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Speaker 1: Pushkin. Some people see the world in black and white,

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Speaker 1: Jenna Lions spins an entire color wheel. As the longtime

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Speaker 1: creative force behind j Crew, she helped democratize fashion and

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Speaker 1: shape a distinctly American aesthetic, but her color references were

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Speaker 1: always global. Her instinct for contrasts, proportion, and unexpected combinations

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Speaker 1: changed the way a generation dressed. She did not grow

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Speaker 1: up surrounded by access or abundance, but like many of

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Speaker 1: the great originals, she's her own creation. Jenna's sensibility now

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Speaker 1: extends far beyond clothing, into interiors, objects, and just generally

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Speaker 1: the way she composes her life. Where her travel was

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Speaker 1: once defined by work, she now returns to the world

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Speaker 1: with a sense of play and even wider eyes. From

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Speaker 1: revisiting silk archives in Como to the erotic precision of

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Speaker 1: shibori in Japan and formative summers in France, and the

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Speaker 1: beauty of the color green, Here is my conversation with

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Speaker 1: the wonderful gen alliance. Hi Genera, I love. I wanted

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Speaker 1: to ask you first, do you know what a bower

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Speaker 1: bird is?

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Speaker 2: I do know what about it?

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Speaker 1: Ye? Yes, A particular Australian type of bird. There's a

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Speaker 1: particular one called a satin bower bird. Do you know

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Speaker 1: this specific? Oh, I didn't know there was a satin

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Speaker 1: there's one called a satin bower bird. And just for

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Speaker 1: like some explanation, a bower bird is a bird from

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Speaker 1: Australia and Papua New Guinea like myself, that collects a

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Speaker 1: particular color. It makes its own structure, and then it

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Speaker 1: goes out in the world and collects particular things from

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Speaker 1: a shade of blue. And so when I was thinking

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Speaker 1: about talking to you, I thought about the bower bird

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Speaker 1: because I think we share a sense of like color

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Speaker 1: collection out on the road. And so if you were

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Speaker 1: a bower bird, what would be the color maybe what

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Speaker 1: would be the first color when you're out traveling that

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Speaker 1: you kind of recognize that you wanted to collect, if

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Speaker 1: that makes sense?

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Speaker 2: Green?

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Speaker 1: Green?

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Speaker 2: Yes. I used to search, like I remember, the whole

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Speaker 2: world open up on the first DIBs and like all

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Speaker 2: of these benchure places, and I would just go in

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Speaker 2: and search a color. It's an amazing way to find

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Speaker 2: things that you don't even know exist, but like between

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Speaker 2: malachite and you know, stained tiles, and I love goat

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Speaker 2: skin that's been stained in green I had an Eldo

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Speaker 2: tour piece that I sold in a fit one night.

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Speaker 2: I don't know why, but like I love searching through

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Speaker 2: color that.

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Speaker 1: Way, there's a particular shade of green in Milan that

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Speaker 1: I think is kind Have you been to Villaineki No,

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Speaker 1: so Villainiki is like the big house museum in Milan

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Speaker 1: that has a particular type of green. It was. It

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Speaker 1: was the house in I am love in the Luca

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Speaker 1: Guanina movies. You'll have to go when you're there.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I'm excited to go to Selina because I've

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Speaker 2: only ever really been to Milan for work. So I

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Speaker 2: used to go and when I would go, I was

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Speaker 2: visiting Como and I would go to our print house

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Speaker 2: which is Ratti, and so I oftentimes was not really

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Speaker 2: getting to explore the city in the same way. It

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Speaker 2: was always work based.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting, like fashion people well you know, have

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Speaker 1: gone there. There's like such a like maintained routine, it

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Speaker 1: seems when they go there. And I think it was

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Speaker 1: like of this period where no one liked Milan or

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Speaker 1: they had to go there, like under juss I have

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Speaker 1: a very different experience of it as to I think

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Speaker 1: a lot of people in the design world.

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Speaker 2: I did not realize until I started doing more interior

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Speaker 2: stuff and looking for inspiration and finding the demorrious studio

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Speaker 2: guys that I didn't really understand interior design the same way,

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Speaker 2: like I had a much deeper connection to like fabrics

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Speaker 2: and notions and things. You know, they made the most

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Speaker 2: beautiful notions of buttons and zippers and things that I

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Speaker 2: couldn't findywhere else, But like it didn't look that beautiful

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Speaker 2: from the outside, Like when you go to Milan, I

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Speaker 2: don't remember Florence. You drive through and it's just sunning.

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Speaker 2: But I never had that experience, and I didn't get

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Speaker 2: to go into anyone's home, so I kind of missed that.

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Speaker 1: It's an interesting thing, like Italian cities are so outward right,

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Speaker 1: Rome is so expressed. Everything is sort of to the exterior,

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Speaker 1: let's say, and exterior beauty. I mean, ironically, it's fashion city.

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Speaker 1: But the thing about Milan, have you ever seen the

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Speaker 1: book in Grescity Milan or the entryways in the Landa.

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Speaker 1: I think that that was, along with Silone, was the

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Speaker 1: thing that flipped the coin.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I've definitely had a few moments that

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Speaker 2: have flipped the coin for sure. But in my earlier

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Speaker 2: days when I was going to Milan, I did not

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Speaker 2: have the sense of appreciation, which I definitely do have

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Speaker 2: much more now.

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Speaker 1: I think it's really about the courtyard, the entry way.

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Speaker 1: So it's changed a lot now, I think, probably more

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Speaker 1: than almost any city in Europe in the past ten years.

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Speaker 1: But those heavy doors that kept you out rather than

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Speaker 1: invited you in unless you were kind of in that

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Speaker 1: Milanisee thing. But you know, a lot of the buildings

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Speaker 1: are the same. It's not like there's huge rapid development,

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Speaker 1: sure yes, but not like you would see in an

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Speaker 1: exploding city in that way. But its doors have swung open.

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Speaker 2: I think the thing that I didn't realize about Milan,

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Speaker 2: and I think because I was only eating in restaurants

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Speaker 2: and it was you don't get a sense of there

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Speaker 2: is a play on texture and color that I think

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Speaker 2: the Milianaires do in a way that no one else does.

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Speaker 1: Correct.

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Speaker 2: I remember the first time I saw that Demorris studio

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Speaker 2: boys and they were doing like these deep greens paired

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Speaker 2: with like a weird pink and then an offset light fixture,

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Speaker 2: and I was like, like, what the fuck is that?

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Speaker 2: I just never seen anything like that and just incredibly

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Speaker 2: unusual placements of tile and color combinations. It didn't have

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Speaker 2: that same rhythm of like Parisian like proper trying to

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Speaker 2: be pretty right, which I was so excited to see

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Speaker 2: something that wasn't trying to be pretty ugly marble, weird marble, huge,

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Speaker 2: disproportionate sinks, unusual like pairings of metals in bathrooms. I

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Speaker 2: was like, these people are whackedaws what I love it.

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Speaker 1: Let's just backtrack a little bit. When you were working

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Speaker 1: at J. C. Crew, you used to go there to

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Speaker 1: saw silk.

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Speaker 2: We would stay in Lan and go to Como from

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Speaker 2: there because it was just an easier like as a hub,

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Speaker 2: and you couldn't fly directly into Como anyway, and it

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Speaker 2: was a little bit of like meeting with some of

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Speaker 2: our fabric vendors, meeting with We also had a shoe

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Speaker 2: factory that was outside of Milan, and so we would

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Speaker 2: go to Milan, stay there, but go to our shoe

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Speaker 2: that was just outside of there. And then it was

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Speaker 2: you know, certainly to see what was going on in

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Speaker 2: the industry. Were were always looking to see like what's

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Speaker 2: happening in Milan because it was indicative in the fashion

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Speaker 2: industry where things were going. And this was years ago

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Speaker 2: where you didn't have the internet, honestly, like we were

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Speaker 2: going to sort of get a sense of like what

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Speaker 2: are Italians wearing? And I would just sit in the

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Speaker 2: cafes and watch these women. I mean it was granny

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Speaker 2: style is my favorite.

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Speaker 1: Oh Shura, that's what they're called shura.

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Speaker 2: I mean it is the hottest thing. I'm so surprised

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Speaker 2: I didn't know I was gay earlier on because I

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Speaker 2: just was like obsessed with these old ladies. I couldn't

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Speaker 2: There's style widening bicycles, and it was totally different than French,

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Speaker 2: completely completely different, like a different like the attention to

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Speaker 2: detail with jewelry, and it was always so different too.

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Speaker 2: I think if you look in France, like there's a

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Speaker 2: sort of a little bit more of a lass a fair,

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Speaker 2: like they don't want to do their hair, croft they

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Speaker 2: don't do their nails so much. They're you know, same

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Speaker 2: with British fashion. They're a little bit more wanting to

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Speaker 2: be easy and kind of sultry and sexy in that way,

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Speaker 2: whereas in Milan the women were buttoned up and like

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Speaker 2: some random weird butter yellow shoe and I'm like, I

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Speaker 2: don't know what the fuck that is, but I love it.

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Speaker 2: And it was just a totally different in it changed

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Speaker 2: the aperture for me of color for sure, Like I

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Speaker 2: can distinctly remember the first time I fell in love

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Speaker 2: with like deep merlow burgundy and blue, and it was

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Speaker 2: this woman wearing this sort of cordiven colored leather skirt,

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Speaker 2: blue shirt, beautiful gold earrings, the most unweli weird mint

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Speaker 2: colored bag, and I was like, what the hell And

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Speaker 2: I just remember that. And then this other woman wearing

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Speaker 2: mint pants with a red blouse and it was like

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Speaker 2: bright red with a red sweater tried around her. So

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Speaker 2: that color massing idea, Like I grew up in California,

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Speaker 2: like people wore dolphin shorts and like ope T shirts,

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Speaker 2: like it just didn't vibe.

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Speaker 1: I grew up in Brisbane, I get it. I was like.

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Speaker 2: Completely having an out of body experience like had. The

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Speaker 2: color combinations were just so unusual, and so I had

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Speaker 2: that color stacking idea where it's like, you know, wearing

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Speaker 2: the same color layered together or sort of slight tones,

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Speaker 2: like it existed, but in a milana existed in a

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Speaker 2: way that I hadn't seen before.

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Speaker 1: I think Milan is in many ways like a matriarchal

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Speaker 1: society because some of the people that control the city,

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Speaker 1: in fact, many of them iconic women industrialists, right, and

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Speaker 1: they're also of a particular age. They're occupying that space

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Speaker 1: which is both like business and confidence. It's not necessarily ornamental.

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Speaker 2: I think in the United States, when you're a woman

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Speaker 2: in business, you need to be professional, and professional doesn't

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Speaker 2: often integrate with style correct and sometimes it can actually

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Speaker 2: seem like you're spending too much time on your appearance,

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Speaker 2: Whereas I think in Italy there is an appreciation the

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Speaker 2: men dress right, and when the women dress, it's looked

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Speaker 2: upon and favorably.

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Speaker 1: It's not that they dress for armor, but the effect

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Speaker 1: ends up they do. That's not what they're trying to affect.

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Speaker 1: It's the reverse, but it ends up being like a

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Speaker 1: really strong kind of way of presenting and really hot.

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Speaker 1: We're going to Rati trip with Capital one. Now, what's

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Speaker 1: the history there with Ratzi.

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Speaker 2: So you know, j crewe had historically been a house

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Speaker 2: that really print was probably one of the most important elements,

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Speaker 2: and it was also the launching pad for each season,

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Speaker 2: so we would do you know, we were so big,

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Speaker 2: and we would ship a new capsule collection every month.

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Speaker 2: And in all honesty, having a print, a beautiful print

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Speaker 2: was a good anchor. It was a way to set

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Speaker 2: the store. So the store team could say, this is

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Speaker 2: the print, and then here's all the things that go

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Speaker 2: around it. And so you know, if I had a

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Speaker 2: beautiful print of little sailboats, then it was easier to

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Speaker 2: put a little black and white piping or of Nabe

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Speaker 2: white painting, and then maybe a blue and white stripe

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Speaker 2: and a little anchor moment, and all of a sudden,

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Speaker 2: the group comes together quite easily and it's easy for

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Speaker 2: the customer to understand. It was easy for us to

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Speaker 2: design into. However, print in the United States is harder

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Speaker 2: to find. It's not as much of an art, and

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Speaker 2: I think what worked for us wasn't painterly things. But

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Speaker 2: a lot of the print houses that would come to

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Speaker 2: us in the United States had a lot of very

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Speaker 2: painterly florals, and it just it worked sometimes. But we

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Speaker 2: couldn't anchor twelve deliveries a year in that and so

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Speaker 2: we really as we started working with more and more

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Speaker 2: Italian mills, we started really looking for high end print houses.

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Speaker 2: And when we started working with Roti, they just opened

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Speaker 2: up a whole like Ratti can print, you know, twenty

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Speaker 2: six colors of a paisley. That's insane, Like that's not normal,

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Speaker 2: that doesn't happen in the United States. They used copper

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Speaker 2: rollers still they do all the print weights. Like those

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Speaker 2: kinds of things seemed simple, but they weren't. We'd had

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Speaker 2: no access to them. They were expensive, so we couldn't

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Speaker 2: use them all the time. And you know, it was

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Speaker 2: one of those things where it was a special thing.

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Speaker 2: But when we did use it, I mean we had

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Speaker 2: one pink paisley that we did in silk and cotton,

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Speaker 2: and we bought like, you know, twenty thousand yards of that.

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Speaker 2: Ratu was used to getting orders of like three hundred

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Speaker 2: five hundred. You know, they were Italian, they were expensive.

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Speaker 2: They were selling to Dorcea Ivana and these people who

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Speaker 2: were making out they were not making thousands and thousands

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Speaker 2: of garments. I mean, we had this lobster print that

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Speaker 2: we did form Natio and I think we made like

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Speaker 2: seven thousand dresses, so that's a huge order. And so

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Speaker 2: we ended up having an amazing relationship with them. They

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Speaker 2: were wonderful to us anyway, so I would go and

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Speaker 2: spend hours, like literally an entire day, and then hang

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Speaker 2: out with the lunch ladies. It's always always comes back

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Speaker 2: to the old ladies, Me and the old ladies.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to take you one day to Catman. Do

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Speaker 1: I have a friend There they create cashmir which.

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Speaker 2: Is you know, I know all about cash time you

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Speaker 2: do you do?

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Speaker 1: Of course, they have this extraordinary dying and weaving facility

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Speaker 1: that have been doing the blankets for ames for twenty years.

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Speaker 2: I've heard of that.

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Speaker 1: Well, I feel like I got somewhat in your head

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Speaker 1: for a second there, because you know it's greens and

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Speaker 1: yellows or there's color blocking incredibly vivid ames.

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Speaker 2: Well, I also think it makes you realize, how I mean,

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Speaker 2: I've taken a bunch of people to make shirts for

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Speaker 2: the first time, and what you realize is like how

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Speaker 2: incredible and important it as choices are, and how the

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Speaker 2: choices that you make, whether it be with color or

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Speaker 2: you know, everyone always goes crazy when they make their

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Speaker 2: first shirt because they can the world is the oyster.

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Speaker 2: But how refined choices are like where all the magic happens.

