WEBVTT - Ep. 224: Size Matters 0:00:08.960 --> 0:00:13.320 This is a meat eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely, 0:00:13.440 --> 0:00:18.319 bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listening podcast. You 0:00:18.360 --> 0:00:22.600 can't predict anything presented by on X hunt creators are 0:00:22.600 --> 0:00:26.160 the most comprehensive digital mapping system for hunters. Download the 0:00:26.239 --> 0:00:29.400 Hunt app from the iTunes or Google play store. Now 0:00:29.440 --> 0:00:36.400 where you stand with on x okay, first thing we 0:00:36.400 --> 0:00:40.640 gotta start out with is uh um two fish and 0:00:40.640 --> 0:00:43.120 related things, never to get into the real meat of 0:00:43.200 --> 0:00:45.360 the show. Here with the two fish related things on 0:00:45.479 --> 0:00:49.760 episode to two two, which is a couple of goal. 0:00:49.920 --> 0:00:51.720 We just did an episode to to three and someone 0:00:51.760 --> 0:00:53.920 pointed out that we should have commemorated it more carefully 0:00:53.920 --> 0:00:56.840 because it was a rifle caliber. So the two two three. 0:00:57.360 --> 0:01:00.440 But the two two two episode, which is all, isn't 0:01:00.440 --> 0:01:04.080 there another? I believe there's a two two two? Yeah? 0:01:04.440 --> 0:01:10.399 Search that up? Um. I I challenged the veracity. I 0:01:10.520 --> 0:01:13.800 challenged the veracity of a man's email who wrote in 0:01:13.800 --> 0:01:18.920 to say that he snagged a fishing line or snagged 0:01:18.920 --> 0:01:21.480 a rod ice fishing in a hundred feet of water, 0:01:22.319 --> 0:01:25.840 pulled up the rod, reeled up all the line and 0:01:25.920 --> 0:01:27.920 lo and behold on the end of it is a 0:01:28.000 --> 0:01:31.240 dead whitefish, and I was and I think I must 0:01:31.280 --> 0:01:36.080 I somehow questioned the veracity of of his tail and 0:01:36.160 --> 0:01:39.399 unless he went out that day with a rotten whitefish. Um, 0:01:39.440 --> 0:01:43.240 he sent in photographs that made me that back them up. 0:01:43.920 --> 0:01:47.640 So my apologies to his name is Steu Beard. My 0:01:47.720 --> 0:01:52.840 apologies the uh Mr ste Beard that looks like a 0:01:52.920 --> 0:01:55.640 legitimately rotten whitefish you found on the bottom of of 0:01:55.720 --> 0:01:59.280 the lake. It's so rotten and looked that he was 0:01:59.360 --> 0:02:02.880 kind of poking at it in the picture and it 0:02:02.920 --> 0:02:08.280 doesn't want to quite seem to want to grab it. Um, 0:02:08.400 --> 0:02:10.400 guy's not interested. This is not a ficient related one, 0:02:10.400 --> 0:02:12.240 but I think that someone sent in as they sent in. 0:02:12.280 --> 0:02:13.720 Did you see this, Yanni? A guy sent in a 0:02:13.720 --> 0:02:17.880 turkey's gizzard? Hm, open, cut open you know what had 0:02:17.919 --> 0:02:23.960 in it? A marble like a kid's marble. I believe it. 0:02:24.720 --> 0:02:26.720 I'll put that picture on Instagram. So if you go 0:02:26.800 --> 0:02:30.600 to Stephen Ronella on Instagram. The question is those you 0:02:30.600 --> 0:02:33.920 think he was eating it too to add to like 0:02:34.000 --> 0:02:37.320 the stones, yes, gizzard? Or did you think it was 0:02:37.360 --> 0:02:41.600 some sort of dude that he hadn't seen before. It's 0:02:42.800 --> 0:02:45.320 seven eight times bigger than a normal piece of that's 0:02:45.320 --> 0:02:48.040 a great question, man. I hadn't thought about it like that. Yeah, 0:02:48.040 --> 0:02:50.480 because it's definitely way bigger than the average piece of 0:02:50.480 --> 0:02:52.560 stone that's in that gizzard. You know what he could 0:02:52.600 --> 0:02:54.639 have thought it was? Do you know how they eat snails? 0:02:55.240 --> 0:02:59.160 M hmm. I hadn't incurred to me that that was marble, 0:02:59.240 --> 0:03:00.839 had like a little swar roll to it. It could 0:03:00.840 --> 0:03:03.520 have been like a little snail. I found a bear 0:03:03.560 --> 0:03:07.919 ship one time that was all Crayola crayons. Yeah, he 0:03:08.000 --> 0:03:14.720 found a box of Crayola crayons. Um. Yeah, I think 0:03:14.760 --> 0:03:17.720 you're probably correct. He wasn't picking it up as grit. 0:03:18.160 --> 0:03:22.040 He thought he's eating something tasty. The last fishing thing 0:03:22.120 --> 0:03:24.720 is a conundrum, the father and son conundrum that we 0:03:24.760 --> 0:03:27.040 need to that they had asked that we weigh in on. 0:03:28.440 --> 0:03:33.360 So this dude and his dad we're fishing, and they 0:03:33.440 --> 0:03:36.160 both had lines out, and the old man gets distracted, 0:03:36.560 --> 0:03:38.640 and the kid looks and his the old man's rods 0:03:38.680 --> 0:03:40.800 going crazy while the old man's off talking to some guy. 0:03:41.600 --> 0:03:43.760 So the kid runs over and reels the rod and 0:03:43.880 --> 0:03:50.040 it's like some tanker four pound rainbow. H So, whose 0:03:50.080 --> 0:03:53.960 fish is it? I think it's the old man's fish 0:03:54.480 --> 0:03:59.600 really an unintended rod. Yeah, I'm gonna he rigged and 0:03:59.680 --> 0:04:04.080 he did. He cast it out. It's like, I don't know. 0:04:05.040 --> 0:04:06.680 If I saw like a video of what was going on, 0:04:06.720 --> 0:04:08.280 maybe I'd have a different opinion. But I don't know. 0:04:08.280 --> 0:04:11.280 Maybe this old man was like barely distracted so that 0:04:12.160 --> 0:04:14.080 his listeners don't think that it's just you and I 0:04:14.120 --> 0:04:16.159 are sitting here talking to each other all day. I 0:04:16.160 --> 0:04:20.720 think we should ask our guests, you guys have anything 0:04:20.720 --> 0:04:25.919 to say, please keep mind he's a representatives here from 0:04:25.960 --> 0:04:28.159 I would actually defer to you guys. We have three 0:04:28.160 --> 0:04:31.120 representatives here from the Boone and Crocket Club. So they 0:04:31.160 --> 0:04:33.640 spent all all day. Uh, they sit there and look 0:04:33.720 --> 0:04:36.320 at um, you know, whether or not to accept things 0:04:36.320 --> 0:04:38.040 in the record books and stuff. So I feel like 0:04:38.120 --> 0:04:40.240 these guys have like a moral uh, they sort of 0:04:40.240 --> 0:04:44.680 have the moral high ground. You have the well you 0:04:44.720 --> 0:04:46.719 have there, you have the credentials to weigh it out. 0:04:47.080 --> 0:04:49.240 So so that let's say you guys were a fish. 0:04:49.600 --> 0:04:52.280 Let's say you guys kept fish records and this is 0:04:52.320 --> 0:04:54.960 a record fish and they come to you and be like, 0:04:55.120 --> 0:04:56.960 here's this record fish, and You're like, clearly it's a 0:04:57.000 --> 0:05:00.920 record fish, whose name do we put down? And and uh, 0:05:01.040 --> 0:05:03.719 they tell you the story. A lot of times when 0:05:03.720 --> 0:05:06.680 that happens, one'll take the ownership of the fish and 0:05:06.680 --> 0:05:08.880 the other one will say they called it. Now, as 0:05:08.920 --> 0:05:11.440 long as the person that called it had the fishing license, 0:05:12.040 --> 0:05:14.040 they would be good, you know, when they followed all 0:05:14.040 --> 0:05:15.640 the rules. A lot of times that's what a lot 0:05:15.680 --> 0:05:18.880 of the father's sons do is though, like the sunnell, 0:05:19.760 --> 0:05:22.400 shoot it or vice versa. And then we have a 0:05:22.480 --> 0:05:25.120 thing where the father that could then take ownership, which 0:05:25.160 --> 0:05:27.960 is basically just a sentence letting us know that, hey, 0:05:28.000 --> 0:05:31.880 this person hook this fish and I'm the owner of it. 0:05:32.480 --> 0:05:34.599 So we base everything off of the ownership of the 0:05:35.279 --> 0:05:40.040 of the trophy. So that would mean, that's what I'm saying, 0:05:40.040 --> 0:05:44.080 who owns the fish? They would have to decide. Yeah, Oh, 0:05:44.160 --> 0:05:47.040 they would have to decide legally, isn't it whoever reels 0:05:47.040 --> 0:05:50.000 the fish in, like, because there are certain states that 0:05:50.080 --> 0:05:52.240 say if you hook it and landed at your fish 0:05:52.279 --> 0:05:54.560 and it's on your bag limit, So I can't hook 0:05:54.560 --> 0:05:59.960 a fish and hand it off. It had the legality 0:06:00.040 --> 0:06:02.159 of it. So the kid that grabbed the rod, I 0:06:02.160 --> 0:06:04.560 think legally it is his fish, but if he was 0:06:04.640 --> 0:06:07.360 nice enough, to Kyle's point, he could allow his dad 0:06:07.360 --> 0:06:10.480 to be listed as a secondary fisherman in this case, 0:06:10.480 --> 0:06:13.479 assuming they both had the license is necessary for the fish. 0:06:13.720 --> 0:06:16.480 I like that perspective on it. That like, let's say 0:06:16.560 --> 0:06:22.400 he had pulled it in and then there was a problem, 0:06:22.400 --> 0:06:24.360 like he retained I fish, he wasn't allowed to retain. 0:06:25.720 --> 0:06:27.640 He wouldn't be able to be like, well, the game warden, 0:06:27.680 --> 0:06:30.520 you better talk to my old man. It was his rod. Yeah, 0:06:30.680 --> 0:06:32.960 the game ward is gonna be interested in who who 0:06:33.040 --> 0:06:38.279 hookedn't who landed it? Yeah, alright, so it's the kids fish. 0:06:38.720 --> 0:06:43.080 Thank you. Settle that problem for the family before you move. 0:06:43.920 --> 0:06:48.560 Before you move on to to to Remington's triple deuce, 0:06:48.920 --> 0:06:53.560 first center fire twenty two galiber in our country. There 0:06:53.560 --> 0:06:57.000 you go, great John, he earned his key. Okay, now 0:06:57.000 --> 0:06:59.560 we'll do intros. We're talking everybody from the we're talking 0:06:59.600 --> 0:07:01.719 to folks on Buona Crocker Club. We're gonna explore this 0:07:01.760 --> 0:07:04.240 whole thing up down sideways. But let's start out with 0:07:04.240 --> 0:07:05.960 it like what do you what do you guys do 0:07:06.680 --> 0:07:09.920 each of you? You know? So I'm Tony Shonen and 0:07:09.960 --> 0:07:13.160 I'm the chief executive officer. Crockett, how long you held 0:07:13.200 --> 0:07:19.960 that position? Um? About two weeks they just changed. I 0:07:20.080 --> 0:07:22.160 was the chief of staff for twelve years and then 0:07:22.680 --> 0:07:25.000 they just decided to change my death for whatever reason. 0:07:25.080 --> 0:07:29.000 So anyway, I've been running the organizationization for about twelve 0:07:29.080 --> 0:07:33.400 years and I've been thirty years the outdoor space. About 0:07:33.480 --> 0:07:36.440 half of that was the for profit sector, half was 0:07:36.480 --> 0:07:39.920 the nonprofit sector. UM. I went to my first shot 0:07:39.960 --> 0:07:42.440 show when I was twenty one. I just went to 0:07:42.480 --> 0:07:44.280 my thirty fifth. I should be get because some kind 0:07:44.280 --> 0:07:47.200 of a prize, but they haven't offered me anything. Still 0:07:47.240 --> 0:07:50.400 alive me too. That's a lot of like coming home 0:07:50.400 --> 0:07:53.920 with like a weird flu. Yeah, I've managed to avoid 0:07:53.960 --> 0:07:56.800 the weird flues, but uh, but no, So it's been 0:07:56.840 --> 0:07:59.440 a good rite. UM had a video production company to 0:07:59.480 --> 0:08:01.840 begin with, and then I went to work for Wonders 0:08:01.920 --> 0:08:06.520 Wildlife that ran that operation down there, and uh then 0:08:06.640 --> 0:08:09.320 to Buona. Crockett. Oh, but the Wonders well Life just 0:08:09.400 --> 0:08:12.880 opened up. They were opened before and then when I 0:08:13.000 --> 0:08:15.960 left as an executive director there, they shut it down 0:08:16.200 --> 0:08:18.720 for remodel and then they just opened it up two 0:08:18.800 --> 0:08:20.680 years ago, which I don't know if you guys been there, 0:08:20.720 --> 0:08:23.320 but it's an awesome place. I keep hearing people that, 0:08:23.520 --> 0:08:26.720 um that aren't easily impressed. He would say, it's like 0:08:26.840 --> 0:08:30.040 really something. Yeah, no, it's it's an awesome I don't 0:08:30.080 --> 0:08:31.840 know anything about it. Where what is it? And where 0:08:31.880 --> 0:08:35.600 is it? Said, well, I'll tell you, I've never been there. 0:08:35.640 --> 0:08:40.280 And now it's a it's a it's a it's a 0:08:40.920 --> 0:08:44.280 museum and aquarium that was built. The first round was 0:08:44.320 --> 0:08:46.800 in two thousand and one, and the original intent of 0:08:46.920 --> 0:08:51.400 John Johnny Morris was to have a home for hunters 0:08:51.400 --> 0:08:53.520 and anglers and and and all the stories and the 0:08:53.559 --> 0:08:59.560 traditions surrounding that community. And UM and then UM, when 0:08:59.559 --> 0:09:02.319 I left two thousand and seven, UM, Johnny wanted to 0:09:02.320 --> 0:09:04.480 make it a bigger and benner place, and so that's 0:09:04.480 --> 0:09:07.480 what he did. And so it's still a tribute to 0:09:07.520 --> 0:09:11.199 the American sportsman and women of the country. But it's UM, 0:09:11.240 --> 0:09:14.560 it's incredible. You just got to see it too. Something 0:09:14.679 --> 0:09:16.920 really described. We had our two awards programs there the 0:09:17.000 --> 0:09:22.480 last two times, like three miles of trail through there. Yeah, 0:09:22.640 --> 0:09:25.520 is that the one that's down in Florida. It's in Springfield, Missouri. 0:09:26.120 --> 0:09:33.760 You're thinking of, right, a hotel, right, something like that. No, 0:09:33.880 --> 0:09:36.400 but yeah, just people know Johnny Morris is the you know, 0:09:36.440 --> 0:09:39.400 the founder of Bass Pro Shop. That's a hell of 0:09:39.400 --> 0:09:42.959 a story. Yeah, like that guy's life. He started out 0:09:43.000 --> 0:09:46.240 like selling bait, selling bait at a marina or something 0:09:46.280 --> 0:09:49.600 like that. He started in his dad's liquor stores with 0:09:49.679 --> 0:09:52.160 an in cap. Yeah, and his dad had I don't 0:09:52.160 --> 0:09:54.400 know how many liquor stores, doesn't or so in Springfield, 0:09:54.400 --> 0:09:57.400 and he sold he sold off the inn cap and 0:09:57.440 --> 0:10:02.280 actually there's a rendition of the very first uh uh 0:10:02.520 --> 0:10:06.360 in cap that he had at in the museum at 0:10:06.600 --> 0:10:08.880 one of his dad's lager stores. And so yeah, live 0:10:09.040 --> 0:10:11.000 like a live bait and cap or a tackle in 0:10:11.400 --> 0:10:13.720 I know, it's just a tackle in cap, you know. 0:10:13.840 --> 0:10:17.400 He didn't he didn't like the uh the the tackle 0:10:17.440 --> 0:10:19.120 that the local store was using. So he went to 0:10:19.200 --> 0:10:21.520 Arkansas about a chuck little back put him in his 0:10:21.600 --> 0:10:24.679 dad's stores, and that's where the whole story started. As 0:10:24.720 --> 0:10:26.880 he called the Bass Pro Shop back then. Yeah, it's 0:10:26.880 --> 0:10:28.719 always bass Bro as far as I know. I mean, 0:10:28.920 --> 0:10:31.120 he's a little bit older than I am, but I've 0:10:31.160 --> 0:10:35.480 known John for thirty years, forty years, and it's always 0:10:35.520 --> 0:10:37.960 been bass pro. Yeah, he's sharp dude though. He's a 0:10:37.960 --> 0:10:41.440 great guy. Neil find of Begger conservationist than he he is. 0:10:42.120 --> 0:10:44.839 We should have him on, I'd like to. So if 0:10:44.840 --> 0:10:48.240 you're listening, John, alright, So moving on, then there's Joannice 0:10:48.520 --> 0:10:53.240 as though dealing poker. Good morning, and then moving over. Yeah, 0:10:53.280 --> 0:10:56.120 my name is Kyle Lair. I'm the assistant director of 0:10:56.160 --> 0:10:58.920 Big Game Records at the Boone and Rocket Club. I've 0:10:58.960 --> 0:11:02.080 been there for a little over five years now, Assistant 0:11:02.120 --> 0:11:07.280 director of Big Game. So my main duty is to 0:11:07.320 --> 0:11:09.160 review all the entries that we get in. So we 0:11:09.200 --> 0:11:14.680 have about four volunteer official measures throughout North America and 0:11:14.720 --> 0:11:17.120 it's my job to basically make sure that every entry 0:11:17.160 --> 0:11:20.400 that comes in basically has all its ta s Carlston 0:11:20.480 --> 0:11:23.880 size dotted and then to make sure that you know 0:11:24.000 --> 0:11:26.920 to be there they have any questions while they're scoring, 0:11:27.000 --> 0:11:31.040 or any questions about our based policies and procedures stuff 0:11:31.080 --> 0:11:36.840 like that, but mainly keep those entries moving through. So uh, 0:11:36.880 --> 0:11:39.880 there's volunteer scores. We'll explain what this all means in 0:11:39.880 --> 0:11:44.840 a minute, but plus minus a good a good majority 0:11:44.880 --> 0:11:46.199 of them. I mean a lot of the people that 0:11:46.240 --> 0:11:51.199 we train to be official measures want to be, and 0:11:51.280 --> 0:11:54.800 so there a lot of what they measure though doesn't 0:11:54.840 --> 0:11:59.160 quite I mean, it's it's pretty rare to actually harvest 0:11:59.160 --> 0:12:02.760 to Boone and Crockett Club caliber animal. So a lot 0:12:02.840 --> 0:12:05.120 of guys want to become official measures and they think 0:12:05.120 --> 0:12:08.680 they're going to measure a ton and they might only 0:12:08.720 --> 0:12:12.640 get a couple in their lifetime, but they enough to 0:12:12.800 --> 0:12:16.920 enter the books. Yeah, but they they don't. The ones 0:12:17.000 --> 0:12:19.800 that don't make it, we don't necessarily see. So they're 0:12:19.800 --> 0:12:23.800 doing a lot of basically public contact for us. I 0:12:23.800 --> 0:12:26.360 mean they're they're the people that most of the public 0:12:26.480 --> 0:12:28.439 is going to see. They won't talk to Justin or 0:12:28.480 --> 0:12:31.240 I or anyone else, they'll they'll meet our official measures. 0:12:31.240 --> 0:12:34.080 So they're pretty much ambassadors for us. And and so 0:12:34.120 --> 0:12:36.480 it's our job to make sure that they know what 0:12:36.520 --> 0:12:39.680 they're doing and know how to do it. Yeah, my 0:12:39.720 --> 0:12:41.360 old man was a scorer. I know he did it. 0:12:41.440 --> 0:12:43.360 He was really active in Pope and Young. But I'm like, 0:12:43.360 --> 0:12:45.959 I think, I feel like I know he did Commemorative 0:12:46.000 --> 0:12:48.760 Bucks of Michigan. He scored for Pope and Young, and 0:12:48.760 --> 0:12:52.000 I'm almost certainly scored for Boone and Crockett. Is that 0:12:52.120 --> 0:12:55.120 something you can look up past measures? Yeah? Oh yeah, yeah. 0:12:55.120 --> 0:12:57.560 We keep track of everyone who's been in managing if 0:12:57.559 --> 0:13:00.880 he's registered in there not we're the hello last name, 0:13:01.120 --> 0:13:04.720 Yeah right, I did some research. He was not on there, 0:13:05.000 --> 0:13:08.319 Frank J. Ronell. We did. We did a database transfer 0:13:08.320 --> 0:13:10.520 in two thousand and Some of the names could have 0:13:10.559 --> 0:13:14.320 been lost, but generally speak, I mean, everybody brought their 0:13:14.320 --> 0:13:17.200 stuff over. He had all the forms and maybe he 0:13:17.240 --> 0:13:19.640 was just maybe he just nod. I know he measured 0:13:19.760 --> 0:13:23.080 rifle stuff too. Well, you said it. CBM Commemorative Bucks 0:13:23.080 --> 0:13:25.600 in Michigan is another great scoring organization. We worked with 0:13:25.640 --> 0:13:28.240 close and a lot of these, so maybe he could 0:13:28.280 --> 0:13:30.880 have been registered, state registered. They're they're trained to score 0:13:30.920 --> 0:13:33.720 with our system. They use our system. They just may 0:13:33.760 --> 0:13:37.120 not have gone through the the process of an actual 0:13:37.160 --> 0:13:41.960 BNC certification, which I guess I should introduce myself. Sorry, 0:13:41.960 --> 0:13:45.080 I'm justin Spring. I'm the director of Big Game Records. 0:13:45.080 --> 0:13:48.080 I've been with BNC a little over ten years. Um 0:13:48.160 --> 0:13:50.440 started with him at the assistant director, doing what Kyle 0:13:50.800 --> 0:13:53.200 Um does now with the review of entry, and then 0:13:53.640 --> 0:13:57.199 when he came on I transitioned into the director UM 0:13:57.480 --> 0:13:59.800 basically help him out, make sure the pr side of 0:13:59.840 --> 0:14:03.439 our official majors they're doing the best they can for conservation. 0:14:03.480 --> 0:14:06.720 That's kind of what I'm tasked with UM, making sure 0:14:06.720 --> 0:14:10.880 our scoring is uniform, that the the current science that's 0:14:10.920 --> 0:14:14.280 coming out, we're not rewarding something that's actually a negative. 0:14:14.440 --> 0:14:17.079 Which we'll get into further later on what we're looking for. 0:14:17.640 --> 0:14:22.640 But that's that's my normal position with BNC and kind 0:14:22.640 --> 0:14:25.000 of helping Kyle out and keeping all of our majors 0:14:25.040 --> 0:14:28.240 doing the same thing for uniformity throughout the system. All right, 0:14:28.360 --> 0:14:31.280 we get two deep, we should do this. I want 0:14:31.480 --> 0:14:32.920 I want to bring people up to speed on something 0:14:32.960 --> 0:14:34.880 cause I feel like a lot more people know. I 0:14:34.920 --> 0:14:36.840 think that people know about Boon and Crock. They know 0:14:36.880 --> 0:14:41.680 the scoring system. So let's just catch up on that 0:14:41.760 --> 0:14:44.800 and what that means. And you know, if you're out 0:14:44.800 --> 0:14:47.080 and about and you hear someone say that so and 0:14:47.120 --> 0:14:50.280 so got a one eight white tail, so and so 0:14:50.400 --> 0:14:55.520 got a four bowl, right, um, black bear, Like, what 0:14:55.600 --> 0:14:59.960 does that mean? Okay? So the system was originally start 0:15:00.080 --> 0:15:03.080 the very beginning, they thought wildlife was going extinct and 0:15:03.120 --> 0:15:05.880 they were trying to find the biggest specimens which would 0:15:05.880 --> 0:15:07.800 have gone in the National collection the Heads and Horns, 0:15:07.800 --> 0:15:09.520 which is now what the Wonders of Wildlife, which we 0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:12.040 still have that collection. But they were trying to find 0:15:12.080 --> 0:15:14.320 the biggest to show our generation what was once on 0:15:14.400 --> 0:15:17.640 the North American continent. They thought everything was going extinct. 