1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,199 Speaker 1: Camp hell Anawaki is a production of I Heart Radio. 2 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:06,360 Speaker 1: The views and opinions express in this podcast are solely 3 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:09,360 Speaker 1: those of the author and participants and do not necessarily 4 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:12,760 Speaker 1: represent those of I Heart Media or its employees. Due 5 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:16,919 Speaker 1: to discussion of traumatic, sexual and violent content, listener discussion 6 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: is advised. For this week's episode, we are taking a 7 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:24,800 Speaker 1: break from our story to share a very important interview 8 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:29,440 Speaker 1: we conducted. Chris Newland is head of the National Children's 9 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:33,720 Speaker 1: Advocacy Center. The n c a C was the very 10 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:38,879 Speaker 1: first children's advocacy center starting and has gone on to 11 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 1: help with the issue of child abuse in groundbreaking ways. 12 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:46,600 Speaker 1: Chris answered some of our questions about child abuse, a 13 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 1: very sensitive subject that we are still learning about to 14 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 1: this day. I hope you enjoy and learn something from 15 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 1: this interview. It is one that we all should hear. 16 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 1: My name is Chris Newland, and I am the executive 17 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:07,760 Speaker 1: director at the National Children's Advocacy Center. Some of you 18 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:11,000 Speaker 1: may have heard of a Children's Advocacy center before, but 19 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 1: the National Children's Advocacy Center is located in Huntsville, Alabama, 20 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:17,400 Speaker 1: and we were actually the first child advocacy center in 21 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:21,080 Speaker 1: the world. Um at Children's advocacy centers. What we do 22 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 1: is coordinate the multidisciplinary response to child abuse in our communities. 23 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:30,640 Speaker 1: And this model includes partnerships and collaborations with law enforcement, 24 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:37,280 Speaker 1: child protective services, medical providers, mental health professionals, prosecutors, victim advocates, 25 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:41,160 Speaker 1: so all of us working in a coordinated manner. At 26 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:45,520 Speaker 1: a child advocacy center. We conduct forensic interviews, we do 27 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:50,280 Speaker 1: medical exams, We provide victim advocacy for children and families 28 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 1: when there's allegations of abuse. We do provide therapy and 29 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 1: all these services in a child friendly environment. And this 30 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:02,000 Speaker 1: whole model, which started nine eight five, has revolutionized our 31 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 1: nation's response to child abuse and how we are making 32 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 1: the process much more child friendly and trauma informed and 33 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 1: not causing children to be re traumatized by a system 34 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 1: that should actually help them. And this model has really 35 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 1: taken over the U S. We have a more than 36 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:22,280 Speaker 1: a thousand child because centers across the United States that 37 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:25,400 Speaker 1: serve over three d seventy thousand kids per year. And 38 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 1: this model also has been replicated in more than thirty 39 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:30,640 Speaker 1: three countries around the world who see the benefit of 40 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 1: having a coordinated, multidisciplinary response responding to child abuse is 41 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 1: not something that can be done by one agency or 42 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 1: one organization. It requires all of us working together and 43 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 1: prioritizing the needs of the child and making sure we're 44 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 1: providing services to them and doing our best job to 45 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:50,639 Speaker 1: hold those who harmed children accountable. We opened in May 46 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 1: of just kind of actually at a time when our 47 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:57,600 Speaker 1: country was beginning to recognize that child sexual abuse is 48 00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:00,120 Speaker 1: an issue. You know, a few years before that, we 49 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:03,239 Speaker 1: had had the McMartin preschool case, which was a daycare 50 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:07,520 Speaker 1: case in California that garnered a fair amount of media attention. Uh, 51 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 1: and we were beginning to understand what actually is this 52 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 1: issue of child sexualities because it's really only been in 53 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 1: this since the sixties that we were even talking more 54 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 1: publicly about physical abuse and child physical abuse. Um. So 55 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 1: there's there's I guess a lot of history there. But 56 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:27,640 Speaker 1: we opened our doors in nineteen five, and we have 57 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 1: seen this incredible growth over the last thirty six years 58 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:34,080 Speaker 1: of children's advocacy centers spreading out all across the United 59 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 1: States where actually more than seventy of American counties are 60 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:41,040 Speaker 1: served by a child advocacy centers. Had you heard of 61 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 1: this case at all before? I called you and spoken 62 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 1: to yesterday. I had not actually, despite having lived in 63 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 1: Georgia during the nineteen nine a little bit in the 64 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 1: nineteen nineties and early two thousands, Um, I hadn't heard 65 00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 1: of this case before you contacted me. How was child 66 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 1: sex abuse addressed and discussed in the nineteen sixties and seventies? 67 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 1: What kind of language was used? None? There, there, there, 68 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 1: There was not really no, there was almost no dialogue 69 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:16,599 Speaker 1: about child sexual abuse in the sixties and seventies. You know, 70 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:19,279 Speaker 1: think about the social issues going on in the sixties 71 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 1: and seventies, civil rights, you know, Vietnam. We had some 72 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 1: massive issues that were you know, facing you know, our nation. 73 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 1: Child sexual abuse was surely not rising to that level 74 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:37,600 Speaker 1: at that time. We had these incredible powerful social movements 75 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 1: of a call to justice for racial you know, you know, 76 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:43,720 Speaker 1: starting to recognize that minority should be able to have 77 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 1: access to voting, and desegregating schools, and lots of other 78 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:53,239 Speaker 1: big phenomenal shifts. If you think about Maslow's hierarchy of needs, 79 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:56,440 Speaker 1: we were at a much lower level that we were addressing, 80 00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:59,480 Speaker 1: and child sexual abuse was not you know, at that point, 81 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 1: reaching at tension. So it just wasn't garnering much attention, 82 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 1: and even if there were something that was said, it 83 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 1: was thought to be this very very rare thing that happens. 