WEBVTT - Civil War is Solvable (Again) 0:00:15.076 --> 0:00:24.476 Pushkin. This is solvable. I'm Anne Applebaum. The answer is 0:00:24.516 --> 0:00:29.996 not to turn inward, to retreat into competing factions, distrusting 0:00:30.036 --> 0:00:33.596 those who don't look like you, or worshiped the way 0:00:33.636 --> 0:00:36.156 you do, or don't get their news from the same 0:00:36.236 --> 0:00:42.076 source as you do. We must end this uncivil war. Thankfully, 0:00:42.116 --> 0:00:45.756 President Biden was using poetic language in his inauguration speech 0:00:45.876 --> 0:00:49.596 on November twentieth, twenty one. The US is not in 0:00:49.636 --> 0:00:53.316 a state of civil war, but certainly with the insurrection 0:00:53.356 --> 0:00:57.756 at the US capital, uncivil actions by US citizens as 0:00:57.796 --> 0:01:01.476 well as our deep divisions were on full display. What 0:01:01.636 --> 0:01:05.516 is it that they want? What are their concerns, What 0:01:05.716 --> 0:01:09.956 are their ideals their objectives. If you don't have an 0:01:09.996 --> 0:01:13.116 idea of what they want, it's very difficult to negotiate. 0:01:13.596 --> 0:01:17.236 Negotiation is a way to mitigate tension. Another is to 0:01:17.236 --> 0:01:20.756 elevate truth and distinguish it from fiction. But just how 0:01:20.836 --> 0:01:23.476 best to pursue any of these tactics can be harder 0:01:23.516 --> 0:01:27.036 to discern. Here it's solvable. We're going to explore these 0:01:27.116 --> 0:01:29.716 questions and others as part of a series examining the 0:01:29.756 --> 0:01:34.876 strength of democracy and how to solve polarization in the US. 0:01:34.996 --> 0:01:37.876 President Biden has inherited a nation that is not just 0:01:37.956 --> 0:01:41.156 politically polarized, but it's also reeling from a long history 0:01:41.156 --> 0:01:44.836 of racial trauma. We know that anger and pain don't 0:01:44.876 --> 0:01:48.236 disappear with the installation of a new president. Every peace 0:01:48.276 --> 0:01:53.036 process boils down to where you draw the line between 0:01:53.156 --> 0:01:57.476 peace and justice. No matter where you draw the line, 0:01:58.476 --> 0:02:02.596 there will always be some people from one side seeking 0:02:02.676 --> 0:02:06.156 more justice or from the other side seeking more peace. 0:02:06.756 --> 0:02:10.596 Je Manuel Santos was awarded the Nobel Prize in twenty sixteen. 0:02:10.916 --> 0:02:14.236 He is the former president of Columbia. He is credited 0:02:14.236 --> 0:02:17.796 with reuniting his country by ending its deeply divisive civil war, 0:02:18.276 --> 0:02:22.356 a conflict that lasted more than fifty years. Columbia makes 0:02:22.396 --> 0:02:26.316 an interesting example for Americans, not because we are involved 0:02:26.356 --> 0:02:29.396 in a civil war, but because the habits of mind 0:02:29.516 --> 0:02:33.436 and the tactics that the Colombians have used to reintegrate 0:02:33.476 --> 0:02:37.516 their insurgency might help us think about how we can 0:02:37.556 --> 0:02:41.316 bring Americans back together into a single political system too. 0:02:41.876 --> 0:02:48.156 My soluble is to find the ways to end civil 0:02:48.236 --> 0:02:53.836 armed conflicts and to find reconciliation. I first spoke with 0:02:53.916 --> 0:02:58.476 one Manuel Santos in twenty nineteen. Here's our conversation Juan 0:02:58.556 --> 0:03:02.196 Manuel Santos. When you became president of Columbia, you were 0:03:02.236 --> 0:03:07.556 faced with one of the longest running, most insoluble civil 0:03:07.556 --> 0:03:12.036 wars in the world. When you begin thinking about how 0:03:12.036 --> 0:03:14.796 to solve a problem like that, it seems intractable, it 0:03:14.916 --> 0:03:17.676 can't end. How do you break the problem down? What 0:03:17.756 --> 0:03:20.796 do you think of first? What was your first instinct? 0:03:22.156 --> 0:03:26.076 My first instinct was to try to get a complete 0:03:26.116 --> 0:03:31.356 picture of the problem and try to generate the necessary 0:03:31.396 --> 0:03:35.476 conditions to solve it. Many times this is not done, 0:03:35.756 --> 0:03:41.316 and when you don't have the necessary conditions at your disposal, 0:03:41.956 --> 0:03:45.716 it is impossible to solve a conflict of the nature. 