our discussion on the pillars of aging,

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<v Speaker 2>that we can do well, how do we prevent these

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<v Speaker 2>nerded generative disorders just in case we get to make

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<v Speaker 2>it to sixty or seventy.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, so I'll back up and say that we now

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<v Speaker 4>think that your health span is controlled by about twenty percent.

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<v Speaker 4>Twenty percent impacted by your genome, your genetic endowment. Eighty

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<v Speaker 4>percent is behavioral, lifestyle, cultural. That's a lot of wiggle room.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, So you can outrun your genes.

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<v Speaker 4>You can outrun your genes, right. So I would say

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<v Speaker 4>the biggest factor statistically, when we look at epidemiological studies

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<v Speaker 4>of millions of people and we assess them for variety

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<v Speaker 4>of lifestyle variables and personality variables, the biggest predictor of

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<v Speaker 4>health span and longevity and overall life satisfaction is the

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<v Speaker 4>trait of conscientiousness. And this is a stir of personality

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<v Speaker 4>traits that include things like doing what you say you'll do,

0:12:04.559 --> 0:12:10.120
<v Speaker 4>stick toitivenesss grit, following rules when appropriate to follow rules.

0:12:10.120 --> 0:12:14.080
<v Speaker 4>So conscientious people tend not to jaywalk, and so they're

0:12:14.160 --> 0:12:17.800
<v Speaker 4>less likely to get hit by a bus. They tend

0:12:17.840 --> 0:12:21.760
<v Speaker 4>not to commit heinous crimes that would ended up end

0:12:21.800 --> 0:12:23.839
<v Speaker 4>them up in prison, which is bad for your health.

0:12:24.360 --> 0:12:26.760
<v Speaker 4>And they tend to have a doctor. You know, they

0:12:26.800 --> 0:12:29.160
<v Speaker 4>have a regular doctor, and they see the doctor regularly,

0:12:29.160 --> 0:12:32.120
<v Speaker 4>and they do what the doctor says. This is key

0:12:32.200 --> 0:12:34.559
<v Speaker 4>because I don't know about your practice, but a number

0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:37.640
<v Speaker 4>of doctors tell me eighty percent of their patients have

0:12:37.679 --> 0:12:39.600
<v Speaker 4>a note in the file non compliant.

0:12:40.120 --> 0:12:43.160
<v Speaker 2>Oh wow, that's terrible. Yeah, zero in my practice. But

0:12:43.400 --> 0:12:44.400
<v Speaker 2>I'll think about it now.

0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:46.240
<v Speaker 4>Well, maybe you kick them out if they don't comply.

0:12:46.640 --> 0:12:48.720
<v Speaker 2>You go, that's right. Oh, my stuff is so easy

0:12:48.720 --> 0:12:50.640
<v Speaker 2>to comply to because it makes you, you know, have

0:12:50.720 --> 0:12:53.280
<v Speaker 2>better sex and live longer. So you know, I've got

0:12:53.400 --> 0:12:55.960
<v Speaker 2>great compliance. But that's just the luck of the draw.

0:12:56.559 --> 0:12:59.680
<v Speaker 4>Well, I mean, I mean typically I think psychiatrists do

0:12:59.760 --> 0:13:03.640
<v Speaker 4>all just gps and the chronologists they complain about this.

0:13:03.760 --> 0:13:06.679
<v Speaker 4>So you know, you have a doctor. When you get sick,

0:13:07.000 --> 0:13:09.360
<v Speaker 4>you have somebody to see. They've got your chart, they've

0:13:09.360 --> 0:13:12.880
<v Speaker 4>got your history. Conscientiousness is a huge factor, and I

0:13:12.920 --> 0:13:17.920
<v Speaker 4>would apply that to things like good sleep hygiene, going

0:13:17.920 --> 0:13:19.640
<v Speaker 4>to bed at the same time and waking up at

0:13:19.679 --> 0:13:22.880
<v Speaker 4>the same time every day to the extent that you can.

0:13:24.040 --> 0:13:26.880
<v Speaker 4>It's much easier on your body. The human body is

0:13:26.920 --> 0:13:29.600
<v Speaker 4>a Republican. It doesn't like change.

0:13:30.120 --> 0:13:33.079
<v Speaker 2>Okay, man, they just do it out there. That's the

0:13:33.120 --> 0:13:34.199
<v Speaker 2>Canadian and you talking.

0:13:34.240 --> 0:13:39.359
<v Speaker 4>There nothing wrong with Republicans. You why change something that's working.

0:13:39.400 --> 0:13:42.400
<v Speaker 2>That's right exactly, whether it's working for you or someone else.

0:13:42.559 --> 0:13:43.720
<v Speaker 4>Not taking a partisan instance.

0:13:43.840 --> 0:13:46.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I get you right there. Yeah, we'll let that

0:13:46.160 --> 0:13:47.400
<v Speaker 2>one fly. Yea.

0:13:48.240 --> 0:13:51.760
<v Speaker 4>And so you know, good sleep hygiene, sleep in a

0:13:51.800 --> 0:13:55.720
<v Speaker 4>dark room, no screens, two hours before bed, all that stuff.

0:13:57.040 --> 0:14:01.839
<v Speaker 4>Alcohol interferes with sleepsyd you don't get. I mean, it

0:14:01.920 --> 0:14:03.640
<v Speaker 4>might knock you out, but that's not the same as

0:14:03.679 --> 0:14:08.840
<v Speaker 4>getting a good night to sleep. And then diet. I

0:14:08.880 --> 0:14:11.160
<v Speaker 4>went down a black hole for about six months when

0:14:11.160 --> 0:14:13.120
<v Speaker 4>I was writing the book, trying to figure out what

0:14:13.160 --> 0:14:17.400
<v Speaker 4>the dietary guidelines were. And it's in our line of work.

0:14:17.600 --> 0:14:22.560
<v Speaker 4>You have to consider people in the Mediterranean and who

0:14:22.600 --> 0:14:25.840
<v Speaker 4>follow the Mediterranean diet seem to live longer. They are

0:14:25.840 --> 0:14:29.680
<v Speaker 4>these so called blue zones, right, there's seven of them

0:14:29.680 --> 0:14:32.400
<v Speaker 4>around the world or something. But it's not just that

0:14:32.440 --> 0:14:35.160
<v Speaker 4>they're eating the Mediterranean diet, which is high in fish

0:14:35.480 --> 0:14:38.880
<v Speaker 4>and fresh vegetables. It's that they're walking a lot, they

0:14:38.920 --> 0:14:42.320
<v Speaker 4>engage in manual labor, they have family support.

0:14:41.960 --> 0:14:44.520
<v Speaker 2>Networks, friends, and family clothes. Yeah.

0:14:44.720 --> 0:14:47.640
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, so we don't know that it's the diet. And

0:14:48.040 --> 0:14:50.920
<v Speaker 4>my view, which might be somewhat controversial, is if there

0:14:51.000 --> 0:14:58.680
<v Speaker 4>was clearly a superior diet vegetarian, vegan, omnivore, keto, Mediterranean,

0:14:59.000 --> 0:15:02.960
<v Speaker 4>whatever it was, if it was clearly superior, we'd know.

0:15:04.040 --> 0:15:07.720
<v Speaker 2>And we don't, right well, clear superior. Also that you

0:15:07.760 --> 0:15:12.000
<v Speaker 2>also mentioned in the pillars sticktuitiveness, and I think any

0:15:12.080 --> 0:15:14.920
<v Speaker 2>diet that you can stick with is probably a good diet.

0:15:15.120 --> 0:15:18.440
<v Speaker 2>But also you know, it's very difficult to stick to

0:15:18.440 --> 0:15:20.640
<v Speaker 2>anything other than the Mediterranean diet, which is a whole,

0:15:21.240 --> 0:15:24.920
<v Speaker 2>very thousand plus year old way to live. As you said,

0:15:25.040 --> 0:15:27.080
<v Speaker 2>it's a whole packet, just not just the diet.

0:15:27.200 --> 0:15:29.480
<v Speaker 4>As Woody Allen said, you can live to be one

0:15:29.520 --> 0:15:31.920
<v Speaker 4>hundred if you just give up all the things that

0:15:31.960 --> 0:15:33.360
<v Speaker 4>make you want to live to be one hundred.

0:15:33.680 --> 0:15:36.160
<v Speaker 2>That's right, exactly right, Yeah, And that goes back to

0:15:36.240 --> 0:15:40.000
<v Speaker 2>the idea of health span and lifespan is exactly right,

0:15:40.040 --> 0:15:42.400
<v Speaker 2>although you know you've mentioned that in your book too.

0:15:42.400 --> 0:15:44.120
<v Speaker 2>I mean, there's plenty of examples of people that are

0:15:44.160 --> 0:15:47.480
<v Speaker 2>smoking somepart cigars and drinking and brandy every night. They

0:15:47.480 --> 0:15:50.520
<v Speaker 2>lived one hundred and twelve. It's amazing what we can

0:15:50.560 --> 0:15:53.280
<v Speaker 2>do that those might be the twenty percent that have

0:15:53.360 --> 0:15:55.600
<v Speaker 2>a little bit of a genetic predisposition.

0:15:55.800 --> 0:15:59.600
<v Speaker 4>Oh, for sure. I think it's wrong to look at

0:15:59.600 --> 0:16:03.760
<v Speaker 4>these outliers. I mean, it's smart to look at this statistically.

0:16:03.800 --> 0:16:07.680
<v Speaker 4>There's a bell curve, and you know, eighty five percent

0:16:07.680 --> 0:16:09.360
<v Speaker 4>of people are in the middle of this curve, and

0:16:09.400 --> 0:16:13.960
<v Speaker 4>then there are a few strays on either side. And yeah,

0:16:14.000 --> 0:16:16.920
<v Speaker 4>there's one hundred and twenty one year old frenchwoman I

0:16:16.920 --> 0:16:18.080
<v Speaker 4>think her name was Gene Callum.

0:16:18.240 --> 0:16:18.720
<v Speaker 2>That's right.

0:16:18.960 --> 0:16:21.200
<v Speaker 4>She was smoking, she was drinking, you know. I mean,

0:16:21.520 --> 0:16:23.920
<v Speaker 4>but you can't look at those sort of like looking

0:16:23.960 --> 0:16:27.040
<v Speaker 4>at Charlie Parker and saying, oh, if I become a

0:16:27.080 --> 0:16:29.520
<v Speaker 4>heroin addict, I'll be a great saxophone player.