0:15:17.960 --> 0:15:21.400 So that was the beginning of our records. UM. You know, 0:15:21.560 --> 0:15:24.560 through the work of early club members and conservationists and whatnot, 0:15:24.600 --> 0:15:27.840 things started to turn around. UM. After World War Two, 0:15:27.880 --> 0:15:30.480 conservation is really taken off. You had funding and everything 0:15:30.480 --> 0:15:33.280 in place. People no longer wanted to go see dead 0:15:33.320 --> 0:15:35.680 heads on the wall of the museum, and we had 0:15:35.720 --> 0:15:37.960 this data set that we'd started. And so in nineteen 0:15:38.040 --> 0:15:41.440 fifty they said, we need to create an equitable system 0:15:41.520 --> 0:15:44.480 to evaluate big game and then we can use this 0:15:44.600 --> 0:15:49.560 system to UM monitor conservation successes and failures across the 0:15:49.600 --> 0:15:54.120 North American continent. So they brought together UM. There was 0:15:54.160 --> 0:15:55.640 a couple of people at the time. There was a 0:15:55.720 --> 0:15:58.880 taxidermist that had his own scoring system, and then there 0:15:58.960 --> 0:16:03.800 was system UM which it never took off. It was 0:16:04.200 --> 0:16:07.200 I can I remember the name of it. H Kyle. Well, 0:16:07.200 --> 0:16:10.440 you had grantil Fits and Jimmy Clark. Jimmy Clark. It 0:16:10.480 --> 0:16:12.880 was James Clark taxidermy, and so anybody that was a 0:16:12.960 --> 0:16:16.520 taxidermy client of his would enter their trophies in a 0:16:16.520 --> 0:16:19.160 competition and he'd do a banquet and give out awards. 0:16:19.760 --> 0:16:22.000 So he made one. He made his own little system yep, 0:16:22.120 --> 0:16:26.160 and and it was actually it was pretty well done. Um. 0:16:26.280 --> 0:16:28.920 And then the the other side of it was the 0:16:28.960 --> 0:16:33.640 more you know, widely known system. But anyway, these guys 0:16:33.680 --> 0:16:36.600 come together, Boone and Crockett put together committee of five 0:16:36.600 --> 0:16:39.040 of them that they kind of sat down and they said, okay, 0:16:39.080 --> 0:16:41.760 let's let's look at the science of today and what 0:16:41.760 --> 0:16:44.000 what are the traits that we see in a mature 0:16:44.280 --> 0:16:47.520 male specimen that comes from an ideal habitat. And so 0:16:47.640 --> 0:16:50.520 you look at nature, you have bilateral symmetry. Or that's 0:16:50.560 --> 0:16:53.560 a huge question. Albody asked, why does BNC have deductions? Well, 0:16:53.600 --> 0:16:55.520 if you look at nature, and if you're looking at something, 0:16:55.520 --> 0:16:58.120 your eyes drawn to bilateral symmetry, and it's very common. 0:16:58.440 --> 0:16:59.880 So the first thing they said is we have to 0:17:00.040 --> 0:17:02.960 have left or right matching. That's a sign of healthy 0:17:02.960 --> 0:17:05.560 habitat and healthy animal. And so they went through each 0:17:05.600 --> 0:17:07.840 different category and kind of said, you know what, what 0:17:07.880 --> 0:17:10.440 are the signs of a mature animal? What is calm 0:17:10.520 --> 0:17:13.400 and what's caused by some form of stressor And they 0:17:13.440 --> 0:17:16.360 came together with the system. You know, for moose, for example, Um, 0:17:17.000 --> 0:17:19.080 we don't measure the length of points because the mature 0:17:19.119 --> 0:17:21.840 moose has the palmation that gets bigger, and so a 0:17:21.920 --> 0:17:24.600 very mature bull may not have long points. So they 0:17:24.600 --> 0:17:26.480 didn't want to reward the length of a point on 0:17:26.520 --> 0:17:29.600 a moose. Instead, they wanted to reward the palmation, which 0:17:29.600 --> 0:17:32.720 seemed to be prevalent in the healthiest of the specimens. 0:17:33.119 --> 0:17:35.040 So that was that was the basis, and then they 0:17:35.080 --> 0:17:37.720 just took the number of inches of whatever they felt 0:17:37.800 --> 0:17:40.760 was important, and that gave you a number, you know, 0:17:40.880 --> 0:17:43.840 that was that was the original thing, is you know, 0:17:43.880 --> 0:17:47.120 where where does this rank in terms of um when 0:17:47.119 --> 0:17:49.160 it took a while to get there, yeah, I mean 0:17:49.400 --> 0:17:53.520 the scoring system started out with length of horn and 0:17:53.560 --> 0:17:55.520 what they called the girth of the base or the 0:17:55.560 --> 0:17:58.479 circumference of base, and that was how they got an 0:17:58.560 --> 0:18:02.280 idea of a sheet or a goat, And so it 0:18:02.320 --> 0:18:07.000 started out kind of rudimentary, and they realized that in 0:18:07.080 --> 0:18:10.000 order to be scientific there had to be more rigor, 0:18:10.040 --> 0:18:12.000 and there had to be more measurements to get a 0:18:12.840 --> 0:18:15.960 to allow again the public what they thought the animals 0:18:15.960 --> 0:18:17.960 that were going extinct, to get a picture of what 0:18:18.600 --> 0:18:21.800 that number was. And so if you say that number 0:18:21.880 --> 0:18:25.840 one sixty year a one eight white tail, like you're 0:18:25.840 --> 0:18:28.560 getting a picture in your head of what that is. Yeah, 0:18:29.040 --> 0:18:31.600 well it becomes I think it becomes ingrained for people 0:18:31.600 --> 0:18:34.040 who are exposed to it a lot. I remember when 0:18:34.080 --> 0:18:37.040 I couldn't picture it right, I didn't know what it meant. 0:18:37.359 --> 0:18:40.399 And then gradually over the years now if someone says 0:18:40.440 --> 0:18:43.840 like a mule deer, I get a very specific image 0:18:43.840 --> 0:18:47.199 in my head and it's like I understand it, And 0:18:47.240 --> 0:18:49.240 I tell the o MS and are the official measure 0:18:49.320 --> 0:18:51.640 we call moms and our course, I say, we've we've 0:18:51.680 --> 0:18:55.200 created a system of measurements that you add and subtract 0:18:55.960 --> 0:18:59.159 to get to some number that we've created. Now we 0:18:59.200 --> 0:19:05.160 think that numbers important, and luckily other agencies and scientists 0:19:05.160 --> 0:19:07.560 and stuff have have bawled into that, and the hunters 0:19:07.560 --> 0:19:09.960 as well. I mean, we wouldn't have a database if 0:19:10.000 --> 0:19:12.560 people didn't take the time to have their trophy measure. 0:19:13.119 --> 0:19:16.480 So they've kind of all bawled into it. And so 0:19:18.320 --> 0:19:20.640 you know, it's just like I sais just a set 0:19:20.640 --> 0:19:23.280 of measurements that are add and subtracted to get to 0:19:23.320 --> 0:19:25.440 the score. And and we say entered in as many 0:19:25.480 --> 0:19:28.920 different things. Were no organizations as there is out there 0:19:28.920 --> 0:19:30.800 because they all have an important mission and they're all 0:19:30.840 --> 0:19:33.879 trying to accomplish something. We're just one of them, and 0:19:33.920 --> 0:19:36.920 we've created this measuring system. And I think it's important 0:19:36.960 --> 0:19:39.920 to to you know, go, you know, turning that timetable 0:19:39.960 --> 0:19:43.320 back a little bit. The purpose that you know, these 0:19:43.320 --> 0:19:45.239 guys didn't really kind of sit down and come up 0:19:45.240 --> 0:19:47.200 with their scoring system because they needed something to do. 0:19:47.760 --> 0:19:50.919 You know, there's a there, there's a there's a precursor 0:19:51.040 --> 0:19:54.359 to all of that. When the club was found in seven, 0:19:54.520 --> 0:19:56.280 they wanted to solve a problem, and that was the 0:19:56.320 --> 0:19:59.960 fact that our wildlife populations were being decimated, our natural resource, 0:20:00.160 --> 0:20:03.479 we're disappearing in the West, and um, you know, they 0:20:03.520 --> 0:20:05.199 wanted to figure out a way to fix it. And 0:20:05.280 --> 0:20:09.040 so you know, they started with the Yellowstone Preservation Act 0:20:09.080 --> 0:20:12.640 in eighteen nine two. Then and when Roosevelt was president, 0:20:12.680 --> 0:20:15.560 they got the National Wildlife Refuge System in the National 0:20:15.560 --> 0:20:18.000 Forest Reserve. Was he involved with Boone and Crockett? He 0:20:18.160 --> 0:20:21.240 was right, he founded the organization. Yeah, but so he 0:20:21.240 --> 0:20:24.679 founded in eight seven. Yep. Okay, yep, yep. There's an 0:20:24.640 --> 0:20:27.200 interesting story behind that too. Why the hell real quick, 0:20:27.240 --> 0:20:29.000 I want to get back to your timeline there. But 0:20:29.760 --> 0:20:35.840 um why did he so? Why Boone and why Crockett? Okay, 0:20:35.920 --> 0:20:39.760 that's good, so I'll be you can come back to that. No, no, 0:20:39.920 --> 0:20:44.840 actually that's a good place to go. Um. So when 0:20:45.440 --> 0:20:48.800 the club was found in eighteen eighty seven, because Roosevelt 0:20:48.800 --> 0:20:50.640 had been out west for three years. This was after 0:20:50.640 --> 0:20:53.920 the death of his wife and his mother. Um. Yeah, 0:20:53.960 --> 0:20:57.160 he was a real MoMA's boy. Yeah. Well, but anyways, 0:20:57.520 --> 0:20:59.200 he was out and he had two ranches in Madora, 0:20:59.280 --> 0:21:01.480 North Dakota, and that's when he wrote around in the 0:21:01.560 --> 0:21:04.160 Dakotas and Wyoming and Montana and Idaho, and he saw 0:21:04.320 --> 0:21:09.080 this you know, decimation I'm talking about, and so he 0:21:09.160 --> 0:21:11.360 was upset about that. When he got back to New 0:21:11.440 --> 0:21:14.879 York City in seven, he called around a group of 0:21:14.920 --> 0:21:18.600 guys that, you know, we're influential in their respective areas 0:21:18.640 --> 0:21:25.560 industry people, scientists, education folks, politicians, and but they were 0:21:25.600 --> 0:21:27.960 all joined by one common threat, and that was that 0:21:28.000 --> 0:21:31.200 they were they were hunters, they were sportsmen, and they 0:21:31.240 --> 0:21:36.000 cared about conservation in the future. So they sat around 0:21:36.000 --> 0:21:37.960 scratched your heads trying to figure out, you know, what 0:21:37.960 --> 0:21:41.120 were they going to call this new organization. And at 0:21:41.160 --> 0:21:44.600 the time, Daniel Boone and Davy Crocker were two most 0:21:44.600 --> 0:21:49.000 prominent names in that space, you know, I mean they 0:21:49.040 --> 0:21:53.160 were the most famous people someone in America. And he said, 0:21:53.240 --> 0:21:57.119 named two hunters at that time. Yes, now he was 0:21:57.160 --> 0:22:03.840 still probably on that list. We'll talk about that a 0:22:03.880 --> 0:22:06.040 little bit, but I mean I think the uh, you know, 0:22:06.119 --> 0:22:08.800 so that was how Buona Crowd came about. But anyway, 0:22:08.840 --> 0:22:13.520 so back to the timeline, you know, um in asseence 0:22:13.520 --> 0:22:17.800 the scoring system was created as justin indicated first of all, 0:22:17.840 --> 0:22:22.359 to preserve a something that would show future generations that 0:22:22.520 --> 0:22:25.560 actually once existed on the North American continent. But then 0:22:25.720 --> 0:22:32.199 as our conservation efforts we're successful, state laws were implemented 0:22:32.920 --> 0:22:37.959 um and our population started recovering and growing. The system 0:22:38.000 --> 0:22:40.320 then became a majoring tool for how do we measure 0:22:40.400 --> 0:22:45.000 the success of everything that we've done and so and 0:22:45.080 --> 0:22:47.600 that's what it is today. You know, that's we're still 0:22:48.600 --> 0:22:51.840 gathering this data. We're still sharing it with with state 0:22:51.880 --> 0:22:57.040 wildlife managers, with academics, with folks that you know, why 0:22:57.119 --> 0:23:00.680 is my ecosystem not working? In somebody else is they're 0:23:00.720 --> 0:23:03.800 getting bigger male specimens and I am. You know, they 0:23:03.840 --> 0:23:05.679 come to us and they ask us those questions and 0:23:05.680 --> 0:23:07.480 then they can we can hook them up with those 0:23:07.520 --> 0:23:10.600 people that are successful widlife managers and to help them out. 0:23:11.440 --> 0:23:14.760 And UM, so there's a there's a distinct purpose there 0:23:14.840 --> 0:23:19.359 besides just county inches and county numbers. Well have you 0:23:19.720 --> 0:23:26.000 what have you guys like when you look at the records? Well, 0:23:26.280 --> 0:23:27.919 I want to ask I need to ask you other 0:23:28.000 --> 0:23:32.920 question about the records because um, explain the cut off? 0:23:34.320 --> 0:23:37.239 Like you guys don't accept something until it's a certain size, right, 0:23:37.320 --> 0:23:39.280 or do you accept all numbers? It's just they don't 0:23:39.280 --> 0:23:43.440 get put into the book. So what we uh, what 0:23:43.480 --> 0:23:46.040 we do have said that my question isn't clear enough 0:23:46.080 --> 0:23:48.359 for people. We've said a threshold that says, if it 0:23:48.440 --> 0:23:52.560 exceeds this particular level, it is worth recording as a 0:23:52.640 --> 0:23:57.320 mature male specimen created by this habitat. If we were 0:23:57.359 --> 0:24:00.400 clearly or if we were purely wanting to just ignized 0:24:00.440 --> 0:24:04.119 the biggest and best. Why would we accept a threshold. 0:24:04.280 --> 0:24:06.360 We'd say, send in your biggest mule deer this year, 0:24:06.920 --> 0:24:08.719 and then we just keep track of what those biggest 0:24:08.720 --> 0:24:11.040 ones were. But that's not what our mission is. We're 0:24:11.080 --> 0:24:15.240 looking at any time a male specimen reaches a certain 0:24:15.280 --> 0:24:18.520 age under certain conditions, this is the expression of its 0:24:18.520 --> 0:24:22.239 secondary sexual characteristic a k antlers or horns. And so 0:24:22.320 --> 0:24:24.280 we want to mark this down because we can't keep 0:24:24.280 --> 0:24:26.919 track of everything taken in the country, So we have 0:24:27.000 --> 0:24:29.640 to take a small small bit of this data set 0:24:29.960 --> 0:24:33.960 and then we can extrapolate it out. Now we can't say, okay, Bozeman, 0:24:34.600 --> 0:24:37.560 whatever Gallatin County, Montana, I say, historically it put out 0:24:38.160 --> 0:24:41.000 ten book mule deer year and then it drops the five. 0:24:41.640 --> 0:24:44.000 Our records can't say, oh, well, this is what happened. 0:24:44.040 --> 0:24:45.720 But we can say, well, for thirty years it put 0:24:45.720 --> 0:24:47.760 out ten and then all of a sudden, at this 0:24:47.800 --> 0:24:50.800 point it dropped to five. What changed? And so that's 0:24:50.920 --> 0:24:52.560 that's why we have a threshold, and we had to 0:24:52.600 --> 0:24:55.080 set it somewhere. You know, when you you wanted to 0:24:55.119 --> 0:24:57.600 say those mature male specimens that reach an age and 0:24:57.760 --> 0:25:02.359 beyond breeding. Um prime breeding basically was the idea of 0:25:02.400 --> 0:25:04.320 going for the super older ones because it have no 0:25:04.359 --> 0:25:07.119 effect on the population. So that's what you wanted to 0:25:07.160 --> 0:25:10.520 concentrate your your harvest pressure, and then we can record 0:25:10.560 --> 0:25:12.800 how often those happened and try to extrapolate that to 0:25:12.840 --> 0:25:18.359 habitat quality. So what story does it tell? UM? And 0:25:18.480 --> 0:25:20.000 if you pick a species like let's say you pick 0:25:20.040 --> 0:25:23.720 whitetail deer, does when you look at the submissions that 0:25:23.760 --> 0:25:26.040 come in, like the number of deer every year, and 0:25:26.080 --> 0:25:29.719 when do they start like diligently keeping records? The current 0:25:29.760 --> 0:25:31.840 system was nineteen fifty That's what I was trying to 0:25:31.840 --> 0:25:34.320 get what it wasn't real clear. We started for one 0:25:34.359 --> 0:25:37.680 reason and then it was was redone in the fifties 0:25:37.720 --> 0:25:41.119 to switch focus to really use as a gauge. So 0:25:41.280 --> 0:25:43.760 nineteen fifties and that's when the current system came Out's 0:25:43.800 --> 0:25:45.400 when the current system came out. So if you look 0:25:45.440 --> 0:25:51.160 at from nineteen fifty two, now, UM do you like? 0:25:51.280 --> 0:25:54.200 Does does the story that the record book entries tell 0:25:54.840 --> 0:25:57.080 line up with the story as we generally understand it? 0:25:57.960 --> 0:26:01.080 That meaning that UM starting I don't know when the 0:26:01.080 --> 0:26:04.560 hell is started in the nineties you know, we just 0:26:04.560 --> 0:26:07.119 started to have a lot bigger deer around the country 0:26:07.160 --> 0:26:11.400 because management practices began to change. White tail deer, Well yeah, sorry, 0:26:11.480 --> 0:26:14.199 white tail deer, because management practices began to change. Do 0:26:14.240 --> 0:26:18.840 you like does your stuff reflect that? Yes? Absolutely? I 0:26:18.840 --> 0:26:23.119 mean we're we're entering more every year and that is 0:26:23.119 --> 0:26:26.640 a testament to the effective wildlife management by our state 0:26:26.640 --> 0:26:29.960 and federal agencies. And um, that's kudos to them, because 0:26:30.000 --> 0:26:33.240 I mean we're taking more big creatures in what what 0:26:33.320 --> 0:26:35.680 are the things that you what are some animals that 0:26:35.760 --> 0:26:39.840 you realize that more and more of them are making 0:26:39.840 --> 0:26:42.800 the books? And what are animals where you're looking to 0:26:42.880 --> 0:26:44.919 be like, man, something's not right because we're just not 0:26:44.960 --> 0:26:47.639 seeing them anymore. Well, I guess before we get to 0:26:47.680 --> 0:26:48.960 that one, Steve, I want to go a little bit 0:26:49.000 --> 0:26:51.280 more into your white tail question because it's a great example. 0:26:51.720 --> 0:26:54.560 So you have the nineties, right, Milo Hanson, the buck 0:26:54.600 --> 0:26:57.960 out of bigger Saskatchewan world record typical white tail. At 0:26:58.000 --> 0:27:02.960 that time, we were seeing more top end quality deer 0:27:02.960 --> 0:27:05.719 than we are white tails as we are now now. 0:27:06.880 --> 0:27:09.440 I would argue that what you saw was an overpopulation 0:27:09.480 --> 0:27:12.120 of deer. We were too successful and then you have 0:27:12.359 --> 0:27:15.359 a density. You know, the species is too dense, so 0:27:15.400 --> 0:27:18.639 you're actually seeing a decline in the available resources to 0:27:18.680 --> 0:27:21.080 go to antlers. Well, we had that big die off 0:27:21.119 --> 0:27:23.040 a few years ago. Remember when e h D hit 0:27:23.480 --> 0:27:26.000 the Upper Midwest would have never been seen in Wisconsin, 0:27:26.520 --> 0:27:29.320 you know, across the across that area, and so there 0:27:29.359 --> 0:27:31.040 was a huge die off of white tails. Well we 0:27:31.080 --> 0:27:34.400 saw a corresponding dropping entries. But what we saw after 0:27:34.480 --> 0:27:37.880 that was you had unexploited resources that that tucker buck 0:27:37.920 --> 0:27:41.040 out of Tennessee, there was some deer that absolutely blew 0:27:41.040 --> 0:27:44.080 the doors off because there was extra resources. And so 0:27:44.160 --> 0:27:46.400 something like that is is what our records are real 0:27:46.480 --> 0:27:49.680 cool about. And sometimes it gets lost because I can't 0:27:49.720 --> 0:27:53.040 look at Missoula County on Mountain lion entries and make 0:27:53.359 --> 0:27:58.199 a hypothesis off of one county because I don't have 0:27:58.200 --> 0:28:00.399 a big enough data set. But when I look at 0:28:00.400 --> 0:28:04.440 the entire Upper Midwest and see a sevent decline, that's 0:28:04.440 --> 0:28:07.639 where our records fit in and doesn't really exist anywhere else. 0:28:08.320 --> 0:28:11.240 So that now to get back to your question on 0:28:11.240 --> 0:28:16.080 the species we're seeing um, caribou, caribooer dismal um. We 0:28:16.280 --> 0:28:19.160 are just not seeing big caribou come in with our 0:28:19.440 --> 0:28:22.720 Yeah we're not. We used to get a few thousand 0:28:22.760 --> 0:28:28.240 every three years. We're lucky to get um d Yeah. 0:28:28.800 --> 0:28:32.199 Now there you know you you look at the the 0:28:32.240 --> 0:28:35.280 barren ground caribou in northern Alaska. They're starting to see 0:28:35.280 --> 0:28:37.760 the populations go up. So I'm hoping that I start 0:28:37.800 --> 0:28:41.200 to see that gradual uptick in our records. Um I 0:28:41.280 --> 0:28:43.320 haven't noticed it yet. You know that's more Kyle now 0:28:43.440 --> 0:28:46.560 doing the day to day review. But yeah, I mean 0:28:46.560 --> 0:28:50.560 cariboo are bad bears. We're seeing We're seeing more and 0:28:50.680 --> 0:28:53.720 bigger bears from all over North America, the South. The 0:28:53.720 --> 0:28:57.560 said black bears, grizzly bears, brown bears. They're doing awesome 0:28:57.880 --> 0:29:00.000 like bears are. So you see a lot of big 0:29:00.040 --> 0:29:04.720 grizzlies coming out of Cannon in Alaska. Yeah, Alaska, Pope 0:29:04.720 --> 0:29:08.640 and Young's world record broke twice, I believe. Yeah. Yeah, 0:29:08.680 --> 0:29:12.560 they're the Commack bear. Yeah that was a brown bear. Ye, 0:29:12.920 --> 0:29:15.400 Chris Commack killed the world record archery brown bear. We 0:29:15.440 --> 0:29:17.560 haven't seen it break ours. But I mean again, you're 0:29:17.560 --> 0:29:21.240 still seeing some of the biggest bears in the world. Um, 0:29:21.280 --> 0:29:24.120 so that could tell you. Yeah, it's interesting because you 0:29:24.160 --> 0:29:25.720 can't tell what it can tell you. On one hand, 0:29:25.760 --> 0:29:30.440 you could look and say, um, hats off to Alaska, 0:29:30.680 --> 0:29:32.880 right right, doing a great job. Other hand, you could 0:29:32.920 --> 0:29:38.120 look and say, maybe they're not offering enough opportunity. But 0:29:38.120 --> 0:29:40.240 I wouldn't really say that there because they're like increasing operation. 