Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and welcome to will Gate f Daily
Speaker 1: with Meet your Girl, Danielle Moody, recording back live from
Speaker 1: the Brooklyn Silarium. Folks, First of all, I want to
Speaker 1: come back and say thank you so very much for
Speaker 1: all of your birthday wishes, well wishes, um. It has
Speaker 1: meant a lot to me. This has been a fantastic,
Speaker 1: fantastic week off. As always, I say to every single
Speaker 1: one of you that it's important to recharge, it's important
Speaker 1: to rest. I found myself a bit feeling a bit
Speaker 1: guilty um at the beginning of last week when I
Speaker 1: was deciding to take off for my birthday, and then
Speaker 1: recognizing why not. We all deserve rest, we deserve joy,
Speaker 1: we deserve to tap out, um, and so I appreciate
Speaker 1: each and every one of you for allowing me to
Speaker 1: do so. I hope that you enjoyed the conversations that
Speaker 1: we put in place while we were out. But now
Speaker 1: we are back, and let me start off with this.
Speaker 1: You know, I have not been following to the greatest
Speaker 1: degree all of the details of the Kyle Rittenhouse trial.
Speaker 1: And it is for a number of reasons. One because
Speaker 1: I know how it's going to end. Armed angry white
Speaker 1: men in America get away with everything. They get away
Speaker 1: with lynching, they get away with physical abuse, they get
Speaker 1: away with harm, they get away with intimidation and threatening.
Speaker 1: You know, we never talk when we speak about the
Speaker 1: KKK and we speak about Jim Crow, we never talk
Speaker 1: about the domestic terrorist element of it. We never talk
Speaker 1: about what it means to purposefully decide like Kyle Rittenhouse did,
Speaker 1: to sling an AAR fifteen across his shoulder and intimidate
Speaker 1: those that were going by peacefully. Wanting to add the
Speaker 1: for you know, accountability for our police officers, that you
Speaker 1: couldn't just murder someone in broad daylight and think that
Speaker 1: you were going to get away with it. But alas
Speaker 1: every single one of these cases show us one thing
Speaker 1: and one thing only. The justice system was not built
Speaker 1: for black and brown people. It was not built for
Speaker 1: low income people. It was built for the Kyle Rittenhouses
Speaker 1: of the world. It was built for the Dylan Roofs
Speaker 1: of the world. It was built for people who were
Speaker 1: going to get a pat on the back from police
Speaker 1: officers and offering of water a It's okay, son. From
Speaker 1: the beginning of this trial and as of this recording,
Speaker 1: we don't know the verdict yet as of this recording,
Speaker 1: the jury is still deliberating. But one thing that we
Speaker 1: know to be true is that the gun charge was
Speaker 1: thrown out right, So you know that Kyle Rittenhouse and
Speaker 1: this case has already allowed for the fact that if
Speaker 1: you live in the state, if you don't live in
Speaker 1: a state that has gun permits, that you can do
Speaker 1: whatever the hell you want. That what that judge just
Speaker 1: did was allowed now for all of the copycats to
Speaker 1: decide that they too are going to arm themselves, drive
Speaker 1: across state lines and do the work of law enforcement,
Speaker 1: that they too get to play cop, they get to
Speaker 1: murder people with impunity and possibly get off, more likely
Speaker 1: get off. So that's number one. Number two, the judge
Speaker 1: was clearly so incredibly hostile towards the prosecution from the jump,
Speaker 1: not even being able to refer to the people who
Speaker 1: lost their lives into the one who did survive and
Speaker 1: was able to testify who himself had a gun, but
Speaker 1: then said that he's not that type of person, that
Speaker 1: he wasn't going to use it, that there was another way.
Speaker 1: And so even in that exchange right between the defense
Speaker 1: attorneys and the third assailant, the third victim, excuse me,
Speaker 1: the third victim whose life was not taken. You could
Speaker 1: see America write a snapshot. You have those that are
Speaker 1: gun carriers, that are gun owners who subscribe to the law,
Speaker 1: who are not doing so because they are out trying
Speaker 1: to play army or g I Joe, or who are
Speaker 1: just a white supremacist on the hunt for their next victim. No,
Speaker 1: there are in fact gun owners in this country who
Speaker 1: want to abide by the rule of law but also
Speaker 1: believe that they should have the ability to protect themselves.
Speaker 1: They don't do so as a threat. You know, the
Speaker 1: other day, I was home out east on Long Island
Speaker 1: and visiting my family, and I'm noticing and this is
Speaker 1: something that I never noticed before when I was growing up,
Speaker 1: so I believe that it is new. I see all
Speaker 1: of these pickup trucks like these, you know, four by
Speaker 1: four or I don't even know what you call those cars.
Speaker 1: But anyway, the pickup trucks with kicker is on the
Speaker 1: back of them with AR fifteen rifles that say come
Speaker 1: and take it. Right. The sticker in and of itself
Speaker 1: is a threat, right, It's to signify that the person
Speaker 1: driving the vehicle is armed. And ready to use it
Speaker 1: and you come and take it. There is this toxic
Speaker 1: masculinity that is intertwined with this rights, this battle over
Speaker 1: gun rights in this country. You have those that are
Speaker 1: on the radical right that believe that there should be
Speaker 1: no background checks, no waiting period, no nothing. You can
Speaker 1: get an AR fifteen faster than any woman in this country,
Speaker 1: and especially now we'll be able to get an abortion right.
