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Speaker 1: Hey guys, Saga and Crystal here.

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Speaker 2: Independent media just played a truly massive role in this

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Speaker 2: election and we are so excited about what that means

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Speaker 2: for the future of this show.

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Speaker 3: This is the only place where you can find honest

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Speaker 3: perspectives from the left and the right that simply does

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Speaker 3: not exist anywhere else.

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Speaker 2: So if that is something that's important to you, please

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Speaker 2: go to Breakingpoints dot com. Become a member today and

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Speaker 2: and all put together for you every morning in your inbox.

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Speaker 3: We need your help to build the future of independent

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Speaker 3: news media and we hope to see you at Breakingpoints

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Speaker 3: dot com. Good morning, everybody, Happy Tuesday. Have an amazing

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Speaker 3: show for everybody today.

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Speaker 1: What do we have, Crystal, indeed we do so.

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Speaker 2: Trump met with Emmanuel matcrone of France yesterday. Lots of

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Speaker 2: news made on Ukraine, so we will break all of

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Speaker 2: that down for you. We also have the very latest

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Speaker 2: in the wars between Elon and the agency heads and

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Speaker 2: OPM and Trump and whatever with regard to this Doge

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Speaker 2: five bullet email, so lots of developments there will break

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Speaker 2: that down for you. We also have Apple making a

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Speaker 2: big economic announcement. Is it real though, because there are

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Speaker 2: some other counter indicators, I would say, and with regard

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Speaker 2: to the economy with the Apple specifically, a lot of

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Speaker 2: developments with regard to Israel that we wanted to get to,

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Speaker 2: including they appear to be annexing a significant part of Syria.

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Speaker 4: So that's the thing that is just happening now.

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Speaker 2: Also, tanks rolling through the occupied West Bank, so a

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Speaker 2: lot of folks on there. Huge shake up at MSNBC.

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Speaker 2: Joy Read is out, Amon is getting moved, Jensaki is in,

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Speaker 2: just a lot of shifting of that lineup. And actually,

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Speaker 2: notably she almost never does this, but Rachel Maddow directly

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Speaker 2: criticizing the network there, specifically with regard to the cancelation

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Speaker 2: of Joy Reid Show. So I'll write that down for

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Speaker 2: you what it says about that network and where they're

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Speaker 2: heading in the Trump era. And I'm taking a look

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Speaker 2: at this is an astonishing story. So West Virginia experience

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Speaker 2: these horrific historic floods, devastating, two thousand houses destroyed, three

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Speaker 2: people lost their lives, etc. They've been begging Trump for

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Speaker 2: an emergency declaration. Still as of today, they haven't gotten it,

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Speaker 2: which means zero federal help on the ground in West Virginia.

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Speaker 2: And these are some of the poorest counties in the country.

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Speaker 2: These are also some of the most Trump supporting counties

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Speaker 2: in the entire country there. So I'm going to take

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Speaker 2: a look at what is going on there, which I

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Speaker 2: still have a lot of questions about, to be frank with.

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Speaker 3: You, Yeah, I'm very curious. I wasn't even aware of

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Speaker 3: the situation. So I'm excited to hear that monologue. Thanks

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Speaker 3: to all of our prem subscribers for supporting the show.

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Speaker 3: But let's get into it with Ukraine. So there's been

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Speaker 3: some significant developments here. As you said, President Trump meeting

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Speaker 3: yesterday in the Oval Office at the White House with

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Speaker 3: Emmanuel Macrone. Manuel Macrone's real mission was to come here

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Speaker 3: and basically to sell Trump on stopping whatever he is doing.

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Speaker 3: But it does not look like that will be successful.

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Speaker 3: Here's a little bit of Donald Trump and the Oval

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Speaker 3: describing this quote unquote minerals agreement which we're going to

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Speaker 3: return to in a little bit that he wants to

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Speaker 3: sign with Ukraine.

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Speaker 1: Let's take a listen.

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Speaker 5: It looks like we're getting very close. The deal's being

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Speaker 5: worked on. I think getting very close to getting an

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Speaker 5: agreement where where we get our money back over a

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Speaker 5: period of time, but it also gives us something where

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Speaker 5: I think it's very beneficial to their economy, to them

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Speaker 5: as a country. But you know, we're in for three

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Speaker 5: hundred and fifty billion dollars. How we got there, I

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Speaker 5: don't know. But that's a lot of money, a lot

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Speaker 5: of money invested, and we had nothing, nothing to show

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Speaker 5: for it. And it was the Biden administration's fault. The

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Speaker 5: Europeans are in for about one hundred billion dollars and

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Speaker 5: they do it as a form, in the form of

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Speaker 5: a loan. And the Europeans have been great on this issue.

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Speaker 5: They understood it wasn't fair and we were able to

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Speaker 5: work something out.

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Speaker 3: So that is the description of the quote unquote Minerals Agreement.

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Speaker 3: But all of this is all coming back to Big

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Speaker 3: War between the Europeans and between Donald Trump in terms

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Speaker 3: of wanting to sign this peace deal with Russia over Ukraine.

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Speaker 1: The Ukraine Minerals Agreement is kind of secondary to.

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Speaker 3: The overall peace deal, the Big The Big Peace Deal

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Speaker 3: is basically negotiations with the Russians, which is currently Secretary

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Speaker 3: of State and the Secret State and Steve Wikoff have

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Speaker 3: been engaged in to return what it appears to be

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Speaker 3: is to the Istanbul framework of April of twenty twenty two.

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Speaker 3: So it is interesting because obviously the Europeans are freaking

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Speaker 3: out about that. They do not want to be on

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Speaker 3: the hook for their thirty thousand peacekeepers. They're saying, even

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Speaker 3: if we did that America, you guys still have to

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Speaker 3: pay for it, all of the intelligence, and there's a

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Speaker 3: big war and a feeling of abandonment on the continent.

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Speaker 3: It fits very well with the Germany story that we

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Speaker 3: did yesterday, the new Chancellor of Germany saying that we

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Speaker 3: will have to try and have independence from the United States,

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Speaker 3: which is the logical endpoint of a lot of geopolitical

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Speaker 3: forces over the last decades or so.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it also goes with that, like some of

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Speaker 2: the numbers and stuff. He just completely makes up the

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Speaker 2: three and fifty billion number, the comparison with Europe. Macron

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Speaker 2: actually jumps in, I think we have that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, we have it, and it's like let's go and play.

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Speaker 4: He actually jumps in.

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Speaker 2: He's like, well something, you know, it wasn't all just loans,

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Speaker 2: like we actually some of that was hard money.

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Speaker 1: As well.

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Speaker 4: Let's take a listen to that moment.

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Speaker 3: We'll grant to.

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Speaker 6: Support the usbe I support the idea to have Ukraine

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Speaker 6: first being compensated because they are the one to have

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Speaker 6: lose a lot of the fellow citizen and being destroyed

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Speaker 6: by this attack. Second, all of those who paid for

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Speaker 6: could be compensated, but not by Ukraine, by Russia because

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Speaker 6: they was the one to aggress.

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Speaker 5: Again, so you understaid, just say you understand Europe is

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Speaker 5: loaning the money to Ukraine. They get their money back now.

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Speaker 6: In fact, to be frank, we paid. We paid sixty

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Speaker 6: percent of the totally faults and it was through I

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Speaker 6: like the US loans guarantee grants, and we provided real money.

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Speaker 6: To be clear, we have two hundred and thirty billion

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Speaker 6: frozen assets in Europe Russian assets. But this is not

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Speaker 6: as a collateral of a loan because this is not

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Speaker 6: all belonging. So they are frozen. If at the end

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Speaker 6: of the day the negotiation we will have with Russia,

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Speaker 6: they're ready to give it to us, super it will

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Speaker 6: be loan at the end of the day and Russia

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Speaker 6: will have paid for that.

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Speaker 5: If you believe that, it's okay with me, but they

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Speaker 5: get their money back and we don't, and now we do.

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Speaker 5: But you know that's.

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Speaker 6: Only fare close to her.

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Speaker 2: Very weird interpersonal dynamics between these two as well, very

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Speaker 2: like touchy, a lot of sort of like alpha male

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Speaker 2: positioning and jockeying there or whatever. But you know, I mean,

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Speaker 2: I have a lot of feelings about this, and number one,

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Speaker 2: I just want the war to end. Like the fact

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Speaker 2: that we are going back to a framework that was

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Speaker 2: originally negotiated at the very in the very early days

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Speaker 2: of this war. And frankly, I think Ukraine would be

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Speaker 2: very fortunate.

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Speaker 4: We would be very fortunate.

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Speaker 2: Look if they're able to achieve you know, that agreement

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Speaker 2: that was on the table at that point, because if

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Speaker 2: you'll recall, and of course we discussed the Synauseum here

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Speaker 2: on the show, at that point, Ukraine really did have

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Speaker 2: Russia on the back foot. They really had outperformed. There

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Speaker 2: really was this coalescing of the US and Europe and

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Speaker 2: all these forces behind them. We had just put on

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Speaker 2: this massive amount of sanctions, you know, the biggest sanctioned

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Speaker 2: regime in history. It was very uncertain how that was

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Speaker 2: going to go for Russia, et cetera. So the dynamics

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Speaker 2: were a lot more in Ukraine's favor at this point,

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Speaker 2: and so when you think about going back to like

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Speaker 2: it's just heartbreaking the number of people lives that have

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Speaker 2: been lost, the death and destruction, all because and this

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Speaker 2: is the part where I get to like the way

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Speaker 2: Trump frames this is just like wrong and a lie,

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Speaker 2: all because the US wanted to use Ukraine as a

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Speaker 2: proxy in this fight against Russia. That's why that peace

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Speaker 2: deal wasn't pursued. And so, you know, like I said,

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Speaker 2: complicated feel On the one hand, if he's moving towards ending.

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Speaker 4: The war, great, I'm on board with that. Let's do it.

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Speaker 2: On the other hand, like saying that it's Ukraine's fault

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Speaker 2: that the war started, saying we should be reimbursed. No,

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Speaker 2: we're the reason why we pushed them to have this

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Speaker 2: massive war and devastate their population, devastate the country, etc.

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Speaker 2: And you know, of course I'm also disgusted, which is

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Speaker 2: like the naked return to colonialism and imperialism where it's like,

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Speaker 2: you know, we're going to just make you a you know,

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Speaker 2: a client state and extract whatever resources we can out

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Speaker 2: of you. And I don't know if you saw this,

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Speaker 2: why did I Russia came in. Russia came in and

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Speaker 2: was like, oh, we have rare earth minerals too, Like maybe.

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Speaker 4: You know, let's let's cut a deal.

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Speaker 2: And I'll tell you why why it's bad is because

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Speaker 2: I believe that these countries should actually have sovereignty. I

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Speaker 2: do actually think that the post World War two order

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Speaker 2: in which the norm generally followed around the world in

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Speaker 2: which countries small countries are left alone and where it is,

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Speaker 2: you know, a breach of international law and you know,

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Speaker 2: something to be guarded against when you have large countries

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Speaker 2: that are just taking advantage of small countries, Like that's

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Speaker 2: why I think that is a bad direction to go in.

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Speaker 4: But the other thing is that is.

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Speaker 2: Really unclear to me, is Okay, if we strike this

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Speaker 2: like raw earth minerals and their ports and their you know,

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Speaker 2: oil and gas resources, this across the board fifty percent,

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Speaker 2: we're basically taking over your state.

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Speaker 1: Deal.

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean that doesn't get us less entangled in

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Speaker 2: that region. That gets us more entangled in that region.

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Speaker 2: So I still have a lot of questions about how

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Speaker 2: this is all goingting.

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Speaker 3: Well, see, this is where I just totally depart from

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Speaker 3: this like kind of liberal fantasy view of the world.

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Speaker 3: Like not to go all Howard's in, but the idea

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Speaker 3: that the post World War two order has protected small

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Speaker 3: countries is ridiculous. I mean, if you look again, I

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Speaker 3: would borrow some left this commentary. Look, take a look

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Speaker 3: at tiny little countries in South America and how independent

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Speaker 3: they've been over the last year, seventy five years.

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Speaker 1: It's ludicrous. It's all just complete bullshit.

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Speaker 4: And so this is this is my issue. Sorry to

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Speaker 4: cut you.

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Speaker 2: Off, like this is to me the sort of core

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Speaker 2: ethos of the Trump administration two point zero, not just

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Speaker 2: with regard to foreign affairs, but with regard to domestic

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Speaker 2: affairs too. It's like, Okay, well things are bad, and

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Speaker 2: like we've been hypocritical, so instead of trying to improve

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Speaker 2: those international laws, try instead of trying to actually act

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Speaker 2: as you know, moral actors in the world and respect

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Speaker 2: territorial sovereignty, have additional cooperation, et cetera. Instead it's like, well,

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Speaker 2: things have been bad and we've been hypocritical, so let's

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Speaker 2: just make it worse. And it's the same thing with

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Speaker 2: regard to you know, the government here, it's like, well,

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Speaker 2: government has failed, so let's just strip it down and

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Speaker 2: make it so it can't even deliver your social security

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Speaker 2: medicare in the things that it actually does well. So yeah,

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Speaker 2: I you know, reject this return to just naked colonialism

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Speaker 2: and imperialism. And you know, there are a lot of

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Speaker 2: ways that you can do. There are multiple ways you

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Speaker 2: can do a multipolar world, one of which is to

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Speaker 2: actually have respect for smaller countries around the world, actually

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Speaker 2: to respect territorial integrity, actually to move in the direction

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Speaker 2: of cooperation with large powers. And when Trump says things

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Speaker 2: about like hey, let's cut the military fifty percent and

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Speaker 2: strike a deal with Russia and China, that would be

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Speaker 2: a move in that direction, there is no way in

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Speaker 2: hell that I think that is actually what's going to

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Speaker 2: play out here whatsoever.

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Speaker 4: Instead, I think.

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Speaker 2: We're headed much more towards like a new imperialism, a

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Speaker 2: new naked like just we're going to take Greenland, We're

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Speaker 2: going to take Panama, we're going to take Canada, we're

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Speaker 2: going to bomb Mexico, we're going to take Gaza, et cetera.

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Speaker 2: And an increase in militarism and defense spending very much

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Speaker 2: in line with like you know, the Cold War hostilities

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Speaker 2: with the SOVIETI but.

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Speaker 1: This is the thing.