0:29:40.360 --> 0:29:42.880 Was gonna say, increase is increased effort resulting in an 0:29:43.120 --> 0:29:45.680 in an uptick in the number of trophies we're seeing. Yeah, 0:29:45.680 --> 0:29:47.640 it's hard to untangle it. So and that that's again 0:29:47.680 --> 0:29:49.600 where you have to look at it on a North 0:29:49.640 --> 0:29:52.600 American scale. If you get too precise, you can kind 0:29:52.600 --> 0:29:54.360 of miss it a little bit. With our data set, 0:29:54.400 --> 0:29:57.400 we're just looking at overall trends, so I can say, like, oh, 0:29:57.440 --> 0:29:59.920 the southeastern United States, we're seeing bears from a bun 0:30:00.080 --> 0:30:03.280 to states that we've never seen before. They're getting very big, 0:30:03.320 --> 0:30:05.840 they're doing healthy. Bears in that part of the country 0:30:05.840 --> 0:30:09.760 are doing good. Kudos to you know, Carolinas and Arkansas 0:30:09.800 --> 0:30:13.200 and all that. So you mentioned mountain lions, so out 0:30:13.200 --> 0:30:17.520 of the let's just say, I mean they're only you know, 0:30:17.960 --> 0:30:20.800 I don't know how many states have thirteen or fourteen 0:30:20.840 --> 0:30:24.520 states have legal mountain lion seasons. Maybe our mountain lions 0:30:25.160 --> 0:30:31.200 up or down, steady, steady, steady. Um. Missoula County, Montana, 0:30:31.720 --> 0:30:35.920 that is the place to get a book skull mountain lion. Yeah, 0:30:36.320 --> 0:30:37.960 just over the border in Idaho. Those are the two 0:30:37.960 --> 0:30:41.320 top counties. They're staying stable. But that makes sense with 0:30:41.360 --> 0:30:43.840 the biology of a mountain lion, because you can't have 0:30:43.880 --> 0:30:46.120 too many big toms because they kill each other. So 0:30:46.200 --> 0:30:48.520 it makes sense that that would be something that's kind 0:30:48.560 --> 0:30:52.120 of a status quo, you know, across their range. From 0:30:52.160 --> 0:30:54.320 what we've seen, it's not likely to be super violatile, 0:30:55.280 --> 0:31:03.560 all right, um, Melier out down, but holding steady and 0:31:03.600 --> 0:31:06.680 showing positives in some areas and not in others. It's 0:31:06.720 --> 0:31:08.440 not as dismal as you want. No, it's not the 0:31:08.480 --> 0:31:11.480 sixties of mule deer harvest. Um. I actually did a 0:31:11.920 --> 0:31:14.360 talk on this one time a Wild Cheep. When I 0:31:14.400 --> 0:31:17.440 first started, you know, I had a philosophy and I 0:31:17.520 --> 0:31:19.360 was wrong, and you know, I thought I knew everything 0:31:19.440 --> 0:31:22.000 back then. But um, there was a lot of people 0:31:22.040 --> 0:31:28.000 that brought up brought up um like predator control when 0:31:28.040 --> 0:31:30.760 they when they were seeing those big mule deer in 0:31:30.800 --> 0:31:33.760 Colorado and these you know, deer getting killed. There was 0:31:33.760 --> 0:31:37.400 a lot of people using coyote getters, and so yeah, 0:31:37.440 --> 0:31:39.840 there was a big peak back in the sixties and seventies. 0:31:40.360 --> 0:31:42.440 But they're not they're not continuing to draw, but we're 0:31:42.440 --> 0:31:44.040 putting a lot of effort into them. They're just kind 0:31:44.040 --> 0:31:47.600 of plugging along. And why is Colorado blowing the doors 0:31:47.640 --> 0:31:49.720 off of everywhere else? Yeah, that's that's the thing I 0:31:49.760 --> 0:31:51.680 wanted to ask. Man. I mean, there's a ton of 0:31:51.720 --> 0:31:53.000 ground I want to cover, but I do want to 0:31:53.040 --> 0:31:56.640 hit that real quick. Is uh you know, we spent 0:31:56.720 --> 0:32:04.520 twenty years scouring uh this eight up and down in sideways, um, 0:32:04.520 --> 0:32:07.320 trying to find like a like a like a big builder, 0:32:07.520 --> 0:32:09.760 you know, and I thought there's something wrong with us. 0:32:11.000 --> 0:32:12.880 Then I started making a handful of trips down to 0:32:13.080 --> 0:32:16.880 Colorado and Idaho, and I'm like, oh, I get it. Yeah, 0:32:17.080 --> 0:32:19.440 it's just you know, it's just different, man. There's some 0:32:19.480 --> 0:32:22.080 places that have a lot of them. Is it like 0:32:22.120 --> 0:32:25.680 in Colorado puts off ten to one compared to oh yeah, 0:32:25.760 --> 0:32:27.560 some other Western state. I don't I don't know the 0:32:27.600 --> 0:32:31.200 exact but it's it's ridiculous, you know what I mean. 0:32:31.200 --> 0:32:33.480 I was I remember what my breakdown was but Colorado 0:32:33.480 --> 0:32:35.880 had put in three hundred and something entries and the 0:32:35.920 --> 0:32:38.280 next close this was like a hundred and one, and 0:32:38.320 --> 0:32:41.400 then it drops them Montana that was like forty you know, 0:32:42.520 --> 0:32:47.400 in the same time period. It's incredible, is there even? 0:32:47.640 --> 0:32:49.560 I got all kinds of theories about why that is. 0:32:49.600 --> 0:32:53.440 But what's your theory about why that is? We let 0:32:53.440 --> 0:32:55.520 people shoot mule there all the way through the right? 0:32:56.360 --> 0:32:59.920 I mean, I think you know, Colorado is an opportunity state. 0:33:00.000 --> 0:33:02.200 It but they've they've seemed to set it up to 0:33:02.200 --> 0:33:04.320 where they're bigger deer protected and a lot of those 0:33:04.360 --> 0:33:07.880 real big deer come from sleeper units, and so I 0:33:07.880 --> 0:33:10.240 think they've got they've got the groceries, they've got the 0:33:10.240 --> 0:33:12.800 age structure. They protect him at the right time. I think. 0:33:13.480 --> 0:33:15.800 I think there's no over the counter deer tag there. 0:33:17.400 --> 0:33:21.840 Still we have to check, but I don't think so. 0:33:22.800 --> 0:33:24.760 I think pretty much everything mule deer has gone to 0:33:24.840 --> 0:33:28.560 draw down there. But either way, you're right, I mean, 0:33:28.560 --> 0:33:32.680 they definitely protect those deers um, but you can they 0:33:32.680 --> 0:33:35.160 still have lots of opportunities and go shooting. Does you 0:33:35.200 --> 0:33:38.840 know for a lot of the seasons, Hey, before I 0:33:38.880 --> 0:33:40.480 know where I don't want to leave the scoring system 0:33:40.440 --> 0:33:42.960 before I can reason a couple of my questions because 0:33:42.960 --> 0:33:44.320 and I feel like we need to make sure that 0:33:44.480 --> 0:33:47.880 everybody understands it. But what I want to start off 0:33:47.920 --> 0:33:51.400 with is, because you mentioned it has changed over the years, right, 0:33:51.760 --> 0:33:54.280 is there a chance that the scoring system will change again? 0:33:54.880 --> 0:33:57.120 Because and I can give you my example why it 0:33:57.160 --> 0:34:00.760 brings up this question is that I remember when I 0:34:00.920 --> 0:34:04.400 just got into, like, look at having to judge bull 0:34:04.440 --> 0:34:08.440 elk as a guide in Arizona for clients, and so 0:34:08.480 --> 0:34:11.080 I was getting like getting into that mindset, you know. 0:34:11.880 --> 0:34:14.600 And at the time, there was that world record elk 0:34:14.640 --> 0:34:17.800 that was forever number one. The was it the Plute 0:34:17.880 --> 0:34:21.440 bowl out of Colorado, Black Canyon, right, And then it 0:34:21.480 --> 0:34:24.600 got bested by belief like an inch or something like that, 0:34:24.880 --> 0:34:31.080 by the White Mountain bull Black Canyon bull Vain And 0:34:31.080 --> 0:34:34.080 it was a And when you look at the two 0:34:34.480 --> 0:34:38.800 compared side by side, the Black Canyon Bowl, just wait 0:34:38.880 --> 0:34:42.319 alone you can it must weigh twenty pounds more than 0:34:42.360 --> 0:34:45.120 this the White Mountain bull. White Mountain bulls long and 0:34:45.239 --> 0:34:48.399 spin ley, and but it had the length right, which 0:34:48.440 --> 0:34:51.160 was awarded by your system. But I would say if 0:34:51.160 --> 0:34:53.400 you saw the two animals on the hoof, probably and 0:34:53.440 --> 0:34:55.400 saw the two sets of antlers, you'd say, well, for 0:34:55.480 --> 0:34:57.880 sure that that the black cannonball is just gonna crush 0:34:58.560 --> 0:35:01.640 the white mountain bull because he's just bigger and batter 0:35:01.680 --> 0:35:04.600 and healthier just by judging the mass and his antlers. No, 0:35:04.719 --> 0:35:08.719 And so it's a great question. And if we were 0:35:08.719 --> 0:35:11.480 to create our scoring system today, I guarantee there'd be 0:35:11.560 --> 0:35:14.840 some differences. But what we did was in nineteen fifty 0:35:14.840 --> 0:35:16.560 we did the best we could and some of those 0:35:16.560 --> 0:35:18.880 things now we kind of have to to hang onto 0:35:19.440 --> 0:35:21.279 or all those data points that we have to this 0:35:21.320 --> 0:35:23.640 point become invalid because you can't go look at it 0:35:23.840 --> 0:35:27.040 right and so on ELK, when you mas your g one, 0:35:27.080 --> 0:35:29.200 you start in the center, you transition to the outside 0:35:29.239 --> 0:35:31.480 and go to the tip. That's the number one thing 0:35:31.520 --> 0:35:33.319 that we see problems with. If we were to do 0:35:33.360 --> 0:35:36.080 it today, I'd say that's not really, in my opinion, 0:35:36.080 --> 0:35:40.920 not necessary. So when you're taking the little show, how 0:35:40.960 --> 0:35:42.920 detailed this is, So when you're taking the length of 0:35:42.920 --> 0:35:45.080 a time, you draw on a baseline on ELK because 0:35:45.080 --> 0:35:47.840 what we're talking about here and generally speaking, on the 0:35:47.960 --> 0:35:50.439 edge of the beam where the time. You know where 0:35:50.440 --> 0:35:52.320 the beam would be had the time not happened, is 0:35:52.360 --> 0:35:54.600 where you started. You follow the center of the time 0:35:54.640 --> 0:35:58.640 along the outside curve on elk on the g one point, 0:35:58.640 --> 0:36:01.200 the first point, just because of the way it sits 0:36:01.200 --> 0:36:03.600 on that base, and I think what it was originally 0:36:03.600 --> 0:36:05.279 they didn't have a lot of curvature to him, and 0:36:05.280 --> 0:36:07.680 these bulls were at the time not as mature as 0:36:07.680 --> 0:36:11.080 what we're seeing now. They started in the very center, 0:36:11.320 --> 0:36:13.839 like if you're holding the elk rack sideways, like looking 0:36:13.880 --> 0:36:16.120 at it from the side. You start in the center 0:36:16.160 --> 0:36:19.000 of the time, it goes to the end, it transitions 0:36:19.040 --> 0:36:21.160 to the bottom edge of the time, and then continues 0:36:21.200 --> 0:36:25.000 around the outside curve, which at the time made sense. 0:36:25.719 --> 0:36:28.719 Now I would say probably doesn't. But that's how every 0:36:28.800 --> 0:36:31.640 g one has been measured, so we can't now say, oh, 0:36:31.680 --> 0:36:34.480 never mind, we were wrong on that particular measurement. I 0:36:34.480 --> 0:36:37.319 got a suggestion for you what you could do too. 0:36:37.480 --> 0:36:40.319 If you needed a pivot, You wouldn't do a hard pivot, right. 0:36:40.840 --> 0:36:46.080 You would continue to measure everything the way you've always 0:36:46.120 --> 0:36:49.200 measured it, so that you can at least compare relative 0:36:49.239 --> 0:36:54.160 to the past. But then you simultaneously do the new way, 0:36:54.280 --> 0:36:57.600 and everything has been measured twice, and then in ten 0:36:57.680 --> 0:37:00.759 years you'll have this decade long body of the perfect way. 0:37:01.400 --> 0:37:04.680 But then you miss the nineties, which the eighties and 0:37:04.680 --> 0:37:07.399 the nineties which is the taking off of in white tail. 0:37:07.920 --> 0:37:11.760 You know, um, this is for the future generations. But 0:37:11.760 --> 0:37:13.960 but you need to see where the data set. You 0:37:13.960 --> 0:37:16.480 don't want to discount thirty years, fifty years, eighties to 0:37:16.560 --> 0:37:18.680 continue to do it. You continue to do it, but 0:37:18.719 --> 0:37:20.920 you also do it the new way. Everybody has a 0:37:21.000 --> 0:37:27.400 measured everything twice. You tell our volunteers that hold on 0:37:27.440 --> 0:37:40.680 those guys, right. The follow up question to that to 0:37:40.719 --> 0:37:43.640 be would be like, would you ever add something like 0:37:44.200 --> 0:37:47.439 the weight of an animal or just to get more 0:37:47.520 --> 0:37:50.080 data points? We we did for a while ask for 0:37:50.120 --> 0:37:52.920 the weight of the rack um for a while the 0:37:53.120 --> 0:37:56.279 program the chairman was a professor at the University of 0:37:56.280 --> 0:37:59.239 Montana and he was looking at rack weights and so 0:37:59.320 --> 0:38:01.520 we actually had a data collection thing on the back 0:38:01.560 --> 0:38:04.279 of the entry or the hunter guiding hunt form that 0:38:04.360 --> 0:38:06.560 asked how much did the rack of your animal way 0:38:06.719 --> 0:38:09.600 or horns? How do you get the skull and everything 0:38:09.600 --> 0:38:11.279 on it? Well? And there was a there was a thing. 0:38:11.320 --> 0:38:13.799 How was it cut whole skull? And so as we 0:38:13.840 --> 0:38:15.920 tried to do it, we found out that that wasn't 0:38:15.960 --> 0:38:19.719 really a great It's right, there was a lot of 0:38:19.800 --> 0:38:24.000 variation there, so we quit asking for that particular. What 0:38:24.080 --> 0:38:28.000 did this rack wag um? You hear about water displacement? 0:38:28.000 --> 0:38:30.400 There gets a lot of that, to your point, is 0:38:30.480 --> 0:38:32.560 really big and they think it should be water displacement. 0:38:32.680 --> 0:38:36.520 So water displacement is again it's another great system that's 0:38:36.560 --> 0:38:40.440 interesting to know, but it doesn't reward symmetry. It basically 0:38:40.480 --> 0:38:43.440 rewards freak traits. And so if you're looking at the 0:38:43.440 --> 0:38:45.480 overall health of the animal, you get something that gets 0:38:45.520 --> 0:38:48.680 a big infection and a giant bulbous you know growth 0:38:48.719 --> 0:38:50.719 off of it. Well, that's going to displace more water. 0:38:51.200 --> 0:38:53.880 But that's not actually a positive trait when you're looking 0:38:53.920 --> 0:38:57.160 at you know, how well did this rack? I mean 0:38:57.239 --> 0:38:59.799 something that means you get hit by a car or 0:38:59.719 --> 0:39:02.080 or bit by a bug and it got infected or 0:39:02.120 --> 0:39:04.360 you know, got in a fight and it got broken 0:39:04.360 --> 0:39:07.520 early on in velvet and created something goofy. So that's 0:39:07.560 --> 0:39:11.480 what what would cause those abnormalities is generally a stressor 0:39:11.520 --> 0:39:15.320 that would be negative only have one of our universities 0:39:15.360 --> 0:39:17.799 looking at that, isn't one of our fellows looking at 0:39:17.840 --> 0:39:23.560 that abnormalities caused by stressors? And yeah, and it's been 0:39:23.600 --> 0:39:26.600 looked at a few times. Um, you know, basically the 0:39:26.640 --> 0:39:29.080 science that they had in the nineteen fifties is still solid. 0:39:29.600 --> 0:39:32.520 There is some some workout that shows like split eye 0:39:32.520 --> 0:39:36.560 guards in certain areas. Perhaps that population got so genetically 0:39:36.600 --> 0:39:38.880 bottleneck that all the white tails from some area have 0:39:38.920 --> 0:39:42.280 a split eye guard. And so you could argue, well, okay, 0:39:42.320 --> 0:39:44.480 that's that's what they all have. Well that was created 0:39:44.480 --> 0:39:47.600 by a stressor, that the population is still bottlenecked, that 0:39:47.719 --> 0:39:50.239 this negative trade is now dominant, that doesn't mean we've 0:39:50.320 --> 0:39:53.480 changed the system to reward a negative trade is dominant 0:39:53.520 --> 0:39:56.439 just because they got bottlenecked. I think that the one 0:39:56.440 --> 0:40:02.240 of the uh primary, one of the primary hunter based 0:40:02.280 --> 0:40:06.200 criticisms of the Boone and Crockett scoring system. We'll get 0:40:06.200 --> 0:40:08.880 into the non hunter based criticism of Boone and crocket 0:40:08.880 --> 0:40:11.480 sport scoring system, but the hunter based one has to 0:40:11.520 --> 0:40:16.040 do with like deductions to the point where a lot 0:40:16.080 --> 0:40:20.000 of people I hang out with they they please don't 0:40:20.000 --> 0:40:30.279 say nets are for fish, but yeah, so you I'll 0:40:30.280 --> 0:40:31.920 take a stack. Let let me take a staff of this. 0:40:31.960 --> 0:40:34.799 You tell me where I get it wrong. You you know, 0:40:34.840 --> 0:40:37.520 you shoot a deer and you take all these different measurements. 0:40:37.520 --> 0:40:40.120 Not like you measure the length of the main beam. 0:40:40.400 --> 0:40:43.400 You measure the length of all the different times. You 0:40:43.440 --> 0:40:47.799 measure a bunch of circumferences. Um, you measure like the 0:40:47.880 --> 0:40:51.680 width the inside spread, so the distance from one antler 0:40:51.719 --> 0:40:54.359 to the other antler at the widest point. And you 0:40:54.400 --> 0:40:56.320 add all these up, and we're supposed to You're supposed 0:40:56.360 --> 0:40:59.120 to do it for each side, left antler, right antler. 0:41:00.040 --> 0:41:02.680 And so let's say you get a um, you get 0:41:02.719 --> 0:41:07.839 a left antler that's seventy, and you get a right 0:41:07.920 --> 0:41:13.240 antler that's sixty. Someone would think, oh, so you shot 0:41:13.280 --> 0:41:17.480 a one thirty white tail. But in fact they penalize 0:41:17.520 --> 0:41:22.000 you or not or reward you. There's like some penalty 0:41:23.200 --> 0:41:26.120 because of the fact that they're different, and that pisces 0:41:26.120 --> 0:41:28.319 people off. Now you say, now you give them what 0:41:28.360 --> 0:41:30.520 I'm telling people. What I'm trying to say, Well, it's 0:41:30.520 --> 0:41:33.640 not a penalty. We're just we're measuring what's out there. 0:41:33.840 --> 0:41:36.799 People look at people have put constructs on it that 0:41:36.840 --> 0:41:40.759 it's some kind of penalty or reward. Um, sure, it's 0:41:40.800 --> 0:41:42.879 just what the animal. You know, it's what it is. 0:41:43.760 --> 0:41:45.400 It's just a set like I said earlier, it's just 0:41:45.440 --> 0:41:48.560 a set of measurements that are added and subtracted. And 0:41:48.600 --> 0:41:50.400 there's other school But the reason people feel like they 0:41:50.440 --> 0:41:52.600 got robbed, I think is because they look at the 0:41:52.760 --> 0:41:55.160 because it's about them. It's not about the antists. It's 0:41:55.160 --> 0:41:56.719 about them. I'm not saying it's not about them, but 0:41:56.760 --> 0:41:59.319 they're looking at the thing. They see the number because 0:41:59.320 --> 0:42:02.799 it's even like a box. It's like net or gros 0:42:03.440 --> 0:42:06.160 so gross is like all the score of the deer. 0:42:06.280 --> 0:42:08.640 And then you do like your deductions. And I think 0:42:08.680 --> 0:42:11.000 people get bummed when they have to look at the 0:42:11.000 --> 0:42:14.880 one number. They feel like it's taxes they're paying, So 0:42:15.040 --> 0:42:16.680 look at the one number, and then they got to 0:42:16.680 --> 0:42:18.960 write the real number down, and I think they'd rather 0:42:19.040 --> 0:42:21.560 just stick with the big number. When someone asks you, 0:42:21.560 --> 0:42:23.040 like how much do you make? I think a lot 0:42:23.080 --> 0:42:25.600 of like so says, well, how much do you make? 0:42:25.840 --> 0:42:28.759 Depending on the audience, you tell your like pretax or 0:42:28.800 --> 0:42:32.680 post tax number, because you know it just it tells 0:42:32.680 --> 0:42:35.240 the narrative. So I think, yeah, it's like being tax 0:42:35.280 --> 0:42:37.239 so like, why can't I have the big number? Why 0:42:37.360 --> 0:42:40.040 I'm just gonna tell everybody the big number and I'm 0:42:40.040 --> 0:42:42.200 not gonna tell him the small number. Tell him whatever 0:42:42.239 --> 0:42:45.719 you want. So when I go to explain that, because 0:42:45.840 --> 0:42:47.440 you're right, we get that question a ton of why 0:42:47.480 --> 0:42:53.440 are you penalizing this? I love that word penalizing. It's 0:42:53.480 --> 0:42:54.960 like a guy comes to your house, like takes the 0:42:55.040 --> 0:43:00.359 points away, throw a flag. No, um, what you're doing? 0:43:00.400 --> 0:43:04.440 What causes those differences? Like what causes a big deduction? 0:43:04.800 --> 0:43:06.239 I think it would help if I think if you 0:43:06.239 --> 0:43:08.160 can answer this question for me because I had written 0:43:08.160 --> 0:43:10.760 it down. I'm glad you brought it. The bilateral symmetry again, 0:43:11.200 --> 0:43:16.439 can you? Is it today accepted amongst wildlife biologists that 0:43:16.560 --> 0:43:20.319 bilateral symmetry is a display of the health of an 0:43:20.360 --> 0:43:25.279 animal generally speaking, yes, yes, they're like I said, That's 0:43:25.280 --> 0:43:27.600 why I tried to get out where they've shown some 0:43:27.600 --> 0:43:31.080 some traits that aren't necessarily perfectly bilateral have been shown. 