WEBVTT - Bonus Episode: Chris Newlin 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:03.199 Camp hell Anawaki is a production of I Heart Radio. 0:00:03.440 --> 0:00:06.360 The views and opinions express in this podcast are solely 0:00:06.400 --> 0:00:09.360 those of the author and participants and do not necessarily 0:00:09.400 --> 0:00:12.760 represent those of I Heart Media or its employees. Due 0:00:12.760 --> 0:00:16.919 to discussion of traumatic, sexual and violent content, listener discussion 0:00:17.120 --> 0:00:21.720 is advised. For this week's episode, we are taking a 0:00:21.760 --> 0:00:24.800 break from our story to share a very important interview 0:00:24.800 --> 0:00:29.440 we conducted. Chris Newland is head of the National Children's 0:00:29.480 --> 0:00:33.720 Advocacy Center. The n c a C was the very 0:00:33.800 --> 0:00:38.879 first children's advocacy center starting and has gone on to 0:00:38.920 --> 0:00:42.040 help with the issue of child abuse in groundbreaking ways. 0:00:42.960 --> 0:00:46.600 Chris answered some of our questions about child abuse, a 0:00:46.720 --> 0:00:49.800 very sensitive subject that we are still learning about to 0:00:49.960 --> 0:00:53.680 this day. I hope you enjoy and learn something from 0:00:53.680 --> 0:00:56.680 this interview. It is one that we all should hear. 0:01:00.800 --> 0:01:03.640 My name is Chris Newland, and I am the executive 0:01:03.640 --> 0:01:07.760 director at the National Children's Advocacy Center. Some of you 0:01:07.800 --> 0:01:11.000 may have heard of a Children's Advocacy center before, but 0:01:11.120 --> 0:01:14.600 the National Children's Advocacy Center is located in Huntsville, Alabama, 0:01:14.680 --> 0:01:17.400 and we were actually the first child advocacy center in 0:01:17.440 --> 0:01:21.080 the world. Um at Children's advocacy centers. What we do 0:01:21.200 --> 0:01:25.600 is coordinate the multidisciplinary response to child abuse in our communities. 0:01:26.360 --> 0:01:30.640 And this model includes partnerships and collaborations with law enforcement, 0:01:30.800 --> 0:01:37.280 child protective services, medical providers, mental health professionals, prosecutors, victim advocates, 0:01:38.040 --> 0:01:41.160 so all of us working in a coordinated manner. At 0:01:41.160 --> 0:01:45.520 a child advocacy center. We conduct forensic interviews, we do 0:01:45.840 --> 0:01:50.280 medical exams, We provide victim advocacy for children and families 0:01:50.320 --> 0:01:55.200 when there's allegations of abuse. We do provide therapy and 0:01:55.280 --> 0:01:58.240 all these services in a child friendly environment. And this 0:01:58.320 --> 0:02:02.000 whole model, which started nine eight five, has revolutionized our 0:02:02.120 --> 0:02:05.600 nation's response to child abuse and how we are making 0:02:05.640 --> 0:02:09.600 the process much more child friendly and trauma informed and 0:02:09.639 --> 0:02:13.000 not causing children to be re traumatized by a system 0:02:13.040 --> 0:02:17.720 that should actually help them. And this model has really 0:02:17.760 --> 0:02:19.440 taken over the U S. We have a more than 0:02:19.480 --> 0:02:22.280 a thousand child because centers across the United States that 0:02:22.360 --> 0:02:25.400 serve over three d seventy thousand kids per year. And 0:02:25.440 --> 0:02:28.040 this model also has been replicated in more than thirty 0:02:28.080 --> 0:02:30.640 three countries around the world who see the benefit of 0:02:30.680 --> 0:02:35.840 having a coordinated, multidisciplinary response responding to child abuse is 0:02:35.840 --> 0:02:38.000 not something that can be done by one agency or 0:02:38.000 --> 0:02:41.320 one organization. It requires all of us working together and 0:02:41.360 --> 0:02:44.440 prioritizing the needs of the child and making sure we're 0:02:44.440 --> 0:02:47.120 providing services to them and doing our best job to 0:02:47.160 --> 0:02:50.639 hold those who harmed children accountable. We opened in May 0:02:50.680 --> 0:02:54.440 of just kind of actually at a time when our 0:02:54.480 --> 0:02:57.600 country was beginning to recognize that child sexual abuse is 0:02:57.639 --> 0:03:00.120 an issue. You know, a