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Speaker 3: We don't have a choice, and all countries in the

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Speaker 3: international system will do what's in their best interest. It's

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Speaker 3: just again like a literal liberal fantasy of the nineteen

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Speaker 3: sixties that we could create some grand peace architecture when

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Speaker 3: the United States and the great.

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Speaker 1: Powers will always rule the world.

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Speaker 3: We're going to get to this to the United Nations,

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Speaker 3: and just again to show you there's no such thing

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Speaker 3: as international law. There is no such thing as a

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Speaker 3: UN General Assembly. No one gives a shit what Montenegro thinks,

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Speaker 3: nor should we all of all. The international system of

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Speaker 3: all time, multipolarity, bipolarity, unipolarity has always come down to

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Speaker 3: the say of the great powers. It is built into

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Speaker 3: the United Nations that the p five powers have absolute

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Speaker 3: authority to veto anything. It's actually implicit in the international

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Speaker 3: system that the great victors of World War two will

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Speaker 3: decide the new fate. And so this idea also that

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Speaker 3: we shouldn't have Ukraine pay us back.

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Speaker 1: I mean, again, you're not wrong.

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Speaker 2: That faults well like we should be paid, to be

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Speaker 2: honest with you're the death and destruction.

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Speaker 4: That you know led them into.

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Speaker 3: Well again, that's just again, in my opinion, kind of

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Speaker 3: a ridiculous notion. If you are going to expend one

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Speaker 3: hundred billion dollars plus into building this country and ensuring

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Speaker 3: its territorial integrity, the idea that we should not reap

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Speaker 3: the rewards and the benefits of it is insane. I mean,

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Speaker 3: go back to the Marshal. No, No, because this is

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Speaker 3: the architecture of the post World War two era.

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Speaker 2: The Marshal, these tensions that led to NATO's expansion, that pushed,

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Speaker 2: you know, this direction for Ukraine, like we've used them

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Speaker 2: as our toy.

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Speaker 3: Yes, but they all know that, of course, but that's

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Speaker 3: also what they want, right, is a willing participant pay.

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Speaker 2: Back when we're a key component, not that Zelenski doesn't

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Speaker 2: have an agency whatever, but we are a key reason why

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Speaker 2: this country has been at war, why Russia invaded this

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Speaker 2: but we are far more responsible for.

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Speaker 4: That than Ukraine is.

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Speaker 2: So you know, again, I want the war to end,

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Speaker 2: but I cannot just city and brook this complete inversion

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Speaker 2: of reality in which is Ukraine's fault that they got

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Speaker 2: invaded by Russia and they somehow owe us something when

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Speaker 2: we're the whole reason why this war wasn't settled years ago.

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Speaker 4: In that is Stanbul.

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Speaker 3: It's not just US, it's also the UK which always

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Speaker 3: needs to get out in that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it was mostly US. I don't agree.

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Speaker 1: That's why I think Biden is terrible. It was an

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Speaker 1: awful president.

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Speaker 3: But again, if we return to this idea, do you

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Speaker 3: think we did the Marshall Plan out of the goodness

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Speaker 3: of our heart?

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Speaker 1: Or did we do it to prop up a.

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Speaker 3: Democratic europe democratic you know, small d to do what

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Speaker 3: so that we could, you know, have a nice, big,

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Speaker 3: old marketplace over there. We don't do anything out of

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Speaker 3: the goodness of our heart, nor should we. It's a

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Speaker 3: stupid idea. That's not how countries conduct relations with others.

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Speaker 3: If we have now expended over one hundred plus billion dollars,

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Speaker 3: the United States has depleted its stockpiles and more, that

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Speaker 3: we should just say, oh, you know, deal's done. No,

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Speaker 3: if we're going to ensure your territorial integrity or do

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Speaker 3: this piece deal with Russia, we're going to get something

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Speaker 3: out of it. Whether Ukraine exists has absolutely no import

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Speaker 3: to the United States whatsoever. The only thing that if

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Speaker 3: we're going to get something out of this should of

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Speaker 3: course be to the economic benefit of the United States consumer,

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Speaker 3: which again is the backbone of the US liberal world order.

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Speaker 3: I know people don't like when I talk like this.

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Speaker 3: It's the truth, all right. The other people who are

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Speaker 3: telling you about democracy and oh NATO, it's all bs

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Speaker 3: completely What Latvia matters so much to America?

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Speaker 1: No, it's ludicrous.

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Speaker 3: I mean, these countries are both in the traditional Russian

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Speaker 3: sphere of influence, as you said, with the NATO encroachment

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Speaker 3: on Russian borders and more. The entire idea behind it

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Speaker 3: is a US and European basically market system which we

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Speaker 3: use our military power to protect to the benefit of

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Speaker 3: our consumers, of our companies, and of the European companies

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Speaker 3: as well. Let's all just be honest about it. And

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Speaker 3: that's where I have to return to. Where when we

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Speaker 3: look at the way that the Ukrainians are complicit in

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Speaker 3: this is that they have wanted since that push for

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Speaker 3: more militarism, for more war. They want to basically, you know,

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Speaker 3: you know, take all all of our stockpiles.

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Speaker 1: They want to increase their war with Rush.

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Speaker 3: Their plan from the very beginning is what is to

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Speaker 3: draw the United States in. Whatever they're doing is definitely

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Speaker 3: bad for American security interests. And so while yes, I

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Speaker 3: won't let Biden or Boris Johnson off the hook. The

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Speaker 3: Ukrainians also are, especially the Ukrainian government has tied itself

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Speaker 3: legally to this framework where they're not allowed to have elections,

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Speaker 3: even though we're protecting democracy. They're not allowed to even

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Speaker 3: negotiate on any territorial integrity.

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Speaker 1: According to their own laws.

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Speaker 3: Like they have locked themselves in to this paradigm, and

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Speaker 3: that's where they have agency, and we also can reset

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Speaker 3: the paradigm of how we conduct relations between states. The

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Speaker 3: ideal foreign policy that I would ever want is exactly this.

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Speaker 3: Right now, we're meeting with Russia Ukraine. You're not even there.

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Speaker 3: You know why, because it's not about you. That's the

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Speaker 3: whole What.

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Speaker 4: Happened in them having agency, what happened to it being.

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Speaker 3: Their fault They can do whatever they want inside their

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Speaker 3: country soccer? When is that an the pro level we

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Speaker 3: will decide what's.

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Speaker 2: That's my point is that it's not their fault that

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Speaker 2: we wanted to drag this war out for years.

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Speaker 4: We were the ones who.

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Speaker 1: Were driving that trade.

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Speaker 4: It were the reason.

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Speaker 2: Why in twenty twenty two in Istanbul, we went in

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Speaker 2: and said no, we don't want this peace process to continue.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't because of Ukraine. They were at the table negotiating.

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Speaker 2: We covered those negotiations. Okay, they have desires and agency,

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Speaker 2: and of course, if they're going to be invaded by

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Speaker 2: this nuclear superpower, they want whoever can have their back

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Speaker 2: to have their back. But we are the reason why

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Speaker 2: this has been dragged out for years, and the fact

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Speaker 2: that you have an election, have new president doesn't wipe

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Speaker 2: that slate clean and now means somehow that they owe us.

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Speaker 4: No, they don't we owe them.

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Speaker 2: That's the truth of the matter if you're actually looking

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Speaker 2: at things from an equitable perspective, because we are the

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Speaker 2: primary reason that they have lost hundreds of thousands of

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Speaker 2: lives and their country has been decimated because we wanted

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Speaker 2: to use them as a plaything in our geopolitical ambitions.

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Speaker 2: That's the truth of the matter. And so this idea

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Speaker 2: that it's Ukraine's that Russia invaded them, I think is

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Speaker 2: a discussing why it's bullshit.

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Speaker 4: It's complete inversion of reality.

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Speaker 2: And also, you know, to frame Zelenski, Trump gets asked

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Speaker 2: another point here he had no problem calling Zelenski a

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Speaker 2: quote unquote dictator, even though he was democratically elected, And yes,

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Speaker 2: I agree with you they should have elections, although I'm

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Speaker 2: also sympathetic to the argument they make that, like, hey,

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Speaker 2: it's kind of hard to have elections when you've got

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Speaker 2: millions of people who have fled the country and people

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Speaker 2: who are displaced, and parts of the country that were

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Speaker 2: not even sure whether they're US or Russia at this point.

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Speaker 2: But yes, they should have elections. But he was not

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Speaker 2: willing to say Putin was a dictator, but he's perfectly

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Speaker 2: comfortable saying Zelenski's a dictator. So again, listen, I want

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Speaker 2: this war to end, but I also we have to

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Speaker 2: exist in some sort of reality based framework here, and

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Speaker 2: he has completely inverted what actually happened in this war

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Speaker 2: and the entire trajectory.

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Speaker 3: A look again to return. Now, is Putin a dictator?

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Speaker 3: I can say that, yes. Do you know why it's

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Speaker 3: a bad idea, for example, for the president of the

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Speaker 3: United States to call a Russian nuclear superpower of leader

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Speaker 3: of that country a dictator or a war criminal? I

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Speaker 3: dare say, like maybe Joe Biden is because we have

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Speaker 3: to conduct relations with these great powers. Now, is Russia

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Speaker 3: like a pre eminent superpower? No, but it's a nuclear

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Speaker 3: arm power, and it's military has already you know, dramatically

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Speaker 3: increased its power and its size to the point where

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Speaker 3: even the so called great powers of Europe are unable,

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Speaker 3: by their own admission, to even keep up with them

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Speaker 3: from a war production level. In general, it's a good

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Speaker 3: idea to just make sure that things are unbalance. That's

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Speaker 3: really what pisses people off is and this is what

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Speaker 3: I just don't get. People would really liberals really would

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Speaker 3: rather live in a world where we vote correctly in

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Speaker 3: the un GA and don't call Zelensky a dictator than

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Speaker 3: to have peace piece.

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Speaker 4: Is all the dictator.

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Speaker 1: He is irrelevant, that's but.

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Speaker 4: It's also just a lie.

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Speaker 2: And so that's why because I care, because having reality

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Speaker 2: and like factual accuracy is something that I think we

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Speaker 2: should all care about. I mean, you know, to turn Ukraine,

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Speaker 2: which was truly a victim of the circumstance into like

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Speaker 2: they're the aggressor, and to say that, oh, Russia, you know,

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Speaker 2: it's not Russia's fault that they invaded this country, Like

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Speaker 2: it's number one Russia's fault.

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Speaker 4: It's number two our fault.

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Speaker 2: And it has really very little to do with being

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Speaker 2: the Ukrainian's fault and no, so no, I'm not going

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Speaker 2: to just sit by and say like it's fine to

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Speaker 2: just make up this preposterous, upside down worldview. And I

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Speaker 2: don't even see how that actually helps in these negotiations either,

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Speaker 2: because your goal in the negotiations, since Russia was the aggressor,

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Speaker 2: and you don't want to have countries just willingly taking

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Speaker 2: over other countries because that leads to more war and

427
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Speaker 2: more death and more destruction and more devastation and us

428
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Speaker 2: getting entangled more places. By the way, what you would

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Speaker 2: ideally want is the best possible deal you can achieve

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Speaker 2: at this point on the Ukrainian side, to me, going

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Speaker 2: into this calling Zelenski dictator, throwing him under the bus

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Speaker 2: signally you you know, aren't going to call putin a dictator,

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Speaker 2: that you're going to side with them even in their

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00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:08,560
Speaker 2: preposterous narrative of how this war unfold and somehow make

435
00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:12,800
Speaker 2: it about like Ukrainian aggression is insane and completely gives

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Speaker 2: up any leverage you had to try to secure the

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Speaker 2: best deal you can for Ukraine, which would be the

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Speaker 2: most justice here.

439
00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:21,520
Speaker 3: That's the presumption that you made there is incorrect. Is

440
00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:23,720
Speaker 3: that why should we care about securing the best deal

441
00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:26,200
Speaker 3: for Ukraine. That's Ukraine's problem. We should secure the best

442
00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:29,920
Speaker 3: deal for us, and that is exactly how countries should

443
00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:33,919
Speaker 3: conduct international relations. Ukraine's job is to push for its

444
00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:36,879
Speaker 3: own interests. Congratulations to you. I actually think they've done

445
00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:38,760
Speaker 3: a pretty good job. I mean they've got to save

446
00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:41,159
Speaker 3: eighty percent of their country twenty percent of their countries

447
00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:42,600
Speaker 3: controlled by Russia.

448
00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:45,680
Speaker 1: They literally get to live and exist. That's your victory.

449
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:49,200
Speaker 3: They refuse to acknowledge that victory when you're up against

450
00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:51,879
Speaker 3: a nuclear arm power. Our job is to do what

451
00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:55,720
Speaker 3: is best for us and for our quote unquote allies. Ukraine,

452
00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:58,399
Speaker 3: you know what kind of allies this is currently always

453
00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:02,720
Speaker 3: asking us for money into broil our nuclear arsenal on

454
00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:05,760
Speaker 3: their side, to give them NATO umbrella Like this is

455
00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:08,679
Speaker 3: not something that is beneficial to us whatsoever. Not to

456
00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:11,320
Speaker 3: mention how much money we have all paid in extra

457
00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:17,359
Speaker 3: gas because of these Russian sanctions. To return to that

458
00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:22,240
Speaker 3: Spring twenty twenty two framework. Steve Witkoff, who is Trump's friend,

459
00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:26,800
Speaker 3: Envoy Envoy extraordinaire from Israel Gaza now involved in this

460
00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:30,360
Speaker 3: as now talking specifically about the istan Bul Framework as

461
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:32,000
Speaker 3: one that he would like to see in the deal.

462
00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:32,960
Speaker 1: Let's take a listen.

463
00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:36,160
Speaker 7: They are responsive to an end to this. They were

464
00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:43,320
Speaker 7: very very what i'll call kojint and substantive negotiations framed

465
00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:46,480
Speaker 7: in something that's called the istan Bul Protocol agreement. We

466
00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:49,600
Speaker 7: came very very close to signing something, and I think

467
00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:55,040
Speaker 7: we'll be using that framework as a guidepost to get

468
00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:57,680
Speaker 7: a piece deal done between Ukraine and Russia, and I

469
00:21:57,760 --> 00:21:59,160
Speaker 7: think that will be an amazing day.