84 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 1: You know, it would be very highly unusual because it 85 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 1: didn't meet the picture of the perfect American family with 86 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:21,119 Speaker 1: a chicken in every pot, you know, and two point 87 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 1: three kids. I think for people of my age born 88 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 1: in the sixties, there were some real salient messages that 89 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:32,599 Speaker 1: we received, both in direct and subtle ways, and that is, 90 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 1: if you don't have something nice to say, you don't 91 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 1: say anything at all. Uh. Number two is you don't 92 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:42,280 Speaker 1: talk about adults. You're a kid. Um, you're you know, 93 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:45,599 Speaker 1: almost a different class of individual than an adult. They 94 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 1: have rights that you don't have. Um, And that's just 95 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 1: the way it is. And you know, so that really 96 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:55,920 Speaker 1: puts a damper on kids to be able to talk 97 00:05:55,960 --> 00:06:01,160 Speaker 1: about things that are as challenging as child sexual abuse. Additionally, 98 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:03,480 Speaker 1: we did have these thoughts, and some of them have 99 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 1: persisted that this notion of stranger danger, that you know, 100 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 1: you need to be careful of strangers. There's some guy 101 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:12,840 Speaker 1: who might be doing something. Don't take candy from a stranger. 102 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:16,279 Speaker 1: You know, the image of the guy in the trench code. 103 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 1: Who's going to maybe flash you all these kind of 104 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 1: older images that we had um that were unfortunately widely 105 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:27,480 Speaker 1: mistaken with you know, what was happening in reality. I 106 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:30,039 Speaker 1: guess another one. And you know, some people may not 107 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:33,360 Speaker 1: even remember this, but in some of those early days, 108 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 1: there was also some talk of these satanic cults that were, 109 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:43,279 Speaker 1: you know, holding these rituals where children were being sexually 110 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 1: abused and they were being tortured by these Satanic cults 111 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 1: that were doing things and people you wouldn't know. I mean, 112 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 1: in some ways it hearkens a little bit to kind 113 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:56,360 Speaker 1: of the Q and on the dialogue of today, where 114 00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:59,360 Speaker 1: you have this whole cabal of people that are engaged 115 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:03,600 Speaker 1: in these nefarious acts. I mean, the reality is that 116 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:08,159 Speaker 1: those were extraordinarily rare. This didn't happen, you know, although 117 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:11,240 Speaker 1: it was talked about. So with any kind of issue 118 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 1: like this, it doesn't help if you're talking about extreme 119 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:18,680 Speaker 1: cases that aren't grounded in reality. Uh. And while strangers 120 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 1: do commit some sexual assaults, now we know as we 121 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:26,400 Speaker 1: fast forward to more than of sexual abuses committed by 122 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:29,840 Speaker 1: someone the child knows, that's who has access to kids. 123 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 1: Incidents of strangers sexually assaulting children are actually quite rare 124 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 1: because parents just don't allow their kids to go off 125 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 1: with strangers. Uh So the threat the for children is 126 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 1: much more closer to home than necessarily. Um. The other 127 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 1: issue is this idea that you know, anybody who was 128 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 1: involved in doing things with youth used to be looked 129 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 1: at with great esteem and was seen as someone who 130 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 1: was graciously volunteering their time or committing their work to 131 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 1: work with children in services. And we've really taken a 132 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 1: different slam on that over the last twenty five years, 133 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:07,200 Speaker 1: where now if I want to volunteer to be a 134 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 1: boy scout, you know, leader, let's say, or any other 135 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 1: kind of sometimes people are like, well, why would you 136 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 1: want to do that? I even get that question in 137 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:16,760 Speaker 1: doing this work, like why do you want to do 138 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 1: this work? You know, like there do you have some 139 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:24,120 Speaker 1: secondary goal you're trying to achieve? Uh And unfortunately the 140 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 1: reality is we know that individuals who work sometimes in 141 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:33,560 Speaker 1: you serving organizations may have less than genuine interests involved. 142 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 1: They may have a secondary interest. Can you tell me 143 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 1: a little bit about grooming and how the initial contact 144 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:43,360 Speaker 1: is often made with abusers. This is a place where 145 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 1: the head leader would select his abusers from the children 146 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:51,679 Speaker 1: he thought me have been more susceptible. Is that often 147 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 1: a part of this process? You you mentioned the notion 148 00:08:55,679 --> 00:09:00,120 Speaker 1: of grooming, and I'd like to talk about the the 149 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:04,680 Speaker 1: notion of grooming to to start off the dialogue. First, 150 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 1: grooming is in every other context intended and used as 151 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:14,320 Speaker 1: a description of a pro social behavior. I take my 152 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 1: dog to get groomed so the dog smells good, looks good, 153 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:21,320 Speaker 1: feels good. We groom a horse so they look good 154 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:24,439 Speaker 1: before they run in a race. We groom, let's say, 155 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 1: a political candidate, so that they are prepared to engage 156 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 1: and present themselves most appropriately. We all get groomed before 157 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:35,840 Speaker 1: we may go out to on an important event or 158 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:38,680 Speaker 1: a date, or our wedding, and those are all pro 159 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 1: social activities. So I think before even responding about the 160 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 1: issue of grooming, I want to challenge the audience to 161 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:50,880 Speaker 1: think about why do we use a word grooming to 162 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:54,839 Speaker 1: describe what an individual may do to sexually abuse a child. 163 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:57,320 Speaker 1: Why do we use a word that is just in 164 00:09:57,400 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 1: every other context pro social. Why do we use that 165 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:03,640 Speaker 1: to describe what I would consider to be an antisocial behavior. 166 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:07,080 Speaker 1: I would like to challenge everybody to really think about 167 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:10,680 Speaker 1: the use of the word grooming versus using a much 168 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 1: more appropriate word if you look at you know actual 169 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 1: definitions and Miriam Webster, a much more appropriate word to 170 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:22,079 Speaker 1: describe what an individual who may sexually abuse a child 171 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 1: is doing. Is not grooming, This is not pro social, 172 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 1: this is antisocial. What they're doing is manipulating, manipulation, or manipulating. 173 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 1: Those are much better words to describe what an individual 174 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 1: who may sexually abuse a child is doing. They're taking 175 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 1: advantage of someone whom they can deceive for their own 176 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:45,719 Speaker 1: personal advantage and gain without any concern for that individual. 