Speaker 1: Camp hell Anawaki is a production of I Heart Radio.
Speaker 1: The views and opinions express in this podcast are solely
Speaker 1: those of the author and participants and do not necessarily
Speaker 1: represent those of I Heart Media or its employees. Due
Speaker 1: to discussion of traumatic, sexual and violent content, listener discussion
Speaker 1: is advised. For this week's episode, we are taking a
Speaker 1: break from our story to share a very important interview
Speaker 1: we conducted. Chris Newland is head of the National Children's
Speaker 1: Advocacy Center. The n c a C was the very
Speaker 1: first children's advocacy center starting and has gone on to
Speaker 1: help with the issue of child abuse in groundbreaking ways.
Speaker 1: Chris answered some of our questions about child abuse, a
Speaker 1: very sensitive subject that we are still learning about to
Speaker 1: this day. I hope you enjoy and learn something from
Speaker 1: this interview. It is one that we all should hear.
Speaker 1: My name is Chris Newland, and I am the executive
Speaker 1: director at the National Children's Advocacy Center. Some of you
Speaker 1: may have heard of a Children's Advocacy center before, but
Speaker 1: the National Children's Advocacy Center is located in Huntsville, Alabama,
Speaker 1: and we were actually the first child advocacy center in
Speaker 1: the world. Um at Children's advocacy centers. What we do
Speaker 1: is coordinate the multidisciplinary response to child abuse in our communities.
Speaker 1: And this model includes partnerships and collaborations with law enforcement,
Speaker 1: child protective services, medical providers, mental health professionals, prosecutors, victim advocates,
Speaker 1: so all of us working in a coordinated manner. At
Speaker 1: a child advocacy center. We conduct forensic interviews, we do
Speaker 1: medical exams, We provide victim advocacy for children and families
Speaker 1: when there's allegations of abuse. We do provide therapy and
Speaker 1: all these services in a child friendly environment. And this
Speaker 1: whole model, which started nine eight five, has revolutionized our
Speaker 1: nation's response to child abuse and how we are making
Speaker 1: the process much more child friendly and trauma informed and
Speaker 1: not causing children to be re traumatized by a system
Speaker 1: that should actually help them. And this model has really
Speaker 1: taken over the U S. We have a more than
Speaker 1: a thousand child because centers across the United States that
Speaker 1: serve over three d seventy thousand kids per year. And
Speaker 1: this model also has been replicated in more than thirty
Speaker 1: three countries around the world who see the benefit of
Speaker 1: having a coordinated, multidisciplinary response responding to child abuse is
Speaker 1: not something that can be done by one agency or
Speaker 1: one organization. It requires all of us working together and
Speaker 1: prioritizing the needs of the child and making sure we're
Speaker 1: providing services to them and doing our best job to
Speaker 1: hold those who harmed children accountable. We opened in May
Speaker 1: of just kind of actually at a time when our
Speaker 1: country was beginning to recognize that child sexual abuse is
Speaker 1: an issue. You know, a few years before that, we
Speaker 1: had had the McMartin preschool case, which was a daycare
Speaker 1: case in California that garnered a fair amount of media attention. Uh,
Speaker 1: and we were beginning to understand what actually is this
Speaker 1: issue of child sexualities because it's really only been in
Speaker 1: this since the sixties that we were even talking more
Speaker 1: publicly about physical abuse and child physical abuse. Um. So
Speaker 1: there's there's I guess a lot of history there. But
Speaker 1: we opened our doors in nineteen five, and we have
Speaker 1: seen this incredible growth over the last thirty six years
Speaker 1: of children's advocacy centers spreading out all across the United
Speaker 1: States where actually more than seventy of American counties are
Speaker 1: served by a child advocacy centers. Had you heard of
Speaker 1: this case at all before? I called you and spoken
Speaker 1: to yesterday. I had not actually, despite having lived in
Speaker 1: Georgia during the nineteen nine a little bit in the
Speaker 1: nineteen nineties and early two thousands, Um, I hadn't heard
Speaker 1: of this case before you contacted me. How was child
Speaker 1: sex abuse addressed and discussed in the nineteen sixties and seventies?
Speaker 1: What kind of language was used? None? There, there, there,
Speaker 1: There was not really no, there was almost no dialogue
Speaker 1: about child sexual abuse in the sixties and seventies. You know,
Speaker 1: think about the social issues going on in the sixties
Speaker 1: and seventies, civil rights, you know, Vietnam. We had some
Speaker 1: massive issues that were you know, facing you know, our nation.
Speaker 1: Child sexual abuse was surely not rising to that level
Speaker 1: at that time. We had these incredible powerful social movements
Speaker 1: of a call to justice for racial you know, you know,
Speaker 1: starting to recognize that minority should be able to have
Speaker 1: access to voting, and desegregating schools, and lots of other
Speaker 1: big phenomenal shifts. If you think about Maslow's hierarchy of needs,
Speaker 1: we were at a much lower level that we were addressing,
Speaker 1: and child sexual abuse was not you know, at that point,
Speaker 1: reaching at tension. So it just wasn't garnering much attention,
Speaker 1: and even if there were something that was said, it
Speaker 1: was thought to be this very very rare thing that happens.