470
00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:02,400
Speaker 3: So the Istanbul Framework or Spring of twenty twenty two,

471
00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:05,520
Speaker 3: which you previously mentioned, that is important because that's the

472
00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:08,200
Speaker 3: deal that was on the table of which Boris Johnson

473
00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:10,760
Speaker 3: basically went over to the Kiev on behalf of Joe

474
00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:12,600
Speaker 3: Biden was like, yeah, I don't do this. Actually, we're

475
00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:14,919
Speaker 3: going to be behind you this entire time, and it

476
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:18,160
Speaker 3: leads to this complete quagmire. So I'm not letting Joe

477
00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:21,239
Speaker 3: Biden or Boris Johnson or Mmanuel Maco, any of these

478
00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:23,840
Speaker 3: NATO leaders off the hook. But we are where we

479
00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:26,119
Speaker 3: are right now, So how do we deal with this?

480
00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:27,879
Speaker 3: And so the way that we deal with it is

481
00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:30,320
Speaker 3: end it as soon as possible. It's bad for us,

482
00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:32,440
Speaker 3: it's bad for them. It's bad for the Russians too,

483
00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:35,680
Speaker 3: just in terms of well, actually, let's put it to

484
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:36,040
Speaker 3: this way.

485
00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:39,359
Speaker 1: Is it good for us to have an isolated Russia.

486
00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:42,520
Speaker 3: With a war economy that is booming war production more.

487
00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:45,680
Speaker 1: Than the United States and NATO combined. That sounds bad.

488
00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:48,399
Speaker 3: So whatever we can do to try and bring that

489
00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:51,320
Speaker 3: temperature down and just make sure that we're not having

490
00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:54,960
Speaker 3: this not only ongoing land war humanitarian disaster, but just

491
00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:58,919
Speaker 3: geopolitical tension rise again over a country which is completely

492
00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:01,920
Speaker 3: irrelevant to the United States. Yeah, I think that's overall

493
00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:04,160
Speaker 3: a good thing. And I mean this is also where

494
00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:06,199
Speaker 3: we have a bit of a binary choice here. We

495
00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:09,360
Speaker 3: had Joe Biden, Kamala Harrison, all of them who genuinely

496
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:11,280
Speaker 3: did not want peace in Ukraine. They wanted this war

497
00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:13,840
Speaker 3: to go on forever. And then we have whatever the

498
00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:17,520
Speaker 3: hell this is realism with the Trump flavor, the Trump doctrine,

499
00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:19,919
Speaker 3: whatever it is that we can describe it. I'm going

500
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:21,520
Speaker 3: to choose the latter. I mean, I think the latter

501
00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:24,239
Speaker 3: is far preferable. If the war ends, and especially if

502
00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:27,879
Speaker 3: the US taxpayer or at least US consumers benefited in

503
00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:28,280
Speaker 3: some way.

504
00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:29,720
Speaker 1: That seems to be somewhat.

505
00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:31,320
Speaker 3: More of a net positive and whatever the hell we

506
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:34,360
Speaker 3: were doing over the last three years, and I think that, honestly,

507
00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:37,240
Speaker 3: I think this will be tremendously popular if it comes

508
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:40,440
Speaker 3: to fruition. The only I would say counter to all

509
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:43,240
Speaker 3: of this is the problems that could be sidelined in

510
00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:46,760
Speaker 3: the rare earth minerals deal that you talked about. Let's

511
00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:49,159
Speaker 3: put that on the screen for example. So here we

512
00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:52,200
Speaker 3: have the actual text of the rare Earth Minerals deal

513
00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:55,320
Speaker 3: quote worth hundreds of billions of dollars, under which the

514
00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:59,080
Speaker 3: US would express its desire to keep Ukraine free, sovereign,

515
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:02,720
Speaker 3: and secure. According to this draft, which is obtained by Axios,

516
00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:08,719
Speaker 3: the Ukrainian deal would effectively allow US investment in Ukrainian

517
00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:12,800
Speaker 3: mineral companies with some sort of split guaranteed in the future.

518
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:15,680
Speaker 3: As you said, the Russians are also saying, hey, we've

519
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:17,879
Speaker 3: also got a ton of rare earth minerals, which apparently

520
00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:19,879
Speaker 3: on paper is correct. I did not know that in

521
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:21,720
Speaker 3: terms of what they're rare earth mineral stocks.

522
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:22,480
Speaker 1: Well, and all of that.

523
00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:24,360
Speaker 2: Ryan was right when he was like, you know, these

524
00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:26,400
Speaker 2: rare earths turn out to not be so rare.

525
00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:29,480
Speaker 1: He's right. Yeah, he's like, they're in Mexico, they're in Chile.

526
00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:33,119
Speaker 3: We actually had Chinese posts here now Afghanistan.

527
00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:34,600
Speaker 2: And I also read that Ukraine is a little bit

528
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:38,040
Speaker 2: over selling their rare earth situation. But that's why it's

529
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:41,240
Speaker 2: important to understand some news outlet, I can't remember which

530
00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:43,520
Speaker 2: one got their hands on the deal that was proposed,

531
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:45,520
Speaker 2: and it was not just rare earth mineral it was

532
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:49,680
Speaker 2: basically all of Ukraine's economic active, primary economic activity, including

533
00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:53,280
Speaker 2: their ports. They're oil and gas, they're quote unquote rare

534
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:55,800
Speaker 2: earth minerals, which also, by the way, like which rare

535
00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:59,160
Speaker 2: earths have been important, have shifted over time as well.

536
00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:03,800
Speaker 2: So in any case, yeah, it's I mean, if some

537
00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:06,679
Speaker 2: sort of deal like this actually goes down, then it

538
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:10,119
Speaker 2: means we are obligated to Ukraine forever, because we're not

539
00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:12,560
Speaker 2: we're going to You don't think we're gonna protect those

540
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 2: economics and be committed to protect those economics sorts.

541
00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:19,280
Speaker 3: It's a desire to keep Ukraine free, sovereign, insecure. Desire

542
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,919
Speaker 3: is different than the guarantee of their security, which is

543
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:26,520
Speaker 3: the actual opposite of what we should ever get ourselves into.

544
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:29,080
Speaker 3: It's nice to have a free and a sovereign and

545
00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:29,919
Speaker 3: secure Ukraine.

546
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:30,560
Speaker 1: It's nice to.

547
00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:32,520
Speaker 3: Have a lot of things. Honestly, the text of that

548
00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:34,800
Speaker 3: deal is perfect. It's like, yeah, we can express a

549
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:37,760
Speaker 3: rhetorical desire to have something, but we don't have to

550
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:40,480
Speaker 3: do anything about it. And that's the problem I have

551
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:44,359
Speaker 3: with what Zelensky ultimately wants. He wants not only he

552
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:46,520
Speaker 3: Let's be honest, a lot of the Ukrainian people now,

553
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 3: they think they belong in NATO, they think they're entitled

554
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 3: to our security umbrella. To us having to trigger Article

555
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:57,960
Speaker 3: five on their behalf. Sorry, never gonna happen, Like already,

556
00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:00,359
Speaker 3: not only you been invaded twenty percent of your country.

557
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:04,399
Speaker 3: They're in terms of the historical spheres of influence and

558
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:09,160
Speaker 3: in terms of the actual like economic and security benefit

559
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:13,280
Speaker 3: of adding this gigantic territory to our security umbrella and

560
00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:17,640
Speaker 3: our further interests. I mean, this would only further embroil

561
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:20,160
Speaker 3: US into the affairs of the continent, which is less

562
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:23,080
Speaker 3: and less and less important every day to the United

563
00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:27,200
Speaker 3: States economy and to the United States security. So overall,

564
00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:30,199
Speaker 3: the text or whatever of this deal, which is not

565
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:34,760
Speaker 3: one that secures any need right legally or whatever for

566
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:38,200
Speaker 3: the US to get involved here while reaping some benefit.

567
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:39,720
Speaker 1: That's the best you could possibly get.

568
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:42,399
Speaker 2: But Tigara, why do you think that Zelensky is proposing this.

569
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 2: It's because he knows if we have significant economic interest

570
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:49,360
Speaker 2: in the country, then we are going to defend those.

571
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:51,000
Speaker 1: Then we can make a choice.

572
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:53,439
Speaker 2: Especially we're talking about you know, this is going to

573
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:57,040
Speaker 2: be some of Trump's billionaires buddies that propose this, that

574
00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:59,560
Speaker 2: want to get their you know, their claws into the

575
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:03,399
Speaker 2: Ukraine economy, et cetera. And so that's the whole reason

576
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:06,399
Speaker 2: why Zelenski is open to this is because he sees

577
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 2: that as a way of guaranteeing that we stay embrailed

578
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:13,159
Speaker 2: in this in this country, that we keep these interests

579
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:15,199
Speaker 2: there and that we will defend them if they are

580
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:18,119
Speaker 2: encouraged upon. He sees it as being sort of like

581
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:19,120
Speaker 2: a security guarantee.

582
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:21,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't disagree, but the thing is that then

583
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:24,720
Speaker 3: actually prove it, you know, become important to us.

584
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:26,480
Speaker 1: If you are, then yeah, maybe we'll defend you.

585
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:28,800
Speaker 3: But for right now, I mean, if you just looked

586
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:31,520
Speaker 3: at the bilateral trade we had with Ukraine, we're doing

587
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:34,440
Speaker 3: four times more trade with Brazil, We're doing four times

588
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,119
Speaker 3: more trade with multiple other countries, then we do with

589
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:39,000
Speaker 3: Ukraine and Israel, by the way, if we all want

590
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:41,679
Speaker 3: to talk on those terms. But of course nobody also

591
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 3: nobody who's pushing this piece deal wants to see anything

592
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:48,040
Speaker 3: like that. My only point is that as we continue

593
00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 3: to go down this, we are marching towards, in my opinion,

594
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:55,680
Speaker 3: a good outcome, which is a rejection of this rhetoric

595
00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:59,119
Speaker 3: based international order, because it's not rules based, it's rhetoric based.

596
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:01,520
Speaker 3: Let's put the next up there, because this affirms that

597
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:05,680
Speaker 3: the US actually voted against the UN resolution quote condemning

598
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:08,640
Speaker 3: Russia for the Ukraine War. But this is why, again

599
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 3: I want to return to the point that the great

600
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:12,600
Speaker 3: powers rule the world. So there's a lot made of

601
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,640
Speaker 3: this from the pro Ukrainian side, they're like, oh my god,

602
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:19,480
Speaker 3: ninety three different countries voted in favor of this, eighteen

603
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:22,600
Speaker 3: against and sixty five abstained. Well, the people who voted

604
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:25,679
Speaker 3: against it are the US and Russia. China abstained, and

605
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:29,840
Speaker 3: so did India. So the world's largest population abstained, the

606
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:31,879
Speaker 3: second world's population abstained.

607
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:37,119
Speaker 1: Two out of the five p five powers voted against it.

608
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 3: So whatever, these ninety three other countries say, cool, nice,

609
00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 3: thank you for your words of affirmation.

610
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:44,000
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter.

611
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 3: And that's my point around international law or the UN

612
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:51,360
Speaker 3: or any of these other resolutes, complete crap, I mean,

613
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 3: And this is something where you just have to return

614
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 3: to the preference, in my opinion from what I can

615
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:02,760
Speaker 3: see from these liberals, is literally rhetoric as opposed to

616
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 3: a result.

617
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:04,920
Speaker 1: And the result is.

618
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:08,960
Speaker 3: Obvious no matter what, even if it was literal Ukraine vassalage,

619
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 3: if you wanted a quote, you know, independent Ukraine or

620
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:13,520
Speaker 3: at least of Russia.

621
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:14,880
Speaker 1: How is that not preferable?

622
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:18,960
Speaker 3: Then the continuing ongoing march to death of the entire

623
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 3: Ukrainian population, it's state, its economy and everything. The idea

624
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:25,520
Speaker 3: that it was just going to emerge as some you

625
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:28,320
Speaker 3: know what new Brussels or something is obviously not going

626
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:30,880
Speaker 3: to happen. And so I don't know, I find there's

627
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 3: just so much fake idealism, you know, that has been

628
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:36,840
Speaker 3: baked into this, both right and left by the way,

629
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 3: that comes into this which is falling apart on its

630
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:43,360
Speaker 3: own merits, and I think that is a necessary event

631
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 3: for a more stable international outcome in the future.

632
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:49,480
Speaker 2: Well, what I will just say is this First of all,

633
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:52,520
Speaker 2: you know, as I explained before, I don't think the

634
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:57,040
Speaker 2: answer to us having been hypocritical or you know, things

635
00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 2: being not great in the international order is to just say, so,

636
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:03,880
Speaker 2: let's just do total like barbarism and my mix right,

637
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 2: and you know, conquest here and there and everywhere else,

638
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:11,480
Speaker 2: and more militarism and likely more aggressive like Cold war

639
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:14,640
Speaker 2: posture towards China, et cetera. I don't think that that

640
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:17,240
Speaker 2: is the correct direction to go. In number one and

641
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:19,960
Speaker 2: number two, you can't ignore the fact, like we take

642
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 2: for granted now that all of these European nations can

643
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:28,560
Speaker 2: coexist peacefully, that has not been the historical track record.

644
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 4: And in fact, the.

645
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:33,960
Speaker 2: Architecture that was set up after World War Two, which

646
00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:37,320
Speaker 2: by the way, was set up to serve our interests primarily,

647
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 2: but also was quite effective at making sure that there

648
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:46,720
Speaker 2: were not repeated constant wars on the European continent. In fact,

649
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:50,280
Speaker 2: the Russian invasion of Ukraine is the largest land war

650
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:54,719
Speaker 2: in Europe since World War Two. So it's you know,

651
00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 2: it's not like it didn't accomplish anything. It actually was

652
00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:01,320
Speaker 2: quite successful in that way. And could it have been better?

653
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 2: Could we have like certainly the Cold War era use

654
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:09,480
Speaker 2: of all of these smaller countries in proxy wars against

655
00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 2: the Soviet Union and the you know, obsessive like have

656
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:16,360
Speaker 2: to get rid of any communist regime whatsoever like that

657
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:19,960
Speaker 2: was the wrong way to approach multipolarity. And frankly, I

658
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 2: think that's exactly the direction that we are headed back

659
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 2: in with the Trump administration.

660
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 1: I fire that we will see.

661
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:27,600
Speaker 3: But the point, you know, the reason why that that

662
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 3: mattered in the past, these European states warring were they

663
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 3: were the bedrock of the global system and of the

664
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:33,960
Speaker 3: global economy.

665
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:36,000
Speaker 1: They're irrelevant today there well, okay, still.