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Speaker 2: Because when you think about it, like you can pick

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Speaker 2: anything and then all of a sudden that can be

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Speaker 2: really ugly, right, that could go wrong, But it's like

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Speaker 2: that art of picking and getting to that point. I mean, so,

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Speaker 2: I do you know about Kashmir tops or how Kashmir

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Speaker 2: is selected?

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Speaker 1: And I do a little bit only because you know,

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Speaker 1: I was preparing for our chat. But I'd love you

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Speaker 1: to explain a little bit what that means.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so we bought Kashmir from Lori Piana. We were

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Speaker 2: the second largest purchaser of Kashmir. And the way that

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Speaker 2: Kashmir is purchases through this process called tops. So basically

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Speaker 2: what happens is most of the Kashmir, I would say

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Speaker 2: eighty percent of the cashme in the world comes out

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Speaker 2: of Mongolia. And these little Kashmir goats are groomed with

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Speaker 2: their beautiful like the front part of their beard. Basically

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Speaker 2: is this incredible soft Kashmir yarn. And what happens is

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Speaker 2: everyone from around the world goes and bids, and so

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Speaker 2: Laura Piana, because they are a premiere purveyor, they get

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Speaker 2: to bid and the best and so it's like an

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Speaker 2: auction and all of the tops, which are basically the

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Speaker 2: raw of the yarn that's just been it's not yarn yet,

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Speaker 2: it's just the fluff from the goat gets put into

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Speaker 2: these big bins. And what you're looking for is the

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Speaker 2: whitest and the cleanest. And the reason is when you

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Speaker 2: go to die these beautiful colors, like, you don't want

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Speaker 2: to have to bleach the yarn right and then die

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Speaker 2: over it, because when you do that, it obviously degrades

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Speaker 2: the quality of the yarn and also can make it

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Speaker 2: stiffer and not as soft. And so you want the

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Speaker 2: best quality yarn to get these really vibrant colors. You

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Speaker 2: kind of can't do that with basic Chinese cashmere just

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Speaker 2: it never is going to feel the same. And so

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Speaker 2: we were buying tonnage, so like Raflauren was bigger than

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Speaker 2: us at the time, and they bought the muscle. We

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Speaker 2: were buying like eight tons tons of raw cashmere tops,

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Speaker 2: and I would get to go and like be there

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Speaker 2: sometimes when they were pick which was one of the

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Speaker 2: best experiences I've ever had. When you feel that cashme tops,

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Speaker 2: the finest cashmere tops, and then you feel some of

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Speaker 2: the stuff that is in the other bats, it's a

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Speaker 2: totally different experience. I mean, Lourer Piano saves all of

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Speaker 2: the baby cashmere for themselves and there's no no animals

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Speaker 2: are harmed. They're just frushed and they take all of

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Speaker 2: the baby cashmere goat. So that like if you get

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Speaker 2: a baby cash mak figure, like they're seven hundred dollars

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Speaker 2: or like that much, it's insane, but it's worth it.

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Speaker 1: So that's that's that's why you get those prices.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but because we were buying so much, we were

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Speaker 2: able to get incredible quality and a much better price

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Speaker 2: because we bought in such high volume.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's pull on the silk the silk road. So

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Speaker 1: I've been thinking a lot when you were we were

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Speaker 1: talking a little bit before about the kinds of trips

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Speaker 1: and destinations you wanted to talk about. There was one

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Speaker 1: particularly with China, and I was like thinking the other

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Speaker 1: day that, you know, I don't think many people really realize,

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Speaker 1: because it's such a fiber that we have in our lives, silk,

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Speaker 1: that it's actually made from Moulbery's silk.

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Speaker 2: Ms.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that scale like did you ever see the it

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Speaker 1: being made in that way?

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Speaker 2: Well, so when I first joined J Crew, and this

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Speaker 2: is back in the nineties, so this is like lind

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Speaker 2: Evangelist on the cover day is like old school. We

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Speaker 2: had a whole silk program and I didn't know anything

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Speaker 2: about silk at the time, and we weren't that big

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Speaker 2: at the time. We weren't the scale we weren't when

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Speaker 2: I left, but we still had a massive program. We

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Speaker 2: had pants, oversized shirts, Lauren hut And wearing a big

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Speaker 2: oversized shirt, and we as usual, we're making you know,

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Speaker 2: we a silk pant that was very heavy, which let's

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Speaker 2: called a silk broadcloth. It's a plain weave, you know,

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Speaker 2: different mummy. So silk is measured in mummy, which is

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Speaker 2: basically like the weight. So like you can have a habita,

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Speaker 2: you can have a silk broadcloth, you can have a

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Speaker 2: silk KaDee, you can have a silk twill. There's all

335
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Speaker 2: these different silk weaves and they all come in different weights,

336
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Speaker 2: and so the weight, the higher the number the fine

337
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Speaker 2: or the silk. So like a twenty two mummy means

338
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Speaker 2: the silk is very fine. If it's a six mummy,

339
00:15:42,304 --> 00:15:45,184
Speaker 2: it's heavier, beefier, gutsy. It's kind of the same in sweaters,

340
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Speaker 2: and we would make tons of it. And so I

341
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Speaker 2: would go to Asia and I mean I remember like

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Speaker 2: these people cultivating silkworm fact farms. So we were like

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Speaker 2: I wasn't just going to Hong Kong. I was in

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Speaker 2: the factories in China because that's where we would do

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Speaker 2: the dyeing. So what most people don't realize is that oftentimes,

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Speaker 2: like if you're a company like Jacre, you bought you

347
00:16:07,864 --> 00:16:10,144
Speaker 2: you pick a swatch of something and you say like

348
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Speaker 2: I like this sort of burnt orange, and then you

349
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Speaker 2: send it to the mill and they then take little

350
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Speaker 2: vats and they die up little small swatches for you.

351
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Speaker 2: That process takes a long time. Imagine they're doing that

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Speaker 2: in Inner China when we're picking the colors, and then

353
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Speaker 2: they're sending it back to New York and then I'm saying,

354
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Speaker 2: can you make it fifteen percent more pink, you know,

355
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Speaker 2: or more red and a little bit more yellow, and

356
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Speaker 2: then we send it back and again this is like

357
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Speaker 2: snail mail days, so it can take a really long time.

358
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Speaker 2: So when we were having a tight delivery window, I

359
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Speaker 2: would go to the factory and literally like sit there

360
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Speaker 2: with them while they would dye the fabric and they

361
00:16:46,104 --> 00:16:48,344
Speaker 2: would and with silk they died in these tufts, and

362
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Speaker 2: then you have to twist it. Same thing with the yarn,

363
00:16:51,104 --> 00:16:52,704
Speaker 2: and you would twist it, and so I would oftentimes

364
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Speaker 2: not even be looking at real fabric. I would just

365
00:16:54,304 --> 00:16:56,784
Speaker 2: be looking at twisted yarn for the sweater and twisted

366
00:16:56,824 --> 00:16:59,143
Speaker 2: silks and these tufts, and then lay it flat and

367
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Speaker 2: then look it on its box and say like, Okay.

368
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Speaker 1: What age wave? What's some like memorable? You must have

369
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Speaker 1: gone dozens of times.

370
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Speaker 2: Oh my god, I've met so many times. I mean,

371
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Speaker 2: I think what was really incredible was like I started

372
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Speaker 2: going when I was like fresh out of college. My

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Speaker 2: very trip. I would think I was twenty two, Like

374
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Speaker 2: I'd never been to Asia in my life. I had

375
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Speaker 2: no idea, and I had some pretty unusual experiences there.

376
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Speaker 2: The first time, I fo.

377
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Speaker 1: You texted me and said, like a little bit what

378
00:17:25,584 --> 00:17:27,543
Speaker 1: you wanted to talk about? And then one of the

379
00:17:27,544 --> 00:17:30,504
Speaker 1: notes about a China trip was no meds, which I

380
00:17:30,544 --> 00:17:31,704
Speaker 1: was curious to talk about.

381
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Speaker 2: Uh okay, well all right. So there was one time

382
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Speaker 2: where we were doing that's called a listening tour. So

383
00:17:37,184 --> 00:17:39,264
Speaker 2: we were getting ready to launch Jay Crew in Asia

384
00:17:39,344 --> 00:17:41,784
Speaker 2: and we were doing a listening tour and so that's

385
00:17:41,784 --> 00:17:44,984
Speaker 2: where you go basically and meet with people who are

386
00:17:45,024 --> 00:17:46,824
Speaker 2: in the finance world and say, like, what's happening in

387
00:17:46,864 --> 00:17:49,744
Speaker 2: the country. And so we were deep in China or Shanghai, Beijing.

388
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Speaker 2: We were like but traveling in between and really seeing

389
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Speaker 2: the country. And I think I was getting a urinary

390
00:17:54,944 --> 00:17:57,704
Speaker 2: tract infection. And I don't know if anyone's ever had one,

391
00:17:57,704 --> 00:18:01,864
Speaker 2: but they're brutal. Really Oh fuck, it's the worst. It

392
00:18:01,944 --> 00:18:04,504
Speaker 2: burns when upee, and it's not humane. It's like the

393
00:18:04,544 --> 00:18:06,424
Speaker 2: curse of being a girl, and it is not Men

394
00:18:06,464 --> 00:18:09,224
Speaker 2: get them, but very rarely anyway, So I was dying.

395
00:18:09,224 --> 00:18:11,304
Speaker 2: I drinking a shit ton of crimeberry juice and a

396
00:18:11,304 --> 00:18:13,264
Speaker 2: ton of water, and I was like, I'm we had

397
00:18:13,264 --> 00:18:15,264
Speaker 2: another four days in China, and I was like, I'm

398
00:18:15,264 --> 00:18:16,624
Speaker 2: not going to make it four days. I have to

399
00:18:16,664 --> 00:18:18,744
Speaker 2: get to a doctor. And I went to a doctor.

400
00:18:18,784 --> 00:18:21,144
Speaker 2: And I go into this doctor's office and he's like,

401
00:18:22,224 --> 00:18:23,944
Speaker 2: I have no meds for you. I can't do anything

402
00:18:23,984 --> 00:18:26,264
Speaker 2: for you. There's we don't have anything here. And I'm like, well,

403
00:18:26,264 --> 00:18:28,064
Speaker 2: what am I going to do? So by the time

404
00:18:28,624 --> 00:18:30,824
Speaker 2: we realized that we're leaving, I have one hundred and

405
00:18:30,864 --> 00:18:35,384
Speaker 2: four fever. I am delirious. I have started to like hallucinate.

406
00:18:35,424 --> 00:18:37,544
Speaker 2: I'm saying bizarre things. People are like are you okay?

407
00:18:37,624 --> 00:18:39,264
Speaker 2: And I'm like, where's my banana?

408
00:18:39,264 --> 00:18:39,424
Speaker 1: Why?

409
00:18:39,464 --> 00:18:40,944
Speaker 2: As it sucked in my head? Like I am like

410
00:18:41,064 --> 00:18:43,624
Speaker 2: out to lunch, like I've completely lost the plot and

411
00:18:43,664 --> 00:18:46,144
Speaker 2: I'm like I need and then we are going back.

412
00:18:46,184 --> 00:18:47,584
Speaker 2: So we like we have to get to Hong Kong

413
00:18:47,664 --> 00:18:50,224
Speaker 2: because there's nothing anyone can do for me, and we

414
00:18:50,304 --> 00:18:53,024
Speaker 2: get stopped at the border because I'm loop de loop.

415
00:18:53,664 --> 00:18:56,944
Speaker 2: It looks like I'm being trafficked. I am sweating, Like

416
00:18:57,024 --> 00:18:59,144
Speaker 2: I saw a picture of me, I lit, I look

417
00:19:00,104 --> 00:19:03,064
Speaker 2: unhinged and I am completely.

418
00:19:02,904 --> 00:19:05,264
Speaker 1: Wear thing worse than getting really sick on the road,

419
00:19:05,384 --> 00:19:07,864
Speaker 1: Like what's really because I did it looks experience.

420
00:19:07,984 --> 00:19:09,904
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I didn't look sick like you can't. No

421
00:19:09,904 --> 00:19:11,544
Speaker 2: one can see it. I mean the only thing you

422
00:19:11,544 --> 00:19:13,384
Speaker 2: could see was that I seemed unhinged and I was

423
00:19:13,384 --> 00:19:15,384
Speaker 2: sweating profusely. You know, I had a really high fever,

424
00:19:15,464 --> 00:19:18,144
Speaker 2: but I didn't really look sick other than that, and

425
00:19:18,384 --> 00:19:20,784
Speaker 2: they wouldn't let us into the so we had to

426
00:19:20,784 --> 00:19:22,144
Speaker 2: get someone to come and clear. We had to get

427
00:19:22,144 --> 00:19:23,664
Speaker 2: a doctor to come and meet me and take my

428
00:19:23,704 --> 00:19:25,864
Speaker 2: temperature and say that I was. Indeed, the whole thing

429
00:19:25,904 --> 00:19:30,184
Speaker 2: was insane. We get to Hong Kong and there's this

430
00:19:30,224 --> 00:19:32,224
Speaker 2: woman named Magdalena who I won't give her full name,

431
00:19:32,264 --> 00:19:36,104
Speaker 2: but Magdalena who was like our agent and she is

432
00:19:36,264 --> 00:19:38,784
Speaker 2: very wealthy. I get picked up on the tarmac and

433
00:19:38,784 --> 00:19:40,704
Speaker 2: a bentley. I was like, Okay, things are looking up.

434
00:19:41,624 --> 00:19:43,784
Speaker 2: And they took me right into a doctor's office, put

435
00:19:43,784 --> 00:19:45,264
Speaker 2: a shot in one butt cheek and a shot in

436
00:19:45,304 --> 00:19:47,864
Speaker 2: my other, butchet one for the medication to actually fix it,

437
00:19:47,904 --> 00:19:50,064
Speaker 2: in one for the pain, and I just like that

438
00:19:50,144 --> 00:19:52,864
Speaker 2: was all was well the world. But I could not

439
00:19:53,304 --> 00:19:55,464
Speaker 2: believe I couldn't get any MUDs at anywhere and no

440
00:19:55,504 --> 00:19:57,864
Speaker 2: one could help me, and it was I was, I'm

441
00:19:57,864 --> 00:19:59,264
Speaker 2: not kidding you. I thought I had a banana stuck

442
00:19:59,304 --> 00:19:59,664
Speaker 2: to my head.

443
00:20:00,064 --> 00:20:02,824
Speaker 1: This episode of Traveling Through is sponsored by Capital One.

444
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445
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446
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447
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Speaker 1: the grand architecture of Vienna. These ones in our Lifetime

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450
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451
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452
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453
00:20:32,984 --> 00:20:37,464
Speaker 1: is one step closer jumping from China to Japan. You've

454
00:20:37,504 --> 00:20:39,024
Speaker 1: been there a lot right for.

455
00:20:39,424 --> 00:20:41,584
Speaker 2: Well, we used to buy a lot of Japanese dune

456
00:20:41,584 --> 00:20:44,904
Speaker 2: them and so I was going to visit some of

457
00:20:44,944 --> 00:20:47,584
Speaker 2: the mills or like Kaihara. And we also had a

458
00:20:47,664 --> 00:20:50,424
Speaker 2: Japanese licensee, so we had stores on Japanzo. We would

459
00:20:50,464 --> 00:20:53,344
Speaker 2: work with them on what we were producing. For me.