Speaker 1: You know, it would be very highly unusual because it
Speaker 1: didn't meet the picture of the perfect American family with
Speaker 1: a chicken in every pot, you know, and two point
Speaker 1: three kids. I think for people of my age born
Speaker 1: in the sixties, there were some real salient messages that
Speaker 1: we received, both in direct and subtle ways, and that is,
Speaker 1: if you don't have something nice to say, you don't
Speaker 1: say anything at all. Uh. Number two is you don't
Speaker 1: talk about adults. You're a kid. Um, you're you know,
Speaker 1: almost a different class of individual than an adult. They
Speaker 1: have rights that you don't have. Um, And that's just
Speaker 1: the way it is. And you know, so that really
Speaker 1: puts a damper on kids to be able to talk
Speaker 1: about things that are as challenging as child sexual abuse. Additionally,
Speaker 1: we did have these thoughts, and some of them have
Speaker 1: persisted that this notion of stranger danger, that you know,
Speaker 1: you need to be careful of strangers. There's some guy
Speaker 1: who might be doing something. Don't take candy from a stranger.
Speaker 1: You know, the image of the guy in the trench code.
Speaker 1: Who's going to maybe flash you all these kind of
Speaker 1: older images that we had um that were unfortunately widely
Speaker 1: mistaken with you know, what was happening in reality. I
Speaker 1: guess another one. And you know, some people may not
Speaker 1: even remember this, but in some of those early days,
Speaker 1: there was also some talk of these satanic cults that were,
Speaker 1: you know, holding these rituals where children were being sexually
Speaker 1: abused and they were being tortured by these Satanic cults
Speaker 1: that were doing things and people you wouldn't know. I mean,
Speaker 1: in some ways it hearkens a little bit to kind
Speaker 1: of the Q and on the dialogue of today, where
Speaker 1: you have this whole cabal of people that are engaged
Speaker 1: in these nefarious acts. I mean, the reality is that
Speaker 1: those were extraordinarily rare. This didn't happen, you know, although
Speaker 1: it was talked about. So with any kind of issue
Speaker 1: like this, it doesn't help if you're talking about extreme
Speaker 1: cases that aren't grounded in reality. Uh. And while strangers
Speaker 1: do commit some sexual assaults, now we know as we
Speaker 1: fast forward to more than of sexual abuses committed by
Speaker 1: someone the child knows, that's who has access to kids.
Speaker 1: Incidents of strangers sexually assaulting children are actually quite rare
Speaker 1: because parents just don't allow their kids to go off
Speaker 1: with strangers. Uh So the threat the for children is
Speaker 1: much more closer to home than necessarily. Um. The other
Speaker 1: issue is this idea that you know, anybody who was
Speaker 1: involved in doing things with youth used to be looked
Speaker 1: at with great esteem and was seen as someone who
Speaker 1: was graciously volunteering their time or committing their work to
Speaker 1: work with children in services. And we've really taken a
Speaker 1: different slam on that over the last twenty five years,
Speaker 1: where now if I want to volunteer to be a
Speaker 1: boy scout, you know, leader, let's say, or any other
Speaker 1: kind of sometimes people are like, well, why would you
Speaker 1: want to do that? I even get that question in
Speaker 1: doing this work, like why do you want to do
Speaker 1: this work? You know, like there do you have some
Speaker 1: secondary goal you're trying to achieve? Uh And unfortunately the
Speaker 1: reality is we know that individuals who work sometimes in
Speaker 1: you serving organizations may have less than genuine interests involved.
Speaker 1: They may have a secondary interest. Can you tell me
Speaker 1: a little bit about grooming and how the initial contact
Speaker 1: is often made with abusers. This is a place where
Speaker 1: the head leader would select his abusers from the children
Speaker 1: he thought me have been more susceptible. Is that often
Speaker 1: a part of this process? You you mentioned the notion
Speaker 1: of grooming, and I'd like to talk about the the
Speaker 1: notion of grooming to to start off the dialogue. First,
Speaker 1: grooming is in every other context intended and used as
Speaker 1: a description of a pro social behavior. I take my
Speaker 1: dog to get groomed so the dog smells good, looks good,
Speaker 1: feels good. We groom a horse so they look good
Speaker 1: before they run in a race. We groom, let's say,
Speaker 1: a political candidate, so that they are prepared to engage
Speaker 1: and present themselves most appropriately. We all get groomed before
Speaker 1: we may go out to on an important event or
Speaker 1: a date, or our wedding, and those are all pro
Speaker 1: social activities. So I think before even responding about the
Speaker 1: issue of grooming, I want to challenge the audience to
Speaker 1: think about why do we use a word grooming to
Speaker 1: describe what an individual may do to sexually abuse a child.
Speaker 1: Why do we use a word that is just in
Speaker 1: every other context pro social. Why do we use that
Speaker 1: to describe what I would consider to be an antisocial behavior.
Speaker 1: I would like to challenge everybody to really think about
Speaker 1: the use of the word grooming versus using a much
Speaker 1: more appropriate word if you look at you know actual
Speaker 1: definitions and Miriam Webster, a much more appropriate word to
Speaker 1: describe what an individual who may sexually abuse a child
Speaker 1: is doing. Is not grooming, This is not pro social,
Speaker 1: this is antisocial. What they're doing is manipulating, manipulation, or manipulating.
