1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,079 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:25,920 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show. 5 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:28,560 Speaker 1: My name is Matt. The guy that would normally speak 6 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 1: now is Noel, but he's not here today but will 7 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 1: be returning soon. They call me Ben. We're joined as 8 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:38,280 Speaker 1: always with our super producer Alexis code named Doc Holiday Jackson. 9 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:41,839 Speaker 1: Most importantly, you are you. You are here, and that 10 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:44,960 Speaker 1: makes this the stuff they don't want you to know. 11 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:49,160 Speaker 1: Last week we did something relatively rare for our show, 12 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:53,639 Speaker 1: which is we took a brief day off from one episode. 13 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 1: For one episode one day. We didn't pay attention to 14 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 1: the internet, just the acord. Even more crazy stuff went wrong. 15 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 1: Crazy things are happening an apartment complex in a neighborhood 16 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 1: kind of north of us. Blew up. That happened. Yeah, yeah, 17 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 1: that happened. Uh. And as you are hearing this, we 18 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:17,360 Speaker 1: don't know what will be happening if you hear this 19 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 1: the day it comes out, But we do know one thing. 20 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 1: The most important part of the show is you and 21 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:29,039 Speaker 1: your fellow conspiracy realist. So we are as always immensely fortunate, grateful, 22 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:33,560 Speaker 1: and excited to dive into this week's listener male segment. 23 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 1: And there's a funny thing that happens sometimes, Matt, where 24 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 1: I don't know about you, but I'll have something on 25 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:40,880 Speaker 1: my mind, and does this make a good episode with 26 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 1: this be something that our fellow conspiracy realists are interested 27 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:49,000 Speaker 1: in exploring with us, and these moments of synchronicity. Uh, 28 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:53,920 Speaker 1: sometimes someone will send a voicemail or contact me on 29 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 1: social media or send us an email, and it will 30 00:01:56,920 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 1: be like they put their hand in some like body 31 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:04,560 Speaker 1: horror away through my ear and like found that those 32 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 1: brain cells with that idea, they took them out and 33 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:08,960 Speaker 1: then they just sort of like pop them into an 34 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 1: email or a message. And that's what happened with our 35 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:17,240 Speaker 1: very first piece of correspondence, at least in my mind. Wow, Okay, well, 36 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:21,120 Speaker 1: I just liked this email. I got a lot of 37 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:25,920 Speaker 1: ice coffee going on, man, a lot of ice coffee today. 38 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:28,520 Speaker 1: But this is something you mentioned at the very end 39 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 1: of our episode on maple syrup cartels or the one 40 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 1: maple Syrup cartel, And that's true. We mentioned alternative milks 41 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:39,320 Speaker 1: I believe I don't know the exact quote, because every 42 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 1: one of these episodes that you hear now is one 43 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:44,960 Speaker 1: giant run on conversation between Ben and Nolan. I and 44 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 1: I have no idea when they happen or where they happen, 45 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:52,239 Speaker 1: but I know we talked about it. Um. But yes, 46 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:55,280 Speaker 1: we got a message from someone we're going to title 47 00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:59,440 Speaker 1: nuts about milk. This person says, Hi, guys. While ordering 48 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:01,959 Speaker 1: coffee's for work one day, one of my colleagues, who 49 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 1: lives in Los Angeles warned me about how bad almond 50 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:08,960 Speaker 1: milk is for the environment. For one leader of almond 51 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 1: milk to be made, you need six thousand liters of water. 52 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 1: I was shocked. I'm not much of an almond milk 53 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:19,120 Speaker 1: fan myself, but how is this information not more widely known. 54 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:21,919 Speaker 1: She also said that there are lots of almond farms 55 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:25,120 Speaker 1: in California, and because they require so much water, they're 56 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 1: contributing to the droughts that cause these terrible wildfires to happen. 57 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 1: Can you do a deep dive on big Almond and 58 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 1: see how deep the issue actually goes? What else is 59 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 1: Big Almond trying to hide? For now? I'm avoiding almond 60 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:42,680 Speaker 1: milk altogether and telling everyone I know to do the same. Thanks, 61 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 1: nuts about milk. Yeah, so first, uh, nuts about milk. 62 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 1: Congratulations on your newfound telepathic abilities. A little freaked out, 63 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 1: but what a great suggestion. It is true, especially when 64 00:03:57,120 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 1: you consider how often in the re in past, almond 65 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 1: milk has been touted as something generally just not just 66 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 1: better for you, but better for the world because it's 67 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 1: not part of the traditional dairy industry. Those those things 68 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 1: may be true in many cases, but that doesn't mean 69 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:20,840 Speaker 1: there's not stuff they don't want you to know about 70 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 1: almond milk and nuts about milk. I feel like you 71 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 1: nailed it. And this is this is kind of the 72 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 1: tip of a very thirsty iceberg. Iceberg is highly thirsty 73 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 1: thirsty iceberg. That's the street name. Now, it really is 74 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 1: all the icebergs out there. Oh, they just need more 75 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:43,279 Speaker 1: water and then they needed to be colder. Um. Okay, 76 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 1: So we're gonna jump to a story that I think 77 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 1: maybe close to where a lot of the information out 78 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:53,600 Speaker 1: there on the Internet about almond milk and water usage 79 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 1: where it arose, or at least where the general public 80 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:01,640 Speaker 1: us kind of got hip to what is occurring. And 81 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:04,479 Speaker 1: I use hip here on purpose because it is a 82 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:09,160 Speaker 1: Mother Jones article written by a person named Tom Philpott 83 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:11,719 Speaker 1: p h I L P O T T. And the 84 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 1: title is layoff the almond milk, You ignorant hipsters, Coming 85 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 1: in Hot, Coming in Hot. It was written July six, 86 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:27,520 Speaker 1: was published rather July, and in here he really phil 87 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 1: goes into information about almond milk production and just about 88 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:39,159 Speaker 1: how it is the it is becoming very very popular 89 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:44,600 Speaker 1: as a milk substitute, a non dairy milk substitute, and 90 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 1: my goodness, as you're going through here, he's I mean, 91 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:52,520 Speaker 1: it's very much their opinion, as you can tell by 92 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 1: the title is very much injected into this story. But 93 00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:01,599 Speaker 1: it talks about specifically what is in almond milk? Is 94 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 1: it mostly water? Is it a lot of water? What 95 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:07,480 Speaker 1: are you getting besides water from this almond milk when 96 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 1: it comes to nutrients and other important things that your 97 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 1: body needs, and specifically how expensive it is. So that 98 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 1: kind of started this trend of thinking about almond milk differently, 99 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 1: like maybe it's not this wonderful savior of our breakfast cereals. 100 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 1: Uh as I admit I use almond milk and cereal 101 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:37,240 Speaker 1: if I eat cereal. Um. Well, here's the thing. This 102 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:41,040 Speaker 1: was a follow up article to another one that Phil 103 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:44,039 Speaker 1: put out in Mother Jones two days previously on the 104 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 1: fourteenth of July, and that one was titled your almond 105 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 1: habit is sucking California dry. Here in lies most of 106 00:06:55,400 --> 00:07:00,360 Speaker 1: the information. It's got graphs you guys, of almond deduction, 107 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:03,840 Speaker 1: how many almonds are are being produced, how much an 108 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 1: almond costs, uh, like in millions of dollars for the 109 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 1: for California specifically, and it also talks about the drought 110 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 1: in California and how much water in almond needs for production. 111 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:22,720 Speaker 1: Within this article, he states that it takes one point 112 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 1: one gallons of water to produce one single, tiny little almond. 113 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 1: So he hits you with the amount of water it 114 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:31,640 Speaker 1: takes to create one almond. Then he lets you know 115 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 1: that California in at the time was poised to produce 116 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 1: two point one billion pounds of almonds in that year. 117 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:45,080 Speaker 1: And for just for a sense of perspective here, Uh, 118 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 1: they're about four hundred pieces when you're talking almonds, four 119 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 1: pieces per pounds. Four hundred almonds like raw almonds without pounds. 