460
00:20:53,664 --> 00:20:56,064
Speaker 2: I have to say, the travel that I've done since

461
00:20:56,104 --> 00:20:59,184
Speaker 2: I left your crew has been so much more enriching.

462
00:21:00,104 --> 00:21:04,064
Speaker 2: I was always tired, stressed, so focused on.

463
00:21:03,984 --> 00:21:04,904
Speaker 1: Work, relentless.

464
00:21:04,984 --> 00:21:07,944
Speaker 2: It was just all night long. We weren't we didn't

465
00:21:08,344 --> 00:21:09,824
Speaker 2: so much of what we were doing had to be

466
00:21:09,824 --> 00:21:12,504
Speaker 2: done in person because we just did it just things

467
00:21:12,504 --> 00:21:14,504
Speaker 2: have changed so much. And I also don't think I

468
00:21:14,544 --> 00:21:17,504
Speaker 2: realized when I was young how incredible my opportunity was.

469
00:21:17,504 --> 00:21:19,504
Speaker 2: I was just so focused on work, but I don't

470
00:21:19,504 --> 00:21:22,624
Speaker 2: think I even realized, Like I never demanded to go

471
00:21:22,864 --> 00:21:24,624
Speaker 2: to a museum. I never said, can we spend a

472
00:21:24,704 --> 00:21:26,384
Speaker 2: day doing this? And looking around, it was just like,

473
00:21:26,704 --> 00:21:27,824
Speaker 2: this is the schedule that we're doing it.

474
00:21:27,944 --> 00:21:30,704
Speaker 1: Yeah. I always think about like obviously people traveling for business,

475
00:21:30,744 --> 00:21:34,984
Speaker 1: but I also think about like diplomats, and like they

476
00:21:35,024 --> 00:21:39,664
Speaker 1: are in hotel rooms, office blocks and then just back

477
00:21:39,704 --> 00:21:41,344
Speaker 1: and forth everywhere, and you don't get.

478
00:21:41,224 --> 00:21:43,384
Speaker 2: To choose where you eat. No, that was the other thing.

479
00:21:43,464 --> 00:21:46,824
Speaker 1: Well, I've got a good story. Actually. Weirdly, I sat

480
00:21:46,864 --> 00:21:50,424
Speaker 1: next to Madeleine Albright and had a dinner in DC once,

481
00:21:50,944 --> 00:21:54,904
Speaker 1: and she was obsessed with food, and so she used

482
00:21:54,904 --> 00:21:57,544
Speaker 1: to tell me like when she would go to certain places,

483
00:21:57,584 --> 00:22:00,864
Speaker 1: she would take one security guard with her and sneak

484
00:22:00,904 --> 00:22:03,984
Speaker 1: out the exit or a side exit of the hotel

485
00:22:04,384 --> 00:22:07,784
Speaker 1: and go and eat somewhere that she really wanted to. Particularly,

486
00:22:07,824 --> 00:22:12,144
Speaker 1: she was telling me about like some particular in Budapest

487
00:22:12,184 --> 00:22:15,184
Speaker 1: that she always needed to go. And I always thought

488
00:22:15,224 --> 00:22:17,024
Speaker 1: that was kind of amazing, because I always think about

489
00:22:17,024 --> 00:22:21,384
Speaker 1: like people that are traveling for twenty four hours that

490
00:22:21,464 --> 00:22:24,304
Speaker 1: are just in and out and they're never actually experiencing

491
00:22:24,304 --> 00:22:26,264
Speaker 1: the place. They might have been to one hundred different

492
00:22:26,264 --> 00:22:29,584
Speaker 1: countries and they have absolutely no connection whatsoever to what's

493
00:22:29,624 --> 00:22:29,944
Speaker 1: going on.

494
00:22:30,104 --> 00:22:32,023
Speaker 2: Yeah, And the thing is, oftentimes we were being hosted

495
00:22:32,024 --> 00:22:34,184
Speaker 2: by whatever a factory or mill we were at meeting,

496
00:22:34,624 --> 00:22:36,864
Speaker 2: and like we needed to be respectful. They wanted to

497
00:22:36,864 --> 00:22:38,584
Speaker 2: take us to dinner, they wanted to show us around,

498
00:22:38,704 --> 00:22:41,864
Speaker 2: so we were seeing everything through their lens, which wasn't

499
00:22:41,864 --> 00:22:44,784
Speaker 2: necessarily a creative lens or a design lens. It was

500
00:22:44,864 --> 00:22:47,504
Speaker 2: like a they you know. And also we were often

501
00:22:47,584 --> 00:22:49,864
Speaker 2: the most senior people that were in so they felt

502
00:22:49,904 --> 00:22:51,664
Speaker 2: like they had to take us to the fanciest place.

503
00:22:51,744 --> 00:22:54,344
Speaker 2: And so you don't get that's not culture.

504
00:22:54,824 --> 00:22:56,624
Speaker 1: Well, it's ironic because I think one thing that you

505
00:22:56,664 --> 00:22:58,424
Speaker 1: and I both have in common, and I don't like

506
00:22:58,464 --> 00:23:00,904
Speaker 1: this term, but we'll just use it for like shorthand,

507
00:23:01,304 --> 00:23:03,904
Speaker 1: is the interest in high and low. And when you're

508
00:23:03,944 --> 00:23:06,584
Speaker 1: on those kinds of chips, you're always getting the high.

509
00:23:06,624 --> 00:23:09,984
Speaker 1: That's kind of also very often kind of a soulless thing,

510
00:23:10,264 --> 00:23:12,344
Speaker 1: and it's very inco picture of a place.

511
00:23:12,384 --> 00:23:14,864
Speaker 2: Absolutely. Yeah, And I think you know, when people are

512
00:23:14,864 --> 00:23:18,464
Speaker 2: trying to impress you, it's very buttoned up and manufactured.

513
00:23:18,464 --> 00:23:21,464
Speaker 2: It's there's no room for like the seams to show.

514
00:23:21,504 --> 00:23:23,664
Speaker 2: And I think that's what's more interesting is, you know.

515
00:23:23,704 --> 00:23:25,424
Speaker 2: I remember the first time I went to Japan and

516
00:23:25,464 --> 00:23:27,384
Speaker 2: when we went to our Japanese licensees, she's the woman

517
00:23:27,384 --> 00:23:29,064
Speaker 2: who was like walking so she's like, you have to

518
00:23:29,064 --> 00:23:31,224
Speaker 2: go to Kyoto and I was like, wow, that's not

519
00:23:31,264 --> 00:23:33,784
Speaker 2: really on my dent like, and she's like no, no, no,

520
00:23:33,824 --> 00:23:35,504
Speaker 2: we will work this out and we will take you

521
00:23:35,544 --> 00:23:38,104
Speaker 2: to Kyoto. I got to stay in like Ayroken, and

522
00:23:38,984 --> 00:23:41,984
Speaker 2: I remember like I had a free day and I

523
00:23:42,024 --> 00:23:43,704
Speaker 2: walked down the street and there was this man who

524
00:23:43,704 --> 00:23:46,704
Speaker 2: had this beautiful shop on a corner. All the whole

525
00:23:46,744 --> 00:23:49,344
Speaker 2: side of the corner window was opened up, pushed back,

526
00:23:49,744 --> 00:23:52,264
Speaker 2: and he just made brooms and they were the most

527
00:23:52,584 --> 00:23:54,784
Speaker 2: beautiful brooms I'd ever seen in my life. And I

528
00:23:54,824 --> 00:23:56,704
Speaker 2: wanted to take them home. And she's like you might

529
00:23:56,744 --> 00:23:58,024
Speaker 2: want to think that through, and it's like nope, I'm

530
00:23:58,064 --> 00:24:01,704
Speaker 2: taking And I mean they were he was hand selecting

531
00:24:01,744 --> 00:24:04,544
Speaker 2: and separating all the different reads and I'd never seen

532
00:24:04,584 --> 00:24:06,464
Speaker 2: anything like that in my life. I was young. I

533
00:24:06,504 --> 00:24:08,984
Speaker 2: mean again, like I didn't know that people made rooms,

534
00:24:09,104 --> 00:24:11,864
Speaker 2: and I knew the concept, but just see the level

535
00:24:11,864 --> 00:24:14,864
Speaker 2: of accuracy and attention to detail and how he separated

536
00:24:14,904 --> 00:24:16,984
Speaker 2: all the reeds and all the different styles and the

537
00:24:16,984 --> 00:24:18,544
Speaker 2: different cuts, and then he showed me what you would

538
00:24:18,624 --> 00:24:20,504
Speaker 2: use one room for. And then going to like this

539
00:24:20,584 --> 00:24:22,944
Speaker 2: kimono house that's for royalty. This woman, you know, she

540
00:24:23,024 --> 00:24:25,263
Speaker 2: put this beautiful kimono on me. We wrapped up. I

541
00:24:25,304 --> 00:24:27,384
Speaker 2: took that home. Then I got to go to this

542
00:24:27,464 --> 00:24:31,264
Speaker 2: little restaurant where the Emperor's dine. It was the best

543
00:24:31,264 --> 00:24:35,184
Speaker 2: sushi I've ever had in my entire life. But this

544
00:24:35,384 --> 00:24:38,144
Speaker 2: was the third night in a row where I bumped

545
00:24:38,184 --> 00:24:40,464
Speaker 2: my head because every all the door frames were so low.

546
00:24:40,544 --> 00:24:42,704
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I was gonna say, you probably had

547
00:24:42,704 --> 00:24:43,824
Speaker 1: this phone, Oh my god. Yes.

548
00:24:43,944 --> 00:24:47,184
Speaker 2: And I go to the bathroom in this beautiful, tiny,

549
00:24:47,344 --> 00:24:50,664
Speaker 2: eight seat little restaurant and there's a step down to

550
00:24:50,864 --> 00:24:53,304
Speaker 2: go out to the bathroom, and it's dark, so I

551
00:24:53,304 --> 00:24:55,304
Speaker 2: don't look up because I'm looking down because I can't

552
00:24:55,304 --> 00:24:58,224
Speaker 2: see very well where I'm stepping. And I stepped down

553
00:24:58,304 --> 00:25:00,984
Speaker 2: and there head was a very low bean and the

554
00:25:01,064 --> 00:25:03,624
Speaker 2: step was much deeper than a normal step, so I

555
00:25:03,704 --> 00:25:06,263
Speaker 2: really went down. I woke up, I don't know how

556
00:25:06,304 --> 00:25:09,144
Speaker 2: much longer, with all of the geisha women and that

557
00:25:09,144 --> 00:25:12,144
Speaker 2: were and I woke with them patting me. Now it's like,

558
00:25:12,144 --> 00:25:13,624
Speaker 2: oh my god, I shouldn't. I should have known I

559
00:25:13,664 --> 00:25:16,704
Speaker 2: was gay. I was like, this is amazing. I just

560
00:25:16,704 --> 00:25:19,104
Speaker 2: completely knocked myself out. I went home with a bruise

561
00:25:19,744 --> 00:25:22,184
Speaker 2: and a cut across my forehead, but I loved it.

562
00:25:22,264 --> 00:25:22,984
Speaker 2: I had the best time.

563
00:25:23,304 --> 00:25:27,064
Speaker 1: I often think about like Japan as well going there.

564
00:25:27,224 --> 00:25:30,584
Speaker 1: I always tell people to like plan somewhat, but don't

565
00:25:30,584 --> 00:25:33,984
Speaker 1: plan too much because you'll get fomo. And then the

566
00:25:34,064 --> 00:25:37,184
Speaker 1: amazing thing to do is just to walk in one

567
00:25:37,264 --> 00:25:39,783
Speaker 1: of those things that no one else has told you about.

568
00:25:40,064 --> 00:25:41,984
Speaker 1: It ends up being that thing that you tell a

569
00:25:42,024 --> 00:25:42,744
Speaker 1: story of.

570
00:25:43,224 --> 00:25:45,584
Speaker 2: That's true. I think the thing that lso was so

571
00:25:45,664 --> 00:25:49,424
Speaker 2: interesting is like Japan is that like complete paradox of

572
00:25:49,464 --> 00:25:55,984
Speaker 2: like absolute restraint, like the level of quiet in design,

573
00:25:56,304 --> 00:26:01,104
Speaker 2: in food, in actual experience and process that they are

574
00:26:01,144 --> 00:26:03,144
Speaker 2: able to do. But then like they want to go

575
00:26:03,664 --> 00:26:05,384
Speaker 2: party all night and do karaoke with.

576
00:26:05,344 --> 00:26:07,224
Speaker 1: Outfits and do you do it to karaoke?

577
00:26:08,624 --> 00:26:12,344
Speaker 2: Of course are Daphanie is license. I'll never forget this

578
00:26:12,344 --> 00:26:15,744
Speaker 2: guy named Babara and he was the most serious person

579
00:26:15,784 --> 00:26:18,424
Speaker 2: I ever met until we got to karaoke, and then

580
00:26:18,424 --> 00:26:20,263
Speaker 2: the gloves came off and I turned around and Baba

581
00:26:20,264 --> 00:26:22,064
Speaker 2: I was wearing like a blonde wig and like a

582
00:26:22,104 --> 00:26:24,384
Speaker 2: two two, and I was like, let's go, Like, what

583
00:26:24,424 --> 00:26:28,184
Speaker 2: the fuck is happening? We they just they drank. I know,

584
00:26:28,264 --> 00:26:30,944
Speaker 2: we were there until three in the morning. The entire trip.

585
00:26:31,064 --> 00:26:32,744
Speaker 2: They did not look at me. They always looked at

586
00:26:32,744 --> 00:26:34,144
Speaker 2: the man who was on their trip with us, who

587
00:26:34,184 --> 00:26:36,184
Speaker 2: was not as senior as I was, and they never

588
00:26:36,424 --> 00:26:37,824
Speaker 2: He would always say, you have to ask her, and

589
00:26:37,824 --> 00:26:39,184
Speaker 2: I'd be like, what do you want to It was

590
00:26:39,224 --> 00:26:42,464
Speaker 2: just so ridiculous. Baba and I bonded that night and

591
00:26:42,544 --> 00:26:44,264
Speaker 2: on the table on the dance, I mean, it wasn't

592
00:26:44,464 --> 00:26:44,704
Speaker 2: it wasn't.

593
00:26:45,184 --> 00:26:47,104
Speaker 1: Karaoke song jennalizes.

594
00:26:47,064 --> 00:26:50,064
Speaker 2: I have to say my favorite karaoke song is Tainted

595
00:26:50,104 --> 00:26:50,744
Speaker 2: Love Soft Cell.

596
00:26:50,904 --> 00:26:52,144
Speaker 1: Oh, well that's a good one.

597
00:26:52,424 --> 00:26:55,224
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really good. And also Billy Bay was a

598
00:26:55,264 --> 00:26:57,824
Speaker 2: preacher's son and that along.

599
00:26:58,384 --> 00:27:01,184
Speaker 1: I'm just like, not, I'm not good at karaoke. It's terrible, terrible.

600
00:27:01,184 --> 00:27:03,024
Speaker 1: I only have two songs, Okay, that's all I got.