Speaker 1: You can take somebody's life right with an AR fifteen,
Speaker 1: no background check, no nothing. And they think that one
Speaker 1: of those things is murder right and the other is
Speaker 1: following the constitution. The hypocrisy, it is not lost on me,
Speaker 1: and it shouldn't be lost on any of us. But
Speaker 1: when I look at Kyle Rittenhouse, when I looked at
Speaker 1: his bullshit testimony on the stand, and again I say
Speaker 1: I was not following this with great eyes. And the
Speaker 1: reason is, and I tweeted it yesterday because I actually
Speaker 1: care about my mental health. And this is the difference
Speaker 1: between Danielle from a couple of years ago and Danielle now.
Speaker 1: And this is why I offer to all of you,
Speaker 1: all of the time to take a break so that
Speaker 1: you don't have a breakdown. I remember following George Zimmerman's trial,
Speaker 1: because at that point, and this is back when in
Speaker 1: twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen, that I believed still right. This
Speaker 1: is only six seven years ago, but I believed still
Speaker 1: at that moment in time, in our justice system, even
Speaker 1: given all of the past cases that I had seen,
Speaker 1: I believe that there was no way, there was no
Speaker 1: way that this grown man was going to murder a
Speaker 1: child who was armed with nothing more than an Arizona
Speaker 1: iced tea and a bag of skittles. That there was
Speaker 1: no way that our justice system was going to put
Speaker 1: the dead child on trial. And it was after that case,
Speaker 1: and after the not guilty for George Zimmerman, that I
Speaker 1: lost every single little strand of hope that I had
Speaker 1: in this country. Because if you can justify the murdyr
Speaker 1: not even by a police officer, but by a random white,
Speaker 1: fucking vigilante on the street, if that can be just
Speaker 1: a five, then there is no hope for the forgetting
Speaker 1: rid of qualified immunity for police officers. There is no
Speaker 1: hope in you you will have a once in a
Speaker 1: millennium trial like Derek Chauvin right where it's just so
Speaker 1: heinous that we must do something because millions of people
Speaker 1: left their homes in the middle of a pandemic to
Speaker 1: protest against what we all witnessed collectively a murder in
Speaker 1: broad daylight at the hands of an unrelenting police officer.
Speaker 1: So something had to be done in that case. But
Speaker 1: for the rest of them, right, I wonder sometimes what
Speaker 1: would have happened if there had been video of George Zimmerman.
Speaker 1: What if we weren't taking his word for it, just
Speaker 1: the word of some random white guy who was a
Speaker 1: want to be cop, who was a want to be
Speaker 1: neighborhood watch person and wanted to feel big, bad and strong,
Speaker 1: because it's this small, fragile white ego, right that what
Speaker 1: would have happened? And frankly, you know, I don't even
Speaker 1: want to say that we got lucky with George Floyd,
Speaker 1: and I say that with all dripping with sarcasm, trust
Speaker 1: and understand that that it was because of Darnella Frasier.
Speaker 1: It was because of all of the witnesses and bystanders,
Speaker 1: including young children, that Derek Chauvin is in jail. But
Speaker 1: it had it been left to the police report, had
Speaker 1: it been left to just hearsay without video evidence, where
Speaker 1: do you think Derek Chauvin would be. He'd probably be
Speaker 1: someplace with a promotion, because he had been consistently promoted
Speaker 1: over the course of his time in the police department.
Speaker 1: So here we have now fast forward, not even a
Speaker 1: decade removed from the murder of treyvon Martin, not even
Speaker 1: you know, a little over a year plus a year
Speaker 1: and a half since the murder of George Floyd. And
Speaker 1: here we are. We got multiple cases. Right now. You
Speaker 1: have the trial of those who murdered Ahmad Aubrey saying
Speaker 1: that they were trying to make a citizen's arrest because
Speaker 1: white people feel that if they don't like a black
Speaker 1: person in their space, in their face, that they can
Speaker 1: just kill them, that they can corner you, run us
Speaker 1: down like fucking animals and do what they will. Because again,
Speaker 1: without the public outrage and outcry, we would have taken
Speaker 1: and by we, I mean America would have taken again
Speaker 1: what the police officers wrote down. Even though those fucking
Speaker 1: brothers were covered in blood, they were allowed to go
Speaker 1: home that day because we believe whiteness above all else.
Speaker 1: So no, I'm not spending my energy sitting in front
Speaker 1: of the television taking consistent notes watching how our injustice
Speaker 1: system ruins the lives of so many black and brown men,
Speaker 1: women and children, and uplifts the lives of white murderers,
Speaker 1: known murderers. Cutlon Rittenhouse was out drinking beers in a bar.
Speaker 1: He wasn't even romanded to prison, seen as a threat
Speaker 1: to society over the last year. No, he was at home,
Speaker 1: he was hanging out, he was kicking at It is
Speaker 1: amazing to me. And I know that I say this often,
Speaker 1: the grace and the patience and the loving highness that
Speaker 1: the black community shows this country, because I got to
Speaker 1: tell you there are days when I do not have
Speaker 1: that strength to muster, and on those days, I stay
Speaker 1: the fuck home, Because I got to tell you that
Speaker 1: when I think just about the last four years, when
Speaker 1: I think about the fact that I believe America to
Speaker 1: be a just volcano that is simmering right, bubbling up
Speaker 1: these different bubble points, just waiting to erupt, they have
Speaker 1: the audacity to call out the National Guard with Kyle Writtenhouse.