177 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 1: I think all of us recognize that manipulation or being 178 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:51,960 Speaker 1: manipulated is not something any of us want to have 179 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:55,360 Speaker 1: done to us, right, Nobody wants to be manipulated, and 180 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 1: that's actually what individuals are doing. So words are important 181 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:02,960 Speaker 1: in the work. We've used grooming for a long long 182 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 1: time and all of the people who work in my 183 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:08,200 Speaker 1: field know what it means, but maybe the average Joe 184 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:11,200 Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily know. It's that process that someone uses to 185 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 1: engage a child, and not even just a child. I 186 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:18,200 Speaker 1: would say there's multiple levels of manipulation that occur. First, 187 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 1: an individual will manipulate the broader environment, right like by 188 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:28,599 Speaker 1: having a good reputation and you know, being well respected 189 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:31,800 Speaker 1: in their community, like, oh, Chris could never do something 190 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:34,560 Speaker 1: like that. I've known Chris for twenty six years and 191 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:37,679 Speaker 1: I've only known him to be x. You know, those 192 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 1: are about creating this environment where I'm manipulating everybody to 193 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:43,959 Speaker 1: think I'm a really good guy to hide the things 194 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 1: that maybe I'm doing secretly. Another level of manipulation that 195 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:55,040 Speaker 1: happens is the manipulation of caregivers or trusted others. Um So, 196 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:58,640 Speaker 1: let's say you know someone an individual wants to have 197 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:01,360 Speaker 1: sexual contact with the child. Their first step really is 198 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 1: to win over the parents or caregivers of that child 199 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 1: so that they can have access to that child. Because 200 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:11,679 Speaker 1: until they can have that individual access with the child, 201 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:14,200 Speaker 1: they're not gonna have the opportunity to sexually abuse them. 202 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 1: And that actually is a double edged sword because when 203 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:21,360 Speaker 1: you do, when that someone does gain the trust of 204 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 1: a parent or a caregiver, it makes it even harder 205 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:27,720 Speaker 1: for that parent or caregiver to maybe see what's happening. 206 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:30,120 Speaker 1: Because I blindly look at you and say I trust you. 207 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:32,640 Speaker 1: I've kind of given you my blessing. So if something 208 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 1: does come up, I mean it's I might find an 209 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:39,760 Speaker 1: explanation for why maybe there's not something to be concerned about. 210 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 1: So it really is UM creates greater challenges in our work. 211 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:48,680 Speaker 1: And the last level of manipulation is actually manipulating the 212 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:52,080 Speaker 1: child and that requires different activities. We could have a 213 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:56,559 Speaker 1: whole sixteen you know series podcasts that to talk about, 214 00:12:56,800 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 1: you know, kind of what. But I've seen over the years, 215 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:02,959 Speaker 1: and this is actually an area of intense interest for 216 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 1: me because I started my career working actually with individuals 217 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:09,640 Speaker 1: who had sexually abused children. Was a clinical member of 218 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:13,800 Speaker 1: the Association for the Treatment of Sexual Abusers and really 219 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:16,560 Speaker 1: have you worked on the victim side, but understanding the 220 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:20,199 Speaker 1: approach that offenders may take and how to engage kids 221 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:23,360 Speaker 1: in this behavior in particular to the case that we're 222 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:27,319 Speaker 1: talking about here, the manipulation. The environment was, Hey, we're 223 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 1: you know, taking on working with these challenging youth and 224 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:33,760 Speaker 1: we're going to be providing services for some kids that 225 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:37,640 Speaker 1: are really struggling, and we're doing important work here and 226 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 1: you can trust us. And here's some of my past 227 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:43,320 Speaker 1: work and relationships that make me be a trustworthy person. 228 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 1: And then who was referring these kids to them? Right, 229 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 1: that's in this situation, that may be the caregiver, whether 230 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 1: it's actually caregiver or other state agencies that were involved 231 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:55,680 Speaker 1: in supervision of youth who were saying, yes, we believe 232 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:58,920 Speaker 1: in you, and I've won them over, I've won their support. 233 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:01,839 Speaker 1: At that point, I'm alone, you know, with the kids 234 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:05,080 Speaker 1: in a system matter of identifying kids that I think 235 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:08,800 Speaker 1: I may be able to engage. So once you've cleared 236 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:12,319 Speaker 1: the first barrier of manipulating the environment, you've cleared the 237 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:16,400 Speaker 1: second barrier of manipulating caregivers or whoever that is, a 238 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:19,760 Speaker 1: parent or a social agency, whatever it may be. The 239 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 1: last is the child. And it's not just a random 240 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:24,920 Speaker 1: approach where I'm just gonna try this. I'm gonna try 241 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:27,560 Speaker 1: to hit on every child. Necessarily, that's not the case. 242 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 1: Individuals may have particular interests and who they're interested in 243 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 1: or who they may have a desire to be in 244 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 1: contact with. Um. They may also will almost always look 245 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 1: at is this a child who I think I can 246 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:45,360 Speaker 1: manipulate or not? You know, if you have a child 247 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:48,720 Speaker 1: who always tells on everything everybody, for every little thing, 248 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 1: they've ever done for every transgression. That's not who you're 249 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:54,680 Speaker 1: going after, right because that that individual is gonna, you know, 250 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 1: tell What you want is someone who you can manipulate, 251 00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:00,800 Speaker 1: who you don't want. I'm saying that in this scenario, 252 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 1: I'm not saying this is a good thing. I'm definitely 253 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:05,560 Speaker 1: saying it's a bad thing. But what an offender is 254 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:09,160 Speaker 1: looking at is who can they manipulate, who is more vulnerable. 255 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 1: It's just like what we learned on the Serengetti in Africa. 