Speaker 1: Those are much better words to describe what an individual
Speaker 1: who may sexually abuse a child is doing. They're taking
Speaker 1: advantage of someone whom they can deceive for their own
Speaker 1: personal advantage and gain without any concern for that individual.
Speaker 1: I think all of us recognize that manipulation or being
Speaker 1: manipulated is not something any of us want to have
Speaker 1: done to us, right, Nobody wants to be manipulated, and
Speaker 1: that's actually what individuals are doing. So words are important
Speaker 1: in the work. We've used grooming for a long long
Speaker 1: time and all of the people who work in my
Speaker 1: field know what it means, but maybe the average Joe
Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily know. It's that process that someone uses to
Speaker 1: engage a child, and not even just a child. I
Speaker 1: would say there's multiple levels of manipulation that occur. First,
Speaker 1: an individual will manipulate the broader environment, right like by
Speaker 1: having a good reputation and you know, being well respected
Speaker 1: in their community, like, oh, Chris could never do something
Speaker 1: like that. I've known Chris for twenty six years and
Speaker 1: I've only known him to be x. You know, those
Speaker 1: are about creating this environment where I'm manipulating everybody to
Speaker 1: think I'm a really good guy to hide the things
Speaker 1: that maybe I'm doing secretly. Another level of manipulation that
Speaker 1: happens is the manipulation of caregivers or trusted others. Um So,
Speaker 1: let's say you know someone an individual wants to have
Speaker 1: sexual contact with the child. Their first step really is
Speaker 1: to win over the parents or caregivers of that child
Speaker 1: so that they can have access to that child. Because
Speaker 1: until they can have that individual access with the child,
Speaker 1: they're not gonna have the opportunity to sexually abuse them.
Speaker 1: And that actually is a double edged sword because when
Speaker 1: you do, when that someone does gain the trust of
Speaker 1: a parent or a caregiver, it makes it even harder
Speaker 1: for that parent or caregiver to maybe see what's happening.
Speaker 1: Because I blindly look at you and say I trust you.
Speaker 1: I've kind of given you my blessing. So if something
Speaker 1: does come up, I mean it's I might find an
Speaker 1: explanation for why maybe there's not something to be concerned about.
Speaker 1: So it really is UM creates greater challenges in our work.
Speaker 1: And the last level of manipulation is actually manipulating the
Speaker 1: child and that requires different activities. We could have a
Speaker 1: whole sixteen you know series podcasts that to talk about,
Speaker 1: you know, kind of what. But I've seen over the years,
Speaker 1: and this is actually an area of intense interest for
Speaker 1: me because I started my career working actually with individuals
Speaker 1: who had sexually abused children. Was a clinical member of
Speaker 1: the Association for the Treatment of Sexual Abusers and really
Speaker 1: have you worked on the victim side, but understanding the
Speaker 1: approach that offenders may take and how to engage kids
Speaker 1: in this behavior in particular to the case that we're
Speaker 1: talking about here, the manipulation. The environment was, Hey, we're
Speaker 1: you know, taking on working with these challenging youth and
Speaker 1: we're going to be providing services for some kids that
Speaker 1: are really struggling, and we're doing important work here and
Speaker 1: you can trust us. And here's some of my past
Speaker 1: work and relationships that make me be a trustworthy person.
Speaker 1: And then who was referring these kids to them? Right,
Speaker 1: that's in this situation, that may be the caregiver, whether
Speaker 1: it's actually caregiver or other state agencies that were involved
Speaker 1: in supervision of youth who were saying, yes, we believe
Speaker 1: in you, and I've won them over, I've won their support.
Speaker 1: At that point, I'm alone, you know, with the kids
Speaker 1: in a system matter of identifying kids that I think
Speaker 1: I may be able to engage. So once you've cleared
Speaker 1: the first barrier of manipulating the environment, you've cleared the
Speaker 1: second barrier of manipulating caregivers or whoever that is, a
Speaker 1: parent or a social agency, whatever it may be. The
Speaker 1: last is the child. And it's not just a random
Speaker 1: approach where I'm just gonna try this. I'm gonna try
Speaker 1: to hit on every child. Necessarily, that's not the case.
Speaker 1: Individuals may have particular interests and who they're interested in
Speaker 1: or who they may have a desire to be in
Speaker 1: contact with. Um. They may also will almost always look
Speaker 1: at is this a child who I think I can
Speaker 1: manipulate or not? You know, if you have a child
Speaker 1: who always tells on everything everybody, for every little thing,
Speaker 1: they've ever done for every transgression. That's not who you're
Speaker 1: going after, right because that that individual is gonna, you know,
Speaker 1: tell What you want is someone who you can manipulate,
Speaker 1: who you don't want. I'm saying that in this scenario,
Speaker 1: I'm not saying this is a good thing. I'm definitely
Speaker 1: saying it's a bad thing. But what an offender is
Speaker 1: looking at is who can they manipulate, who is more vulnerable.
Speaker 1: It's just like what we learned on the Serengetti in Africa.