0:16:29.680 --> 0:16:33.480
<v Speaker 2>That's right. Yeah, But I mean, you know the pre shows, Yeah,

0:16:33.680 --> 0:16:37.520
<v Speaker 2>that's right. I mean, Keith Richards, your name the creativity

0:16:37.560 --> 0:16:39.760
<v Speaker 2>is there. But but yeah, but they're not.

0:16:39.840 --> 0:16:42.880
<v Speaker 4>You can't. You've got to base yourself on the statistics.

0:16:42.400 --> 0:16:44.120
<v Speaker 2>And they're not on the same gene locus. I don't

0:16:44.120 --> 0:16:47.640
<v Speaker 2>think you know, heroin addiction and amazing sax playing, Otherwise

0:16:47.680 --> 0:16:50.040
<v Speaker 2>there'd be no kidney gen So you know.

0:16:51.040 --> 0:16:52.440
<v Speaker 4>I'm glad you said that, not me.

0:16:52.680 --> 0:16:55.360
<v Speaker 2>You have a you know, you have a clear living

0:16:55.400 --> 0:16:58.320
<v Speaker 2>example the guy that's doing it right. But I like

0:16:58.360 --> 0:17:00.280
<v Speaker 2>it you said that because right in the blue zone again,

0:17:00.440 --> 0:17:01.880
<v Speaker 2>you know, you look at Okinawa and you say, if

0:17:01.880 --> 0:17:04.560
<v Speaker 2>you just eat enough fish, you're gonna be fine. Right,

0:17:04.680 --> 0:17:07.360
<v Speaker 2>just there's mercury, but there's yeah, but then if there's

0:17:07.359 --> 0:17:10.440
<v Speaker 2>so much mercury fish, but then the average American doesn't

0:17:10.440 --> 0:17:12.320
<v Speaker 2>eat enough fish to even get close to a mercury

0:17:12.400 --> 0:17:14.320
<v Speaker 2>level to worry about. And so if you're worried about

0:17:14.720 --> 0:17:18.199
<v Speaker 2>all of the micro nutrients are the things that the

0:17:18.280 --> 0:17:21.600
<v Speaker 2>environmental hazards, we're probably not even to a level. We

0:17:21.680 --> 0:17:25.000
<v Speaker 2>get into that because of that sticktuitiveness and that inability

0:17:25.080 --> 0:17:27.720
<v Speaker 2>to say I'm going to adopt a lifestyle instead of

0:17:27.720 --> 0:17:30.199
<v Speaker 2>a diet. But you're right, and also you know you're not.

0:17:30.560 --> 0:17:33.000
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I can I'm I'm looking at my office

0:17:33.000 --> 0:17:35.880
<v Speaker 2>at Arawon here in Santa Monica, and and I can

0:17:35.960 --> 0:17:38.119
<v Speaker 2>need as much arow and smoothies and take as much

0:17:38.119 --> 0:17:40.560
<v Speaker 2>seaweed as I want. But but I'm still not that

0:17:40.720 --> 0:17:42.680
<v Speaker 2>more than a quarter mile from the on ramp to

0:17:42.680 --> 0:17:45.040
<v Speaker 2>the four h five. So I'm probably breathing in too

0:17:45.080 --> 0:17:47.560
<v Speaker 2>much lead and break dust and Lord knows what else

0:17:47.600 --> 0:17:49.639
<v Speaker 2>that that I'm not gonna have to worry about if

0:17:49.640 --> 0:17:51.480
<v Speaker 2>i moved to Sardinia or Okinawa.

0:17:51.600 --> 0:17:56.680
<v Speaker 4>So so the environmental toxins are the early evidences. They're

0:17:56.680 --> 0:17:59.280
<v Speaker 4>implicated in Parkinson's and MS. We're not sure.

0:17:59.600 --> 0:18:01.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and that's what I wanted to do I asked about. Yeah,

0:18:02.000 --> 0:18:03.840
<v Speaker 2>a lot of a lot of MS data show there's

0:18:04.160 --> 0:18:08.520
<v Speaker 2>northern climates, industrial climates, especially that there is a there's

0:18:08.560 --> 0:18:10.760
<v Speaker 2>a little bit of a predisposition there that that isn't

0:18:10.800 --> 0:18:12.479
<v Speaker 2>necessarily genetic as you were.

0:18:13.080 --> 0:18:16.159
<v Speaker 4>It's interesting you mentioned this because I spent twenty years

0:18:16.600 --> 0:18:22.360
<v Speaker 4>in Montreal at McGill and the For one thing, there

0:18:22.400 --> 0:18:25.800
<v Speaker 4>was a lead smelting plant on the island in Montrealsen Island,

0:18:26.440 --> 0:18:29.399
<v Speaker 4>and the level of toxins in the air were so

0:18:29.600 --> 0:18:33.439
<v Speaker 4>high that at one point, my physician said, you know,

0:18:34.359 --> 0:18:36.600
<v Speaker 4>you could smoke a cigarette a day and it wouldn't

0:18:36.600 --> 0:18:39.360
<v Speaker 4>even make a dent in what you're getting in through

0:18:39.359 --> 0:18:39.920
<v Speaker 4>the air here.

0:18:40.359 --> 0:18:43.600
<v Speaker 2>Wow, and that's why you picked up smoking. Yeah, amazing,

0:18:44.920 --> 0:18:46.480
<v Speaker 2>that's the world. That's the lesson. The moral of the

0:18:46.480 --> 0:18:47.560
<v Speaker 2>story doesn't matter.

0:18:47.480 --> 0:18:51.040
<v Speaker 4>Actually from it. This is a bit of a diversion.

0:18:51.040 --> 0:18:56.600
<v Speaker 4>But from a neuroscientific standpoint, nicotine is possibly the ideal

0:18:56.680 --> 0:19:01.280
<v Speaker 4>drug because it can cause you you it can increase

0:19:01.400 --> 0:19:05.160
<v Speaker 4>memory capacity, it can increase focus and attention without giving

0:19:05.160 --> 0:19:07.920
<v Speaker 4>you the jitters the way too much coffee does. It's

0:19:07.960 --> 0:19:13.160
<v Speaker 4>not necessarily responsible for adverse heart events. It's the delivery

0:19:13.160 --> 0:19:16.240
<v Speaker 4>method that's the problem. It's the smoking that's the problem.

0:19:16.640 --> 0:19:20.720
<v Speaker 4>So some friends of mine have been taking nicotine gum

0:19:21.720 --> 0:19:23.200
<v Speaker 4>just now and then the way you would reach for

0:19:23.200 --> 0:19:27.640
<v Speaker 4>a cup of coffee. And I asked my neurologist about

0:19:27.640 --> 0:19:29.120
<v Speaker 4>this yesterday and he was all for it.

0:19:29.560 --> 0:19:32.920
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, yeah. I think I read, you know, way

0:19:32.960 --> 0:19:36.560
<v Speaker 2>back in medical school learning about schizophrenia, that that nicotine

0:19:36.640 --> 0:19:39.840
<v Speaker 2>has a unique position in the mind of a schizophrenic

0:19:39.880 --> 0:19:43.320
<v Speaker 2>that it actually helps sort of uh auto regulate some

0:19:43.400 --> 0:19:46.440
<v Speaker 2>of their you know, their their missed synapses, and that's

0:19:46.440 --> 0:19:50.200
<v Speaker 2>why so many, so many people with schizophrenia they tend

0:19:50.240 --> 0:19:53.280
<v Speaker 2>to smoke, almost in a chain smoking way.

0:19:54.359 --> 0:19:58.879
<v Speaker 4>I'm so glad you explain this to me. I know

0:19:59.000 --> 0:20:03.680
<v Speaker 4>somebody who was it's a frantic and who had smoked

0:20:03.920 --> 0:20:07.359
<v Speaker 4>two or three packs a day from the age of eleven. Wow,

0:20:08.680 --> 0:20:14.440
<v Speaker 4>And by age sixty, the cardiologist said you got to

0:20:14.480 --> 0:20:17.480
<v Speaker 4>give up smoking. And so the cardiology bought my friend

0:20:17.520 --> 0:20:20.440
<v Speaker 4>this special box. I don't know if you've seen these,

0:20:20.440 --> 0:20:22.080
<v Speaker 4>but it's got a timer on it and a motor

0:20:22.400 --> 0:20:24.399
<v Speaker 4>and you put the pack of cigarettes in the box

0:20:24.440 --> 0:20:26.760
<v Speaker 4>and the lid closes and you can't pry it open.

0:20:27.280 --> 0:20:29.639
<v Speaker 4>And then every thirty minutes or whatever it was it

0:20:29.720 --> 0:20:32.960
<v Speaker 4>was subscribed. Every forty the box opens and you can

0:20:33.000 --> 0:20:37.320
<v Speaker 4>take a cigarette out. And so my friend, who had schizophrenia,

0:20:38.040 --> 0:20:40.320
<v Speaker 4>every time the box opened would just grab a whole

0:20:40.359 --> 0:20:41.600
<v Speaker 4>fistful of cigarettes.

0:20:42.240 --> 0:20:43.719
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So I was gonna say it sounds like one

0:20:43.720 --> 0:20:46.040
<v Speaker 2>of your Stanford experiments you did as an undergrad, maybe

0:20:46.480 --> 0:20:48.879
<v Speaker 2>in the rat lab, having a little buzzer box. I

0:20:48.880 --> 0:20:52.120
<v Speaker 2>did some incentive coz that that's great. He figured out

0:20:52.119 --> 0:20:54.680
<v Speaker 2>how to out the out fox the fox.

0:20:55.040 --> 0:21:00.239
<v Speaker 4>But in fact my friend had a stroke and it

0:21:00.320 --> 0:21:03.120
<v Speaker 4>damaged a great about a third of my friend's brain

0:21:03.760 --> 0:21:06.399
<v Speaker 4>and my friend was you know, can still talk, but

0:21:06.800 --> 0:21:10.120
<v Speaker 4>they totally Cigarettes are completely out of the question now

0:21:10.160 --> 0:21:11.640
<v Speaker 4>and the schizophrenia has returned.