few years before that, we 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:03.239 had had the McMartin preschool case, which was a daycare 0:03:03.280 --> 0:03:07.520 case in California that garnered a fair amount of media attention. Uh, 0:03:07.520 --> 0:03:10.760 and we were beginning to understand what actually is this 0:03:10.840 --> 0:03:13.320 issue of child sexualities because it's really only been in 0:03:13.360 --> 0:03:16.280 this since the sixties that we were even talking more 0:03:16.320 --> 0:03:21.600 publicly about physical abuse and child physical abuse. Um. So 0:03:21.639 --> 0:03:24.200 there's there's I guess a lot of history there. But 0:03:24.280 --> 0:03:27.640 we opened our doors in nineteen five, and we have 0:03:27.760 --> 0:03:30.880 seen this incredible growth over the last thirty six years 0:03:30.960 --> 0:03:34.080 of children's advocacy centers spreading out all across the United 0:03:34.120 --> 0:03:38.040 States where actually more than seventy of American counties are 0:03:38.080 --> 0:03:41.040 served by a child advocacy centers. Had you heard of 0:03:41.040 --> 0:03:43.680 this case at all before? I called you and spoken 0:03:43.680 --> 0:03:47.680 to yesterday. I had not actually, despite having lived in 0:03:47.720 --> 0:03:52.560 Georgia during the nineteen nine a little bit in the 0:03:52.640 --> 0:03:56.760 nineteen nineties and early two thousands, Um, I hadn't heard 0:03:57.400 --> 0:04:00.920 of this case before you contacted me. How was child 0:04:00.960 --> 0:04:05.000 sex abuse addressed and discussed in the nineteen sixties and seventies? 0:04:05.040 --> 0:04:10.080 What kind of language was used? None? There, there, there, 0:04:10.200 --> 0:04:13.280 There was not really no, there was almost no dialogue 0:04:13.280 --> 0:04:16.599 about child sexual abuse in the sixties and seventies. You know, 0:04:16.680 --> 0:04:19.279 think about the social issues going on in the sixties 0:04:19.279 --> 0:04:24.200 and seventies, civil rights, you know, Vietnam. We had some 0:04:24.560 --> 0:04:28.880 massive issues that were you know, facing you know, our nation. 0:04:29.880 --> 0:04:33.240 Child sexual abuse was surely not rising to that level 0:04:33.279 --> 0:04:37.600 at that time. We had these incredible powerful social movements 0:04:37.640 --> 0:04:40.240 of a call to justice for racial you know, you know, 0:04:40.279 --> 0:04:43.720 starting to recognize that minority should be able to have 0:04:43.839 --> 0:04:48.680 access to voting, and desegregating schools, and lots of other 0:04:48.760 --> 0:04:53.239 big phenomenal shifts. If you think about Maslow's hierarchy of needs, 0:04:53.680 --> 0:04:56.440 we were at a much lower level that we were addressing, 0:04:56.560 --> 0:04:59.480 and child sexual abuse was not you know, at that point, 0:04:59.520 --> 0:05:02.520 reaching at tension. So it just wasn't garnering much attention, 0:05:03.360 --> 0:05:06.240 and even if there were something that was said, it 0:05:06.279 --> 0:05:10.200 was thought to be this very very rare thing that happens. 0:05:10.600 --> 0:05:14.120 You know, it would be very highly unusual because it 0:05:14.160 --> 0:05:17.880 didn't meet the picture of the perfect American family with 0:05:18.000 --> 0:05:21.119 a chicken in every pot, you know, and two point 0:05:21.200 --> 0:05:24.320 three kids. I think for people of my age born 0:05:24.360 --> 0:05:29.120 in the sixties, there were some real salient messages that 0:05:29.200 --> 0:05:32.599 we received, both in direct and subtle ways, and that is, 0:05:33.200 --> 0:05:35.120 if you don't have something nice to say, you don't 0:05:35.120 --> 0:05:38.760 say anything at all. Uh. Number two is you don't 0:05:38.839 --> 0:05:42.280 talk about adults. You're a kid. Um, you're you know, 0:05:42.320 --> 0:05:45.599 almost a different class of individual than an adult. They 0:05:45.640 --> 0:05:49.680 have rights that you don't have. Um, And that's just 0:05:49.760 --> 0:05:53.400 the way it is. And you know, so that really 0:05:53.480 --> 0:05:55.920 puts a damper on kids to be able to talk 0:05:55.960 --> 0:06:01.160 about things that are as challenging as child sexual abuse. Additionally, 0:06:01.200 --> 0:06:03.480 we did have these thoughts, and some of them have 0:06:03.640 --> 0:06:07.200 persisted that this notion of stranger danger, that you know, 0:06:07.240 --> 0:06:09.640 you need to be careful of strangers. There's some guy 0:06:09.760 --> 0:06:12.840 who might be doing something. Don't take candy from a stranger. 