Speaker 1: You know, when the when the tigers or the lions
Speaker 1: are approaching, you know, a herd of animals, they look
Speaker 1: for the weak ones that are at the edge of
Speaker 1: the herd and they try to pick them off and
Speaker 1: building relationship. What's really insidious in this is the fact
Speaker 1: that in child sexual abuse, in many situations, the child
Speaker 1: ends up being sexually abused by someone who they consider
Speaker 1: their friend, someone who they like, and the offender in
Speaker 1: this scenario is making the kids like them where they
Speaker 1: are an important part of their life, because it makes
Speaker 1: it harder for you to tell on someone you really like.
Speaker 1: It's easy for any of us to tell on someone
Speaker 1: we hate when they've done something wrong right, like, oh hey,
Speaker 1: this person, I hate them they did this. But when
Speaker 1: it's someone we like, we're less likely to And offenders
Speaker 1: are very manipulative. In this so long story, short grooming
Speaker 1: I think is passe. Let's use the best word it is.
Speaker 1: This is manipulation that's happening at multiple levels. And people
Speaker 1: are very intentional about who they seek as a victim
Speaker 1: because they want to avoid detection so they can continue
Speaker 1: the behavior. Has there been a history of abuse associated
Speaker 1: with troubled and emotionally disturbed you? I think when we
Speaker 1: look across the plane of all youth that are out there, um,
Speaker 1: you know, there are certain individuals who may be more
Speaker 1: vulnerable by virtue of some of their past. Like if,
Speaker 1: for example, what do we all think about the credibility
Speaker 1: of a valedictorian in high school who also was a
Speaker 1: two sport letter person and was president of the senior
Speaker 1: class UH and has multiple scholarships off offers. You know,
Speaker 1: what do we think about that person's credibility versus an
Speaker 1: individual who has been an alternative school for four years
Speaker 1: um and has not done anything anything of any significance
Speaker 1: at an academic or a sports level, hasn't been involved
Speaker 1: in any youth groups or activities, doesn't participate in church.
Speaker 1: What do we just immediately assign As far as the
Speaker 1: credibility between those two, I think all of you know,
Speaker 1: it's very natural for people to maybe be less likely
Speaker 1: to believe what the kid who's been an alternative school
Speaker 1: and not had these other accomplishments. We all have implicit
Speaker 1: bias and what we believe, and it impacts child abuse
Speaker 1: because children oftentimes who have more troubled backgrounds or less
Speaker 1: likely to be believed. You know, Chris has been in
Speaker 1: trouble his whole life. He has been nothing but trouble.
Speaker 1: You can't trust a word, he says. All of that
Speaker 1: makes me even more vulnerable as a victim, because no
Speaker 1: one's gonna believe when I disclose, or less likely or
Speaker 1: they are less likely to believe if I've expressed a concern. So,
Speaker 1: if you are wanting to sexually abuse children, who do
Speaker 1: you go after? You go after the valedictorian or do
Speaker 1: you go after the alternative school kid? I think you know,
Speaker 1: most of the time what we see is kids who
Speaker 1: are vulnerable and less likely to be believed or less
Speaker 1: likely for you know, for there to be supervision. Those
Speaker 1: are the individuals who are more likely to be targeted,
Speaker 1: and I use that word intentionally. Children would often stay
Speaker 1: Louis Petter would have this inner circle of kids who
Speaker 1: would often stay at his house well where this abuse
Speaker 1: would go on, even living with him and his family.
Speaker 1: And then he's abusing these kids in the same house
Speaker 1: as his wife and children and daughter are in just
Speaker 1: the next room. Um, how do families in a situation
Speaker 1: like this often deal with having an abuser in their family?
Speaker 1: And the situation that you describe with him involving kind
Speaker 1: of having a special class of individuals that get to
Speaker 1: come spend the time in his house. For many of them,
Speaker 1: that probably most likely made them in a way feel
Speaker 1: very special. They again, the manipulation of you get to
Speaker 1: do something that other people don't get to do, you
Speaker 1: get to have access to something that other people don't
Speaker 1: get to have access to, makes it where they you know,
Speaker 1: this confusing notion of Okay, but I'm special. Now that
Speaker 1: some of this stuff feels weird, but I get all
Speaker 1: these extra privileges or opportunities that other people don't get.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm special, And especially for someone who may
Speaker 1: be at a wilderness camp who hasn't maybe oftentimes felt
Speaker 1: special in their life or been important to someone else.
Speaker 1: That can be very powerful for them, not in a
Speaker 1: sexual way, but just to feel respected, to feel wanted,
Speaker 1: to feel a part of something, the other thing that
Speaker 1: and when you were, you know, thinking about this, being
Speaker 1: in the home with the spouse, with a partner, and
Speaker 1: with other kids. Come on, most people are gonna like, Okay,
Speaker 1: that's not where abuse would happen. No way, he's doing
Speaker 1: it in the house. It makes it almost even harder
Speaker 1: to believe, right because how can you get away with it?
Speaker 1: Your wife's there, you're the kids are there. You know,
Speaker 1: that doesn't make sense that it can happen. The reality is,
Speaker 1: I can't tell you how many cases I've seen where
Speaker 1: individuals were sexually abused while people were right there. It
Speaker 1: could even be in the same room under a blanket
Speaker 1: where people touching is occurring. You know, the situations of
Speaker 1: maybe a child sitting on grandfather's lap and the grandmother's
Speaker 1: in the room right next door cooking, and they're watching
Speaker 1: a movie and have a blanket, and sexual abuse is
Speaker 1: happening right there. Now when you ask the grandmother, but
Speaker 1: there's no way I was there. The whole time, there's
Speaker 1: no way he could have done it. It makes it
Speaker 1: less believable. And there actually is some research that says
Speaker 1: that a significant amount of research is done when people
Speaker 1: are either in the room or in neighboring rooms, in
Speaker 1: an environment where you almost couldn't believe that it would happen.
