1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:02,400 Speaker 1: Hey, please take a second and leave us a review 2 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:06,279 Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to the podcast. 3 00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:12,720 Speaker 1: Thanks a lot. Hey, welcome to Science Stuff production of iHeartRadio. 4 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:16,880 Speaker 1: I'm horhitch Ham, and today we're doing the impossible. We 5 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 1: are going to basically teleport through walls, and we're going 6 00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:25,799 Speaker 1: to do this using something called quantum tunneling, which is 7 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 1: a phenomenon that's being used to make quantum computers a reality. 8 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 1: Today we're going to talk to a couple of physicists 9 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:34,839 Speaker 1: about this, including one of the people who want the 10 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 1: Nobel Price this year for this technology. I'm going to 11 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:40,120 Speaker 1: ask him what it was like to win and what 12 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 1: advice he has for future scientists to get ready to 13 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:47,280 Speaker 1: tunnel to the quantum world. As we answer the question 14 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 1: what is quantum tunneling? Hey, everyone, Today we're taking another 15 00:00:56,160 --> 00:01:00,160 Speaker 1: trip to the quantum world. We've talked before about what 16 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 1: a quantum computer is and how it might basically make 17 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:07,920 Speaker 1: passwords and things like cryptocurrency totally useless. Today we are 18 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:11,440 Speaker 1: covering how those quantum computers are being made, and most 19 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:14,280 Speaker 1: of the big ones, like the ones at Google and Amazon, 20 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:19,240 Speaker 1: use something called macroscopic quantum tunneling. So we're going to 21 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:21,960 Speaker 1: explore what that is. And the cool thing is that, 22 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:25,039 Speaker 1: thanks to a collaboration with Physics magazine, we're going to 23 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:27,120 Speaker 1: talk to one of the people who won the Nobel 24 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 1: Prize for it this year. But before we do that, 25 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:33,319 Speaker 1: I reached out to doctor Shohini Ghosch, a professor of 26 00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:36,840 Speaker 1: physics and computer science at Wilfred Laurier University and the 27 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:41,480 Speaker 1: chief Technology officer at the Quantum Algorithms Institute in Canada. 28 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:44,280 Speaker 1: I asked her to help us explain what quantum and 29 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:49,440 Speaker 1: quantum tunneling are. Well, thank you, doctor Ghosh for talking 30 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:49,680 Speaker 1: with me. 31 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 2: I'm glad too, thank you for inviting me. 32 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 1: So maybe for those of us who are not familiar, 33 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 1: how do you describe what quantum is? 34 00:01:57,240 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, so, quantum mechanics is actually the theory that underpins 35 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 2: the behavior of fundamental particles and light in the universe. So, 36 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:09,720 Speaker 2: for example, if you look at the periodic table, there's 37 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 2: a whole bunch of elements, but all of those items 38 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:16,240 Speaker 2: are also built up of fundamental particles like electrons. And 39 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 2: if you look at the nucleus, there are particles within 40 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 2: the nucleus too. Every single such microscopic particle in the 41 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:25,680 Speaker 2: universe we can actually describe using this amazing theory called 42 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 2: quantum mechanics, and we can describe even particles of light, 43 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 2: which we call photons. So essentially this is our description 44 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:34,680 Speaker 2: of all the matter and energy in the universe. 45 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 1: It's no big deal, right, That's a small theory. I 46 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 1: guess you could say, oh, yeah, yeah. 47 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 2: The other important thing I'd wanted to say about quantum 48 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:45,120 Speaker 2: mechanics is that we feel like this might be something 49 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 2: not connected to our everyday lives. But think about one 50 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:51,920 Speaker 2: of those very very important elements in that periodic table, 51 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:56,760 Speaker 2: which is silicon. Understanding silicon is essentially why we now 52 00:02:56,800 --> 00:03:01,359 Speaker 2: have Silicon Valley, semiconductor industry, all of our electronics, all 53 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 2: the devices we use every day. So it's actually part 54 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:07,600 Speaker 2: of our lives. And we've been involved in this amazing 55 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:11,119 Speaker 2: technology revolution which started back one hundred years ago when 56 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 2: this theory was first developed. 57 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:16,960 Speaker 1: Amazing and phones are definitely a big part of my 58 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 1: teenagers's lives. Maybe sometimes too. 59 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:23,040 Speaker 2: Much, that's true, There could be too much quantum mechanics 60 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 2: in some people's lives. 61 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:29,799 Speaker 1: Okay, So things at the level of super small particles 62 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 1: act very differently from what we experience in our everyday lives. 63 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 1: They have strange properties that you might have heard of before, 64 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:40,120 Speaker 1: like the idea that you can never tell exactly where 65 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 1: they are and where they're going. That's called the Heisenberg 66 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 1: uncertainty principle. Or that they have a probability of being 67 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 1: in several places at the same time. That's called superposition. 