Speaker 1: You wouldn't need the National Guard if we actually believed
Speaker 1: in our justice system, and we don't even question that, right,
Speaker 1: Why do you need to call the police? Oh? Because
Speaker 1: it's black people that are so fucking violent, or an
Speaker 1: entire white supremist injustice system that we know that we
Speaker 1: cannot trust, and yet you don't see us popping off
Speaker 1: on a day to day basis against this oppressive system
Speaker 1: that literally tries to murder us each and every day,
Speaker 1: whether it's a cop pulling somebody over on a highway,
Speaker 1: a white vigilante deciding to run somebody down, the dismissiveness,
Speaker 1: or the constant calling of police by the Karens. Even
Speaker 1: if you are asleep in your own bed, like Brianna Taylor,
Speaker 1: even if you are in your own home, you can
Speaker 1: be gunned down. So there is no safe space. And
Speaker 1: I want people to think about that about if you
Speaker 1: are not black or brown or from a marginalized community,
Speaker 1: think about what it means to be in your home,
Speaker 1: to be in your skin, and know that there is
Speaker 1: no safe space for you to exist in that At
Speaker 1: any moment, someone who doesn't like the way that you look,
Speaker 1: doesn't like how loud your music is, doesn't like the
Speaker 1: way that you speak, doesn't want your presence, can take
Speaker 1: you out and there will be no justice to follow.
Speaker 1: That's what it's like to be black and Brown in America.
Speaker 1: It's amazing that we can find joy. And that's why
Speaker 1: I say what supremacy is not going to take my
Speaker 1: focus and attention away from me? All day every day,
Speaker 1: I do my work, I do my research and my analysis.
Speaker 1: But do you know where my focus and my center
Speaker 1: is in my friends, in my family and my loved ones.
Speaker 1: That's where I have moved to in these days. I
Speaker 1: used to stay in the state aid of rage, and
Speaker 1: what I realize is just how unhealthy and toxic it was,
Speaker 1: because that's what they want. They want me fearful, they
Speaker 1: want me small, they want me to believe that I
Speaker 1: have no access and no rights. But even in the
Speaker 1: midst of the most cruel and unjust system of slavery,
Speaker 1: my ancestors were jumping brooms to commemorate their weddings. We're
Speaker 1: creating loving families and bonds and rituals, even if by
Speaker 1: day they're being lashed and beaten and raped. They refuse
Speaker 1: to have the entirety of their humanity stripped from them.
Speaker 1: That is what I call generational strength. So these cases
Speaker 1: will continue to happen, and once this case is done,
Speaker 1: there will be several more. For every single headline that
Speaker 1: we all collectively know understand that there are hundreds that
Speaker 1: we will never and so do your best to put
Speaker 1: your focus and your energy where it is needed. And
Speaker 1: again that does not mean not to tap in, but
Speaker 1: it means to understand and know when to tap out.
Speaker 1: Because I'm choosing in these days not to fight fire
Speaker 1: with fire, because I refuse to burn out. But I'm
Speaker 1: going to fight their hate and their fire and their
Speaker 1: vituol with my unrelenting joy, and I hope that you
Speaker 1: all choose to do the same. Coming up next is
Speaker 1: my conversation with our in house doctor, doctor Jonathan Metzel,
Speaker 1: where we will talk about what else but the failings
Speaker 1: of the Democratic Party and whether or not we've lost
Speaker 1: the midterm elections before they've even started. Folks, you know
Speaker 1: that when it is a Wednesday, I'm always so happy
Speaker 1: to be joined by our in house doctor, doctor Jonathan Metzel,
Speaker 1: who runs us through the gamut of COVID and democratic
Speaker 1: messaging and why, why why we may be headed off
Speaker 1: of a cliff, you know, the one that I'm trying
Speaker 1: I constantly scream about on a regular basis, Jonathan. So Democrats,
Speaker 1: we finally got an infrastructure bill passed I don't want
Speaker 1: to breathe over that and think that it wasn't a
Speaker 1: big deal. It was what seemed like months of negotiations
Speaker 1: in order to get this bipartisan bill done. To me,
Speaker 1: to be honest, I could give a damn about whether
Speaker 1: it was bipartisan or not. I wanted it to be progressive.
Speaker 1: I wanted it to be as big as the New Deal.
Speaker 1: I wanted it to matter to the American people that
Speaker 1: risk their lives in a pandemic to vote for Joe
Speaker 1: Biden and Kamala Harris to get things done, to switch
Speaker 1: over from the Trump nightmare into a better future. What
Speaker 1: are your feelings about where we have landed right now
Speaker 1: with this administration, given that both the president and the
Speaker 1: vice president's numbers polling numbers not great. Democrats as a whole,
Speaker 1: they're polling numbers not great, and as we get ready
Speaker 1: to change the calendar year, we know that we are
Speaker 1: revving up for midterm elections. Oh man, where am I
Speaker 1: going to start here? I mean, we really have a
Speaker 1: lot to talk about. I mean, so I'll just say
Speaker 1: a couple things. First of all, I'm doing a focus
Speaker 1: group project across the South right now, interviewing people about
Speaker 1: the stimulus. Right, So this is not the infrastructure. And
Speaker 1: as you know, I have strong opinions that they should
Speaker 1: have passed the damn infrastructure three months ago, but the stimulus.
Speaker 1: And the thing is, I've interviewed tons of people who
Speaker 1: are conservative who are here and I'm doing most of
Speaker 1: the interviews in Kentucky and Tennessee. And the kind of
Speaker 1: standard interview is either I got money from the stimulus,
Speaker 1: but that's what tanked the economy and so I'm against
Speaker 1: the whole thing. Or I lost my job for four months.
Speaker 1: The stimulus got me through, but people are getting addicted
Speaker 1: to federal money and I'm against the stimulus. In other words,
Speaker 1: I've done like hundreds of interviews now where people are.