0:06:13.600 --> 0:06:16.279 You know, the image of the guy in the trench code. 0:06:16.320 --> 0:06:18.880 Who's going to maybe flash you all these kind of 0:06:18.960 --> 0:06:23.960 older images that we had um that were unfortunately widely 0:06:24.040 --> 0:06:27.480 mistaken with you know, what was happening in reality. I 0:06:27.520 --> 0:06:30.039 guess another one. And you know, some people may not 0:06:30.120 --> 0:06:33.360 even remember this, but in some of those early days, 0:06:33.400 --> 0:06:39.200 there was also some talk of these satanic cults that were, 0:06:39.240 --> 0:06:43.279 you know, holding these rituals where children were being sexually 0:06:43.279 --> 0:06:47.440 abused and they were being tortured by these Satanic cults 0:06:47.480 --> 0:06:50.800 that were doing things and people you wouldn't know. I mean, 0:06:50.839 --> 0:06:53.200 in some ways it hearkens a little bit to kind 0:06:53.240 --> 0:06:56.360 of the Q and on the dialogue of today, where 0:06:56.400 --> 0:06:59.360 you have this whole cabal of people that are engaged 0:06:59.400 --> 0:07:03.600 in these nefarious acts. I mean, the reality is that 0:07:03.640 --> 0:07:08.159 those were extraordinarily rare. This didn't happen, you know, although 0:07:08.160 --> 0:07:11.240 it was talked about. So with any kind of issue 0:07:11.280 --> 0:07:14.960 like this, it doesn't help if you're talking about extreme 0:07:15.040 --> 0:07:18.680 cases that aren't grounded in reality. Uh. And while strangers 0:07:18.680 --> 0:07:21.640 do commit some sexual assaults, now we know as we 0:07:21.680 --> 0:07:26.400 fast forward to more than of sexual abuses committed by 0:07:26.440 --> 0:07:29.840 someone the child knows, that's who has access to kids. 0:07:30.320 --> 0:07:34.360 Incidents of strangers sexually assaulting children are actually quite rare 0:07:34.440 --> 0:07:36.960 because parents just don't allow their kids to go off 0:07:36.960 --> 0:07:41.840 with strangers. Uh So the threat the for children is 0:07:41.920 --> 0:07:46.280 much more closer to home than necessarily. Um. The other 0:07:46.360 --> 0:07:49.320 issue is this idea that you know, anybody who was 0:07:49.400 --> 0:07:51.840 involved in doing things with youth used to be looked 0:07:51.840 --> 0:07:54.920 at with great esteem and was seen as someone who 0:07:54.960 --> 0:07:58.240 was graciously volunteering their time or committing their work to 0:07:58.320 --> 0:08:02.080 work with children in services. And we've really taken a 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:04.720 different slam on that over the last twenty five years, 0:08:04.720 --> 0:08:07.200 where now if I want to volunteer to be a 0:08:07.280 --> 0:08:10.440 boy scout, you know, leader, let's say, or any other 0:08:10.520 --> 0:08:12.560 kind of sometimes people are like, well, why would you 0:08:12.560 --> 0:08:14.840 want to do that? I even get that question in 0:08:14.960 --> 0:08:16.760 doing this work, like why do you want to do 0:08:16.840 --> 0:08:19.440 this work? You know, like there do you have some 0:08:19.600 --> 0:08:24.120 secondary goal you're trying to achieve? Uh And unfortunately the 0:08:24.160 --> 0:08:27.240 reality is we know that individuals who work sometimes in 0:08:27.320 --> 0:08:33.560 you serving organizations may have less than genuine interests involved. 