0:21:12.000 --> 0:21:44.159
<v Speaker 2>Well there you go. So talk to us about stroke

0:21:44.320 --> 0:21:46.800
<v Speaker 2>in aging and rewiring. And Jordan, I know you were

0:21:47.480 --> 0:21:50.919
<v Speaker 2>when we were talking about this. You you came across

0:21:50.920 --> 0:21:53.800
<v Speaker 2>some things that h Doctor Levitton had had brought up

0:21:54.280 --> 0:21:57.480
<v Speaker 2>in uh, because you know you've had I mean, first

0:21:57.480 --> 0:21:59.560
<v Speaker 2>of all, I didn't put your intro the fact that

0:21:59.560 --> 0:22:02.440
<v Speaker 2>that when Joni Mitchell is quoting what a great songwriter

0:22:02.520 --> 0:22:05.680
<v Speaker 2>and singer you are, and I mean that's pretty hard

0:22:05.920 --> 0:22:08.560
<v Speaker 2>to beat praise like that coming from Joni Mitchell. I

0:22:08.640 --> 0:22:12.480
<v Speaker 2>mean again, another Laurel Canyon resident and Canadian made it

0:22:12.520 --> 0:22:15.520
<v Speaker 2>down to Laurel Kenyon just Likedil Young at all. But yeah,

0:22:15.520 --> 0:22:18.760
<v Speaker 2>I mean, how does the brain tell me about stroke?

0:22:18.800 --> 0:22:22.159
<v Speaker 2>And let's just jump into music in that, because I

0:22:22.200 --> 0:22:26.120
<v Speaker 2>mean I cannot let you not talk about your work

0:22:26.119 --> 0:22:27.680
<v Speaker 2>in music in cognitive science.

0:22:28.240 --> 0:22:32.199
<v Speaker 4>Thank you. So as you know your listeners may not

0:22:32.320 --> 0:22:35.360
<v Speaker 4>know there are two kinds of stroke. There's a hemorrhagic

0:22:35.480 --> 0:22:38.760
<v Speaker 4>stroke where a blood vessel bursts and it bleeds through

0:22:38.760 --> 0:22:41.960
<v Speaker 4>your brain, or there's a chemic stroke where there's a

0:22:42.000 --> 0:22:47.040
<v Speaker 4>clot and either one can damage the brain. It damages

0:22:47.080 --> 0:22:50.800
<v Speaker 4>it in different ways. My understanding is that as chemic

0:22:50.840 --> 0:22:53.760
<v Speaker 4>strokes tend to be more localized, but it depends on

0:22:53.800 --> 0:22:56.080
<v Speaker 4>how far back then the blood vessel they are and

0:22:56.440 --> 0:22:59.399
<v Speaker 4>what they're feeding. I mean, it's hard to draw generalizations.

0:23:00.440 --> 0:23:03.480
<v Speaker 4>The problem with the brain bleed, though, if it's not caught,

0:23:03.760 --> 0:23:07.920
<v Speaker 4>is that then the blood just fills the cavity and

0:23:08.000 --> 0:23:11.000
<v Speaker 4>presses on the cerebral spinal fluid and all hell breaks loose.

0:23:11.560 --> 0:23:14.880
<v Speaker 4>So the way we treat stroke is, if you've got

0:23:14.920 --> 0:23:18.080
<v Speaker 4>risk factors, we either give you a blood thinner or

0:23:18.119 --> 0:23:21.720
<v Speaker 4>a blood clotter, and basically you get to choose which

0:23:21.760 --> 0:23:24.040
<v Speaker 4>way you want to die. Do you want to die

0:23:24.040 --> 0:23:28.320
<v Speaker 4>from a clot or because they can't treat both. Right,

0:23:28.960 --> 0:23:34.520
<v Speaker 4>But Joni had an aneurysm burst, as you know, in

0:23:34.560 --> 0:23:38.040
<v Speaker 4>twenty fifteen March, and she was in a coma for

0:23:38.080 --> 0:23:42.160
<v Speaker 4>three months, and when she got out of the hospital,

0:23:42.600 --> 0:23:46.840
<v Speaker 4>her neuro surgeon thought that there was no chance that

0:23:46.880 --> 0:23:50.960
<v Speaker 4>she would ever recover speech or movement, and so he

0:23:51.040 --> 0:23:54.120
<v Speaker 4>sent her home without any follow up care. I mean,

0:23:54.160 --> 0:23:56.439
<v Speaker 4>he wrote a prescription for twenty four hour nursing, but

0:23:56.480 --> 0:23:59.800
<v Speaker 4>nothing in terms of care. I figured it was a

0:23:59.840 --> 0:24:03.880
<v Speaker 4>lot cause, but I visited her, and I write about

0:24:03.880 --> 0:24:05.720
<v Speaker 4>this in my new book I Heard there was a

0:24:05.760 --> 0:24:06.399
<v Speaker 4>Secret chord.

0:24:06.640 --> 0:24:09.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, oh man, it just gives me chills to hear.

0:24:09.320 --> 0:24:11.760
<v Speaker 2>The title of that book one of the best songs

0:24:11.800 --> 0:24:14.399
<v Speaker 2>in the history of rock and roll.

0:24:15.119 --> 0:24:18.520
<v Speaker 4>I visited her two days after she got back home,

0:24:19.640 --> 0:24:22.960
<v Speaker 4>and you met with the nurses, and it was Yeah,

0:24:23.160 --> 0:24:27.000
<v Speaker 4>she couldn't talk, she couldn't walk, she couldn't express anything.

0:24:28.160 --> 0:24:30.480
<v Speaker 4>Do you want to drink of water? She couldn't nod

0:24:30.560 --> 0:24:34.640
<v Speaker 4>or shake, you know. But when music was coming from

0:24:34.640 --> 0:24:37.399
<v Speaker 4>the other room while the nurses were on break, something

0:24:37.440 --> 0:24:40.760
<v Speaker 4>in her kind of perked up, and I thought, well,

0:24:41.840 --> 0:24:44.560
<v Speaker 4>maybe the way to reach her is to play her

0:24:44.640 --> 0:24:47.960
<v Speaker 4>music that we know she likes. And she had invited

0:24:48.000 --> 0:24:51.800
<v Speaker 4>me to help her curate an album of her favorite

0:24:51.800 --> 0:24:55.600
<v Speaker 4>songs called Starbucks Artist's Choice, and I think there were

0:24:55.640 --> 0:24:59.160
<v Speaker 4>sixteen songs on it. We spent many hours listening through

0:24:59.160 --> 0:25:02.440
<v Speaker 4>her collection figuring out what should go on it, and

0:25:03.080 --> 0:25:08.560
<v Speaker 4>by definition, these were her favorite songs, and so I

0:25:08.640 --> 0:25:12.000
<v Speaker 4>played her the first cut on the album, and she

0:25:12.119 --> 0:25:15.520
<v Speaker 4>seemed to respond in a positive way, so the nurses

0:25:15.560 --> 0:25:18.439
<v Speaker 4>played her that album, you know, throughout the day for

0:25:18.480 --> 0:25:21.240
<v Speaker 4>the next two weeks. And we now know that listening

0:25:21.240 --> 0:25:26.320
<v Speaker 4>to music you like can increase dopamine. My lab was

0:25:26.400 --> 0:25:29.120
<v Speaker 4>the first to show that that dopamine is released by

0:25:29.119 --> 0:25:32.200
<v Speaker 4>pleasurable music, and we found the mechanism we found where

0:25:32.440 --> 0:25:36.919
<v Speaker 4>it's the limbic system, the nucleus succumbents the ventral tagmental area,

0:25:37.000 --> 0:25:40.440
<v Speaker 4>the same region that is active when you have an orgasm,

0:25:41.560 --> 0:25:44.440
<v Speaker 4>when you are hungry and you eat, when you're a

0:25:44.480 --> 0:25:47.119
<v Speaker 4>gambler and you win a bet, listen to music you like,

0:25:47.240 --> 0:25:51.080
<v Speaker 4>that same pleasure mechanism comes in. So it's affiliated, I

0:25:51.119 --> 0:25:53.680
<v Speaker 4>guess you say, with sex, drugs, and rock and roll.

0:25:54.320 --> 0:25:56.320
<v Speaker 2>And very white. I was going to say, but you know,

0:25:56.320 --> 0:25:59.440
<v Speaker 2>he transcends all of them except the dug part. Yeah

0:25:59.680 --> 0:26:01.440
<v Speaker 2>good lower d yes.

0:26:01.240 --> 0:26:02.960
<v Speaker 4>Yes, yes, it does.

0:26:03.280 --> 0:26:05.159
<v Speaker 2>Oh, well done, well done.

0:26:05.680 --> 0:26:11.159
<v Speaker 4>So dopamine. It also our allowed was the first to

0:26:11.200 --> 0:26:13.840
<v Speaker 4>show that we listen to music you like, your brain

0:26:13.880 --> 0:26:18.320
<v Speaker 4>produces its own opioids, its own internal analgesics. Dopamine does

0:26:18.320 --> 0:26:21.280
<v Speaker 4>different things in different parts of the brain and in

0:26:21.320 --> 0:26:23.840
<v Speaker 4>the limbic system it signals pleasure, but in the frontal

0:26:23.840 --> 0:26:29.560
<v Speaker 4>lobes it helps spur motivation, and in the basil ganglia

0:26:29.680 --> 0:26:33.119
<v Speaker 4>it helps to create smooth and continuous movements. The reason

0:26:33.160 --> 0:26:36.360
<v Speaker 4>Parkinson's patients have trouble walking is because the basil ganglia

0:26:36.760 --> 0:26:40.919
<v Speaker 4>dopamine circuits are degraded. But that dopamine was enough to

0:26:41.040 --> 0:26:44.919
<v Speaker 4>motivate her to want to get better, and so I

0:26:45.040 --> 0:26:52.080
<v Speaker 4>hired a team of speech therapists, physical therapists, occupational therapists,

0:26:52.080 --> 0:26:55.679
<v Speaker 4>and a neurologist to come to the house and within

0:26:56.560 --> 0:26:59.800
<v Speaker 4>two years we were able to go out to dinner together.

0:26:59.840 --> 0:27:02.760
<v Speaker 4>And then I think four years later, whatever it was,

0:27:02.840 --> 0:27:05.680
<v Speaker 4>she played a Newport folk festival. Maybe six years later.