Speaker 1: They actually hate the Democrats for the free money that
Speaker 1: they gave them. And so I think that's important for
Speaker 1: two reasons. Number one is, don't tell me that passing
Speaker 1: an infrastructure bill now without messaging is going to make
Speaker 1: any difference. It's not going to make any difference, I'm unfortunately.
Speaker 1: And so when I see that the Democrats are going
Speaker 1: to run on the infrastructure bill, I'm like, no, don't
Speaker 1: do that without without without shaping the narrative, just because
Speaker 1: just telling people you're giving them in this economy at
Speaker 1: this moment is not a winning argument for a lot
Speaker 1: of people. And number two is I realized there's a
Speaker 1: lot of underlying ideologies. You know, it was pretty racist.
Speaker 1: A lot of the stuff like people would say, oh,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm getting back on my feet, but those
Speaker 1: other people who are having twelve kids, they're getting addicted
Speaker 1: to federal money. The language of addiction goes back to
Speaker 1: like the welfare queen blah blah blah, that kind of thing.
Speaker 1: But leaving that aside, which of course you can't, the
Speaker 1: point is also the Democrats gave nobody an alternative narrative.
Speaker 1: They didn't frame the narrative. They were just like, here's money,
Speaker 1: because it's good, and don't you want money? So the
Speaker 1: Republicans are great at like no matter what it is,
Speaker 1: and usually it's like here's a bowl of like shit stew,
Speaker 1: but right, But what they're doing is they're saying, here's
Speaker 1: the narrative, you can understand it. Democrats are like, well,
Speaker 1: of course, of course you want healthcare because we're all
Speaker 1: human and you're going to figure that on your own.
Speaker 1: So the issue is what I saw even with free
Speaker 1: money from the government when people needed it, without shaping
Speaker 1: the narrative of what that meant. It actually it didn't.
Speaker 1: It didn't make a difference. It opened up for all
Speaker 1: the other crap. And I feel like we're doing the
Speaker 1: same thing with the infrastructure, which is yes, it gave
Speaker 1: people something to run on. Now. Of course, as you know,
Speaker 1: I think we should have passed the damn thing three
Speaker 1: months ago so we could have shaped the narrative. But
Speaker 1: now we passed it at a time where we're behind
Speaker 1: the eight ball, and so I have strong opinions about
Speaker 1: how we could be messaging in swing states, and let
Speaker 1: me just say, it's not. It's not what we're doing now.
Speaker 1: So I'm I mean, of course you're it's good to
Speaker 1: be nervous. I'm glad like you and I have a
Speaker 1: lot of company in the nervous category right now. But
Speaker 1: people should be nervous because even at this moment where
Speaker 1: we're doing something good, we're not shaping the narrative. And
Speaker 1: I think that's that's a major mistake. Again, let me
Speaker 1: ask you this so in these conversations, because I'm blown away,
Speaker 1: first of all, that even when you give people shit
Speaker 1: for free, that that the people that you are talking
Speaker 1: to are aggravated by getting their money right, because this
Speaker 1: is what it is when you got the bid stimulus,
Speaker 1: that is your return tax dollars that you work for
Speaker 1: getting it back, as opposed to it going to provide
Speaker 1: tax breaks to the rich. So I'm confused about how
Speaker 1: many people were in economic downturns. Right. We saw lines
Speaker 1: of people wrapped around food pantries for miles and miles
Speaker 1: at a time. We saw millions of people lose their jobs.
Speaker 1: So just clarify for me, you know, how is it
Speaker 1: that these people I mean, like what I'm hearing, Jonathan,
Speaker 1: I guess with the folks that you interview, you know,
Speaker 1: across the rust belt around the country, in southern places,
Speaker 1: is that they really just genuinely are willing to die
Speaker 1: of whiteness, like it doesn't matter. Like is there anything
Speaker 1: that you are hearing that would lend you to believe
Speaker 1: that there is a narrative that Democrats can offer that
Speaker 1: isn't just going to have these people cut off their
Speaker 1: nose despite their face. Because if I'm saying to you,
Speaker 1: you need help, and here is the federal government to
Speaker 1: help you, but you are more concerned with being a
Speaker 1: racist and making sure that no one else provides help.
Speaker 1: There's no narrative I'm offering you other than oh, the
Speaker 1: only the only people getting the economic stimulus are white people,
Speaker 1: because you guys are deserving and no one else is
Speaker 1: going to get anything. And then they would come running
Speaker 1: out and probably throw a parade for Biden. I mean,
Speaker 1: our goal is to win elections, and to win elections,
Speaker 1: you've got to convince the people in the middle and
Speaker 1: solidify your base right and so are if we just thought, oh,
Speaker 1: everybody's fixed in their racist ways, which they are, we
Speaker 1: you know we were not going to So our goal
Speaker 1: is to win elections, and so how do we address
Speaker 1: our core base right and particularly right now, particularly voters
Speaker 1: of color. You know, Democrats are at risk of selling
Speaker 1: them out, to be honest, So how do you do that?
Speaker 1: But also, and there are a lot it's not just
Speaker 1: it's not just one race of people. There are a
Speaker 1: lot of people who are in the middle, who are
Speaker 1: worried about inflation, who are worried about the economy, all
Speaker 1: this kind of stuff. So how do you solidify that? Well,
Speaker 1: Number one, you have one coherent party narrative. You don't
Speaker 1: have seventy the way the Democrats do, right now, that's
Speaker 1: number one. But number two is you kind of anticipate,
Speaker 1: You kind of anticipate some of this stuff with themes
Speaker 1: I mean I'm seeing this with I mean, we're going
Speaker 1: to lose abortion now. It seems like a gun deal.