256 00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 1: You know, when the when the tigers or the lions 257 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 1: are approaching, you know, a herd of animals, they look 258 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 1: for the weak ones that are at the edge of 259 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 1: the herd and they try to pick them off and 260 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 1: building relationship. What's really insidious in this is the fact 261 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:35,000 Speaker 1: that in child sexual abuse, in many situations, the child 262 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 1: ends up being sexually abused by someone who they consider 263 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 1: their friend, someone who they like, and the offender in 264 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 1: this scenario is making the kids like them where they 265 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 1: are an important part of their life, because it makes 266 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:52,680 Speaker 1: it harder for you to tell on someone you really like. 267 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:54,840 Speaker 1: It's easy for any of us to tell on someone 268 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 1: we hate when they've done something wrong right, like, oh hey, 269 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 1: this person, I hate them they did this. But when 270 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:03,840 Speaker 1: it's someone we like, we're less likely to And offenders 271 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 1: are very manipulative. In this so long story, short grooming 272 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 1: I think is passe. Let's use the best word it is. 273 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 1: This is manipulation that's happening at multiple levels. And people 274 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 1: are very intentional about who they seek as a victim 275 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 1: because they want to avoid detection so they can continue 276 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 1: the behavior. Has there been a history of abuse associated 277 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 1: with troubled and emotionally disturbed you? I think when we 278 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 1: look across the plane of all youth that are out there, um, 279 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:53,520 Speaker 1: you know, there are certain individuals who may be more 280 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 1: vulnerable by virtue of some of their past. Like if, 281 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 1: for example, what do we all think about the credibility 282 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 1: of a valedictorian in high school who also was a 283 00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:10,920 Speaker 1: two sport letter person and was president of the senior 284 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 1: class UH and has multiple scholarships off offers. You know, 285 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:20,080 Speaker 1: what do we think about that person's credibility versus an 286 00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:24,440 Speaker 1: individual who has been an alternative school for four years 287 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:30,000 Speaker 1: um and has not done anything anything of any significance 288 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:33,040 Speaker 1: at an academic or a sports level, hasn't been involved 289 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 1: in any youth groups or activities, doesn't participate in church. 290 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 1: What do we just immediately assign As far as the 291 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 1: credibility between those two, I think all of you know, 292 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 1: it's very natural for people to maybe be less likely 293 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:50,679 Speaker 1: to believe what the kid who's been an alternative school 294 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:54,680 Speaker 1: and not had these other accomplishments. We all have implicit 295 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:57,440 Speaker 1: bias and what we believe, and it impacts child abuse 296 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:02,040 Speaker 1: because children oftentimes who have more troubled backgrounds or less 297 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:04,679 Speaker 1: likely to be believed. You know, Chris has been in 298 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:06,879 Speaker 1: trouble his whole life. He has been nothing but trouble. 299 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:09,640 Speaker 1: You can't trust a word, he says. All of that 300 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 1: makes me even more vulnerable as a victim, because no 301 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:15,679 Speaker 1: one's gonna believe when I disclose, or less likely or 302 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:19,640 Speaker 1: they are less likely to believe if I've expressed a concern. So, 303 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:22,199 Speaker 1: if you are wanting to sexually abuse children, who do 304 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 1: you go after? You go after the valedictorian or do 305 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:28,240 Speaker 1: you go after the alternative school kid? I think you know, 306 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 1: most of the time what we see is kids who 307 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:34,000 Speaker 1: are vulnerable and less likely to be believed or less 308 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:37,200 Speaker 1: likely for you know, for there to be supervision. Those 309 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:39,719 Speaker 1: are the individuals who are more likely to be targeted, 310 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:43,160 Speaker 1: and I use that word intentionally. Children would often stay 311 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:47,359 Speaker 1: Louis Petter would have this inner circle of kids who 312 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:50,680 Speaker 1: would often stay at his house well where this abuse 313 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:53,639 Speaker 1: would go on, even living with him and his family. 314 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:57,240 Speaker 1: And then he's abusing these kids in the same house 315 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:01,399 Speaker 1: as his wife and children and daughter are in just 316 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 1: the next room. Um, how do families in a situation 317 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:08,479 Speaker 1: like this often deal with having an abuser in their family? 318 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:12,919 Speaker 1: And the situation that you describe with him involving kind 319 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 1: of having a special class of individuals that get to 320 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:19,960 Speaker 1: come spend the time in his house. For many of them, 321 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:23,080 Speaker 1: that probably most likely made them in a way feel 322 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:27,679 Speaker 1: very special. They again, the manipulation of you get to 323 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 1: do something that other people don't get to do, you 324 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:33,000 Speaker 1: get to have access to something that other people don't 325 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:36,719 Speaker 1: get to have access to, makes it where they you know, 326 00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:40,439 Speaker 1: this confusing notion of Okay, but I'm special. Now that 327 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:42,440 Speaker 1: some of this stuff feels weird, but I get all 328 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:46,480 Speaker 1: these extra privileges or opportunities that other people don't get. 329 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 1: You know, I'm special, And especially for someone who may 330 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:52,680 Speaker 1: be at a wilderness camp who hasn't maybe oftentimes felt 331 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:55,680 Speaker 1: special in their life or been important to someone else. 332 00:19:56,560 --> 00:20:00,399 Speaker 1: That can be very powerful for them, not in a 333 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:04,440 Speaker 1: sexual way, but just to feel respected, to feel wanted, 334 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:08,120 Speaker 1: to feel a part of something, the other thing that 335 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:11,520 Speaker 1: and when you were, you know, thinking about this, being 336 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:14,199 Speaker 1: in the home with the spouse, with a partner, and 337 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:18,159 Speaker 1: with other kids. Come on, most people are gonna like, Okay, 338 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:20,840 Speaker 1: that's not where abuse would happen. No way, he's doing 339 00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:23,040 Speaker 1: it in the house. It makes it almost even harder 340 00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 1: to believe, right because how can you get away with it? 341 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:29,800 Speaker 1: Your wife's there, you're the kids are there. You know, 342 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:33,040 Speaker 1: that doesn't make sense that it can happen. The reality is, 343 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:35,920 Speaker 1: I can't tell you how many cases I've seen where 344 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:41,320 Speaker 1: individuals were sexually abused while people were right there. It 345 00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:43,840 Speaker 1: could even be in the same room under a blanket 346 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 1: where people touching is occurring. You know, the situations of 347 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:51,119 Speaker 1: maybe a child sitting on grandfather's lap and the grandmother's 348 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:54,159 Speaker 1: in the room right next door cooking, and they're watching 349 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:57,159 Speaker 1: a movie and have a blanket, and sexual abuse is 350 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:00,200 Speaker 1: happening right there. Now when you ask the grandmother, but 351 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:02,160 Speaker 1: there's no way I was there. The whole time, there's 352 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:04,600 Speaker 1: no way he could have done it. It makes it 353 00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:07,879 Speaker 1: less believable. And there actually is some research that says 354 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:10,680 Speaker 1: that a significant amount of research is done when people 355 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 1: are either in the room or in neighboring rooms, in 356 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 1: an environment where you almost couldn't believe that it would happen. 