0:43:31.480 --> 0:43:33.799 But for the most part, you know, and I mean 0:43:33.800 --> 0:43:36.640 look at nature and the whole. A tree that's healthy 0:43:36.680 --> 0:43:39.440 isn't gonna be lopsided to one side. Um, you know, 0:43:39.600 --> 0:43:42.760 anything you want to look at there is bilateral symmetry, 0:43:42.840 --> 0:43:45.000 and so what causes the variation to that as a 0:43:45.040 --> 0:43:47.399 stress or, which is the basis of it. But where 0:43:47.400 --> 0:43:50.080 I was going is, you know what causes a big deduction? Okay, 0:43:50.520 --> 0:43:53.960 well three of the elks times are broken? Well, he 0:43:54.040 --> 0:43:55.880 was just fighting. I shot him late in the season. 0:43:55.960 --> 0:43:59.799 That's not a penalty. Well, what results in excessive fighting 0:43:59.840 --> 0:44:03.720 that breaks times and overpopulation of bulls. So that actually 0:44:03.760 --> 0:44:06.040 leads us to believe that perhaps the bull population in 0:44:06.040 --> 0:44:09.000 that unit could be too high because these stressors are 0:44:09.000 --> 0:44:11.320 being exhibited on this rack, which results in a deduction. 0:44:11.920 --> 0:44:14.799 So if you're talking to your buddies and you're making 0:44:14.800 --> 0:44:17.000 it about you know, well, my dear, was this or gross? This? 0:44:17.680 --> 0:44:19.840 Gross is fine? But when we're looking at the actual 0:44:20.080 --> 0:44:22.680 health of the species and the habitat, that's what the 0:44:22.760 --> 0:44:24.880 nets for. So my go to is, you know, the 0:44:24.920 --> 0:44:27.719 grosses for the hunter, the nets for the animal. Yeah, 0:44:27.760 --> 0:44:29.560 I think that we're larger. Where it comes from is 0:44:29.600 --> 0:44:37.320 I think that people, um people have taken a tool 0:44:39.280 --> 0:44:44.640 created for a purpose and created like a tool created 0:44:44.640 --> 0:44:46.759 by an organization to pursue like the sort of long 0:44:46.880 --> 0:44:50.399 term goal and they don't know about that. They don't 0:44:50.400 --> 0:44:53.279 know about the tool, and I think it's just a 0:44:53.320 --> 0:44:58.040 way to write how to communicate to your friend over 0:44:58.080 --> 0:45:02.799 the phone what it was. And so they don't they 0:45:02.840 --> 0:45:08.399 see imperfections in the tool without knowing or even like 0:45:08.400 --> 0:45:10.480 like why is it that way? And I mean the 0:45:10.480 --> 0:45:13.239 club itself is so much bigger than records and what 0:45:13.480 --> 0:45:16.959 Justin and I run. I mean, we do so much 0:45:17.000 --> 0:45:19.840 more then. I mean, we're known for our record book, 0:45:20.239 --> 0:45:22.799 but we do so much more for conservation and and 0:45:22.840 --> 0:45:24.719 I know Tony can touch on that a lot more, 0:45:24.800 --> 0:45:27.520 but I mean what we do with our university programs 0:45:28.000 --> 0:45:34.719 and you know what we do with UM our associates 0:45:34.760 --> 0:45:38.919 program and our conservation and ethics program. I mean, it's 0:45:38.960 --> 0:45:41.799 so much more than than what Justin and I do 0:45:41.920 --> 0:45:44.560 well roll that out. I mean, we we've gotten welcome 0:45:44.560 --> 0:45:46.080 back to the scoring thing to mix. There's some more 0:45:46.320 --> 0:45:48.800 points about it, but yeah, like give a bigger context 0:45:48.840 --> 0:45:51.479 for what, you know, besides coming up ways for people 0:45:51.480 --> 0:45:55.319 to argue about how big the deer was, what goes 0:45:55.320 --> 0:45:57.520 down over there? Well, so you know really that like 0:45:57.560 --> 0:45:59.640 the records program is about tim percent of our budget 0:46:00.520 --> 0:46:04.480 UM when we were founded the intent was to make 0:46:04.560 --> 0:46:09.040 some course corrections in UM in wildlife health and inhabitat health, 0:46:09.480 --> 0:46:11.360 and the only way to do that was through policy. 0:46:12.160 --> 0:46:16.319 So you know, back then and today, you know, a 0:46:16.400 --> 0:46:20.960 huge chunk of our mission is spent developing conservation policy 0:46:21.040 --> 0:46:25.040 in Washington, d C. And helping the state's develop UH 0:46:25.160 --> 0:46:29.759 policies at the state level. UM. You know, we're very 0:46:29.840 --> 0:46:34.760 much involved with forced health. We're involved with UM wildlife disease. 0:46:35.520 --> 0:46:38.640 You know, we're we're a group that people go to 0:46:38.640 --> 0:46:42.600 to say, Okay, you guys have the knowledge to come 0:46:42.640 --> 0:46:44.719 up with a solution to the problem that we've identified. 0:46:45.520 --> 0:46:48.120 And that's what we do UM, and that is what 0:46:48.440 --> 0:46:52.520 the probably two thirds of our entire mission budget goes towards, 0:46:52.719 --> 0:46:56.440 is that that effort to make sure that we have land, 0:46:56.520 --> 0:47:00.120 that we have public access, that we have when is 0:47:00.160 --> 0:47:03.319 get out there, they have UH animals to look at 0:47:03.560 --> 0:47:06.360 that the landscape that supports those same animals supports all 0:47:06.440 --> 0:47:10.560 kinds of other wildlife like birds and fish. UM. You know, 0:47:10.640 --> 0:47:12.680 the health of the not on the health of wildlife, 0:47:12.680 --> 0:47:16.680 but also the health of the habitat. So UM policy 0:47:16.760 --> 0:47:18.600 is a big part of what we do. How do 0:47:18.640 --> 0:47:23.120 you guys get money anyway we can. But um, we 0:47:23.360 --> 0:47:26.800 you know, our members, you know, we still when Roosevelt founders, 0:47:27.840 --> 0:47:29.360 we have a hundred you know, he founded us with 0:47:29.360 --> 0:47:33.040 a hundred regular members. And again those are guys and 0:47:33.120 --> 0:47:36.080 gals that are influential in their respective fields. But they're 0:47:36.120 --> 0:47:39.839 all joined by the common threat of being hunters and 0:47:40.880 --> 0:47:44.440 um and so when they they are a big part 0:47:44.520 --> 0:47:47.120 of us. You know that they you know, member contributions, 0:47:47.200 --> 0:47:51.120 member dues are a big part of our budget. Our 0:47:51.160 --> 0:47:53.879 corporate partnerships are a big part of our budget. Are 0:47:55.040 --> 0:47:57.640 we have a fairly healthy endowment, and that those interest 0:47:57.760 --> 0:48:00.120 earnings are a big part of our budgets. People that 0:48:00.560 --> 0:48:04.400 die and then do like a not like bequeath to 0:48:04.480 --> 0:48:06.920 a non prom partially, yeah, partially, and then a lot 0:48:06.960 --> 0:48:08.799 of them have just been major gifts from again those 0:48:08.880 --> 0:48:11.600 hundred Readlar members. Because with you know that that those 0:48:11.680 --> 0:48:13.680 the by laws have never changed. There's just the same 0:48:13.800 --> 0:48:16.520 number of Redlar members today as there was, you know, 0:48:16.560 --> 0:48:19.600 a hundred thirty years ago. You know, so you keep 0:48:19.600 --> 0:48:22.680 it at keep it at one hundred. And so we 0:48:22.800 --> 0:48:24.880 have about a hundred and sixty of what we call 0:48:25.000 --> 0:48:28.239 professional members, and those guys and gals are like worker bees. 0:48:29.239 --> 0:48:31.720 Justin and I are professional members. I've been a professional 0:48:31.800 --> 0:48:33.759 member before I ever came to the club. You're not 0:48:33.760 --> 0:48:35.919 a regular member. I'm not a readier member. I don't 0:48:35.960 --> 0:48:40.040 have quite that big a check. But but anyway, I've 0:48:40.080 --> 0:48:42.560 got the fire in the valley. Just not then. But 0:48:42.800 --> 0:48:45.920 um I uh, but you know those in the like 0:48:46.080 --> 0:48:50.040 state agency heads, federal agency heads, a lot of academics, 0:48:50.080 --> 0:48:53.960 a lot of univeriversity professors in forestry and wildlife departments 0:48:54.000 --> 0:48:57.440 in land grant universities across the country are all in 0:48:57.520 --> 0:49:01.200 that mix of professionals where we were which is really 0:49:01.200 --> 0:49:04.080 our knowledge base. You know, when we have a problem 0:49:04.080 --> 0:49:06.480 like cw D is a good example. You know, we're 0:49:06.520 --> 0:49:09.279 front and stater with c w D research trying to 0:49:09.320 --> 0:49:11.279 figure out a way to stop the spread number one. 0:49:11.360 --> 0:49:14.239 Number two, how are we going to fix the problem? Um? 0:49:14.320 --> 0:49:16.400 And you know, we spend a lot of time and energy, 0:49:17.200 --> 0:49:22.480 uh resources, using our professors and our academics that are 0:49:22.520 --> 0:49:25.400 special that that are known all over the country for 0:49:25.480 --> 0:49:28.120 being experts in c w D trying to come up 0:49:28.239 --> 0:49:33.840 with answers to that problem. UM. So you know, in 0:49:33.880 --> 0:49:36.040 the answer to funding, you know, we do have grants 0:49:36.080 --> 0:49:37.880 you know, we have grants, we we we we have 0:49:38.080 --> 0:49:42.520 we we do a lot of matching funding for issues 0:49:42.560 --> 0:49:45.600 like cw D and things like that. But it's UM, 0:49:45.680 --> 0:49:48.799 we're not a huge organization by comparison to a lot 0:49:48.840 --> 0:49:50.879 of others. Do you guys get checked just some people 0:49:50.920 --> 0:49:53.400 to write into check don Yeah, I mean we I 0:49:53.440 --> 0:49:56.480 mean you know that. It's interesting because all of a sudden, 0:49:56.520 --> 0:49:58.920 like on social media, somebody will say, wow, you know, 0:49:58.960 --> 0:50:00.800 you guys are doing a pretty good job there. I 0:50:00.840 --> 0:50:03.800 want to help support you. Yeah, they'll send us some money. 0:50:03.800 --> 0:50:07.880 But I think the main thing is is that unlike 0:50:07.920 --> 0:50:12.400 other groups, we're not relying on events. We don't have chapters, 0:50:12.440 --> 0:50:15.640 we don't have banquets, we don't have. What we are 0:50:15.680 --> 0:50:18.640 relying on is our members and UH and our member 0:50:18.719 --> 0:50:24.560 support and UM. For a long time, there was the 0:50:24.560 --> 0:50:27.200 Budha Crivate Club. You know, we ran silent and deep, 0:50:27.760 --> 0:50:30.319 and you know, nobody really knew what we did. We 0:50:30.360 --> 0:50:32.160 didn't really care that nobody knew what we did. We 0:50:32.200 --> 0:50:33.920 just cared about what the end result was when we 0:50:33.960 --> 0:50:37.160 got the job done. And now you know, we're kind 0:50:37.160 --> 0:50:39.040 of coming out of a cocoon. In the last ten 0:50:39.120 --> 0:50:41.120 years and talking a little bit more about what we do, 0:50:41.200 --> 0:50:43.040 because we want people to be aware of that these 0:50:43.560 --> 0:50:45.759 these issues are not so different than what they were 0:50:45.760 --> 0:50:48.279 a hundred and thirty years ago. There's just different solutions 0:50:48.680 --> 0:50:51.320 to the same types of issues. You know, the threats 0:50:51.360 --> 0:50:54.759 to our public lands, the you know, the threats to 0:50:54.760 --> 0:50:57.520 the health of our wildlife. UM. But at the end 0:50:57.560 --> 0:51:00.880 of the day, if if, if, if it comes, it 0:51:00.920 --> 0:51:03.120 boils down to the hunter and the angler. If you 0:51:03.160 --> 0:51:05.719 don't have those guys out there fishing and hunting, and 0:51:05.760 --> 0:51:08.000 you don't have those licenses getting sold and you don't 0:51:08.040 --> 0:51:11.759 have you know, our state and federal agencies dry up, 0:51:12.160 --> 0:51:15.400 and that funny mechanism is solely dependent on hunters and 0:51:15.440 --> 0:51:18.040 anglers who need fresh water to fish. They've got to 0:51:18.080 --> 0:51:20.960 have public lands and or land access to hunted, and 0:51:20.960 --> 0:51:23.960 they've got to have healthy, healthy wildlife populations to hunt. 0:51:24.640 --> 0:51:27.720 And so we've always tried to be in a position 0:51:27.760 --> 0:51:30.920 we're kind of looking down the road and anticipating what 0:51:30.920 --> 0:51:33.399 what is the next big problem, what is the next 0:51:33.440 --> 0:51:40.160 big threat? And UM, you know, we have huge wildfires now, UM, 0:51:40.200 --> 0:51:44.000 you know across the Western States, and you know, the 0:51:44.040 --> 0:51:47.120 forest health and rangement health UM is not what it 0:51:47.160 --> 0:51:50.200 needs to be. Um, you know, we've got to take 0:51:50.320 --> 0:51:54.600 much more aggressive approach to active forest management and restoration 0:51:54.680 --> 0:51:58.600 and and make sure that you know, we our forests 0:51:58.640 --> 0:52:02.279 aren't tinder boxes. And so you know, those are the 0:52:02.320 --> 0:52:03.920 kind of issues that we look at. And I know 0:52:04.000 --> 0:52:06.480 it's really boring for the average hunter to sit there 0:52:06.520 --> 0:52:10.040 and all this stuff. That's why you know, the records program, 0:52:10.080 --> 0:52:13.239 you know, the concept of fair chase. Those are two 0:52:13.280 --> 0:52:16.120 cornerstones of our organization that I really are public face 0:52:16.239 --> 0:52:19.200 that are somewhat sexier than what it is that we 0:52:19.239 --> 0:52:21.520 actually do behind the scenes to ensure that those two 0:52:21.600 --> 0:52:24.319 things can happen. Yeah, that the fair chas thing is 0:52:24.360 --> 0:52:28.520 interesting because I see there, you know, you're a hunter 0:52:28.680 --> 0:52:32.280 like your brun and Crocker closed a hunter based organization. 0:52:33.120 --> 0:52:35.200 But there's a little bit of a conflict. I can 0:52:35.239 --> 0:52:38.360 imagine where on one hand, if it's just records keeping, 0:52:39.800 --> 0:52:42.839 it would be that um, like it was just specifically 0:52:42.840 --> 0:52:46.560 trying to understand in some geographical area, how many animals 0:52:46.560 --> 0:52:50.760 of a certain size the landscape kicked off put off. 0:52:51.520 --> 0:52:55.200 It would include like animals that were killed by poachers, 0:52:55.840 --> 0:52:59.640 animals that were struck by vehicles, animals just turned up 0:52:59.640 --> 0:53:03.120 dead and someone swimming pool right and be just bring 0:53:03.560 --> 0:53:06.880 come one, come all. But you don't do that because 0:53:06.920 --> 0:53:12.800 there's a cash attached to getting an animal in the 0:53:12.840 --> 0:53:15.520 record book, and so you don't just let anyone through. 0:53:16.160 --> 0:53:19.920 And you have rules and regulations about who can get 0:53:19.960 --> 0:53:27.520 in that are more stringent even than state law. Yeah, like, 0:53:27.520 --> 0:53:30.759 how do you reconcile tholes that because we actually do 0:53:30.840 --> 0:53:34.759 accept found heads. Oh you do. So the picked up 0:53:35.000 --> 0:53:36.880 is what it goes in as or if it was 0:53:36.920 --> 0:53:38.960 an example party taken. We don't feel that's a fair 0:53:39.040 --> 0:53:40.680 chase thing. But a lot of states all well, three 0:53:40.719 --> 0:53:43.680 states at party hunting, we don't list the hunter what 0:53:43.800 --> 0:53:46.640 those rules. Also, you do have a way I got you, 0:53:46.760 --> 0:53:49.440 so you do log the presence of the animal. You 0:53:49.480 --> 0:53:53.320 just don't reward yep. For example, we have a state 0:53:53.400 --> 0:53:55.799 owned heads. So when they say that Buona Crocker won't 0:53:55.880 --> 0:53:59.560 accept it, we won't let you won't accept it. Isn't 0:53:59.600 --> 0:54:03.000 reward well, well, because it still recognizing the animal. In 0:54:03.040 --> 0:54:05.120 some cases we wouldn't accept it if it was from 0:54:05.239 --> 0:54:09.160 a high fence population that's not indicative of the area's 0:54:09.239 --> 0:54:11.960 native wildlife. I never I never understood that didn't know 0:54:12.000 --> 0:54:14.279 that that was true. So you do take it into account, right, 0:54:14.840 --> 0:54:17.120 We've got we've got it. One of the first deerray 0:54:17.200 --> 0:54:20.480 process got hung up on a cemetery fence, like they 0:54:20.480 --> 0:54:23.279 found it hanging their dead in the morning. So yeah, 0:54:23.280 --> 0:54:26.040 and that's a picked up head um wildlife agencies if 0:54:26.239 --> 0:54:28.200 you guys want to know about it. If the state 0:54:28.320 --> 0:54:31.920 confiscates ahead, we never list whoever you know the poacher was, 0:54:32.360 --> 0:54:35.279 but it's shown as owned by Montana Fish, Wildlife and 0:54:35.360 --> 0:54:37.680 Parks and where it came from and where it came from. Oh, 0:54:37.719 --> 0:54:40.200 I see, I didn't realize that, but it is. It 0:54:40.320 --> 0:54:42.480 is you you bring up because that's not how people like. 0:54:43.080 --> 0:54:44.640 So much of what I know about Buda Crock Club 0:54:44.719 --> 0:54:47.040 was just from like shoot the ship with earlier. I 0:54:47.040 --> 0:54:50.120 don't like what I hear that. That's that's the thing 0:54:50.160 --> 0:54:52.160 I always heard, is like that, well they don't accept acts, 0:54:52.360 --> 0:54:55.920 they don't accept this and that. Um, so yeah, I 0:54:55.920 --> 0:54:57.759 got you. Now we have it. We have a set 0:54:57.760 --> 0:55:00.640 of rules that are fair chase requirements that you have 0:55:00.800 --> 0:55:03.000 to stay within to be recognized. And this goes back 0:55:03.040 --> 0:55:06.120 to the beginning of it, like for you to your 0:55:06.200 --> 0:55:09.080 name as a fair chase hunter. This deer taken in 0:55:09.120 --> 0:55:11.840 fair chase by this person. That goes back to the 0:55:11.920 --> 0:55:14.480 very beginning. There was no rules and so they had 0:55:14.520 --> 0:55:17.799 to try to switch everybody's opinion on, you know, what 0:55:17.880 --> 0:55:21.240 was appropriate. So they said to get into our records book, 0:55:21.320 --> 0:55:23.879 and this is pre nineteen fifty, you know whatever, you 0:55:23.960 --> 0:55:26.720 must take this in fair chase. And at the time 0:55:26.760 --> 0:55:29.400 you couldn't jack light, you couldn't crust them in the snow. 0:55:29.880 --> 0:55:32.520 It was a lot shorter even then you might have 0:55:32.680 --> 0:55:35.680 legally been. So they in the very beginning they put 0:55:35.719 --> 0:55:39.160 that on. What happened is the hunter perception started to change. 0:55:39.160 --> 0:55:42.320 The fair chase took off. Um, you know, state agencies, 0:55:42.400 --> 0:55:45.960 loophold started the you know, the Wildlife School in Wisconsin, 0:55:46.040 --> 0:55:48.880 and all of a sudden you had scientifically trained managers 0:55:48.880 --> 0:55:51.200 that are setting this. But at the time, fair chase 0:55:51.280 --> 0:55:54.720 was one of necessity to force harvest on the old 0:55:54.760 --> 0:55:58.600 mature at males, basically forcing trophy hunting in the beginning, 0:55:58.640 --> 0:56:02.240 which was the sure male harvest that did not affect 0:56:02.280 --> 0:56:04.879 the population. And that was the whole beginning of fair 0:56:04.960 --> 0:56:07.799 chase where we continue it today. Again, the reason for 0:56:07.880 --> 0:56:10.480 fair chase is kind of morphed. We no longer have 0:56:10.600 --> 0:56:14.040 to follow fair chase to save wildlife populations, but fair 0:56:14.120 --> 0:56:16.800 chase is integral to what Tony pointed out on hunting 0:56:16.800 --> 0:56:19.640 and fishing to continue and the funding for wildlife to continue. 