68 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 1: And there's something called entanglement, which is the idea that 69 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 1: these weird quantum properties can spread out when you mix 70 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 1: different quantum things together. Well, a result of some of 71 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 1: these properties is something called quantum tunneling. 72 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:09,640 Speaker 2: So quantum tunneling is a very very fundamental property that's 73 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 2: part of this model, and what it is is it 74 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 2: describes the behavior of these quantum particles. It's kind of 75 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 2: like walking through walls. I don't advise anybody to try 76 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 2: it in our real world, but yes, electrons and other 77 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 2: quantum particles can do it, and that's quantum tunneling. 78 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:29,160 Speaker 1: Okay, here's how doctor Goes explains what quantum tunneling is. 79 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:32,159 Speaker 1: Let's say you're standing in front of a mountain. Now 80 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 1: you are where you are, but if you were a 81 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:38,480 Speaker 1: quantum particle, where you're going to be is kind of fuzzy. 82 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 1: There's a probability that you're going to be one meter 83 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:44,279 Speaker 1: ahead of you, and another probability that you're going to 84 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:48,039 Speaker 1: be two meters ahead or three meters behind. That cloud 85 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:52,120 Speaker 1: of possibilities is called a wave function. You can think 86 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:54,479 Speaker 1: of it as kind of a fog or a cloud 87 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:57,479 Speaker 1: that hovers around you that tells you where you might 88 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 1: be next. Well, mathematically, part of that cloud could be 89 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:04,680 Speaker 1: on the other side of that mountain in front of you. 90 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:07,599 Speaker 1: Your wave function can sort of leak to the other side, 91 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 1: and so there's a wisp of a possibility that's where 92 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:13,040 Speaker 1: you're going to be next. So if you stand in 93 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 1: front of that mountain long enough or enough times, you 94 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:20,359 Speaker 1: might suddenly find yourself appearing on the other side without 95 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:22,159 Speaker 1: having to climb the mountain. 96 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:26,599 Speaker 2: If that electron doesn't have that energy, then it shouldn't 97 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:28,280 Speaker 2: be able to climb to the top of the mountain, 98 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:31,120 Speaker 2: and yet it can make it to the other side. 99 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 2: So this very surprising way to somehow be able to 100 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 2: not have the energy and still be able to walk 101 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 2: through the mountain because there's no way it can climb 102 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:42,559 Speaker 2: to the top since it doesn't have the energy. That's 103 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:45,160 Speaker 2: what quantum tunneling is. It's like if we walk through 104 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 2: the mountain. 105 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 1: Or it's like we created a tunnel through the mountain 106 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 1: that's not really there. It's a quantum tunnel exactly. 107 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:54,560 Speaker 2: There's actually no probability of being inside the mountain. 108 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:58,760 Speaker 1: Okay, this is the strange part. It's not like you 109 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:02,360 Speaker 1: or the particle go through the mountain, because if you do, 110 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:05,159 Speaker 1: that would mean you're inside the mountain at some point. 111 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:09,240 Speaker 1: It really is like you just appear on the other side. 112 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 2: What's really weird about this quantum tunnel is that if 113 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:16,720 Speaker 2: you ever try to observe this particle tunneling through this mountain, 114 00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 2: you'll never find it actually ever spending any time inside 115 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 2: the mountains. It's either on one side or the other, 116 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 2: but it's never actually in the mountain. So that's what 117 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:31,039 Speaker 2: makes it even weirder. Okay, every time you think quantum 118 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 2: is not weird, it gets even weirder. 119 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 1: Okay, you might be wondering at this point, like I was, 120 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 1: how is this possible? How can something just be on 121 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 1: one side of the mountain in one moment and then 122 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:45,280 Speaker 1: be on the other side of the mountain in the 123 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:49,839 Speaker 1: next moment. That seems impossible. Well, interestingly, that's something not 124 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:55,039 Speaker 1: even people who study quantum physics all their lives can't explain. Well, 125 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:57,359 Speaker 1: why do I have a probability of being on the 126 00:06:57,400 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 1: other side of the mountain If it's impossible. 127 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 2: Well, I'm not saying is the next instance. It could 128 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 2: take some time before you find the particle on the 129 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:06,520 Speaker 2: other side, but what it's doing during that time is 130 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 2: not to dwell inside the mountain. When you say, why 131 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 2: does it do it? 132 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 1: That is the. 133 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:15,240 Speaker 2: Great mystery of quantum mechanics. Our theory tells us that 134 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:19,360 Speaker 2: this is how the description when we go and do experiments, 135 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 2: so when we go and measure it, we can confirm 136 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 2: whether the theory is correct or not. So in a way, 137 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 2: the universe is showing us that this is how it works. 