120 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 1: So that's like if people well you know, when you 121 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 1: hear up this gallon of water is an all injury. 122 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 1: How many billions of pounds? Uh, we need to emphasize 123 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 1: this is a lot of almonds. This isn't all the almonds, 124 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:11,800 Speaker 1: but this is a lot of almonds. And in defense 125 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 1: of alments, I think they're delicious. They're good survival snack 126 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 1: to keep around because I can also suppress your appetite 127 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 1: a little bit, That's right. And and Phil goes on 128 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 1: just to point out that these farmers, as like large 129 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 1: companies that are also farming here and producing almonds, they 130 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:33,560 Speaker 1: are many times dropping wells to get down to the 131 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:37,160 Speaker 1: water that's underneath the earth, the aquifers, to really pull 132 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:40,679 Speaker 1: enough water out of the earth to produce these things, 133 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:44,960 Speaker 1: as well as using you know, municipal water to to 134 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 1: get what they need to grow these things. And my gosh, really, 135 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 1: let's just get down to kind of how he ends this, 136 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 1: and he's he's discussing demand, like why are this Why 137 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 1: is California producing this many almonds? Why is it eight 138 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 1: percent of the market essentially of almond production, and especially 139 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 1: in California where droughts happen all the time, it wasn't 140 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:15,240 Speaker 1: necessarily at the levels that that we've seen California's droughts to, 141 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:18,240 Speaker 1: you know, to get to the severity of issues there, 142 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:23,240 Speaker 1: but wasn't doing so great. Um, He's just saying that 143 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 1: the deep need for us to have almonds, and specifically 144 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 1: almond milk is what's driving all of this stuff and 145 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:33,559 Speaker 1: using up so much of the water there. And when 146 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 1: he says we, he's not just meaning residents of the US, 147 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 1: the residents of the world globally. Yes, And you know, 148 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:46,360 Speaker 1: many people in California, many institutions in California are concerned 149 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:50,280 Speaker 1: about this, and we're concerned about this. In January, the 150 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:53,960 Speaker 1: University of California, San Francisco put out a story called 151 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:57,440 Speaker 1: Almond Milk is taking a Toll on the environment, and 152 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 1: it's a similar story there talking about how much it 153 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:03,320 Speaker 1: how much water it takes to produce this they say. 154 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:05,680 Speaker 1: They site a New York Times article within this one, 155 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:09,440 Speaker 1: citing that it takes approximately fifteen gallons of water to 156 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 1: produce sixteen almonds, which doesn't quite compute to what we 157 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:15,960 Speaker 1: heard from Phil. That's not quite one point one gallons 158 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:19,480 Speaker 1: per almond. That's a little under figure. You're going to 159 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 1: find that that number fluctuates a bit depending on the 160 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 1: source that you're looking at, but they do. They do 161 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:30,679 Speaker 1: note that there are a ton of lands in California 162 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 1: that are being converted to specifically almond farmland, and uh, 163 00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 1: the a lot of this land was previously wetlands out 164 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:43,480 Speaker 1: in California, and just how that very much changes things 165 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 1: when you convert a wet land into farmland, and not 166 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 1: for the better. When it comes to helping hold back 167 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 1: some of these massive fires. Wetlands are one of the 168 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:57,480 Speaker 1: best things that fire can encounter when it comes to 169 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 1: stopping that fire or at least slowing it down. There's 170 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:02,680 Speaker 1: a ton of information in here. You can read all 171 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:04,600 Speaker 1: about it. You can read about the Almond Board of 172 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 1: California and what they officially state when it comes to 173 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:11,240 Speaker 1: the water usage of almond's. I want to keep going 174 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 1: down this rabbit hole a little bit further. I know, 175 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:15,360 Speaker 1: we're just kind of barely touching on things were set. 176 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:18,960 Speaker 1: We're painting the background. There's yeah, there's a ton. I 177 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:22,880 Speaker 1: highly recommend everyone heads over to the BBC and reads 178 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 1: an article that came out in twenty nineteen called Climate Change, 179 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 1: which vegan milk is best, and it looks it's looking 180 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 1: specifically at dairy, rice, soy, oat, and almond milk. They're 181 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: looking at things like the number of emissions or the 182 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 1: amount of carbon emissions and other dangerous emissions like that 183 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 1: are produced per kilogram of whatever this thing is that 184 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 1: you're producing, whether it's soy or oat or almond, as 185 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 1: well as the land use, which is like how many 186 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:55,320 Speaker 1: square miles of land do you actually need to produce 187 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:59,719 Speaker 1: this stuff? As well as water use. And they've got 188 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 1: a eight graph here that really puts it into perspective. 189 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:05,920 Speaker 1: If you're looking at almond milk, in the amount of 190 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 1: water that is needed to produce these things. For milk, 191 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:14,800 Speaker 1: it's high. It is the second largest. When when it 192 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:18,960 Speaker 1: comes to almond, oat, soy, rice and dairy. Below that, 193 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:26,240 Speaker 1: you've got rice than oats, than soy. Then way way above, 194 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:29,600 Speaker 1: categorically above the amount of water that it takes to 195 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:33,040 Speaker 1: produce almonds, you have dairy milk there it is, Which 196 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:35,440 Speaker 1: is the whole reason I wanted to talk about this 197 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:40,480 Speaker 1: um not only because our Atlanta photographer wrote to us, 198 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:44,800 Speaker 1: uh nuts about milk, but we this right here. As 199 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 1: I as I started tracking this down, this whole thing, 200 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:54,400 Speaker 1: Ben feels to me like another dairy conspiracy. Oh you 201 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 1: think d M I is involved Dairy Management Incorporated. Check 202 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:00,680 Speaker 1: out our Big Cheese episode. Yes, I can't prove this. 203 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 1: I cannot prove this. This is this is old Matt's 204 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:10,400 Speaker 1: noggin coming up with stuff predicting the weather track in 205 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:18,360 Speaker 1: the dairy because because if you if you follow the 206 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:23,840 Speaker 1: track of that BBC article, uh, there's some great articles 207 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 1: that it then links out to and some research that 208 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:29,200 Speaker 1: you can find in there. It breaks it all down. 209 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 1: But let's say maybe you don't trust BBC for one 210 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 1: reason or another. Um, but they do a great job 211 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:39,280 Speaker 1: of citing I'm telling you, a really good job of 212 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 1: citing everything. You can jump to a website called truth 213 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:46,959 Speaker 1: or drought dot com. This might be more of your speed, 214 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 1: may not be. I personally enjoy the BBC, but we're 215 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:53,200 Speaker 1: not gonna talk about all that. You can read that 216 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:57,720 Speaker 1: article yourself. The truth or Doubt website has an article 217 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 1: called myth almond milk is using all the water and 218 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:06,960 Speaker 1: in here it sites specifically Tom phil Putts article the 219 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:10,520 Speaker 1: Ignorant Hipsters one, as well as because that one really 220 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:13,679 Speaker 1: went viral apparently I was not aware of that, but 221 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 1: but it also talks about the previous article, the first one, 222 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:21,200 Speaker 1: and they say that I'm gonna read from their article 223 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 1: lies of omission, whether intentional or not, omitting altogether the 224 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 1: much higher water and ecological footprint of dairy and all 225 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 1: animal agriculture. They're saying, this is the tactic being implemented 226 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 1: by somebody, whether they know it or not, to make 227 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 1: almonds look bad and to just kind of forget about dairy, 228 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 1: milk and cows, sort of make almonds the face of 229 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:50,680 Speaker 1: the ongoing drought problems. Exactly exactly, So I want to 230 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:55,120 Speaker 1: jump down to a section where they compare almonds to 231 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 1: dairy when it comes to water and what the yield is. 232 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 1: So I'm gonna read some of this verbatim truth or drought. 