0:56:20.160 --> 0:56:28.040 What is um what's an example of a practice like 0:56:28.080 --> 0:56:31.080 what would be something that Buona Crockett Club would regard 0:56:31.120 --> 0:56:34.279 as not fair chase that could be legal somewhere, and 0:56:34.360 --> 0:56:39.680 what's vice versa like like the opposite example. So the 0:56:39.719 --> 0:56:41.759 biggest ones that we see is some states allow the 0:56:41.840 --> 0:56:45.800 usage of radios to talk somebody intoing a game animal Arizona, Oregon, 0:56:45.840 --> 0:56:48.520 for example. You can, or you could. The last time 0:56:48.520 --> 0:56:51.359 I looked talk somebody into an animal. We say, if 0:56:51.360 --> 0:56:54.680 you guide hunters to game with an electronic you know, 0:56:54.760 --> 0:56:58.600 with use of electronic communications, it's out. Um. You know. 0:56:58.640 --> 0:57:01.480 Another one that that's probably with the biggest misconception that 0:57:01.520 --> 0:57:06.040 we have is cellular trail cameras. It's not fair chase 0:57:06.120 --> 0:57:09.440 to get live images of a game species while you're 0:57:09.480 --> 0:57:12.200 hunting it. We're working on that final wording on that, 0:57:12.239 --> 0:57:15.520 but for cellular trail cameras, if I'm sitting I could 0:57:15.560 --> 0:57:18.200 be sitting here in this podcast and all of a sudden, 0:57:18.200 --> 0:57:20.480 the bear walks by one of my trail cameras. If 0:57:20.480 --> 0:57:22.920 it was legal in Montana, I could then go legally 0:57:23.000 --> 0:57:25.360 hunt that bear in many states, and that is not 0:57:25.480 --> 0:57:28.760 fair chase. UM. The other side of it, and this 0:57:28.880 --> 0:57:32.600 is a very contentious topic, is baiting UM Baiting is 0:57:32.640 --> 0:57:37.200 a general practice, especially for bears, is not a violation 0:57:37.240 --> 0:57:40.400 of fair chase. Ah. So that's an example something you 0:57:40.440 --> 0:57:43.280 might not be allowed to do in a state. But 0:57:43.480 --> 0:57:45.680 you would accept that if you were correct, and that 0:57:45.800 --> 0:57:48.640 then you can never do something illegal. So you know, 0:57:48.920 --> 0:57:51.040 if if if it's illegal, debate in your state, you 0:57:51.080 --> 0:57:54.280 can't do it, it's okay. So you always you always 0:57:54.360 --> 0:57:57.160 bow to the state. Right If the state is more restrictive, 0:57:57.240 --> 0:58:00.880 that's fine. But with with the bay eating for bears, 0:58:01.000 --> 0:58:03.800 you know, for black bears in certain areas, that's the 0:58:03.840 --> 0:58:05.400 only way that you can get a real good look 0:58:05.440 --> 0:58:07.120 at a bear and make sure you're not shooting a 0:58:07.160 --> 0:58:09.600 cub or the wrong bear. Well, then we look at 0:58:09.600 --> 0:58:11.920 baiting of servants, which is a very hot topic with 0:58:12.040 --> 0:58:14.720 c w D. You could make a very strong argument 0:58:14.800 --> 0:58:17.000 right now in that case for servants, baiting may not 0:58:17.080 --> 0:58:20.080 be fair chase but as an overall practice for baiting, 0:58:20.200 --> 0:58:22.040 as it's done for bears, we say it is still 0:58:22.080 --> 0:58:24.560 a fair chase practice. Who is it? Like, you know, 0:58:25.920 --> 0:58:31.080 Teddy Roosevelt wasn't arguing about what to do about trail cams, 0:58:31.120 --> 0:58:34.520 like who who is it? Who is it? Who decides 0:58:35.120 --> 0:58:39.120 it's there for? For the overall club, there's the entire 0:58:39.240 --> 0:58:41.160 you know, it would go to the there's an ethics 0:58:41.160 --> 0:58:45.080 committee um for records. The records injury requirements for fair 0:58:45.160 --> 0:58:47.320 chase would be the records committee. It's a thirty two 0:58:47.320 --> 0:58:50.240 member committee. And they got to wrestle with emerging technologies, 0:58:50.920 --> 0:58:55.280 and we do constantly, uh have you have you addressed 0:58:55.360 --> 0:58:58.280 drones specifically or is that captured onto something else? So 0:58:58.640 --> 0:59:01.160 it was captured under something else again, it was it 0:59:01.240 --> 0:59:03.840 was transmitting images of live games to the hunter, because 0:59:03.840 --> 0:59:06.880 you can't run a drone without seeing the animal. We 0:59:06.960 --> 0:59:10.000 actually called out drones by name, and the interraffed David 0:59:13.000 --> 0:59:15.320 about I was going to say about eight years ago, 0:59:16.600 --> 0:59:18.680 eight or nine years ago when when it really got 0:59:19.160 --> 0:59:21.560 when he used to drones really kind of picked up pace. 0:59:21.800 --> 0:59:23.200 You know, people are using them for a lot of 0:59:23.200 --> 0:59:26.480 different things, and there they got to be pretty popular, 0:59:26.600 --> 0:59:28.920 and so we did call him out by name. And 0:59:28.960 --> 0:59:30.480 it might even been longer, might have been closer to 0:59:30.520 --> 0:59:33.000 ten years ago. It's been a while, yeah, but it was. 0:59:33.320 --> 0:59:35.760 We were getting asked by state agencies, what's your thoughts 0:59:35.760 --> 0:59:38.760 on drones and our answer would be, well, it's transmitting 0:59:38.760 --> 0:59:40.960 an image. But we got asked enough that to help 0:59:41.040 --> 0:59:43.480 the states were like, we will call it out by name. 0:59:43.560 --> 0:59:45.880 So there's no doubt that a drone usage to find 0:59:46.320 --> 0:59:49.160 the scout for or hunt game falls outside of fair chase. 0:59:49.240 --> 0:59:51.720 What you know, we would deem as the ethical pursuit 0:59:51.720 --> 0:59:57.360 of the animal that they can escape. Um. I gave 0:59:57.400 --> 0:59:59.680 you the big complaint that you get from hunters that 0:59:59.800 --> 1:00:03.160 there almost like similar. We're not not you know, it's 1:00:03.160 --> 1:00:04.480 not even fair as a complaint because it's just like 1:00:04.520 --> 1:00:09.280 a misunderstanding, but that that people will argue about their deductions, right, 1:00:09.480 --> 1:00:12.040 and people complain about that they felt the score should 1:00:12.040 --> 1:00:15.720 be higher, and like, well, you know those assholes seventy 1:00:15.760 --> 1:00:25.400 but I got um doug uh so Uh. The other 1:00:25.480 --> 1:00:29.360 thing is is I think that the numbers This isn't 1:00:29.400 --> 1:00:32.440 even a criticism that comes from outside. It's like inside 1:00:32.440 --> 1:00:38.480 and outside hunting. But people look at the fixation on numbers, right, 1:00:39.520 --> 1:00:42.840 and then and that people feel that that, uh, it's 1:00:43.280 --> 1:00:48.400 like that that's kind of this objectification of animals might 1:00:48.400 --> 1:00:51.600 not be a totally right word, but basically they're taking 1:00:51.600 --> 1:00:54.760 this sort of like living, this beautiful living thing that 1:00:54.880 --> 1:00:57.640 has a lot of um. There's you know, a huge 1:00:57.640 --> 1:01:01.120 amount of cultural pride that we take that that that 1:01:01.200 --> 1:01:04.520 we have these animals around us, and we generally Americans 1:01:04.560 --> 1:01:09.080 like generally recognize them as gorgeous, were generally supportive of 1:01:09.240 --> 1:01:12.840 their existence here. There's a lot of like reverence for them. 1:01:12.920 --> 1:01:16.000 And people feel that when you boil it down and 1:01:16.080 --> 1:01:18.600 just take the deer and turn it into a number, 1:01:20.440 --> 1:01:23.760 that it's something that something gets lost. And so you'll 1:01:23.800 --> 1:01:25.640 hear hunters say this, and a lot of times like 1:01:25.760 --> 1:01:30.880 newer hunters, um, we'll be prickly about it because they're 1:01:30.920 --> 1:01:33.200 excited to get a deer and I think, like a 1:01:33.240 --> 1:01:35.800 deer if I just get be so happy. And they 1:01:35.880 --> 1:01:38.120 learned that there's kind of like this, Oh, it was 1:01:38.240 --> 1:01:40.960 just a blank and should never be that? Why and 1:01:41.120 --> 1:01:43.960 even we recognize it should never be that And you 1:01:44.000 --> 1:01:46.960 mentioned to it earlier, it's simply a tool that we've 1:01:47.040 --> 1:01:49.960 created and it's kind of been I don't know, bastardized. 1:01:50.120 --> 1:01:51.680 I don't think, I don't, but I don't think it's 1:01:51.680 --> 1:01:53.880 your I don't know that it's your not I don't 1:01:53.920 --> 1:01:56.320 think it's your fault at all. But it's a thing. 1:01:56.560 --> 1:02:00.240 And then but people know it's the Boon and Crockett score. Yeah, 1:02:00.760 --> 1:02:03.720 so you get right, Yeah, yeah, you probably hear about 1:02:03.720 --> 1:02:06.400 it all the time. Yeah, and yeah, i'd argue that 1:02:06.480 --> 1:02:08.200 if you know, if you if you adduce it to 1:02:08.280 --> 1:02:11.280 any single component, it's inappropriate. Well, it's about you again, 1:02:11.320 --> 1:02:13.640 it's just about the animal. You should never just kill 1:02:13.680 --> 1:02:16.400 an animal just because of a number. That's ridiculous. You 1:02:16.480 --> 1:02:19.200 never adduce it to that. Honestly, if you don't care 1:02:19.200 --> 1:02:22.280 about regulations anything, you're just shooting something for only meat, 1:02:22.320 --> 1:02:24.160 and you don't care about the experience and the laws. 1:02:24.240 --> 1:02:27.000 That's wrong. It's the whole experience. You enjoy the meat, 1:02:27.080 --> 1:02:29.560 You enjoy them ount, you enjoy the number, how it 1:02:29.680 --> 1:02:32.600 how it affects the biologic data. Make sure that that's 1:02:32.640 --> 1:02:34.640 still there. It's just another piece of it. You should 1:02:34.680 --> 1:02:37.400 never make a hunt about one thing. It's about the 1:02:37.440 --> 1:02:41.760 whole experience and the animal and everything that animal is UM. 1:02:41.880 --> 1:02:45.040 I know you guys have some thoughts about how the 1:02:45.240 --> 1:02:52.200 the evolution of the term trophy hunting, that that it's 1:02:52.640 --> 1:02:57.960 you know, each generation kind of defines it for whatever 1:02:58.040 --> 1:03:01.920 to to, you know, defines for their moment. How has 1:03:01.960 --> 1:03:06.400 that drifted? So I can answer a little bit of 1:03:06.400 --> 1:03:09.000 that because I have been in the space and as 1:03:09.000 --> 1:03:12.560 I mentioned before, I started in the space as a 1:03:12.600 --> 1:03:16.560 film producer, UM, and that was the eighties and at 1:03:16.600 --> 1:03:19.000 that time there's only four of us that we're doing 1:03:19.040 --> 1:03:22.200 that type of thing. And UM, you know, if you 1:03:22.280 --> 1:03:24.480 turn the clock back of ways to the days of 1:03:24.800 --> 1:03:28.160 Kirk Gouty, an American sportsman, you know, those were days 1:03:28.200 --> 1:03:32.600 when um, you know, it was all about hunting. And 1:03:32.640 --> 1:03:34.680 then in the in the eighties and the nineties what 1:03:34.880 --> 1:03:40.520 started happening was as my um, the business I was in, 1:03:41.040 --> 1:03:44.360 there was more and more video producers that started getting 1:03:44.360 --> 1:03:47.680 into the game. You know. My feelings were always you know, 1:03:47.720 --> 1:03:50.600 they told the story, they stole a story about you know, 1:03:50.760 --> 1:03:53.320 where the animal lived, what the animal eight. You know, 1:03:53.560 --> 1:03:57.280 we didn't always get an animal, um, but if we did, 1:03:57.280 --> 1:04:01.080 it was always underfair chase. But later in the in 1:04:01.120 --> 1:04:03.320 the late eighties and the early nineties, as more and 1:04:03.360 --> 1:04:05.440 more of these folks started getting into the business, it's 1:04:05.480 --> 1:04:08.280 all became about to kill. How many kills do you 1:04:08.320 --> 1:04:10.800 have in your tape? I'd have idn't actually have distributors 1:04:10.800 --> 1:04:15.320 asked me that questions. And that was prior, prior to um, 1:04:15.360 --> 1:04:18.160 you know, the outdoor network to determine if it was 1:04:18.200 --> 1:04:21.080 good or not exactly, because that's what they were selling 1:04:21.080 --> 1:04:23.960 it on. So all of a sudden and and and 1:04:24.240 --> 1:04:27.600 the term trophy then became starting to get really polluted 1:04:27.680 --> 1:04:30.360 because they did your what you're talking about with the 1:04:30.440 --> 1:04:33.040 numbers thing. You know, the bigger the better, You're not 1:04:33.440 --> 1:04:35.600 worth squad if you don't kill a big, big animal 1:04:35.640 --> 1:04:41.480 with big horns or handlers and so um. So it 1:04:41.520 --> 1:04:43.520 went from the hunting days of Kirk Guity to the 1:04:43.600 --> 1:04:48.520 killing days of the eighties and nineties, and it really 1:04:48.840 --> 1:04:54.840 got the term trophy a black eye. Um. And I 1:04:54.880 --> 1:04:57.160 think the media drove that. I mean, if you look 1:04:57.160 --> 1:05:00.240 at our outdoor programming now, for the most part, on 1:05:00.240 --> 1:05:02.720 our outdoor networks, there's still a lot of whack them 1:05:02.720 --> 1:05:05.280 and stack and stuff going on in those networks. And 1:05:05.400 --> 1:05:07.480 I think that's not a tribute to the animal. I 1:05:07.480 --> 1:05:09.400 don't think it's a tribute to our sport of hunting. 1:05:09.840 --> 1:05:12.760 I don't think you should really call it hunting, say, media, 1:05:12.800 --> 1:05:15.040 you're talking about our own media. I'm talking about our 1:05:15.040 --> 1:05:18.800 outdoor media, you know. And I think that what I 1:05:18.840 --> 1:05:22.960 see now, uh though, is I see hope in the 1:05:23.000 --> 1:05:26.680 fact that I think, you know, programs like yours for example, 1:05:26.880 --> 1:05:28.840 you know, you're talking about these things, and you're talking 1:05:28.880 --> 1:05:32.080 about and you're going to see a migration back now 1:05:32.240 --> 1:05:34.400 from the kill to the hunt and what it really means. 1:05:34.680 --> 1:05:38.440 And you know, the local war movement, you know, consuming 1:05:38.480 --> 1:05:42.400 those animals. Um. Where does your me come from? Um? 1:05:42.480 --> 1:05:45.439 And you know, so I think that there's there's there. 1:05:45.440 --> 1:05:47.560 You know, we're starting a course correction there in a 1:05:47.600 --> 1:05:52.200 positive way. UM. But I think that's really happened to trophy. 1:05:52.240 --> 1:05:56.000 It was. It was hyped so much in outdoor in 1:05:56.040 --> 1:05:58.720 the outdoor media there for twenty years that it just 1:05:58.800 --> 1:06:00.760 kind of took a left turn and now we gotta 1:06:00.760 --> 1:06:05.080 get it on the right turn again. It's amazing how um, 1:06:05.160 --> 1:06:09.520 how universal not in honey media, but how universal in 1:06:09.520 --> 1:06:16.360 the mainstream media, how universal um of a condemnation trophy 1:06:16.400 --> 1:06:20.520 hunting is. It's like if you use that you don't 1:06:20.520 --> 1:06:24.080 even need to say anything else. No, you don't. It's 1:06:24.080 --> 1:06:27.440 like if you see an article trophy hunter, like you 1:06:27.480 --> 1:06:29.600 don't need to read the rest of the headline even 1:06:30.400 --> 1:06:34.120 you know that it is bad. We talked about this recently, 1:06:34.120 --> 1:06:40.280 whereas there's a fundraiser that uh Don Jr. Was going 1:06:40.360 --> 1:06:43.800 on for blacktail Deer in Ducks. Okay, so when I 1:06:43.800 --> 1:06:46.320 hear blacktail deer in Ducks, I don't jump into my 1:06:46.360 --> 1:06:49.440 head like it doesn't sound to me like an evil 1:06:49.520 --> 1:06:52.600 trophy hunting adventure. But when describing to new As it 1:06:52.680 --> 1:06:57.440 was leading a trophy hunt, and you have to say, well, 1:06:57.440 --> 1:06:59.560 i'd have to know a lot more. I don't really 1:06:59.560 --> 1:07:01.560 know that that what they're doing. It just seems like 1:07:01.560 --> 1:07:03.280 they're going hunting deer and ducks, Like how do we 1:07:03.320 --> 1:07:05.200 know that? But someone's like, I know how to make 1:07:05.240 --> 1:07:07.760 this seem real bad. I will just use the word 1:07:07.800 --> 1:07:10.240 trophy and then everyone will know that. I mean, it's 1:07:10.280 --> 1:07:12.760 real bad. I don't know that you're gonna save that work. 1:07:13.600 --> 1:07:16.560 The term trophy was never intended to be bad um, 1:07:18.000 --> 1:07:20.160 but unfortunately it has become that way. And I don't 1:07:20.160 --> 1:07:23.000 think it's salvageable. It's it's just a term that has 1:07:23.040 --> 1:07:27.960 been beat up so bad and misrepresented um by you know, 1:07:28.440 --> 1:07:31.520 the media, whether it's the outdoor media or the general 1:07:31.560 --> 1:07:35.520 mainstream media with the stories you're like you're talking about, um, 1:07:35.560 --> 1:07:38.880 you know, we need to find some other description for these, 1:07:39.520 --> 1:07:42.480 for the for the for the mature mail specims that 1:07:42.520 --> 1:07:45.640 we're taking out of these ecosystems. Yeah, I do. I 1:07:45.720 --> 1:07:47.600 was just gonna say that. I feel like some reading 1:07:47.920 --> 1:07:51.880 Jack O'Connor stuff, I always had the idea that like 1:07:51.960 --> 1:07:57.320 trophy and then the head or the mount were interchangeable, 1:07:57.640 --> 1:08:00.400 they were synonymous, and that's how that that how where 1:08:00.520 --> 1:08:02.520 where how they used trophy? Did you would you guys 1:08:02.560 --> 1:08:06.560 agree you just want the head? No, no, not that 1:08:06.600 --> 1:08:09.040 you just wanted to head. But that's just like what 1:08:09.200 --> 1:08:12.760 that piece of the animal was referred to as. Yeah, 1:08:13.240 --> 1:08:16.679 that is yeah. You know. I ran into a guy 1:08:16.720 --> 1:08:18.240 one time I was l COHNT ran into a guy 1:08:18.240 --> 1:08:19.920 on the trail. He's actually a radio I don't want 1:08:19.960 --> 1:08:22.880 to say his name. He's a radio host. And I 1:08:22.920 --> 1:08:24.600 was talking to him like that's where I was like, 1:08:24.600 --> 1:08:27.479 holy shit, you're but anyways, he was talking about a 1:08:27.479 --> 1:08:31.639 gun and he said he's taken thirty head, which sounds 1:08:31.640 --> 1:08:36.439 like livestock I think of, but yeah, like thirty trophies. Sure, 1:08:37.200 --> 1:08:39.800 And again it wasn't a negative connotation back then. It 1:08:39.880 --> 1:08:42.320 was just like that was like like they had an 1:08:42.360 --> 1:08:45.840 animal down and there were many different parts of it, 1:08:46.520 --> 1:08:49.240 and then like the head was you could say it's 1:08:49.280 --> 1:08:52.200 called it was just also referred to as the trophy. 1:08:52.280 --> 1:08:56.280 Like I'll grab the back quarter, you grab the trophy. Yeah. Yeah, 1:08:56.720 --> 1:08:58.840 they had all their trophies with them. Yeah. It came 1:08:58.880 --> 1:09:04.120 along with I've I haven't abandoned. I have not abandoned 1:09:04.160 --> 1:09:05.640 the word. And I try to help it out a 1:09:05.680 --> 1:09:09.439 little bit when I can, because, um, it's funny because 1:09:09.600 --> 1:09:11.519 uh and talking to people, like talking to people who 1:09:11.560 --> 1:09:14.920 are sort of kicking the tires on hunting or you know, 1:09:15.520 --> 1:09:17.640 curious about hunting, They'll they'll really want to push you 1:09:17.720 --> 1:09:21.519 right away. They'll be like, well, you're not like trophy hunter. 1:09:22.920 --> 1:09:26.960 I'll be like, well easy now, because I am. You know, 1:09:27.040 --> 1:09:28.760 I'm a lot of things. And one of the things 1:09:28.800 --> 1:09:30.719 I am is I have a lot of this ship 1:09:30.800 --> 1:09:32.720 laying around my house and I really like it a lot. 1:09:33.560 --> 1:09:34.880 And so I don't know what you call it, what 1:09:34.920 --> 1:09:37.080 you want to call it. But like if I get 1:09:37.080 --> 1:09:40.559 a big deer, any deer, If I get a deer, 1:09:40.880 --> 1:09:43.120 I want the head. I'm never gonna get rid of it. 1:09:43.160 --> 1:09:45.559 I've never gotten rid of one, unless I like lent 1:09:45.640 --> 1:09:47.320 one to a friend because he thought it's cool to 1:09:47.360 --> 1:09:49.280 have in his house. I've never gotten rid of one 1:09:49.280 --> 1:09:53.920 of my life. So I don't you know this idea, 1:09:53.960 --> 1:09:55.720 and some people like overdo or they tried to like, 1:09:55.760 --> 1:09:58.800 I don't even remove the head from the woods. I'm like, dude, 1:09:59.200 --> 1:10:01.559 now you're just like you're trying to make a comment 1:10:01.600 --> 1:10:04.120 on things, and it's just ridiculous, Like you would want 1:10:04.160 --> 1:10:06.800 it and you would have it in your house, but 1:10:07.880 --> 1:10:10.600 because other people view there's in the way that you 1:10:10.600 --> 1:10:13.880 don't find acceptable, you will now sacrifice by leaving yours 1:10:13.880 --> 1:10:16.200 in the woods in order to have like make turn 1:10:16.240 --> 1:10:19.520 this into like social commentary. One it should be remembrance 1:10:19.520 --> 1:10:22.960 of your hunt. I mean, I look at my hanging 1:10:23.000 --> 1:10:25.639 in my you know, in my house, and I remember 1:10:25.680 --> 1:10:29.240 every single one of those. Yeah, it's a trophy. I'm 1:10:29.280 --> 1:10:31.080 all four onto something different. I don't know what the 1:10:31.120 --> 1:10:33.559 hell you're gonna call it mementos. I don't know mentos. 1:10:33.640 --> 1:10:38.080 My kids would think mentos in a shadow box. Yeah, 1:10:38.120 --> 1:10:41.040 I love it, so I haven't like walked away from it. 1:10:41.120 --> 1:10:43.599 But I know that it takes a lot of explaining either. 1:10:43.640 --> 1:10:45.559 If you explain it like that, people like, oh, yeah, 1:10:45.600 --> 1:10:48.400 I get that right, Like I don't know. It's like 1:10:48.439 --> 1:10:51.960 I like all of it. I eat all the meat whatever, 1:10:52.000 --> 1:10:54.320 I give the damn bones and my dog. I put 1:10:54.320 --> 1:10:56.880 the antlers on my shelf, like I take the whole thing. 1:10:59.360 --> 1:11:02.679 I like it all. And I found a nice like, um, well, 1:11:02.720 --> 1:11:06.800 benefit from doing some so called trophy hunting. I caught 1:11:06.840 --> 1:11:08.720 a little bit of slack four on that video we 1:11:08.800 --> 1:11:10.800 posted that meta your Hunts where I was hunting elk 1:11:10.840 --> 1:11:13.400 in Colorado at a tag that way to you know, 1:11:13.520 --> 1:11:16.400 fourteen fifteen years to hunt. But I could have very 1:11:16.439 --> 1:11:19.920 easily filled that tag opening morning and just shot a bowl. 1:11:20.360 --> 1:11:22.479 But the older I get, man, I want to hunt. 1:11:22.560 --> 1:11:24.680 I remember like older clients in mine when I was 1:11:24.720 --> 1:11:27.120 a hunting guy, they should tell me that, Like, man, 1:11:27.200 --> 1:11:29.439 my perfect season will be if I can kill one 1:11:29.479 --> 1:11:32.360 on the last evening of the last day of Pennsylvania's 1:11:32.400 --> 1:11:34.040 deer season. You don't want to sit in my tree 1:11:34.080 --> 1:11:37.479 stand like sixty days. And I kind of as a 1:11:37.560 --> 1:11:39.880 mid twenty year old, like I didn't really get it, 1:11:40.000 --> 1:11:42.640 But now at forty two, I'm like, oh yeah, I 1:11:42.680 --> 1:11:45.280 get it. I want to hunt every single moment that 1:11:45.360 --> 1:11:47.760 I have opened to hunt and then hopefully kill on 1:11:47.840 --> 1:11:51.080 the last day. And if you're looking for something, you know, 1:11:51.439 --> 1:11:53.320 a trophies festivalor however you want to put it, a 1:11:53.320 --> 1:11:57.200 bigger buck, it's it helps you do that, right, unless 1:11:57.200 --> 1:11:59.160 you can get lucky, But most of the time you're 1:11:59.160 --> 1:12:01.800 gonna end up hunting more. Yeah, there are a lot 1:12:01.800 --> 1:12:04.120 of trips that will be over instantaneously. And that's another 1:12:04.120 --> 1:12:08.000 funny thing, is like, so if you're super moral, uh, 1:12:08.160 --> 1:12:11.840 you shoot the first thing right away, like that's more 1:12:12.000 --> 1:12:15.160 moral than that. You wander around the hills for five 1:12:15.280 --> 1:12:19.320 days and then get one like you're you're less moral. 