666
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:37,560
Speaker 4: Matters if they go to war with each other, the

667
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:38,640
Speaker 4: war with each other.

668
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:39,280
Speaker 1: That's their problem.

669
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 3: The only reason why did the United States get involved

670
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:43,760
Speaker 3: in World War One? Right, It's like, let's all be

671
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:46,560
Speaker 3: really honest about it. It was about the attacking of

672
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:49,320
Speaker 3: the Lusitania and about the well that was a pretext,

673
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:52,080
Speaker 3: and then US getting involved was to basically bigfoot the

674
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:55,040
Speaker 3: European powers and say no, we're the ones actually who

675
00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 3: are going to be in charge. Why, because we want

676
00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:00,240
Speaker 3: the spoils of the international system After World War two,

677
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:02,400
Speaker 3: what we become the come pre eminent guaranteur of the

678
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 3: West and of the rule space international or the Soviets

679
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:08,200
Speaker 3: get their side of it, which again is about a

680
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 3: complete division of the world for market based purposes. Europe

681
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:14,959
Speaker 3: will no longer even be fifty percent of global GDP

682
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:19,120
Speaker 3: by twenty thirty. Its irrelevance to the global affairs is

683
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 3: dramatic compared to how it was in one hundred years

684
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:24,040
Speaker 3: ago or even seventy five years ago.

685
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:25,360
Speaker 1: So if there's a.

686
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 3: War between Latvia and Estonia, it doesn't matter at all.

687
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:32,040
Speaker 2: But Tiger, you're missing one point a little bit, which

688
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:35,280
Speaker 2: isn't that you know, Europe is the most important region

689
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:37,800
Speaker 2: on the planet right now or whatever. My point is

690
00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:40,760
Speaker 2: that you dismissed that international architecture that was set up

691
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 2: after World War Two as being fake and a waste

692
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 2: of time and not accomplishing anything.

693
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:47,040
Speaker 1: And that's just not true.

694
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 4: That's just not true.

695
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:53,240
Speaker 2: That architecture actually did service for years, even though you know,

696
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:55,840
Speaker 2: I think again, the way we approach multipolarity with the

697
00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:59,320
Speaker 2: Cold War was deeply destructive and led to that incredibly

698
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:03,840
Speaker 2: hypocritical approach which ultimately leads to the downfall of all

699
00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:04,240
Speaker 2: of this.

700
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:07,360
Speaker 4: But that international architecture that was set up.

701
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:10,960
Speaker 2: It did its job in terms of preventing wars additional

702
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 2: wars in Europe. So you know, to say, none of

703
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:16,320
Speaker 2: this is possible and we can't do any better than

704
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:19,440
Speaker 2: just barbarism and conquest and taking over whatever countries we

705
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:21,680
Speaker 2: feel like taking over. I don't think that that is

706
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 2: the case if you look at the historical record.

707
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:25,880
Speaker 3: But my point is is that that was an outdated

708
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:29,120
Speaker 3: model for an outdated market which does not exist anymore.

709
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:31,640
Speaker 3: The United States is an Asian power, and this one

710
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 3: where it's destiny for both on a consumer at a

711
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:37,040
Speaker 3: technological level, will be accomplished there. No, there's not a

712
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 3: seeringle serious economist who would even dispute that even Obama

713
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:42,160
Speaker 3: had the whole.

714
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:44,840
Speaker 1: Quote unquote pivot to Asia. This has been on paper

715
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:45,160
Speaker 1: on it.

716
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:47,080
Speaker 3: If you just look at it as a balance sheet

717
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:50,520
Speaker 3: and take out everybody's nice little vacations to Munich or

718
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 3: to Italy or whatever, it's obvious. And my point is

719
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:58,320
Speaker 3: that over committing to this European security and fetishizing it

720
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 3: as some great, incredible thing, just because we did it

721
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 3: sixty years ago, we should continue to do it today,

722
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:05,920
Speaker 3: which is mostly the argument. If you really look at

723
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:08,279
Speaker 3: it on a merit level. For why we should be

724
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 3: so supportive of Ukraine is bad for the overall US.

725
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:14,799
Speaker 1: Interest now I know, the whole barbarism and all that.

726
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:18,719
Speaker 3: Again, like what you think, other countries don't operate that way,

727
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 3: Like in a certain sense, there's a Thucidides trap there

728
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:23,640
Speaker 3: always will be with the way that great powers function

729
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 3: inside of the system. In a sense, you don't have

730
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:30,359
Speaker 3: any choice. And beyond that, when we talk about how

731
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:34,040
Speaker 3: the United States has conducted itself, it has always been

732
00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:37,799
Speaker 3: this way. It's just been rhetorically dressed up. It's not

733
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:40,920
Speaker 3: just us, all these other countries. Like when China wants to,

734
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 3: you know, justify its expansion, it does so in the

735
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:48,320
Speaker 3: same rhetoric, like in criticism of Western rules based international

736
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:50,680
Speaker 3: or when Russia invades Ukraine, how do they do it?

737
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 3: They do it in a criticism again, as if they're

738
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:55,400
Speaker 3: the ones who are being encroached upon. They don't just

739
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:58,359
Speaker 3: outwardly say we want, you know, oil or whatever, or

740
00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:01,000
Speaker 3: it used to be ours and so thus we deserve it.

741
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:03,360
Speaker 1: That's basically their argument, which is stupid.

742
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:05,239
Speaker 3: But that's what it all comes down to, and so

743
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:08,839
Speaker 3: honesty in the international system Let's say you were talking

744
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 3: there about Russia and China and the United States, this

745
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:13,720
Speaker 3: idea of a meeting.

746
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:16,440
Speaker 1: It will not happen in the rhetoric that you're describing.

747
00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 3: The only way it would happen is to be like,

748
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:21,160
Speaker 3: all right, let's all be honest here, who needs what?

749
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:23,160
Speaker 3: How is it going to happen? And you know who

750
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:25,279
Speaker 3: we borrow this from. This is the great irony. This

751
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 3: is what the European powers did before World War One.

752
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:31,799
Speaker 3: They carved up the world because they were the guaranteurs

753
00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:35,200
Speaker 3: of security with the might and the ability to enforce

754
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:38,440
Speaker 3: those borders, and there actually was a period of some

755
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:39,719
Speaker 3: relative piece on them.

756
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:40,839
Speaker 4: Then there was World War One.

757
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, I mean I didn't say every system is perfect,

758
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:46,479
Speaker 3: but it always breaks down because things change.

759
00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:48,319
Speaker 2: Here's what I would say, and then we can move on,

760
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:53,760
Speaker 2: which is that when we have pursued what we perceived

761
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 2: to be in our just total naked self interest. For example,

762
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:02,160
Speaker 2: when we went into a rock, those things have ended

763
00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:03,560
Speaker 2: up being a disaster.

764
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 3: Well, I would flip it. I don't scar that was

765
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:07,240
Speaker 3: for our self interest and that was part of the problem.

766
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 6: Of course.

767
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:10,959
Speaker 2: I mean that I think we clearly went into cure

768
00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:14,080
Speaker 2: natural resources, just as we're now talking about being in

769
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:16,680
Speaker 2: Ukraine forever to secure natural resource, just like we're talking

770
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:20,920
Speaker 2: about being greenland in Panama, in Gaza to secure our

771
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:24,439
Speaker 2: own naked self interest. And so what I would say

772
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:27,239
Speaker 2: is that I don't think that that is number one

773
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:31,959
Speaker 2: beneficial to America in the long term whatsoever. And number two,

774
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:34,600
Speaker 2: I certainly don't think it's good for you know, the

775
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:38,040
Speaker 2: people of those countries who are getting blown up and

776
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:39,719
Speaker 2: having their societies destroyed.

777
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:41,880
Speaker 4: And the amount of blowback.

778
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 2: That we've seen from that hypocritical adventurism where we were

779
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:49,480
Speaker 2: really nakedly pursuing our self interest, no matter what language

780
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:52,280
Speaker 2: we know wrapped it around democracy or markets or whatever,

781
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:54,880
Speaker 2: where we really were just nakedly pursuing our self interest.

782
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 2: The amount of blowback from that has been utterly catastrophic

783
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:02,920
Speaker 2: for US. So'suing it more nakedly without an even ear

784
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 2: of democracy. It doesn't improve the fact that this has

785
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 2: led us. That is a big part of the decline

786
00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:13,680
Speaker 2: of this country. Is that adventurism, and is that naked

787
00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:16,080
Speaker 2: pursuit of our own self interest which has led to

788
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:19,880
Speaker 2: massive blowbacks for our own country and created more horror

789
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 2: more barbarism, more terror, more danger.

790
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:23,399
Speaker 4: All of that.

791
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:25,960
Speaker 3: My last word would be I would dispute that the

792
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:28,640
Speaker 3: Second Iraq War was a war of national interests, and

793
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:31,400
Speaker 3: that's exactly why it was such a terrible idea. It

794
00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:35,640
Speaker 3: was born of an ideological obsession with nation building, and yes,

795
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:38,880
Speaker 3: securing the oil was also a great uh.

796
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:39,920
Speaker 1: It didn't even work out.

797
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:42,920
Speaker 3: Ironically, the Chinese currently control the oil market out of Iraq.

798
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:45,600
Speaker 3: But if we look in the past at both Vietnam

799
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:49,600
Speaker 3: and the Second Iraq War, those were ideological projects, not

800
00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:53,359
Speaker 3: born of national interests. They've basically fused ideology with well,

801
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:56,320
Speaker 3: it's in the US interest to make sure South Vietnam

802
00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:56,960
Speaker 3: is demanded.

803
00:37:57,040 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 2: It sounds so a domino effects later they thought of

804
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:02,200
Speaker 2: it iry.

805
00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:05,200
Speaker 3: My point is that if you actually had a true

806
00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:08,840
Speaker 3: balance sheet analysis of that, which many realists at the

807
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:12,439
Speaker 3: time of both Iraq and Vietnam said, you would never

808
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:15,000
Speaker 3: do it, and actually they would be better off and

809
00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 3: so would we. And so if we pursue things that

810
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:21,919
Speaker 3: are openly from a position of national interests and don't

811
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:25,319
Speaker 3: let ourselves get sucked down the trap of democracy or

812
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:29,879
Speaker 3: human rights or stopping communism, or we have to can't

813
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:33,440
Speaker 3: let the smoking gun be a mushroom cloud, then we

814
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:36,200
Speaker 3: will be better off overall. This is kind of a

815
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 3: Kissingerian view of the world, which I agree with one

816
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:42,239
Speaker 3: hundred percent, and it was one where if we had

817
00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:45,239
Speaker 3: pursued that we'd be richer, we'd be more prosperous.

818
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:47,279
Speaker 1: Those people will be better off and we would be

819
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:47,839
Speaker 1: better off.

820
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 3: So you can read it two different ways, but I

821
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:53,920
Speaker 3: would read them much more of mistakes of ideology rather

822
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:56,239
Speaker 3: than of mistakes of natural interests. I would say, when

823
00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:58,200
Speaker 3: the United States works in its national untests, it actually

824
00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:00,360
Speaker 3: works out pretty damn well. And it's when we depart

825
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:03,239
Speaker 3: from that, like our stupid experiments in Cuba and in

826
00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:06,080
Speaker 3: the Philippines, when we just want to like appear, you know,

827
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:09,080
Speaker 3: like one of the great powers, or whenever we pursue,

828
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:12,520
Speaker 3: you know, this land war in Asia against Vietnam, or

829
00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:16,520
Speaker 3: invade Iraq for no purpose literally whatsoever, that's when we

830
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:18,840
Speaker 3: lose our treasure. That's exactly how the Roman Empire, like

831
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:19,479
Speaker 3: frustrat as.

832
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:22,040
Speaker 2: Well, for example, wanting to take over Gaza. I mean,

833
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:23,480
Speaker 2: that's the problem, that's I know you do.

834
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:25,280
Speaker 1: We're doing that on behalf of these rayless.

835
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:28,080
Speaker 2: The problem That's the problem is that the way you

836
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:31,400
Speaker 2: might calculate that balance sheet as you described it is

837
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:34,200
Speaker 2: not there's no like universal way to calculate that.

838
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:36,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's and so you know Trump.

839
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:38,880
Speaker 2: Is looking at it and his calculation is, Oh, we

840
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:41,960
Speaker 2: should have fifty percent of Ukraine, which again obligates us

841
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:45,080
Speaker 2: to Ukraine forever. Oh we should take over Greenland. Oh

842
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:47,600
Speaker 2: we should take over Panama. Oh we should take over Canada.

843
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:49,880
Speaker 2: Oh we should bomb Mexico. Oh we should do total

844
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:52,239
Speaker 2: ethnic cleansing and genocide in Gaza and take that over,

845
00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:54,759
Speaker 2: because that'll be good for our interests. That's That's what

846
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:58,600
Speaker 2: I'm saying, is that when you are unconstrained by anything

847
00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:01,799
Speaker 2: and it's just purely might makes right, what you're going

848
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:05,800
Speaker 2: to end up with is a lot of disastrous foreign

849
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:09,719
Speaker 2: adventurism that both is bad for our country, but also, yes,

850
00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:11,560
Speaker 2: I do care about the fact that you know it

851
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:16,440
Speaker 2: leads to mass slaughter and devastation and horror for people

852
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:19,239
Speaker 2: in other countries around the world too, like the Palestinians,

853
00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:19,760
Speaker 2: for example.

854
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:23,879
Speaker 1: I think that's fair. I understand how you got there.

855
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:26,160
Speaker 3: I again, I just think and look, you're right in

856
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:28,719
Speaker 3: terms of the balance sheet many people disagree with me.

857
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:30,680
Speaker 3: All the Libs in my neighborhood, they will tell you

858
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:33,400
Speaker 3: Ukraine as a vital national interest and they can express

859
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:35,959
Speaker 3: their wish at the ballot box, you know, if they will.

860
00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:38,200
Speaker 3: This is just an argument that I made. This view

861
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:41,480
Speaker 3: is not popular in Washington. It's really not actually all

862
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:44,279
Speaker 3: that popular in America. Most Americans like to trust up

863
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:47,560
Speaker 3: you know, you know, their their foreign policy and some

864
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:50,000
Speaker 3: sort of doing good in the world. It's how we

865
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:51,000
Speaker 3: basically serve.