0:08:33.559 --> 0:08:36.800 They may have a secondary interest. Can you tell me 0:08:36.840 --> 0:08:40.240 a little bit about grooming and how the initial contact 0:08:40.360 --> 0:08:43.360 is often made with abusers. This is a place where 0:08:43.400 --> 0:08:48.280 the head leader would select his abusers from the children 0:08:48.280 --> 0:08:51.679 he thought me have been more susceptible. Is that often 0:08:51.920 --> 0:08:55.640 a part of this process? You you mentioned the notion 0:08:55.679 --> 0:09:00.120 of grooming, and I'd like to talk about the the 0:09:00.160 --> 0:09:04.680 notion of grooming to to start off the dialogue. First, 0:09:05.040 --> 0:09:10.640 grooming is in every other context intended and used as 0:09:10.679 --> 0:09:14.320 a description of a pro social behavior. I take my 0:09:14.440 --> 0:09:17.920 dog to get groomed so the dog smells good, looks good, 0:09:18.080 --> 0:09:21.320 feels good. We groom a horse so they look good 0:09:21.360 --> 0:09:24.439 before they run in a race. We groom, let's say, 0:09:24.480 --> 0:09:28.880 a political candidate, so that they are prepared to engage 0:09:28.920 --> 0:09:32.920 and present themselves most appropriately. We all get groomed before 0:09:32.960 --> 0:09:35.840 we may go out to on an important event or 0:09:35.880 --> 0:09:38.680 a date, or our wedding, and those are all pro 0:09:38.840 --> 0:09:43.240 social activities. So I think before even responding about the 0:09:43.320 --> 0:09:46.800 issue of grooming, I want to challenge the audience to 0:09:46.840 --> 0:09:50.880 think about why do we use a word grooming to 0:09:51.040 --> 0:09:54.839 describe what an individual may do to sexually abuse a child. 0:09:54.880 --> 0:09:57.320 Why do we use a word that is just in 0:09:57.400 --> 0:10:00.480 every other context pro social. Why do we use that 0:10:00.600 --> 0:10:03.640 to describe what I would consider to be an antisocial behavior. 0:10:04.320 --> 0:10:07.080 I would like to challenge everybody to really think about 0:10:07.440 --> 0:10:10.680 the use of the word grooming versus using a much 0:10:10.679 --> 0:10:14.400 more appropriate word if you look at you know actual 0:10:14.440 --> 0:10:18.600 definitions and Miriam Webster, a much more appropriate word to 0:10:18.760 --> 0:10:22.079 describe what an individual who may sexually abuse a child 0:10:22.160 --> 0:10:25.800 is doing. Is not grooming, This is not pro social, 0:10:25.960 --> 0:10:32.640 this is antisocial. What they're doing is manipulating, manipulation, or manipulating. 0:10:32.640 --> 0:10:35.480 Those are much better words to describe what an individual 0:10:35.520 --> 0:10:38.440 who may sexually abuse a child is doing. They're taking 0:10:38.480 --> 0:10:42.000 advantage of someone whom they can deceive for their own 0:10:42.040 --> 0:10:45.719 personal advantage and gain without any concern for that individual. 0:10:46.160 --> 0:10:49.280 I think all of us recognize that manipulation or being 0:10:49.280 --> 0:10:51.960 manipulated is not something any of us want to have 0:10:52.080 --> 0:10:55.360 done to us, right, Nobody wants to be manipulated, and 0:10:55.440 --> 0:10:59.240 that's actually what individuals are doing. So words are important 0:10:59.440 --> 0:11:02.960 in the work. We've used grooming for a long long 0:11:03.040 --> 0:11:04.920 time and all of the people who work in my 0:11:05.040 --> 0:11:08.200 field know what it means, but maybe the average Joe 0:11:08.240 --> 0:11:11.200 doesn't necessarily know. It's that process that someone uses to 0:11:11.280 --> 0:11:14.160 engage a child, and not even just a child. I 0:11:14.160 --> 0:11:18.200 would say there's multiple levels of manipulation that occur. First, 0:11:19.760 --> 0:11:24.480 an individual will manipulate the broader environment, right like by 0:11:24.520 --> 0:11:28.599 having a good reputation and you know, being well respected 0:11:28.600 --> 0:11:31.800 in their community, like, oh, Chris could never do something 0:11:31.840 --> 0:11:34.560 like that. I've known Chris for twenty six years and 0:11:34.600 --> 0:11:37.679 I've only known him to be x. You know, those 0:11:37.720 --> 0:11:41.360 are about creating this environment where I'm manipulating everybody to 0:11:41.400 --> 0:11:43.959 think I'm a really good guy to hide the things 0:11:44.000 --> 0:11:48.760 that maybe I'm doing secretly. Another level of manipulation that 0:11:48.840 --> 0:11:55.040 happens is the manipulation of caregivers or trusted others. Um So, 0:11:55.200 --> 0:11:58.640 let's say you know someone an individual wants to have 0:11:58.720 --> 0:12:01.360 sexual contact with the child. Their first step really is 0:12:01.440 --> 0:12:05.600 to win over the parents or caregivers of that child 0:12:05.960 --> 0:12:08.920 so that they can have access to that child. Because 0:12:09.000 --> 0:12:11.679 until they can have that individual access with the child, 0:12:11.720 --> 0:12:14.200 they're not gonna have the opportunity to sexually abuse them. 0:12:14.920 --> 0:12:17.920 And that actually is a double edged sword because when 0:12:17.960 --> 0:12:21.360 you do, when that someone does gain the trust of 0:12:21.400 --> 0:12:24.480 a parent or a caregiver, it makes it even harder 0:12:24.840 --> 0:12:27.720 for that parent or caregiver to maybe see what's happening. 