Speaker 1: The fact that the kids probably felt special for being
Speaker 1: in that setting, like I'm in this special class, I
Speaker 1: get to be there. Plus he gets you know, for
Speaker 1: the individual says, you know, but my family was here,
Speaker 1: there's no way maybe that something happened. All those are
Speaker 1: very are extraordinary measures of manipulating an environment to make
Speaker 1: it less likely for someone to disclose and less likely
Speaker 1: for anyone to believe if the child does disclose because
Speaker 1: it sounds unbelievable. Um, the reality is, um, it happens.
Speaker 1: It happens all the time. It happens in front of
Speaker 1: people without them even being aware. We've seen examples of
Speaker 1: abuse in an institution such as Antawaki in other places
Speaker 1: such as the case of Jerry Sandusky, or instances of
Speaker 1: abuse in the Catholic Church. Is it harder to get
Speaker 1: something done when it is attached to an institution such
Speaker 1: as that you know, there's a I think the saying
Speaker 1: is you know, Jesse, it's attributed I believe to Jesse James, like,
Speaker 1: you know, why do you rob banks? You know? And
Speaker 1: Jesse James said, because that's where the money is, right,
Speaker 1: you know, where kids they're in, you know, you serving organizations.
Speaker 1: If they're not in your family, they're not in your home,
Speaker 1: they're not your neighbor that you had. You the one
Speaker 1: way you gain access as kids is by being involved
Speaker 1: with youth serving organizations or where the kids are. You know,
Speaker 1: So if you want to sexually abuse kids, you know,
Speaker 1: it's kind of like Jesse James going to the bank,
Speaker 1: you go to where the kids are. Uh So, I
Speaker 1: think historically we kind of knew that, but we didn't
Speaker 1: internalize it as much because we had this notion of
Speaker 1: these were really good and say things, and many most
Speaker 1: of the time they are. But you know, think about
Speaker 1: the last decade or longer, you know, with what we've
Speaker 1: seen in the Catholic Church, what we you know, and
Speaker 1: what we've seen in youth serving organizations of all kinds,
Speaker 1: we you know, uh, sporting activities. We we have had
Speaker 1: the wool pull back on that and there has really
Speaker 1: been a clarion call to hold youth serving organizations accountable
Speaker 1: that they need to have certain procedures in place. You know,
Speaker 1: we work, we partner with a number of youth serving
Speaker 1: organizations to provide assistance in this area because they have
Speaker 1: to recognize that there are risks involved and they need
Speaker 1: to make sure that they're mitigating those risks to the
Speaker 1: very best of their ability while still providing their mission. Now,
Speaker 1: if we go back to the seventies, we did we
Speaker 1: weren't paying attention to that, and in many ways you
Speaker 1: had the veil of you know, you're doing good work
Speaker 1: for kids, you know, as as political cover in a
Speaker 1: sense for your manipulation, like you were seeing. We weren't
Speaker 1: even thinking along those terms. So it was you know,
Speaker 1: it's very different now than it was. We're all a
Speaker 1: bit more suspicious. We're all a bit more skeptical about things,
Speaker 1: and we really are asking some of these hard questions
Speaker 1: that need to be asked. What steps have been made
Speaker 1: present day that would have stopped something like any we
Speaker 1: keep happening. Are there still many cases of abuse in
Speaker 1: learning or medical institutions today? You know, there's been a
Speaker 1: tremendous amount the you know, sinator disease control helped along
Speaker 1: with the number of professionals wrote some guidelines. Uh. You
Speaker 1: serving organizations, you know the Boys and Girls Called of America,
Speaker 1: Big Brothers, Big Sisters, you know, boy Scouts, from all
Speaker 1: up and down the list. I'm not trying to be exclusive. Effectively,
Speaker 1: any meaningful youth serving organization has really amped up the
Speaker 1: dialogue UH, and churches related to how we make sure
Speaker 1: that children are protected our environment, talking about the issue,
Speaker 1: making it aware. You know, those are really important things
Speaker 1: that have been done. Uh, they continue to evolve. And
Speaker 1: making sure that individuals are not allowed to be alone
Speaker 1: with youth. Um, that there are any time there's kinds
Speaker 1: of issues of special consideration being given, that should always
Speaker 1: be a warning sign. We see this in education too.
Speaker 1: I mean, think about the number of school personnel who
Speaker 1: are engaged in sexual contact with students. So this cuts
Speaker 1: across all kinds of wherever our kids are, we need
Speaker 1: to make sure that we're talking about this issue. Um.
Speaker 1: You know a lot of times sometimes people have asked
Speaker 1: before and in training, especially earlier with churches and in
Speaker 1: the wake of the Catholic Church, you know, like how
Speaker 1: do we address this issue? And you know, I would say,
Speaker 1: if you want to do one thing to make someone
Speaker 1: who is using your environment uncomfortable, talk about the issue.