Speaker 1: But if you ask people, does a woman have a
Speaker 1: right to an abortion or if you ask people to
Speaker 1: do a woman and her doctor have the right to
Speaker 1: make a decision within the privacy of the doctor's exam
Speaker 1: room that works best for the women the second question,
Speaker 1: eighty percent of the people will agree with the second question,
Speaker 1: even if thirty percent of people will agree with the
Speaker 1: first question. Right. In other words, the way you frame
Speaker 1: this stuff really shapes that you have to understand. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: half the country they care about autonomy and liberty and
Speaker 1: personal decision and so how you frame it matters. And
Speaker 1: it's the same with free money, Believe it or not.
Speaker 1: Free money has a really complicated history, as does free healthcare.
Speaker 1: Well that's what I found in my research because it
Speaker 1: ties into government networks and r all these kind of things.
Speaker 1: But the problem is, if you know that about your audience,
Speaker 1: you should actually work it to your advantage, right, so
Speaker 1: they'll vote for you and support you. That's the goal,
Speaker 1: so you can do more shit you want to do.
Speaker 1: And so part of the issue is I just saw
Speaker 1: with the Affordable Care Act, if we said, oh, we're
Speaker 1: building a big community network because health is a human
Speaker 1: right and all that, well, that shit works in New York.
Speaker 1: It doesn't work here in the South. It really doesn't.
Speaker 1: If you say health is a human right, somebody's going
Speaker 1: to tell you to stick your human right up your petuity.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's just how it works on here because
Speaker 1: everybody's like, it's my choice with my doctor, and so
Speaker 1: what they should have said what the Affordable Care Act is,
Speaker 1: it's your choice with your doctor, medical rights like some
Speaker 1: crap like that, and we don't do that. And so
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm just saying, like, you have to market
Speaker 1: it toward your audience, right, if marketed towards your audience.
Speaker 1: And it's the same thing with this infrastructure. It's like,
Speaker 1: if exactly what you said, it's your money, let's put
Speaker 1: it to work in your neighborhood in a way that
Speaker 1: works for you. That's a brilliant message that would work
Speaker 1: down here if you said infrastructure is a human right.
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's great. I agree with that. I mean,
Speaker 1: I study structural racism, but I would also say you're
Speaker 1: not going to win an election that way. So again,
Speaker 1: I feel like the Democrats are missing the message potentially,
Speaker 1: I mean, not everybody. I'm being pretty broad here, except
Speaker 1: to say, like, let's learn from the failure of the
Speaker 1: Affordable Care Act and let's start telling the narrative in
Speaker 1: a way that puts the other side on the defensive,
Speaker 1: which is not what we're doing and not what we've
Speaker 1: been doing. You know, one of the things last week
Speaker 1: I had a conversation with washahat Ali Daily Beasts calumnists
Speaker 1: and calumnists with the New York Times, and you know,
Speaker 1: he brought up your book, and you know, I'm one
Speaker 1: of the things that he was saying. It's just like,
Speaker 1: you know, in terms of his idea for messaging, and
Speaker 1: I want to ask you. He's like, here's the thing,
Speaker 1: We're never getting white people back in the Democratic Party.
Speaker 1: And the reality is is that we need to stop
Speaker 1: chasing the Karens, and we need to stop chasing all
Speaker 1: of these people. When ninety percent of white men vote Republican,
Speaker 1: what we know to be true. Is that close to
Speaker 1: sixty percent of white women vote Republican and have since
Speaker 1: in nineteen fifties. Right, And so right now, when you
Speaker 1: look at the when you look at the Democratic Party,
Speaker 1: he said that you're looking at it roughly about forty
Speaker 1: five percent of white people, right, and everybody else is bipoc. Right.
Speaker 1: And so I'm confused about why we keep going after
Speaker 1: these people and trying to convince them of the messaging
Speaker 1: and trying to contort ourselves into you know, dog whistle
Speaker 1: messaging that they will then get on board with because
Speaker 1: they're rapidly racist, instead of figuring out how we then
Speaker 1: continue to expand the party that is already expanding, Like
Speaker 1: we continue to message to the wrong people and deliver
Speaker 1: things for the wrong people time and time again. White
Speaker 1: people are not the base of the Democratic Party. It
Speaker 1: is everyone else. And so I just don't for me,
Speaker 1: And as I was listening to watch and he's like
Speaker 1: going through the numbers, and it's just like, when are
Speaker 1: we going to wake up to this fact? And I
Speaker 1: know these are the people that you talk to, and
Speaker 1: you're telling me, you know, there is a way to
Speaker 1: win them over, And I'm saying, I don't want to
Speaker 1: waste the energy, and as sure as hell, don't want
Speaker 1: the party to waste the energy. When in fact, if
Speaker 1: we had come out of the gate with voting rights,
Speaker 1: if we had come out of the gate with police reform,
Speaker 1: if we had come out of the gate with all
Speaker 1: of the things that the BIPOC Democratic Party wanted and
Speaker 1: voted for, then we would be better positioned than we
Speaker 1: are right now. But once again, we are chasing forty
Speaker 1: five percent. Forty five percent is the number that we're
Speaker 1: chasing around this country as opposed to the majority. Well,
Speaker 1: I love Wi. I mean, he's the dude, and we're friends,
Speaker 1: and and I think there's a lot of truth to that.