1:12:20.240 --> 1:12:23.600 It's just it's this heart. So when you see the 1:12:23.680 --> 1:12:28.639 word destroyed, he just man, just one of those things 1:12:28.640 --> 1:12:32.880 just makes you cringe. Well, you know I am. I 1:12:32.880 --> 1:12:36.000 grew up, you know, in a subsistence family, so I 1:12:36.040 --> 1:12:38.599 never had a beefsteak till I was sixteen years old. 1:12:38.640 --> 1:12:40.799 But I will tell you it is my perfect hunting 1:12:40.840 --> 1:12:43.880 season is when I draw a beat egg for a 1:12:43.920 --> 1:12:46.240 for a cow because I can run out, I can 1:12:46.280 --> 1:12:48.280 get the cow, and I can put the cow in 1:12:48.320 --> 1:12:50.160 the freezer and I have no I've got meat for 1:12:50.160 --> 1:12:52.840 the rest of the year, and then I can actually 1:12:52.880 --> 1:12:55.599 focus on Okay, I'm i a tag start picking that place, 1:12:55.640 --> 1:12:58.080 and I'm gonna start seeing if maybe I can be 1:12:58.160 --> 1:13:01.920 lucky enough to wander into something that is a respectable 1:13:02.560 --> 1:13:05.120 you know, but your male specimen. I have not gotten 1:13:05.160 --> 1:13:06.920 that lucky yet to get into the book, I will 1:13:06.920 --> 1:13:09.080 tell you that. But you know, you have to put 1:13:09.080 --> 1:13:12.840 yourself in there and just right, and you know there's 1:13:12.880 --> 1:13:15.559 no back door, but I but you know, I mean that, 1:13:15.720 --> 1:13:17.840 because then you do maybe you hunt the rest of 1:13:17.880 --> 1:13:20.000 the season and maybe you gets something, but maybe you don't. 1:13:20.040 --> 1:13:22.759 But it is all about being out in the woods 1:13:22.760 --> 1:13:25.519 and and and and the experience as much as anything else. 1:13:25.720 --> 1:13:29.280 For I think the majority of hunters um, you know. 1:13:29.439 --> 1:13:33.200 And I bet I think that the unfortunately the plagiarized 1:13:33.479 --> 1:13:36.400 you know, the trophy piece has been plagiarized, and they're 1:13:36.439 --> 1:13:38.320 not plagiarize is probably not the wrong word, but it's 1:13:38.360 --> 1:13:43.880 been misinterpreted and and and it's not um, it's not 1:13:43.920 --> 1:13:46.200 what it was originally intended to be. It happens to 1:13:46.200 --> 1:13:50.000 a lot of words though really you know, like now, um, 1:13:50.040 --> 1:13:54.080 there's a certain way you can throw an inflection on environmentalists, 1:13:54.840 --> 1:13:59.559 right and you're like, oh, you know an environmentalist like, oh, 1:13:59.680 --> 1:14:05.760 so someone who wants like major sort of overreach. They 1:14:05.840 --> 1:14:08.760 ruin all the good times. You know. It's like there's 1:14:08.760 --> 1:14:11.479 like words that just like you know, trophy hunting. But 1:14:11.560 --> 1:14:13.439 you can probably stay here list a dozen words that 1:14:13.479 --> 1:14:16.800 at one point in time had like a positive connotation, 1:14:16.840 --> 1:14:19.240 but then a version of it runs wild and it 1:14:19.320 --> 1:14:22.800 just starts to carry with it to the point where 1:14:22.800 --> 1:14:24.600 you have no one can self identify anymore as a 1:14:24.600 --> 1:14:29.000 trophy hunter. You gotta do a lot of backflips to 1:14:29.320 --> 1:14:40.880 in order to land there. You know, there's nothing I 1:14:40.920 --> 1:14:42.840 want to ask you guys about that We've we've talked 1:14:42.840 --> 1:14:47.160 about it at least a dozen times, so Buona Crockett Club. 1:14:47.160 --> 1:14:51.720 When you're looking at the animals that get submitted, um, 1:14:51.800 --> 1:14:53.960 you break the like you don't just break it up 1:14:54.000 --> 1:14:59.000 by species, but you break it up by uh geography 1:14:59.200 --> 1:15:04.000 in some cases, because there's sort of like not hard 1:15:04.080 --> 1:15:08.040 lines between things. Meaning the example we always bring up 1:15:08.080 --> 1:15:12.360 is it a deer in California. Say a deer can 1:15:13.040 --> 1:15:19.599 run across I five and become a different deer like, 1:15:19.880 --> 1:15:22.599 meaning he could be a record book deer on the 1:15:22.680 --> 1:15:24.960 west side, he could be a record book blacktail on 1:15:25.000 --> 1:15:28.639 the west side of I five. Should he run over 1:15:28.680 --> 1:15:31.560 to the east side of I five, he ceases to 1:15:31.640 --> 1:15:34.160 be a record book animal. We can actually look into 1:15:34.200 --> 1:15:37.120 that now, so we can have a DNA test done 1:15:37.160 --> 1:15:40.880 that will tell us what, you know, if that deer 1:15:40.960 --> 1:15:44.360 is a blacktail or mulean deer. Has that come up yet? 1:15:44.600 --> 1:15:46.800 Oh yeah, yeah, we have. We probably have what about 1:15:46.840 --> 1:15:50.599 two dozen deer right now that are getting DNA because 1:15:50.640 --> 1:15:52.640 of that. And so what what you're touching on there 1:15:52.680 --> 1:15:54.599 is if you look at the blacktail range from Washington, 1:15:54.600 --> 1:15:58.760 Columbia blacktail Washington, Oregon, California, the southern end of the California, 1:15:58.800 --> 1:16:01.320 we get down to the California, it wasn't a definitive line, 1:16:01.680 --> 1:16:04.640 whereas that the peak of the Cascades served as a 1:16:04.680 --> 1:16:08.440 definitive line between mule deer and blacktail, so that historically 1:16:08.520 --> 1:16:11.479 was not crossable, which created this speciation where there was 1:16:11.520 --> 1:16:14.840 as particular Columbia as there well south of that line, 1:16:15.439 --> 1:16:18.519 there's no definitive. They can't get over the cascades type thing. 1:16:18.960 --> 1:16:21.320 So it's a mixing, that's what's going on there. It's 1:16:21.360 --> 1:16:26.080 just that the severe, the severe high altitude spine of 1:16:26.160 --> 1:16:29.640 that range isn't separating blacktails and mule, where historically with 1:16:29.720 --> 1:16:33.800 different climate conditions it would have. Okay, and so they 1:16:33.800 --> 1:16:35.800 can So you get down south of that range and 1:16:35.800 --> 1:16:37.880 they can slip back and forth. And what what we've 1:16:37.920 --> 1:16:40.599 shown if you look in Oregon are our blacktail boundary 1:16:41.000 --> 1:16:42.840 is the forest service line. So we pulled it off 1:16:42.880 --> 1:16:46.120 the top of the range. We made it conservative so 1:16:46.200 --> 1:16:49.240 there wouldn't be a potential crossover. So now that they 1:16:49.280 --> 1:16:52.439 identified the loci that are unique to blacktail and mule there, 1:16:52.880 --> 1:16:55.240 we can take a deer kill just over the border 1:16:55.280 --> 1:16:57.800 to the east and say, sure enough, it has all 1:16:57.800 --> 1:17:01.120 the traits of a blacktail. Let's run the genetic genetics 1:17:01.120 --> 1:17:03.879 on it and see and if it comes back pure blacktail, 1:17:03.920 --> 1:17:06.559 we will accept it in the category. Who pays for that? 1:17:06.960 --> 1:17:09.840 The hunter does. If if we have a question on something, 1:17:09.840 --> 1:17:12.240 if we're not like if it's a top end or whatever, 1:17:12.280 --> 1:17:14.400 and we're doing it to preserve the records, will pay 1:17:14.439 --> 1:17:16.960 for it. But if somebody says, I shot this deer. 1:17:16.960 --> 1:17:18.519 It doesn't make your book, but I know it's a 1:17:18.560 --> 1:17:21.880 blacktail taken east of your boundary. I can now say, okay, 1:17:21.880 --> 1:17:23.760 well a hundred and thirty bucks, and once I get 1:17:23.800 --> 1:17:25.719 ten samples and I can run it for that cost, 1:17:26.280 --> 1:17:28.200 send me your DNA sample, and then we can come 1:17:28.200 --> 1:17:31.280 back and say, divinitively, here's your cue value, a que 1:17:31.360 --> 1:17:35.240 value of point nine or highers pure blacktail. Really, and 1:17:35.240 --> 1:17:37.120 you've got two dozen right now that people want to 1:17:37.200 --> 1:17:40.000 challenge that. Man, See, our stuff is all out of date. 1:17:40.000 --> 1:17:41.559 Can we talk about that that? This is my favorite 1:17:41.560 --> 1:17:46.360 thing to talk about. The five dear thing man. The 1:17:46.400 --> 1:17:50.000 I five boundary is actually Roosevelt's elk, and there's no 1:17:50.080 --> 1:17:53.200 genetic variation between a Roosevelt and the Rocky. It's completely 1:17:53.200 --> 1:17:56.160 habitat driven. So then it was just an arbitrary line 1:17:56.160 --> 1:17:58.360 that has to be easily defiable, which is I five. 1:17:58.800 --> 1:18:01.120 The other one that's really kind of embarrassing is the 1:18:01.120 --> 1:18:04.760 Canadian moose stop at the Canadian border and become what 1:18:05.280 --> 1:18:09.360 sheriffs in the Rockies. Yeah, I got you, but what 1:18:09.400 --> 1:18:11.880 about like in Maine and now those are all Canadians. Okay, 1:18:12.760 --> 1:18:14.760 So if you really so, there is a there is 1:18:14.800 --> 1:18:18.160 a hard line there Canadian moose and shiras they can 1:18:18.240 --> 1:18:20.519 change back. They probably like the border too, because I 1:18:20.520 --> 1:18:23.160 think it's cut so it's got a good young growth 1:18:23.200 --> 1:18:25.760 on it. Well, then you have the bears in Alaska. 1:18:26.040 --> 1:18:29.439 I've had them, like a brown bear, grizzly bear. I've 1:18:29.439 --> 1:18:32.880 had that come down to yards. No, yeah, yeah, yeah, 1:18:32.920 --> 1:18:35.800 we'll get a GPS location. I've literally had to come 1:18:35.800 --> 1:18:38.400 down to yards. I'm on Google Earth and I've got 1:18:38.479 --> 1:18:41.760 everything up and I've got the coordinates punched in our 1:18:41.880 --> 1:18:44.960 line runs. Because what is referring to here is that 1:18:45.400 --> 1:18:49.800 you have barren ground. So grizzly bear. Yeah, in Alaska, 1:18:49.960 --> 1:18:52.240 like you know in the Rockies ere everybody says grizzly 1:18:52.280 --> 1:18:55.280 bearon and but a grizzly bear or brown bear are 1:18:55.520 --> 1:18:58.360 If you went to a taxono, Mr geneticist, they would 1:18:58.400 --> 1:19:00.840 tell you that grizzly bears and brown bears is the 1:19:00.840 --> 1:19:06.360 same thing. Brown bears have some coloration differences, tend to 1:19:06.400 --> 1:19:10.479 get much bigger. Um. Grizzly bears tend to have like 1:19:10.840 --> 1:19:15.720 lighter colors, more pellage, uh, you know, greater differences in 1:19:15.760 --> 1:19:19.439 hair color all kinds of things, Um, not nearly as 1:19:19.479 --> 1:19:21.840 big and in some ways, like a lot of guys 1:19:21.880 --> 1:19:25.280 in Alaska will tell you, if it has access to salmon, 1:19:25.880 --> 1:19:28.439 we called a brown bear, If it doesn't have access 1:19:28.439 --> 1:19:31.639 to salmon, we called a grizzly. But how do you guys, 1:19:32.840 --> 1:19:34.880 so a lot did you draw line? We did? Yeah, 1:19:34.960 --> 1:19:37.439 So it's it's kind of the Alaska Range curling up 1:19:37.479 --> 1:19:40.719 around the spine of the Alaska Rare until it hits 1:19:40.880 --> 1:19:46.679 one of the longitude lines. So the north the north 1:19:46.960 --> 1:19:50.080 edge of the Alaska Ranges of Grizzly, the south face 1:19:50.120 --> 1:19:52.400 of the Alaska Ranges of brown Bear. Correct, And I've 1:19:52.400 --> 1:19:55.000 had that come down to yards on that range line. 1:19:55.600 --> 1:19:57.519 So what what it is is you follow the Alaska 1:19:57.600 --> 1:19:59.800 Range around there's one spot that it's a straight line 1:19:59.840 --> 1:20:02.680 like Mount Elias I believe, is it, And then it 1:20:02.720 --> 1:20:05.240 goes a straight line across, then hits the Alaska Range 1:20:05.240 --> 1:20:07.559 and follows the peak of the Alaska Range, and then 1:20:07.600 --> 1:20:09.479 once you reach a certain point, then it follows the 1:20:09.560 --> 1:20:13.240 longitude out to the coast. I'm guessing again this was 1:20:13.479 --> 1:20:16.839 the fifties, so I was not around. Um, they probably 1:20:16.840 --> 1:20:18.880 were going with the salmon thing because that's what I've heard. 1:20:18.960 --> 1:20:21.920 If it's got access to you know, a big salmon run, 1:20:21.920 --> 1:20:23.839 it's a brown bear. If it doesn't, it's a grizzly. 1:20:24.320 --> 1:20:26.559 So it would make sense that salmon couldn't cross that 1:20:26.600 --> 1:20:29.080 Alaska range and you got the Yukon to the north. 1:20:29.680 --> 1:20:32.240 But I think that's probably what they were trying to do, 1:20:32.360 --> 1:20:35.599 is that differentiation. They were set down and said, where 1:20:35.640 --> 1:20:38.639 is that line that's the most easily definable that hunters 1:20:38.640 --> 1:20:41.880 will understand and makes sense for separating these out so 1:20:41.920 --> 1:20:44.759 that you can But you know, bears is the worst 1:20:44.760 --> 1:20:47.280 because all the biggest grizzly bears are killed right on 1:20:47.320 --> 1:20:49.280 the line that we're probably a brown bear last week. 1:20:49.479 --> 1:20:52.400 So the the yeah, so the let me guess that 1:20:52.800 --> 1:20:55.400 the one you're looking at is a guy that feels 1:20:55.439 --> 1:20:59.920 he killed a tanker grizzly and you're like, well, may 1:21:00.040 --> 1:21:04.280 it's just a small brown bear where exactly yeah, yeah, 1:21:04.600 --> 1:21:07.719 or yeah. So all the biggest grizzlies come from the line, 1:21:08.360 --> 1:21:11.960 not all of them, but it's it's a larger portion 1:21:12.040 --> 1:21:14.120 of them. You kind of know where a big grizzlies 1:21:14.160 --> 1:21:16.600 going to be from when you get an entry, is 1:21:16.600 --> 1:21:23.680 that right? Huh? What other ones are like that, So 1:21:23.760 --> 1:21:26.320 the moose, the grizzlies, the moose don't seem to follow 1:21:26.400 --> 1:21:28.920 the Colorado is blowing the doors off a shiris moose 1:21:29.680 --> 1:21:33.120 you think would be northern Montana, it's not. Washington does well, 1:21:33.160 --> 1:21:35.680 but so that one. You know, you think that just 1:21:35.800 --> 1:21:38.200 over the Canadian border would be the place to hunt shiris, 1:21:38.200 --> 1:21:43.160 but the answer is Colorado. Um. You know blacktail the 1:21:43.320 --> 1:21:47.519 California area, there's actually a little bit genetic differentiation. So 1:21:47.800 --> 1:21:50.120 even though that they do potentially have some mulder, it's 1:21:50.120 --> 1:21:52.760 actually different black tails with the biggest black tails or 1:21:53.080 --> 1:21:55.880 northern California in southern Oregon. The further north you get, 1:21:56.240 --> 1:21:58.000 they almost look more like a sit Ka than they 1:21:58.040 --> 1:22:01.400 really do. Uh, you know what you consider a Columbia 1:22:01.680 --> 1:22:05.200 and so you know those are Columbia black tails. Yeah, 1:22:05.200 --> 1:22:07.240 there's big ones that show up in Washington and Oregon. 1:22:07.840 --> 1:22:09.519 We haven't seen a lot of real big deer in 1:22:09.520 --> 1:22:11.880 Oregon since the fires of like the sixties when there 1:22:11.960 --> 1:22:15.280 was some major stand clearing fires. The years following that 1:22:15.360 --> 1:22:18.679 we saw some gigantic black tails. We haven't seen that, 1:22:19.080 --> 1:22:23.320 but that you know, Jackson County Applegate type country down 1:22:23.360 --> 1:22:25.920 there that still puts out some big ones in northern California. 1:22:26.600 --> 1:22:29.880 If someone wanted to, uh, what's the quickest way to 1:22:29.880 --> 1:22:32.479 get in the books? What should you be hunting for? 1:22:32.520 --> 1:22:35.040 If you want to get in the books? White tails 1:22:35.120 --> 1:22:38.559 is tough, man real dere is tough off of like 1:22:38.720 --> 1:22:41.880 rough population estimates and whatnot. I kind of calculated out, 1:22:41.920 --> 1:22:43.360 you know, how many do you have to look at 1:22:43.400 --> 1:22:46.439 to find a booner and white tails? Like a hundred 1:22:46.479 --> 1:22:48.479 and eighty thousand white tails you have to look at 1:22:48.560 --> 1:22:53.360 to find one that's and again this is all, but 1:22:54.560 --> 1:22:56.920 usually one in a thousand is kind of what you 1:22:57.280 --> 1:23:00.720 what you think? Um Shires move mouse and most of 1:23:00.720 --> 1:23:04.360 their ranges forty inches wide and split brows will get 1:23:04.400 --> 1:23:06.680 you to the minimum. And I feel like if you 1:23:06.680 --> 1:23:09.240 can get a shire's tag, you could set your sights 1:23:09.240 --> 1:23:11.640 at BNC and have a decent chance at it. So 1:23:11.680 --> 1:23:14.280 you gotta look at how many to find one. I 1:23:14.320 --> 1:23:16.080 don't remember what that one is off the top of 1:23:16.120 --> 1:23:19.600 my head, say split browns just to brow times. The 1:23:19.600 --> 1:23:22.439 way our scoring works is you terminate the measurement on 1:23:22.479 --> 1:23:25.160 the on a moose palm between two qualifying points on 1:23:25.160 --> 1:23:27.840 a brow if it does not have a qualifying point 1:23:27.880 --> 1:23:29.280 on a brow. It just comes to the end of 1:23:29.320 --> 1:23:32.479 the palm. So if you want the mature moose have 1:23:32.520 --> 1:23:35.080 a split brow. So that's a characteristic. If you want 1:23:35.080 --> 1:23:37.840 to a good score, your moose has to have split 1:23:37.920 --> 1:23:40.760 brows are better. But if it's forty wide with a 1:23:40.800 --> 1:23:43.280 split brow, that generally will put you at minimum score. 1:23:43.439 --> 1:23:46.720 So that wants to be a two point brow, and 1:23:46.760 --> 1:23:48.560 that'll split down towards the end, So I'll give you 1:23:48.600 --> 1:23:51.840 a little bit more length and increase your score. So 1:23:52.439 --> 1:23:58.639 is it one in twenty? You gotta look at judging 1:23:58.680 --> 1:24:00.360 from the people I know that have had mo stech, 1:24:00.479 --> 1:24:03.880 yeah or less. Like you find a mature bullets, it's 1:24:03.960 --> 1:24:06.479 pretty pretty good. And I mean maybe it's not true 1:24:06.479 --> 1:24:08.919 and Wyoming or some other states, but my limited experience 1:24:08.920 --> 1:24:11.920 with schyris yeah, forty inches and split brow is just 1:24:11.960 --> 1:24:16.320 a good solid bull. You know. Um, earlier we were talking, 1:24:16.360 --> 1:24:20.479 you mentioned an interesting case where you've had Yeah, because 1:24:21.320 --> 1:24:25.000 uh Nanny's mountain goats. So males and females are very 1:24:25.080 --> 1:24:30.040 very similar horns. The females I have sort of like 1:24:30.080 --> 1:24:32.920 a little dog leg like almost like imperceptible little dog 1:24:33.000 --> 1:24:35.960 leg in them when they come up narrower. But you've 1:24:36.000 --> 1:24:39.599 had a female, you had a female mountain goat make 1:24:39.640 --> 1:24:43.000 the books. Yeah, we we got a fifty picture of 1:24:43.000 --> 1:24:45.559 fifty and I don't know if I officially dried. Yeah, 1:24:45.560 --> 1:24:47.120 I don't know that it's been entered yet, but we 1:24:47.200 --> 1:24:49.880 got preliminary pictures of it. And yeah, I mean things 1:24:49.880 --> 1:24:54.880 got I bet you eleven twelve inch horns. Yeah, I mean, 1:24:55.080 --> 1:24:58.200 well it's a Yeah, it's a name that grew insanely 1:24:58.200 --> 1:25:00.760 long horns. And not a lot of people they're shooting nanny, 1:25:00.880 --> 1:25:04.120 so there could be you know, a hundred book nanny's 1:25:04.160 --> 1:25:05.720 that just died of old age. You're still in the 1:25:06.200 --> 1:25:09.920 oh not not really. We get that too. You know, 1:25:09.960 --> 1:25:13.479 people always this the biggest ever. Well it's the largest 1:25:13.520 --> 1:25:15.720 ever taken in fair Chase that was then entered to 1:25:15.720 --> 1:25:18.400 Boone and Crockett. I mean, you know, so there could 1:25:18.439 --> 1:25:20.240 be bigger nannies out there, but we have seen one 1:25:20.280 --> 1:25:23.519 that made our our minimums. But it used to say 1:25:23.520 --> 1:25:26.040 on the score chart male or female. But after we 1:25:26.080 --> 1:25:27.800 had that on there for thirty years and never had 1:25:27.840 --> 1:25:30.519 a female, we did away with him. If here comes 1:25:30.520 --> 1:25:33.400 a female goat, hey, what is it? When? Uh? I 1:25:33.400 --> 1:25:35.479 gotta gripe too. I gotta bring up real quickly as 1:25:35.600 --> 1:25:37.280 you what I'm gonna ask. You know, my grape has 1:25:37.320 --> 1:25:41.160 to do with my halina. But I want you guys 1:25:41.200 --> 1:25:47.080 gonna explain what all time means. But I want to 1:25:47.080 --> 1:25:53.160 give so. I got a gigantic cavelina, I mean a 1:25:53.320 --> 1:25:57.240 giant I don't remember what it was. I measured it 1:25:57.439 --> 1:26:00.280 just like when you measure a bear, like it's length 1:26:00.360 --> 1:26:02.680 and linked fluss with very easy thing to measure. I 1:26:02.720 --> 1:26:05.559 measured my have Elena with my old man's I still 1:26:05.600 --> 1:26:08.400 have my old man's measuring calipers, and I still have 1:26:08.520 --> 1:26:12.840 his genuine I don't know, like nineteen ten. Uh, I 1:26:12.840 --> 1:26:16.880 don't know what that was, very old. Uh little tape 1:26:16.880 --> 1:26:21.960 measure with the pope and young Yeah they're emblem a 1:26:22.000 --> 1:26:25.240 little emblem on it, and his caliper and all that 1:26:25.280 --> 1:26:27.880 kind of garbage, the cable. I got a lot of stuff. 1:26:28.200 --> 1:26:32.280 But I measured my have Elena and then went to 1:26:32.360 --> 1:26:34.880 check and see if it was book. And you guys 1:26:34.960 --> 1:26:40.519 don't accept Havelna's now our our records committee hasn't hasn't 1:26:40.560 --> 1:26:42.720 taken that well. I mean they've taken it on, but 1:26:42.760 --> 1:26:45.680 they haven't decided yet to add that as a category, 1:26:45.880 --> 1:26:49.280 and gators either, right they had and gators not yet either. 