Speaker 1: Talk about it in Sunday school. Talk about it from
Speaker 1: the pulpit, you know, talk about the issue. If you
Speaker 1: want to make them uncomfortable, talk about it. Because they
Speaker 1: thrive in darkness. They thrive and where this is not
Speaker 1: being talked about. And unfortunately, for all the kids who
Speaker 1: experienced abuse at anna Waki, they were living in a
Speaker 1: time where we were all in the dark, and we
Speaker 1: were all not paying attention to things that we needed
Speaker 1: to be paying attention to. We've made a lot of
Speaker 1: progress over the last forty years, but unfortunately, we have
Speaker 1: a tremendous number of adults in our society who experienced
Speaker 1: abuse in their childhood and never had the opportunity to
Speaker 1: tell about it. Is even in a friend of my family,
Speaker 1: my mother in law's best friend, kind of a second
Speaker 1: mother to my wife, was visiting us. At one point
Speaker 1: she wanted to take a tour of the center and I,
Speaker 1: you know, our the National Children's have a Cey Center,
Speaker 1: And I was like, Okay, we'll go down there on
Speaker 1: a Saturday and I'll show her around and maybe an hour,
Speaker 1: but you know, wol be the right thing to do.
Speaker 1: So we get there and we do a tour, and
Speaker 1: then we're sitting down and she has questions after question
Speaker 1: after question after question after question, and we end up
Speaker 1: being there for two and a half hours. I'm like, okay,
Speaker 1: now you're cutting into my Saturday kind of thing. But
Speaker 1: she was really interested in volunteering at a child advocacy center.
Speaker 1: Come to find out they leave, you're going back to
Speaker 1: where they live. And she discloses to my mother in
Speaker 1: law and says, you know, I'm sixty eight years old.
Speaker 1: She said, I've never told a single person about this,
Speaker 1: but when I was three years old, I was sexually
Speaker 1: abused by by babysitter's son, who was a teenager, and
Speaker 1: I still think about it today. It impacted how I
Speaker 1: raised my daughter, It impacted how I viewed sexuality and sex.
Speaker 1: It impacted my marriage, It impacted every aspect of my life.
Speaker 1: How I viewed the world was shaped by that. And
Speaker 1: I've never told a single person about it until now.
Speaker 1: This has been something I've carried around for sixty five years.
Speaker 1: And unfortunately, we have a tremendous number of Americans in
Speaker 1: our society that are carrying the same burdens of not
Speaker 1: being recognized, not being her, of not being supported. It's
Speaker 1: a public health crisis. For individuals over the age of
Speaker 1: forty years old, one in four girls and one in
Speaker 1: seven boys have experienced sexual abuse. One in four girls
Speaker 1: and one in seven boys for individuals over the age
Speaker 1: of forty years old, that is another pandemic in the
Speaker 1: secondary impacts of this issue on individual's ability to earn
Speaker 1: a reasonable income, to own a house on a car
Speaker 1: are overwhelming in the literature, and it also has impacted
Speaker 1: our nation's health. Our health care costs are significantly higher
Speaker 1: because of child mail treatment. Nine of all Medicaid costs
Speaker 1: are related to child abuse, and when we talk about
Speaker 1: states not being able to pay for medicaid, if we
Speaker 1: can address the issue of child sexual abuse and child
Speaker 1: abuse and children's exposure to adverse experiences, we can improve
Speaker 1: our nation's health and improve our nation's economy. We're making progress,
Speaker 1: but this is something that has to be on the radar.
Speaker 1: It cannot be a sideline issue. It needs to be
Speaker 1: a center of the field issue. There's been a significant
Speaker 1: amount of concern over time that if a child was
Speaker 1: sexually abused that that means they will become a sexual abuser,
Speaker 1: like you're exposed to this and now you have it,
Speaker 1: like it's a disease, like it's going to happen. And
Speaker 1: I want to make sure to communicate that a overwhelming
Speaker 1: majority of individuals who are sexually abused never sexually abused
Speaker 1: a child in their life. It is not something where
Speaker 1: it's you know, a fate to complete that you know
Speaker 1: you are going to do this now. In the situation
Speaker 1: with Anna Waki and some of this described, these behaviors
Speaker 1: were nurtured by people in positions of influence. So individuals
Speaker 1: who were abused, and we see this from time to time,
Speaker 1: Individuals who were abused become involved in that and they
Speaker 1: have developing some level of enjoyment, and they are they
Speaker 1: are encouraged to engage in this behavior with other individuals.
Speaker 1: I don't want to share a lot of details because
Speaker 1: I don't think it's really helpful, but I have worked
Speaker 1: with kids under the age of ten who literally have
Speaker 1: talked about how they because of the way they were manipulated.
Speaker 1: They talk about missing having sex with one of their parents.