233 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:07,720 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, but here it is. They say that within 234 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 1: California almonds, the production of almonds used eight percent of 235 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 1: California's water, and it yielded of the US slash eight 236 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 1: percent of the worldwide almonds produced. So the amount of 237 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 1: almonds that's US eighty percent of worldwide almonds produced's okay, 238 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 1: eight percent of the water in California for most of 239 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:35,680 Speaker 1: the almonds that the world uses. And then they go 240 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 1: to dairy in California, and they say that fiftent of 241 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:44,480 Speaker 1: California's water is used to grow alfalfa. That's pay for 242 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 1: livestock feed, and that is part of the total of 243 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:51,360 Speaker 1: forty seven percent of California's water used for meat and dairy. 244 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:53,920 Speaker 1: And this does not include drinking water for any of 245 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 1: the cows or the cattle. So that's just the whole 246 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 1: extra thing that would need to be included in the 247 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:03,800 Speaker 1: yield that you get for fent of the water to 248 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 1: grow all that food for all these cows is one 249 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:12,360 Speaker 1: of the United States and one point four of global dairy. 250 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:14,960 Speaker 1: So that's kind of hard when I when I say 251 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 1: it like that, in all of those things, but eight 252 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 1: percent of the water gives you of the US almonds. 253 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:26,480 Speaker 1: Of the water in California gives you of the dairy 254 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 1: milk produced in the United States. And you can already see, folks, 255 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 1: that there's there's more to this story. There's more to unpack. 256 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 1: So what I suggest is we pause for a word 257 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:40,200 Speaker 1: from our sponsors. Let's see if they are all nder 258 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 1: dairy related, and then we will return to explore this 259 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 1: just a little bit further. That's right, We'll be right back. 260 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 1: Don't forget there's all this stuff about almonds, milk and bees. 261 00:16:51,560 --> 00:17:00,440 Speaker 1: It's really you've got to look at that too. And 262 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 1: we have returned, So Matt, this is something that's been 263 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 1: on my mind as well, and that I think could 264 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:12,639 Speaker 1: be a full episode because we're seeing we're seeing a 265 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 1: couple of things, so we're seeing people who do have 266 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:20,040 Speaker 1: an angle perspective in a bias at play. Right. That 267 00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:23,360 Speaker 1: doesn't mean that what they're saying is untrue, but it 268 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:25,920 Speaker 1: does mean that they may frame things in a way 269 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:30,119 Speaker 1: they feel as advantageous to their point of view. And 270 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 1: this this happens all the time with any trade group. 271 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:36,960 Speaker 1: Almonds are a little bit different from some other crops 272 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 1: because they can only grow in specific parts of the 273 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 1: world unless you build like an artificial indoor environment for them. 274 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 1: In California happens to be one of those places, which 275 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:49,879 Speaker 1: is why it is such a behemoth in the world 276 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:52,520 Speaker 1: of almonds, kind of like the same thing with Canada 277 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 1: and Mabel Syrup, honestly, and this is coupled with a 278 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:02,919 Speaker 1: very serious problem, which is the search for solutions to 279 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 1: California's droughts, which are you know, a prime driver of wildfires. 280 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:13,439 Speaker 1: They are also Uh, they are also increasingly going to 281 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 1: be a matter of concern to just people who happen 282 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 1: to live in California, you know. And when this kind 283 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:22,560 Speaker 1: of stuff happens, when people are scared, and rightly so, 284 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:26,640 Speaker 1: human beings tend to want a face or a symbol 285 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 1: to put on the problem. So you can give people 286 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:32,640 Speaker 1: stats and graphs all day, but instead if you give 287 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 1: them a headline with I don't know, like how you 288 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:38,440 Speaker 1: would make you know how Like political smear campaigns around 289 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:41,480 Speaker 1: election time, they always have the picture of like the 290 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:44,480 Speaker 1: politician they don't like, and then the music changes and 291 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:46,240 Speaker 1: it goes like black and white and then it like 292 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:51,080 Speaker 1: fades into red and it's like, Uh. Diane Bravawowitz wants 293 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:56,879 Speaker 1: you to believe that she cares about libraries, but in 294 00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:01,120 Speaker 1: two thousands and seventeen she was caught walking past one 295 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 1: without going inside. Like if you vote for blah blah blah, 296 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:09,320 Speaker 1: then you tell librarians like, how would you do that 297 00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 1: with an almond? Um? Almonds want you to think that 298 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:18,680 Speaker 1: they make the best milk and they're good for your 299 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 1: body and your environment. Uh, but psych or no, no, no, 300 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:31,760 Speaker 1: no no no, Then they go but almond doesn't want 301 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 1: you to know that it's got a drinking problem, serious 302 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 1: drinking problem. It got caught in drinking up eight percent 303 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 1: of all California's water. Yeah, exactly like a vote for 304 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:51,480 Speaker 1: almonds is a vote for deserts. Uh like. The The 305 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 1: thing is that these tactics, while they can be misleading 306 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:57,800 Speaker 1: in while they're certainly not always made in good faith, 307 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:01,399 Speaker 1: that doesn't mean the stuff that there's a is not true. 308 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:05,960 Speaker 1: And especially when we're talking about something as interconnected and 309 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:09,639 Speaker 1: as vital as a water system, have to realize that 310 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 1: there are a lot of people at play, and there 311 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 1: are a lot of people who are unknowingly participating in this. 312 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:20,440 Speaker 1: Because when you're talking about water production in California and 313 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:24,400 Speaker 1: how much water goes into the creation of an egg, right, 314 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 1: or a hammer or whatever, we also have to realize 315 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:31,320 Speaker 1: that isn't all staying in California shipped to other places, 316 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 1: which means that these problems or these this controversy surrounding 317 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:39,960 Speaker 1: almonds probably affects you in some way. Even if you 318 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:43,600 Speaker 1: don't live in California, and even if you don't eat almonds, 319 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:46,280 Speaker 1: even if you got like an analogy, it's still going 320 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 1: to affect you. In some way, So I think this 321 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:54,800 Speaker 1: is worth exploring further nuts about Milt. Thank you so 322 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:58,480 Speaker 1: much for this excellent letter. And this is not obviously 323 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 1: with this is not a hit piece, Matt. I think 324 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:06,440 Speaker 1: you did a fantastic job of outlining some of the 325 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:09,960 Speaker 1: things that are getting missed in a lot of the 326 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:14,680 Speaker 1: true and anti almond headlines. Oh man, I yeah, I 327 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:17,520 Speaker 1: couldn't agree more. Really appreciate you sending this message to us. 328 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:20,160 Speaker 1: I am. I mentioned a thing right before the break here. 329 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:23,040 Speaker 1: I've got another article I want people to look up. 330 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:26,680 Speaker 1: They're they're actually there's two. One is from the Guardian. 