1:26:50.240 --> 1:26:53.840 I had to go to your competitor, Safari Club. They're 1:26:55.600 --> 1:27:00.040 competitor there. They're another scoreing organization that I had to 1:27:00.120 --> 1:27:03.599 go there to validate that I had a giant alena. Yeah. 1:27:03.720 --> 1:27:05.960 So the the thing, the first thread the first time 1:27:05.960 --> 1:27:09.040 they looked at the havilina category. In order to have 1:27:09.120 --> 1:27:11.240 a category, the states that have them have to ask 1:27:11.320 --> 1:27:13.439 us and it has to be a managed species. And 1:27:13.520 --> 1:27:15.800 up until like four or five, maybe five or six 1:27:15.880 --> 1:27:19.679 years ago, now Texas did not manage havelina's. They switched 1:27:19.760 --> 1:27:22.240 over to where they actually do manage them now and 1:27:22.280 --> 1:27:24.559 so that was a big hang up. These were just 1:27:24.840 --> 1:27:27.200 kind of a shoot on site in Texas, So we 1:27:27.240 --> 1:27:30.280 can't really create a category form well in Texas, Arizona, 1:27:30.360 --> 1:27:34.040 New Mexico all now manage for him. That by visited 1:27:34.200 --> 1:27:36.559 and so it is being talked about at both Pope 1:27:36.560 --> 1:27:38.840 and Young and Boone and Crockett committee levels. Mines out 1:27:38.840 --> 1:27:42.519 of West Texas, West Tescas nice. So when you get it, 1:27:42.600 --> 1:27:45.600 let me know. I'm gonna run down with mine. I 1:27:45.680 --> 1:27:48.320 wanna be the first guy in the books. Man, I 1:27:48.439 --> 1:27:50.160 got one on the shelf too. That's gonna get give 1:27:50.160 --> 1:27:52.559 your run. I thinks between you and I will flip 1:27:52.600 --> 1:27:57.000 for it. Uh. And then so alligators alligator scenes like 1:27:57.360 --> 1:28:01.599 a stretch that again my understanding that discussion was before 1:28:01.640 --> 1:28:05.000 I was around, but that very rarely is one taken 1:28:05.000 --> 1:28:10.000 in fair chase. Oh ban, Yeah, how do you define? 1:28:10.160 --> 1:28:13.280 So you have to rewrite fair chase. I mean you're 1:28:13.280 --> 1:28:16.799 you're trapping him or you're catching them. It's a trapped animal. 1:28:17.479 --> 1:28:19.200 You know that. That's a good point. You have to 1:28:19.240 --> 1:28:20.840 kind of just go shoot it and run over and 1:28:20.840 --> 1:28:23.559 grab it right. You can put a hook into it, 1:28:23.600 --> 1:28:26.719 which at night we're using a spotlight, which is another. 1:28:26.880 --> 1:28:29.360 So you have to go out in the daytime cold 1:28:29.400 --> 1:28:32.040 cock it in the head with something and then retrieve 1:28:32.080 --> 1:28:34.200 it when you take a buddy you don't like with you. 1:28:35.280 --> 1:28:36.920 I got something that's good to Oh. That's a really 1:28:36.920 --> 1:28:38.439 good point, man, you have to do it take a 1:28:38.439 --> 1:28:41.439 lot of work to accept alligators, and there is there 1:28:41.520 --> 1:28:44.679 is my understanding, as you can in the alligator rut 1:28:44.720 --> 1:28:46.880 if that's what it's called, they will call him and 1:28:46.920 --> 1:28:48.240 you can get him in the day with a bow 1:28:48.400 --> 1:28:52.040 like on land. So there is a very rare situation. 1:28:52.120 --> 1:28:55.360 You could take a fair chase alligator by our standards now, 1:28:55.400 --> 1:28:58.680 but it wouldn't really justify a category. Yeah, I'm with you. 1:28:58.720 --> 1:29:03.120 Would this sample size be big enough to warrant a category. 1:29:03.280 --> 1:29:06.599 That's a good point. Uh, okay, here's the thing you're 1:29:06.600 --> 1:29:11.280 here too. I honestly don't know what this means. People 1:29:11.280 --> 1:29:16.559 will say that it made the all time every day 1:29:16.600 --> 1:29:20.320 of the week. Basically, what does that mean? The all 1:29:20.439 --> 1:29:23.240 time books and the not all times. So basically what 1:29:23.280 --> 1:29:25.880 had happened was is we created this measuring system in 1:29:27.360 --> 1:29:31.240 we didn't know at the time, you know, what that 1:29:31.280 --> 1:29:33.960 would look like, how many entries we would get, And 1:29:34.120 --> 1:29:38.280 so conservation came along. Wildlife populations were doing better, more 1:29:38.280 --> 1:29:42.519 people were harvesting mature animals, and so our record books 1:29:42.520 --> 1:29:45.400 started to grow. And now we're like, okay, we've got 1:29:45.439 --> 1:29:48.000 this data set that keeps growing. You know, what we're 1:29:48.040 --> 1:29:51.879 doing is working. We're getting to a point now where 1:29:52.920 --> 1:29:56.920 every six years we'd have to print encyclopedia and we 1:29:56.960 --> 1:30:00.400 know what happened to encyclopedias. No one's buying encyclopedias more, 1:30:01.040 --> 1:30:06.240 and so in order to sell this book, basically, in 1:30:06.320 --> 1:30:08.200 order to have a book that was manageable, that we 1:30:08.240 --> 1:30:11.320 could print people would buy at a reasonable price, we 1:30:11.400 --> 1:30:15.439 kind of had to create this other number um for 1:30:15.560 --> 1:30:19.880 that trophy to or for that to reach. And so 1:30:19.960 --> 1:30:23.719 basically it was just a way for the Yeah, yeah, 1:30:23.840 --> 1:30:26.880 it was just a way for us. It is. But 1:30:27.320 --> 1:30:31.200 any report. So if you know, one of our university 1:30:31.280 --> 1:30:33.840 programs comes to us or an agency comes to us 1:30:33.840 --> 1:30:37.720 and wants to know, you know, category wise, what are 1:30:37.720 --> 1:30:40.960 you guys seeing, it's always off that that entry score 1:30:41.600 --> 1:30:44.679 for white tail one sixty, you know, for pronghorn eighty, 1:30:44.720 --> 1:30:49.040 whatever the case may be. All our data is based 1:30:49.040 --> 1:30:52.479 off of that one sixty number. And so that that 1:30:52.640 --> 1:30:56.960 other number that we created was basically just a way 1:30:57.000 --> 1:31:02.920 for us to reasonably publish and sell a book. Uh So, 1:31:03.040 --> 1:31:05.360 if one sixty for a white tail makes the book, 1:31:05.840 --> 1:31:09.040 if it's archery, right, an we take any legal means 1:31:09.040 --> 1:31:13.240 the harvest does not separate it out. So one sixty 1:31:13.320 --> 1:31:16.840 makes the book, but what makes the all time? But 1:31:16.920 --> 1:31:20.600 again that's because we'd have if we won sixties identified 1:31:20.680 --> 1:31:23.280 as a top species that needs to be recorded, it 1:31:23.320 --> 1:31:25.880 isn't met our criteria. But we can't put all the 1:31:25.920 --> 1:31:29.160 one sixty plus is from the last eighty years in 1:31:29.240 --> 1:31:31.080 one book, so that's really where it came from. So 1:31:31.160 --> 1:31:33.559 we said, you know what, we're gonna made the year book. 1:31:33.720 --> 1:31:36.160 It's the Awards Book, which is a three year period. 1:31:36.520 --> 1:31:39.240 Everything entered in that three years goes in the Awards Book. 1:31:39.560 --> 1:31:41.519 And then we just have an arbitrary number that the 1:31:41.600 --> 1:31:44.479 very top of the top goes in this all time 1:31:44.479 --> 1:31:46.640 book once every six years, and people don't want to 1:31:46.680 --> 1:31:49.080 hear it, but it's currently one seventy. At the eight 1:31:49.080 --> 1:31:50.880 we're going that number is gonna be one eighty and 1:31:50.920 --> 1:31:54.439 the foreseeable future because well the one we just the 1:31:54.520 --> 1:31:57.000 last all Time book we did is now to volume. 1:31:57.720 --> 1:32:00.000 I'm getting to the point now we're getting so many 1:32:00.160 --> 1:32:02.160 entries that what we thought was going to keep it 1:32:02.200 --> 1:32:04.960 at a one volume book has now expanded, which is great. 1:32:05.000 --> 1:32:08.960 I mean, that's great that there's that many mature animals 1:32:09.000 --> 1:32:11.760 out there that are species are doing well. I mean, 1:32:11.760 --> 1:32:14.120 that's a good sign. I'd rather have that than trying 1:32:14.160 --> 1:32:17.120 to fill pages. Now, do you guys remember my earlier suggestion, 1:32:17.680 --> 1:32:19.639 I want to give you another one now? Okay, yeah, 1:32:19.640 --> 1:32:21.479 that the change in its slightly as we go forward, 1:32:22.280 --> 1:32:24.880 keep doing the old way, but then right the other 1:32:24.920 --> 1:32:30.640 suggestion is this peel off, forget about the threshold for 1:32:30.680 --> 1:32:35.160 the all time. It's the top one hundred or it's 1:32:35.200 --> 1:32:39.280 the top Yeah, we've looked at that. That's been discussed. 1:32:39.680 --> 1:32:42.320 I like your your thoughts in the right place. Top 1:32:42.360 --> 1:32:46.000 one died by the Top one book really yeah, like 1:32:46.080 --> 1:32:53.080 Top one hundred bucks. Yeah, or you could do like 1:32:53.080 --> 1:32:55.439 like women's magazines and have it be the top ninety 1:32:55.560 --> 1:32:58.599 nine just because it catches your because then you're like, wow, 1:32:58.600 --> 1:33:01.320 it must be real if it's ninety and anybody, anybody 1:33:01.320 --> 1:33:05.960 can do a Top one bucks. You know him? Are 1:33:05.960 --> 1:33:09.200 you guys behind the Great Rams Books? Is your names 1:33:09.200 --> 1:33:12.600 in there? Yeah? So we the last two volumes of 1:33:12.640 --> 1:33:15.479 that we've actually published. B and C Publishes Books, and 1:33:15.520 --> 1:33:18.040 so Julie Trips our director of publications, and I think 1:33:18.080 --> 1:33:20.880 it was Great Rams three. We worked with Bob Anderson 1:33:20.880 --> 1:33:22.719 and so we actually did all the publication and whatnot 1:33:22.720 --> 1:33:25.760 of three and four. Is there like, is there an 1:33:25.800 --> 1:33:30.560 equivalent for mulder Um. We did a Mule Deer retrospective. 1:33:31.200 --> 1:33:34.040 We went back and we took all of our old entries, 1:33:34.040 --> 1:33:36.479 the stuff that kind of got dropped and maybe never 1:33:36.520 --> 1:33:38.200 made an Awards book that you wouldn't see. So we 1:33:38.240 --> 1:33:41.240 did a mule Deer retrospective, and we looked at doing 1:33:41.840 --> 1:33:44.679 more of a book like that. But man, that sheep 1:33:44.680 --> 1:33:49.599 worlds just so picturesque and the characters are so defined 1:33:49.640 --> 1:33:51.360 that it's it's a little bit easier to build a 1:33:51.360 --> 1:33:53.679 book around sheep hunters. I think the mule deer hunters. 1:33:54.080 --> 1:33:57.120 There's a there's a book, Idaho's Great as Mule Deer 1:33:58.080 --> 1:34:00.519 by Ryan Hatfield. I wish it was like greatest Meal 1:34:00.600 --> 1:34:02.680 here in the West or whatever, but Idaho's greatest Meal. 1:34:02.880 --> 1:34:07.080 But it's got the stories right. I think that the dude, 1:34:07.800 --> 1:34:09.200 one of the dudes that has one of the best 1:34:09.360 --> 1:34:12.880 bucks ever got in Idaho. He um, he was just 1:34:12.960 --> 1:34:17.120 wrote out on his up behind his hot Yeah, Grover 1:34:17.240 --> 1:34:20.760 Cleveland or something like that, wrote out to shoot a 1:34:20.840 --> 1:34:24.400 buck to eat. Yeah, sees a buck, thinks there something 1:34:24.439 --> 1:34:27.720 wrong with it, shoots it, thinks himself nothing more than 1:34:27.760 --> 1:34:30.400 it was quote a squirrely looking buck or a screwy 1:34:30.400 --> 1:34:33.800 looking buck or something. And in thirty years goes by 1:34:33.800 --> 1:34:36.840 and someone finds it in his garage and like lo 1:34:36.960 --> 1:34:44.960 and behold, it's the biggest come on, Idah Hatfield. Actually 1:34:44.960 --> 1:34:47.160 he was. He had my job, but I went to 1:34:47.200 --> 1:34:49.800 work for BNC. He was the BNC guy that was 1:34:49.880 --> 1:34:52.120 doing those books. Yeah, it's got the it's got the 1:34:52.120 --> 1:34:54.040 best jacket of any book. You go look at the 1:34:54.120 --> 1:34:56.840 Idaho's Greatest Meal dere if you look at the cover 1:34:56.920 --> 1:35:00.680 of the book is hilarious. Um, so what's next for 1:35:00.680 --> 1:35:05.280 Bruning Crockett Man? You guys been around for I can't 1:35:05.280 --> 1:35:13.000 do that kind of thirties there we go? Yeah, yeah, 1:35:13.120 --> 1:35:15.320 is there like a midlife crisis that happened? Like it 1:35:15.360 --> 1:35:19.840 happens like what happens now? Do you guys launch new initiatives? 1:35:19.840 --> 1:35:22.080 Like what should people? Um, if people want to sort 1:35:22.080 --> 1:35:23.880 of see what's going on with Boone and Crocket, what 1:35:23.920 --> 1:35:26.920 do they gotta do? Well, you know, obviously go to 1:35:26.920 --> 1:35:29.519 our website. Um, you know, we try to keep everything 1:35:29.600 --> 1:35:32.519 updated there. But um, you know, we're going to continue 1:35:33.120 --> 1:35:36.200 our policy work with a focus on again have a 1:35:36.240 --> 1:35:40.519 tad health, wildlife health, and public access and because those 1:35:40.520 --> 1:35:44.040 are things that just that are NonStop that you always 1:35:44.080 --> 1:35:48.320 have to address and um you know we uh so 1:35:48.600 --> 1:35:51.280 give me the three guy. I like that wildlife health, 1:35:51.600 --> 1:35:55.759 tad health, and public access. We are mainly are three 1:35:56.200 --> 1:35:59.400 UM focusers. You know, that's a good way to sum 1:35:59.439 --> 1:36:02.559 it up. Yeah, yeah, Ben's and and you know, and 1:36:02.560 --> 1:36:06.400 as administrations change, UM, you know, we have to change 1:36:06.400 --> 1:36:10.240 with those things. So we understand, you know, we can 1:36:10.479 --> 1:36:14.439 deal with what the politics deal are dealt forward, we 1:36:14.479 --> 1:36:15.960 have to deal with the hand that we're dealt I 1:36:15.960 --> 1:36:20.960 guess and UM, but you know, we we just keep 1:36:21.479 --> 1:36:24.479 plug it along and UM and that's really all we 1:36:24.520 --> 1:36:26.920 can do. And you know, we've had some successes, we've 1:36:26.960 --> 1:36:29.479 had some failures. We've had you know, one of the 1:36:29.479 --> 1:36:34.120 most exciting things for a personal perspective, because even before 1:36:35.040 --> 1:36:37.680 Boone and Crockett that that I and probably about three 1:36:37.800 --> 1:36:40.360 or four together select individuals have been working on for 1:36:40.400 --> 1:36:43.600 the past twenty five years. It's full Funding Bill WCF, 1:36:43.680 --> 1:36:47.120 which is could be with the Great Outdoors America a 1:36:47.240 --> 1:36:50.000 Great America Outdoors Act right around the corner for the 1:36:50.000 --> 1:36:52.679 first time in twenty years, I hope. So I feel 1:36:52.720 --> 1:36:54.400 like it's been around the corner for a long time 1:36:54.479 --> 1:36:56.479 now it has. Yes, now you know, we got we 1:36:56.560 --> 1:36:59.800 got full authorization a year ago. UM. Now if we 1:37:00.000 --> 1:37:03.160 at full permanent funding, UM, you know, that's that's a 1:37:03.160 --> 1:37:06.200 big deal, and that's been a long uphill fight. But 1:37:06.840 --> 1:37:10.240 you know, you don't get every you don't get everything done. 1:37:10.720 --> 1:37:12.840 You know. We we try to do things right, not fast, 1:37:13.000 --> 1:37:14.920 and so you know, you've got to kind of look 1:37:14.960 --> 1:37:17.519 at the landscape. Okay, what is that we have twenty 1:37:18.240 --> 1:37:20.080 things on our policy agenda that we would like to 1:37:20.080 --> 1:37:22.960 see done. What out of those things can we get 1:37:22.960 --> 1:37:25.439 done in one particular administration? It might only be six, 1:37:26.240 --> 1:37:28.400 So we focus on those six things for those four 1:37:28.479 --> 1:37:31.920 years or those eight years, and and that's what that's 1:37:31.920 --> 1:37:34.800 what we focus on. UM. You know, for example, right now, 1:37:34.920 --> 1:37:38.559 Endangered Species Act, Well, you know that's an old act. 1:37:38.600 --> 1:37:40.800 It was put in for very good reasons, and we 1:37:40.840 --> 1:37:42.439 need to keep that act, but it does need to 1:37:42.479 --> 1:37:46.559 be modernized. And so UM, I don't know that we 1:37:46.600 --> 1:37:49.000 have the appetite in Congress for that right now. So 1:37:49.240 --> 1:37:51.799 why we don't want to waste our time on that again, 1:37:52.040 --> 1:37:53.639 you know, we just want to focus on the things 1:37:53.640 --> 1:37:55.519 we do think we can move the needle on. And 1:37:55.720 --> 1:37:57.479 but it's always going to fall into one of those 1:37:57.479 --> 1:38:00.679 three categories. I have a to act health, wildlife, health, 1:38:00.720 --> 1:38:06.280 republic access. That's interesting, the need to um, the need 1:38:06.320 --> 1:38:08.840 to adapt that list in order to just be most 1:38:08.840 --> 1:38:12.599 effective with what with what's going on, to be able 1:38:12.600 --> 1:38:14.439 to say, well, you know what, this issue is important 1:38:14.439 --> 1:38:16.280 to us, but now is not the time, but would 1:38:16.280 --> 1:38:19.040 be a great time for this issue, right and then 1:38:19.040 --> 1:38:21.479 and then getting the people together to do that, the 1:38:21.600 --> 1:38:26.160 different conservation organizations out there to help with that, so 1:38:26.240 --> 1:38:29.439 the Rocky Mountain out Foundation, you know, the Pheasants Group, 1:38:29.479 --> 1:38:32.760 the Mule Deer Group, and and so being able to 1:38:32.800 --> 1:38:36.120 bring those people to the table when those issues come 1:38:36.240 --> 1:38:38.960 up and knowing when to strike. Yeah. Yeah, I think 1:38:39.000 --> 1:38:41.240 that's an important point that that Kyle brought up, because, 1:38:41.240 --> 1:38:43.640 you know, one of the things that that our organization 1:38:43.720 --> 1:38:46.559 is able to do because we don't have a dog 1:38:46.600 --> 1:38:48.760 in the fight so to speak in terms of you know, 1:38:48.840 --> 1:38:51.799 events and funding and because we're pretty much eternally funded 1:38:52.320 --> 1:38:55.040 you know, UM, you know, we can we can facilitate 1:38:55.080 --> 1:38:58.400 a lot of things. UM facilitate work with among all 1:38:58.400 --> 1:39:02.280 the different organizations out there. UM twenty years ago this 1:39:02.760 --> 1:39:06.040 in August, we UH, we had a meeting at our 1:39:06.080 --> 1:39:09.920 headquarters with UM with the nonprofits at the time that 1:39:09.920 --> 1:39:13.360 we're involved with sportsman's based conservation. There was seventeen of 1:39:13.400 --> 1:39:17.320 them represented, including some of the ones that Kyle mentioned, 1:39:17.400 --> 1:39:21.400 Rocky Mountinel Foundation, the Meal Deer Guys, National Wild Turkey Federation. 1:39:21.439 --> 1:39:24.040 And you know, the whole objective of that meeting was 1:39:24.120 --> 1:39:27.960 to you know, conservation wasn't moving at the time very 1:39:28.120 --> 1:39:32.360 very well. And um, you know, the club saw an 1:39:32.360 --> 1:39:36.240 opportunity to say, Okay, you know what, we're not succeeding here. Um, 1:39:36.280 --> 1:39:38.479 and we're all going different directions. We gotta we gotta 1:39:38.600 --> 1:39:40.360 check our egos at the door. We gotta check our 1:39:40.439 --> 1:39:41.960 gen as the door. We're gonna sit down and how 1:39:42.000 --> 1:39:44.640 we can work together to get the job done. And 1:39:44.720 --> 1:39:47.080 what boiled out of that original meeting in August the 1:39:47.120 --> 1:39:51.960 two thousand was was an organization of It started out 1:39:51.960 --> 1:39:56.439 to be seventeen. Now today it's forty five sportsman's based 1:39:56.600 --> 1:39:59.960 and shooting sports based organizations that represent roughly eight mill 1:40:00.120 --> 1:40:03.040 and votes. And when there's an issue that comes in 1:40:03.080 --> 1:40:07.080 front of Congress, we draft letters that all these organizations 1:40:07.120 --> 1:40:10.599 signed on to that go to our congressional delegations and 1:40:10.640 --> 1:40:12.519 say we're in favor of this or we're not in 1:40:12.560 --> 1:40:15.960 favor of that, and um, and they listen. I mean, 1:40:16.000 --> 1:40:18.840 eight billion votes is nothing to sneeze at. So you know, 1:40:18.880 --> 1:40:21.759 if you if you look at the sports sporting community overall, 1:40:21.800 --> 1:40:24.400 I think it's better organized than it ever was at 1:40:24.560 --> 1:40:27.040 at that policy level, which is another reason why we're 1:40:27.040 --> 1:40:30.519 actually making some headway in the past. You know a 1:40:30.560 --> 1:40:33.080 few years that that we hadn't you know that we 1:40:33.080 --> 1:40:36.840 hadn't been making but um, but you know, that's one 1:40:36.880 --> 1:40:38.479 of our strengths is to be able to bring those 1:40:38.520 --> 1:40:41.200 kind of groups together and and and and focus on 1:40:41.240 --> 1:40:46.240 a common on common ground. We've had uh with Fosberg, 1:40:46.280 --> 1:40:50.160 who leads the Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership, on the show 1:40:50.200 --> 1:40:56.640 a couple of times, and um, we had him on recently, well, 1:40:56.680 --> 1:40:58.959 I guess it's months ago now. We had an interesting 1:40:59.000 --> 1:41:03.439 point where he's saying that the periods of real bipartisan 1:41:03.520 --> 1:41:10.160 dysfunction aren't necessarily bad for conservation because when you have 1:41:10.280 --> 1:41:16.320 such a tumultuous situation in the House and Senate, oftentimes, uh, 1:41:16.400 --> 1:41:19.679 you can get good pieces of conservation stuff through because 1:41:19.680 --> 1:41:23.200 they're just looking for a win, like these broad these 1:41:23.240 --> 1:41:26.760 things that have some pretty broad support when they have 1:41:26.960 --> 1:41:30.000 nothing going on and everything's acrimonious, it's like a thing 1:41:30.040 --> 1:41:33.479 that they can pass and so he doesn't feel totally 1:41:33.520 --> 1:41:35.800 pessimistic about and that's why he's looking at some of 1:41:35.840 --> 1:41:38.320 the achievements we've had over the