Speaker 1: That took work to create a child who viewsed the
Speaker 1: world that way. It's okay, it's acceptable, and actually I
Speaker 1: enjoy it. That is that is a very disturbed approach,
Speaker 1: and I know that's probably very disturbing for people to hear,
Speaker 1: but you know, children can be manipulated and manipulating them
Speaker 1: it's also part of the offender's mentality, Like if other
Speaker 1: people are doing this, it's more socially acceptable. In our
Speaker 1: inner circle, it's acceptable for us to do that. I
Speaker 1: serve as a role model for them so they can
Speaker 1: engage other kids in this activity. It almost is gonna
Speaker 1: make it harder to believe. But in the group that
Speaker 1: I'm hanging out with, the people who I'm associating with,
Speaker 1: this is more commonplace and it becomes a norm. It
Speaker 1: would be like, if you know, we lived in a
Speaker 1: community where you know, a certain group of people eight
Speaker 1: tennis shoes, they would carve up tennis shoes and put
Speaker 1: them in twice baked potatoes or whatever. It just becomes
Speaker 1: the norm. Right, That seems very odd, very strange, very disturbing.
Speaker 1: But when it becomes something that everybody is doing, it
Speaker 1: becomes a little bit more acceptable, and it creates it
Speaker 1: makes it, it creates a very dangerous and insidious environ
Speaker 1: it where we normalize things, and that is a you know,
Speaker 1: that's a huge issue around this kind of manipulation of
Speaker 1: those The other thing it does is it empowers the offender.
Speaker 1: Like if let's say so I, you know, I'm sexually
Speaker 1: using this child, and now I'm encouraging this childhood gigs
Speaker 1: and sexual contact. I can then go to that child
Speaker 1: and say, if you ever talked about what happened, they're
Speaker 1: going to find about about what you've done. You'll be
Speaker 1: in trouble too. Now I've made my victim even more
Speaker 1: vulnerable to me and more able to be manipulated. So
Speaker 1: it's a clever and disgusting strategy to do this because
Speaker 1: it's almost like a drug dealer in a way. You
Speaker 1: now create these other people that are selling drugs to others.
Speaker 1: And at any point, if you want to have contact
Speaker 1: and you're the kingpin, you could have you know, I
Speaker 1: want to have sexual contact with this individual, you could
Speaker 1: make that happen in that scenario because you have these
Speaker 1: other people that are kind of this Ponzi scheme of
Speaker 1: sexual abuse. Um, it's very disturbing and I know, probably
Speaker 1: for listeners to hear about some of the offender mentality
Speaker 1: and this is probably highly disturbing, and I'm you know,
Speaker 1: it's hard to talk about this stuff with just without
Speaker 1: just being real kind of shifting to the climate today.
Speaker 1: You mentioned this a little bit earlier about kind of
Speaker 1: the Satanic panic era and Q and on. How has
Speaker 1: that affected your work and getting people aware of these
Speaker 1: very real issues When there is this trend right now
Speaker 1: of sex trafficking and child pedophilia being in large grand
Speaker 1: conspiracy terms, things such as Pizza Gate, as this elitist
Speaker 1: Hollywood cabal taking a drene of chrome and harvesting babies
Speaker 1: and things of that nature, how does that affect um
Speaker 1: your work and trying to get the word out in
Speaker 1: the real work done in this issue. Uh. You know,
Speaker 1: I quite honestly would want to say to anybody who's involved,
Speaker 1: uh and and really believes in that if you're so committed,
Speaker 1: where have you been all the years we've been here,
Speaker 1: I hadn't met you, Um, I would have loved I
Speaker 1: won't have everybody on our side working to help protect kids.
Speaker 1: You know, Hey, if you're interested now, great, Let's make
Speaker 1: sure anything we're doing is is grounded in reality, it's
Speaker 1: based on what we actually know from the research you know,
Speaker 1: the way we interview children, the way we can doctu
Speaker 1: medically exams, the way we provide therapy, it's all based
Speaker 1: on science. Let's let science, you know, drive how we
Speaker 1: respond to this issue. Let's make sure that we are
Speaker 1: innovative in our practice. That's what we need to do.
Speaker 1: But I would say, you know, getting accurate information is
Speaker 1: out there is hard because you're pushing back against society
Speaker 1: and kind of norms that are out there, and people
Speaker 1: not wanting to hear about things that are difficult, uh,
Speaker 1: and things that are disturbing. There's a reason why most
Speaker 1: people say I could never do that work because they
Speaker 1: recognize we're exposed to toxic content on a daily basis,
Speaker 1: and most people don't want to hear that. Like, my
Speaker 1: life is hard enough as it is. The last thing
Speaker 1: I need is more So, we're always challenged with how
Speaker 1: to try to get accurate, truthful information out there. It's
Speaker 1: an issue right now in our society. You brought up
Speaker 1: the issue of sex trafficking. Um, you know, I think
Speaker 1: when you say you know sex trafficking, you know, some
Speaker 1: people will automatically develop like in their mind, what is
Speaker 1: it you see? What do you think about do you
Speaker 1: think about an individual who is you know, working as
Speaker 1: a trafficker and has kids that you know are being
Speaker 1: forced to engage in sex acts. You know, what is
Speaker 1: it that people think about. We still are at a
Speaker 1: point where we're collecting data. I can tell you this unequivocally,
Speaker 1: child sexual abuse happens at a far greater rate than
Speaker 1: children are traffic in our in our nation. Uh. It's significant,
Speaker 1: gettingly more an issue at least on a scale of
Speaker 1: ten to one at a minimum. So I mean that's
Speaker 1: what we know. We're learning more in one case of
Speaker 1: child sex trafficking is terrible. Uh, and we are actively
Speaker 1: involved in the fight against it and training people around
Speaker 1: the issue. But it's you know, Americans like bright, shiny
Speaker 1: new toys, and any time we talk about kind of
Speaker 1: a new thing, people may respond to it. Um. I've
Speaker 1: been doing this work for a long time. I personally
Speaker 1: get offended when people say there's this huge cabal that
Speaker 1: we're just completely oblivious to what It says that me,
Speaker 1: my colleagues, all of the people that I work with,
Speaker 1: that we're not smart enough to figure out something that's happening.