0:12:27.760 --> 0:12:30.120 Because I blindly look at you and say I trust you. 0:12:30.120 --> 0:12:32.640 I've kind of given you my blessing. So if something 0:12:32.679 --> 0:12:35.360 does come up, I mean it's I might find an 0:12:35.360 --> 0:12:39.760 explanation for why maybe there's not something to be concerned about. 0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:45.240 So it really is UM creates greater challenges in our work. 0:12:45.520 --> 0:12:48.680 And the last level of manipulation is actually manipulating the 0:12:48.800 --> 0:12:52.080 child and that requires different activities. We could have a 0:12:52.120 --> 0:12:56.559 whole sixteen you know series podcasts that to talk about, 0:12:56.800 --> 0:12:59.920 you know, kind of what. But I've seen over the years, 0:13:00.080 --> 0:13:02.959 and this is actually an area of intense interest for 0:13:03.040 --> 0:13:07.040 me because I started my career working actually with individuals 0:13:07.040 --> 0:13:09.640 who had sexually abused children. Was a clinical member of 0:13:09.640 --> 0:13:13.800 the Association for the Treatment of Sexual Abusers and really 0:13:13.840 --> 0:13:16.560 have you worked on the victim side, but understanding the 0:13:16.600 --> 0:13:20.199 approach that offenders may take and how to engage kids 0:13:20.200 --> 0:13:23.360 in this behavior in particular to the case that we're 0:13:23.400 --> 0:13:27.319 talking about here, the manipulation. The environment was, Hey, we're 0:13:27.600 --> 0:13:30.920 you know, taking on working with these challenging youth and 0:13:30.960 --> 0:13:33.760 we're going to be providing services for some kids that 0:13:33.800 --> 0:13:37.640 are really struggling, and we're doing important work here and 0:13:37.720 --> 0:13:39.920 you can trust us. And here's some of my past 0:13:40.000 --> 0:13:43.320 work and relationships that make me be a trustworthy person. 0:13:43.800 --> 0:13:46.280 And then who was referring these kids to them? Right, 0:13:46.360 --> 0:13:49.280 that's in this situation, that may be the caregiver, whether 0:13:49.320 --> 0:13:52.480 it's actually caregiver or other state agencies that were involved 0:13:52.480 --> 0:13:55.680 in supervision of youth who were saying, yes, we believe 0:13:55.720 --> 0:13:58.920 in you, and I've won them over, I've won their support. 0:13:59.520 --> 0:14:01.839 At that point, I'm alone, you know, with the kids 0:14:01.840 --> 0:14:05.080 in a system matter of identifying kids that I think 0:14:05.120 --> 0:14:08.800 I may be able to engage. So once you've cleared 0:14:08.840 --> 0:14:12.319 the first barrier of manipulating the environment, you've cleared the 0:14:12.360 --> 0:14:16.400 second barrier of manipulating caregivers or whoever that is, a 0:14:16.440 --> 0:14:19.760 parent or a social agency, whatever it may be. The 0:14:19.840 --> 0:14:22.760 last is the child. And it's not just a random 0:14:22.800 --> 0:14:24.920 approach where I'm just gonna try this. I'm gonna try 0:14:24.960 --> 0:14:27.560 to hit on every child. Necessarily, that's not the case. 0:14:28.400 --> 0:14:31.760 Individuals may have particular interests and who they're interested in 0:14:31.880 --> 0:14:34.320 or who they may have a desire to be in 0:14:34.360 --> 0:14:39.440 contact with. Um. They may also will almost always look 0:14:39.480 --> 0:14:42.360 at is this a child who I think I can 0:14:42.400 --> 0:14:45.360 manipulate or not? You know, if you have a child 0:14:45.400 --> 0:14:48.720 who always tells on everything everybody, for every little thing, 0:14:48.760 --> 0:14:51.560 they've ever done for every transgression. That's not who you're 0:14:51.560 --> 0:14:54.680 going after, right because that that individual is gonna, you know, 0:14:54.720 --> 0:14:57.880 tell What you want is someone who you can manipulate, 0:14:57.920 --> 0:15:00.800 who you don't want. I'm saying that in this scenario, 0:15:01.000 --> 0:15:02.800 I'm not saying this is a good thing. I'm definitely 0:15:02.840 --> 0:15:05.560 saying it's a bad thing. But what an offender is 0:15:05.600 --> 0:15:09.160 looking at is who can they manipulate, who is more vulnerable. 