last handful of years 1:41:38.880 --> 1:41:42.879 where they had, um, you know, some good conservation bills, 1:41:43.320 --> 1:41:47.160 because his view is that it just gives them at 1:41:47.240 --> 1:41:49.840 least something to kind of agree on and to move 1:41:49.920 --> 1:41:52.719 through some kind of you know, some common sense conservation work. 1:41:53.479 --> 1:41:55.599 I don't know if you share that opinion you look 1:41:56.560 --> 1:41:59.280 at I do. I do, yeah, And TRCP is a 1:41:59.400 --> 1:42:01.759 very active member of that a w c P American 1:42:01.760 --> 1:42:05.880 Wildlife Conservation Partner coalition. I just mentioned UM and they 1:42:05.920 --> 1:42:08.680 were at the first meeting back in two thousands and so. 1:42:09.240 --> 1:42:13.600 And Whitney's what's right. I mean, I think that the divisiveness, 1:42:13.680 --> 1:42:16.960 even though it's not pleasant to deal with, and I'm 1:42:17.000 --> 1:42:20.280 not exactly sure in the overall health of our country 1:42:20.400 --> 1:42:26.240 it is, it is a good thing, you know, UM, 1:42:26.280 --> 1:42:29.120 I will tell you for our world it has at times, 1:42:29.120 --> 1:42:32.760 not all the time, but UM at times worked our 1:42:32.800 --> 1:42:35.400 advantage now where you could say, like, here's something good 1:42:35.439 --> 1:42:37.559 you could do. Yeah, there's a lot of people that 1:42:37.640 --> 1:42:40.840 support this, and or it gets tacked onto some piece 1:42:40.840 --> 1:42:44.360 of legislation to get you know, somebody's bill pass. You know, 1:42:44.400 --> 1:42:46.640 I mean it, so yeah, I think you know it. 1:42:48.439 --> 1:42:51.800 We've tried as a as an outdoor conservation community to 1:42:51.800 --> 1:42:54.519 take advantage of those types of things to do a 1:42:54.520 --> 1:42:57.280 good thing, you know, to to turn what is not 1:42:57.800 --> 1:43:00.360 is not necessarily a great thing into something at least 1:43:00.880 --> 1:43:02.080 at the end of the day can come out as 1:43:02.080 --> 1:43:08.080 a good thing. This this conversation came out of his um. 1:43:08.120 --> 1:43:10.439 In fact, it was towards the it was an early 1:43:10.600 --> 1:43:13.599 the early part of the new year here, and we 1:43:13.600 --> 1:43:17.240 were we had put to him like like like thumbs 1:43:17.280 --> 1:43:20.719 up or thumbs down for conservation, and he had felt 1:43:20.720 --> 1:43:24.840 that it was a thumbs up year. Absolutely absolutely, we 1:43:24.840 --> 1:43:28.960 we made some great home runs last year. That's great 1:43:29.000 --> 1:43:31.200 to hear because you almost think their day. We were 1:43:31.200 --> 1:43:36.360 talking about, you know, the planes tribes. Uh, some planes 1:43:36.439 --> 1:43:38.320 tribes used to have the practice of that they would 1:43:38.320 --> 1:43:42.760 have a robe like a buffalo robe, and basically they 1:43:42.760 --> 1:43:47.760 would distill down a year into a symbol, you know, 1:43:48.080 --> 1:43:50.000 and the symbol could be any number of things, like 1:43:50.120 --> 1:43:53.680 could be like someone being sick, or like something that 1:43:53.800 --> 1:43:55.760 was like a phenomenal year for hunting or whatever. You'd 1:43:55.760 --> 1:43:57.439 like make a thing like to wrap it up, you know, 1:43:57.560 --> 1:44:00.080 And we were just saying, how is shaping up to 1:44:00.160 --> 1:44:04.679 be like the bullshit year? Yeah, you know it would 1:44:04.720 --> 1:44:07.320 have been great, would ended on February eight, you know. 1:44:08.800 --> 1:44:13.960 Unfortunately it didn't. Ye be going great for a minute there. Yeah, yeah, 1:44:14.080 --> 1:44:16.280 but no, I think twenty was a great year for 1:44:16.280 --> 1:44:20.439 for contrivation. Sorry. Yeah, nineteen was a great year. We 1:44:20.479 --> 1:44:23.320 had an ominous bill. We addressed the fire the wildfire 1:44:23.360 --> 1:44:26.599 funding fixed, you know, UM, trying to give our agency 1:44:26.640 --> 1:44:29.720 more money to manage our force instead of fight wildfires. 1:44:29.720 --> 1:44:32.040 And you know that was a great The Farm bill 1:44:32.120 --> 1:44:37.479 had some great had some great wildlife in habitat health 1:44:37.800 --> 1:44:42.479 UM language in it uh S forty seven UM Senate 1:44:42.479 --> 1:44:45.360 Bill forty seven, which had a lot of public lands 1:44:46.200 --> 1:44:48.880 great things for public lands uh in it. Yeah, we 1:44:48.920 --> 1:44:52.080 did we did some. We did some good work last year. Shot. 1:44:52.120 --> 1:44:54.120 I guess if we can get the Great American uh 1:44:54.800 --> 1:44:57.719 was the Sportsman's Act. What's it called the Great American 1:44:57.720 --> 1:45:00.280 Outdoors Act? Outdoors and uh and it's a used to 1:45:00.360 --> 1:45:04.040 be on the docket here within the next couple of weeks. 1:45:04.080 --> 1:45:06.920 Will know that's great because I'm assuming that once like 1:45:07.000 --> 1:45:14.120 October hits, nothing's gonna happen well yeah, campaigns, yeah, you know, 1:45:14.320 --> 1:45:16.120 and and in the past that's kind of what the 1:45:16.120 --> 1:45:18.240 way it's been. Of course, this is you know, you 1:45:18.360 --> 1:45:20.599 never know. But I think we it's in our best 1:45:20.680 --> 1:45:23.080 interest again as a community get as much done as 1:45:23.120 --> 1:45:25.479 we as quickly as we can at this point because 1:45:25.520 --> 1:45:28.280 most of the legislation that's on on deck right now 1:45:28.320 --> 1:45:30.600 has been stuff that's been worked on. So it's not 1:45:30.680 --> 1:45:36.639 like we're trying to create language. Just finished across first 1:45:37.080 --> 1:45:39.559 publishing the deal, so if we can get it across 1:45:39.600 --> 1:45:43.360 the finish line, it'll be great and and that. So 1:45:43.880 --> 1:45:46.599 to ask your question, I don't think shot. I think 1:45:46.600 --> 1:45:51.280 it's hanging in the balance. I feel shot well from 1:45:51.520 --> 1:45:54.320 we're only on the sixth month right, feel like it 1:45:54.439 --> 1:45:58.080 just needs to go away and start understand I'm the 1:45:58.080 --> 1:46:01.160 eternal optimist too, but um but now, you know, we 1:46:01.240 --> 1:46:03.960 still got some some good things going out there. I mean, 1:46:04.000 --> 1:46:07.639 I think again, the health of our country, the health 1:46:07.680 --> 1:46:11.479 of our economy. It you know, it's a driver that 1:46:11.720 --> 1:46:16.080 is gonna resonate with um, you know, with funding for 1:46:16.160 --> 1:46:18.599 what we want to do in you know, in in 1:46:18.600 --> 1:46:23.000 in the conservation arena and but by and large the 1:46:23.960 --> 1:46:28.400 public in general, I think they realized they may not 1:46:28.520 --> 1:46:32.920 know why, but that you know, our natural resources in 1:46:33.200 --> 1:46:35.559 our country are probably the most valuable asset that we 1:46:35.600 --> 1:46:38.840 have and without those, regardless of Wall Street or anything else, 1:46:39.400 --> 1:46:42.360 nothing's nothing else is going to take and you know, 1:46:42.479 --> 1:46:46.040 so we've got to maintain the health and viability of 1:46:46.040 --> 1:46:49.040 our natural resource space. I'm glad to hear that you 1:46:49.040 --> 1:46:51.880 think that the public recognizes that, because I don't know 1:46:51.920 --> 1:46:56.439 if I always feel that way. It's well, it goes 1:46:56.479 --> 1:46:58.560 back to thee the point about the you know, the 1:46:58.920 --> 1:47:02.400 quote environmental is um. You know, so you know, there's 1:47:02.479 --> 1:47:05.160 it does It doesn't make any difference exactly what what 1:47:05.280 --> 1:47:07.920 the hell they think, but they're at least aware of it, 1:47:08.920 --> 1:47:12.760 and um they may not again, they may not know why, 1:47:13.160 --> 1:47:16.639 they may not be exactly have all the right reasons, 1:47:16.800 --> 1:47:20.240 but at the same time, you know, folks are kind 1:47:20.240 --> 1:47:23.160 of aware of the fact that you know, are you know, 1:47:23.200 --> 1:47:25.040 it's kind of important that we have a healthy environment 1:47:25.040 --> 1:47:28.960 to live in, and it's a healthy in Now, there's 1:47:28.960 --> 1:47:31.000 gonna be people to think we're cutting down too many trees. 1:47:31.000 --> 1:47:33.200 There's gonna be people that think they're not cutting down enough. 1:47:33.400 --> 1:47:36.400 You know, science points to right now, we need more 1:47:36.479 --> 1:47:40.000 active forest management overall. That's not going to be agreeable 1:47:40.040 --> 1:47:43.240 with with everybody. But the point I'm making is people 1:47:43.240 --> 1:47:46.160 are noticing it. You know, people are saying, you know, 1:47:46.200 --> 1:47:50.080 we've got a forest health problem and um, and I 1:47:50.080 --> 1:47:52.920 think that's a positive thing. Yeah, even though some of 1:47:52.960 --> 1:47:56.360 the details might become a little contentious. Details are always contentious. 1:47:56.520 --> 1:47:58.479 The devil's in the details. Yeah. I like to think 1:47:58.520 --> 1:48:06.080 I have, um, you know, I have a borderline like 1:48:06.240 --> 1:48:10.760 unconditional love for my country, like a deep patriotism. And 1:48:10.800 --> 1:48:13.360 it's hard to picture, like, yeah, how would I feel 1:48:13.400 --> 1:48:16.960 differently if it was Um, would I feel differently if 1:48:17.000 --> 1:48:20.559 it was like an environmental waste land. They're not gonna 1:48:20.560 --> 1:48:25.519 help it, right, it's not gonna help. Well, I just 1:48:25.640 --> 1:48:27.639 I grew up over the hill here in Butte, Montana, 1:48:27.760 --> 1:48:29.960 which you know, back when I grew up as a kid, 1:48:30.000 --> 1:48:34.480 was not exactly the most environmentally pleasant place to look at. Um, 1:48:34.520 --> 1:48:36.200 but I will tell you, you know, they've made great 1:48:36.200 --> 1:48:39.000 strides and correcting that problem. And and no, you know, 1:48:40.800 --> 1:48:44.439 throwing fist throwing, but you know, but your point is 1:48:44.479 --> 1:48:46.320 well taken. I mean, if we don't have our natural 1:48:46.360 --> 1:48:49.280 resource base. We don't have you know, wild places and 1:48:49.320 --> 1:48:52.479 wildlife that have it, those wild places to enjoy as 1:48:52.520 --> 1:48:56.280 a country. Um, you know, I just I don't. I 1:48:56.360 --> 1:49:00.920 think the patriotism part becomes a lot more difficult, for sure. Yeah, 1:49:00.960 --> 1:49:04.160 there's a lot to be proud of, right, and it didn't. 1:49:04.160 --> 1:49:05.920 And the thing I try to more and more point 1:49:05.920 --> 1:49:10.160 out to people is, um, like growing up, you know, 1:49:10.200 --> 1:49:12.080 as a little kid or whatever, you you think all 1:49:12.160 --> 1:49:16.960 the great things and the wildlife and stuffer uh just 1:49:17.080 --> 1:49:22.639 there like by accident, untouched like untouched by the hands 1:49:22.640 --> 1:49:25.760 of man, right, and then later you're like, oh no, 1:49:25.920 --> 1:49:30.200 they got touched there there because people. They're there because 1:49:30.200 --> 1:49:32.800 people are like decided to have it be there. It 1:49:32.920 --> 1:49:37.160 was a conscious decision. It was a conscious decision that 1:49:37.360 --> 1:49:40.400 like cost money and cost time, and it was like, 1:49:40.880 --> 1:49:46.400 there's nothing accidental, no North American model. It's awesome. They 1:49:46.479 --> 1:49:50.520 realized that was that it's awesome. They realized that. Well, 1:49:50.240 --> 1:49:53.040 I realized, but it took me thirty years to realize it. Well, 1:49:53.080 --> 1:49:57.040 I mean back in the late Yeah, it was realized 1:49:57.080 --> 1:49:59.680 and that people had the foresight that they didn't just 1:49:59.800 --> 1:50:05.360 let walk off some species. But but again, I mean, 1:50:05.400 --> 1:50:08.920 that's just awesome that that a group of people or 1:50:08.960 --> 1:50:11.519 a collective of people took that on and said we 1:50:11.800 --> 1:50:14.920 can't let this happen. Yeah, they tried to do like 1:50:15.240 --> 1:50:18.000 you know, try to do the impossible, or or what 1:50:18.080 --> 1:50:20.439 other people were. That's the thing I would like to 1:50:20.960 --> 1:50:22.839 bring up. And it's similar to when Boone and Crockett 1:50:22.880 --> 1:50:25.320 started out is Um. When I was working on a 1:50:25.320 --> 1:50:29.759 book American Buffalo. Uh, I talked about that guy Horn today, 1:50:30.160 --> 1:50:34.360 m and um. They were so sure that animals gone. 1:50:35.280 --> 1:50:37.400 That's why the National Collection was started. They were so 1:50:37.520 --> 1:50:40.320 sure it was gone. They dispatched him out by rail 1:50:41.000 --> 1:50:43.639 on like an emergency order to go shoot a couple 1:50:43.640 --> 1:50:47.040 and save the skeletons because they wanted they wanted to 1:50:47.040 --> 1:50:49.679 be able to have like a specimen and they wanted 1:50:49.760 --> 1:50:53.280 hides and skeletons, and they're like, hurry, yeah, now is 1:50:53.320 --> 1:50:57.800 your chance. Well that was originally the measuring system too, 1:50:57.920 --> 1:51:00.960 was so we could kind of picture man. Yeah, he 1:51:01.040 --> 1:51:02.560 was supposed to go get like as many as he 1:51:02.600 --> 1:51:05.120 could get so that Sunday people will be like that's 1:51:05.160 --> 1:51:08.240 what it looked like when they truck one back to 1:51:08.320 --> 1:51:12.240 the Bronx Zoo and then they had a buffalo sitting 1:51:12.240 --> 1:51:14.720 there hanging out in New York and Bronx. Yeah. That's 1:51:14.720 --> 1:51:16.960 one of the great ironies of that story is that 1:51:18.120 --> 1:51:22.000 later when they tried to one of the projects of 1:51:22.040 --> 1:51:24.439 bringing them back to the Great Plains, that they had 1:51:24.479 --> 1:51:27.320 to use as a source herd the Bronx Zoo. Yeah, 1:51:27.400 --> 1:51:30.360 they're like bringing them. They're bringing bison from the east 1:51:30.400 --> 1:51:36.479 to the West, which, like that collector mentality um, proved 1:51:36.520 --> 1:51:39.040 to be pretty valuable. So where are you guys? How 1:51:39.080 --> 1:51:41.040 do people find you? Guys in the web? Hopefully you 1:51:41.040 --> 1:51:45.680 got Boone and Crockett domain. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we got 1:51:45.720 --> 1:51:48.080 on that one. So yeah, just type that in and 1:51:48.160 --> 1:51:50.720 you'll find us. That's great, man. And if you got 1:51:50.760 --> 1:51:52.639 you know, next time you're over at your grandpa's barn 1:51:52.640 --> 1:51:55.400 and you find some crazy deer heading there. Yeah, I 1:51:55.439 --> 1:51:58.640 call one of our four official measures out there, and 1:51:58.720 --> 1:52:01.200 you can find those on our webs right, and maybe 1:52:01.200 --> 1:52:04.000 you'll make the all time, maybe you'll make the top us. 1:52:04.479 --> 1:52:07.680 It doesn't matter. Justin says a lot of times that 1:52:07.880 --> 1:52:11.040 you know, we'd much rather see let's take white tail. 1:52:11.080 --> 1:52:13.360 We'd much rather see a hundred sixty inch white tail 1:52:13.760 --> 1:52:16.679 out of an area we've never seen it before. Then 1:52:16.720 --> 1:52:20.280 the next two white tail, because that's that's telling us 1:52:20.320 --> 1:52:24.400 more about the management that you know, whatever this area 1:52:24.479 --> 1:52:30.439 was doing is now producing mature animals. So it's more 1:52:30.479 --> 1:52:33.920 exciting for us to see that animal come in from 1:52:33.960 --> 1:52:36.920 an area that we haven't might not have previously seen 1:52:37.560 --> 1:52:39.559 something come in, or we were seeing him from there 1:52:39.600 --> 1:52:41.280 and then they kind of dropped off and now they're 1:52:41.280 --> 1:52:44.360 cooking back up. You know what book I really want 1:52:44.360 --> 1:52:46.439 the more I think about it, this would be a 1:52:46.479 --> 1:52:49.519 custom book you can make just for me. It'd be 1:52:49.800 --> 1:52:51.439 just called the Top one hundred, but it's the Top 1:52:51.479 --> 1:52:55.960 one hundred everything. So it's all of the things, all 1:52:56.000 --> 1:52:59.600 of the North American game animals. But it's like, and 1:52:59.640 --> 1:53:01.240 you might you know, I don't know if it winds 1:53:01.280 --> 1:53:04.000 up being you just have to figure out the ratio, right, 1:53:04.280 --> 1:53:06.719 so be like probably like you probably want twenty white tails, 1:53:07.720 --> 1:53:11.559 ten mule deer, one goat, So what about that would 1:53:11.560 --> 1:53:14.280 be a good But what about a picked up head? Sure? 1:53:14.280 --> 1:53:15.960 I don't care, I mean, you don't care if there's 1:53:16.000 --> 1:53:21.759 not a story, I don't want that. The Top hundred, 1:53:21.760 --> 1:53:24.320 B and C. And it'd be like you know, you 1:53:24.400 --> 1:53:25.760 just well, how do you want to break it out? 1:53:25.960 --> 1:53:27.360 Like you don't want to It can't be like fifty 1:53:27.360 --> 1:53:30.080 mountain goats. That's not gonna be that's not gonna be 1:53:30.160 --> 1:53:33.160 very exciting. Like oh, mountain goat act. I would like 1:53:33.200 --> 1:53:35.640 to have two lions in it. The mountain goats are 1:53:35.640 --> 1:53:38.400 the best stories we have. Nobody kills a good goat 1:53:38.400 --> 1:53:41.599 that doesn't almost die. Like three dollars sheet, you'd probably 1:53:41.600 --> 1:53:46.760 have five big horns. This is getting recorded right fills 1:53:46.800 --> 1:53:51.880 an outline the whole alright, Boone Crocket Club, Thank you 1:53:52.000 --> 1:53:53.559 very much. Guys, we should have done this a long 1:53:53.560 --> 1:53:58.120 time ago. Um, next time something weird happens, let us know, 1:53:58.040 --> 1:54:01.559 you know, I want to have it be that when 1:54:01.600 --> 1:54:05.080 you get uh that when you have a hard call 1:54:05.160 --> 1:54:10.600 to make, like like the bear thing or something that, um, 1:54:10.680 --> 1:54:13.240 we can come down and participate in making the call. Okay, 1:54:13.840 --> 1:54:18.800 probably like like here's what I do. And then that 1:54:18.840 --> 1:54:21.800 guy will run into every hunting publication being that damn 1:54:21.840 --> 1:54:25.160 Ronella metalized me. That's good. It gets us off of 1:54:25.240 --> 1:54:28.240 us and puts it on someone else. Fill the side 1:54:28.280 --> 1:54:32.960 will be like Phil, what do you think? Phil also 1:54:33.000 --> 1:54:35.440 point out that Boone and Crocket Club has a discount 1:54:35.440 --> 1:54:39.800 code where listeners of the of this pod here you 1:54:39.800 --> 1:54:43.760 can get ten bucks off a yearly subscription to Fair 1:54:43.840 --> 1:54:47.520 Chase magazine. You just got to use the code me eater. 1:54:48.280 --> 1:54:50.560 And so that's for folks listening right now are like, 1:54:50.800 --> 1:54:53.440 it's kind of interesting, Well go find out just how 1:54:53.520 --> 1:54:57.160 interesting and get your discount on Boone and Crockett Clubs 1:54:57.560 --> 1:55:01.680 publication Fair Chase. All right, thanks guys, yea, thanks for 1:55:01.760 --> 1:55:12.320 having us. It's immediate podcast talking bout things you might 1:55:12.440 --> 1:55:27.000 want to hear. It's needy podcasts people about things you 1:55:27.080 --> 1:55:36.880 might want to talk about, hunting and fishing and conservation, 1:55:38.800 --> 1:55:51.640 and occasionally by white tailed de Go underwear Steve Vernell. 1:55:51.720 --> 1:56:05.360 He's the whole man. That guy likes to talk, so 1:56:05.480 --> 1:56:10.960 purely bug mitton underwear less Stevens as a host man 1:56:11.000 --> 1:56:21.120 that fella loves to talk. But make no mistake about it, 1:56:21.240 --> 1:56:35.360 my friends, that skinny guy, and he also walks along right. 1:56:35.440 --> 1:56:40.800 Can a hand in theis? Tell you know, how can 1:56:40.840 --> 1:56:55.840 you not be a fan killing Yana Germany? Indeed we 1:56:55.880 --> 1:57:07.680 should all be fans. Okayl's got this conservation podcast in 1:57:07.840 --> 1:57:19.200 Yanni as the world's most alf of man. There's a 1:57:19.280 --> 1:57:25.600 lot to talk time in conservation and things we do 1:57:25.840 --> 1:57:37.000 and don't want to see. Lots to talk about conservation 1:57:37.920 --> 1:57:49.480 things we do when you don't want to see, all 1:57:49.560 --> 1:57:55.600 kinds of hunting and fishing techniques and bas by c 1:57:56.000 --> 1:58:09.600 W porn fingers and other weird injuries, hunting half and 1:58:09.720 --> 1:58:20.240 hunting fishing down on the farm, porn fingers and ripped 1:58:20.360 --> 1:58:24.720 nipples and other eye injuries part of hunting fishing, her 1:58:24.800 --> 1:58:34.160 life on the farm. But if you're lucky like I was, 1:58:37.280 --> 1:58:39.360 you know what that we just sold that thing right 1:58:39.400 --> 1:58:49.760 back on. Uh, we're in the hunt in public access 1:58:52.320 --> 1:59:03.040 two more subjects. You should all care about getting people 1:59:03.040 --> 1:59:07.800 out hunting public land and access m in the two things. 1:59:07.880 --> 1:59:21.280 And we should all care about fishing, catch your release. 1:59:23.120 --> 1:59:32.280 You think it matters to travel? I do so. Welcome 1:59:32.360 --> 1:59:38.720 to this podcast friends, it's good to have you do. 1:59:45.680 --> 1:59:52.520 Welcome to the media podcasted people, get some good have 1:59:52.840 --> 2:00:02.160 you here. Just remember some of these things might seem 2:00:02.200 --> 2:00:21.600 real simple, but others they're not so clear. Yeah, it's long, 2:00:21.800 --> 2:00:25.600 is that well? I can cleane that up. Look, you 2:00:25.640 --> 2:00:26.280 get the idea