866
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:53,040
Speaker 2: Because humans want to believe that they can make the

867
00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:57,760
Speaker 2: world like that we don't have to accept naked barbarism, colonialism, imperialism,

868
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:01,600
Speaker 2: that things can be improved. They yes, they have a

869
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:06,000
Speaker 2: basic belief in the power of human beings to improve civilization.

870
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:09,480
Speaker 2: And instead what we're seeing is just a return to well,

871
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:13,960
Speaker 2: actually we're just going to go back to pure resource grabs.

872
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:17,720
Speaker 2: You know that we feel like doing an adventurism around

873
00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:18,880
Speaker 2: the world wherever we feel like.

874
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:21,400
Speaker 3: I think the nightmare scenarios if that doing that would

875
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:24,040
Speaker 3: actually lead to a more stable scenario. Now, of course,

876
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:26,120
Speaker 3: as I said, the big risk of that is gaza,

877
00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:28,960
Speaker 3: because that is the definition of doing something outside your

878
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:32,879
Speaker 3: own national interest, and for literally another nation's interest, which

879
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:34,480
Speaker 3: we will get to later on in the show. So

880
00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:36,200
Speaker 3: why don't we send it there? All right, it's been

881
00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:36,880
Speaker 3: a good discussion.

882
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:41,799
Speaker 2: Yes, all right, let's move on to the latest of

883
00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:44,400
Speaker 2: whatever the hell is going on with this doje Elon

884
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:46,719
Speaker 2: email that he sent out and asking for everybody to

885
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:50,320
Speaker 2: send in their five bullet points, et cetera. So Trump

886
00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:54,279
Speaker 2: yesterday when he was with Emmanuel Macron, got asked about

887
00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:58,000
Speaker 2: the Elon email and whether or not people should respond

888
00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:01,040
Speaker 2: and how he felt about it. He seems in this conversation,

889
00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:03,719
Speaker 2: or really go to bat for Elon and back him up.

890
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:05,279
Speaker 4: Let's take a listen to what he had to say.

891
00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:06,440
Speaker 1: People to ignore it.

892
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:08,359
Speaker 5: But you're learning about the last email that was sent

893
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:11,759
Speaker 5: where he wanted to know what you did this week?

894
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:13,960
Speaker 5: You know why he wanted that. By the way, I

895
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:17,120
Speaker 5: thought it was great because we have people that don't

896
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:19,040
Speaker 5: show up to work and nobody even knows if they

897
00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:21,839
Speaker 5: work for the government. So by asking the question tell

898
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:24,200
Speaker 5: us what you did this week, what he's doing is

899
00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:27,880
Speaker 5: saying are you actually working? And then if you don't answer,

900
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:32,280
Speaker 5: like you're sort of semi fired or you're fired because

901
00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:34,719
Speaker 5: a lot of people are not answering because they don't

902
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:38,880
Speaker 5: even exist. They're trying to find that's how badly various

903
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:41,480
Speaker 5: parts of our government were run by it, especially by

904
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:44,399
Speaker 5: this last group. So what they're doing is they're trying

905
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:47,160
Speaker 5: to find out who's working for the government. Are we

906
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:49,720
Speaker 5: paying other people that aren't working?

907
00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:51,040
Speaker 1: And you know, where is all this?

908
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:55,400
Speaker 5: Where's the money? Gud We have found hundreds of billions

909
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:58,960
Speaker 5: of dollars of fraud so far, and we've just started.

910
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:02,239
Speaker 5: Some of the agency heads instructed their employees not to

911
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:04,360
Speaker 5: respond because they were waiting on further guidance.

912
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:06,879
Speaker 3: But Elon Musk's tweet said a failure to respond would

913
00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:07,840
Speaker 3: be taken as a resignation.

914
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:10,040
Speaker 5: So there's been a disconnect in communications.

915
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:11,320
Speaker 4: Are you concerned all about that?

916
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:12,000
Speaker 1: No?

917
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:14,280
Speaker 5: No, no, that was done in a friendly manner. Only

918
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:17,920
Speaker 5: things such as perhaps Marco at State Department where they

919
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:21,399
Speaker 5: have very confidential things, or the FBI where they're working

920
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:24,680
Speaker 5: on confidential things. And they don't mean that in any

921
00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:28,040
Speaker 5: way combatively with Elon did just say there are some

922
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:30,480
Speaker 5: people that you don't want to really have them tell

923
00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:32,320
Speaker 5: you what they're working on last week.

924
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:35,719
Speaker 2: They don't mean that in any way combative. So he's yeah,

925
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:38,439
Speaker 2: I mean, so number one, he's backing at Elon. Number

926
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:41,120
Speaker 2: two is trying to downplay what we covered yesterday, which

927
00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:43,480
Speaker 2: is that a bunch of these agency heads really started

928
00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:45,720
Speaker 2: actually by cash Metal, but then the Apartment of Defense

929
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:50,000
Speaker 2: jumps in Secretary of State Marco Rubiozi reference RFK Junior

930
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:51,080
Speaker 2: went one way and then went.

931
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:51,560
Speaker 1: The other way.

932
00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:53,359
Speaker 4: Telsey Gabbert like basically.

933
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:55,879
Speaker 2: All the agency heads ultimately were like, no to their

934
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:58,320
Speaker 2: own people, you don't have to reply to this email.

935
00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:00,960
Speaker 2: So Trump's trying to downplay that, but he seems to

936
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:04,399
Speaker 2: back up Elon there. Then let's put this next piece

937
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:07,279
Speaker 2: up on the screen. This is great reporting from our

938
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:09,360
Speaker 2: friend Jeff Stein and co. By the way, Jeff Stein

939
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:12,960
Speaker 2: got a promotion over the Washington Post. Congratulations to him.

940
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:15,920
Speaker 2: He's going to be their chief economic correspondent. In any case,

941
00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:21,040
Speaker 2: Trump administration tells agencies they can ignore Musk's order on

942
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:24,640
Speaker 2: this email reply. The awsome personnel management told HR officials

943
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:27,280
Speaker 2: that employees would not be let go for not replying

944
00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:30,680
Speaker 2: to an email asking what they did last week. So

945
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:34,000
Speaker 2: seems to contradict Trump. But this is the you know,

946
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:37,319
Speaker 2: direction coming from effectively like the HR Department of the

947
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:41,880
Speaker 2: whole federal government. This is the o PM email that

948
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:46,439
Speaker 2: came out later in the day that seems to now

949
00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:51,000
Speaker 2: indicate people are supposed to respond to this email. They say,

950
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:53,480
Speaker 2: to further clarify response to the email sent on Saturday's

951
00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:56,400
Speaker 2: voluntary was strongly encourage once again, you should not transmit

952
00:44:56,719 --> 00:44:59,720
Speaker 2: any confidential or sensitive privilege or investigative information.

953
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:02,239
Speaker 4: Please send your bullets to this email going forward.

954
00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:05,600
Speaker 2: I've asked the office to operationalize this exercise, so please

955
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:06,800
Speaker 2: stay tuned for instructions.

956
00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:07,400
Speaker 4: In the future.

957
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:11,600
Speaker 2: OPM may consider incorporating expectation that employees submit weekly accomplishment

958
00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:15,319
Speaker 2: bullets into its regular weekly reporting structure, because you know,

959
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:18,120
Speaker 2: having to send in five bullshit bullets every week is

960
00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:21,160
Speaker 2: certainly going to improve government efficiency. Again, thank you for

961
00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:24,120
Speaker 2: your dedication to our agency's mission. So they're saying here

962
00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:28,960
Speaker 2: they're going to operationalize this exercise moving forward. And then

963
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:31,960
Speaker 2: we've got one other piece here from Elon. He says,

964
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:34,520
Speaker 2: subject to the discretion of the President, they will be

965
00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:38,200
Speaker 2: given another chance for referring two employees who did not respond.

966
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:41,520
Speaker 2: Failure to respond a second time will result in termination.

967
00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:44,480
Speaker 4: So anyway kind of indications all over the place.

968
00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:47,759
Speaker 2: Trump backs up Elon, Then the Office Personnel Management says, no,

969
00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:50,719
Speaker 2: you don't have to respond. Elon says you're going to

970
00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:53,480
Speaker 2: have to. You get one more chance. Then OPM comes

971
00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:56,239
Speaker 2: in and says, well, it's not mandatory right now, but

972
00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:57,520
Speaker 2: we're going to operationalize this.

973
00:45:57,640 --> 00:45:58,920
Speaker 4: So that's basically where things are.

974
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:02,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, I have a read now of elon blowback, which

975
00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:04,920
Speaker 3: I was trying to tease out to you yesterday. Is

976
00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:09,799
Speaker 3: boss theory is that the more Elon is seen as

977
00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:14,879
Speaker 3: a dickhead boss as opposed to a visionary entrepreneur, the

978
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:17,960
Speaker 3: more Americans will turn against him. So the vast majority

979
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:20,080
Speaker 3: of Americans are not like us. They're not self employed,

980
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:21,680
Speaker 3: you know, they don't own their own business.

981
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:22,160
Speaker 1: And that's fine.

982
00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:24,600
Speaker 3: It's a pain in the ass over all for the

983
00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:26,719
Speaker 3: people who want to know what it's like out there.

984
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:28,800
Speaker 3: They work for W two, or they have a boss

985
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:31,160
Speaker 3: right or they and or are the boss, having been

986
00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:34,080
Speaker 3: subject to somebody's authority previously. You and I previously have

987
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:36,799
Speaker 3: worked office job, so you know intimately what it's like

988
00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:40,400
Speaker 3: to have a literal moron trying to performance review you

989
00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:43,280
Speaker 3: or tell you what you can and can't do. Differently

990
00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:46,680
Speaker 3: in some sort of like hr software that rates you

991
00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:50,719
Speaker 3: one out of four. It's both dehumanizing and also incredibly

992
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:53,640
Speaker 3: stupid at the same time. But the stakes are so

993
00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:56,799
Speaker 3: high because your salary is on the line. And so

994
00:46:57,040 --> 00:47:00,520
Speaker 3: I believe that the more Elon has seen as a

995
00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:04,960
Speaker 3: capricious and an annoying boss over the vast majority of

996
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:08,120
Speaker 3: over the largest employee in the employer in the United States,

997
00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:11,120
Speaker 3: and the more that people have a connection to that employer,

998
00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:13,680
Speaker 3: there will be more pushback against that. And now part

999
00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:16,239
Speaker 3: of the reason why most Americans had not really cared

1000
00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:18,200
Speaker 3: about it previously is you know, at the end of

1001
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:21,640
Speaker 3: the day, the private institutions like Tesla or SpaceX, you

1002
00:47:21,719 --> 00:47:23,239
Speaker 3: have a choice of whether you want to work there

1003
00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:25,440
Speaker 3: or not. You're also incredibly well compensated, and it's not

1004
00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:28,879
Speaker 3: like worldly important that you work in your job, which

1005
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:31,360
Speaker 3: at least some government jobs are. But I think that

1006
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:35,480
Speaker 3: the more publicity that there's a spotlight on this type

1007
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:39,200
Speaker 3: of behavior, that Americans really don't like to be screwed

1008
00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:41,680
Speaker 3: with by their boss. I remember reading a statistic it's

1009
00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:43,880
Speaker 3: like seventy percent of people like hate their boss, or

1010
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:46,320
Speaker 3: they were just like twenty some percent of people would

1011
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:48,640
Speaker 3: literally like kill their boss if they had, or say

1012
00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:49,439
Speaker 3: they would they could.

1013
00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:51,720
Speaker 1: People really hate their boss.

1014
00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:53,759
Speaker 3: I get it, you know, it's one of those where

1015
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:56,160
Speaker 3: I've been in that position before, where they're so annoying,

1016
00:47:56,719 --> 00:47:59,799
Speaker 3: and so I think that the more that this permeates

1017
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:02,960
Speaker 3: to people, it will really start to piss people off,

1018
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:06,080
Speaker 3: because if you think about it, white collar, service based,

1019
00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:08,520
Speaker 3: everybody knows what it's like to have an annoying supervisor,

1020
00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:10,160
Speaker 3: or to be scheduled, or.

1021
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:12,240
Speaker 1: To be told one thing and then told the opposite.

1022
00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:14,680
Speaker 3: I mean, how often does that happen when you work

1023
00:48:14,719 --> 00:48:15,440
Speaker 3: in a workplace.

1024
00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:16,200
Speaker 1: It's maddening.

1025
00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:20,920
Speaker 2: And white collar employees get treated way more humanly and

1026
00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:24,160
Speaker 2: I mean like literally like human beings than blue collar workers,

1027
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:29,040
Speaker 2: who you know, are completely dehumanized, often like searched, subject

1028
00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:33,719
Speaker 2: to these ridiculous security procedures and surveiled even while they're

1029
00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:36,160
Speaker 2: in the breakroom eating their lunch and all that sort

1030
00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:39,520
Speaker 2: of crap. And so, yeah, everybody hates bosses.

1031
00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:41,160
Speaker 4: Everybody hates bosses.

1032
00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:42,920
Speaker 2: Really, So I think you're right about that, and I

1033
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:47,520
Speaker 2: think Elon is leaning hard into the asshole boss persona.

1034
00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:49,480
Speaker 4: So when you couple.

1035
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:53,279
Speaker 2: That with the fact that you know these federal garment jobs.

1036
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:55,960
Speaker 2: I was telling Soccer before the show, one of the

1037
00:48:55,960 --> 00:48:58,440
Speaker 2: states that has the highest proportion of federal government workers

1038
00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:01,600
Speaker 2: is actually Alaska. Pople think of federal government workers being

1039
00:49:01,640 --> 00:49:04,319
Speaker 2: here in d C. They buy and large are not.

1040
00:49:04,520 --> 00:49:06,360
Speaker 2: I mean, there are many here in DC, this is

1041
00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:09,440
Speaker 2: obviously the greatest concentration of them, but they're spread down

1042
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:12,720
Speaker 2: across the country and their impact is felt across the country.

1043
00:49:12,760 --> 00:49:15,359
Speaker 2: And then you think about like the ancillary workers and

1044
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:18,520
Speaker 2: just the You know, anytime you have this level of

1045
00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:21,560
Speaker 2: like glee and delight and firing people and destroying their

1046
00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:25,680
Speaker 2: lives in their livelihood, it's gonna rub people the wrong way.

1047
00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:29,000
Speaker 2: So I think we are starting to see that pushback.