Speaker 1: But I'm going to push back on his point a
Speaker 1: little bit if you don't mind. Which is a couple
Speaker 1: of things. I mean, number one is it's not like
Speaker 1: white people are some monolithic block right and and and
Speaker 1: it's not like it's like crazy ass right wingers on
Speaker 1: one side and people kneeling with Kentae cloth on the other,
Speaker 1: like it's that's you know, that's actually not the reality.
Speaker 1: And so unfortunately, we like we just saw in an
Speaker 1: election two weeks ago, we lost a lot of white
Speaker 1: people who voted for Democrats a year ago. Right, And
Speaker 1: so I think the minute we start seeing this in
Speaker 1: a zero sum game of either we're voting were four
Speaker 1: BIPOC voters or for way, the minute we do that,
Speaker 1: we've lost, right, because then we're rearticulating the winner take
Speaker 1: all winner versus lou rus or tribalism that unfortunately works
Speaker 1: just much better for the Republicans. I mean, if it
Speaker 1: was a winning strategy, sign me up. You know where's
Speaker 1: my can't take cloth, I'll join, you know whatever, Like
Speaker 1: I don't care, But my point is it doesn't work, right,
Speaker 1: I mean, we just saw in Virginia why it doesn't work,
Speaker 1: which is the way the electoral system is. And you
Speaker 1: can certainly give national numbers that are true, and so
Speaker 1: the numbers you gave certainly are true for national numbers,
Speaker 1: but the US electoral system unless we want to change
Speaker 1: the whole system, which needs obviously I know what I'm saying,
Speaker 1: Like you know, in our lifetime. Unfortunately, the system we're
Speaker 1: working and even to get the power to change the system,
Speaker 1: the system we're working in is you know, I wrote
Speaker 1: that piece The Politics of White Anxiety, before the election,
Speaker 1: which laid this all out that in a way, the
Speaker 1: structure of our system is that it overweighs particular states,
Speaker 1: particular demographics, and certainly generate jeremandering is making that point,
Speaker 1: and so I mean, I think the minute you say
Speaker 1: to hell with all the white people or something you know,
Speaker 1: which I understand is not what he's saying, you're going
Speaker 1: to see a result like in Virginia, where it actually
Speaker 1: makes it harder to make change, not easier. Now, the
Speaker 1: point I'm making is not that we should kiss white
Speaker 1: people's testes. I'm not saying that. What I am saying,
Speaker 1: but I am saying is that the minute it's either
Speaker 1: or we've lost. Right. So you can have police reform
Speaker 1: and criminal justice reform and voting reform, all those kind
Speaker 1: of things, and you can also do the things I'm
Speaker 1: talking about, which is articulate to voters who are in
Speaker 1: the middle, who have all the power and the electoral system.
Speaker 1: You can articulate to them in a much better way
Speaker 1: than we've done, a zillion times better way, why they should,
Speaker 1: why progressive policies might work for them, why we might
Speaker 1: bring them along in a particular way. And so we're
Speaker 1: not doing that at all, right, we're not doing that.
Speaker 1: So it's not like, because we are doing police reform
Speaker 1: or we're doing voting reform, we have to give up
Speaker 1: on messaging to centrist white voters. We should be messaging
Speaker 1: more to centrist white voters. The last thing I'll say
Speaker 1: so let me let me push back, right, which is one,
Speaker 1: I do not believe that Democrats lost in Virginia because
Speaker 1: of their messaging. Like one, I do think that infrastructure
Speaker 1: and the passage of infrastructure would have been something to
Speaker 1: run on. But let let us all be clear that
Speaker 1: Terry mcculloff ran a bullshit campaign, right. His campaign had
Speaker 1: no messaging. He was like, oh, I was the guy
Speaker 1: in twenty thirteen, so vote for me again. I'm not
Speaker 1: Trump Like that was his that was his message. Terry
Speaker 1: mcculloff didn't even run on his own accomplishments from twenty thirteen.
Speaker 1: So I don't want us to confuse like his inability
Speaker 1: to campaign in this current moment and actually galvanize the
Speaker 1: Biden you know, allegiance that was created in twenty twenty
Speaker 1: and say like, oh, it failed in twenty twenty one
Speaker 1: because he didn't reach out to white folks. Because I'm
Speaker 1: like he didn't reach out to anyone, and that and that,
Speaker 1: and that was entirely the fuck up of his of
Speaker 1: that campaign. But the but on the other hand, my
Speaker 1: feeling is this, when you go back and you said,
Speaker 1: you know, we're not a zero sum and when we
Speaker 1: start doing this either or right, we lose. But I
Speaker 1: will say this, Jonathan, that as a black queer woman
Speaker 1: in America, the only way that our government has ever
Speaker 1: operated is in a zero sum. And the people that
Speaker 1: are always at the losing end of it and will
Speaker 1: continue to be are people of color, namely black people.
Speaker 1: It's always like, oh, well, we gave you a holiday
Speaker 1: that actually doesn't mean anything, right Juneteenth, because we can't
Speaker 1: teach it, we can't talk about it, and we can't
Speaker 1: you know, we have no context around it. But here's
Speaker 1: this little thing. We know that you want rights, right,
Speaker 1: but look, we're not racist. Here's a holiday. It's like, oh,
Speaker 1: we we know that you need, you know, job security
Speaker 1: and economic stability right to close the racial wealth gap,
Speaker 1: but we put up a BLM flag. So is it
Speaker 1: isn't that enough? Black folks and people of color are
Speaker 1: always are always part of the zero sum, and we're
Speaker 1: always the group that loses in the in the choice
Speaker 1: that the Democratic and Republican Party make in order to
Speaker 1: turn themselves in contortion into contortionists to appease racist white folks. Well,
Speaker 1: I mean, no doubt every word you've just said it's true.