601
00:27:03,224 --> 00:27:05,784
Speaker 1: I think mine's probably like a Prayer by Madonna and

602
00:27:05,824 --> 00:27:08,944
Speaker 1: that's really but that's acting well yeah, exactly, That's why

603
00:27:08,944 --> 00:27:09,784
Speaker 1: I'm not very good at.

604
00:27:09,944 --> 00:27:11,824
Speaker 2: Say that I picked things that I can. She's saying, yeah,

605
00:27:12,344 --> 00:27:13,704
Speaker 2: and I know the words, so I don't have to

606
00:27:13,864 --> 00:27:14,504
Speaker 2: muddle through.

607
00:27:14,824 --> 00:27:16,064
Speaker 1: Would you go back to Japan?

608
00:27:16,464 --> 00:27:18,544
Speaker 2: I really want to go with the kids, like it's

609
00:27:18,824 --> 00:27:19,504
Speaker 2: my favorite place.

610
00:27:19,544 --> 00:27:21,424
Speaker 1: What would you like show them from things that you

611
00:27:21,504 --> 00:27:23,504
Speaker 1: learned there? Like what do you want to how how

612
00:27:23,544 --> 00:27:24,784
Speaker 1: would they experience Japan?

613
00:27:25,184 --> 00:27:27,624
Speaker 2: To me, what I like is the is the complete

614
00:27:27,984 --> 00:27:31,744
Speaker 2: opposite land of like Tokyo, but is so bustling, and

615
00:27:32,184 --> 00:27:34,864
Speaker 2: you know, all of these different kids who are dressing

616
00:27:34,944 --> 00:27:38,104
Speaker 2: up in this sort of case play, like I could

617
00:27:38,184 --> 00:27:42,464
Speaker 2: not believe the level of like bananas out ridiculous at

618
00:27:42,504 --> 00:27:45,544
Speaker 2: their outfits were on just like a random Tuesday, you know,

619
00:27:45,584 --> 00:27:47,144
Speaker 2: like they did it did not matter it was this

620
00:27:47,184 --> 00:27:48,624
Speaker 2: was not dress update, they were just this was just

621
00:27:48,624 --> 00:27:51,344
Speaker 2: the way they lived like that. And also the sort

622
00:27:51,384 --> 00:27:55,464
Speaker 2: of there's a Tetris feel to Tokyo that just feels

623
00:27:55,504 --> 00:27:57,904
Speaker 2: like everything is so connected and you don't really know

624
00:27:57,904 --> 00:28:00,744
Speaker 2: where one thing starts and stops. And then the complete

625
00:28:00,784 --> 00:28:04,624
Speaker 2: opposite of Kyoto, which is like the most like it

626
00:28:04,744 --> 00:28:07,824
Speaker 2: feels like a breath like the level of respite and

627
00:28:07,904 --> 00:28:12,224
Speaker 2: quiet and intention and beauty and it just feels like,

628
00:28:12,304 --> 00:28:14,504
Speaker 2: this culture is pretty unique in the fact that can

629
00:28:14,544 --> 00:28:17,664
Speaker 2: hold these two completely diametrically opposed feelings as really, I

630
00:28:17,704 --> 00:28:20,984
Speaker 2: just found it so beautiful and charming and alluring, and

631
00:28:21,064 --> 00:28:23,904
Speaker 2: like the people are just so fucking lovely.

632
00:28:24,344 --> 00:28:26,424
Speaker 1: Something that I did on the last time that I

633
00:28:26,504 --> 00:28:29,304
Speaker 1: was there. I love plants, and I would never be

634
00:28:29,344 --> 00:28:31,304
Speaker 1: a good florist, but I really wanted to do an

635
00:28:31,304 --> 00:28:35,304
Speaker 1: ikebana class. Oh god, you should do this, I am yes,

636
00:28:35,904 --> 00:28:39,064
Speaker 1: I don't do it, yeah, for sure. So there's this

637
00:28:40,024 --> 00:28:45,864
Speaker 1: academy of ikebana called Sugetsu, which is Oh, my fucking.

638
00:28:45,544 --> 00:28:48,864
Speaker 2: God, I'm obsessed. And there's a few things from this

639
00:28:48,944 --> 00:28:52,424
Speaker 2: whole world in the Japanese world that is just I

640
00:28:52,424 --> 00:28:54,064
Speaker 2: don't know how did that develop?

641
00:28:54,624 --> 00:28:56,464
Speaker 1: This is the thing that blew my mind. So I

642
00:28:56,984 --> 00:28:59,824
Speaker 1: went there thinking, oh, yeah, well kind of you know,

643
00:28:59,864 --> 00:29:02,304
Speaker 1: I know that there's an art to it. Of course,

644
00:29:02,344 --> 00:29:05,664
Speaker 1: So I get there. This was a proper class and

645
00:29:05,704 --> 00:29:08,024
Speaker 1: they were serious, and so I was there with all

646
00:29:08,064 --> 00:29:11,664
Speaker 1: of like the kind of mature age student auntie, Yeah,

647
00:29:11,704 --> 00:29:14,984
Speaker 1: you would love it right in. I mean, it was unreal.

648
00:29:15,264 --> 00:29:17,704
Speaker 1: And then so you arrive there they have buckets and

649
00:29:17,744 --> 00:29:20,664
Speaker 1: buckets and buckets of all different kinds of foliage, all

650
00:29:20,704 --> 00:29:22,824
Speaker 1: different kinds of flowers, and you sat up at the

651
00:29:22,864 --> 00:29:25,664
Speaker 1: station and you know, you make your thing. You've got

652
00:29:25,704 --> 00:29:28,224
Speaker 1: all of the rules. They're very kind of not in

653
00:29:28,304 --> 00:29:32,144
Speaker 1: English actually barely any translation, so you kind of that's unhing.

654
00:29:31,984 --> 00:29:35,384
Speaker 2: Too, learning when people don't speak your language. Yes, you

655
00:29:35,424 --> 00:29:37,304
Speaker 2: actually get down to the fundamentals of what you really

656
00:29:37,384 --> 00:29:38,624
Speaker 2: need to understand.

657
00:29:38,384 --> 00:29:40,504
Speaker 1: Correct and they because they're look at you dead in

658
00:29:40,504 --> 00:29:42,704
Speaker 1: the eye, and there's a calm thing and there's a

659
00:29:42,744 --> 00:29:45,664
Speaker 1: guiding hand. And that was really good for me because

660
00:29:45,664 --> 00:29:47,544
Speaker 1: I'm sure the theory would have been lost on me.

661
00:29:47,984 --> 00:29:49,784
Speaker 1: I mean, I just would it's my dream to go

662
00:29:49,824 --> 00:29:52,344
Speaker 1: and like become a student. And so gets to.

663
00:29:52,464 --> 00:29:54,584
Speaker 2: There's I was working with a project on a project

664
00:29:54,584 --> 00:29:57,784
Speaker 2: for another friend and my deep dive I ended up

665
00:29:57,824 --> 00:30:02,024
Speaker 2: also finding this leather like tannery and then also like

666
00:30:03,224 --> 00:30:04,864
Speaker 2: a I don't know what you would call it, an

667
00:30:04,864 --> 00:30:09,344
Speaker 2: actually for leather working and this man made the most

668
00:30:09,864 --> 00:30:14,664
Speaker 2: exquisite like a dog accessories and I found him and

669
00:30:14,704 --> 00:30:16,184
Speaker 2: I reached out to him and I'm like, would you

670
00:30:16,704 --> 00:30:18,664
Speaker 2: be at all willing because I have two dogs? And

671
00:30:18,704 --> 00:30:20,264
Speaker 2: I was like is there and he's like, oh no,

672
00:30:20,304 --> 00:30:22,664
Speaker 2: I was studying with the Japanese master, and these are

673
00:30:22,704 --> 00:30:24,264
Speaker 2: just what I made with the Japanese master. I'm like, so,

674
00:30:24,264 --> 00:30:25,744
Speaker 2: can I find the Japanese He's like, well, you have

675
00:30:25,784 --> 00:30:27,224
Speaker 2: to be there for four months? And I was like,

676
00:30:29,384 --> 00:30:30,624
Speaker 2: and then he's like, and it's and so I kept

677
00:30:30,624 --> 00:30:32,464
Speaker 2: going and kept asking wash He's like, and it's this expensive.

678
00:30:32,464 --> 00:30:34,744
Speaker 2: And I was like, Oh, to work with this man

679
00:30:34,784 --> 00:30:37,264
Speaker 2: for four months costs almost like a half a million dollars.

680
00:30:37,264 --> 00:30:37,744
Speaker 1: Oh my god.

681
00:30:37,824 --> 00:30:39,624
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, clearly this man had a lot of money.

682
00:30:39,624 --> 00:30:42,504
Speaker 2: I'm not doing but yeah, he only he only trains

683
00:30:42,824 --> 00:30:44,424
Speaker 2: like two people a year, and this is just what

684
00:30:44,464 --> 00:30:45,984
Speaker 2: he does, and he's a master and he teaches and

685
00:30:45,984 --> 00:30:48,824
Speaker 2: the workmanship was insane. But like, that's the kind of

686
00:30:48,864 --> 00:30:50,704
Speaker 2: thing that you can find in Japan that you kind

687
00:30:50,744 --> 00:30:52,024
Speaker 2: of can't find anywhere else.

688
00:30:52,144 --> 00:30:55,264
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's like, I'm those living crafts or

689
00:30:55,384 --> 00:30:58,904
Speaker 1: living artisan ship is very interesting to me. I think

690
00:30:58,944 --> 00:31:01,744
Speaker 1: there's like a role that travel can play in the

691
00:31:01,784 --> 00:31:07,224
Speaker 1: world of like maintaining a businesses for like I guess

692
00:31:07,304 --> 00:31:10,424
Speaker 1: in Japan, maybe it's a handful of other places India too.

693
00:31:10,744 --> 00:31:13,984
Speaker 1: You know, those crafts are still living businesses, so they

694
00:31:13,984 --> 00:31:18,304
Speaker 1: haven't become like tourist souvenir making. But there is a

695
00:31:18,344 --> 00:31:21,744
Speaker 1: way I think that you can like have people experience

696
00:31:21,824 --> 00:31:25,344
Speaker 1: those things from a travel perspective that then adds value

697
00:31:25,904 --> 00:31:29,024
Speaker 1: kind of in back home, if that makes sense.

698
00:31:29,024 --> 00:31:30,824
Speaker 2: I like so. But I also like the fact that

699
00:31:30,864 --> 00:31:33,264
Speaker 2: you can't just do it as a souvenir experience, like

700
00:31:33,944 --> 00:31:37,344
Speaker 2: it requires months and honestly it looks like it.

701
00:31:37,624 --> 00:31:37,744
Speaker 1: You know.

702
00:31:37,784 --> 00:31:39,144
Speaker 2: I remember when I saw you said it was a

703
00:31:39,144 --> 00:31:40,624
Speaker 2: class like I somehow in the back of my mind

704
00:31:40,704 --> 00:31:41,784
Speaker 2: was like, oh, I can do that, and I'm like,

705
00:31:41,984 --> 00:31:43,904
Speaker 2: I probably couldn't it, would you know. I went to

706
00:31:44,024 --> 00:31:46,304
Speaker 2: art school for four years, and I think about like

707
00:31:46,744 --> 00:31:50,064
Speaker 2: the difference of my draping and pattern making when I

708
00:31:50,104 --> 00:31:52,544
Speaker 2: finished my schooling versus when I first started, like it

709
00:31:52,624 --> 00:31:54,864
Speaker 2: took months for me to get the touch. And I

710
00:31:54,944 --> 00:31:57,584
Speaker 2: also think that they have a different perspective on style,

711
00:31:57,664 --> 00:32:00,024
Speaker 2: like they're not willing to make it ugly.

712
00:32:00,424 --> 00:32:02,344
Speaker 1: Well. The other thing as well is that like I've

713
00:32:02,384 --> 00:32:05,224
Speaker 1: never been, I haven't been this kind of felt this judged,

714
00:32:05,264 --> 00:32:07,304
Speaker 1: but judged in a good way. As when the lady

715
00:32:07,344 --> 00:32:10,424
Speaker 1: came around, Like with my work, my boyfriend's and architecture,

716
00:32:10,424 --> 00:32:12,624
Speaker 1: his was like they were very much here is a

717
00:32:12,744 --> 00:32:15,384
Speaker 1: healing Yeah, and I'm supposed to be the person that

718
00:32:15,504 --> 00:32:17,944
Speaker 1: likes the gardens and the plants. Anyway, she came around

719
00:32:18,024 --> 00:32:21,984
Speaker 1: and I was like sitting up straight and uh no,

720
00:32:22,104 --> 00:32:24,544
Speaker 1: and I think like the other thing about doing those

721
00:32:24,584 --> 00:32:26,864
Speaker 1: things in the proper ways that not everyone gets a

722
00:32:26,864 --> 00:32:29,784
Speaker 1: gold medal, you know, and that's and she was like, no,

723
00:32:29,864 --> 00:32:31,984
Speaker 1: that wasn't particularly good, but this was kind of good.

724
00:32:32,064 --> 00:32:35,264
Speaker 1: And I don't know, I recommend anyone if you've got

725
00:32:35,384 --> 00:32:38,464
Speaker 1: like two full days going and doing us to get

726
00:32:38,504 --> 00:32:41,784
Speaker 1: to Ikey Buyer Class is definitely something that you could do.

727
00:32:41,824 --> 00:32:44,384
Speaker 1: And you could deal with the kids actually too, that's teenagers.

728
00:32:44,824 --> 00:32:47,064
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I may in particular would love it. And

729
00:32:47,104 --> 00:32:49,264
Speaker 2: the other one I love is Jabari. Have you ever?

730
00:32:49,344 --> 00:32:52,224
Speaker 1: I mean no, I haven't been tied up Shabari style,

731
00:32:52,264 --> 00:32:53,864
Speaker 1: but I'm curious to know what that is.

732
00:32:53,944 --> 00:32:57,184
Speaker 2: It's actually the thing is it looks sexual, but it's

733
00:32:57,304 --> 00:32:59,024
Speaker 2: kind of I mean, it can be if you want

734
00:32:59,064 --> 00:33:02,784
Speaker 2: it to be, but it actually is like this intimate experience,

735
00:33:02,784 --> 00:33:08,024
Speaker 2: Like it's very intimate and like it requires like feelings,

736
00:33:08,104 --> 00:33:10,944
Speaker 2: which is it exactly? So basically it's there's a system

737
00:33:11,224 --> 00:33:14,184
Speaker 2: ropes and it's like you're pushing and pulling and then

738
00:33:14,264 --> 00:33:16,464
Speaker 2: laying over and then twisting and touch and you're not

739
00:33:16,544 --> 00:33:19,344
Speaker 2: hurting the person. You're sort of putting them into a

740
00:33:19,864 --> 00:33:21,944
Speaker 2: more constricted or sort of but the end results are

741
00:33:21,984 --> 00:33:24,984
Speaker 2: so beautiful and the process of having it done it

742
00:33:25,024 --> 00:33:30,704
Speaker 2: feels actually incredibly intimate. It's not about hurting someone, it's

743
00:33:30,704 --> 00:33:33,664
Speaker 2: not about controlling them. It's about this sort of interplay

744
00:33:33,704 --> 00:33:37,704
Speaker 2: of how you adorn someone and how this person responds

745
00:33:37,744 --> 00:33:40,024
Speaker 2: and how you move them, and it's about power and

746
00:33:40,504 --> 00:33:43,184
Speaker 2: you know, submission. But I've seen people do it and

747
00:33:43,544 --> 00:33:45,424
Speaker 2: it is very hot, it's very sexy, so it's it

748
00:33:45,424 --> 00:33:46,264
Speaker 2: could lead to sex.