1048
00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:31,280
Speaker 2: You know, what's going to happen with this frickin' Elon

1049
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:33,960
Speaker 2: bullet point sich you I don't really know, and it

1050
00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:38,520
Speaker 2: is an interesting subplot to see. And one thing I

1051
00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:43,640
Speaker 2: didn't anticipate is the possibility that the agency heads themselves

1052
00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:48,160
Speaker 2: could be somewhat of a check on Elon. Because they

1053
00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:50,600
Speaker 2: got the their Senate confirmations, they went through the thing.

1054
00:49:50,640 --> 00:49:52,560
Speaker 2: They thought they were getting this level of power and

1055
00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:56,440
Speaker 2: agency within these departments, and then they're watching Elon just

1056
00:49:56,440 --> 00:49:59,359
Speaker 2: completely bigfoot them, even to the point of like, well,

1057
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:01,080
Speaker 2: I get to say who works for you and who

1058
00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:03,600
Speaker 2: does what and how this whole thing is run, and

1059
00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:05,719
Speaker 2: I'm going to get access to all your data and

1060
00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:08,600
Speaker 2: my little like goofy twenty year olds are going to

1061
00:50:08,680 --> 00:50:10,799
Speaker 2: come in and run wild through your agency whenever the

1062
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:12,719
Speaker 2: hell they feel like it, whether you want them there

1063
00:50:12,840 --> 00:50:17,160
Speaker 2: or not. And so while the congressional Republicans, because of

1064
00:50:17,680 --> 00:50:19,840
Speaker 2: the politics around it, will just bend the need of

1065
00:50:19,840 --> 00:50:22,560
Speaker 2: Trump and Elon, and Elon has threatened them with primary challenges,

1066
00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:25,440
Speaker 2: and that's an important enforcement mechanism, et cetera. It's a

1067
00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:28,200
Speaker 2: little bit different dynamic with these agency heads. So it

1068
00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:30,800
Speaker 2: is a particular dynamic that I want to watch and

1069
00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:33,160
Speaker 2: I think is a little bit unsettled as of now

1070
00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:35,640
Speaker 2: in terms of how all of that is going to

1071
00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:40,439
Speaker 2: play out. There was yesterday an interesting protest, I guess

1072
00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:44,200
Speaker 2: you would say, at the Department of Housing and Urban Development,

1073
00:50:44,239 --> 00:50:46,440
Speaker 2: we can put this up on the screen. Somebody hacked

1074
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:52,160
Speaker 2: into the screen the building and played this AI generated

1075
00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:56,680
Speaker 2: video of Elon Elon having is like feet kissed.

1076
00:50:56,840 --> 00:50:58,479
Speaker 4: But yeah, it's it's kind.

1077
00:50:58,400 --> 00:51:00,359
Speaker 1: Of disturbing to see she put a trigger one to

1078
00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:01,000
Speaker 1: be honest with.

1079
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:04,520
Speaker 2: You, and then across the screen it reads, long live

1080
00:51:04,680 --> 00:51:08,480
Speaker 2: the real King courts, a reference to the position of

1081
00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:13,120
Speaker 2: power Elon has taken. And also Trump's previous reference last

1082
00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:15,440
Speaker 2: week to long live the King in the context of

1083
00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:19,760
Speaker 2: the New York congestion pricing situation. So that is something

1084
00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:22,840
Speaker 2: that happened, that was confirmed by multiple reporters, including Justine

1085
00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:26,520
Speaker 2: as I said, there's also a few developments in terms

1086
00:51:26,560 --> 00:51:29,279
Speaker 2: of the legal battles against Doge. We can put this

1087
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:33,520
Speaker 2: next one up on the screen. So the Federal ethics

1088
00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:37,080
Speaker 2: watchdog that Trump has been blocked from firing by a

1089
00:51:37,080 --> 00:51:40,600
Speaker 2: federal court has ruled that some of the terminations of

1090
00:51:40,680 --> 00:51:45,799
Speaker 2: probationary employees appear to be illegal. So Trump tried to

1091
00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:48,319
Speaker 2: fire this dude, a court said you can't do that,

1092
00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:50,960
Speaker 2: or at least there's a temporary injunction put in on that.

1093
00:51:51,120 --> 00:51:53,319
Speaker 2: And so he has said that according to and this

1094
00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:56,360
Speaker 2: is not a court ruling, to be clear from Hampton Dellinger,

1095
00:51:56,400 --> 00:51:59,320
Speaker 2: this is just he's the Federal ethics watchdog. He's advising

1096
00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:05,080
Speaker 2: that some of these probationary employee firings may be illegal.

1097
00:52:05,480 --> 00:52:07,319
Speaker 2: You also had we don't have an element for this.

1098
00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:11,880
Speaker 2: But yesterday you had a judge that really harshly questioned

1099
00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:17,239
Speaker 2: the constitutional constitutionality of the entire setup of DOGE. And

1100
00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:21,040
Speaker 2: part of this soccer comes down to you, guys. Remember

1101
00:52:21,560 --> 00:52:25,240
Speaker 2: the Trump administration put in this court filing like Elon

1102
00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:27,480
Speaker 2: he has nothing to do with DOGE, Like he's not

1103
00:52:27,520 --> 00:52:30,080
Speaker 2: in charge of DOGE, He's just an advisor to the president.

1104
00:52:30,520 --> 00:52:33,279
Speaker 2: But then when this judge was questioning them, okay, well

1105
00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:36,440
Speaker 2: then who is in charge of DOGE, they had they

1106
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:39,680
Speaker 2: couldn't answer, They had no idea. And the reason that

1107
00:52:39,719 --> 00:52:43,680
Speaker 2: this is important in terms of its potential constitutionality is

1108
00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:45,719
Speaker 2: there something called the appointments Clause, which means if you

1109
00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:48,640
Speaker 2: have a significant position, it has to be confirmed by

1110
00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:51,960
Speaker 2: the Senate. That's why the government was trying to say, like, oh,

1111
00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:54,280
Speaker 2: Elon doesn't have anything to do with that, because obviously

1112
00:52:54,280 --> 00:52:57,040
Speaker 2: he's not confirmed by the Senate. And so the fact

1113
00:52:57,040 --> 00:52:59,680
Speaker 2: that they're this far in the administration and they're pretending

1114
00:52:59,719 --> 00:53:02,600
Speaker 2: Elon not in charge when like clearly he is number

1115
00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:06,400
Speaker 2: one and number two, they can't say who the acting

1116
00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:10,320
Speaker 2: director of DOGE is when it obviously has been given

1117
00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:14,080
Speaker 2: these incredible hole of government powers. That's why this judge

1118
00:53:14,120 --> 00:53:17,520
Speaker 2: was questioning whether or not this whole situation was constitutional

1119
00:53:17,560 --> 00:53:17,799
Speaker 2: at all.

1120
00:53:17,880 --> 00:53:20,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a very interesting in terms of how this

1121
00:53:20,880 --> 00:53:23,440
Speaker 3: will continue in the core process. But for me, I

1122
00:53:23,480 --> 00:53:27,200
Speaker 3: am just still mystified of this whole oer PM situation

1123
00:53:27,360 --> 00:53:30,840
Speaker 3: because it does really get to a crux of It

1124
00:53:30,880 --> 00:53:33,960
Speaker 3: gets to the crux of who not only who's in charge,

1125
00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:37,680
Speaker 3: but to what extent they will have authority going forward

1126
00:53:38,120 --> 00:53:41,120
Speaker 3: under their own department and if Elon can just parachute

1127
00:53:41,120 --> 00:53:43,719
Speaker 3: in and outside of some programs, like is he going

1128
00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:45,800
Speaker 3: to be able to run the so called day to

1129
00:53:45,880 --> 00:53:47,520
Speaker 3: day I mean, I guess the thing is with Trump,

1130
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:49,600
Speaker 3: And again I think this is the thing about Trump

1131
00:53:49,640 --> 00:53:49,920
Speaker 3: as well.

1132
00:53:49,960 --> 00:53:53,240
Speaker 1: Trump is also a boss, right. Trump is also somebody who.

1133
00:53:53,040 --> 00:53:56,160
Speaker 3: Probably empathizes with this idea like, oh, my employees are

1134
00:53:56,160 --> 00:53:58,600
Speaker 3: stealing from me or you know, they're taking advantage of me.

1135
00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:00,920
Speaker 3: And so now that he runs the government, he probably

1136
00:54:01,040 --> 00:54:05,160
Speaker 3: empathizes with that sending such an email. But this, like

1137
00:54:05,239 --> 00:54:08,840
Speaker 3: I said, I think it's starting to flirt with people

1138
00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:12,640
Speaker 3: who are feeling jerked around, because that's where I think

1139
00:54:12,680 --> 00:54:17,000
Speaker 3: most people can again empathize with the chaotic nature of

1140
00:54:17,080 --> 00:54:18,560
Speaker 3: all of this, and if there was a plan and

1141
00:54:18,560 --> 00:54:19,920
Speaker 3: there were going to be cuts, I think a lot

1142
00:54:19,960 --> 00:54:21,840
Speaker 3: of people would be fine with it, you know, but

1143
00:54:22,160 --> 00:54:24,080
Speaker 3: or or at least Trump maga folks would be not

1144
00:54:24,120 --> 00:54:27,520
Speaker 3: necessarily liberal ones. But the idea that your job boys

1145
00:54:27,560 --> 00:54:30,240
Speaker 3: in jeopardy or not, and all of these legal theories

1146
00:54:30,239 --> 00:54:32,359
Speaker 3: and you have to send us email or not. It

1147
00:54:32,440 --> 00:54:35,600
Speaker 3: detracts from the idea that there's like a steady hand

1148
00:54:35,880 --> 00:54:38,360
Speaker 3: and competence on the wheel, which, if you think about it,

1149
00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:41,399
Speaker 3: that was the pitch that Donald Trump made whenever he

1150
00:54:41,440 --> 00:54:43,720
Speaker 3: came back to office, is I'm going to make everything

1151
00:54:43,719 --> 00:54:46,640
Speaker 3: normal and restore it to twenty nineteen. Again, there are

1152
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:49,640
Speaker 3: very different interpretations of that, and that's why it's important.

1153
00:54:49,680 --> 00:54:51,040
Speaker 1: But that's why I think it matters.

1154
00:54:51,160 --> 00:54:54,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, And then just to go through some of

1155
00:54:54,200 --> 00:54:56,200
Speaker 2: some of the impacts here and some of the things

1156
00:54:56,239 --> 00:54:58,879
Speaker 2: that really cut negatively against them. Let's put this next

1157
00:54:58,920 --> 00:55:01,080
Speaker 2: piece up on the screen. It's impossible to keep up

1158
00:55:01,160 --> 00:55:02,960
Speaker 2: with like all the things that are impacted and all

1159
00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:04,400
Speaker 2: the things that are going on. So this is a

1160
00:55:04,400 --> 00:55:07,800
Speaker 2: bit of a sampling. But the CNN article I actually

1161
00:55:07,800 --> 00:55:10,640
Speaker 2: actually was really was really good and pointed out something

1162
00:55:10,640 --> 00:55:13,120
Speaker 2: that I hadn't thought about before. They say military families

1163
00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:16,480
Speaker 2: rocked by Trump's federal government cuts. We've talked here before

1164
00:55:16,600 --> 00:55:19,879
Speaker 2: about how much of the federal government is employees are

1165
00:55:20,160 --> 00:55:24,440
Speaker 2: retired military, and you know, so that's very significant. But

1166
00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:27,759
Speaker 2: this article looks specifically at there have been all kinds

1167
00:55:27,800 --> 00:55:30,719
Speaker 2: of federal government programs, including one that was championed by

1168
00:55:30,760 --> 00:55:35,520
Speaker 2: Trump in his first term, to higher military spouses and

1169
00:55:35,640 --> 00:55:39,160
Speaker 2: give them work and flexible work and often telework within

1170
00:55:39,320 --> 00:55:42,680
Speaker 2: the federal government. And you know, the reason is pretty

1171
00:55:42,680 --> 00:55:45,520
Speaker 2: obvious here. You've got this, you know, this group of

1172
00:55:45,600 --> 00:55:49,040
Speaker 2: military spouses who are oftentimes having to be moved around

1173
00:55:49,080 --> 00:55:52,240
Speaker 2: the country based on where their significant other is stationed

1174
00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:54,840
Speaker 2: at the time and what deployments they're dealing with. Also,

1175
00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:57,400
Speaker 2: if you know, if your significant other is deployed overseas,

1176
00:55:58,000 --> 00:56:00,120
Speaker 2: that's going to create childcare issues, et cetera, if you're

1177
00:56:00,120 --> 00:56:02,759
Speaker 2: having to commute a long way to your job. And

1178
00:56:02,880 --> 00:56:06,440
Speaker 2: so when the order came down of okay, everybody back

1179
00:56:06,480 --> 00:56:10,840
Speaker 2: to the office, initially military spouses were not excluded, so,

1180
00:56:11,239 --> 00:56:14,000
Speaker 2: you know, people for whom they'd been given an ability

1181
00:56:14,000 --> 00:56:15,600
Speaker 2: to be able to work these jobs and have that

1182
00:56:15,680 --> 00:56:17,520
Speaker 2: kind of flexibility, of being able to work from home

1183
00:56:17,920 --> 00:56:20,359
Speaker 2: and you know, be able to work long distances even

1184
00:56:20,400 --> 00:56:23,320
Speaker 2: when they get moved around, et cetera. They were not excluded.

1185
00:56:23,360 --> 00:56:25,160
Speaker 2: And then there were some memo that went out that

1186
00:56:25,160 --> 00:56:27,600
Speaker 2: it's like maybe you are excluded, and it's just been

1187
00:56:27,719 --> 00:56:30,960
Speaker 2: total chaos and really unclear. And the other piece with

1188
00:56:31,040 --> 00:56:34,480
Speaker 2: this is, you know, in terms of firing all of

1189
00:56:34,600 --> 00:56:38,720
Speaker 2: the employees that are on this probationary period, it's important

1190
00:56:38,760 --> 00:56:41,719
Speaker 2: to understand that that doesn't just apply to people who've

1191
00:56:41,760 --> 00:56:42,560
Speaker 2: been newly.

1192
00:56:42,360 --> 00:56:43,840
Speaker 4: Hired by the federal government.