138 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 2: In this universe, these kinds of robberties are possible and 139 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 2: we can observe it. And if all this sounds very confusing, 140 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 2: it's okay because I think quantum scientists and physicists since 141 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:42,360 Speaker 2: the early nineteen hundreds, this is something physicists have also 142 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 2: debated about. Is this particle actually just disappearing and appearing 143 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 2: on two sides of a barrier? How come it doesn't 144 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 2: spend time in the barrier. These are still things that 145 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 2: we are grappling with. 146 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:56,680 Speaker 1: So not even Einstein figured out what it all means. 147 00:07:56,920 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 2: No, I think Einstein was always deeply disturbed the implications 148 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 2: of this serial. 149 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 1: He wasn't able to quantum tunnel out of No, that's 150 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:06,200 Speaker 1: good work. 151 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 2: Yes, he was unable to. 152 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 1: Okay, two recap. This is what quantum tunneling is. It's 153 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:17,120 Speaker 1: a phenomenon that you see quantum particles like electrons or protons, 154 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 1: where if you have a particle that's up against a 155 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 1: wall or some kind of energy barrier, that particle can 156 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 1: sort of tunnel through that wall and appear on the 157 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 1: other side if there is a mathematical probability that it 158 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:33,959 Speaker 1: can do that. Even though it may seem physically impossible, 159 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:37,440 Speaker 1: physicists aren't quite sure how it happens, but it does, 160 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 1: and it's all around us. It's what makes scanning tunneling 161 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:45,840 Speaker 1: microscopes work. And flash memory, which basically every phone and 162 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 1: computer in the world uses. Flash memory works by pushing 163 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 1: electrons to quantum tunnel in and out of little electronic 164 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:58,480 Speaker 1: cages that are completely insulated. When an electron is inside 165 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:01,680 Speaker 1: the cage, it's storing in of one and it stays 166 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:05,400 Speaker 1: there until you quantum tunnel it out. The device you're 167 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 1: using right now most likely uses quantum tunneling to store 168 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 1: the audio file you're listening to right now. And all 169 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 1: of this raises two questions. One, if quantum particles can 170 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 1: tunnel through walls and barriers, could bigger objects do it too? 171 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 1: And two, if bigger things can do this tunneling, what 172 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 1: can you do with them? Well, as it turns out, 173 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 1: this year's Nobel Prize for Physics was awarded to three 174 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 1: scientists who prove that this is possible and who are 175 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:38,320 Speaker 1: using it to make quantum computers. So when we come back, 176 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:40,080 Speaker 1: we're going to talk to one of the winners to 177 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:42,560 Speaker 1: hear how they did it, and I'm going to ask 178 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 1: them what's it like to win a Nobel prize. Stay 179 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:47,680 Speaker 1: with us, we'll be right back. 180 00:09:59,200 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 3: Welcome back. 181 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:04,400 Speaker 1: We're talking about quantum tunneling, which is something that happens 182 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:08,120 Speaker 1: in the quantum world. Small particles like electrons can sort 183 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 1: of tunnel through walls and appear on the other side 184 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 1: of them, almost by magic. And as I mentioned, it's 185 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 1: what's used in scanning tunneling microscopes to take pictures of 186 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:20,640 Speaker 1: extremely small things, and it's how flash memory in your 187 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:25,480 Speaker 1: phone and computers work now. For a long time, people 188 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:28,840 Speaker 1: thought that this strange behavior could only happen for small 189 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:32,679 Speaker 1: particles like single electrons or protons, and that once you 190 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:36,040 Speaker 1: got to bigger things, things made of millions or billions 191 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:40,719 Speaker 1: of particles, this behavior couldn't happen because of something called decoherence, 192 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:45,200 Speaker 1: which basically means the quantum information is lost. But in 193 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty four, three physicists at the University of California 194 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:53,000 Speaker 1: at Berkeley showed that this assumption was wrong, and for 195 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:56,199 Speaker 1: that this year they got the Nobel Prize in Physics. 