357 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:20,360 Speaker 1: The fact that the kids probably felt special for being 358 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 1: in that setting, like I'm in this special class, I 359 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:25,359 Speaker 1: get to be there. Plus he gets you know, for 360 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:28,120 Speaker 1: the individual says, you know, but my family was here, 361 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:31,600 Speaker 1: there's no way maybe that something happened. All those are 362 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:36,280 Speaker 1: very are extraordinary measures of manipulating an environment to make 363 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:39,960 Speaker 1: it less likely for someone to disclose and less likely 364 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:43,440 Speaker 1: for anyone to believe if the child does disclose because 365 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 1: it sounds unbelievable. Um, the reality is, um, it happens. 366 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:51,919 Speaker 1: It happens all the time. It happens in front of 367 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:55,639 Speaker 1: people without them even being aware. We've seen examples of 368 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:59,399 Speaker 1: abuse in an institution such as Antawaki in other places 369 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:03,199 Speaker 1: such as the case of Jerry Sandusky, or instances of 370 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:06,320 Speaker 1: abuse in the Catholic Church. Is it harder to get 371 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:09,440 Speaker 1: something done when it is attached to an institution such 372 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 1: as that you know, there's a I think the saying 373 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:15,800 Speaker 1: is you know, Jesse, it's attributed I believe to Jesse James, like, 374 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 1: you know, why do you rob banks? You know? And 375 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:23,200 Speaker 1: Jesse James said, because that's where the money is, right, 376 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 1: you know, where kids they're in, you know, you serving organizations. 377 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:32,160 Speaker 1: If they're not in your family, they're not in your home, 378 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:34,800 Speaker 1: they're not your neighbor that you had. You the one 379 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 1: way you gain access as kids is by being involved 380 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 1: with youth serving organizations or where the kids are. You know, 381 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:44,040 Speaker 1: So if you want to sexually abuse kids, you know, 382 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:45,879 Speaker 1: it's kind of like Jesse James going to the bank, 383 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:50,359 Speaker 1: you go to where the kids are. Uh So, I 384 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:54,520 Speaker 1: think historically we kind of knew that, but we didn't 385 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:57,800 Speaker 1: internalize it as much because we had this notion of 386 00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 1: these were really good and say things, and many most 387 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 1: of the time they are. But you know, think about 388 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:06,880 Speaker 1: the last decade or longer, you know, with what we've 389 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:08,960 Speaker 1: seen in the Catholic Church, what we you know, and 390 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 1: what we've seen in youth serving organizations of all kinds, 391 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:17,480 Speaker 1: we you know, uh, sporting activities. We we have had 392 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:20,320 Speaker 1: the wool pull back on that and there has really 393 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:25,240 Speaker 1: been a clarion call to hold youth serving organizations accountable 394 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:28,399 Speaker 1: that they need to have certain procedures in place. You know, 395 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:31,320 Speaker 1: we work, we partner with a number of youth serving 396 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:35,000 Speaker 1: organizations to provide assistance in this area because they have 397 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:38,160 Speaker 1: to recognize that there are risks involved and they need 398 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 1: to make sure that they're mitigating those risks to the 399 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:45,480 Speaker 1: very best of their ability while still providing their mission. Now, 400 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:47,679 Speaker 1: if we go back to the seventies, we did we 401 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,159 Speaker 1: weren't paying attention to that, and in many ways you 402 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:54,000 Speaker 1: had the veil of you know, you're doing good work 403 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:57,480 Speaker 1: for kids, you know, as as political cover in a 404 00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:00,520 Speaker 1: sense for your manipulation, like you were seeing. We weren't 405 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 1: even thinking along those terms. So it was you know, 406 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 1: it's very different now than it was. We're all a 407 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:11,560 Speaker 1: bit more suspicious. We're all a bit more skeptical about things, 408 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:14,160 Speaker 1: and we really are asking some of these hard questions 409 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:17,040 Speaker 1: that need to be asked. What steps have been made 410 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 1: present day that would have stopped something like any we 411 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:23,399 Speaker 1: keep happening. Are there still many cases of abuse in 412 00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:27,960 Speaker 1: learning or medical institutions today? You know, there's been a 413 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 1: tremendous amount the you know, sinator disease control helped along 414 00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:36,199 Speaker 1: with the number of professionals wrote some guidelines. Uh. You 415 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:39,440 Speaker 1: serving organizations, you know the Boys and Girls Called of America, 416 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:42,440 Speaker 1: Big Brothers, Big Sisters, you know, boy Scouts, from all 417 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:46,240 Speaker 1: up and down the list. I'm not trying to be exclusive. Effectively, 418 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:50,639 Speaker 1: any meaningful youth serving organization has really amped up the 419 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:55,360 Speaker 1: dialogue UH, and churches related to how we make sure 420 00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:58,439 Speaker 1: that children are protected our environment, talking about the issue, 421 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:03,680 Speaker 1: making it aware. You know, those are really important things 422 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:07,119 Speaker 1: that have been done. Uh, they continue to evolve. And 423 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:10,080 Speaker 1: making sure that individuals are not allowed to be alone 424 00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:13,480 Speaker 1: with youth. Um, that there are any time there's kinds 425 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:16,800 Speaker 1: of issues of special consideration being given, that should always 426 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:19,800 Speaker 1: be a warning sign. We see this in education too. 427 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:22,960 Speaker 1: I mean, think about the number of school personnel who 428 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:26,680 Speaker 1: are engaged in sexual contact with students. So this cuts 429 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:29,560 Speaker 1: across all kinds of wherever our kids are, we need 430 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:33,240 Speaker 1: to make sure that we're talking about this issue. Um. 431 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:35,359 Speaker 1: You know a lot of times sometimes people have asked 432 00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:39,480 Speaker 1: before and in training, especially earlier with churches and in 433 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:42,200 Speaker 1: the wake of the Catholic Church, you know, like how 434 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:45,280 Speaker 1: do we address this issue? And you know, I would say, 435 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:48,479 Speaker 1: if you want to do one thing to make someone 436 00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:52,520 Speaker 1: who is using your environment uncomfortable, talk about the issue. 