1193
00:56:44,480 --> 00:56:49,080
Speaker 2: If you move positions in you know, between agencies, or

1194
00:56:49,120 --> 00:56:51,840
Speaker 2: even sometimes if you get a certain promotion, but certainly

1195
00:56:51,880 --> 00:56:54,320
Speaker 2: if you're you know, moving from Okay, he was stationed

1196
00:56:54,320 --> 00:56:56,800
Speaker 2: here and now he's stationed somewhere else, and I'm totally switching,

1197
00:56:56,840 --> 00:56:59,040
Speaker 2: you know, to work at a different agency that's close

1198
00:56:59,120 --> 00:57:01,200
Speaker 2: to where he lives now to where we live now,

1199
00:57:01,800 --> 00:57:04,880
Speaker 2: those people would be on probation. So that means that

1200
00:57:05,280 --> 00:57:08,920
Speaker 2: you would have a disproportionate impact on these military spouses

1201
00:57:08,960 --> 00:57:11,120
Speaker 2: that I think everybody finds pretty like, oh, it's a

1202
00:57:11,120 --> 00:57:13,560
Speaker 2: good thing for the federal government to These are people

1203
00:57:13,560 --> 00:57:15,400
Speaker 2: who are capable to have skills that are useful to

1204
00:57:15,440 --> 00:57:17,720
Speaker 2: the government. It's not like it's you know, they're not

1205
00:57:17,800 --> 00:57:22,000
Speaker 2: deserving of the positions, but they require some flexibility and

1206
00:57:22,080 --> 00:57:24,480
Speaker 2: they're more likely to be in this probationary period. So

1207
00:57:24,520 --> 00:57:28,720
Speaker 2: it's hit them in particular, really really hard. In addition,

1208
00:57:28,840 --> 00:57:30,360
Speaker 2: something we could put the next one up on the

1209
00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:33,800
Speaker 2: screen that Soccer and I were mentioning yesterday is you're

1210
00:57:33,800 --> 00:57:38,320
Speaker 2: already having big impacts at the national parks. So National

1211
00:57:38,360 --> 00:57:42,080
Speaker 2: Park Service was already pretty bare bones in terms of

1212
00:57:42,240 --> 00:57:45,440
Speaker 2: you know, they'd faced staffing cuts and also staffing freezes.

1213
00:57:46,320 --> 00:57:49,439
Speaker 2: So the workforce has declined by fifteen percent since twenty ten,

1214
00:57:49,520 --> 00:57:52,640
Speaker 2: but park visitation is way up. It's increased by sixteen percent.

1215
00:57:52,680 --> 00:57:54,080
Speaker 2: If any of you guys have been to these national

1216
00:57:54,120 --> 00:57:57,600
Speaker 2: parks in recent years, you've seen like they are quite busy.

1217
00:57:57,680 --> 00:58:01,040
Speaker 2: People really love and enjoy It's like an afford vacation.

1218
00:58:01,400 --> 00:58:04,760
Speaker 2: They're incredible, they're beautiful, it's a wonderful experience. And my greatest,

1219
00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:08,320
Speaker 2: you know, favorite memories are at some of the places

1220
00:58:08,320 --> 00:58:11,800
Speaker 2: in the National park system. And so you're having already

1221
00:58:12,400 --> 00:58:17,640
Speaker 2: massive lines. You've had reservations at Gettysburg National Military Park

1222
00:58:17,720 --> 00:58:20,520
Speaker 2: that were just blanket canceled because they weren't able to

1223
00:58:20,560 --> 00:58:25,160
Speaker 2: manage the reservation system. You had weights in order to

1224
00:58:25,800 --> 00:58:30,520
Speaker 2: get into the Grand Canyon National Park were like multiple

1225
00:58:30,520 --> 00:58:33,160
Speaker 2: hours long because some of the people who just you know,

1226
00:58:33,280 --> 00:58:35,600
Speaker 2: let people in and give them the map and take

1227
00:58:35,600 --> 00:58:38,200
Speaker 2: the money and whatever had been let go. So you're

1228
00:58:38,240 --> 00:58:42,120
Speaker 2: having significant impacts there already. And then the other piece

1229
00:58:42,280 --> 00:58:46,520
Speaker 2: is you've had a fair amount of what appears to

1230
00:58:46,560 --> 00:58:48,680
Speaker 2: be self dealing, although you could never say for sure,

1231
00:58:48,760 --> 00:58:52,160
Speaker 2: but certain certainly the appearance of self dealing coming from

1232
00:58:52,160 --> 00:58:53,720
Speaker 2: Elon as well put.

1233
00:58:53,480 --> 00:58:54,800
Speaker 4: Me five up on the screen.

1234
00:58:55,840 --> 00:58:58,680
Speaker 2: So they laid off a bunch of workers at the

1235
00:58:58,720 --> 00:59:03,560
Speaker 2: auto safety agency that oversees Tesla. They've you know, this

1236
00:59:03,680 --> 00:59:09,080
Speaker 2: agency had come like Elon had expressed his disgust at

1237
00:59:09,080 --> 00:59:12,320
Speaker 2: this agency previously prior to being the head or not

1238
00:59:12,440 --> 00:59:15,560
Speaker 2: the head of DOGE, according to who you believe he's

1239
00:59:15,680 --> 00:59:20,520
Speaker 2: They've mandated that Tesla and other automakers report crash data

1240
00:59:20,600 --> 00:59:25,360
Speaker 2: on vehicles, specifically like self driving technology equipped vehicles have

1241
00:59:25,440 --> 00:59:27,720
Speaker 2: to report this crash data. He didn't like that they've

1242
00:59:27,800 --> 00:59:31,880
Speaker 2: launched investigations into deadly crashes involving his company's cars. He

1243
00:59:31,920 --> 00:59:36,320
Speaker 2: didn't like that either you know, so again, can you

1244
00:59:36,360 --> 00:59:38,440
Speaker 2: say durre Okay, they got fired because elon wan of

1245
00:59:38,440 --> 00:59:40,040
Speaker 2: them fired and you can't say that, but it certainly

1246
00:59:40,080 --> 00:59:42,160
Speaker 2: has the appearance of self dealing and very similar with

1247
00:59:42,240 --> 00:59:44,400
Speaker 2: this next piece as well. It can put this up

1248
00:59:44,440 --> 00:59:48,120
Speaker 2: on the screen. So employees that had been reviewing Neuralink

1249
00:59:48,560 --> 00:59:51,040
Speaker 2: also were fired over the weekend as part of a

1250
00:59:51,080 --> 00:59:56,400
Speaker 2: broader purge, So twenty people in the FDA's Office of

1251
00:59:56,400 --> 00:59:59,720
Speaker 2: Neurological and Physical Medicine Devices, several of whom specifically worked

1252
00:59:59,760 --> 01:00:04,040
Speaker 2: on Link. According to two sources, they were all let go.

1253
01:00:04,640 --> 01:00:06,880
Speaker 2: Now after the fact, Shagger, some of these people they're

1254
01:00:06,920 --> 01:00:09,640
Speaker 2: like scrambling to bring back because they realized that we

1255
01:00:09,720 --> 01:00:11,880
Speaker 2: really need some of these people, so they're scrambling to

1256
01:00:11,880 --> 01:00:12,480
Speaker 2: bring them back.

1257
01:00:12,520 --> 01:00:14,160
Speaker 4: But to your point, I think.

1258
01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:16,760
Speaker 2: It's I think you're absolutely right about the more that

1259
01:00:16,800 --> 01:00:20,080
Speaker 2: he appears like the you know, evil, dreaded boss, I think.

1260
01:00:19,960 --> 01:00:20,720
Speaker 4: That's really bad.

1261
01:00:21,000 --> 01:00:24,080
Speaker 2: The more people see him less as the visionary and

1262
01:00:24,160 --> 01:00:25,000
Speaker 2: more as.

1263
01:00:24,840 --> 01:00:26,440
Speaker 4: The self interested, self.

1264
01:00:26,240 --> 01:00:29,160
Speaker 2: Dealing billionaire, the worse. And then the more that it

1265
01:00:29,240 --> 01:00:34,520
Speaker 2: impacts groups that are sympathetic and services that people actually value, the.

1266
01:00:34,360 --> 01:00:35,920
Speaker 4: More of a political problem. This is.

1267
01:00:35,920 --> 01:00:38,280
Speaker 3: That was my prediction is if you start to actually

1268
01:00:38,280 --> 01:00:41,000
Speaker 3: come after stuff that people use and or a beloved

1269
01:00:41,000 --> 01:00:44,800
Speaker 3: for example, national parks literally most beloved national programs in

1270
01:00:44,840 --> 01:00:45,760
Speaker 3: the country, and we.

1271
01:00:45,760 --> 01:00:48,080
Speaker 4: Should expand the national parks system.

1272
01:00:48,280 --> 01:00:51,000
Speaker 2: In sure, Yeah, because they are sort of overcrowded at

1273
01:00:51,000 --> 01:00:52,320
Speaker 2: those point because they're so popular.

1274
01:00:52,400 --> 01:00:52,919
Speaker 1: I know. Yeah.

1275
01:00:52,960 --> 01:00:55,280
Speaker 3: Actually, like I said, I went to Zion and during

1276
01:00:55,320 --> 01:00:57,640
Speaker 3: COVID and it was, oh my god. The reservation system

1277
01:00:57,680 --> 01:00:59,720
Speaker 3: was a disaster. So if anything, you should make it better. Yeah,

1278
01:00:59,760 --> 01:01:01,840
Speaker 3: it easier. One of the reasons that I love and

1279
01:01:01,880 --> 01:01:03,880
Speaker 3: I support them is that it's literally free, or as

1280
01:01:03,960 --> 01:01:05,200
Speaker 3: close to free as you can get. A lot of

1281
01:01:05,240 --> 01:01:07,520
Speaker 3: the accommodations around the area are actually very cheap. It's

1282
01:01:07,840 --> 01:01:10,520
Speaker 3: very easy to take a very cheap vacation there, especially

1283
01:01:10,560 --> 01:01:12,800
Speaker 3: if you're nearby. You see it all the time. If

1284
01:01:12,840 --> 01:01:14,800
Speaker 3: you're into camping or it's you know, you can use

1285
01:01:14,800 --> 01:01:17,400
Speaker 3: the reservation. The park people will help you. They have

1286
01:01:17,440 --> 01:01:18,080
Speaker 3: it all set up.

1287
01:01:18,080 --> 01:01:20,680
Speaker 1: They really do. It's awesome in terms of the government

1288
01:01:21,120 --> 01:01:21,840
Speaker 1: support for it.

1289
01:01:21,960 --> 01:01:24,720
Speaker 3: That is an example again of people who are like, hey,

1290
01:01:24,800 --> 01:01:27,479
Speaker 3: hold on a second here. I also think that where

1291
01:01:27,520 --> 01:01:30,280
Speaker 3: it comes down to not only with the military strategy,

1292
01:01:30,320 --> 01:01:33,600
Speaker 3: but the slap shot nature of it, the more again,

1293
01:01:34,120 --> 01:01:36,720
Speaker 3: people are fine with the plan. I really believe that,

1294
01:01:36,800 --> 01:01:39,240
Speaker 3: especially Republicans. Most Republicans hate the government. They hate they

1295
01:01:39,280 --> 01:01:41,400
Speaker 3: want to see it, gut it and all that, but

1296
01:01:42,160 --> 01:01:44,960
Speaker 3: they want to see it done in such a way.

1297
01:01:45,320 --> 01:01:48,479
Speaker 3: Not necessarily it doesn't impact them, but it's for a goal.

1298
01:01:48,520 --> 01:01:50,520
Speaker 3: So if it's just about DEI, it's like, that's actually

1299
01:01:50,520 --> 01:01:52,840
Speaker 3: not that difficult. You can pretty much even with the

1300
01:01:52,840 --> 01:01:56,800
Speaker 3: widest DEI definition, you could identify and publish all of

1301
01:01:56,800 --> 01:01:59,120
Speaker 3: the programs that have that, and you could ask.

1302
01:01:59,080 --> 01:02:01,760
Speaker 1: Them and or you could fire the employees involved.

1303
01:02:01,800 --> 01:02:04,200
Speaker 3: The problem with the ten percent layoff or with any

1304
01:02:04,200 --> 01:02:06,600
Speaker 3: of that and then bringing people back is it just

1305
01:02:06,840 --> 01:02:09,520
Speaker 3: feels as if it's doing it for the sake of it,

1306
01:02:09,560 --> 01:02:12,360
Speaker 3: which is fine if you're at Twitter, and honestly, it

1307
01:02:12,360 --> 01:02:14,960
Speaker 3: may be fine in the long run, right That's it

1308
01:02:15,000 --> 01:02:17,200
Speaker 3: really could be. It could be one where they all

1309
01:02:17,280 --> 01:02:19,720
Speaker 3: leave and we don't even notice, which is Elon's kind

1310
01:02:19,760 --> 01:02:22,439
Speaker 3: of theory of the case. I don't really think that's

1311
01:02:22,480 --> 01:02:26,280
Speaker 3: true in democratic institutions, but I could be completely wrong.

1312
01:02:26,560 --> 01:02:30,520
Speaker 3: And that's where I currently see, especially the pushback for

1313
01:02:31,480 --> 01:02:33,440
Speaker 3: families because I keep thinking about the statistic. If four

1314
01:02:33,480 --> 01:02:35,840
Speaker 3: million people work for the government, that means that there

1315
01:02:35,840 --> 01:02:38,680
Speaker 3: are eight to ten million people out there who know

1316
01:02:38,800 --> 01:02:42,000
Speaker 3: somebody or are related to somebody, who are directly related

1317
01:02:42,000 --> 01:02:43,840
Speaker 3: and are married to that person, not to mention their

1318
01:02:43,960 --> 01:02:46,520
Speaker 3: kids if they're older, or their cousin. I mean, we

1319
01:02:46,520 --> 01:02:48,760
Speaker 3: could do the tree out and everybody's a couple of

1320
01:02:48,840 --> 01:02:52,480
Speaker 3: degrees removed from somebody who directly works with us. Here

1321
01:02:52,520 --> 01:02:55,760
Speaker 3: in Washington, I know dozens of people who are affected.

1322
01:02:55,760 --> 01:02:58,080
Speaker 1: Also, my commute's gotten worse. Thank you Elon for calling

1323
01:02:58,160 --> 01:02:59,880
Speaker 1: off back end. It's a painting.

1324
01:03:01,080 --> 01:03:04,240
Speaker 3: And that's another one where you are we really like,

1325
01:03:04,280 --> 01:03:06,080
Speaker 3: what is the metric? Are we asking people to come

1326
01:03:06,120 --> 01:03:08,880
Speaker 3: into work? I think that's fine, But to what end

1327
01:03:08,960 --> 01:03:10,439
Speaker 3: is it just to clock in and to clock out?