0:27:05.720 --> 0:27:06.800
<v Speaker 4>I'm fuzzy on the dates.

0:27:07.040 --> 0:27:07.840
<v Speaker 2>That's about right.

0:27:08.359 --> 0:27:09.760
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, wow.

0:27:10.400 --> 0:27:13.720
<v Speaker 2>So do you think it's because of who she was

0:27:13.800 --> 0:27:17.560
<v Speaker 2>and what she did? Is her brain respond differently to

0:27:17.640 --> 0:27:21.320
<v Speaker 2>be a musical genius as she is to that or

0:27:21.359 --> 0:27:23.440
<v Speaker 2>in other words, as somebody was just reading me surgical

0:27:23.640 --> 0:27:26.359
<v Speaker 2>books while I was in a coma, would it, you know,

0:27:26.400 --> 0:27:28.159
<v Speaker 2>would it wake me up? Or would I respond to

0:27:28.240 --> 0:27:30.080
<v Speaker 2>music just because I'm a lover of it, not that

0:27:30.160 --> 0:27:31.080
<v Speaker 2>I'm a player? Of it.

0:27:31.400 --> 0:27:35.640
<v Speaker 4>So for the audience, Doctor Mills and are both research

0:27:35.720 --> 0:27:40.000
<v Speaker 4>scientists as well as writers. And the difficulty with research

0:27:40.119 --> 0:27:42.360
<v Speaker 4>is that no two brains are alike and knows who

0:27:42.359 --> 0:27:46.720
<v Speaker 4>brain injuries are alike. And so what we try to

0:27:46.800 --> 0:27:51.480
<v Speaker 4>do when I do my MRI studies fMRI studies brain scans,

0:27:52.480 --> 0:27:54.760
<v Speaker 4>I try to get twenty or thirty people and find

0:27:54.760 --> 0:27:58.040
<v Speaker 4>what's common to all of them, because one brain doesn't

0:27:58.040 --> 0:28:00.879
<v Speaker 4>really help you predict what another brain will do, but

0:28:00.960 --> 0:28:05.359
<v Speaker 4>the average is somewhat stable. So I don't know. I

0:28:05.400 --> 0:28:09.280
<v Speaker 4>can't know. It's it's unknowable whether Joni's brain was I mean,

0:28:09.320 --> 0:28:13.440
<v Speaker 4>obviously it was special, She's a genius. Was it special

0:28:13.560 --> 0:28:19.359
<v Speaker 4>in a neuroprotective way or in a neuroplastic way, We

0:28:19.440 --> 0:28:24.679
<v Speaker 4>don't know. David Crosby, who knew her wells, told me

0:28:24.840 --> 0:28:28.720
<v Speaker 4>that he thought that it was her recovery was unique

0:28:28.760 --> 0:28:33.720
<v Speaker 4>to her because she has such an indomitable spirit. Yeah,

0:28:33.760 --> 0:28:36.399
<v Speaker 4>And I mean, that's that's the Jonie. I know. She

0:28:36.600 --> 0:28:41.240
<v Speaker 4>is just fiercely in charge of her life and will

0:28:41.240 --> 0:28:44.400
<v Speaker 4>not take no for an answer. And that's you know,

0:28:44.440 --> 0:28:47.800
<v Speaker 4>you're getting back to aging and the Dylan Thomas quote

0:28:47.800 --> 0:28:51.320
<v Speaker 4>you started with, you know, I talked about conscientiousness for

0:28:51.480 --> 0:28:55.600
<v Speaker 4>sleep and diet, But the other see that's really important

0:28:55.640 --> 0:29:00.560
<v Speaker 4>is curiosity and curious people. That's the second most important

0:29:00.600 --> 0:29:04.920
<v Speaker 4>statistical factor in overall life satisfaction and longevity and health span.

0:29:05.360 --> 0:29:11.680
<v Speaker 4>Curious people are motivated to learn every day, and that

0:29:11.880 --> 0:29:15.160
<v Speaker 4>is neuroprotective because you're building up new brain circuits all

0:29:15.160 --> 0:29:19.560
<v Speaker 4>the time and reinforcing old ones, making connections between something

0:29:19.560 --> 0:29:23.080
<v Speaker 4>you just learned and something you knew before. And curious

0:29:23.080 --> 0:29:27.080
<v Speaker 4>people also have more friends because instead of trying to

0:29:27.120 --> 0:29:32.360
<v Speaker 4>be interesting, they're interested, and so it's much more fun

0:29:32.360 --> 0:29:34.560
<v Speaker 4>to be with a curious person at a dinner party

0:29:35.560 --> 0:29:37.920
<v Speaker 4>or a concert or wherever you are, because they're going

0:29:38.000 --> 0:29:40.920
<v Speaker 4>to keep asking you questions and it's you know, they

0:29:40.920 --> 0:29:43.840
<v Speaker 4>never get tired of it. Joni's like that, she's very,

0:29:43.920 --> 0:29:44.560
<v Speaker 4>very curious.

0:29:44.840 --> 0:29:47.520
<v Speaker 2>You brought up something I was thinking about in my

0:29:47.680 --> 0:29:50.800
<v Speaker 2>personal history recently, is that I was an okay baseball

0:29:50.800 --> 0:29:52.320
<v Speaker 2>player in high school. And I went to it a

0:29:52.360 --> 0:29:54.960
<v Speaker 2>fantastic high school. So there are a lot of much

0:29:54.960 --> 0:29:57.200
<v Speaker 2>better players than me, and I would get recruited every

0:29:57.240 --> 0:29:59.840
<v Speaker 2>once in a while. So love baseball, grip playing it.

0:30:00.200 --> 0:30:02.120
<v Speaker 2>Then you know, went to college, tried out for the

0:30:02.120 --> 0:30:05.080
<v Speaker 2>team at UCLA, and here I am as a physician

0:30:05.080 --> 0:30:06.920
<v Speaker 2>and not a major league baseball player. So we all

0:30:06.920 --> 0:30:09.080
<v Speaker 2>know how that story ended. And I really didn't pick

0:30:09.160 --> 0:30:12.080
<v Speaker 2>up a baseball for years. And then about six or

0:30:12.080 --> 0:30:15.320
<v Speaker 2>eight months ago, the Dodgers reached out to me and said, hey,

0:30:15.360 --> 0:30:18.040
<v Speaker 2>doctor Mills, we'd love to have you start for show.

0:30:18.040 --> 0:30:20.800
<v Speaker 2>Heey tani. It didn't actually quite go like that. Actually was, Oh,

0:30:21.320 --> 0:30:24.520
<v Speaker 2>we wanted to honor you to throw out the first pitch.

0:30:24.560 --> 0:30:25.880
<v Speaker 4>You got to throw out the first pitch.

0:30:25.960 --> 0:30:28.160
<v Speaker 2>My god did I got to the a first pitch

0:30:28.200 --> 0:30:30.440
<v Speaker 2>and it was the first day that sho he actually

0:30:30.480 --> 0:30:33.440
<v Speaker 2>started June twenty second, twenty twenty five.

0:30:33.680 --> 0:30:36.400
<v Speaker 4>Now let me back up. Were you a pitcher, No.

0:30:36.480 --> 0:30:39.080
<v Speaker 2>I was a first basement. I'm left handed and I

0:30:39.120 --> 0:30:41.480
<v Speaker 2>had an okay arm, but a much better bat, and

0:30:41.520 --> 0:30:45.040
<v Speaker 2>so I always played first base. And I hadn't played

0:30:45.040 --> 0:30:47.240
<v Speaker 2>baseball for you know, really since high school. Maybe a

0:30:47.280 --> 0:30:49.400
<v Speaker 2>little pickup softball here and there. But when they called

0:30:49.440 --> 0:30:51.880
<v Speaker 2>me and said, doctor Mills, we want you to be

0:30:51.960 --> 0:30:54.640
<v Speaker 2>out there to celebrate Men's Health Month as the Men's

0:30:54.680 --> 0:30:57.840
<v Speaker 2>Health Champion in Los Angeles, I said, of course, and

0:30:57.880 --> 0:31:00.760
<v Speaker 2>then my competitive brain said, I actin you'd probably pick

0:31:00.800 --> 0:31:03.240
<v Speaker 2>up a baseball and throw it again. And so I

0:31:03.320 --> 0:31:07.680
<v Speaker 2>went to this local pitching hitting academy down on in

0:31:07.720 --> 0:31:10.120
<v Speaker 2>Sawtel in that sort of that West LA neighborhood, really

0:31:10.120 --> 0:31:13.160
<v Speaker 2>cool place, and I was, by far by, you know,

0:31:13.200 --> 0:31:15.960
<v Speaker 2>an order of forty years older than anybody else that

0:31:16.080 --> 0:31:18.320
<v Speaker 2>was training there. But I would get on the mountain

0:31:18.360 --> 0:31:20.280
<v Speaker 2>and I would throw a bucket of balls and it

0:31:20.360 --> 0:31:24.800
<v Speaker 2>was the most meditative state I've been in, whether I'm writing,

0:31:24.840 --> 0:31:28.640
<v Speaker 2>whether I'm reading, whether I'm operating. It just it triggered

0:31:28.680 --> 0:31:31.480
<v Speaker 2>something in me that I hadn't really thought about, just

0:31:31.480 --> 0:31:33.880
<v Speaker 2>a repetition of throwing one hundred balls until my arm

0:31:34.360 --> 0:31:36.760
<v Speaker 2>was ragged, just to be able to get in shape

0:31:36.760 --> 0:31:38.680
<v Speaker 2>to throw one pitch, you know, in front of an

0:31:38.720 --> 0:31:42.880
<v Speaker 2>audience at Dodger Stadium. But it I have to get

0:31:42.880 --> 0:31:44.960
<v Speaker 2>back there because it just it. So what was that?

0:31:45.080 --> 0:31:47.240
<v Speaker 2>What do you do when you haven't done something for

0:31:47.360 --> 0:31:49.760
<v Speaker 2>years that you used to love and then just put

0:31:49.760 --> 0:31:53.240
<v Speaker 2>your childhood dreams on hold? What triggered in my brain

0:31:53.280 --> 0:31:56.360
<v Speaker 2>that made me feel so good standing on that mound

0:31:56.400 --> 0:31:58.640
<v Speaker 2>and just throwing the ball into a backstop.