749
00:33:46,584 --> 00:33:49,064
Speaker 1: Well that's in your I think it's like Japan, like

750
00:33:49,104 --> 00:33:51,944
Speaker 1: the doorway is kind of through ritual, right, That's what

751
00:33:52,024 --> 00:33:54,624
Speaker 1: I always see, Like almost anything, it's through.

752
00:33:54,504 --> 00:33:57,304
Speaker 2: Like a ritual. If it's like the ritual also leads

753
00:33:57,304 --> 00:33:59,584
Speaker 2: often to something else like that, there's so much ritual

754
00:33:59,624 --> 00:34:02,024
Speaker 2: that it actually speaks to additional rituals or how like

755
00:34:02,144 --> 00:34:05,264
Speaker 2: they start with one to translate to another that touches

756
00:34:05,264 --> 00:34:07,904
Speaker 2: something I know. So I just love the country so

757
00:34:07,984 --> 00:34:08,823
Speaker 2: much I want to go back.

758
00:34:08,944 --> 00:34:11,264
Speaker 1: So I think Japan is sort of like Italy me

759
00:34:11,344 --> 00:34:15,664
Speaker 1: it's so dense, yes, endless, Yes, just totally endless.

760
00:34:15,784 --> 00:34:17,743
Speaker 2: That's what I love every time I go, especially if

761
00:34:17,784 --> 00:34:19,984
Speaker 2: you are with another person who lives there, Like I

762
00:34:20,104 --> 00:34:21,704
Speaker 2: like being with people who live there because they always

763
00:34:21,703 --> 00:34:24,343
Speaker 2: show you their version and people live so differently, and

764
00:34:24,384 --> 00:34:27,984
Speaker 2: like getting to see, you know, someone who's incredibly active,

765
00:34:28,064 --> 00:34:30,584
Speaker 2: like they have a tendency to want different things, or

766
00:34:30,623 --> 00:34:32,664
Speaker 2: as someone who's a little bit more of a hermit

767
00:34:32,703 --> 00:34:34,743
Speaker 2: will take you to all their little local places. It's

768
00:34:34,864 --> 00:34:36,384
Speaker 2: a totally different experience.

769
00:34:36,424 --> 00:34:40,264
Speaker 1: I love you and your Patna casts like travel together.

770
00:34:40,384 --> 00:34:42,064
Speaker 2: Well, I mean it's interesting. Both of us thought we

771
00:34:42,064 --> 00:34:44,383
Speaker 2: didn't want to travel anymore. I think because we both

772
00:34:44,384 --> 00:34:47,104
Speaker 2: had traveled for work so much, and then when COVID hit,

773
00:34:47,183 --> 00:34:49,584
Speaker 2: it was such a good rest that we were both

774
00:34:49,663 --> 00:34:50,984
Speaker 2: kind of relaxed and we're like, I don't need to

775
00:34:51,024 --> 00:34:52,544
Speaker 2: go anywhere. We can just go to the beach. But

776
00:34:52,703 --> 00:34:56,743
Speaker 2: now that we've been traveling more together for fun and

777
00:34:56,783 --> 00:34:59,983
Speaker 2: for either a wedding or an event or like going

778
00:35:00,024 --> 00:35:03,303
Speaker 2: to Italy for you know, an opening party for ill

779
00:35:03,384 --> 00:35:06,423
Speaker 2: Pelican or something like that, Like we've been having more fun.

780
00:35:06,544 --> 00:35:08,904
Speaker 2: So I think traveling with someone who has the same taste.

781
00:35:09,064 --> 00:35:13,303
Speaker 2: Like food profile and energy profile is critical. You have

782
00:35:13,384 --> 00:35:15,903
Speaker 2: to have the same desire she has that. Thank god. Yeah,

783
00:35:15,904 --> 00:35:18,024
Speaker 2: Like we will share every meal. We always want to

784
00:35:18,024 --> 00:35:20,424
Speaker 2: say to eat the same things. And I literally was

785
00:35:20,464 --> 00:35:22,503
Speaker 2: sitting next to a couple at Obuco on the beach

786
00:35:22,743 --> 00:35:24,263
Speaker 2: this past weekend and the two of them were talking

787
00:35:24,263 --> 00:35:26,183
Speaker 2: and like one of them is vegan, the other one's

788
00:35:26,223 --> 00:35:29,903
Speaker 2: gluten free. Like no, they couldn't share a single thing night. Man,

789
00:35:30,544 --> 00:35:31,703
Speaker 2: I don't know what I would do.

790
00:35:32,064 --> 00:35:34,544
Speaker 1: So you do you enjoy traveling for food or it's

791
00:35:34,544 --> 00:35:37,863
Speaker 1: a big part of Oh, I really, I love it.

792
00:35:37,864 --> 00:35:39,623
Speaker 1: It's like my favorite thing. I remember when I was young,

793
00:35:40,344 --> 00:35:41,623
Speaker 1: they didn't have a lot of money and so my

794
00:35:41,663 --> 00:35:44,303
Speaker 1: mom took us. There's this thing called Shade's I mean,

795
00:35:44,464 --> 00:35:45,984
Speaker 1: which is do you have you ever heard of this?

796
00:35:46,504 --> 00:35:49,343
Speaker 1: So Shade's I mean translated means house of friends. And

797
00:35:49,504 --> 00:35:52,584
Speaker 1: this was again before the internet, and my mom had this.

798
00:35:52,663 --> 00:35:55,064
Speaker 1: It was a booklet and all of these chateaus in

799
00:35:55,104 --> 00:35:56,823
Speaker 1: France had been passed down to these families. Many of

800
00:35:56,824 --> 00:35:59,903
Speaker 1: these families can't afford to maintain them, Oh okay, because

801
00:35:59,944 --> 00:36:02,343
Speaker 1: they were passed down over years and these you know

802
00:36:02,384 --> 00:36:04,623
Speaker 1: they're farmers a lot of times, and so they would

803
00:36:04,703 --> 00:36:07,743
Speaker 1: offer up rooms and their chateau and you could come,

804
00:36:07,824 --> 00:36:10,504
Speaker 1: and my mom would always opt for the dinner. And

805
00:36:11,263 --> 00:36:15,623
Speaker 1: my brother and I hated mushrooms like and goat cheese.

806
00:36:15,623 --> 00:36:17,343
Speaker 1: The idea of eating the goat cheese was like the

807
00:36:17,384 --> 00:36:20,703
Speaker 1: most like profoundly disgusting thing we could possibly imagine. But

808
00:36:20,743 --> 00:36:23,304
Speaker 1: we'd probably only had mushrooms like on a slimy pizza

809
00:36:23,783 --> 00:36:26,024
Speaker 1: or like out of a can that like where they

810
00:36:26,024 --> 00:36:28,224
Speaker 1: were in liquid, So like no joke, like no reason.

811
00:36:28,263 --> 00:36:30,223
Speaker 1: We didn't like make sense that we didn't like the mushrooms.

812
00:36:30,424 --> 00:36:32,584
Speaker 1: So we stayed with this one family from Shida, I

813
00:36:32,584 --> 00:36:35,943
Speaker 1: mean this beautiful and house and Madame La March, who's

814
00:36:35,984 --> 00:36:39,663
Speaker 1: the made trick of the house. She'd grown all these mushrooms,

815
00:36:39,703 --> 00:36:42,663
Speaker 1: and her husband had goats and he made goat cheese

816
00:36:43,104 --> 00:36:46,064
Speaker 1: and she made this mushroom and goat cheese tart and

817
00:36:46,904 --> 00:36:50,743
Speaker 1: my brother and I were like ooh, and my mom

818
00:36:50,783 --> 00:36:52,504
Speaker 1: looked at us and she said, you are going to

819
00:36:52,623 --> 00:36:56,183
Speaker 1: eat a bite? Like, I mean, I've never been so

820
00:36:56,223 --> 00:36:57,823
Speaker 1: scared of my mother. I was the one my mom

821
00:36:57,904 --> 00:37:00,703
Speaker 1: was not that never been so scared. And my brother

822
00:37:00,743 --> 00:37:02,064
Speaker 1: and I took a bite of the tart and it

823
00:37:02,183 --> 00:37:04,183
Speaker 1: was it was like sex. It was the best thing

824
00:37:04,183 --> 00:37:06,623
Speaker 1: I'd ever had in my life. It was unfucking real.

825
00:37:06,824 --> 00:37:09,663
Speaker 1: She'd made the dough, goddamn goats, made the cheese. The

826
00:37:09,743 --> 00:37:12,263
Speaker 1: mushrooms came from the backyard. She picked the herbs from

827
00:37:12,303 --> 00:37:15,863
Speaker 1: her yard. That mushroom tart that was gone, the entire thing,

828
00:37:15,904 --> 00:37:19,384
Speaker 1: it was massive. That's peak good French food, that specific

829
00:37:19,424 --> 00:37:21,823
Speaker 1: thing in the countryside, like that's exactly what you.

830
00:37:22,143 --> 00:37:24,984
Speaker 2: It was unrecognizable food for me. I mean, I was

831
00:37:24,984 --> 00:37:26,424
Speaker 2: eating cuisine.

832
00:37:26,024 --> 00:37:29,183
Speaker 1: First kind of food doorway in.

833
00:37:29,584 --> 00:37:32,104
Speaker 2: It was the first moment where I understood that a

834
00:37:32,143 --> 00:37:35,864
Speaker 2: tomato wasn't just a tomato, like the beefy, green mealing

835
00:37:35,944 --> 00:37:38,223
Speaker 2: ones that I got from our California grocery store were

836
00:37:38,223 --> 00:37:41,183
Speaker 2: not like, that's not what they could look like. That

837
00:37:41,263 --> 00:37:44,544
Speaker 2: basil was a leaf, not a dried up little powder.

838
00:37:44,584 --> 00:37:44,663
Speaker 1: Like.

839
00:37:45,024 --> 00:37:46,703
Speaker 2: I'd never been exposed to food like that. We just

840
00:37:46,703 --> 00:37:48,864
Speaker 2: didn't have anything like that. And my mom's a piano

841
00:37:48,864 --> 00:37:51,383
Speaker 2: teacher and single mom. You know, I was eating lean

842
00:37:51,424 --> 00:37:52,944
Speaker 2: cuisine because she was teaching.

843
00:37:53,064 --> 00:37:54,024
Speaker 1: She took you on a trip.

844
00:37:54,464 --> 00:37:57,303
Speaker 2: She met my father and in France and she had

845
00:37:57,344 --> 00:37:59,663
Speaker 2: a love affair with France and so this was her

846
00:37:59,663 --> 00:38:01,383
Speaker 2: way of like exposing us. So we would we went

847
00:38:01,384 --> 00:38:03,183
Speaker 2: to Shade Lay every summer when I was a kid,

848
00:38:03,544 --> 00:38:05,784
Speaker 2: and they would you know, we stayed with the Marks

849
00:38:05,824 --> 00:38:06,623
Speaker 2: and the Nolo's And.

850
00:38:07,504 --> 00:38:08,424
Speaker 1: Does that still exist.

851
00:38:08,904 --> 00:38:11,143
Speaker 2: No, I think Airbnb and all that has Really.

852
00:38:11,344 --> 00:38:13,584
Speaker 1: That's such abama, That's so great.

853
00:38:13,384 --> 00:38:15,024
Speaker 2: Because I think what is the difference is like if

854
00:38:15,024 --> 00:38:15,424
Speaker 2: I didn't know.

855
00:38:15,424 --> 00:38:17,304
Speaker 1: That, I love finding out about these things.

856
00:38:17,424 --> 00:38:20,383
Speaker 2: So local part was so nice, like staying with the family, right,

857
00:38:20,824 --> 00:38:23,224
Speaker 2: and then we would all go outside and play bool

858
00:38:23,344 --> 00:38:25,943
Speaker 2: after dinner in like the sunset, and it was just

859
00:38:26,183 --> 00:38:28,783
Speaker 2: so romantic, you know, like I didn't know life could

860
00:38:28,824 --> 00:38:30,863
Speaker 2: be beautiful like that. I'd never seen anything like that.

861
00:38:30,904 --> 00:38:33,504
Speaker 2: I mean they were all just drinking wine and laughing.

862
00:38:33,904 --> 00:38:35,623
Speaker 2: The neighbors would come over and we would just play

863
00:38:35,663 --> 00:38:37,064
Speaker 2: booll and I didn't need to talk. I didn't need

864
00:38:37,064 --> 00:38:38,584
Speaker 2: to speak the language, My brother didn't need to be

865
00:38:38,904 --> 00:38:40,303
Speaker 2: we didn't need to be good at anything. It was

866
00:38:40,344 --> 00:38:42,703
Speaker 2: just so fucking fun and I loved it. It was

867
00:38:42,743 --> 00:38:44,024
Speaker 2: really so romantic.

868
00:38:44,183 --> 00:38:46,344
Speaker 1: Was your interested in that in like style and fashion?

869
00:38:46,504 --> 00:38:49,303
Speaker 1: Was that kind of did that come from any of

870
00:38:49,303 --> 00:38:51,863
Speaker 1: that trip or was that more like this is the

871
00:38:51,944 --> 00:38:55,863
Speaker 1: imagined reality from like your where you where you were

872
00:38:55,864 --> 00:38:57,744
Speaker 1: in terms of your childhood, like it was it a

873
00:38:57,783 --> 00:39:00,864
Speaker 1: fantasy or did you brew? Like was were those trips

874
00:39:00,904 --> 00:39:02,023
Speaker 1: influential in that way?

875
00:39:02,104 --> 00:39:04,623
Speaker 2: I mean, I think they were influential in shaping my

876
00:39:04,783 --> 00:39:07,544
Speaker 2: view of style. I think it wasn't what drove me

877
00:39:07,663 --> 00:39:10,783
Speaker 2: to be interested in it, but there's no question it

878
00:39:11,183 --> 00:39:14,663
Speaker 2: like shifted the aperture completely. I grew up with in California,

879
00:39:14,663 --> 00:39:17,863
Speaker 2: with like Baywatch and all of these like everyone looked

880
00:39:17,904 --> 00:39:20,184
Speaker 2: the same. Every girl was blonde, every girl had big boobs.

881
00:39:20,183 --> 00:39:20,544
Speaker 1: Everyone.

882
00:39:20,743 --> 00:39:22,903
Speaker 2: If you weren't blonde hair, blue eyes, big boobs, you

883
00:39:22,944 --> 00:39:26,383
Speaker 2: were not cute. And my all of my friends were hot.