1328
01:03:10,480 --> 01:03:14,280
Speaker 3: Like what is the theory of what is all happening here?

1329
01:03:14,280 --> 01:03:16,000
Speaker 3: And you know, the government's not a startup. I've always

1330
01:03:16,000 --> 01:03:18,560
Speaker 3: said that, And this is the problem with treating it

1331
01:03:18,600 --> 01:03:21,560
Speaker 3: as such. It's a literal democratic institution. Sometimes things are

1332
01:03:21,600 --> 01:03:24,760
Speaker 3: done stupidly and inefficiently, but in a sense that's only

1333
01:03:24,760 --> 01:03:27,400
Speaker 3: because people like it that way, or because congressmen or

1334
01:03:27,400 --> 01:03:31,320
Speaker 3: senators like it that way, and many constituents do as well,

1335
01:03:31,360 --> 01:03:34,800
Speaker 3: So it's a very complicated dance that I don't think

1336
01:03:34,800 --> 01:03:39,000
Speaker 3: that currently they are winning, and Trump seems enthralled by

1337
01:03:39,000 --> 01:03:41,600
Speaker 3: the whole thing. I think Trump and this is where

1338
01:03:41,640 --> 01:03:43,400
Speaker 3: I need to check my own bias, and I always

1339
01:03:43,400 --> 01:03:45,320
Speaker 3: say this, I think it would be a little too

1340
01:03:45,400 --> 01:03:48,440
Speaker 3: cute by half to have some great liberal backlash against

1341
01:03:48,440 --> 01:03:51,480
Speaker 3: Elon Endoge. It seems just a little too on the

1342
01:03:51,520 --> 01:03:54,120
Speaker 3: nose for what the media wants and what the liberals want,

1343
01:03:54,320 --> 01:03:56,640
Speaker 3: which by and large their political theories have been wrong

1344
01:03:56,680 --> 01:03:59,600
Speaker 3: over the last four years outside of abortion. So I

1345
01:03:59,800 --> 01:04:01,720
Speaker 3: just don't know. Maybe he's correct. I mean, he's a

1346
01:04:01,800 --> 01:04:04,480
Speaker 3: very smart person. For him, the media and the liberals

1347
01:04:04,480 --> 01:04:06,840
Speaker 3: are against it, so he continues to fight. He could

1348
01:04:06,880 --> 01:04:09,360
Speaker 3: still have millions of people who rally not to him

1349
01:04:09,360 --> 01:04:11,160
Speaker 3: per se, but to the Republicans who defend it.

1350
01:04:11,400 --> 01:04:12,240
Speaker 4: I mean, I could.

1351
01:04:12,280 --> 01:04:15,200
Speaker 2: There definitely is a massive liberal backlash, that much I

1352
01:04:15,240 --> 01:04:16,920
Speaker 2: can tell. I mean, I think that it's showing up

1353
01:04:16,960 --> 01:04:20,160
Speaker 2: at town halls in every state that everywhere they're having

1354
01:04:20,160 --> 01:04:22,959
Speaker 2: town halls, whether it's a Democrat or Republican who's having them,

1355
01:04:23,120 --> 01:04:26,320
Speaker 2: people are showing up en mass and so there's no

1356
01:04:26,360 --> 01:04:28,880
Speaker 2: doubt about that. And certainly in a midterm election when

1357
01:04:28,920 --> 01:04:31,560
Speaker 2: that enthusiasm is what counts, I think that's going to

1358
01:04:31,600 --> 01:04:36,200
Speaker 2: be really really determinative and important. So you know, I

1359
01:04:36,240 --> 01:04:39,400
Speaker 2: do think that there will be a massive electoral backlash

1360
01:04:39,440 --> 01:04:41,720
Speaker 2: to all of this, But you know, we'll see how Lauren,

1361
01:04:41,840 --> 01:04:45,640
Speaker 2: there's a long time between now and then, etc. But yeah,

1362
01:04:45,760 --> 01:04:50,160
Speaker 2: you've got the evil boss piece, You've got the incompetent piece.

1363
01:04:50,400 --> 01:04:52,200
Speaker 2: You know, it's very hard to argue that any of

1364
01:04:52,200 --> 01:04:55,280
Speaker 2: this is being done based on like merit when it's

1365
01:04:55,320 --> 01:05:00,560
Speaker 2: just these very blanket across the board not thought having

1366
01:05:00,560 --> 01:05:02,640
Speaker 2: to scramble like, oh shit, we fired the dude who

1367
01:05:02,720 --> 01:05:06,280
Speaker 2: like keeps our nuclear energy stay, like, we better get

1368
01:05:06,280 --> 01:05:08,840
Speaker 2: that guy back, And oh no, we fired some people

1369
01:05:08,880 --> 01:05:10,640
Speaker 2: at the FDA that were like keep a track of

1370
01:05:10,640 --> 01:05:12,680
Speaker 2: bird flu. That seems kind of important. We better get

1371
01:05:12,720 --> 01:05:15,800
Speaker 2: those people back as well. And that's where your point

1372
01:05:15,880 --> 01:05:19,960
Speaker 2: about the government not being a business is a really

1373
01:05:20,000 --> 01:05:23,760
Speaker 2: really important one for people to understand, because government is

1374
01:05:23,800 --> 01:05:26,800
Speaker 2: not supposed to be, like, its main goal isn't actually

1375
01:05:26,880 --> 01:05:29,000
Speaker 2: to be quote unquote efficient. And I'll give you a

1376
01:05:29,000 --> 01:05:33,840
Speaker 2: perfect example. Air traffic controllers, right businesses take all kinds

1377
01:05:33,880 --> 01:05:36,600
Speaker 2: of risks, especially businesses run by Elon Musk, take all

1378
01:05:36,680 --> 01:05:40,760
Speaker 2: kinds of risks, including safety risks, betting that the fine

1379
01:05:40,880 --> 01:05:44,280
Speaker 2: or the consequences will be less than the fallout from

1380
01:05:44,320 --> 01:05:48,520
Speaker 2: cutting those corners and taking those risks. But as a society,

1381
01:05:48,680 --> 01:05:50,600
Speaker 2: we want to make sure that the planes don't run

1382
01:05:50,600 --> 01:05:53,840
Speaker 2: into each other. So you don't want to just slapshot

1383
01:05:54,080 --> 01:05:56,720
Speaker 2: fire a bunch of air traffic controllers and make the

1384
01:05:56,760 --> 01:06:00,480
Speaker 2: thing more dangerous, even if that did mean it was

1385
01:06:00,520 --> 01:06:03,640
Speaker 2: quote unquote more efficient. I also got news for you,

1386
01:06:03,680 --> 01:06:06,640
Speaker 2: Like the federal the amount that we pay to employ

1387
01:06:06,720 --> 01:06:09,080
Speaker 2: the federal garment workforce is also not that large a

1388
01:06:09,120 --> 01:06:11,880
Speaker 2: part of the budget either. So even if you slashed

1389
01:06:11,960 --> 01:06:16,360
Speaker 2: like a preposterous amount of this workforce, you're doing very

1390
01:06:16,360 --> 01:06:19,000
Speaker 2: little in terms of actual cost cutting. And then's the

1391
01:06:19,040 --> 01:06:21,880
Speaker 2: other piece is like when you zoom out even from

1392
01:06:22,080 --> 01:06:24,800
Speaker 2: just this, okay, what DOGE is up to and they're

1393
01:06:24,840 --> 01:06:27,800
Speaker 2: like bullshit, pretending like they found this or that fraudulent program,

1394
01:06:27,800 --> 01:06:31,560
Speaker 2: which they have not actually identified any fraunt thus far whatsoever.

1395
01:06:32,280 --> 01:06:35,160
Speaker 2: And you consider the broader agenda, which is like, okay, well,

1396
01:06:35,200 --> 01:06:37,200
Speaker 2: we're trying to cut spending so we can do what

1397
01:06:37,560 --> 01:06:40,000
Speaker 2: give a giant tax cut to people like Elon Musk

1398
01:06:40,000 --> 01:06:43,960
Speaker 2: who already pay very little in taxes. Then the agenda

1399
01:06:44,080 --> 01:06:48,080
Speaker 2: just completely departs from what most Americans want. And Sober's

1400
01:06:48,080 --> 01:06:50,720
Speaker 2: are absolutely right that most people if you ask them like, oh,

1401
01:06:50,760 --> 01:06:51,880
Speaker 2: should the government be cut?

1402
01:06:51,960 --> 01:06:53,680
Speaker 4: Should it be made more efficient? Some of the fat

1403
01:06:53,720 --> 01:06:53,960
Speaker 4: be cut?

1404
01:06:54,080 --> 01:06:56,560
Speaker 2: And they'd be like, yes, absolutely, But the way you

1405
01:06:56,600 --> 01:06:59,480
Speaker 2: do that matters, and the impact on people's lives matter.

1406
01:06:59,720 --> 01:07:03,000
Speaker 2: And and I don't think that this is landing well

1407
01:07:03,000 --> 01:07:04,400
Speaker 2: with people based on what we're seeing.

1408
01:07:04,480 --> 01:07:07,560
Speaker 3: It's a good politically, it is a good test for

1409
01:07:07,840 --> 01:07:10,680
Speaker 3: trump theory of politics. Trump's theory of politics is if

1410
01:07:10,720 --> 01:07:12,920
Speaker 3: that the media and the liberals are against it, then

1411
01:07:12,920 --> 01:07:14,240
Speaker 3: he's going to fight against it.

1412
01:07:14,280 --> 01:07:16,360
Speaker 1: And that has proven very well for him.

1413
01:07:16,440 --> 01:07:20,560
Speaker 3: It has worked dramatically well actually politically for him specifically

1414
01:07:20,560 --> 01:07:22,720
Speaker 3: not necessarily the Republican Party.

1415
01:07:22,800 --> 01:07:25,320
Speaker 1: So how will he continue to.

1416
01:07:25,280 --> 01:07:29,760
Speaker 3: Fare not only his grip on the party, his ability

1417
01:07:30,120 --> 01:07:32,560
Speaker 3: to then perhaps transfer some of that in the midterms

1418
01:07:32,720 --> 01:07:36,600
Speaker 3: or in the future election. Because right now, if you

1419
01:07:36,640 --> 01:07:38,720
Speaker 3: were to believe a traditional media narrative, you're like, oh,

1420
01:07:38,720 --> 01:07:40,640
Speaker 3: it's going to be a blowout. But I just have

1421
01:07:40,720 --> 01:07:43,640
Speaker 3: a sneaking suspicion that the rules might have changed, only

1422
01:07:43,640 --> 01:07:46,680
Speaker 3: in the sense that because the mainstream media no longer

1423
01:07:46,800 --> 01:07:49,600
Speaker 3: has the same grip on the American culture for its

1424
01:07:49,600 --> 01:07:52,520
Speaker 3: ability to set narratives, I genuinely question how much of

1425
01:07:52,560 --> 01:07:57,840
Speaker 3: this is even penetrating, because even when the lib narratives

1426
01:07:57,920 --> 01:08:01,920
Speaker 3: penetrated during the election didn't hit to the electorate in

1427
01:08:02,000 --> 01:08:05,280
Speaker 3: the same way. Nice the electorate is huge, right, nobody

1428
01:08:05,280 --> 01:08:08,120
Speaker 3: can really know. But a lot of the memes that

1429
01:08:08,160 --> 01:08:10,880
Speaker 3: people tried to make that were supposed to be offensive,

1430
01:08:10,960 --> 01:08:13,440
Speaker 3: turn people off or whatever in the traditional rules of politics,

1431
01:08:13,640 --> 01:08:14,360
Speaker 3: they didn't work.

1432
01:08:14,680 --> 01:08:16,719
Speaker 2: That's only the case when Trump is on the ballot.

1433
01:08:17,120 --> 01:08:18,960
Speaker 2: And Trump is not really supposed to be on the

1434
01:08:19,000 --> 01:08:19,639
Speaker 2: ballot again.

1435
01:08:20,680 --> 01:08:22,400
Speaker 1: He has other ideas, want.

1436
01:08:22,520 --> 01:08:25,679
Speaker 2: He has other ideas, but you know, as of today,

1437
01:08:26,040 --> 01:08:29,280
Speaker 2: based on the Constitution, he's not supposed to run again.

1438
01:08:29,360 --> 01:08:31,679
Speaker 2: He's also getting you know, he is getting old too,

1439
01:08:31,840 --> 01:08:35,240
Speaker 2: But you know, so he's never been able to translate

1440
01:08:35,360 --> 01:08:38,120
Speaker 2: his particular political guests in this way. He's very much

1441
01:08:38,160 --> 01:08:44,040
Speaker 2: like Obama, his particular political gifts to midterm elections, special elections,

1442
01:08:44,200 --> 01:08:47,120
Speaker 2: or really anyone else. So yeah, when he's on the ballot,

1443
01:08:47,439 --> 01:08:50,880
Speaker 2: The polls are understate his support. You know, people want

1444
01:08:50,920 --> 01:08:53,600
Speaker 2: to give him a chance time and time again. He

1445
01:08:53,680 --> 01:08:57,040
Speaker 2: comes extraordinarily close in twenty twenty, even with the disastrous

1446
01:08:57,080 --> 01:09:01,240
Speaker 2: state of the country under his leadership. He obviously wins

1447
01:09:01,240 --> 01:09:03,360
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty four and is able to secure a

1448
01:09:03,400 --> 01:09:07,200
Speaker 2: popular vote victory, which is extraordinary. But the midterms before

1449
01:09:07,240 --> 01:09:09,960
Speaker 2: that were a disaster for Republicans, and the twenty eighteen

1450
01:09:10,000 --> 01:09:14,080
Speaker 2: midterms were disaster for Republicans as well. So you know,

1451
01:09:14,280 --> 01:09:18,200
Speaker 2: I've never seen him able to translate his political gifts

1452
01:09:18,240 --> 01:09:23,160
Speaker 2: and talents to anyone else, And you know, I don't

1453
01:09:23,160 --> 01:09:26,320
Speaker 2: see why that would change when people are already kind

1454
01:09:26,360 --> 01:09:29,040
Speaker 2: of over the honeymoon period, already turning certainly on Elon,

1455
01:09:29,080 --> 01:09:31,160
Speaker 2: but also his numbers are going down, and people aren't

1456
01:09:31,160 --> 01:09:32,800
Speaker 2: happy with the state of the economy either,