196 00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:59,319 Speaker 1: To tell us what happened, here's doctor John Martinez, one 197 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 1: of the three Pece people who won the price. Well, 198 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 1: thank you so much, doctor Martinez for joining us. It's 199 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:08,320 Speaker 1: such a pleasure and an honor to be speaking with you. 200 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:09,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you. 201 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:11,520 Speaker 1: Could you tell us just generally who you are and 202 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:12,040 Speaker 1: what do you do? 203 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 3: Well, okay, John Martinez. I've been a physicist researching quantum 204 00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 3: devices quantum computing for many decades. Right now, I was 205 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 3: a professor at UC Santa Barbara. I've retired recently. I 206 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:31,320 Speaker 3: also worked for the Google Quantum AI team until about 207 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 3: twenty twenty and for a couple of years. Now I've 208 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:37,679 Speaker 3: started my own company called Collab, and I'm the chief 209 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:41,559 Speaker 3: technology officer and we're just basically trying to build a 210 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 3: useful quantum computer. 211 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:44,280 Speaker 1: It sounds like you're very busy. 212 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:48,800 Speaker 3: Ah, yes, I'm super busy right now after the Nobel Prize. 213 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 3: But it's been nice, it's been wonderful. I can't complain. 214 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:55,560 Speaker 1: What was it like to receive the announcement that you 215 00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:56,600 Speaker 1: had won the prize? 216 00:11:56,679 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 3: Well, I wasn't expecting it at all, and this I 217 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 3: was just so busy. I knew something was coming up, 218 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:06,080 Speaker 3: but I then thought about the date or anything. And 219 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:09,480 Speaker 3: actually my wife found out about it through email. She 220 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 3: was up late and then she let me sleep in 221 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:16,720 Speaker 3: till five thirty in the morning, which I love my wife. 222 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 3: She knows exactly what I need. I need my sleep. Yeah, 223 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 3: And then she just woke me up in bed and said, hey, 224 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:25,040 Speaker 3: there's some reporters outside you want to talk to you. 225 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 3: And it was like, what, okay, you know, so I 226 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:31,559 Speaker 3: looked on I opened my computer and you know, lo 227 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:35,679 Speaker 3: and behold with John Clark and Michelle Deverey, and there 228 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:38,520 Speaker 3: was the announcement with me, So that was just a 229 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:41,440 Speaker 3: great honor. And it just took a kind of stunned 230 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:44,839 Speaker 3: for a few minutes and kind of got ready and 231 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:48,040 Speaker 3: I talked to some reporters. He showed up early in 232 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:51,440 Speaker 3: the morning to film me and get my immediate reaction 233 00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 3: and the like. But yeah, it's you do science because 234 00:12:56,040 --> 00:13:00,160 Speaker 3: it's great, it's interesting. There's an artistic element to it. 235 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 3: There's a communication element, answering questions all that's really fun. 236 00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 3: But you know, getting this award is an honor, not 237 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 3: not something one should expect. Okay, that's the best way 238 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:12,679 Speaker 3: to approach it. 239 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:15,439 Speaker 1: Amazing live go back to you when you first did 240 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:18,679 Speaker 1: the experiment, right, and I believe at the time quantum 241 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:23,200 Speaker 1: tunneling had been proven for small particles electrons, that was 242 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:25,920 Speaker 1: well known. To take us back to before you did 243 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 1: the experiment, somebody had proposed that it might be possible 244 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:33,640 Speaker 1: to prove quantum properties in more complicated systems, but it 245 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 1: was a big unknown. What were you thinking at the 246 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:36,880 Speaker 1: time you and your colleagues. 247 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:41,000 Speaker 3: First of all, I decided to join John Clark's group 248 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 3: as a graduate student. That was in nineteen eighty because 249 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:49,080 Speaker 3: he was already doing experiments seeing quantum noise effects in 250 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:53,720 Speaker 3: electrical devices. And I thought this was really fascinating because 251 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 3: I liked electronics. I like devices, that was my hobby 252 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:01,600 Speaker 3: and whatever, and of course quantum mechanics fascinating. So I 253 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:05,080 Speaker 3: went to a conference down in UCLA and it was 254 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 3: clear people were talking about it was really interesting, but 255 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:12,520 Speaker 3: people really didn't understand the experiment very well yet. 256 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 1: Oh what was the question? 257 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:17,560 Speaker 3: Well, the question was could you see this macroscopic quantum 258 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:18,440 Speaker 3: tunneling effect? 259 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 1: Okay, here's the question, doctor Martinez, doctor John Clark, and 260 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:26,600 Speaker 1: doctor Michelle Deveray. Where tackling was could you get something 261 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 1: bigger than an electron, maybe something millions of times bigger 262 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 1: to quantum tunnel So instead of having one electron passing 263 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:38,120 Speaker 1: through a wall and appearing on the other side, could 264 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:41,080 Speaker 1: you get a whole bunch of them acting together to 265 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:41,880 Speaker 1: tunnel through. 