0:15:09.520 --> 0:15:13.320 It's just like what we learned on the Serengetti in Africa. 0:15:13.960 --> 0:15:16.600 You know, when the when the tigers or the lions 0:15:16.680 --> 0:15:19.840 are approaching, you know, a herd of animals, they look 0:15:19.880 --> 0:15:21.920 for the weak ones that are at the edge of 0:15:21.920 --> 0:15:24.520 the herd and they try to pick them off and 0:15:24.600 --> 0:15:29.600 building relationship. What's really insidious in this is the fact 0:15:29.640 --> 0:15:35.000 that in child sexual abuse, in many situations, the child 0:15:35.120 --> 0:15:38.200 ends up being sexually abused by someone who they consider 0:15:38.280 --> 0:15:43.400 their friend, someone who they like, and the offender in 0:15:43.440 --> 0:15:46.640 this scenario is making the kids like them where they 0:15:46.680 --> 0:15:50.240 are an important part of their life, because it makes 0:15:50.280 --> 0:15:52.680 it harder for you to tell on someone you really like. 0:15:52.840 --> 0:15:54.840 It's easy for any of us to tell on someone 0:15:54.920 --> 0:15:57.800 we hate when they've done something wrong right, like, oh hey, 0:15:57.800 --> 0:16:00.480 this person, I hate them they did this. But when 0:16:00.480 --> 0:16:03.840 it's someone we like, we're less likely to And offenders 0:16:03.920 --> 0:16:09.200 are very manipulative. In this so long story, short grooming 0:16:09.320 --> 0:16:12.000 I think is passe. Let's use the best word it is. 0:16:12.360 --> 0:16:15.880 This is manipulation that's happening at multiple levels. And people 0:16:15.920 --> 0:16:19.720 are very intentional about who they seek as a victim 0:16:19.760 --> 0:16:22.360 because they want to avoid detection so they can continue 0:16:22.400 --> 0:16:43.280 the behavior. Has there been a history of abuse associated 0:16:43.360 --> 0:16:46.680 with troubled and emotionally disturbed you? I think when we 0:16:46.720 --> 0:16:51.320 look across the plane of all youth that are out there, um, 0:16:51.360 --> 0:16:53.520 you know, there are certain individuals who may be more 0:16:53.600 --> 0:16:57.720 vulnerable by virtue of some of their past. Like if, 0:16:58.200 --> 0:17:01.640 for example, what do we all think about the credibility 0:17:01.680 --> 0:17:05.760 of a valedictorian in high school who also was a 0:17:05.840 --> 0:17:10.920 two sport letter person and was president of the senior 0:17:11.000 --> 0:17:15.840 class UH and has multiple scholarships off offers. You know, 0:17:15.960 --> 0:17:20.080 what do we think about that person's credibility versus an 0:17:20.080 --> 0:17:24.440 individual who has been an alternative school for four years 0:17:25.320 --> 0:17:30.000 um and has not done anything anything of any significance 0:17:30.040 --> 0:17:33.040 at an academic or a sports level, hasn't been involved 0:17:33.040 --> 0:17:36.320 in any youth groups or activities, doesn't participate in church. 0:17:36.640 --> 0:17:39.280 What do we just immediately assign As far as the 0:17:39.280 --> 0:17:42.600 credibility between those two, I think all of you know, 0:17:42.680 --> 0:17:46.240 it's very natural for people to maybe be less likely 0:17:46.320 --> 0:17:50.679 to believe what the kid who's been an alternative school 0:17:50.720 --> 0:17:54.680 and not had these other accomplishments. We all have implicit 0:17:54.760 --> 0:17:57.440 bias and what we believe, and it impacts child abuse 0:17:57.880 --> 0:18:02.040 because children oftentimes who have more troubled backgrounds or less 0:18:02.080 --> 0:18:04.679 likely to be believed. You know, Chris has been in 0:18:04.680 --> 0:18:06.879 trouble his whole life. He has been nothing but trouble. 