Speaker 1: I'll start with the beginning. I mean, Captain Crunch would
Speaker 1: have run a better campaign than Yeah, I mean, and
Speaker 1: especially with free crunch berries for people and stuff like
Speaker 1: that boy in the box. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think
Speaker 1: that was I think you're dating yourself there. But but
Speaker 1: but no, so one hundred percent that's true. One hundred
Speaker 1: percent that's true. It was not inspiring. But the point
Speaker 1: is the Democrats also lost ground in every election on
Speaker 1: that same day. They lost ground in New Jersey, they
Speaker 1: lost ground in upstate New York, they lost ground in
Speaker 1: like a million other places. U And again there's a
Speaker 1: there's a wave all this kind of thing. But I mean,
Speaker 1: part of the issue is if the goal is winning elections, right,
Speaker 1: then you have to also be able to frame your
Speaker 1: frame your positions in a way that the Democrats have
Speaker 1: done in a much better way. Now, as as we've
Speaker 1: talked about here, I mean, there was the infrastructure bill,
Speaker 1: and then there's the social safety net issue, right, And
Speaker 1: so I thought from the beginning they should have passed
Speaker 1: the infrastructure bill, even though it would have they would
Speaker 1: have lost leverage, that's I agree with that, but at
Speaker 1: least it would have given them something that would have
Speaker 1: been a wedge issue to peel people away, to say
Speaker 1: we're giving you infrastructure, what's your what's your person doing?
Speaker 1: And I also think infrastructure is I mean again, I
Speaker 1: study structural racism. Infrastructure is incredibly relevant for writing historical
Speaker 1: inequities like um, you know, and it's putting highways through
Speaker 1: people's neighborhoods is like the least that's the beginning, redlining,
Speaker 1: school boards, taxation, everything you name it. So I think
Speaker 1: they could have run a campaign, not not McCaul iugh,
Speaker 1: but Captain Crunch or anybody else could have run a
Speaker 1: campaign using infrastructure in a way that would have up
Speaker 1: the pressure to then bring back people to the table
Speaker 1: with pressure that wasn't like the lever pressure. But considering
Speaker 1: they ended up passing the infrastructure built anyway without the
Speaker 1: social net, they should have done it three months ago.
Speaker 1: And so I think, I think, really that was a massive,
Speaker 1: massive miss, and I think we have to we have
Speaker 1: to take some ownership of that. I mean, I think,
Speaker 1: you know, I think we take some ownership of that,
Speaker 1: and because I think it was a miscalculation if you
Speaker 1: just judge it by the end result. Now, of course
Speaker 1: exactly what you're saying is true, but I think, you know,
Speaker 1: really the question is is I mean, let's look, let's
Speaker 1: be honest, is the change within the political system or
Speaker 1: in opposition to the political system, right? I think that's
Speaker 1: really what's at play for a lot of people on
Speaker 1: all sides of this right now. If we're going to
Speaker 1: if we're going to do it the way of like
Speaker 1: win election and get power and make changes, which the
Speaker 1: infrastructure built does, then we should think about how can
Speaker 1: we win elections, which is solidify your base, don't sell
Speaker 1: out your base like they're doing yep. But also don't
Speaker 1: drop a bomb on people the way they feel like,
Speaker 1: you know, don't don't you know what I mean? We've
Speaker 1: made Democrats more vulnerable to this inflation message by waiting
Speaker 1: and dilly dillying and all that kind of stuff. So
Speaker 1: it's it can't be. My point is it can't be
Speaker 1: either or if the goal is to win elections, you
Speaker 1: can't be losing New Jersey and upstate New York. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, you can't. We can't be losing ten points
Speaker 1: on that. So mccaulough aside, I just think the warning
Speaker 1: signs are flashing red that we've got to do something differently.
Speaker 1: And as I always argue, it's not like the outcome
Speaker 1: is different, right, It's not like the outcome is different.
Speaker 1: But I don't think again, I just think if we're
Speaker 1: saying to hell with you, we're just going to the danger.
Speaker 1: Just let me say this. I don't I'm not saying well.
Speaker 1: I mean, well, I say to hell with you, right,
Speaker 1: But in general, I'm not saying to hell with you.
Speaker 1: I'm just saying I'm no longer pandering to you, right,
Speaker 1: And that, to me is the difference. I'm not saying oh,
Speaker 1: because frankly, if I am, if I am a white person, right,
Speaker 1: who isn't a rapid racist? I too care about voting rights,
Speaker 1: I too care about police having accountability, I too care
Speaker 1: about you know, quality education and climate change and all
Speaker 1: of these like I care about these things. Right, If
Speaker 1: I'm not a Trumper, if I'm not seventy five eighty
Speaker 1: million Americans in the United States that wanted to vote
Speaker 1: for him to have a second term. Like then I
Speaker 1: care about the same things that the foundation of the
Speaker 1: Democratic Party cares about. And all I'm saying is, so,
Speaker 1: then let's get those things done that we know that
Speaker 1: the majority voted for, as opposed to going after and
Speaker 1: appeasing the few at the expense of the many, right, right,
Speaker 1: I mean there's no monolithic block now, right, I mean
Speaker 1: it's like there, you know, there's always like all white
Speaker 1: people are not they're not all voting as white people.