331 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:30,880 Speaker 1: The title is like sending bees to war The deadly 332 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:34,440 Speaker 1: truth behind your almond milk obsession, which is a whole 333 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:37,359 Speaker 1: different take if you get out of the water discussion 334 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 1: and you look at fungicides, pesticides, what almond, the things 335 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:44,080 Speaker 1: that you need to make almonds, what that can do 336 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 1: to be populations, or what it is the effects that 337 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:50,680 Speaker 1: that industry seems to be having on the populations as 338 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:54,040 Speaker 1: well as a Popular Science article that came out in 339 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:57,520 Speaker 1: seventeen titled the almond milk craze could be bad news 340 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:00,880 Speaker 1: for bees. Again, they're looking at funges sides here, they're 341 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:04,960 Speaker 1: looking at just several of the major issues, and really 342 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:09,920 Speaker 1: it's the pesticide problem and other herbicides, anything that you'd 343 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:12,959 Speaker 1: use to kill something that you don't want in an 344 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:17,080 Speaker 1: agricultural process. These have been problems for a long time 345 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 1: since we figured out how to use them. I mean, 346 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:23,160 Speaker 1: we've got you think about roundup TM or whatever are 347 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:28,560 Speaker 1: It was specifically developed to kill things every really as 348 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 1: many things as it can while keeping the seed and 349 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:35,399 Speaker 1: the plant alive because the seed got genetically modified so 350 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:38,240 Speaker 1: it wouldn't get hurt by the pesticide. Also, shout out 351 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:42,880 Speaker 1: to neo nicotinoids, a huge killer be populations. Everybody said 352 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 1: we were crazy and conspiratorial, and while those two things 353 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:50,359 Speaker 1: maybe in some part correct, we were also correct about 354 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:54,320 Speaker 1: neo nicotinoids. And so that's just one kind of pesticide 355 00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:58,120 Speaker 1: that spells trouble and quite possibly doom for the capital 356 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:03,480 Speaker 1: t or depopulation. Yes, yes to or do, but yeah, 357 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:06,920 Speaker 1: do check this out. Let us know your take. Love 358 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:09,760 Speaker 1: to hear from an almond farmers when we're working in 359 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:14,240 Speaker 1: the industry as well, because as we mentioned, trade groups 360 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:17,720 Speaker 1: associated with almonds are are quick to point out that 361 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:21,920 Speaker 1: they feel the issue has been mischaracterized. You know what 362 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:24,240 Speaker 1: I mean, Well, yeah, I mean that we're gonna stop 363 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:26,320 Speaker 1: talking about this now, I promise you. It's just just 364 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:29,200 Speaker 1: through all those articles that we've cited today, where would 365 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:31,080 Speaker 1: I just gave you tiny bits and pieces from all 366 00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 1: of them, you can clearly see how there's confusion. There 367 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:42,040 Speaker 1: seems to be confusion and or disinformation, misinformation that's that's 368 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:44,720 Speaker 1: being put out there. Whether again as that that one 369 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:48,199 Speaker 1: article stated, whether the writers of the articles realize it 370 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:50,920 Speaker 1: or not. Yeah, I'd also like to recommend, just from 371 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:53,879 Speaker 1: more perspective, checking out an article in The New Republic, 372 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:59,920 Speaker 1: also written by Tom Pilpott with Julia Lurie December of en. 373 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:02,480 Speaker 1: They talked about the real problem with almonds, and they're 374 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 1: the ones who mentioned something a lot of folks may 375 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:08,320 Speaker 1: not have been thinking about, which is, are we moving 376 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:13,200 Speaker 1: water we ship almonds to other countries? Is this resource extraction? 377 00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 1: But we'll get to that in the future, and in 378 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,480 Speaker 1: the meantime, you know, shout out to everybody who's like, guys, 379 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:23,320 Speaker 1: I get it, there are problems in every big industry, 380 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:29,320 Speaker 1: but I love almonds. Dudes. You could even say, like normally, 381 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:31,919 Speaker 1: I'm I'm street lace. You know, I don't drink, I 382 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:35,080 Speaker 1: don't smoke kind of vices except for almonds. I am 383 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:38,920 Speaker 1: straight up addicted to a good almond, you know, put 384 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:40,879 Speaker 1: it in milk, put in paste, make it, make it 385 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:43,679 Speaker 1: a part of a confection. And I am in buddy, 386 00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:47,000 Speaker 1: are some kind of I don't know the Chinese cuisine. 387 00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 1: Let's do that. I'm down throw almonds in there. Yeah. Addiction, 388 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:54,920 Speaker 1: that's something we talked about. That's our that's our segue 389 00:24:55,080 --> 00:25:01,760 Speaker 1: word off. I thought I was a uh any any 390 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:05,800 Speaker 1: missteps in that segway or mind. But we had recently 391 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:09,320 Speaker 1: done an episode based on something we talked about in 392 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:13,360 Speaker 1: a strange news segment, which was the nature of addiction 393 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:17,200 Speaker 1: and video games, and Matt, you were sorely missed from 394 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 1: this episode. Hope we did you proud. Uh. It's something 395 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:23,159 Speaker 1: that we got a lot of response from and as always, 396 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:26,600 Speaker 1: we're very fortunate to have our fellow conspiracy realists from 397 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:30,359 Speaker 1: all walks of life weighing in. And what we'd like 398 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:34,200 Speaker 1: to do now is share with you an email that 399 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:39,640 Speaker 1: we all we all read uh with wrapped attention. This 400 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:43,480 Speaker 1: is something that NOL especially wanted to get out there, 401 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:47,320 Speaker 1: and so we're thinking we could read this letter to 402 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 1: you in full and then maybe just talk a little 403 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:54,720 Speaker 1: bit more about it. This email is called Gaming Addiction. 404 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:57,240 Speaker 1: It comes to us from Ali and Matt. I was 405 00:25:57,280 --> 00:25:59,800 Speaker 1: thinking you and I can kind of round robin this one. 406 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,920 Speaker 1: Let's do it. Do you want me to guest started? Okay, 407 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:07,199 Speaker 1: here we go. Ali says, Hey, guys, are just finished 408 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:09,560 Speaker 1: listening to the episode on gaming addiction, and I wanted 409 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:11,960 Speaker 1: to reach out regarding some of the things you'll mentioned. 410 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:15,159 Speaker 1: I work in the addiction treatment field, and I specialize 411 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:21,120 Speaker 1: in working with process addictions. That's process addictions such as gaming, pornography, 412 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:24,360 Speaker 1: and sex. First of all, thank you for tackling such 413 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:28,120 Speaker 1: a difficult subject. At one point, you talked about psychological 414 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:32,439 Speaker 1: addiction versus physical addiction and the different ways those can manifest. 415 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:35,960 Speaker 1: Just to clarify, even if a behavior like gaming does 416 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:39,600 Speaker 1: not create a physical dependency on a substance external to 417 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:42,960 Speaker 1: the body like heroin or alcohol, there is still a 418 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:47,440 Speaker 1: very real detox process from these behaviors. And Ali goes 419 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:52,160 Speaker 1: on to say withdrawal from process addictions feels very similar 420 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:55,920 Speaker 1: to cocaine withdrawal and notes this can also be true 421 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,760 Speaker 1: of heavy marijuana use, which absolutely creates a physical dependence. 422 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,080 Speaker 1: The idea that th HC is not physically addictive has 423 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:07,359 Speaker 1: been largely abandoned by the medical community. Ali says, though 424 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:11,240 Speaker 1: the symptoms may seem much milder than a substance they create, 425 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,399 Speaker 1: she's referring to symptoms of video game addiction. They create 426 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:20,159 Speaker 1: significant distress. The most common withdrawal symptoms are insomnia, anxiety, depression, 427 00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:23,879 Speaker 1: and irritability. Throw in night sweats too. If we're talking 428 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:26,960 Speaker 1: about marijuana, this may not seem like a big deal, 429 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:30,399 Speaker 1: but the anxiety and depression can reach debilitating levels for 430 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:34,359 Speaker 1: some people, and in especially tough cases, to last up 431 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,480 Speaker 1: to two years after the behavior stops. Let me amend 432 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,440 Speaker 1: that I think Ali here is talking not just about 433 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:44,360 Speaker 1: a gaming addiction, but process addiction exactly. I think that's 434 00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:47,880 Speaker 1: the umbrella under which all of this is sitting. Then 435 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:51,000 Speaker 1: Ali continues, while I agree with your premise that it 436 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:54,520 Speaker 1: is absolutely possible to enjoy gaming in a healthy way, 437 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:57,199 Speaker 1: and that some people are leaning towards a moral panic 438 00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:00,720 Speaker 1: in this arena, gaming addiction is all so a very 439 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:04,119 Speaker 1: real struggle for some, a struggle that all too often 440 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:09,960 Speaker 1: gets overlooked, downplayed, or ridiculed. Yeah, and continues to say 441 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:14,240 Speaker 1: right now. Process addiction treatment is the fastest growing area 442 00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 1: of study and service provision in the treatment industry. Side note, 443 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:20,840 Speaker 1: I loved your episode on the rehab industry. I've worked 444 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:23,720 Speaker 1: with both ethical and non ethical treatment providers and could 445 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:26,119 Speaker 1: stay on my soapbox all day about the craziness that 446 00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:29,440 Speaker 1: goes on in some places. However, despite the growing need 447 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 1: for clinicians who understand and can help with process addictions, 448 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:36,880 Speaker 1: the American healthcare system seriously impedes people's ability to get 449 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:40,440 Speaker 1: help if they are not financially well off. Insurance companies 450 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:44,040 Speaker 1: will not cover treatment for process addictions alone, and individual 451 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:47,719 Speaker 1: therapists who address these issues often do not accept insurance 452 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:50,720 Speaker 1: and charge a rate that is unaffordable for many. Unless 453 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:53,920 Speaker 1: someone can afford the astronomical self pay rates for treatment, 454 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:57,280 Speaker 1: or they also have co occurring substance use or mental 455 00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:00,200 Speaker 1: health issues. There are not many routes for p bull 456 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:06,000 Speaker 1: without means to seek professional help. Yeah, it's it's true. Unfortunately, 457 00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:10,240 Speaker 1: Fortunately ALI continues. The pure recovery world for process addictions 458 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:13,920 Speaker 1: is also growing, with groups like online gamers, Anonymous sex 459 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:17,520 Speaker 1: and Love Addicts, anonymous and gamblers anonymous. Many more people 460 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:19,959 Speaker 1: are able to get help than ever before. I know 461 00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:22,080 Speaker 1: that was a lot, but I just wanted to chime 462 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:23,880 Speaker 1: in and let you all know about some of the 463 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:28,560 Speaker 1: additional complications that can go along with treating addictions like gaming. 