266 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:45,760 Speaker 3: And at the time, it was just murky and not 267 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:48,360 Speaker 3: very clear in the light. And I remember talking to 268 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 3: John Clark about that and he said, yeah, well, there 269 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:54,320 Speaker 3: were some experiments that are already done, but you know, 270 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:55,800 Speaker 3: if we're going to do this, we're going to have 271 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:56,800 Speaker 3: to do something new. 272 00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 1: How did you go about designing this experiment? He said, 273 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:01,280 Speaker 1: something new was needed. 274 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 3: So what the experiment is very simple. You'll have this 275 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:08,560 Speaker 3: weak link adjosin junction and you put current through it, 276 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:12,120 Speaker 3: so in some condition it looks like a superconductor. And 277 00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:14,560 Speaker 3: then as you raise the current more and more, at 278 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 3: some point it switches to the voltage state. Okay, it 279 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:19,680 Speaker 3: looks like a normal metal wire. 280 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 1: This is a little hard to explain, but it's basically 281 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:26,680 Speaker 1: the same picture we had before. Imagine a wire where 282 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 1: you have electrons flowing through it, but now in the 283 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 1: middle of the wire you put up a wall, a 284 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 1: thin piece of something that doesn't conduct electricity. So now 285 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:39,920 Speaker 1: the electrons can flow through the wire unless the quantum 286 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:44,120 Speaker 1: tunnel through the wall. Now, as I mentioned, getting one 287 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:48,240 Speaker 1: electron to quantum tunnel through is not that hard. Happens 288 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:50,480 Speaker 1: all the time on the flash memory of your phone. 289 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 1: But that's only one electron at a time. To get 290 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:57,280 Speaker 1: more than one electron tunnel at the same time, you 291 00:15:57,320 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 1: need to make the wire a super conduct. 292 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:04,960 Speaker 3: All the electrons in a normal mettle are kind of 293 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 3: moving around independently. But what happens is when you go 294 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 3: into the superconducting state, they lock together and it's like 295 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 3: they condense into what it's called a BCS state. Then 296 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 3: it behaves like a single it's a ball if you like. 297 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:27,880 Speaker 3: So you really needed the superconducting state to see a 298 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:29,120 Speaker 3: macroscopic state. 299 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:33,240 Speaker 1: This gets a bit technical, but if you make your 300 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 1: wire a superconductor by making it out of a special 301 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:40,080 Speaker 1: material and making it super cold, then all the electrons 302 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 1: and the wire start to sort of bunch together and 303 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:45,760 Speaker 1: they get linked in a quantum mechanical way so that 304 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:50,120 Speaker 1: they act like one giant electron. And that's what doctor 305 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 1: Martinez and his colleagues were able to show. Can quantum 306 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:57,160 Speaker 1: tunnel not just one electron or a pair of electrons, 307 00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:01,680 Speaker 1: but a synchronized blob of millions of electrons. Now the 308 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 1: secret sauce here was two things. One they added some 309 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:08,639 Speaker 1: new bells and whistles to the experiment that nobody had 310 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:12,920 Speaker 1: tried before, better filters in a microwave resonator. And two 311 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 1: they had a lot of moxie. I love to ask 312 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:20,119 Speaker 1: you about the moment of discovery. 313 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:24,040 Speaker 3: Well, the moment of discovery was when we did this 314 00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:27,840 Speaker 3: initial experiment it didn't work, and then we discovered how 315 00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:30,440 Speaker 3: to fix it, and then we got it to work, 316 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:32,880 Speaker 3: and that's when we really felt we were going to 317 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 3: get this to work. And then it just took a 318 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:38,680 Speaker 3: lot of effort to get it to work and understand everything. 319 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:40,959 Speaker 3: It took some time to get there, but you just 320 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:43,680 Speaker 3: did experiment after experiment and it made. 321 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:46,439 Speaker 1: Sense interesting, and so you didn't give up. Do you 322 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:48,880 Speaker 1: remember that moment where you're lifted on You're like, oh, 323 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 1: it's working. 