437 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:55,359 Speaker 1: Talk about it in Sunday school. Talk about it from 438 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:58,560 Speaker 1: the pulpit, you know, talk about the issue. If you 439 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:01,040 Speaker 1: want to make them uncomfortable, talk about it. Because they 440 00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 1: thrive in darkness. They thrive and where this is not 441 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:07,440 Speaker 1: being talked about. And unfortunately, for all the kids who 442 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 1: experienced abuse at anna Waki, they were living in a 443 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:12,760 Speaker 1: time where we were all in the dark, and we 444 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 1: were all not paying attention to things that we needed 445 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:17,439 Speaker 1: to be paying attention to. We've made a lot of 446 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:21,399 Speaker 1: progress over the last forty years, but unfortunately, we have 447 00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:26,040 Speaker 1: a tremendous number of adults in our society who experienced 448 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:29,159 Speaker 1: abuse in their childhood and never had the opportunity to 449 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:32,640 Speaker 1: tell about it. Is even in a friend of my family, 450 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 1: my mother in law's best friend, kind of a second 451 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:39,280 Speaker 1: mother to my wife, was visiting us. At one point 452 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:42,280 Speaker 1: she wanted to take a tour of the center and I, 453 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:44,680 Speaker 1: you know, our the National Children's have a Cey Center, 454 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 1: And I was like, Okay, we'll go down there on 455 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:49,640 Speaker 1: a Saturday and I'll show her around and maybe an hour, 456 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:51,280 Speaker 1: but you know, wol be the right thing to do. 457 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 1: So we get there and we do a tour, and 458 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:56,399 Speaker 1: then we're sitting down and she has questions after question 459 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,639 Speaker 1: after question after question after question, and we end up 460 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:01,560 Speaker 1: being there for two and a half hours. I'm like, okay, 461 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 1: now you're cutting into my Saturday kind of thing. But 462 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:07,960 Speaker 1: she was really interested in volunteering at a child advocacy center. 463 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:11,320 Speaker 1: Come to find out they leave, you're going back to 464 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:15,560 Speaker 1: where they live. And she discloses to my mother in 465 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:18,560 Speaker 1: law and says, you know, I'm sixty eight years old. 466 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:22,399 Speaker 1: She said, I've never told a single person about this, 467 00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:24,919 Speaker 1: but when I was three years old, I was sexually 468 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:30,560 Speaker 1: abused by by babysitter's son, who was a teenager, and 469 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:34,720 Speaker 1: I still think about it today. It impacted how I 470 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:38,520 Speaker 1: raised my daughter, It impacted how I viewed sexuality and sex. 471 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:42,720 Speaker 1: It impacted my marriage, It impacted every aspect of my life. 472 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:45,199 Speaker 1: How I viewed the world was shaped by that. And 473 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:48,159 Speaker 1: I've never told a single person about it until now. 474 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,480 Speaker 1: This has been something I've carried around for sixty five years. 475 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,639 Speaker 1: And unfortunately, we have a tremendous number of Americans in 476 00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:58,240 Speaker 1: our society that are carrying the same burdens of not 477 00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:01,840 Speaker 1: being recognized, not being her, of not being supported. It's 478 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:04,960 Speaker 1: a public health crisis. For individuals over the age of 479 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:07,639 Speaker 1: forty years old, one in four girls and one in 480 00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:12,199 Speaker 1: seven boys have experienced sexual abuse. One in four girls 481 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:14,600 Speaker 1: and one in seven boys for individuals over the age 482 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:18,919 Speaker 1: of forty years old, that is another pandemic in the 483 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:23,920 Speaker 1: secondary impacts of this issue on individual's ability to earn 484 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:28,000 Speaker 1: a reasonable income, to own a house on a car 485 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:32,879 Speaker 1: are overwhelming in the literature, and it also has impacted 486 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 1: our nation's health. Our health care costs are significantly higher 487 00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:40,479 Speaker 1: because of child mail treatment. Nine of all Medicaid costs 488 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:44,720 Speaker 1: are related to child abuse, and when we talk about 489 00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:46,960 Speaker 1: states not being able to pay for medicaid, if we 490 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:50,000 Speaker 1: can address the issue of child sexual abuse and child 491 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:54,120 Speaker 1: abuse and children's exposure to adverse experiences, we can improve 492 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:58,680 Speaker 1: our nation's health and improve our nation's economy. We're making progress, 493 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:01,840 Speaker 1: but this is something that has to be on the radar. 494 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:04,600 Speaker 1: It cannot be a sideline issue. It needs to be 495 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:25,600 Speaker 1: a center of the field issue. There's been a significant 496 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:28,360 Speaker 1: amount of concern over time that if a child was 497 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:31,720 Speaker 1: sexually abused that that means they will become a sexual abuser, 498 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:34,480 Speaker 1: like you're exposed to this and now you have it, 499 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,520 Speaker 1: like it's a disease, like it's going to happen. And 500 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:41,240 Speaker 1: I want to make sure to communicate that a overwhelming 501 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:47,320 Speaker 1: majority of individuals who are sexually abused never sexually abused 502 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:51,520 Speaker 1: a child in their life. It is not something where 503 00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:54,160 Speaker 1: it's you know, a fate to complete that you know 504 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:58,640 Speaker 1: you are going to do this now. In the situation 505 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 1: with Anna Waki and some of this described, these behaviors 506 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:09,440 Speaker 1: were nurtured by people in positions of influence. So individuals 507 00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:12,560 Speaker 1: who were abused, and we see this from time to time, 508 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:18,720 Speaker 1: Individuals who were abused become involved in that and they 509 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:23,560 Speaker 1: have developing some level of enjoyment, and they are they 510 00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 1: are encouraged to engage in this behavior with other individuals. 511 00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:29,440 Speaker 1: I don't want to share a lot of details because 512 00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:33,840 Speaker 1: I don't think it's really helpful, but I have worked 513 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:40,080 Speaker 1: with kids under the age of ten who literally have 514 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:44,680 Speaker 1: talked about how they because of the way they were manipulated. 515 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:49,160 Speaker 1: They talk about missing having sex with one of their parents. 516 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:53,560 Speaker 1: That took work to create a child who viewsed the 517 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:58,720 Speaker 1: world that way. It's okay, it's acceptable, and actually I 518 00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:03,440 Speaker 1: enjoy it. That is that is a very disturbed approach, 519 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:05,640 Speaker 1: and I know that's probably very disturbing for people to hear, 520 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:12,080 Speaker 1: but you know, children can be manipulated and manipulating them 521 00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:15,440 Speaker 1: it's also part of the offender's mentality, Like if other 522 00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:18,560 Speaker 1: people are doing this, it's more socially acceptable. In our 523 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:21,640 Speaker 1: inner circle, it's acceptable for us to do that. I 524 00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:23,720 Speaker 1: serve as a role model for them so they can 525 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:26,960 Speaker 1: engage other kids in this activity. It almost is gonna 526 00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:29,240 Speaker 1: make it harder to believe. But in the group that 527 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:32,280 Speaker 1: I'm hanging out with, the people who I'm associating with, 528 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:35,600 Speaker 1: this is more commonplace and it becomes a norm. It 529 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:37,760 Speaker 1: would be like, if you know, we lived in a 530 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 1: community where you know, a certain group of people eight 531 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:44,320 Speaker 1: tennis shoes, they would carve up tennis shoes and put 532 00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:46,800 Speaker 1: them in twice baked potatoes or whatever. It just becomes 533 00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:50,760 Speaker 1: the norm. Right, That seems very odd, very strange, very disturbing. 