0:18:06.960 --> 0:18:09.640 You can't trust a word, he says. All of that 0:18:09.760 --> 0:18:12.600 makes me even more vulnerable as a victim, because no 0:18:12.640 --> 0:18:15.679 one's gonna believe when I disclose, or less likely or 0:18:15.840 --> 0:18:19.640 they are less likely to believe if I've expressed a concern. So, 0:18:19.840 --> 0:18:22.199 if you are wanting to sexually abuse children, who do 0:18:22.240 --> 0:18:25.320 you go after? You go after the valedictorian or do 0:18:25.320 --> 0:18:28.240 you go after the alternative school kid? I think you know, 0:18:28.560 --> 0:18:30.520 most of the time what we see is kids who 0:18:30.520 --> 0:18:34.000 are vulnerable and less likely to be believed or less 0:18:34.080 --> 0:18:37.200 likely for you know, for there to be supervision. Those 0:18:37.240 --> 0:18:39.719 are the individuals who are more likely to be targeted, 0:18:39.880 --> 0:18:43.160 and I use that word intentionally. Children would often stay 0:18:43.240 --> 0:18:47.359 Louis Petter would have this inner circle of kids who 0:18:47.400 --> 0:18:50.680 would often stay at his house well where this abuse 0:18:50.720 --> 0:18:53.639 would go on, even living with him and his family. 0:18:53.840 --> 0:18:57.240 And then he's abusing these kids in the same house 0:18:57.720 --> 0:19:01.399 as his wife and children and daughter are in just 0:19:01.480 --> 0:19:06.000 the next room. Um, how do families in a situation 0:19:06.040 --> 0:19:08.479 like this often deal with having an abuser in their family? 0:19:08.640 --> 0:19:12.919 And the situation that you describe with him involving kind 0:19:12.960 --> 0:19:16.000 of having a special class of individuals that get to 0:19:16.040 --> 0:19:19.960 come spend the time in his house. For many of them, 0:19:20.040 --> 0:19:23.080 that probably most likely made them in a way feel 0:19:23.200 --> 0:19:27.679 very special. They again, the manipulation of you get to 0:19:27.720 --> 0:19:30.040 do something that other people don't get to do, you 0:19:30.119 --> 0:19:33.000 get to have access to something that other people don't 0:19:33.000 --> 0:19:36.719 get to have access to, makes it where they you know, 0:19:36.760 --> 0:19:40.439 this confusing notion of Okay, but I'm special. Now that 0:19:40.520 --> 0:19:42.440 some of this stuff feels weird, but I get all 0:19:42.480 --> 0:19:46.480 these extra privileges or opportunities that other people don't get. 0:19:47.280 --> 0:19:49.800 You know, I'm special, And especially for someone who may 0:19:49.800 --> 0:19:52.680 be at a wilderness camp who hasn't maybe oftentimes felt 0:19:52.720 --> 0:19:55.680 special in their life or been important to someone else. 0:19:56.560 --> 0:20:00.399 That can be very powerful for them, not in a 0:20:00.440 --> 0:20:04.440 sexual way, but just to feel respected, to feel wanted, 0:20:04.560 --> 0:20:08.120 to feel a part of something, the other thing that 0:20:08.560 --> 0:20:11.520 and when you were, you know, thinking about this, being 0:20:11.560 --> 0:20:14.199 in the home with the spouse, with a partner, and 0:20:14.280 --> 0:20:18.159 with other kids. Come on, most people are gonna like, Okay, 0:20:18.200 --> 0:20:20.840 that's not where abuse would happen. No way, he's doing 0:20:20.840 --> 0:20:23.040 it in the house. It makes it almost even harder 0:20:23.080 --> 0:20:26.520 to believe, right because how can you get away with it? 0:20:26.880 --> 0:20:29.800 Your wife's there, you're the kids are there. You know, 0:20:29.840 --> 0:20:33.040 that doesn't make sense that it can happen. The reality is, 0:20:33.480 --> 0:20:35.920 I can't tell you how many cases I've seen where 0:20:36.240 --> 0:20:41.320 individuals were sexually abused while people were right there. It 0:20:41.359 --> 0:20:43.840 could even be in the same room under a blanket 0:20:44.040 --> 0:20:48.000 where people touching is occurring. You know, the situations of 0:20:48.040 --> 0:20:51.119 maybe a child sitting on grandfather's lap and the grandmother's 0:20:51.160 --> 0:20:54.159 in the room right next door cooking, and they're watching 0:20:54.200 --> 0:20:57.159 a movie and have a blanket, and sexual abuse is 0:20:57.200 --> 0:21:00.200 happening right there. Now when you ask the grandmother, but 0:21:00.320 --> 0:21:02.160 there's no way I was there. The whole time, there's 0:21:02.160 --> 0:21:04.600 no way he could have done it. It makes it 0:21:04.720 --> 0:21:07.879 less believable. And there actually is some research that says 0:21:07.960 --> 0:21:10.680 that a significant amount of research is done when people 0:21:10.720 --> 0:21:14.280 are either in the room or in neighboring rooms, in 0:21:14.320 --> 0:21:16.840 an environment where you almost couldn't believe that it would happen. 