324 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:52,439 Speaker 3: Yeah, I kind of remember that, the one of this 325 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 3: initial experiment us being very pleased with that. The one 326 00:17:57,080 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 3: moment I do remember is we were just from turning 327 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:03,840 Speaker 3: on that sample, cooled it down, I set it up, 328 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:06,879 Speaker 3: and I had an assilloscope that was tracing when it 329 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:10,399 Speaker 3: switched from the zero voltage to the vaulted state, and 330 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 3: I could see those three peaks. Okay, up until then, 331 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:17,239 Speaker 3: I only saw one peak. Those three peaks are just 332 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:21,280 Speaker 3: the smoking gun of quantum mechanics, to have three distinct 333 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 3: frequencies in this system, and that's a property of quantum 334 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:28,919 Speaker 3: mechanics that tells you there's something very unusual going on 335 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:33,119 Speaker 3: with this kind of wave nature. Okay, there's something you know, 336 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:36,480 Speaker 3: really quantum going on there. But when I saw those 337 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:39,560 Speaker 3: three peaks. I knew that when I analyzed the data, 338 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 3: this would be a totally clear explanation what was going on. 339 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 3: So I do remember the joy of seeing that and 340 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:52,000 Speaker 3: knowing that you know, this would be the really conclusive 341 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:54,280 Speaker 3: proof that it was the main quantum mechanics. 342 00:18:55,640 --> 00:19:00,399 Speaker 1: So that's the story of a Nobel Price winning discovery. Next, 343 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:03,439 Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about what was so significant about this 344 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:07,040 Speaker 1: discovery and how it's creating a boom in the rays 345 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 1: to create the first really functional quantum computer. Stay with us, 346 00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:30,920 Speaker 1: we'll be right back, and we're back. We're talking about 347 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:33,960 Speaker 1: quantum tunneling. And we just heard one of the winners 348 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:37,199 Speaker 1: of this year's Nobel Prize in physics describe how he 349 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:40,000 Speaker 1: and his colleagues were able to prove that the weird 350 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:43,200 Speaker 1: properties of quantum physics don't just happen at the level 351 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:47,240 Speaker 1: of single particles like electrons or protons. If you set 352 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:50,800 Speaker 1: things up right, you can see quantum properties in bigger objects, 353 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:53,600 Speaker 1: big enough to hold in your hand. Now the question 354 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:57,359 Speaker 1: is what can you do with that. Here's Professor Shohini Coach. 355 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 1: So we've been talking about fundamental and small particles, but 356 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:05,439 Speaker 1: this year's Nobel Price went to a quantum tunneling of 357 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 1: bigger things, things that are bigger than microscopic objects exactly. 358 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:15,040 Speaker 2: So the reason that this was an important step was 359 00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:18,199 Speaker 2: not because this was anything new about tunneling. This was 360 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:22,240 Speaker 2: something that was perhaps the next step in a long 361 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:28,280 Speaker 2: series of theoretical and experimental studies that were exploring quantum effects. 362 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:31,600 Speaker 2: But all of those were being done at that very 363 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 2: very small, individual particle level. So measuring the current generated 364 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:38,960 Speaker 2: by one electron is extremely difficult, but measuring the current 365 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 2: generated by a million is a million times higher current, 366 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:48,920 Speaker 2: So that immediately makes the engineering piece much much easier. 367 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:51,200 Speaker 1: Well, first of all, thank you for making things easier 368 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:55,679 Speaker 1: for engineers. I'm an engineer. We always appreciate when the 369 00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 1: physical world is easier to design for. 370 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:01,360 Speaker 2: So I think the big advance was it led to 371 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 2: this new possibility of creating devices and doing engineering at 372 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 2: a larger scale, and that would lead to technologies for 373 00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:10,840 Speaker 2: the future, and that's really what happened. 374 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:15,200 Speaker 1: So the big breakthrough here is in making it easier 375 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:19,119 Speaker 1: to make quantum devices. As we said, quantum objects have 376 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 1: some strange properties that almost seem like magic, and before 377 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 1: this discovery, we thought the only way to make them 378 00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 1: was by handling and manipulating hiny, little fragile particles or 379 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:35,040 Speaker 1: individual atoms. But what doctor Martinez and his colleagues discovered 380 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 1: was that you can get that same quantum magic with 381 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:41,959 Speaker 1: larger objects that are easier to work with and put together. 382 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:45,159 Speaker 1: And one of the biggest applications so far is in 383 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:49,320 Speaker 1: making quantum computers. If you're interested in learning more about 384 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:52,200 Speaker 1: quantum computers, we did a whole episode on them earlier 385 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:55,640 Speaker 1: this year, so check that out. But the main takeaway 386 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:58,639 Speaker 1: is that quantum computers could be used for lots of 387 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:03,640 Speaker 1: interesting applications, including breaking encryption, which would make all your 388 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:07,919 Speaker 1: passwords and all that cryptocurrency out there useless. And the 389 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:11,560 Speaker 1: idea here is that you can build quantum computers using 390 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:17,439 Speaker 1: the very same devices that the Nobel Price winning researchers made. 391 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:21,320 Speaker 2: This became the basis for creating all kinds of devices, 392 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:24,920 Speaker 2: the most important of those being what we call these 393 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 2: quantum computing devices that are new types of computers that 394 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:33,399 Speaker 2: use these superconducting circuits as a fundamental unit of what 395 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:35,720 Speaker 2: we call a quantum bit, which is, like, you know, 396 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:38,960 Speaker 2: we have regular bits that drive our regular computers. Quantum 397 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:42,480 Speaker 2: bits are what are driving our quantum computers. So big 398 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:46,440 Speaker 2: companies now like IBM and Google and others are using 399 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 2: that same idea to build out these quantum devices. 