464 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 1: Thanks probably do Ali. So this is a lot of information, 465 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 1: and we wanted to We wanted to give you the direct, 466 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:44,720 Speaker 1: verbatim words because Ali here is an expert and we 467 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:50,600 Speaker 1: know that we know that this potential exists, and we 468 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 1: talked at length about some of the problems with trying 469 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:58,080 Speaker 1: to address the possibility of addiction, because what are you 470 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:00,560 Speaker 1: gonna You're gonna make some kind of big other law 471 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 1: that says, hey, video game creators, you have to make 472 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,720 Speaker 1: your games less good, you know what I mean, start 473 00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:12,560 Speaker 1: sucking a little more legally. But like, that's an oversimplification, 474 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:17,000 Speaker 1: but it is. It is very true that addiction is 475 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:20,200 Speaker 1: is a real thing, and it can take many many forms. 476 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:23,040 Speaker 1: It's not, as we said before, it is not a 477 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:26,840 Speaker 1: moral failing of any sort. But in the case of 478 00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:31,800 Speaker 1: something like video gaming, while it has precedence right gambling 479 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:34,720 Speaker 1: for instance, Uh, the fact of the matter is that 480 00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:37,720 Speaker 1: in many ways this is a newer technology in the 481 00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:40,720 Speaker 1: grand scheme of things, and so there's still a lot 482 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:42,800 Speaker 1: of research to be done and a lot of things 483 00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:45,280 Speaker 1: to learn, which is why this is such a quickly 484 00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:47,840 Speaker 1: growing area of study. It is it is weird to 485 00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:53,200 Speaker 1: imagine gaming in most not all instances as gambling, but 486 00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:57,040 Speaker 1: without using any money and without the possibility of winning 487 00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:01,200 Speaker 1: any money. Yes. Yeah, it's like if you've ever if 488 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:03,680 Speaker 1: you've depending on where you live in the world, um, 489 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:06,080 Speaker 1: if you've ever been in a gas station, may have 490 00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:09,600 Speaker 1: seen some things that look very much like, you know, 491 00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 1: electronic slot machines, and and sometimes they have a big 492 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:15,880 Speaker 1: sign over them, at least in Georgia, where they say 493 00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:20,240 Speaker 1: it's illegal for these games to result in actual money, 494 00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:23,040 Speaker 1: at which point the question becomes, why are you what 495 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:28,160 Speaker 1: motivates you? Is it the dopamine release from playing the game? 496 00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:31,960 Speaker 1: Because people in general psychologically love to feel that we 497 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:36,040 Speaker 1: have navigated rules successfully in a way that results in rewards. 498 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:40,120 Speaker 1: The species is so into this, in fact, that sometimes 499 00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:43,200 Speaker 1: the nature of the reward doesn't matter. Dude, what what 500 00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:47,480 Speaker 1: is the reward in a gas station slot machine? Thing? 501 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:51,280 Speaker 1: Is it? Like? I wonder if it's store credit? So 502 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:54,959 Speaker 1: maybe I don't know, maybe I did know of an 503 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:58,800 Speaker 1: illegal gambling den in a gas station here in Atlanta, 504 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:02,000 Speaker 1: and they had they had the other slot things in 505 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:05,560 Speaker 1: the front as kind of a red Harry, but in 506 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:09,840 Speaker 1: the back, you know, as poker at all hours. I 507 00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:14,000 Speaker 1: did not participate. I literally saw the door open one day. 508 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 1: One of the guys who worked there was like, Oh, yeah, man, 509 00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:21,440 Speaker 1: don't tell anybody, but that's that's where the big money moves. 510 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:23,280 Speaker 1: Still to this day, I wonder what was on the 511 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:26,719 Speaker 1: other side of that door. But but Matt, one thing 512 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:29,280 Speaker 1: that was interesting about this too, when we talked about 513 00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:32,720 Speaker 1: the nature of a reward in a process addiction is 514 00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:35,840 Speaker 1: um We talked in the earlier episode a little bit 515 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:41,760 Speaker 1: about badges and achievements and trophies and video games, and 516 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:45,000 Speaker 1: those are our brains recognized those as rewards, even if 517 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:47,720 Speaker 1: they're not something we were expecting, right, Like, what's weird 518 00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:50,080 Speaker 1: trophy you got? And then well, we gotta I know, 519 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:51,800 Speaker 1: we've got to go to a commercial break, But I'm 520 00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:55,320 Speaker 1: so interested in your experience, like, what what is a 521 00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:57,640 Speaker 1: strange trophy you've got? And you as well, Doc, what's 522 00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:01,800 Speaker 1: the weirdest trophy weird for achievement or you know, whatever 523 00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 1: they call them. I can't think of a really great one. 524 00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:08,040 Speaker 1: I dude, I've been playing way too much Minecraft, which 525 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:12,600 Speaker 1: you want to talk about an addictive game? God uh 526 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:14,680 Speaker 1: to to you know? By my son and I've been 527 00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:17,240 Speaker 1: playing a lot, and it's just I think I got one. 528 00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:21,160 Speaker 1: I got one recently because I did something ridiculous. I 529 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:22,840 Speaker 1: don't know. It had to do with my death. I 530 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:25,400 Speaker 1: died in a way that I didn't expect to die, 531 00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:27,840 Speaker 1: and it was like, hey, you gotta achieve may congratulations. 532 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:31,840 Speaker 1: You suck if he's some kind of Darwood award. All right, 533 00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:34,720 Speaker 1: Uh well, we're gonna pause for word from our sponsor 534 00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:37,680 Speaker 1: and we'll be back with another piece of correspondence from 535 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:42,360 Speaker 1: your fellow conspiracy realist. But we're going to dive further 536 00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:53,120 Speaker 1: into the topic of gaming and addiction. And we're back. Ben. 537 00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:56,880 Speaker 1: I just found out what what it was called. It 538 00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:00,320 Speaker 1: wasn't I described it incorrectly. It was the ing my 539 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:03,320 Speaker 1: son show me called a totem of undying, and I 540 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:05,960 Speaker 1: got it because I completed a raid. Some people will 541 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:08,400 Speaker 1: know what that is. My son was very excited about 542 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:11,799 Speaker 1: this and it looks like a doll and I was. 543 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:14,080 Speaker 1: I had it when I died and it said I 544 00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:18,800 Speaker 1: cheated death. So there you go. That was my weird achievement. Well, congratulations, Matt, 545 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:22,920 Speaker 1: you've cheated deathfient. You got an award for it and everything, 546 00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:27,800 Speaker 1: and uh, I think it is amazing though, because again, 547 00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:31,359 Speaker 1: even if we're not asking for those things consciously, when 548 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:35,120 Speaker 1: we get an achievement, it often feels like, you know, 549 00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:37,160 Speaker 1: the way you would feel if you've got a trophy 550 00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:40,520 Speaker 1: in real life. Yeah, totally. For me, it's about an upgrade. 551 00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:43,799 Speaker 1: If I can upgrade something, no matter what it is 552 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:46,239 Speaker 1: in a video game, I'm gonna seek that out and 553 00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:50,640 Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna upgrade. I'm gonna get resources until 554 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:53,719 Speaker 1: I've got way too many, and I'm gonna just keep 555 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:57,600 Speaker 1: upgrading until i can't anymore. And I'm everything all about 556 00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:01,879 Speaker 1: the grind, all about the grind. Yeah, it's that. It's 557 00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:04,920 Speaker 1: a stinging box. Yeah, it feels like you're really getting 558 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:08,359 Speaker 1: something done. It feels like you're checking boxes, you know, 559 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:11,280 Speaker 1: But it's just in a virtual world and it probably 560 00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:15,239 Speaker 1: doesn't matter. Well, I mean, what is this world? Right? 