0:31:58.880 --> 0:32:02.360
<v Speaker 4>That's a great question, a great story. I'll start with,

0:32:02.800 --> 0:32:04.680
<v Speaker 4>how is it you were able to throw after all

0:32:04.720 --> 0:32:05.320
<v Speaker 4>those years?

0:32:05.640 --> 0:32:08.120
<v Speaker 2>Well, it was funny. The owner of the place, who

0:32:08.160 --> 0:32:10.920
<v Speaker 2>I love, he was great because, you know, again I

0:32:10.920 --> 0:32:12.440
<v Speaker 2>was the oldest guy there. I told him my story,

0:32:12.480 --> 0:32:14.640
<v Speaker 2>told him. He was like, ah, that's cool. So he

0:32:14.680 --> 0:32:16.920
<v Speaker 2>actually started. He started. He brought out a speed gun.

0:32:17.000 --> 0:32:18.760
<v Speaker 2>I was doing fine. I was throwing. You know, I

0:32:18.760 --> 0:32:22.520
<v Speaker 2>was from probably about eighty percent strikes and the first

0:32:22.560 --> 0:32:25.200
<v Speaker 2>time I threw I was in the in the low fifties.

0:32:25.560 --> 0:32:27.840
<v Speaker 2>But by the time it was game day, he brought

0:32:27.880 --> 0:32:30.160
<v Speaker 2>out a speed gun and I was up into into

0:32:30.200 --> 0:32:32.560
<v Speaker 2>the low sixty mile an hour range, which was you know,

0:32:32.600 --> 0:32:35.360
<v Speaker 2>for a ten year old little leaguer, that's pretty good material.

0:32:35.400 --> 0:32:37.120
<v Speaker 2>You know, that's pretty good stuff. I could I could

0:32:37.120 --> 0:32:40.240
<v Speaker 2>go into Little League and throw at that. But but

0:32:40.280 --> 0:32:41.760
<v Speaker 2>I was doing pretty well. I mean, I still keep

0:32:41.760 --> 0:32:45.120
<v Speaker 2>myself in shape, just not not in the in that sense.

0:32:45.160 --> 0:32:48.160
<v Speaker 2>But it was very gratifying to even in those probably

0:32:48.240 --> 0:32:50.640
<v Speaker 2>eight weeks or so that I trained for this, to

0:32:50.680 --> 0:32:52.880
<v Speaker 2>see some improvement. Does that make a difference if I

0:32:52.960 --> 0:32:55.560
<v Speaker 2>was actually okay at it versus just being terrible.

0:32:55.720 --> 0:32:58.760
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, because the way we move, is that we have

0:32:58.840 --> 0:33:02.440
<v Speaker 4>to engage a circuit in the brain that's called the

0:33:02.480 --> 0:33:06.560
<v Speaker 4>motor planning area pre motor area, and it works in

0:33:06.680 --> 0:33:09.600
<v Speaker 4>tandem with the cerebellum and other structures. But the idea

0:33:09.600 --> 0:33:11.880
<v Speaker 4>is that any movement, whether it's throwing a ball or

0:33:11.920 --> 0:33:18.280
<v Speaker 4>catching a ball, or playing a guitar or a piano, dancing, typing,

0:33:18.680 --> 0:33:22.520
<v Speaker 4>these are require motor action plans, is what we call them.

0:33:22.560 --> 0:33:24.720
<v Speaker 4>Your brain has to come up with a plan about

0:33:24.720 --> 0:33:27.240
<v Speaker 4>what to do and what order. And if you look

0:33:27.280 --> 0:33:33.160
<v Speaker 4>at touch typists who are and you shoot them in

0:33:33.240 --> 0:33:36.880
<v Speaker 4>high resolution video and then slow it down, their fingers

0:33:36.880 --> 0:33:39.200
<v Speaker 4>and wrists are actually a few letters ahead of where

0:33:39.240 --> 0:33:41.800
<v Speaker 4>they need to be because they're anticipating it. That's the

0:33:42.080 --> 0:33:46.760
<v Speaker 4>depth of the motor action plan. Or guitarists, pianist violinists too.

0:33:47.200 --> 0:33:50.640
<v Speaker 4>So the thing to know about memory is that anything

0:33:50.680 --> 0:33:54.200
<v Speaker 4>that gets in there that had an emotional packed an

0:33:54.200 --> 0:33:58.960
<v Speaker 4>emotional wallop for you first kiss, your first time you

0:33:59.040 --> 0:34:04.080
<v Speaker 4>drove a car, your wedding, or you know, more ordinary

0:34:04.120 --> 0:34:07.960
<v Speaker 4>things like practicing over and over again, that's in there.

0:34:08.040 --> 0:34:10.280
<v Speaker 4>That's in your brain. It's just a matter of finding

0:34:10.280 --> 0:34:12.640
<v Speaker 4>the circuit and pulling it out again. And we've seen

0:34:12.640 --> 0:34:17.000
<v Speaker 4>this in every domain that if you reached some level

0:34:17.040 --> 0:34:22.080
<v Speaker 4>of expertise through your motor system, say it took you

0:34:22.160 --> 0:34:24.239
<v Speaker 4>ten years to be able to throw like you did,

0:34:24.320 --> 0:34:26.319
<v Speaker 4>or ten years to play an instrument like you did.

0:34:26.800 --> 0:34:28.799
<v Speaker 4>If you drop it for thirty years and you come back,

0:34:28.880 --> 0:34:31.440
<v Speaker 4>it's not going to take you ten years again. Might

0:34:31.480 --> 0:34:33.880
<v Speaker 4>not even take you ten weeks. You get back a

0:34:33.880 --> 0:34:37.120
<v Speaker 4>lot faster because you just have to reactivate those circuits

0:34:37.200 --> 0:34:41.360
<v Speaker 4>that are already in there. Now. The euphoria that you felt,

0:34:41.640 --> 0:34:48.600
<v Speaker 4>that's probably a combination of rediscovering something from your childhood

0:34:49.640 --> 0:34:52.239
<v Speaker 4>that was an ambition of yours, Yes it was, and

0:34:52.280 --> 0:34:54.879
<v Speaker 4>realizing that you're still pretty good at it, and then

0:34:54.920 --> 0:34:58.480
<v Speaker 4>it puts you in touch with that motion was like

0:34:58.640 --> 0:35:03.960
<v Speaker 4>Proost's Madeline or a particular smell activating a memory. Yeah,

0:35:04.040 --> 0:35:07.000
<v Speaker 4>and suddenly you're ten years old again and your care

0:35:07.120 --> 0:35:10.520
<v Speaker 4>free and you don't have blood on your hands and.

0:35:10.840 --> 0:35:17.360
<v Speaker 2>Wow, oh Dan, that's so that's exactly right. Yeah. Ah,

0:35:17.560 --> 0:35:19.319
<v Speaker 2>So what is that with you and music? Because you,

0:35:19.440 --> 0:35:21.759
<v Speaker 2>I mean, you just keep you just keep doing it.

0:35:21.800 --> 0:35:25.399
<v Speaker 2>So how do people is it is music? Something? Because

0:35:25.600 --> 0:35:29.040
<v Speaker 2>other than you know people that you know that that

0:35:29.160 --> 0:35:32.120
<v Speaker 2>can't play anymore for arthritis. You know Les Paul towards

0:35:32.120 --> 0:35:36.279
<v Speaker 2>the end of his career, Peter Frampton recently. You know

0:35:36.320 --> 0:35:43.520
<v Speaker 2>people Alan, Yeah, yeah, you know what is it about

0:35:43.640 --> 0:35:46.120
<v Speaker 2>music that allows you to keep coming back to that? Well?

0:35:46.200 --> 0:35:50.759
<v Speaker 2>Is there is there a dopamine russia euphoria that keeps

0:35:50.800 --> 0:35:53.880
<v Speaker 2>some people going, especially people like you? That is you

0:35:53.920 --> 0:35:56.880
<v Speaker 2>know that both and you know, one of the leading

0:35:57.120 --> 0:36:02.640
<v Speaker 2>cognitive neuroscientists but also a recorded producer and player. You know,

0:36:02.680 --> 0:36:06.400
<v Speaker 2>how does your brain work? I guess is the the's.

0:36:05.680 --> 0:36:08.399
<v Speaker 4>The I wish I knew that, Yeah, I wish I knew.

0:36:10.120 --> 0:36:14.960
<v Speaker 4>I think well, I mean, getting back to the statistical trends,

0:36:15.080 --> 0:36:18.440
<v Speaker 4>people who learn to play an instrument at any age

0:36:19.280 --> 0:36:24.440
<v Speaker 4>report overall life satisfaction, and playing an instrument is neuroprotective.

0:36:25.080 --> 0:36:29.120
<v Speaker 4>Becoming a world class musician takes more training than becoming

0:36:29.160 --> 0:36:34.160
<v Speaker 4>an astronaut or a neurosurgeon. It's tens of thousands of hours,

0:36:34.480 --> 0:36:38.560
<v Speaker 4>and the neural capacity you build up, the neural reserve,

0:36:39.000 --> 0:36:42.640
<v Speaker 4>cognitive reserve, is enormous and it doesn't matter when you start.

0:36:42.680 --> 0:36:45.200
<v Speaker 4>I know people who started playing an instrument when they

0:36:45.200 --> 0:36:49.040
<v Speaker 4>were sixty or seventy and they seem to reap the

0:36:49.080 --> 0:36:54.319
<v Speaker 4>benefits of the neuroprotective effects. So anything that you can

0:36:54.360 --> 0:36:56.719
<v Speaker 4>do that will build up new circuits is good. And

0:36:56.800 --> 0:36:59.880
<v Speaker 4>the thing about music is not all the songs that

0:36:59.880 --> 0:37:02.200
<v Speaker 4>they are to write have already been written, and it

0:37:02.239 --> 0:37:06.040
<v Speaker 4>has all these parameters of tambre and rhythm and melody.

0:37:07.040 --> 0:37:09.360
<v Speaker 4>And for people who like music and who like playing

0:37:09.800 --> 0:37:12.799
<v Speaker 4>or writing music, most of the players I know will

0:37:12.800 --> 0:37:16.520
<v Speaker 4>never play a song the same way twice. I'm up

0:37:16.520 --> 0:37:19.880
<v Speaker 4>in Northern California now because I came up to see

0:37:20.040 --> 0:37:22.680
<v Speaker 4>my friend Rodney Crowell play a concert in Napa at

0:37:22.680 --> 0:37:25.520
<v Speaker 4>the Uptown Theater and he's got an all new band.