Speaker 1: And you know, now we have herschel Walker. But I
Speaker 1: mean part of the issue is when when Trump for
Speaker 1: four years of the Trump administration, they were building a base,
Speaker 1: reaching out in very clan to sign ways to black
Speaker 1: men and conservative Latin X voters and stuff like that,
Speaker 1: Like they were basically saying, what the hell the Democrats
Speaker 1: drink for you? And I feel like there's a playbook
Speaker 1: there that the republic that the Democrats should be doing,
Speaker 1: which is we never put we never put Democrats, and
Speaker 1: we never put Republicans on the defensive with their with
Speaker 1: their own base in a way. And so again, I
Speaker 1: just think we're doing the right thing in now. But
Speaker 1: I just think we're not being strategic, strategic enough about it.
Speaker 1: And again the goal, the goal should be to win elections.
Speaker 1: And so again I completely agree with what you're saying.
Speaker 1: I'm just saying that. I mean, the danger really is
Speaker 1: is that we're building the Democratic Party as a resistance
Speaker 1: party in opposition to the Republican Party, which is being
Speaker 1: built as like a get a whole power at all
Speaker 1: cross party. It's a it's a model for how to
Speaker 1: get and hold power at all costs. And so to
Speaker 1: fight that, you've got to you've got to have power strategies,
Speaker 1: not just resistant strategies. Last question for you, if you
Speaker 1: are reading the tea leaves, we are, you know, about
Speaker 1: a year away from you know, a little a little
Speaker 1: less than that, but about a year away from midterm elections.
Speaker 1: You're reading the tea leaves, how do we end up?
Speaker 1: I mean, the mccaulliff election, it's it's not enough just
Speaker 1: to say he was a crap candidate. He was a
Speaker 1: bad candidate, for sure, but but it's more like we
Speaker 1: need to focus, we need to get disciplined. I mean,
Speaker 1: the reason Biden won in the first place is because
Speaker 1: we brought a lot of people under the tent, right,
Speaker 1: We won that election because we actually did have a
Speaker 1: coalition Centrists and progressives. And then I think both groups
Speaker 1: after the election misread the mandate right that no side
Speaker 1: would have won without the other side. And the only
Speaker 1: reason we won that election is because people came together
Speaker 1: and figured out a way. And if we don't do that,
Speaker 1: if we if we have this inner party war, which
Speaker 1: again is misreading how we won the presidential election, then
Speaker 1: I think we're in big trouble. If we can turn
Speaker 1: that around, figured this out somehow. I mean again, like
Speaker 1: all the people who voted for Biden, it wasn't it
Speaker 1: wasn't any no one group was going to put Biden
Speaker 1: over the top by himself. Many people were out there, certainly,
Speaker 1: I mean, I completely agree with you, but I'm saying
Speaker 1: that the message of the Biden election was also people
Speaker 1: did form a coalition which all of a sudden was
Speaker 1: incredibly damn formidable, Like a lot of people voted for it.
Speaker 1: And so if we recapture that somehow, if we figure
Speaker 1: that out, I think I think it. I think we're unbeatable.
Speaker 1: But if we keep doing what we're doing now, um,
Speaker 1: then I think we're in trouble. Yeah, I agree, and that.
Speaker 1: You know, the last thing that I will say on
Speaker 1: this is that I do believe that one group put
Speaker 1: Biden over because had he not won the South Carolina primary,
Speaker 1: had Jim Clyburn not come out and galvanized black people
Speaker 1: in South Carolina, we I don't even know if we
Speaker 1: would be having this discussion outside of a prison somewhere.
Speaker 1: We're all heading there, We're heading there. Again. It's it's
Speaker 1: it's delicate to say because it's not It's not like
Speaker 1: what I'm saying is in any way disrespectful to the
Speaker 1: amazing efforts. But there's no doubt about that. But I'm
Speaker 1: saying that, you know, the ten percentage point of people
Speaker 1: in swing states who now vote Republican, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean. Like, it's it's a million different things. And certainly, um,
Speaker 1: there's no doubt that if the South Carolina changed the
Speaker 1: course of history. There's no doubt that people standing in
Speaker 1: line into great perils of themselves in Pennsylvania changed the
Speaker 1: course of history. There's no doubt that all these things.
Speaker 1: I mean, for sure, that's true. For sure, people of
Speaker 1: color saved the United States, There's no doubt about that.
Speaker 1: But I would also say that part of the story
Speaker 1: was also that it was ultimately like how many people
Speaker 1: seventy eighty million whatever voted, and so ultimately also that
Speaker 1: was also the story of people saving each other and
Speaker 1: we and we had a narrative that brought people under
Speaker 1: this in a way that brought people together. And right
Speaker 1: now we don't have that. We're very tribalized. And I
Speaker 1: guess the point I'm trying to make is the minute
Speaker 1: we're tribalized, that works together side, it doesn't work for us.
Speaker 1: That's why I'm so against all this year or some stuff,
Speaker 1: because that's what they're trying to do to us. And
Speaker 1: if we don't see that that's the game, and we
Speaker 1: don't actually respond by taking care of everybody and as
Speaker 1: best we can figuring out a way to build a coalition,
Speaker 1: then unfortunately I think we're that you know, we're going
Speaker 1: to again. We're going to be a resistance party, not
Speaker 1: a power party. As always, doctor Jonathan Metzol, we appreciate
Speaker 1: your insight, your analysis, and your passion. Thank you so
Speaker 1: much for making time as always to join Woke. App
Speaker 1: take care back to COVID next week. Everybody, that is
Speaker 1: it for me today, Folks on Woke app as always
Speaker 1: Power to the people and to all the people. Power,
Speaker 1: Get woke and stay woke as fuck.