561 00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:23,359 Speaker 1: We want to just jump into that? Okay, all right? Well, 562 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:26,560 Speaker 1: well well, um that's it is a great question, and 563 00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:32,839 Speaker 1: there are compelling studies about neurochemistry which can give us 564 00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:36,759 Speaker 1: a solid explanation of why the human brain doesn't really 565 00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:41,000 Speaker 1: differentiate between uh some I R L award and some 566 00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:46,040 Speaker 1: digital award. And with this we go to a fantastic 567 00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:50,600 Speaker 1: email from fit bit Lady who asked us is fit 568 00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:54,040 Speaker 1: fit a gaming system? Here we go, Hey, guys, love 569 00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:57,440 Speaker 1: the show. I'm currently listening to our video games Addictive 570 00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:00,399 Speaker 1: and you were discussing badges and such, and it got 571 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:04,080 Speaker 1: me thinking, I am not a gamer. I have zero time. 572 00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:06,640 Speaker 1: I'm a mom of three kids in three different grade 573 00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:10,040 Speaker 1: levels who do not give me any me time. My oldest, 574 00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:13,920 Speaker 1: who was fourteen years old, does game regularly. Anyways, you 575 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:16,920 Speaker 1: were discussing the reward system used in video games, and 576 00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:19,680 Speaker 1: it made me realize that I am certainly a reward 577 00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:23,200 Speaker 1: driven human. I wear my fit bit religiously to track 578 00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:25,879 Speaker 1: my steps, and I get so excited when I win 579 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:28,680 Speaker 1: a challenge or get a badge. I'm currently on a 580 00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:31,640 Speaker 1: step streak where I've gotten my steps seven days in 581 00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:34,560 Speaker 1: a row, and I was up late last night pacing 582 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:36,720 Speaker 1: around the room to make sure I get my steps 583 00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:39,279 Speaker 1: for the day. Am I using my health tracking app 584 00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:42,800 Speaker 1: the same way that gamers use their game system. Very interesting, 585 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:48,279 Speaker 1: signed fit bit lady, what do you think Yeah, the 586 00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:52,239 Speaker 1: answer is yes, fbl The answer is yes, uh, and 587 00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:56,759 Speaker 1: that is by design. This is something that Matt, you 588 00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,560 Speaker 1: and I back in the day had some first hand 589 00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:04,160 Speaker 1: experience udence with. It's a technique known as gamification, and 590 00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:13,240 Speaker 1: gamification is this brilliant, if not always um considerate method 591 00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:17,319 Speaker 1: of taking elements from any kind of game, the most 592 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:21,600 Speaker 1: general ideas of how you would define a game, and 593 00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:26,160 Speaker 1: taking those elements and putting them into a non game situation. 594 00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:29,960 Speaker 1: So how do we define a game? Those are things like, 595 00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:33,840 Speaker 1: let's see, competition is a big one, right, um. And 596 00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:36,800 Speaker 1: then there are things like even if you're competing with 597 00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:40,759 Speaker 1: yourself like in solitaire, and then there are rewards, right, 598 00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:44,200 Speaker 1: and there are punishments or consequences. You know, it's still 599 00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:47,160 Speaker 1: taking the skinner vibe and putting it into things that 600 00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:51,400 Speaker 1: ordinarily may not have had that. Uh. What what do 601 00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:54,319 Speaker 1: you think are some good examples of gamification other than 602 00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:58,840 Speaker 1: fit that. You're absolutely right fit that lady, It is gamified. Sure. 603 00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:03,200 Speaker 1: A lot of the apps that I have tried out, 604 00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:06,600 Speaker 1: like newer apps that i've attempted in the past. Ones 605 00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:09,320 Speaker 1: that have to do with ordering food, with getting a ride. 606 00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:14,840 Speaker 1: A lot of those have small examples of gamification within them, 607 00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:18,360 Speaker 1: where you can get small rewards for using them in 608 00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:21,040 Speaker 1: a certain way or for ordering at a certain time 609 00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:24,040 Speaker 1: we're going for certain distance. The biggest one for me 610 00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:27,480 Speaker 1: in my world right now, my son just started kindergarten 611 00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:32,719 Speaker 1: and we signed up for an app titled class Dojo, 612 00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:36,200 Speaker 1: and the entire school system where he goes is using 613 00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:42,080 Speaker 1: it and on here the teachers throughout a day. Obviously, 614 00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:43,600 Speaker 1: I'm I just opened it up to check it out. 615 00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:45,480 Speaker 1: While I'm talking about it, I have to make sure 616 00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:49,759 Speaker 1: my notifications are all good cool um. Throughout the day. 617 00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,760 Speaker 1: His teacher when he's in class will give him points 618 00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:59,959 Speaker 1: and you can get positive points, neutral points, or negative points. 619 00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:06,239 Speaker 1: And uh, at least I've only seen positive points right now, 620 00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:09,319 Speaker 1: because as they begin the school year, they only give 621 00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:13,200 Speaker 1: the kids positive points as they learn it, at least 622 00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:16,680 Speaker 1: for the for the kindergarten level kids. Uh. And also 623 00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:18,839 Speaker 1: as the parents learned the app and everything. But then 624 00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:22,680 Speaker 1: the parents here's where it's super gamified. Been the parents 625 00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:25,759 Speaker 1: take it home and when the when your child is 626 00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:29,000 Speaker 1: save reading you can give him a point for reading 627 00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:32,760 Speaker 1: if he's listening and paying attention to give him a point. 628 00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:36,040 Speaker 1: Did he eat? Is he eating? Is he doing eating 629 00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:41,080 Speaker 1: his vegetables or whatever? Yeah? Did he help dad build 630 00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:46,040 Speaker 1: a Minecraft world? Negative points? You're giving him negative points? No, 631 00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:49,719 Speaker 1: I didn't do it. The system knows. It's like it's 632 00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:54,440 Speaker 1: like you're playing a video game. That's no, that's negative points. Yeah, 633 00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:59,120 Speaker 1: this is that's startling. How do you feel about that? Uh, 634 00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:01,760 Speaker 1: it's so new still, I guess for you guys, well, 635 00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:09,560 Speaker 1: it's weird. Um. I love that I can encourage him, 636 00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:11,799 Speaker 1: like if he was really into the app and killing 637 00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:13,960 Speaker 1: about it. I would love to be able to give 638 00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:16,960 Speaker 1: him some problems for doing something right, especially when it 639 00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:20,560 Speaker 1: comes to you know, attention based things and things that 640 00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:24,520 Speaker 1: really require his focus. Um. I would love to be 641 00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:27,600 Speaker 1: able to do that. But he doesn't care. Does he 642 00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:31,000 Speaker 1: get prizes there? Yeah? There are there are things that 643 00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:34,399 Speaker 1: the school will do associated with your levels. I think 644 00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:37,719 Speaker 1: I don't know. Well, I mean you had book it. 645 00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:42,080 Speaker 1: We had book it. Yeah, book it was like read 646 00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:44,720 Speaker 1: X amount of books and then you get a personal 647 00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:47,000 Speaker 1: pan pizza And I'll be honest with you, at the time, 648 00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:49,239 Speaker 1: it was the best pizza I ever I ever eight 649 00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:53,000 Speaker 1: because it so you know, I think that happens with 650 00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:54,719 Speaker 1: a lot of kids. I was so into myself. I 651 00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:57,520 Speaker 1: was like a proto Kogy West about it. You know 652 00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:01,320 Speaker 1: what I mean, step aside other pet pizza hut buying 653 00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:04,239 Speaker 1: pizza with your money, dude. That's why we're here. That's 654 00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:06,720 Speaker 1: why we're making this show because we were both book 655 00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:12,880 Speaker 1: it like things, kids are things somewhere in between. Before 656 00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:16,640 Speaker 1: the bee drops, let's continue. So the this is happening 657 00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:21,120 Speaker 1: fitbit lady, and this is something that is not again, 658 00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:25,320 Speaker 1: it's not inherently sinister, but we know that it drives 659 00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:29,960 Speaker 1: engagement because human beings like to play. You get points. 