0:37:25.640 --> 0:37:29.160
<v Speaker 4>He's seventy five years old. He's playing songs that he

0:37:29.400 --> 0:37:34.080
<v Speaker 4>has been playing for fifty years. And I see him

0:37:34.120 --> 0:37:38.640
<v Speaker 4>several times a year. Every performance is different, and that's neuroprotective,

0:37:39.120 --> 0:37:40.880
<v Speaker 4>and that's what keeps him coming back. Can I do

0:37:40.960 --> 0:37:46.239
<v Speaker 4>this better? And just to make a kind of nonlinear

0:37:46.280 --> 0:37:49.600
<v Speaker 4>analogy to that, you know, can I do this better?

0:37:50.120 --> 0:37:52.680
<v Speaker 4>You remember the old Who's on first routine by Abbot

0:37:52.719 --> 0:37:53.320
<v Speaker 4>and Costello.

0:37:53.520 --> 0:37:54.640
<v Speaker 2>Oh my god, of course I do.

0:37:54.920 --> 0:37:57.279
<v Speaker 4>You can do a deep dive on YouTube and there

0:37:57.280 --> 0:38:00.759
<v Speaker 4>are about forty or fifty versions of it. They were

0:38:00.880 --> 0:38:05.360
<v Speaker 4>constantly tinkering, trying to make it a little better. Sometimes

0:38:05.360 --> 0:38:08.480
<v Speaker 4>they failed. Well, it wasn't better, but the fact is

0:38:08.520 --> 0:38:11.640
<v Speaker 4>they kept working at it so that they could riff

0:38:11.680 --> 0:38:16.160
<v Speaker 4>on it. And what I get out of music. I'm

0:38:16.400 --> 0:38:20.600
<v Speaker 4>just now at the point where Joni's been a mentor

0:38:20.680 --> 0:38:24.040
<v Speaker 4>to me in my songwriting, in my singing, as has Rodney.

0:38:24.680 --> 0:38:27.600
<v Speaker 4>And I've been writing songs since I was twenty. I'm

0:38:27.640 --> 0:38:31.400
<v Speaker 4>sixty eight now, but I feel like I've finally, in

0:38:31.440 --> 0:38:34.239
<v Speaker 4>the last year or two, gotten to the point where

0:38:34.280 --> 0:38:37.759
<v Speaker 4>I can do something that stands up, that holds up.

0:38:38.120 --> 0:38:40.560
<v Speaker 4>And you know, when Jonie said she liked the songs,

0:38:42.120 --> 0:38:43.160
<v Speaker 4>doesn't get better than that.

0:38:43.400 --> 0:38:45.680
<v Speaker 2>I mean, Stevie Wonder gave you some props that ain't

0:38:45.719 --> 0:38:46.319
<v Speaker 2>bad he did.

0:38:46.440 --> 0:38:49.120
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, we worked on a record together. He's amazing.

0:38:49.600 --> 0:38:52.799
<v Speaker 2>Oh again, another genius that just yeah. I think there

0:38:53.280 --> 0:38:56.000
<v Speaker 2>must be a something about geniuses that you guys are

0:38:56.000 --> 0:38:58.879
<v Speaker 2>on this wavelength where you know, you get each other

0:38:58.960 --> 0:39:01.080
<v Speaker 2>without you know, some X factor.

0:39:02.840 --> 0:39:05.200
<v Speaker 4>I would not put myself in the category of Joony

0:39:05.280 --> 0:39:07.440
<v Speaker 4>or CD or in the category of genius, but I

0:39:07.480 --> 0:39:11.480
<v Speaker 4>think in the way that No. Two brains are alike.

0:39:11.600 --> 0:39:14.280
<v Speaker 4>No two musicians are alike, No two geniuses are alike.

0:39:14.920 --> 0:39:17.600
<v Speaker 4>And so it's not what's in common, but what's different

0:39:17.640 --> 0:39:18.560
<v Speaker 4>that's so fascinating.

0:39:18.960 --> 0:39:48.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, wow, you know. So one of the things we

0:39:48.960 --> 0:39:50.600
<v Speaker 2>love to do in the show is talk a little

0:39:50.600 --> 0:39:53.400
<v Speaker 2>bit about you know, what's fact and what's fiction and

0:39:53.400 --> 0:39:56.280
<v Speaker 2>what's hype. And you did a great job and successful

0:39:56.320 --> 0:39:58.840
<v Speaker 2>aging about and I think we covered the diet, nutrition,

0:39:58.920 --> 0:40:01.000
<v Speaker 2>to eat, move, sleep, right, those are the fundamentals that

0:40:01.000 --> 0:40:04.120
<v Speaker 2>we all talk about. But there are you know, you

0:40:04.160 --> 0:40:07.320
<v Speaker 2>did talk about there might be some hope for supplements,

0:40:07.360 --> 0:40:11.440
<v Speaker 2>you know, neurodegenerative aging and slowing down the process. And

0:40:11.520 --> 0:40:13.759
<v Speaker 2>so at the time of that book, which is a

0:40:13.760 --> 0:40:16.320
<v Speaker 2>couple of years old, now you know you were maybe

0:40:16.360 --> 0:40:20.719
<v Speaker 2>mentioning something. But what what is out there that and

0:40:20.719 --> 0:40:23.120
<v Speaker 2>and you know, again I'm a huge skeptic of supplements.

0:40:23.120 --> 0:40:25.359
<v Speaker 2>I'll just put that out there and uh and again

0:40:25.400 --> 0:40:27.360
<v Speaker 2>in a very common sense way, because I think usually

0:40:28.640 --> 0:40:31.520
<v Speaker 2>you know, there's something else that triggers, whether it's you know,

0:40:31.560 --> 0:40:34.120
<v Speaker 2>it's it's the seed in the grape, or it's the

0:40:34.160 --> 0:40:36.480
<v Speaker 2>skin and it's not necessarily as verit well, or it's

0:40:36.560 --> 0:40:39.680
<v Speaker 2>there's not. And then, for example, and I'm asking, I'm

0:40:39.680 --> 0:40:42.520
<v Speaker 2>gonna I'm gonna rant before I ask you a question, Dan,

0:40:42.600 --> 0:40:44.440
<v Speaker 2>but I will say, you know, the thing I get

0:40:44.480 --> 0:40:46.320
<v Speaker 2>a lot is this, you know, the idea of n

0:40:46.360 --> 0:40:50.399
<v Speaker 2>A D plus right or the uh sh right, thank you?

0:40:50.480 --> 0:40:53.480
<v Speaker 2>And and the problem with it is is that is

0:40:53.560 --> 0:40:55.680
<v Speaker 2>that it It's all right, we have an E rating, Jordan.

0:40:55.840 --> 0:40:58.359
<v Speaker 2>It's okay. We can say, we can say the S word.

0:40:58.400 --> 0:41:02.240
<v Speaker 2>I promise. Yeah, my mom's listening. It's that fucking bullshit

0:41:02.440 --> 0:41:06.160
<v Speaker 2>mad oh boy, come on, let her rip now, letter rip.

0:41:06.400 --> 0:41:09.000
<v Speaker 2>But uh but yeah, I mean, and yet everybody is

0:41:09.120 --> 0:41:11.480
<v Speaker 2>you know, I mean, I just I did a surgery

0:41:11.480 --> 0:41:14.080
<v Speaker 2>in Beverly Hills earlier. And uh you know there's three

0:41:14.120 --> 0:41:18.120
<v Speaker 2>clinics on on four corners that that are selling drops

0:41:18.160 --> 0:41:21.160
<v Speaker 2>and oral and IV even I mean, shouldn't I I

0:41:21.200 --> 0:41:23.440
<v Speaker 2>should have stopped and gotten an IV of n AD plus.

0:41:23.440 --> 0:41:25.480
<v Speaker 4>And it took us forty four minutes for you to

0:41:25.480 --> 0:41:26.520
<v Speaker 4>talk about getting oral.

0:41:27.080 --> 0:41:30.480
<v Speaker 2>Oh look at this guy. Gosh with the jokes, Jordan.

0:41:30.520 --> 0:41:31.960
<v Speaker 2>I don't need to write material anymore.

0:41:32.040 --> 0:41:33.719
<v Speaker 4>Tony cars and golf swing.

0:41:34.239 --> 0:41:37.480
<v Speaker 2>Oh God, thank you, look at you. That's right now.

0:41:37.520 --> 0:41:39.920
<v Speaker 2>We now we're going to really walk into the e rating.

0:41:40.080 --> 0:41:41.319
<v Speaker 2>God damn, this guy is good.

0:41:41.400 --> 0:41:44.640
<v Speaker 4>We earn it now, we gotta earn it. Come on, well,

0:41:44.680 --> 0:41:47.160
<v Speaker 4>so here here, I'm going to be dogmatic here. There

0:41:47.239 --> 0:41:52.719
<v Speaker 4>is no such thing as alternative medicine. Okay, there's medicine

0:41:52.920 --> 0:41:56.080
<v Speaker 4>and then there's everything else. Medicine are things that have

0:41:56.200 --> 0:41:59.960
<v Speaker 4>been shown to work. Now I would call vitamin D meta.

0:42:00.360 --> 0:42:01.759
<v Speaker 4>Even though you can get it over the counter, it

0:42:01.760 --> 0:42:05.040
<v Speaker 4>doesn't mean it's not medicine, aspirins medicine. If it's been

0:42:05.160 --> 0:42:09.560
<v Speaker 4>proven to work, it's medicine. If we aren't sure whether

0:42:09.600 --> 0:42:13.640
<v Speaker 4>it works or not, it's alternative medicine. The whole category

0:42:13.719 --> 0:42:16.520
<v Speaker 4>is deceiving. It should not be called alternative medicine. It

0:42:16.560 --> 0:42:18.680
<v Speaker 4>should be called we don't know if it's medicine or

0:42:18.680 --> 0:42:19.160
<v Speaker 4>not yet.

0:42:19.560 --> 0:42:20.960
<v Speaker 2>Oh my god, that is great.