534 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:52,960 Speaker 1: But when it becomes something that everybody is doing, it 535 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:56,360 Speaker 1: becomes a little bit more acceptable, and it creates it 536 00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:00,240 Speaker 1: makes it, it creates a very dangerous and insidious environ 537 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:03,800 Speaker 1: it where we normalize things, and that is a you know, 538 00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:07,239 Speaker 1: that's a huge issue around this kind of manipulation of 539 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:10,360 Speaker 1: those The other thing it does is it empowers the offender. 540 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:15,240 Speaker 1: Like if let's say so I, you know, I'm sexually 541 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:18,320 Speaker 1: using this child, and now I'm encouraging this childhood gigs 542 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:20,600 Speaker 1: and sexual contact. I can then go to that child 543 00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:22,400 Speaker 1: and say, if you ever talked about what happened, they're 544 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:24,360 Speaker 1: going to find about about what you've done. You'll be 545 00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:28,520 Speaker 1: in trouble too. Now I've made my victim even more 546 00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:32,840 Speaker 1: vulnerable to me and more able to be manipulated. So 547 00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:39,680 Speaker 1: it's a clever and disgusting strategy to do this because 548 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,239 Speaker 1: it's almost like a drug dealer in a way. You 549 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:46,000 Speaker 1: now create these other people that are selling drugs to others. 550 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:47,960 Speaker 1: And at any point, if you want to have contact 551 00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:50,840 Speaker 1: and you're the kingpin, you could have you know, I 552 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:53,640 Speaker 1: want to have sexual contact with this individual, you could 553 00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:56,720 Speaker 1: make that happen in that scenario because you have these 554 00:32:56,760 --> 00:33:00,120 Speaker 1: other people that are kind of this Ponzi scheme of 555 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:04,760 Speaker 1: sexual abuse. Um, it's very disturbing and I know, probably 556 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:08,200 Speaker 1: for listeners to hear about some of the offender mentality 557 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:11,200 Speaker 1: and this is probably highly disturbing, and I'm you know, 558 00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:13,880 Speaker 1: it's hard to talk about this stuff with just without 559 00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:19,760 Speaker 1: just being real kind of shifting to the climate today. 560 00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:23,520 Speaker 1: You mentioned this a little bit earlier about kind of 561 00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:28,120 Speaker 1: the Satanic panic era and Q and on. How has 562 00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:32,920 Speaker 1: that affected your work and getting people aware of these 563 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:38,520 Speaker 1: very real issues When there is this trend right now 564 00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:47,240 Speaker 1: of sex trafficking and child pedophilia being in large grand 565 00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:52,080 Speaker 1: conspiracy terms, things such as Pizza Gate, as this elitist 566 00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:56,400 Speaker 1: Hollywood cabal taking a drene of chrome and harvesting babies 567 00:33:56,400 --> 00:34:00,000 Speaker 1: and things of that nature, how does that affect um 568 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:01,960 Speaker 1: your work and trying to get the word out in 569 00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:05,080 Speaker 1: the real work done in this issue. Uh. You know, 570 00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:08,480 Speaker 1: I quite honestly would want to say to anybody who's involved, 571 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:12,200 Speaker 1: uh and and really believes in that if you're so committed, 572 00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:14,799 Speaker 1: where have you been all the years we've been here, 573 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:19,000 Speaker 1: I hadn't met you, Um, I would have loved I 574 00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:21,840 Speaker 1: won't have everybody on our side working to help protect kids. 575 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:25,920 Speaker 1: You know, Hey, if you're interested now, great, Let's make 576 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:29,480 Speaker 1: sure anything we're doing is is grounded in reality, it's 577 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:32,120 Speaker 1: based on what we actually know from the research you know, 578 00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:34,319 Speaker 1: the way we interview children, the way we can doctu 579 00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:37,080 Speaker 1: medically exams, the way we provide therapy, it's all based 580 00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:39,920 Speaker 1: on science. Let's let science, you know, drive how we 581 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:42,759 Speaker 1: respond to this issue. Let's make sure that we are 582 00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:45,359 Speaker 1: innovative in our practice. That's what we need to do. 583 00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:50,000 Speaker 1: But I would say, you know, getting accurate information is 584 00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:54,440 Speaker 1: out there is hard because you're pushing back against society 585 00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:56,680 Speaker 1: and kind of norms that are out there, and people 586 00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:59,560 Speaker 1: not wanting to hear about things that are difficult, uh, 587 00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:02,080 Speaker 1: and things that are disturbing. There's a reason why most 588 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:04,399 Speaker 1: people say I could never do that work because they 589 00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:08,320 Speaker 1: recognize we're exposed to toxic content on a daily basis, 590 00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:10,840 Speaker 1: and most people don't want to hear that. Like, my 591 00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:12,879 Speaker 1: life is hard enough as it is. The last thing 592 00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:16,799 Speaker 1: I need is more So, we're always challenged with how 593 00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:20,359 Speaker 1: to try to get accurate, truthful information out there. It's 594 00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:22,920 Speaker 1: an issue right now in our society. You brought up 595 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:26,279 Speaker 1: the issue of sex trafficking. Um, you know, I think 596 00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:29,960 Speaker 1: when you say you know sex trafficking, you know, some 597 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:32,840 Speaker 1: people will automatically develop like in their mind, what is 598 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:35,040 Speaker 1: it you see? What do you think about do you 599 00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:38,520 Speaker 1: think about an individual who is you know, working as 600 00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:42,040 Speaker 1: a trafficker and has kids that you know are being 601 00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:44,640 Speaker 1: forced to engage in sex acts. You know, what is 602 00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:47,440 Speaker 1: it that people think about. We still are at a 603 00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:50,840 Speaker 1: point where we're collecting data. I can tell you this unequivocally, 604 00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:55,480 Speaker 1: child sexual abuse happens at a far greater rate than 605 00:35:55,800 --> 00:36:00,000 Speaker 1: children are traffic in our in our nation. Uh. It's significant, 606 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:02,799 Speaker 1: gettingly more an issue at least on a scale of 607 00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:07,640 Speaker 1: ten to one at a minimum. So I mean that's 608 00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:10,520 Speaker 1: what we know. We're learning more in one case of 609 00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:14,400 Speaker 1: child sex trafficking is terrible. Uh, and we are actively 610 00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:17,080 Speaker 1: involved in the fight against it and training people around 611 00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:21,000 Speaker 1: the issue. But it's you know, Americans like bright, shiny 612 00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:23,200 Speaker 1: new toys, and any time we talk about kind of 613 00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:27,239 Speaker 1: a new thing, people may respond to it. Um. I've 614 00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:30,000 Speaker 1: been doing this work for a long time. I personally 615 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:32,840 Speaker 1: get offended when people say there's this huge cabal that 616 00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:35,960 Speaker 1: we're just completely oblivious to what It says that me, 617 00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:38,520 Speaker 1: my colleagues, all of the people that I work with, 618 00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:41,520 Speaker 1: that we're not smart enough to figure out something that's happening. 