660 00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:32,840 Speaker 1: That's one of the defining elements of things that have 661 00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:36,440 Speaker 1: been gamified. You can get those badges, those achievements. You 662 00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:40,000 Speaker 1: might have something like a leaderboard which says it like 663 00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:42,279 Speaker 1: in any app. Let's say I'll just make something up. 664 00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:45,560 Speaker 1: Let's say you had a well I love the idea 665 00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:48,600 Speaker 1: of a food delivery app, and the food delivery app 666 00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:51,000 Speaker 1: is giving you points, and those the reward you get 667 00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:54,120 Speaker 1: ultimately is like a small discount, right, You get like 668 00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:57,880 Speaker 1: five percent offer, maybe even ten percent offers something and 669 00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:02,960 Speaker 1: let's say in addition to that leaderboard, and they're like, congratulations, 670 00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:06,279 Speaker 1: you've moved up to level four. And you might not 671 00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:09,160 Speaker 1: know what level four is in this context, but then 672 00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:12,080 Speaker 1: a leaderboard pops up and you're like, oh, level four 673 00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:15,319 Speaker 1: means in a two mile radius, I am the fort 674 00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:19,880 Speaker 1: most most influential user of this food delivery app. And 675 00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:22,480 Speaker 1: then for some people that's an immediate trigger to be 676 00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:24,600 Speaker 1: like no, no, no no, no, no, no no no, I 677 00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:28,919 Speaker 1: am level three at the very least, like that's that's 678 00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:31,520 Speaker 1: how it works. And then you can see a lot 679 00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:35,480 Speaker 1: of analytical data, right, performance graphs, how many steps did 680 00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:38,279 Speaker 1: you take? Right? How many times did you order from 681 00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:41,359 Speaker 1: this restaurant? Or how many miles did you drive? How 682 00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:45,120 Speaker 1: many accidents did you report for your fellow users? Right? Uh? 683 00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:48,000 Speaker 1: And then this builds a meaningful story about you. You 684 00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:51,520 Speaker 1: have a little version of you that you can customize sometimes, 685 00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:53,920 Speaker 1: and you might have competitors, but you can also have 686 00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:57,719 Speaker 1: people you team up with to cooperate with. So it's 687 00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:01,680 Speaker 1: founded a lot of things that may not ordinarily occur 688 00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:05,000 Speaker 1: to people, like a driving app, you know, apps are 689 00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:08,920 Speaker 1: crazy about this, but also simple, simpler, analog things like 690 00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:13,319 Speaker 1: book it, and the argument for something like fitbit, there 691 00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:16,520 Speaker 1: any health tracking app like this, is that this gamification, 692 00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:21,800 Speaker 1: because it keeps you engaged, helps you beat the statistics, 693 00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:27,600 Speaker 1: which usually the statistics for consistent use or consistent exercise. 694 00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:32,200 Speaker 1: Really uh, they often dip, right, It's the famous January 695 00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:36,720 Speaker 1: February dip post New Year, but it plays out pretty often. 696 00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:41,320 Speaker 1: So this is something in this case that is meant 697 00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:44,560 Speaker 1: to help users, but at the same time it is 698 00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:48,200 Speaker 1: meant to keep them plugged into the game. And I 699 00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:51,440 Speaker 1: think in the future, I think the future is gamification 700 00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:54,560 Speaker 1: or an increased frequency of it. Did we did you 701 00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:59,000 Speaker 1: guys bring up social media gamification? Maybe a little bit, 702 00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:01,759 Speaker 1: but let's let's talk about it now. Yeah. I think 703 00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:07,680 Speaker 1: we've talked about this before. And on any social media 704 00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:11,000 Speaker 1: there's the like, there's the heart, there's the all that stuff, 705 00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:13,680 Speaker 1: and there's the things you can do. And while you 706 00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:16,719 Speaker 1: don't get an achievement in the way you would on 707 00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:21,360 Speaker 1: an Xbox or something, your achievement is seeing some number 708 00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:25,000 Speaker 1: grow and just knowing that whatever you did is more 709 00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:28,600 Speaker 1: and more popular and more and more popular or or 710 00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:31,560 Speaker 1: nobody cares at all, which is an achievement in itself. 711 00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:36,640 Speaker 1: And there's another version of social media, online dating apps. 712 00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:38,799 Speaker 1: I'd love for everybody who wants to learn more about 713 00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:41,120 Speaker 1: this to read an article and wire by Nancy Joe's 714 00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:44,680 Speaker 1: sales called online dating apps are actually kind of a disaster, 715 00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:49,600 Speaker 1: and it's it's a huge industry. But these apps also 716 00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:53,280 Speaker 1: are gamified, you know what I mean, Like, there's something 717 00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:58,920 Speaker 1: about the payoff that happens when you when oh my gosh, 718 00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:02,840 Speaker 1: somebody also swiped on me. They like me. I have 719 00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:07,240 Speaker 1: value in a social context, which is people probably don't 720 00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:10,719 Speaker 1: maybe think about it in those transparent of terms. But 721 00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:14,759 Speaker 1: we know that this is gamification at work. We know 722 00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:18,640 Speaker 1: that there are is a lot of thought put into 723 00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:25,080 Speaker 1: the controversies surrounding gamification. If you like to read um, 724 00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:27,759 Speaker 1: if you like to read papers that do a good 725 00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:31,520 Speaker 1: job of giving the lay of the land. Um. There 726 00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:34,440 Speaker 1: was one I found called a critique in Defense of 727 00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:39,239 Speaker 1: Gamification by Erin Chia Yuan Hong, and this is free 728 00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:43,440 Speaker 1: to read online. It was published in and the Journal 729 00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:48,719 Speaker 1: of Interactive Online Learning. And the entire argument here is that, yes, 730 00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:52,440 Speaker 1: these pitfalls may exist right even to the point of addiction, 731 00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:57,839 Speaker 1: you know, but that gamification overall is beneficial because get 732 00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:01,040 Speaker 1: this reminds me of your story from just a second ago. 733 00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:07,080 Speaker 1: Gamification is a way to improve student engagement, motivation, attendance, 734 00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:12,000 Speaker 1: and academic performance. So the idea is, um, if you 735 00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:15,279 Speaker 1: look at a cost benefit analysis of this, overall, it 736 00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:17,759 Speaker 1: would be a good thing. But what what would you 737 00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:23,040 Speaker 1: see as some of the controversies criticisms surrounding gamification. I mean, 738 00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:26,000 Speaker 1: I'm interesting. Well, for me, the biggest criticism is just 739 00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:31,680 Speaker 1: keeping the users, the individual users mind in a constant 740 00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:35,279 Speaker 1: state of need two do the next thing, or to 741 00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:38,719 Speaker 1: get another thing, to get that dopamine hit. Um, that's 742 00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:42,400 Speaker 1: the that's the scariest thing. The most positive thing is 743 00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:46,719 Speaker 1: that it's true if I if I got something in 744 00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:50,279 Speaker 1: my house, I completed a chore outside, I mowed the 745 00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:52,160 Speaker 1: law and let's say, and it's like I walk in 746 00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:56,040 Speaker 1: the house and he goes and just lets me know 747 00:46:56,120 --> 00:46:59,960 Speaker 1: how you you mowed the lawn. Great job. I'd be like, cool. 748 00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:03,160 Speaker 1: And then it's like, you've mowed the lawn five times 749 00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:06,359 Speaker 1: in the past two months. You know, Like if that 750 00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:08,600 Speaker 1: was a thing, that'd be great. I'd be like, man, 751 00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:10,560 Speaker 1: I'm gonna mow the lawn again. I'm excited next time 752 00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:15,560 Speaker 1: I mow the lawn. You paid your mortgage and you 753 00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:18,600 Speaker 1: can and and like a kitching sound, you know, and 754 00:47:18,719 --> 00:47:22,920 Speaker 1: this this can nudge you toward behaviors. Right. We can't 755 00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:25,240 Speaker 1: be the only people who are thinking of the sesame 756 00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:27,880 Speaker 1: or social credit system in China. That's one of the 757 00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:30,200 Speaker 1: first things I thought of that in book it when 758 00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:33,480 Speaker 1: I heard what's what's happening in that kindergarten? Um gad. 759 00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:38,280 Speaker 1: It's not necessarily a bad thing. It's like any other technology. 