884
00:39:26,464 --> 00:39:28,864
Speaker 2: I was so not hot. But you know, I remember

885
00:39:28,984 --> 00:39:32,263
Speaker 2: so distinctly. One of the daughters had long hair. Sheh

886
00:39:32,303 --> 00:39:33,903
Speaker 2: had it in this little French knot, and she wore

887
00:39:33,944 --> 00:39:37,424
Speaker 2: this like red lip, bright pink cheek. You know, I

888
00:39:37,464 --> 00:39:40,663
Speaker 2: grew all the girls were like black eyeliner, and I'd

889
00:39:40,703 --> 00:39:42,823
Speaker 2: never seen a younger girl. She wasn't. I mean, she

890
00:39:42,864 --> 00:39:45,024
Speaker 2: was probably eighteen wearing a red lip. But it was

891
00:39:45,384 --> 00:39:48,143
Speaker 2: the sun setting again. I should have known I was okay,

892
00:39:49,504 --> 00:39:53,303
Speaker 2: all these moments and she was just wearing jeans and

893
00:39:53,344 --> 00:39:56,464
Speaker 2: a big, oversized white shirt. And you know, again like

894
00:39:56,743 --> 00:40:02,343
Speaker 2: I didn't connect real people effortless beauty to I just

895
00:40:02,344 --> 00:40:04,223
Speaker 2: didn't think it was real. It was the first time

896
00:40:04,504 --> 00:40:06,983
Speaker 2: I started to understand I just had been so part

897
00:40:06,984 --> 00:40:10,863
Speaker 2: of like processed, manipulated beauty. You know. There was a

898
00:40:11,143 --> 00:40:14,863
Speaker 2: this young Asian girl who her parents I think were Filipino,

899
00:40:15,344 --> 00:40:17,464
Speaker 2: and they were living in the south of France, so

900
00:40:17,584 --> 00:40:20,423
Speaker 2: she spoke French, but she was bronzed, and you know,

901
00:40:20,584 --> 00:40:22,743
Speaker 2: it was she was the most beautiful creature I'd ever seen.

902
00:40:22,743 --> 00:40:24,703
Speaker 2: Her hair was sort of soft and wavy, and she

903
00:40:24,703 --> 00:40:26,663
Speaker 2: would come over speaking French, and I just feel like.

904
00:40:26,864 --> 00:40:28,903
Speaker 1: But it was just a fun thing as well, Like

905
00:40:29,464 --> 00:40:33,183
Speaker 1: when you're talking about people's trip memories, like sometimes it's

906
00:40:33,223 --> 00:40:36,904
Speaker 1: hard to pass out, you know, not what the truth

907
00:40:36,944 --> 00:40:38,663
Speaker 1: of it is, Like there's a real truth in all

908
00:40:38,703 --> 00:40:42,544
Speaker 1: of it, but the nostalgia and romance of these trips

909
00:40:42,623 --> 00:40:46,223
Speaker 1: kind of they they live large in our stories, right,

910
00:40:46,303 --> 00:40:48,504
Speaker 1: It's and it's really nice to reflect on them because

911
00:40:48,504 --> 00:40:51,464
Speaker 1: you kind of understand where you where you've come from.

912
00:40:51,824 --> 00:40:52,024
Speaker 1: You know.

913
00:40:52,064 --> 00:40:54,303
Speaker 2: I remember I had a pen pal which is. I

914
00:40:54,344 --> 00:40:56,343
Speaker 2: went to a French school for three years and to

915
00:40:56,384 --> 00:40:59,984
Speaker 2: bet a pen pal, and I remember we did a

916
00:41:00,024 --> 00:41:03,144
Speaker 2: trip where we did in exchange, and I remember sitting

917
00:41:03,183 --> 00:41:04,863
Speaker 2: down the first night and my mom had made like

918
00:41:05,703 --> 00:41:09,303
Speaker 2: what we call meat loaf, but it wasn't really meat love.

919
00:41:09,303 --> 00:41:10,504
Speaker 2: I don't really know what it was, but it was

920
00:41:10,504 --> 00:41:12,823
Speaker 2: like a meat love adjacent thing. And she was like, oh,

921
00:41:12,864 --> 00:41:17,144
Speaker 2: it's diodpa dear bread. And my mom goes to the fridge.

922
00:41:17,183 --> 00:41:18,424
Speaker 2: And my mom had spent a lot of time in

923
00:41:18,424 --> 00:41:20,223
Speaker 2: French until she knew what this girl wanted. But my

924
00:41:20,263 --> 00:41:22,064
Speaker 2: mom was like, I'm sorry, but this is what we have.

925
00:41:22,183 --> 00:41:24,864
Speaker 2: And it was like wonderbread, which is not even really bread.

926
00:41:25,344 --> 00:41:27,663
Speaker 2: And I will never forget going to her house and

927
00:41:27,864 --> 00:41:32,143
Speaker 2: the first night, all the eating outside under the sky,

928
00:41:33,263 --> 00:41:36,943
Speaker 2: all family style, this incredible meal, the bread that they

929
00:41:36,944 --> 00:41:39,463
Speaker 2: had gotten from the bakery. That morning, all the kids

930
00:41:39,464 --> 00:41:42,304
Speaker 2: got a little glass of wine. They basically did wine

931
00:41:42,303 --> 00:41:43,743
Speaker 2: based on your age, so it was, you know, an

932
00:41:43,743 --> 00:41:45,944
Speaker 2: ascending order, so they were training the kids had a drink.

933
00:41:46,104 --> 00:41:47,024
Speaker 1: So much better idea.

934
00:41:47,143 --> 00:41:48,823
Speaker 2: Yeah, they were all getting a little bits and it

935
00:41:48,824 --> 00:41:51,183
Speaker 2: was just and they passed the bread and I took

936
00:41:51,183 --> 00:41:52,464
Speaker 2: a bite out of the bread and I was like,

937
00:41:52,864 --> 00:41:56,783
Speaker 2: oh God, Like the shame I felt around my wonderbread

938
00:41:57,384 --> 00:41:59,383
Speaker 2: was real. I was like, I can't believe this girl

939
00:41:59,384 --> 00:42:01,504
Speaker 2: has been eating this bread and we gave her a wonderbread.

940
00:42:01,743 --> 00:42:04,584
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, then you've got a taste for the

941
00:42:04,984 --> 00:42:06,663
Speaker 1: for the rest of your life. I think that's important.

942
00:42:06,743 --> 00:42:09,183
Speaker 2: Can you imagine what her experience was like? Yeah, you

943
00:42:09,223 --> 00:42:10,064
Speaker 2: should interview her.

944
00:42:11,223 --> 00:42:13,544
Speaker 1: Do you go to Paris quite often? Just speaking of France,

945
00:42:13,584 --> 00:42:16,384
Speaker 1: like that's just a very different France than what you're describing.

946
00:42:16,904 --> 00:42:19,143
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the south of France is I mean,

947
00:42:19,143 --> 00:42:21,464
Speaker 2: it's so different. Yeah, But I love Paris, I do.

948
00:42:21,944 --> 00:42:24,663
Speaker 2: I do. The architecture like slays me. I just cannot

949
00:42:24,824 --> 00:42:27,823
Speaker 2: like get enough of those big French open windows and

950
00:42:27,864 --> 00:42:30,183
Speaker 2: them just I don't know, there's something about the rhythm

951
00:42:30,263 --> 00:42:33,424
Speaker 2: of Paris that just slays me. I never get told.

952
00:42:33,623 --> 00:42:36,663
Speaker 1: And you like go multiple times a year or just sort.

953
00:42:36,464 --> 00:42:38,463
Speaker 2: Of you know, Cass got a job, so I went

954
00:42:38,464 --> 00:42:39,984
Speaker 2: with her. My friend got married there, so I went

955
00:42:40,024 --> 00:42:42,663
Speaker 2: with him, went with her for that, and then the

956
00:42:42,743 --> 00:42:44,584
Speaker 2: year before I didn't go, Like it just doesn't there's

957
00:42:44,623 --> 00:42:47,463
Speaker 2: not like a I go every years. It's just if

958
00:42:47,504 --> 00:42:48,504
Speaker 2: I have an opportunity to go.

959
00:42:48,824 --> 00:42:52,304
Speaker 1: I go one place that I know is like important

960
00:42:52,303 --> 00:42:54,544
Speaker 1: to you, but that I've never been to is Antwerp.

961
00:42:54,783 --> 00:42:56,783
Speaker 2: One of the reasons that we sorted going is I

962
00:42:56,783 --> 00:42:59,024
Speaker 2: think a lot of the work I did was also

963
00:42:59,064 --> 00:43:01,544
Speaker 2: the store design, so it wasn't just the clothing, but

964
00:43:01,584 --> 00:43:03,263
Speaker 2: like what does the store look like? And there was

965
00:43:03,303 --> 00:43:05,904
Speaker 2: this little hotel called Dili to have ever heard of

966
00:43:05,904 --> 00:43:09,663
Speaker 2: this place? I mean, just the most beautiful little hotel.

967
00:43:09,783 --> 00:43:12,743
Speaker 2: And we wanted to see Tree store. My boss at

968
00:43:12,743 --> 00:43:14,544
Speaker 2: the time was obsessed with trees, and I mean I

969
00:43:14,623 --> 00:43:17,104
Speaker 2: was as well, and just get a sense of like

970
00:43:17,143 --> 00:43:19,904
Speaker 2: what the fashion scene felt like it was. You know,

971
00:43:19,944 --> 00:43:22,064
Speaker 2: it was unusual because it's like Endemy Loosers, you said,

972
00:43:22,064 --> 00:43:24,464
Speaker 2: Dirk Bickenburgs, which again was so different. They had this

973
00:43:24,584 --> 00:43:27,104
Speaker 2: crazy store that the tree Store. But then there are

974
00:43:27,104 --> 00:43:30,424
Speaker 2: all these beautiful little furniture stores in this hotel. I

975
00:43:30,424 --> 00:43:33,263
Speaker 2: will never forget. I came downstairs to breakfast, and I

976
00:43:33,344 --> 00:43:36,104
Speaker 2: do this now and my kids remark on it, which

977
00:43:36,143 --> 00:43:38,584
Speaker 2: I think is interesting. I came downstairs to breakfast and

978
00:43:38,584 --> 00:43:40,784
Speaker 2: they had a candle lit at like nine in the morning,

979
00:43:41,104 --> 00:43:44,663
Speaker 2: just a taper candle, one leg like long and I

980
00:43:44,743 --> 00:43:47,503
Speaker 2: was like, that's the chekeest fucking thing I've ever seen

981
00:43:47,504 --> 00:43:50,064
Speaker 2: in my life. And so now every morning I like candles.

982
00:43:50,223 --> 00:43:51,544
Speaker 1: What's the colors of Antwep.

983
00:43:52,143 --> 00:43:56,984
Speaker 2: It's literally like bone almond cream and then a deep walnut.

984
00:43:57,064 --> 00:43:57,263
Speaker 1: It is.

985
00:43:58,263 --> 00:44:01,464
Speaker 2: It is such a beautiful city. It is not that colorful,

986
00:44:01,743 --> 00:44:04,344
Speaker 2: but they have these beautiful open squares and the people

987
00:44:04,344 --> 00:44:06,544
Speaker 2: who work there are like the curation of their shops

988
00:44:06,544 --> 00:44:11,263
Speaker 2: are incredible, Like the Animu store is stunning there or

989
00:44:11,344 --> 00:44:13,463
Speaker 2: is stunning, and then the Dirk Bick and Work store

990
00:44:13,544 --> 00:44:17,024
Speaker 2: is like a warehouse and totally random and weird. But

991
00:44:17,064 --> 00:44:21,663
Speaker 2: their point of view is is somewhat Scandinavian but somewhat European.

992
00:44:21,984 --> 00:44:25,263
Speaker 2: They fit into this totally. And like the style there

993
00:44:25,303 --> 00:44:27,303
Speaker 2: doesn't look like.

994
00:44:27,384 --> 00:44:29,984
Speaker 1: Anywhere else anywhere else. Yeah, my boyfriend's Dutch and it's

995
00:44:30,024 --> 00:44:34,303
Speaker 1: very different. Oh yeah, well it's esthetically is it. I

996
00:44:34,344 --> 00:44:36,743
Speaker 1: don't know parts of it, parts of it. I look,

997
00:44:36,743 --> 00:44:39,183
Speaker 1: I've only been to Amsterdam once, but I haven't been

998
00:44:39,183 --> 00:44:39,984
Speaker 1: to Belgium before.

999
00:44:40,143 --> 00:44:42,024
Speaker 2: I don't know. I think there's something there. I think

1000
00:44:42,064 --> 00:44:45,104
Speaker 2: the French influence, but then being so close, you know,

1001
00:44:45,104 --> 00:44:48,623
Speaker 2: in close proximity to finn and Sweden stock like that

1002
00:44:48,703 --> 00:44:53,263
Speaker 2: kind of there's something Scandinavian in the undertone, and then

1003
00:44:53,344 --> 00:44:55,944
Speaker 2: there is this European front, like it's just they're in

1004
00:44:56,024 --> 00:44:59,223
Speaker 2: this unusual place, and I think they're also you know,

1005
00:44:59,263 --> 00:45:02,464
Speaker 2: they're surrounded by all these different influences, I think, and

1006
00:45:02,504 --> 00:45:04,743
Speaker 2: they're just It was the first place I ever went

1007
00:45:04,783 --> 00:45:08,064
Speaker 2: to the pan Quotidia, which was like with the first

1008
00:45:08,104 --> 00:45:10,663
Speaker 2: one was in really yeah, I mean I'd never been

1009
00:45:10,663 --> 00:45:13,224
Speaker 2: to a and then now they're everywhere. But I remember

1010
00:45:13,263 --> 00:45:15,384
Speaker 2: thinking how smart it was, those big open tables. I

1011
00:45:15,424 --> 00:45:16,623
Speaker 2: just thought it was the coolest thing ever.

1012
00:45:17,143 --> 00:45:19,064
Speaker 1: I think about places in colors as well. And so

1013
00:45:19,104 --> 00:45:20,904
Speaker 1: we did this little like every year we do in

1014
00:45:20,904 --> 00:45:23,584
Speaker 1: New Year's card, and so I made this little card

1015
00:45:23,703 --> 00:45:25,743
Speaker 1: which is if you look over the other side. So

1016
00:45:25,783 --> 00:45:27,783
Speaker 1: it's different colors with the names kind of like just

1017
00:45:27,824 --> 00:45:30,783
Speaker 1: to you know, paint swatch situation, but each of them's

1018
00:45:30,824 --> 00:45:32,464
Speaker 1: related to a destination.

1019
00:45:33,783 --> 00:45:37,064
Speaker 2: But it's funny when I close my eyes and squint,

1020
00:45:37,104 --> 00:45:40,344
Speaker 2: I often think of like I see towns in color,

1021
00:45:40,344 --> 00:45:40,903
Speaker 2: and so.

1022
00:45:40,944 --> 00:45:43,223
Speaker 1: Yeah, well it's all sorts of different things. You know.

1023
00:45:43,303 --> 00:45:47,544
Speaker 1: It's like the sort of slate gray of Hutongs in Beijing,

1024
00:45:47,824 --> 00:45:52,663
Speaker 1: or it's like the yellow trees in Brazil, Da da

1025
00:45:52,703 --> 00:45:54,303
Speaker 1: da da. So it's all sorts of things, and I

1026
00:45:54,663 --> 00:45:56,504
Speaker 1: feel the same way about that. So I wanted to

1027
00:45:56,504 --> 00:45:59,464
Speaker 1: ask you, like, if you were thinking about a particular

1028
00:45:59,944 --> 00:46:03,303
Speaker 1: destination or place that's on your mind that you'd like

1029
00:46:03,384 --> 00:46:05,863
Speaker 1: to go, and are you thinking through a color at all.