400 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:54,600 Speaker 3: So this has led to an enormous field of people 401 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:57,640 Speaker 3: trying to build the quantum computer. Right now, there are 402 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:00,200 Speaker 3: a few thousand people who are trying to build the 403 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 3: super conducting quantum computer. 404 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:06,159 Speaker 1: Now here's an interesting historical fact. The idea to use 405 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:09,440 Speaker 1: this super conducting circuit doctor Martinez and his colleagues made 406 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:13,200 Speaker 1: for quantum computers may have been sparked by a chance 407 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:17,880 Speaker 1: encounter with none other than the famous physicist Richard Feynman. 408 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 4: So you're demonstrated your artificial atoms that can be connected 409 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:23,640 Speaker 4: by and controlled by wires. 410 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:27,000 Speaker 1: That's Matterini, the editor of Physics magazine. 411 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:29,399 Speaker 4: Was very clear in your mind, Oh, this is going 412 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:31,600 Speaker 4: to be a cute bit. I'm going to make quantum computers. 413 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:34,000 Speaker 4: I remember reading somewhere you were at a conference where 414 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 4: Fineman was presenting his quantum computing ideas. 415 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:39,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. At the end of my PhD, I 416 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:41,719 Speaker 3: came to Santa Barbara for a conference and they were 417 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:45,440 Speaker 3: talking about this physics and then Viinman gave a talk 418 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:49,520 Speaker 3: where he kind of talked about a quantum computer, and yeah, 419 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:53,639 Speaker 3: it was clear that this was really interesting and this 420 00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:56,679 Speaker 3: would be something physicists would love to figure out how 421 00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:59,960 Speaker 3: to do. And then it wasn't until the Factory Now 422 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:03,600 Speaker 3: algorithm by Peter Shore, which is the beginning of the nineties, 423 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:06,840 Speaker 3: that people saw that there was a way to do this, 424 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:10,080 Speaker 3: or at least a motivation to do this. And then 425 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 3: sometime after that there was a funding going on so 426 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:16,960 Speaker 3: that when the funding was available, we could start doing 427 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 3: things pretty effectively. 428 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 1: Actually, doctor Martinez has been at the forefront of making 429 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:24,080 Speaker 1: quantum computers. 430 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:28,920 Speaker 3: Now these systems can now form quantum bits, and we 431 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:31,960 Speaker 3: can build these systems and make a quantum computer out 432 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 3: of it. And you know, I've been doing this for 433 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:37,919 Speaker 3: forty years now, and it took, you know, many decades. 434 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:41,399 Speaker 3: And the big culmination of all this was in twenty 435 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:44,840 Speaker 3: nineteen when I was working for Google. We did this 436 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 3: quantum supremacy experiment of fifty three cubits where we showed 437 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 3: for a very mathematical problem that we could do a 438 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 3: quantum calculation that would be very very difficult, very costly 439 00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:01,479 Speaker 3: to simulate with a classical super So we show that 440 00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:05,119 Speaker 3: a quantum computer was powerful. Eventually, if we build a 441 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:07,840 Speaker 3: useful quantum computer, this is going to be used to 442 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:11,480 Speaker 3: solve real problems, and it might be part of artificial 443 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 3: intelligence and helping with large language models kind of things. 444 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:20,400 Speaker 3: I'm thinking about how we can simulate chemistry and materials, 445 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:24,680 Speaker 3: maybe to use materials that are more ecologically mind or 446 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 3: cheaper to mind, so that these new materials can be 447 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:32,000 Speaker 3: more common for people. That would be quite the benefit 448 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:32,720 Speaker 3: to humanity. 449 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:36,720 Speaker 1: All Right, you magically appeared at the end of the episode. 