760 00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:40,279 Speaker 1: It's it's all in the way it's used. We do 761 00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:43,520 Speaker 1: need to mention dopamine. This goes back to the dopamine 762 00:47:43,520 --> 00:47:47,600 Speaker 1: we talked about briefly in that episode. But dopamine is 763 00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:52,600 Speaker 1: a neurotransmitter. There are other types of neurotransmitters. All all 764 00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:55,800 Speaker 1: that really means is there's a chemical and this chemical 765 00:47:55,840 --> 00:47:58,920 Speaker 1: is a messenger that takes a signal from a neuron 766 00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:02,319 Speaker 1: across the side apps to another target cell, which could 767 00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:04,759 Speaker 1: be a couple of different types of cells. Why is 768 00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:09,600 Speaker 1: dopamine a special neurotransmitter Because it feels so good, it 769 00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:13,200 Speaker 1: feels so nice. It activates the pleasure center and human brains, 770 00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:16,840 Speaker 1: and it also has a part to play in your focus, 771 00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:21,000 Speaker 1: your attention, how you learn, how you're coordinated, how you're working, 772 00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:25,640 Speaker 1: memory operates, and it gives you this pleasurable feeling when 773 00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:30,760 Speaker 1: you have repeated achievements. And that's why, like does gamification 774 00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:34,200 Speaker 1: belong in a workplace, It's in a lot of workplaces, 775 00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:36,719 Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like who's the top sales 776 00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:39,680 Speaker 1: person of the month or the week or the year. 777 00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:42,360 Speaker 1: I don't know. I think it's a powerful technology and 778 00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:46,000 Speaker 1: I think it could do some really amazing things. That 779 00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:49,680 Speaker 1: language apps are huge on gamification, and I'll tell you what. 780 00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:53,800 Speaker 1: I love them, honestly. Let me play a little game 781 00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:59,000 Speaker 1: and I'm learning a new language. That's cool. Like I 782 00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:02,040 Speaker 1: did due, you know, I do some other um slightly 783 00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:06,000 Speaker 1: more specific ones, but yeah, I'll do I'll sit on 784 00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:09,080 Speaker 1: my phone. I'm gonna see the little cartoon dance. You know. 785 00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:11,040 Speaker 1: I want to hear the song, the song that says 786 00:49:11,239 --> 00:49:17,000 Speaker 1: I did well? What was the Rice? One good example. 787 00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:19,320 Speaker 1: I still love Free Rice, man, I still mess with 788 00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:24,520 Speaker 1: Free Rice. Free Rice is a you in affiliated app, 789 00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:26,759 Speaker 1: but you can also play it on your desktop or 790 00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:30,719 Speaker 1: your laptop. And what it does is you guess the 791 00:49:30,840 --> 00:49:34,359 Speaker 1: correct definition for a word and every time you make 792 00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:39,040 Speaker 1: a correct guess, this organization awards like ten grains of 793 00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:42,080 Speaker 1: rice or something to feed people who are living in 794 00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:46,040 Speaker 1: a state of food insecurity. And the difficulty levels up. 795 00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:49,120 Speaker 1: So the first ones are very easy. They're like a 796 00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:53,000 Speaker 1: door is a blank blank blank blank, Yeah, I know 797 00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:56,799 Speaker 1: that I'm here, free rice for everybody. And then you know, 798 00:49:56,920 --> 00:49:58,840 Speaker 1: as you get higher up in the levels, I'm actually 799 00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:01,000 Speaker 1: gonna play that. After we were corp, you've got fun 800 00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:04,200 Speaker 1: that game is. But after after you get to these 801 00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:08,480 Speaker 1: higher levels, then becomes much much more difficult, and each 802 00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:11,399 Speaker 1: time you get something wrong you go down a little bit. 803 00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:15,240 Speaker 1: So it keeps you, it keeps you in that Goldilocks zone, 804 00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:18,479 Speaker 1: and it does does help with vocabulary. But the main 805 00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:21,719 Speaker 1: point of it is this gamification is supposed to be free, 806 00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:26,279 Speaker 1: cause what an excellent example, man. And people have been 807 00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:31,320 Speaker 1: asking about how far gamification will go for a number 808 00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:35,680 Speaker 1: of years now. Uh. One of the earliest examples of 809 00:50:35,719 --> 00:50:40,080 Speaker 1: gamification was something called four square, which some people may remember. 810 00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:44,719 Speaker 1: You would check in at a physical location, right, and 811 00:50:44,760 --> 00:50:47,880 Speaker 1: then if you checked in frequently enough, you became like 812 00:50:48,040 --> 00:50:52,160 Speaker 1: the monarch of that or the mayor whatever authority figure 813 00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:55,759 Speaker 1: of that of that blubbadubbas you know what I mean, 814 00:50:56,560 --> 00:51:01,920 Speaker 1: and your local dunkin Donuts. It is the rain of 815 00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:08,279 Speaker 1: Costco all hail and thinking of other silly titles of 816 00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:13,480 Speaker 1: all hail, the baronets of uh kind of what's the 817 00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:18,800 Speaker 1: store that people just a reference waffle house of waffle house. 818 00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:22,239 Speaker 1: There we go, No, just do it? Keep this whole 819 00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:28,080 Speaker 1: parted u the oh hell the baron of waffle house 820 00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:34,520 Speaker 1: long may syrup pore? Uh Yeah, okay, Well in the context, 821 00:51:34,520 --> 00:51:37,520 Speaker 1: it's not as creepy. But there's an excellent example, and 822 00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:41,520 Speaker 1: it's something that collectively society needs to be aware of 823 00:51:41,640 --> 00:51:46,600 Speaker 1: because it can really put some gas into your learning abilities. 824 00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:49,680 Speaker 1: It can put some gas into people's engagement with an 825 00:51:49,680 --> 00:51:53,760 Speaker 1: idea or a topic, you know. But it can also, 826 00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:56,480 Speaker 1: like you just mentioned in the mowing the law an example, 827 00:51:56,600 --> 00:52:00,440 Speaker 1: it can nudge people towards things and and so cases, 828 00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:02,839 Speaker 1: it can nudge them toward things that are maybe not 829 00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:06,520 Speaker 1: necessarily beneficial and not necessarily things they would have done 830 00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:09,960 Speaker 1: on their own. And that doesn't that is a separate 831 00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:15,719 Speaker 1: issue from addiction. That is pushing people right, and they 832 00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:18,600 Speaker 1: can be related. There is a venn diagram, but but 833 00:52:18,680 --> 00:52:21,799 Speaker 1: it's fascinating and it's something that we'll have to think 834 00:52:21,840 --> 00:52:24,919 Speaker 1: a little bit more about in the future. We're going 835 00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:29,520 Speaker 1: to call it a day for today and we'll be 836 00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:33,960 Speaker 1: back next week with more correspondence from you. As always. 837 00:52:34,239 --> 00:52:37,239 Speaker 1: Thank you so so much to Nuts for Milk, Thank 838 00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:39,200 Speaker 1: you so much to Ali, and thanks so much to 839 00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:42,280 Speaker 1: fbl fitbit Lady. If you want to take a page 840 00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:44,720 Speaker 1: from their book and reach out to us, we can't 841 00:52:44,719 --> 00:52:47,280 Speaker 1: wait to hear from you on your thoughts of droughts, 842 00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:50,759 Speaker 1: on your thoughts of big agriculture and almonds, on your 843 00:52:50,760 --> 00:52:54,200 Speaker 1: thoughts of video game addiction and what the future of 844 00:52:54,239 --> 00:52:56,920 Speaker 1: that might be, and then of course tell us the 845 00:52:57,000 --> 00:53:01,040 Speaker 1: weirdest things that you've found gamified. You know, in the end, 846 00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:03,759 Speaker 1: I I really don't care what achievements I get in 847 00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:07,319 Speaker 1: Minecraft as long as I find another fortress, because I've 848 00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:10,319 Speaker 1: never freaking seen one and I've been trying to find them. 849 00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:12,440 Speaker 1: I'm never gonna get to the end and find the 850 00:53:12,520 --> 00:53:15,600 Speaker 1: dragon if I can't find other fortresses. I don't know 851 00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:19,239 Speaker 1: if that'st even true. I don't. I mean, I'm I'm 852 00:53:19,280 --> 00:53:23,520 Speaker 1: so in because I'm just interested in the world and 853 00:53:23,600 --> 00:53:27,840 Speaker 1: sometimes the specifics of an achievement in in a game 854 00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:30,440 Speaker 1: or a game of Fight System don't really matter. You 855 00:53:30,520 --> 00:53:32,640 Speaker 1: just need to win, you know what I mean, Gus 856 00:53:32,640 --> 00:53:34,719 Speaker 1: feel that way, just wake up. You're like God, I 857 00:53:34,840 --> 00:53:40,200 Speaker 1: just need to feel like I won one thing every day. 858 00:53:40,360 --> 00:53:43,600 Speaker 1: But that's okay, and every night it's okay. We're gonna 859 00:53:43,680 --> 00:53:46,600 Speaker 1: make it through. Your first achievement is to find us 860 00:53:46,680 --> 00:53:49,880 Speaker 1: on social media where on Twitter and Facebook and YouTube 861 00:53:50,120 --> 00:53:53,920 Speaker 1: at Conspiracy Stuff on Instagram. We are Conspiracy Stuff Show. 862 00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:57,400 Speaker 1: If you want to not use social media, you can 863 00:53:57,520 --> 00:54:00,640 Speaker 1: use your phone and your mouth to contact us. It's 864 00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:03,560 Speaker 1: pretty awesome. We have a phone number one eight three 865 00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:07,560 Speaker 1: three st d w y t K. You have three minutes. 866 00:54:07,640 --> 00:54:13,240 Speaker 1: Those three minutes belong to you. Whisper conspiracies or sweet 867 00:54:13,280 --> 00:54:17,120 Speaker 1: nothings into our ears. While you're doing that, give yourself 868 00:54:17,160 --> 00:54:20,160 Speaker 1: a slick nickname. We love those. Tell us what's on 869 00:54:20,200 --> 00:54:24,279 Speaker 1: your mind, and uh, perhaps most importantly, let us know 870 00:54:24,560 --> 00:54:27,560 Speaker 1: if we can use your voice and our message on air. 871 00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:32,160 Speaker 1: But you might say, I don't care for phones. I've 872 00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:35,200 Speaker 1: got something that needs more than three minutes to be explained. 873 00:54:35,239 --> 00:54:37,840 Speaker 1: I've got links, I've got pictures I have taken of 874 00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:40,160 Speaker 1: this strange thing. In the woods, are in the sky. 875 00:54:40,360 --> 00:54:43,400 Speaker 1: How do I get these? Do you good news, fellow 876 00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:46,640 Speaker 1: conspiracy realists. We have an email address where you can 877 00:54:46,680 --> 00:54:49,680 Speaker 1: reach us twenty four hours a day, seven days a week. 878 00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:52,000 Speaker 1: All you have to do is drop us a line 879 00:54:52,040 --> 00:55:00,000 Speaker 1: where we are conspiracy at i heart radio dot com. 880 00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:15,400 Speaker 1: M h H. Stuff they Don't want you to know 881 00:55:15,640 --> 00:55:18,600 Speaker 1: is a production of I heart Radio. For more podcasts 882 00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:20,839 Speaker 1: from my heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, 883 00:55:20,920 --> 00:55:23,760 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.