1030
00:46:05,944 --> 00:46:07,823
Speaker 2: I want to go to Egypt so bad. I've never

1031
00:46:07,864 --> 00:46:09,384
Speaker 2: been to Egypt. Where do you want to go that

1032
00:46:09,464 --> 00:46:09,984
Speaker 2: you haven't been?

1033
00:46:10,263 --> 00:46:12,263
Speaker 1: I mean, I would love to go to Ethiopia. I

1034
00:46:12,263 --> 00:46:15,104
Speaker 1: mean that kind of part of the world, East Africa.

1035
00:46:15,263 --> 00:46:18,984
Speaker 1: Have you ever heard of Sekultra. There's an island off Yemen.

1036
00:46:19,303 --> 00:46:24,823
Speaker 1: It's this really strange, totally unique biodiversity hotspot and they

1037
00:46:24,864 --> 00:46:27,703
Speaker 1: have these things called the dragon Blood trees. It's like

1038
00:46:27,743 --> 00:46:31,943
Speaker 1: a Star Wars landscape. Incredible turquoise water and then these

1039
00:46:31,984 --> 00:46:35,584
Speaker 1: trees that sort of fan up. They almost look like succulents,

1040
00:46:35,584 --> 00:46:39,943
Speaker 1: but they're not. It's just a very wild landscape, kind

1041
00:46:39,984 --> 00:46:42,904
Speaker 1: of like what you would imagine another planet entirely. So

1042
00:46:42,984 --> 00:46:44,064
Speaker 1: I really I was going to.

1043
00:46:44,104 --> 00:46:47,823
Speaker 2: Go, but I that one I think right now, like

1044
00:46:47,904 --> 00:46:48,824
Speaker 2: that is not happening.

1045
00:46:49,143 --> 00:46:49,824
Speaker 1: That does not happening.

1046
00:46:49,824 --> 00:46:51,823
Speaker 2: That's a little too close. Yeah, but where do you

1047
00:46:51,864 --> 00:46:54,784
Speaker 2: find the like, where do you find that you decide

1048
00:46:54,824 --> 00:46:55,024
Speaker 2: you want?

1049
00:46:55,064 --> 00:46:57,263
Speaker 1: Of those? Like? I think, you know, being a former

1050
00:46:57,344 --> 00:47:00,864
Speaker 1: travel editor, like a fashion editor, like a whatever editor

1051
00:47:00,904 --> 00:47:03,544
Speaker 1: it is, you get a sense of what's in the wind.

1052
00:47:03,783 --> 00:47:07,024
Speaker 1: I remember that, Like you know, magazine rule wars three

1053
00:47:07,143 --> 00:47:09,504
Speaker 1: is a trend, right, you get in travel. If the

1054
00:47:09,584 --> 00:47:12,984
Speaker 1: museum's opened a hot restaurant in a hotel, you know

1055
00:47:13,064 --> 00:47:15,424
Speaker 1: that's going to be on XYZ list. Oh interesting, But

1056
00:47:15,504 --> 00:47:18,943
Speaker 1: sometimes I take references from you know. Of course you'll

1057
00:47:18,984 --> 00:47:20,823
Speaker 1: hear word of mouth, but then it might be a

1058
00:47:20,824 --> 00:47:24,544
Speaker 1: book that's interesting or I don't know. I also like

1059
00:47:24,663 --> 00:47:27,663
Speaker 1: sometimes think the world is so interesting that you can

1060
00:47:27,703 --> 00:47:30,504
Speaker 1: almost just put your finger on a map, and I

1061
00:47:30,544 --> 00:47:31,543
Speaker 1: always find things.

1062
00:47:31,783 --> 00:47:33,384
Speaker 2: Are you at Trasler who gets up early early in

1063
00:47:33,424 --> 00:47:35,383
Speaker 2: the morning and goes out, or are you like I'm

1064
00:47:35,424 --> 00:47:37,584
Speaker 2: gonna like enjoy my morning coffee and battery.

1065
00:47:37,703 --> 00:47:40,863
Speaker 1: I do not believe in hotel breakfast. I do not

1066
00:47:40,944 --> 00:47:45,703
Speaker 1: believe in hotel break No, I don't. I'm food interested.

1067
00:47:45,944 --> 00:47:49,304
Speaker 1: Let's say, I'm not gonna say foodie, but I'm food interested.

1068
00:47:49,384 --> 00:47:51,703
Speaker 1: So I think you're wasting an opportunity. Do not get

1069
00:47:51,743 --> 00:47:54,023
Speaker 1: out on the streets to have breakfast with people, whether

1070
00:47:54,104 --> 00:47:58,223
Speaker 1: it's in like, you know, a bar in Italy, You're interacting.

1071
00:47:57,663 --> 00:47:59,663
Speaker 2: Even when you're traveling alone, especially.

1072
00:47:59,303 --> 00:48:01,823
Speaker 1: When I'm traveling alone. Oh really yeah, especially when I'm

1073
00:48:01,984 --> 00:48:05,104
Speaker 1: especially when I'm traveling alone. But I recently saw a

1074
00:48:05,143 --> 00:48:08,183
Speaker 1: story about in praise of the hotel breakfast Buffer, and

1075
00:48:08,303 --> 00:48:10,864
Speaker 1: I was like, actually, unless it's like a handful of

1076
00:48:10,904 --> 00:48:15,343
Speaker 1: an amazing Asian hotels, Pelicana's breakfast is pretty pattern fill

1077
00:48:15,344 --> 00:48:18,663
Speaker 1: Pelicana's okay, fine, And yes there's a couple of like yes,

1078
00:48:18,944 --> 00:48:21,464
Speaker 1: but I still, even in Italy, I wouldn't eat breakfast,

1079
00:48:22,104 --> 00:48:23,343
Speaker 1: That's not my thing. I would go and have a

1080
00:48:23,384 --> 00:48:25,424
Speaker 1: coffee and maybe a cornetto or something like that. But

1081
00:48:25,504 --> 00:48:27,824
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think you can find. I always

1082
00:48:27,904 --> 00:48:29,503
Speaker 1: like to go to the market in the morning too,

1083
00:48:29,703 --> 00:48:32,064
Speaker 1: and very often depends on depending on where you are,

1084
00:48:32,143 --> 00:48:34,743
Speaker 1: you find like these little spots wait market, like a

1085
00:48:34,783 --> 00:48:37,743
Speaker 1: food food market and are you cooking? No?

1086
00:48:37,864 --> 00:48:39,504
Speaker 2: No, I just want to see.

1087
00:48:39,663 --> 00:48:41,383
Speaker 1: So what I do. The very first thing where I

1088
00:48:41,424 --> 00:48:44,544
Speaker 1: go to a place if I can, is I go

1089
00:48:44,584 --> 00:48:48,183
Speaker 1: to the local market, farmer's market, whatever that will be,

1090
00:48:48,183 --> 00:48:51,303
Speaker 1: because it's a roadmap to what you're going to order.

1091
00:48:51,824 --> 00:48:55,184
Speaker 1: You also understand the biodiversity. You also get the best

1092
00:48:55,183 --> 00:48:57,863
Speaker 1: tips from people. I mean, I'm coming through the food door,

1093
00:48:57,904 --> 00:48:59,223
Speaker 1: Like where do you go? What's the first thing you

1094
00:48:59,303 --> 00:49:00,544
Speaker 1: do when you're in a particular place.

1095
00:49:00,824 --> 00:49:04,463
Speaker 2: I'm not as like connected to doing that at all,

1096
00:49:04,504 --> 00:49:06,343
Speaker 2: which I love that idea. Like I'm trying to think

1097
00:49:06,344 --> 00:49:08,663
Speaker 2: if I went most of the time, I'm trying to

1098
00:49:08,783 --> 00:49:11,584
Speaker 2: see people, but I often know someone or or I

1099
00:49:11,623 --> 00:49:14,064
Speaker 2: often go someplace where I know someone because I like

1100
00:49:14,223 --> 00:49:16,623
Speaker 2: to know what someone's experience is in that place, Like

1101
00:49:16,663 --> 00:49:19,544
Speaker 2: I like the insider track, Like I was finding when

1102
00:49:19,544 --> 00:49:21,384
Speaker 2: people come to New York and they don't connect with

1103
00:49:21,424 --> 00:49:23,183
Speaker 2: somebody who lives here, I'm like, you're missing out on

1104
00:49:23,824 --> 00:49:27,104
Speaker 2: what is here for people who live here because it's different, right,

1105
00:49:27,183 --> 00:49:29,024
Speaker 2: And so it's interesting to hear is that I'm not

1106
00:49:29,064 --> 00:49:31,944
Speaker 2: as confident in exploring things in that way. But I

1107
00:49:31,984 --> 00:49:33,384
Speaker 2: think that's a fantastic idea.

1108
00:49:33,584 --> 00:49:35,904
Speaker 1: You just have to be like open to it.

1109
00:49:36,064 --> 00:49:38,104
Speaker 2: Yeah, what was the moment when you were younger that

1110
00:49:38,344 --> 00:49:40,544
Speaker 2: made you realize that travel was something that was important

1111
00:49:40,544 --> 00:49:40,703
Speaker 2: to you?

1112
00:49:40,743 --> 00:49:42,743
Speaker 1: Because my siblings were fighting in the back of the

1113
00:49:42,824 --> 00:49:45,424
Speaker 1: car and my dad had sat me up with a

1114
00:49:45,464 --> 00:49:49,184
Speaker 1: map and we were driving around like Griswold style national

1115
00:49:49,223 --> 00:49:53,863
Speaker 1: lampoons European vacation with my three siblings, going from youth

1116
00:49:53,904 --> 00:49:57,663
Speaker 1: hostel to youth hostel Europe. And yeah, I just like,

1117
00:49:58,223 --> 00:50:00,744
Speaker 1: once you tied, once I tied. This is before Google Maps,

1118
00:50:00,743 --> 00:50:03,464
Speaker 1: of course, once I tied maps to history and to

1119
00:50:03,703 --> 00:50:08,183
Speaker 1: like navigation and landscape, somehow something then it became Yeah,

1120
00:50:08,263 --> 00:50:10,263
Speaker 1: something clicked. And also like I think when you come

1121
00:50:10,303 --> 00:50:13,383
Speaker 1: from a pl that is like far away, let's say,

1122
00:50:13,504 --> 00:50:16,223
Speaker 1: or you have a giant imagination. The things that I

1123
00:50:16,263 --> 00:50:18,463
Speaker 1: was reading in books started to come to life. Yeah,

1124
00:50:18,504 --> 00:50:19,984
Speaker 1: you know wind in the Willow is kind of thing.

1125
00:50:20,064 --> 00:50:21,104
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, which is.

1126
00:50:21,064 --> 00:50:23,584
Speaker 1: So alien to me from where I'm from. Yeah, if

1127
00:50:23,584 --> 00:50:25,064
Speaker 1: that makes sense, Yeah, no, I do.

1128
00:50:25,183 --> 00:50:27,104
Speaker 2: I think that was the thing I remember, Like I

1129
00:50:27,143 --> 00:50:30,944
Speaker 2: was saying, like when you start to see where the influences,

1130
00:50:31,104 --> 00:50:33,303
Speaker 2: Like I remember that young girl with the red lip

1131
00:50:33,384 --> 00:50:35,823
Speaker 2: and everything, I'm like, oh, I can see now what

1132
00:50:35,904 --> 00:50:38,424
Speaker 2: a writer might have been describing when they wrote this

1133
00:50:38,464 --> 00:50:41,504
Speaker 2: book about so and so. Like I started to understand

1134
00:50:41,623 --> 00:50:45,304
Speaker 2: like where the beauty was sourced and where the images

1135
00:50:45,303 --> 00:50:47,143
Speaker 2: of people's minds came from. And I guess I just

1136
00:50:47,623 --> 00:50:49,743
Speaker 2: my world was so homogenized when I was growing up.

1137
00:50:49,743 --> 00:50:52,663
Speaker 2: I mean, like strip malls and like bad food, and

1138
00:50:52,743 --> 00:50:55,024
Speaker 2: I'm just like I couldn't believe where movies and books

1139
00:50:55,064 --> 00:50:56,823
Speaker 2: came from. I'm like, who could imagine this stuff? And

1140
00:50:56,864 --> 00:50:59,424
Speaker 2: then you start to live a little and you're like, oh,

1141
00:50:59,864 --> 00:51:01,743
Speaker 2: you know we were talking about like the inside track

1142
00:51:01,783 --> 00:51:04,383
Speaker 2: of a city. I sometimes like to go to Times

1143
00:51:04,424 --> 00:51:06,303
Speaker 2: Square and I know that it's like not the most

1144
00:51:06,344 --> 00:51:08,384
Speaker 2: popular thing for New York because.

1145
00:51:08,303 --> 00:51:11,423
Speaker 1: I'm going to Times Square today. Well look here, here's

1146
00:51:11,424 --> 00:51:14,743
Speaker 1: something random. You know, when you're like a child, a

1147
00:51:14,743 --> 00:51:18,703
Speaker 1: little person and they're seeing something. I love seeing the

1148
00:51:18,743 --> 00:51:20,944
Speaker 1: kids when they're in a new place, they're traveling with

1149
00:51:20,984 --> 00:51:24,223
Speaker 1: their family, and you just see that they're literally changing

1150
00:51:25,223 --> 00:51:27,984
Speaker 1: in that moment because all of a sudden, their possibilities

1151
00:51:28,024 --> 00:51:30,703
Speaker 1: are getting bigger. So I don't sometimes mind going to

1152
00:51:30,824 --> 00:51:35,303
Speaker 1: like tourist attraction places, even if they're overrun. Yes, but

1153
00:51:35,703 --> 00:51:38,143
Speaker 1: I always minded kind of charming, and I think that's

1154
00:51:38,183 --> 00:51:41,183
Speaker 1: like I see a little bit myself, and I would

1155
00:51:41,263 --> 00:51:45,223
Speaker 1: venture to say, like, you're probably your own creation. I'm

1156
00:51:45,263 --> 00:51:47,743
Speaker 1: my own creation in that way, like you borrow all

1157
00:51:47,783 --> 00:51:51,104
Speaker 1: those influences and you kind of add them up and

1158
00:51:51,183 --> 00:51:54,623
Speaker 1: I think it's like I love when when people travel

1159
00:51:54,623 --> 00:51:56,863
Speaker 1: with their kids enough but not too much.

1160
00:51:57,424 --> 00:52:00,703
Speaker 2: I will say that the traveling with phones is such

1161
00:52:00,703 --> 00:52:03,303
Speaker 2: a bummer. It's like I remember sitting in the back

1162
00:52:03,344 --> 00:52:05,823
Speaker 2: of cars on trains and you have nothing to do

1163
00:52:05,904 --> 00:52:07,663
Speaker 2: with either to read or look at the window. And

1164
00:52:07,743 --> 00:52:09,663
Speaker 2: a lot of people can't read in a car, so

1165
00:52:09,743 --> 00:52:11,544
Speaker 2: you just look at the window and maybe listen to music.

1166
00:52:11,544 --> 00:52:13,504
Speaker 2: And now like the kids are like, oh, we have

1167
00:52:13,544 --> 00:52:14,824
Speaker 2: to like confiscate their phones.