Speaker 1: And I would say, where's your evidence? You know, let's
Speaker 1: let's talk about the evidence. We can say anything, but
Speaker 1: what can you show me? Uh? And again, I've been
Speaker 1: here for thirty years, you know, hadn't seen you. We've
Speaker 1: been doing this work for a long time, trying to
Speaker 1: improve our nation's response to protect children and to hold
Speaker 1: those who harm them accountable. I don't care who you are.
Speaker 1: If you're sexually abusing a child, you deserve to be
Speaker 1: held accountable, doesn't matter who you are. And I like
Speaker 1: to work in the area of truth. That's what kids
Speaker 1: who have experienced abuse need. They need truth to come
Speaker 1: out so they can heal no one's benefits. When we
Speaker 1: have conspiracies that are unproven and inaccurate, this is an
Speaker 1: opportunity to move the needle, you know, on on how
Speaker 1: we understand this issue, how we're paying attention to this issue.
Speaker 1: How do we know what to look for if you
Speaker 1: don't know what's really happening? Right, how can we protect children?
Speaker 1: And I would say maybe one final thing I would
Speaker 1: say is that the protection of children is not the
Speaker 1: responsibility of children. The protection of children is the responsibility
Speaker 1: of all adults living in a society to make sure
Speaker 1: they're protected. Even the Massai warriors who are known in
Speaker 1: Africa to be some of the most aggressive and successful warriors.
Speaker 1: When they would greet one another, they would the first
Speaker 1: thing they would ask in their their tongue is how
Speaker 1: and how are the children? Because they knew how children
Speaker 1: were being taken care of by a society in their
Speaker 1: own would be an indication of how advanced the society is.
Speaker 1: It's high time that we prioritize the protection of our children. Uh.
Speaker 1: And we were doing all we can to prevent them
Speaker 1: from being experiencing any abuse. And if they do experience abuse,
Speaker 1: that they have full access to the resources that we
Speaker 1: have now have to help them heal from that so
Speaker 1: they can live happy, full productive lives and they don't
Speaker 1: disclose at age sixty eight about something that happened sixty
Speaker 1: five years ago that's impact of their entire life. We
Speaker 1: need to help them now they can be helped. Um
Speaker 1: Child sexual abuse or exposure to other trauma is not
Speaker 1: a death sentence. It doesn't ruin a child forever. This
Speaker 1: is something that we have tools to address. We can
Speaker 1: address it. UH. And individuals, lots and lots of individuals
Speaker 1: are various tessibul in life after having experienced abuse. So
Speaker 1: We shouldn't be fatalistic about it, but we should be
Speaker 1: aggressive in our work to protect kids and to help
Speaker 1: those who have been harmed and to hold those who
Speaker 1: are harming them accountable. That is what in just Society
Speaker 1: does next time on camp help in a waking. Once
Speaker 1: maybe twice a year, people from the state would come
Speaker 1: out to do like an inspection or something. They picked
Speaker 1: like three of us girls to be the one to
Speaker 1: answer any questions, and so they took the rest of
Speaker 1: the group like way way out into the wood. They
Speaker 1: were leasing them, just like anybody else would be leasing
Speaker 1: real estate from another company, any other business. So so
Speaker 1: the non profit paying the profit corporation the nonprofit and
Speaker 1: awaky E was baying and Awakey Estates rent with the
Speaker 1: ownership of that was the three daughters. There was a chimney.
Speaker 1: He climbed to the top of that and uh dove off.
Speaker 1: Earl was very touched anytime a kid died and he
Speaker 1: would get involved and he would become obsessive, compulsive trying
Speaker 1: to deal with it. And that was something he never
Speaker 1: could figure out if he was doing it. Since nineteen
Speaker 1: somebody notices in four and the disapproval sticks in their mind.
Speaker 1: It only took a year and a half from there
Speaker 1: for it to fall apart. Camp hell an Awaki was
Speaker 1: created and hosted by Josh Than with producer Miranda Hawkins
Speaker 1: and executive producers Alex Williams and Matt Frederick. The soundtrack
Speaker 1: was written and performed by Josh Thane and Adrian Barry.
Speaker 1: Archival footage for aided by ws B and CBS News.
Speaker 1: Find us on Instagram at camp hell pod. That's c
Speaker 1: A M p h E L L p O D.
Speaker 1: Educate yourself about the issue of child abuse and things
Speaker 1: that you should look for at the Darkness to Light website.
Speaker 1: D too well dot org. That's d the number two
Speaker 1: l dot org. Camp hell Anawaki is a production of
Speaker 1: I heart Radio. For more podcasts from my heart Radio,
Speaker 1: visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
Speaker 1: you listen to podcasts.