0:21:17.320 --> 0:21:20.360 The fact that the kids probably felt special for being 0:21:20.400 --> 0:21:22.840 in that setting, like I'm in this special class, I 0:21:22.840 --> 0:21:25.359 get to be there. Plus he gets you know, for 0:21:25.440 --> 0:21:28.120 the individual says, you know, but my family was here, 0:21:28.240 --> 0:21:31.600 there's no way maybe that something happened. All those are 0:21:31.800 --> 0:21:36.280 very are extraordinary measures of manipulating an environment to make 0:21:36.320 --> 0:21:39.960 it less likely for someone to disclose and less likely 0:21:40.000 --> 0:21:43.440 for anyone to believe if the child does disclose because 0:21:43.440 --> 0:21:49.840 it sounds unbelievable. Um, the reality is, um, it happens. 0:21:49.880 --> 0:21:51.919 It happens all the time. It happens in front of 0:21:51.920 --> 0:21:55.639 people without them even being aware. We've seen examples of 0:21:55.680 --> 0:21:59.399 abuse in an institution such as Antawaki in other places 0:22:00.040 --> 0:22:03.199 such as the case of Jerry Sandusky, or instances of 0:22:03.240 --> 0:22:06.320 abuse in the Catholic Church. Is it harder to get 0:22:06.320 --> 0:22:09.440 something done when it is attached to an institution such 0:22:09.480 --> 0:22:11.760 as that you know, there's a I think the saying 0:22:12.160 --> 0:22:15.800 is you know, Jesse, it's attributed I believe to Jesse James, like, 0:22:16.040 --> 0:22:19.840 you know, why do you rob banks? You know? And 0:22:19.920 --> 0:22:23.200 Jesse James said, because that's where the money is, right, 0:22:23.880 --> 0:22:30.040 you know, where kids they're in, you know, you serving organizations. 0:22:30.240 --> 0:22:32.160 If they're not in your family, they're not in your home, 0:22:32.160 --> 0:22:34.800 they're not your neighbor that you had. You the one 0:22:34.800 --> 0:22:39.000 way you gain access as kids is by being involved 0:22:39.000 --> 0:22:41.760 with youth serving organizations or where the kids are. You know, 0:22:41.840 --> 0:22:44.040 So if you want to sexually abuse kids, you know, 0:22:44.080 --> 0:22:45.879 it's kind of like Jesse James going to the bank, 0:22:46.160 --> 0:22:50.359 you go to where the kids are. Uh So, I 0:22:50.400 --> 0:22:54.520 think historically we kind of knew that, but we didn't 0:22:54.640 --> 0:22:57.800 internalize it as much because we had this notion of 0:22:57.880 --> 0:23:00.720 these were really good and say things, and many most 0:23:00.720 --> 0:23:03.320 of the time they are. But you know, think about 0:23:03.359 --> 0:23:06.880 the last decade or longer, you know, with what we've 0:23:06.920 --> 0:23:08.960 seen in the Catholic Church, what we you know, and 0:23:10.080 --> 0:23:13.560 what we've seen in youth serving organizations of all kinds, 0:23:13.680 --> 0:23:17.480 we you know, uh, sporting activities. We we have had 0:23:17.480 --> 0:23:20.320 the wool pull back on that and there has really 0:23:20.320 --> 0:23:25.240 been a clarion call to hold youth serving organizations accountable 0:23:25.280 --> 0:23:28.399 that they need to have certain procedures in place. You know, 0:23:28.440 --> 0:23:31.320 we work, we partner with a number of youth serving 0:23:31.400 --> 0:23:35.000 organizations to provide assistance in this area because they have 0:23:35.040 --> 0:23:38.160 to recognize that there are risks involved and they need 0:23:38.200 --> 0:23:40.760 to make sure that they're mitigating those risks to the 0:23:40.840 --> 0:23:45.480 very best of their ability while still providing their mission. Now, 0:23:45.520 --> 0:23:47.679 if we go back to the seventies, we did we 0:23:47.680 --> 0:23:50.159