1168
00:52:14,864 --> 00:52:17,584
Speaker 1: It's my parents used to make us play I spy.

1169
00:52:17,824 --> 00:52:20,263
Speaker 1: So when we were traveling down I love ice and

1170
00:52:20,303 --> 00:52:22,303
Speaker 1: then you would find something. I mean, it's a bit

1171
00:52:22,344 --> 00:52:24,384
Speaker 1: different in Australia where you can go for five hours

1172
00:52:24,384 --> 00:52:26,223
Speaker 1: on one road and there wasn't very much. But yeah,

1173
00:52:26,263 --> 00:52:28,383
Speaker 1: we did that. I remember that when we were when

1174
00:52:28,384 --> 00:52:34,343
Speaker 1: we were touring around. I have like a few little

1175
00:52:34,424 --> 00:52:38,104
Speaker 1: questions that we kind of ask everyone that comes through

1176
00:52:38,223 --> 00:52:41,544
Speaker 1: traveling through and the first instinct is the right answer.

1177
00:52:41,663 --> 00:52:42,944
Speaker 1: So I'm terrible.

1178
00:52:42,944 --> 00:52:44,743
Speaker 2: I'm telling you right now.

1179
00:52:44,544 --> 00:52:45,864
Speaker 1: What's a place you'd never return?

1180
00:52:46,984 --> 00:52:49,584
Speaker 2: The one place I will never never go back to

1181
00:52:49,623 --> 00:52:52,183
Speaker 2: is Sierra Blanca. Texas almost died there.

1182
00:52:53,143 --> 00:52:54,464
Speaker 1: And where would you always return?

1183
00:52:55,104 --> 00:52:56,944
Speaker 2: I'll always got to southern Italy. I'll always go to

1184
00:52:56,944 --> 00:52:57,584
Speaker 2: southern France.

1185
00:52:57,824 --> 00:52:58,984
Speaker 1: A favorite hotel.

1186
00:52:59,384 --> 00:53:04,183
Speaker 2: I am a partial to ill Pelicana we show. I

1187
00:53:04,223 --> 00:53:06,544
Speaker 2: love her. I think part of it is her, Yeah,

1188
00:53:06,663 --> 00:53:09,303
Speaker 2: just her hospitality and the way that she makes you

1189
00:53:09,303 --> 00:53:10,384
Speaker 2: feel where you're there is.

1190
00:53:10,263 --> 00:53:16,863
Speaker 1: Just oh, it's vision. That view is just otherworldly. I

1191
00:53:16,904 --> 00:53:21,464
Speaker 1: love it. A meal restaurant taste that you'd like to

1192
00:53:21,504 --> 00:53:22,664
Speaker 1: re experience again.

1193
00:53:23,104 --> 00:53:25,784
Speaker 2: I love something that you really only get in France,

1194
00:53:25,783 --> 00:53:26,343
Speaker 2: which is called.

1195
00:53:26,263 --> 00:53:26,504
Speaker 1: An I.

1196
00:53:28,464 --> 00:53:31,464
Speaker 2: Just think they're the weirdest, most beautiful, spectacular dessert what

1197
00:53:31,464 --> 00:53:32,224
Speaker 2: I ever Well.

1198
00:53:32,064 --> 00:53:34,663
Speaker 1: As an Australian who loves Pavlova, and I know it's

1199
00:53:34,703 --> 00:53:39,144
Speaker 1: not the same thing, but merangue with custard, that's sister.

1200
00:53:39,424 --> 00:53:43,304
Speaker 2: Well, it's not really morangue. It's like this fluffy ball

1201
00:53:43,944 --> 00:53:47,944
Speaker 2: of egg whites that you have, Like it's the most

1202
00:53:47,944 --> 00:53:51,024
Speaker 2: delishous and also just like strange and alien looking.

1203
00:53:51,223 --> 00:53:52,863
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that too.

1204
00:53:53,384 --> 00:53:55,064
Speaker 2: Actually I love a Pavlova too.

1205
00:53:55,143 --> 00:54:00,263
Speaker 1: A museum, cultural institution, gallery shop.

1206
00:54:00,183 --> 00:54:02,903
Speaker 2: Market, I mean the place where I found things that

1207
00:54:02,944 --> 00:54:05,664
Speaker 2: I just have never seen before and that like really

1208
00:54:05,663 --> 00:54:09,144
Speaker 2: feel special as they're in Kyoto. There was this little

1209
00:54:09,663 --> 00:54:12,984
Speaker 2: Japanese market, but it was all a home cleaning goods,

1210
00:54:14,223 --> 00:54:16,024
Speaker 2: so similar to the Broom, and it was not that

1211
00:54:16,024 --> 00:54:17,944
Speaker 2: far from the little store that had the broom. Like

1212
00:54:18,143 --> 00:54:21,984
Speaker 2: all of these beautiful little handmade soaps and these little

1213
00:54:22,024 --> 00:54:25,104
Speaker 2: dishes for the soap, and then little brushes and the sponges.

1214
00:54:25,544 --> 00:54:27,863
Speaker 2: It was just the most mesmerizing thing I've ever seen.

1215
00:54:27,984 --> 00:54:29,703
Speaker 2: I would love to find it and go back. I

1216
00:54:29,703 --> 00:54:30,944
Speaker 2: don't know exactly where it was.

1217
00:54:31,263 --> 00:54:32,944
Speaker 1: Maybe it's going to be one of those things often

1218
00:54:33,384 --> 00:54:35,064
Speaker 1: find when I'm on the road and there's something so

1219
00:54:35,223 --> 00:54:39,263
Speaker 1: magical that's sort of a bit, a bit brandless that

1220
00:54:39,303 --> 00:54:41,304
Speaker 1: I know I'm never going to experience against. It's almost

1221
00:54:41,303 --> 00:54:43,223
Speaker 1: like they appear like a mirage and then you never

1222
00:54:43,303 --> 00:54:45,263
Speaker 1: find them again when I live in your memory.

1223
00:54:45,064 --> 00:54:47,104
Speaker 2: I don't know if I could tell anyone how to

1224
00:54:47,104 --> 00:54:47,423
Speaker 2: get there.

1225
00:54:47,464 --> 00:54:50,303
Speaker 1: Yeah, where have you felt most out of place? California

1226
00:54:51,303 --> 00:54:55,544
Speaker 1: and most of the time New York. Okay, So forgetting

1227
00:54:55,623 --> 00:54:58,303
Speaker 1: all of the constraints of life, Yes, where would you

1228
00:54:58,344 --> 00:55:00,584
Speaker 1: most like to spend a weekend, a week, a month,

1229
00:55:00,703 --> 00:55:02,424
Speaker 1: and a year a weekend?

1230
00:55:02,584 --> 00:55:05,623
Speaker 2: I would say, I really want to visit the Ice Hotel.

1231
00:55:05,904 --> 00:55:08,503
Speaker 2: I've never been there and it's on my bucket list,

1232
00:55:08,623 --> 00:55:10,343
Speaker 2: and I don't like to be cold, so I don't

1233
00:55:10,344 --> 00:55:13,423
Speaker 2: want to spend too much time. A week, I mean,

1234
00:55:13,464 --> 00:55:15,384
Speaker 2: I'll always take a week in the south of Italy

1235
00:55:15,544 --> 00:55:18,303
Speaker 2: like always. I would spend a month in like the Cotswalts.

1236
00:55:18,984 --> 00:55:23,104
Speaker 2: I do love like English countryside, and my grandparents are English,

1237
00:55:23,223 --> 00:55:25,143
Speaker 2: like I have an English passport, so and I've never

1238
00:55:25,183 --> 00:55:26,984
Speaker 2: done it. I've actually would love to do it. And

1239
00:55:27,024 --> 00:55:29,784
Speaker 2: then a year if I could spend a year in Japan,

1240
00:55:30,024 --> 00:55:34,024
Speaker 2: like actually learn Japan. Japan's tough, like there are no addresses,

1241
00:55:34,143 --> 00:55:36,464
Speaker 2: like it's not you need to be taken around. It's

1242
00:55:36,504 --> 00:55:38,663
Speaker 2: a really hard I would love to understand Japan in

1243
00:55:38,663 --> 00:55:39,263
Speaker 2: a deeper way.

1244
00:55:39,544 --> 00:55:40,744
Speaker 1: Have you ever been to India before?

1245
00:55:40,864 --> 00:55:42,783
Speaker 2: I've never been to India. I was supposed to go

1246
00:55:42,783 --> 00:55:45,104
Speaker 2: three times and each time I had to cancel. So

1247
00:55:45,263 --> 00:55:47,504
Speaker 2: it's I'm like champiing at the bed.

1248
00:55:47,663 --> 00:55:49,703
Speaker 1: This is like for someone that I think of almost

1249
00:55:49,944 --> 00:55:51,623
Speaker 1: you know. The reason I wanted to talk to you

1250
00:55:51,824 --> 00:55:54,104
Speaker 1: is because I think of you as, like I said,

1251
00:55:54,223 --> 00:55:57,104
Speaker 1: a kind of color collector, a person that thinks, you know,

1252
00:55:57,143 --> 00:55:59,864
Speaker 1: I obviously don't have as fine tuned sense of color

1253
00:55:59,904 --> 00:56:02,143
Speaker 1: as you do. But I do think about places, and

1254
00:56:02,183 --> 00:56:05,623
Speaker 1: I think about collecting those and understanding. I just you know,

1255
00:56:05,703 --> 00:56:07,303
Speaker 1: when I'm dreaming of a place, I think of the

1256
00:56:07,344 --> 00:56:10,263
Speaker 1: color of them. And the irony of you not having

1257
00:56:10,263 --> 00:56:13,623
Speaker 1: gone to India is really incredible because you think of

1258
00:56:13,663 --> 00:56:15,343
Speaker 1: it as a colorful place, but if you stripped away

1259
00:56:15,384 --> 00:56:18,383
Speaker 1: the people and the built environment, it's actually like in

1260
00:56:18,584 --> 00:56:20,544
Speaker 1: many places very colorless.

1261
00:56:20,783 --> 00:56:21,304
Speaker 2: Is that true?

1262
00:56:21,623 --> 00:56:24,464
Speaker 1: Well, the landscape kind of, I mean it depends. It's vast.

1263
00:56:24,544 --> 00:56:27,143
Speaker 1: But India I think is like the ultimate eye education

1264
00:56:27,263 --> 00:56:29,984
Speaker 1: in color because everything goes upside down. It's almost like

1265
00:56:30,024 --> 00:56:32,383
Speaker 1: they use the whichever color you would think that they

1266
00:56:32,384 --> 00:56:35,623
Speaker 1: would use, they would use the complete opposite. So that's

1267
00:56:35,663 --> 00:56:37,863
Speaker 1: exciting for you that you get to go to India.

1268
00:56:37,944 --> 00:56:39,464
Speaker 1: I know that's where you need to go next.

1269
00:56:39,464 --> 00:56:41,743
Speaker 2: Well, I've been working. I don't want to say too much,

1270
00:56:41,743 --> 00:56:43,624
Speaker 2: but I'm potentially working on a project and it would

1271
00:56:43,623 --> 00:56:45,703
Speaker 2: take me there, like to work with a factory, and

1272
00:56:45,703 --> 00:56:48,384
Speaker 2: so I am hopeful. I am a little bit afraid

1273
00:56:48,384 --> 00:56:49,264
Speaker 2: of getting sick.

1274
00:56:49,464 --> 00:56:52,343
Speaker 1: Yeah you will, but you know what, like it's just look,

1275
00:56:52,384 --> 00:56:54,544
Speaker 1: I just tell people that they will and then they

1276
00:56:54,584 --> 00:56:57,504
Speaker 1: don't and they thrilled. And the last question that I

1277
00:56:57,544 --> 00:57:00,504
Speaker 1: ask everyone, and this is sort of more big picture,

1278
00:57:00,743 --> 00:57:02,503
Speaker 1: what are you traveling through right now?

1279
00:57:02,904 --> 00:57:06,504
Speaker 2: Well depends on how you're asking that question. Are you

1280
00:57:06,584 --> 00:57:09,623
Speaker 2: asking for it in terms of like metaphorically in my

1281
00:57:09,743 --> 00:57:13,383
Speaker 2: mind and like as a person, Yeah, I've been in

1282
00:57:13,504 --> 00:57:17,704
Speaker 2: so long in my life reaching and trying to do

1283
00:57:17,744 --> 00:57:19,543
Speaker 2: the next thing, and I think I've sort of gotten

1284
00:57:19,584 --> 00:57:21,784
Speaker 2: to this place where I'm like, I don't I don't

1285
00:57:21,824 --> 00:57:26,744
Speaker 2: feel the same need to. I'm slowing down in a

1286
00:57:26,904 --> 00:57:29,944
Speaker 2: healthy and gratifying way and a little bit more of

1287
00:57:29,984 --> 00:57:33,304
Speaker 2: like true smell the roses and actually enjoy. And I

1288
00:57:33,464 --> 00:57:35,544
Speaker 2: just was so always rushing so much to get to

1289
00:57:35,624 --> 00:57:37,863
Speaker 2: the next thing and to reach the next goal, and

1290
00:57:37,944 --> 00:57:40,864
Speaker 2: I just have sort of pulled the plug on worrying

1291
00:57:40,864 --> 00:57:41,664
Speaker 2: about that so much.

1292
00:57:42,104 --> 00:57:44,224
Speaker 1: Well, ironic that you say that, and that you want

1293
00:57:44,264 --> 00:57:45,584
Speaker 1: to get out in the world again. So it's a

1294
00:57:45,584 --> 00:57:46,944
Speaker 1: different kind of travel for you, right.

1295
00:57:47,064 --> 00:57:49,463
Speaker 2: It's so nice to be I mean, even just listening

1296
00:57:49,544 --> 00:57:51,943
Speaker 2: to talk about the markets, it's like I can do that.

1297
00:57:52,184 --> 00:57:54,184
Speaker 2: I couldn't do any of these things before. I always

1298
00:57:54,424 --> 00:57:57,064
Speaker 2: was on someone else's timeline and I always felt like

1299
00:57:57,064 --> 00:57:59,224
Speaker 2: I needed to show up in a certain way and

1300
00:57:59,264 --> 00:58:02,584
Speaker 2: perform and do this and be respectful of whoever. However

1301
00:58:02,624 --> 00:58:05,104
Speaker 2: I got in there, and now I'm on my own

1302
00:58:05,144 --> 00:58:07,424
Speaker 2: dime and I'm like or being brought for a reason

1303
00:58:07,424 --> 00:58:09,784
Speaker 2: that maybe is about exploration and it's just a different thing,

1304
00:58:09,824 --> 00:58:11,544
Speaker 2: but I think it's more. It's not just around travel,

1305
00:58:11,544 --> 00:58:13,903
Speaker 2: it's like my entire life. I don't feel that need

1306
00:58:13,984 --> 00:58:15,224
Speaker 2: to chase the way I used to.

1307
00:58:16,464 --> 00:58:19,864
Speaker 1: Janna, thank you so much. It's a real pleasure and honor.

1308
00:58:20,104 --> 00:58:22,863
Speaker 1: Thank you spaking so much time with me.

1309
00:58:23,704 --> 00:58:24,343
Speaker 2: I adore you.

1310
00:58:27,984 --> 00:58:28,024
Speaker 1: M