0:42:21.960 --> 0:42:26.120
<v Speaker 4>And so people get seduced by these stories of you know,

0:42:26.520 --> 0:42:30.319
<v Speaker 4>n A D plus. Another dogmatic rule is if the

0:42:30.400 --> 0:42:35.680
<v Speaker 4>person who's recommending it is selling it, particularly in the

0:42:35.719 --> 0:42:40.960
<v Speaker 4>case of a physician, don't buy it. So Stephen Gunderson

0:42:41.200 --> 0:42:46.080
<v Speaker 4>keeps clogging up my YouTube feed with crazy claims about

0:42:46.080 --> 0:42:48.520
<v Speaker 4>how you should never eat tomatoes and they're poisoning you,

0:42:48.560 --> 0:42:53.279
<v Speaker 4>and you got to get your supplements. And then there's

0:42:53.360 --> 0:42:58.760
<v Speaker 4>that guy at Harvard who's the NAD plus guy, Sinclear

0:42:59.480 --> 0:43:06.839
<v Speaker 4>Davidson Claire. Yeah, he for one thing, you know, an

0:43:06.920 --> 0:43:09.520
<v Speaker 4>end of one that is experimenting on yourself is not

0:43:10.080 --> 0:43:15.399
<v Speaker 4>the plural of anecdote, is not data well done. And

0:43:16.280 --> 0:43:18.160
<v Speaker 4>you know, I remember talking to the head of the

0:43:18.239 --> 0:43:20.600
<v Speaker 4>FDA at the time that I wrote the book about

0:43:20.719 --> 0:43:23.360
<v Speaker 4>and a couple of other you know, like Harvard Nutrition

0:43:23.440 --> 0:43:28.640
<v Speaker 4>Department people, not David Sinclair, and I say, what's the

0:43:28.680 --> 0:43:30.680
<v Speaker 4>deal with this? And they said, well, it seems to

0:43:30.719 --> 0:43:32.960
<v Speaker 4>show some benefits in mice. And I said, well, would

0:43:33.000 --> 0:43:35.640
<v Speaker 4>you take it? And the head of the FDA said no.

0:43:35.719 --> 0:43:37.840
<v Speaker 4>I said why not? He says, because I am not

0:43:37.920 --> 0:43:42.239
<v Speaker 4>a mouse, right, And not to drive the point home

0:43:42.320 --> 0:43:46.280
<v Speaker 4>too hard, but about ninety seven percent of the stuff

0:43:46.280 --> 0:43:50.040
<v Speaker 4>that works in mice does not work in humans, and

0:43:50.120 --> 0:43:53.520
<v Speaker 4>a high percentage of that is actually harmful to humans. Yeah,

0:43:53.560 --> 0:43:56.239
<v Speaker 4>mice are not just little humans in fuzzy suits.

0:43:56.280 --> 0:43:59.400
<v Speaker 2>That's right. Yeah. Imuring data is so hard to extrapolate

0:43:59.480 --> 0:44:02.040
<v Speaker 2>just because the I span is you know, it's accelerated.

0:44:02.080 --> 0:44:04.920
<v Speaker 2>But but you know, then just go back to secaramices

0:44:04.960 --> 0:44:08.440
<v Speaker 2>and looking at yeast and yeah, we have gene homologies,

0:44:08.440 --> 0:44:11.439
<v Speaker 2>but the organism is so different it's it's hard to extrapolate.

0:44:11.480 --> 0:44:14.080
<v Speaker 2>And I think that's that's fair. I mean, and by

0:44:14.080 --> 0:44:16.359
<v Speaker 2>the same token, then you know, should I be throwing

0:44:16.400 --> 0:44:18.840
<v Speaker 2>out all my seed oils because you know in the

0:44:18.880 --> 0:44:22.080
<v Speaker 2>seed oil data is such as such a when you

0:44:22.120 --> 0:44:24.239
<v Speaker 2>look at the amount of seed oil that you have

0:44:24.280 --> 0:44:26.560
<v Speaker 2>to ingest, whether you're a mouse or a human, to

0:44:26.560 --> 0:44:30.759
<v Speaker 2>show any kind of worry for aunca genesis, it's you know,

0:44:30.840 --> 0:44:33.480
<v Speaker 2>you'd be having gallons of it a day and time.

0:44:33.600 --> 0:44:37.040
<v Speaker 4>Was Michael Pollen on this just you know, eat a

0:44:37.160 --> 0:44:40.880
<v Speaker 4>variety of foods and eat the food itself. There was

0:44:40.920 --> 0:44:45.200
<v Speaker 4>this whole big thing with fish oil. You may remember,

0:44:45.320 --> 0:44:47.319
<v Speaker 4>Oh yeah, of course we were all supposed to take

0:44:47.360 --> 0:44:50.720
<v Speaker 4>fish oil tablets. And then he realized because omega threes

0:44:50.920 --> 0:44:53.840
<v Speaker 4>were present in the fatty fish like mackerel and salmon,

0:44:53.920 --> 0:44:57.600
<v Speaker 4>and the more omega threes the better. But when you

0:44:57.680 --> 0:45:00.920
<v Speaker 4>extract the omega three from the rest of the micro

0:45:01.040 --> 0:45:05.000
<v Speaker 4>nutrients contained in the fish and the other chemicals, they

0:45:05.040 --> 0:45:05.720
<v Speaker 4>cause cancer.

0:45:05.960 --> 0:45:06.399
<v Speaker 2>That's right.

0:45:06.640 --> 0:45:08.680
<v Speaker 4>You have to get them as part of a whole diet. So,

0:45:09.040 --> 0:45:12.120
<v Speaker 4>you know, I think Michael's right, eat a variety of foods,

0:45:12.200 --> 0:45:17.480
<v Speaker 4>more plants than than you probably think is normal. Right,

0:45:17.920 --> 0:45:20.920
<v Speaker 4>And but you know, enjoy y know, Michael has Michael

0:45:20.960 --> 0:45:23.200
<v Speaker 4>and I went out got an ice cream cone recently.

0:45:23.480 --> 0:45:26.359
<v Speaker 4>I love So you know it's not you can't never

0:45:26.440 --> 0:45:28.920
<v Speaker 4>eat ice cream, but moderation.

0:45:29.360 --> 0:45:30.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. But and I think you said that because that

0:45:30.920 --> 0:45:33.160
<v Speaker 2>goes back to one of the pillars of longevity is

0:45:33.239 --> 0:45:35.799
<v Speaker 2>friendship and enjoying doing what you do. And so if

0:45:35.800 --> 0:45:39.720
<v Speaker 2>you enjoy going and getting in a d plus ivs,

0:45:39.840 --> 0:45:42.120
<v Speaker 2>then you should do that. But but if you enjoy

0:45:42.680 --> 0:45:45.319
<v Speaker 2>you know, a little salt and straw or or your

0:45:45.360 --> 0:45:48.800
<v Speaker 2>local your local ice cream vendor, then then you should,

0:45:49.160 --> 0:45:50.640
<v Speaker 2>you know, you should have a little ice cream every

0:45:50.640 --> 0:45:53.680
<v Speaker 2>now and again. Wow, I love this. I mean, you're

0:45:54.520 --> 0:45:56.839
<v Speaker 2>a wealth of information, Jordan, you had some you had

0:45:56.840 --> 0:45:58.399
<v Speaker 2>some thoughts or what did you What do you want

0:45:58.440 --> 0:46:02.239
<v Speaker 2>to talk about with Daniel before we give him the

0:46:02.320 --> 0:46:05.919
<v Speaker 2>kicker about what the secrets to his longevity are.

0:46:06.320 --> 0:46:08.080
<v Speaker 3>Oh, this is such an unfair thing.

0:46:08.120 --> 0:46:09.399
<v Speaker 2>A lob in at the very end.

0:46:09.440 --> 0:46:11.520
<v Speaker 3>Now, I'm so sorry for what I'm about to do.

0:46:11.600 --> 0:46:14.640
<v Speaker 3>But I mean music is the greatest passion of my life,

0:46:14.640 --> 0:46:16.240
<v Speaker 3>and one of the things I love the most about

0:46:16.239 --> 0:46:18.000
<v Speaker 3>it is sort of the mystery behind it. And I've

0:46:18.040 --> 0:46:20.680
<v Speaker 3>heard you speak about how we see the remains of

0:46:20.760 --> 0:46:23.920
<v Speaker 3>Neanderthal communities and some of the oldest items there are

0:46:24.040 --> 0:46:27.640
<v Speaker 3>musical instruments, and from they've spoken about how the parts

0:46:27.640 --> 0:46:30.799
<v Speaker 3>of the brain that process music are evolutionarily older and

0:46:30.840 --> 0:46:32.879
<v Speaker 3>more resistant to brain damage. I just wanted to ask

0:46:32.920 --> 0:46:35.000
<v Speaker 3>you more about if you could shed a little light

0:46:35.000 --> 0:46:36.960
<v Speaker 3>on the mystery of music. Why it's been this thing

0:46:37.000 --> 0:46:39.120
<v Speaker 3>that's been a part of our about being a human

0:46:39.320 --> 0:46:40.480
<v Speaker 3>since the earliest days.

0:46:40.520 --> 0:46:43.000
<v Speaker 4>What it does, what it gives to us, we don't know.

0:46:43.640 --> 0:46:47.120
<v Speaker 4>We can speculate. It seems as though music preceded language,

0:46:47.320 --> 0:46:51.399
<v Speaker 4>and it was good for emotional communication when you didn't

0:46:51.440 --> 0:46:53.640
<v Speaker 4>need to refer to concrete objects in the world, but

0:46:53.680 --> 0:46:56.080
<v Speaker 4>you wanted to communicate in emotional state. And we still

0:46:56.120 --> 0:46:58.240
<v Speaker 4>do that. We do it with prosity. If I'm asking

0:46:58.280 --> 0:47:02.279
<v Speaker 4>a question, my sentence goes up at the end, and

0:47:02.320 --> 0:47:04.560
<v Speaker 4>if I'm making a statement, the sentence goes down at

0:47:04.600 --> 0:47:07.560
<v Speaker 4>the end, and I can change my tambo. If I'm angry,

0:47:07.640 --> 0:47:09.560
<v Speaker 4>I get like that all raspy, you know. I mean

0:47:09.560 --> 0:47:12.720
<v Speaker 4>these are all musical components. Think of Louis Armstrong's raspy

0:47:12.719 --> 0:47:16.239
<v Speaker 4>trumpet or something where his raspy voice, although he does

0:47:16.280 --> 0:47:18.000
<v Speaker 4>it in a way that it doesn't sound angry, but

0:47:18.000 --> 0:47:20.000
<v Speaker 4>it's still exciting because.