619 00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:44,520 Speaker 1: And I would say, where's your evidence? You know, let's 620 00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:47,440 Speaker 1: let's talk about the evidence. We can say anything, but 621 00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:50,719 Speaker 1: what can you show me? Uh? And again, I've been 622 00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:55,600 Speaker 1: here for thirty years, you know, hadn't seen you. We've 623 00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:57,480 Speaker 1: been doing this work for a long time, trying to 624 00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:00,439 Speaker 1: improve our nation's response to protect children and to hold 625 00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:02,920 Speaker 1: those who harm them accountable. I don't care who you are. 626 00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:05,759 Speaker 1: If you're sexually abusing a child, you deserve to be 627 00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:08,680 Speaker 1: held accountable, doesn't matter who you are. And I like 628 00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:11,320 Speaker 1: to work in the area of truth. That's what kids 629 00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:14,120 Speaker 1: who have experienced abuse need. They need truth to come 630 00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:17,440 Speaker 1: out so they can heal no one's benefits. When we 631 00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:22,479 Speaker 1: have conspiracies that are unproven and inaccurate, this is an 632 00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:25,799 Speaker 1: opportunity to move the needle, you know, on on how 633 00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:29,600 Speaker 1: we understand this issue, how we're paying attention to this issue. 634 00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:30,920 Speaker 1: How do we know what to look for if you 635 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:34,320 Speaker 1: don't know what's really happening? Right, how can we protect children? 636 00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:36,319 Speaker 1: And I would say maybe one final thing I would 637 00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:39,680 Speaker 1: say is that the protection of children is not the 638 00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:46,080 Speaker 1: responsibility of children. The protection of children is the responsibility 639 00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:49,480 Speaker 1: of all adults living in a society to make sure 640 00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:52,799 Speaker 1: they're protected. Even the Massai warriors who are known in 641 00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:57,360 Speaker 1: Africa to be some of the most aggressive and successful warriors. 642 00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:01,360 Speaker 1: When they would greet one another, they would the first 643 00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:05,200 Speaker 1: thing they would ask in their their tongue is how 644 00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:08,400 Speaker 1: and how are the children? Because they knew how children 645 00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:11,600 Speaker 1: were being taken care of by a society in their 646 00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:15,200 Speaker 1: own would be an indication of how advanced the society is. 647 00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:19,879 Speaker 1: It's high time that we prioritize the protection of our children. Uh. 648 00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:22,399 Speaker 1: And we were doing all we can to prevent them 649 00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:26,320 Speaker 1: from being experiencing any abuse. And if they do experience abuse, 650 00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:28,840 Speaker 1: that they have full access to the resources that we 651 00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:31,319 Speaker 1: have now have to help them heal from that so 652 00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:35,040 Speaker 1: they can live happy, full productive lives and they don't 653 00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:38,880 Speaker 1: disclose at age sixty eight about something that happened sixty 654 00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:42,040 Speaker 1: five years ago that's impact of their entire life. We 655 00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:45,839 Speaker 1: need to help them now they can be helped. Um 656 00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:48,920 Speaker 1: Child sexual abuse or exposure to other trauma is not 657 00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:52,640 Speaker 1: a death sentence. It doesn't ruin a child forever. This 658 00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:54,960 Speaker 1: is something that we have tools to address. We can 659 00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:59,200 Speaker 1: address it. UH. And individuals, lots and lots of individuals 660 00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:03,400 Speaker 1: are various tessibul in life after having experienced abuse. So 661 00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:05,960 Speaker 1: We shouldn't be fatalistic about it, but we should be 662 00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:08,960 Speaker 1: aggressive in our work to protect kids and to help 663 00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:10,759 Speaker 1: those who have been harmed and to hold those who 664 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:14,600 Speaker 1: are harming them accountable. That is what in just Society 665 00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:28,080 Speaker 1: does next time on camp help in a waking. Once 666 00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:32,680 Speaker 1: maybe twice a year, people from the state would come 667 00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:36,360 Speaker 1: out to do like an inspection or something. They picked 668 00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:39,600 Speaker 1: like three of us girls to be the one to 669 00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:43,719 Speaker 1: answer any questions, and so they took the rest of 670 00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:47,680 Speaker 1: the group like way way out into the wood. They 671 00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:50,400 Speaker 1: were leasing them, just like anybody else would be leasing 672 00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:56,160 Speaker 1: real estate from another company, any other business. So so 673 00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:03,040 Speaker 1: the non profit paying the profit corporation the nonprofit and 674 00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:06,719 Speaker 1: awaky E was baying and Awakey Estates rent with the 675 00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:11,160 Speaker 1: ownership of that was the three daughters. There was a chimney. 676 00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:16,080 Speaker 1: He climbed to the top of that and uh dove off. 677 00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:20,680 Speaker 1: Earl was very touched anytime a kid died and he 678 00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:24,760 Speaker 1: would get involved and he would become obsessive, compulsive trying 679 00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:26,959 Speaker 1: to deal with it. And that was something he never 680 00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:29,920 Speaker 1: could figure out if he was doing it. Since nineteen 681 00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:34,760 Speaker 1: somebody notices in four and the disapproval sticks in their mind. 682 00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:38,320 Speaker 1: It only took a year and a half from there 683 00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:47,160 Speaker 1: for it to fall apart. Camp hell an Awaki was 684 00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:50,800 Speaker 1: created and hosted by Josh Than with producer Miranda Hawkins 685 00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:55,120 Speaker 1: and executive producers Alex Williams and Matt Frederick. The soundtrack 686 00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:58,520 Speaker 1: was written and performed by Josh Thane and Adrian Barry. 687 00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:02,600 Speaker 1: Archival footage for aided by ws B and CBS News. 688 00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:06,719 Speaker 1: Find us on Instagram at camp hell pod. That's c 689 00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:10,040 Speaker 1: A M p h E L L p O D. 690 00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:13,799 Speaker 1: Educate yourself about the issue of child abuse and things 691 00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:16,600 Speaker 1: that you should look for at the Darkness to Light website. 692 00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:20,160 Speaker 1: D too well dot org. That's d the number two 693 00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:25,040 Speaker 1: l dot org. Camp hell Anawaki is a production of 694 00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:28,040 Speaker 1: I heart Radio. For more podcasts from my heart Radio, 695 00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:31,600 Speaker 1: visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 696 00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:32,960 Speaker 1: you listen to podcasts.