450 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,040 Speaker 1: Hopefully that'd give you a good sense of what this 451 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:43,399 Speaker 1: strange quantum phenomenon is, how it impacts your everyday life, 452 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 1: and how it might change your future. So the next 453 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:49,320 Speaker 1: time you use your phone or a computer, think about 454 00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:53,040 Speaker 1: the mountain of challenges that scientists and engineers had to 455 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:56,840 Speaker 1: tunnel through to get to the other side. Thanks for 456 00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:02,439 Speaker 1: joining us, See you next time you've been listening to 457 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:06,919 Speaker 1: science stuff. Production of iHeartRadio written and produced by me 458 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:11,800 Speaker 1: or Y cham dited by Rose Seguda, executive producer Jerry Rowland, 459 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:14,960 Speaker 1: and audio engineer and mixer Kasey Pegram And you can 460 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:18,200 Speaker 1: follow me on social media to search for PhD comics 461 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:20,560 Speaker 1: and the name of your favorite platform. Be sure to 462 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:23,920 Speaker 1: subscribe to Science Stuff on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 463 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:26,879 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts, and please tell your 464 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:34,440 Speaker 1: friends we'll be back next Wednesday with another episode. Hey 465 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:36,600 Speaker 1: for a post credits bonus. I thought i'd played for 466 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:40,679 Speaker 1: you two interesting moments in our conversation with doctor John Martinez. 467 00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:43,080 Speaker 1: After all, it's not every day you get to interview 468 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:45,760 Speaker 1: a Nobel Prize winner. The first moment is when I 469 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 1: asked him what it was like to make this Nobel 470 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:51,800 Speaker 1: Prize winning discovery as a graduate student and what advice 471 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:55,440 Speaker 1: he has for future young scientists. And after that, I'll 472 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:58,679 Speaker 1: play you the moment doctor Martinez said he learned something 473 00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:02,920 Speaker 1: new from me. I mean, it's definitely not every day 474 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:06,600 Speaker 1: you get to teach a Nobel Price winner anything enjoy. 475 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:09,840 Speaker 1: I'm interested in the idea that you were a graduate 476 00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:11,960 Speaker 1: student when you did this work. I think that's a 477 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:15,120 Speaker 1: little rare. What was your state of mind back then 478 00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:17,879 Speaker 1: as a graduate student? Were you even dreaming of a 479 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:20,639 Speaker 1: Nobel Prize or were you just interested in the problem 480 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:21,679 Speaker 1: in front of you? 481 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:21,800 Speaker 4: No. 482 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:26,720 Speaker 3: Bell Prize is just so unobtainable, even if you're super smart, 483 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:30,119 Speaker 3: it's not a goal anyone should have. But what a 484 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:34,399 Speaker 3: goal one should have is to do a good thesis experiment. Okay, 485 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:37,400 Speaker 3: you know I went to the conference and people were 486 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 3: talking about it. It seemed absolutely fascinating because it was 487 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:44,760 Speaker 3: answering a very fundamental question. I don't know why lots 488 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:47,280 Speaker 3: of other people didn't jump on it, but you know, 489 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:49,840 Speaker 3: John was kind of set up to jump on it 490 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:53,800 Speaker 3: because he was looking at quantum effects and devices at 491 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:56,280 Speaker 3: the times. And I would say also the funding at 492 00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:59,199 Speaker 3: that time. He had enough general funding so that we 493 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:02,080 Speaker 3: could just do it. So it was very lucky about that. 494 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:05,560 Speaker 1: Amazing. Well, you've been super generous with your time, John. 495 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:09,439 Speaker 3: It's fun and I liked it very much because I 496 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:13,159 Speaker 3: think I have a better way to describe how tonly works. 497 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:15,439 Speaker 1: Wait, what was the new way to explain it that 498 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:16,439 Speaker 1: you came up with today. 499 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,359 Speaker 3: Oh, it's the fact that you just think about going 500 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:21,520 Speaker 3: through a wall, it's going to take energy to get 501 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:24,280 Speaker 3: inside that wall. You can think of as an energy 502 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:25,960 Speaker 3: argument why you bounce off. 503 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:28,240 Speaker 1: Meaning you have to push your way through the. 504 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:30,280 Speaker 3: You have to push your way through and there's some 505 00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:32,679 Speaker 3: force and you know it's just not going to do 506 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 3: that However, quant mechanically, you can borrow the energy to 507 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:39,600 Speaker 3: get through that for a short amount of time, and 508 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 3: then if you go through the wall in that short 509 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:44,880 Speaker 3: amount of time, then you can pay back the energy 510 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:47,680 Speaker 3: and you're okay. So that's the way to explain it. 511 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:51,360 Speaker 3: That's great, and we should work on this in the comics. 512 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 1: Yeah. You know, if you send me like doodles, like 513 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:56,600 Speaker 1: napkin doodles or any kind of doodles, I can't. 514 00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:00,400 Speaker 3: Well, I'm too busy now to do that because besides 515 00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:03,000 Speaker 3: doing all the nobel things, I have to go to 516 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:07,960 Speaker 3: Washington next week to meet with people and talk about quantum, 517 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:11,080 Speaker 3: and I'm trying to raise money for my company. I 518 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 3: have like three or four jobs right now, so I 519 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:16,680 Speaker 3: can add the job of a cartoonist.