0:47:19.719 --> 0:47:22.239
<v Speaker 2>It's called Ella. Fitzgerald, he just had Ella right by the.

0:47:26.920 --> 0:47:28.600
<v Speaker 4>I know Ella was a patient at UCLA.

0:47:29.120 --> 0:47:29.640
<v Speaker 2>That's right.

0:47:30.040 --> 0:47:38.480
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, So I think ultimately it's because music isn't constrained

0:47:38.520 --> 0:47:41.399
<v Speaker 4>and meeting the way language is. When when I when

0:47:41.400 --> 0:47:44.160
<v Speaker 4>I sang language, I've got a pair of reading glasses.

0:47:44.760 --> 0:47:46.839
<v Speaker 4>You may have an image of them, and I can

0:47:46.840 --> 0:47:50.000
<v Speaker 4>hold them up and now you're seeing him, But there's

0:47:50.040 --> 0:47:54.359
<v Speaker 4>still reading glasses. They're not a fern, you know, They're

0:47:54.360 --> 0:47:59.520
<v Speaker 4>not a bottle of snapple. They're glasses. But there is

0:47:59.560 --> 0:48:02.600
<v Speaker 4>no mew musical phrase that I can play that will

0:48:02.600 --> 0:48:05.200
<v Speaker 4>convey a physical object in the world, or even a

0:48:05.280 --> 0:48:11.200
<v Speaker 4>concept like justice or jealousy or love. I mean, we

0:48:11.360 --> 0:48:14.959
<v Speaker 4>may take from certain musical gestures those feelings, but they're

0:48:15.000 --> 0:48:17.720
<v Speaker 4>not intrinsic to the music. They're not in the notes.

0:48:17.800 --> 0:48:21.560
<v Speaker 4>It's our interpretation of them. And so music's ambiguity is

0:48:21.600 --> 0:48:25.000
<v Speaker 4>its power. It can project onto the screen of your

0:48:25.040 --> 0:48:28.560
<v Speaker 4>mind and your emotions anything you wanted to, and you

0:48:28.600 --> 0:48:31.160
<v Speaker 4>can find your own story in it. Getting back to Jony,

0:48:31.239 --> 0:48:35.799
<v Speaker 4>I remember the first time I heard Jony's song Amelia

0:48:36.480 --> 0:48:40.120
<v Speaker 4>off of Hezira about looking for love at all the

0:48:40.160 --> 0:48:44.680
<v Speaker 4>wrong places. Basically, I just thought, oh my god. You know,

0:48:44.800 --> 0:48:48.640
<v Speaker 4>the music, even without the lyrics, made things clearer to me,

0:48:50.080 --> 0:48:51.719
<v Speaker 4>and so I think that's it.

0:48:51.760 --> 0:48:55.719
<v Speaker 2>In a nutshell, the blues are blue for a reason. Yeah,

0:48:56.160 --> 0:48:58.200
<v Speaker 2>all right, So I gotta ask you one thing before

0:48:58.200 --> 0:49:00.640
<v Speaker 2>I let you go, because I know you're crazy busy

0:49:01.080 --> 0:49:03.960
<v Speaker 2>as always, but but I always want to leave our

0:49:04.000 --> 0:49:07.120
<v Speaker 2>audience with what one thing do you have to do

0:49:07.200 --> 0:49:10.440
<v Speaker 2>every day to make you you because of what you're

0:49:10.480 --> 0:49:13.360
<v Speaker 2>able to accomplish in a day? Is it coffee? Set, meditation?

0:49:13.640 --> 0:49:14.080
<v Speaker 1>Ah?

0:49:14.160 --> 0:49:18.400
<v Speaker 2>All right? How much? How much? And how often?

0:49:20.320 --> 0:49:23.640
<v Speaker 4>I sleep seven and a half or eight hours every

0:49:23.719 --> 0:49:26.960
<v Speaker 4>night and I take a five minute power nap.

0:49:27.400 --> 0:49:27.719
<v Speaker 2>Love it?

0:49:28.760 --> 0:49:31.400
<v Speaker 3>You still you sleep more than most people I feel like,

0:49:31.560 --> 0:49:33.040
<v Speaker 3>and you still do all that you do.

0:49:33.120 --> 0:49:33.960
<v Speaker 2>That's incredible.

0:49:35.040 --> 0:49:37.120
<v Speaker 4>Well, I pretty much have to play music every day.

0:49:37.160 --> 0:49:39.000
<v Speaker 4>If I don't play music, I get grumpy.

0:49:39.560 --> 0:49:41.759
<v Speaker 2>I love that. Yeah, I have to listen to music

0:49:41.800 --> 0:49:44.799
<v Speaker 2>every day for sure. Otherwise if I played it too much,

0:49:44.800 --> 0:49:47.200
<v Speaker 2>everybody else would be grumpy around me. But if I

0:49:47.239 --> 0:49:51.240
<v Speaker 2>listen to it, that's a whole other thing. Well, doctor Levitton,

0:49:51.320 --> 0:49:53.560
<v Speaker 2>this has been beyond and honor to have you on

0:49:53.600 --> 0:49:56.799
<v Speaker 2>the show and sharing what you know about music, about

0:49:56.840 --> 0:50:00.200
<v Speaker 2>cognitive science, and and then you know, in terms of

0:50:00.200 --> 0:50:03.160
<v Speaker 2>our our listeners out here, you've got to check out

0:50:03.280 --> 0:50:05.880
<v Speaker 2>not only his books, but his music as well on

0:50:06.000 --> 0:50:10.840
<v Speaker 2>Daniel leviton dot com albums and just just it's just

0:50:10.880 --> 0:50:13.120
<v Speaker 2>a beautiful I can't even you know. Again, I don't

0:50:13.120 --> 0:50:15.520
<v Speaker 2>want to say, because I know you're friends with Steely Dan,

0:50:15.600 --> 0:50:17.880
<v Speaker 2>but I get a serious Steely Dan vibe from some

0:50:17.920 --> 0:50:20.919
<v Speaker 2>of your music. It's just that melifluous. It's just it's

0:50:20.920 --> 0:50:25.560
<v Speaker 2>so it's just captivating between your voice and just and

0:50:25.600 --> 0:50:27.879
<v Speaker 2>your and whoever plays bass for you. My god, it's

0:50:27.960 --> 0:50:31.800
<v Speaker 2>just wow. I know you've got an amazing ensemble.

0:50:32.400 --> 0:50:34.520
<v Speaker 4>Well, I play bass on most of my recording.

0:50:34.600 --> 0:50:36.919
<v Speaker 2>Are you kidding me? That's you too? Kid?

0:50:37.040 --> 0:50:37.279
<v Speaker 4>God?

0:50:38.040 --> 0:50:40.280
<v Speaker 2>Okay, well that was not even trying to be flattering.

0:50:40.320 --> 0:50:44.200
<v Speaker 4>But Victor Wooten plays on one song on Turnaround, and

0:50:45.880 --> 0:50:50.279
<v Speaker 4>Steve Bailey plays on the heather song and then on

0:50:50.320 --> 0:50:53.360
<v Speaker 4>the most steely Danish song, which is headed for the Fall.

0:50:53.800 --> 0:50:55.600
<v Speaker 2>Yes, it's a guy named.

0:50:56.920 --> 0:50:59.960
<v Speaker 4>Andy hess Rose and Cash's bass play.

0:51:00.200 --> 0:51:04.320
<v Speaker 2>Oh my god, I'm telling you though, it's uh. It's everybody. Please,

0:51:05.320 --> 0:51:06.960
<v Speaker 2>even if you don't read his books, you got to

0:51:06.960 --> 0:51:07.800
<v Speaker 2>listen to his music.

0:51:08.239 --> 0:51:09.799
<v Speaker 4>That's very uh.

0:51:10.320 --> 0:51:13.080
<v Speaker 2>You delivered on the mail Room. I'm so grateful to

0:51:13.120 --> 0:51:16.640
<v Speaker 2>you for your time. And then the listeners are also grateful. Jordan.

0:51:17.200 --> 0:51:20.440
<v Speaker 2>Let's let her rip and get him onto his next gig.

0:51:20.800 --> 0:51:23.320
<v Speaker 2>Thanks so much, Dan, appreciate you coming on the Mailroom.

0:51:23.400 --> 0:51:25.360
<v Speaker 4>Thanks for having me the checks in the mail a.

0:51:34.200 --> 0:51:39.080
<v Speaker 2>Let's talk about it. Let's talk about the man hero.

0:51:42.400 --> 0:51:47.280
<v Speaker 2>Let's talk about it. Let's talk about the man Hero.

0:51:50.640 --> 0:51:54.839
<v Speaker 2>Let's talk about it. Let's talk about.

0:51:57.520 --> 0:52:00.000
<v Speaker 1>The mail Room with doctor Jesse Mills was a produce

0:52:00.000 --> 0:52:03.920
<v Speaker 1>fuction of iHeartRadio. It was executive produced by Jordan Runtogg.

0:52:04.520 --> 0:52:07.920
<v Speaker 1>It was edited, mixed, and mastered by Beheid Fraser, and

0:52:07.960 --> 0:52:11.160
<v Speaker 1>the theme was provided by long Transit. If you liked

0:52:11.160 --> 0:52:14.080
<v Speaker 1>what you heard, please subscribe and leave a review. For

0:52:14.200 --> 0:52:17.680
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0:52:22.680 --> 0:52:26.640
<v Speaker 1>This program is intended for educational and informational purposes only.

0:52:27.160 --> 0:52:31.040
<v Speaker 1>It is not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis,

0:52:31.160 --> 0:52:34.880
<v Speaker 1>or treatment. Consult your healthcare provider for any medical or

0:52:34.880 --> 0:52:38.560
<v Speaker 1>other related questions or concerns. The views and discussions aired

0:52:38.600 --> 0:52:41.120
<v Speaker 1>on this podcast or those of doctor Mills and do

0:52:41.200 --> 0:52:45.240
<v Speaker 1>not represent the official positions of UCLA or UCLA Health