0:03:46.476 --> 0:03:49.036 What do you mean by conditions? What exactly what you're 0:03:49.036 --> 0:03:54.956 talking about. I studied why my predecessors failed, because all 0:03:54.996 --> 0:03:59.356 of them tried to negotiate peace. And I studied more 0:03:59.356 --> 0:04:03.236 than seventeen conflicts around the world. Some of them were 0:04:03.276 --> 0:04:09.436 successful in being ended, some of them not. But I 0:04:09.476 --> 0:04:14.636 studied each and every one of these conflicts and extracted 0:04:14.676 --> 0:04:18.516 what was applicable to our conflict and what to do 0:04:18.636 --> 0:04:21.636 and what not to do. And when I had those 0:04:21.676 --> 0:04:27.756 conditions ready, I then started negotiations. Conditions like you have 0:04:28.156 --> 0:04:31.636 to have the military balance of power in the favor 0:04:31.676 --> 0:04:36.276 of the state. As long as the insurgency the grillers 0:04:36.636 --> 0:04:41.316 think they can win by using violence, it's very difficult 0:04:41.796 --> 0:04:47.876 to negotiate peace. You need the commanders of the insurgency 0:04:48.556 --> 0:04:52.156 to personally consider that for them on a personal level, 0:04:52.756 --> 0:04:56.796 it's better to negotiate a peace agreement than to continue 0:04:56.796 --> 0:05:00.556 the war. And something that is very very necessary in 0:05:00.596 --> 0:05:04.356 today's world. Any asymmetric war in any part of the 0:05:04.396 --> 0:05:10.116 world needs the support of the region and if necessary, 0:05:10.156 --> 0:05:14.076 of the international community to reach an agreement. So these 0:05:14.116 --> 0:05:21.516 conditions were identified and then created. Because conditions don't appear 0:05:21.836 --> 0:05:24.956 just out of the blue. You have to create those conditions, 0:05:25.036 --> 0:05:27.476 and we created those conditions in the case of Colombia. 0:05:27.596 --> 0:05:30.756 And what did you do first? Well, my first effort 0:05:31.116 --> 0:05:34.196 was to strengthen our military and I had the opportunity 0:05:34.436 --> 0:05:37.276 of doing that because I was Minister of Defense before 0:05:37.396 --> 0:05:43.596 being president. And also to use the carrot and the 0:05:43.676 --> 0:05:48.516 stick with the military commanders, telling them that they personally 0:05:48.996 --> 0:05:52.836 would be better off if they negotiate peace. And something 0:05:52.876 --> 0:05:55.916 that I did which was quite controversial at the moment, 0:05:56.796 --> 0:06:01.116 was making peace with our neighbors in order to seek 0:06:01.316 --> 0:06:05.676 their support. Charis in Venezuela, who's not popular in Colombia, 0:06:06.076 --> 0:06:09.996 was very unpopular, and we didn't have diplomatics or even 0:06:10.036 --> 0:06:13.196 trade relations with aswell at that time, and I made 0:06:13.276 --> 0:06:17.516 peace with him. Also with President Correa and Ecuador, the 0:06:17.556 --> 0:06:21.636 south of Colombia. We did not have diplomatic or even 0:06:21.676 --> 0:06:26.436 trade relations with either, and we needed them to support 0:06:26.436 --> 0:06:30.236 the peace process, otherwise the peace process would not be successful. 0:06:30.476 --> 0:06:32.916 So I made peace with both of them, and with 0:06:32.996 --> 0:06:36.116 other neighbors which we did not have it at that time, 0:06:36.516 --> 0:06:40.196 in good relationships Brazil and Peru and the rest of 0:06:40.236 --> 0:06:43.076 that America. I know that one of the other things 0:06:43.116 --> 0:06:45.876 you did is that you sought to give the rebel 0:06:45.996 --> 0:06:50.716 leaders some incentive to join the political process in Colombia, 0:06:50.796 --> 0:06:53.876 in other words, to bring somehow bring them in, allow 0:06:53.956 --> 0:06:56.636 them to have a political party, allow them to be elected. 0:06:57.076 --> 0:06:59.876 And this, of course was also controversial because many people 0:07:00.076 --> 0:07:02.356 feel that these are criminals and they should be in jail. 0:07:02.916 --> 0:07:05.236 Can you explain why you thought that was necessary and 0:07:05.236 --> 0:07:09.796 whether you think it worked well. Every peace process boils 0:07:09.836 --> 0:07:14.396 down to where you draw the line between peace and justice. 0:07:15.276 --> 0:07:19.516 No matter where you draw the line, there will always 0:07:19.516 --> 0:07:24.196 be some people from one side seeking more justice or 0:07:24.316 --> 0:07:27.716 from the other side seeking more peace. So to make 0:07:27.956 --> 0:07:31.956 peace is not very popular, and this is an experience 0:07:31.956 --> 0:07:37.716 that all peacemakers have had during the recent history. Also, 0:07:37.996 --> 0:07:41.916 in a process of this sort, what are the guerrillas 0:07:42.356 --> 0:07:46.076 fighting for. They want to change the country, they want 0:07:46.316 --> 0:07:50.716 political power, and you have to give them a way out, 0:07:50.796 --> 0:07:53.756 a dignified way out, if you want them to lay 0:07:53.796 --> 0:07:56.636 down their arms, and the way to do that is 0:07:56.636 --> 0:08:02.076 to offer them space in our democracy. And almost every 0:08:02.516 --> 0:08:07.316 peace process around the world has to give the counterpart 0:08:08.156 --> 0:08:12.596 some guarantees that they can continue their struggle without violence 0:08:13.156 --> 0:08:16.316 through democratic means. And this is an essential part of 0:08:16.356 --> 0:08:18.556 any agreement. Yes, this is what was done in Northern 0:08:18.556 --> 0:08:21.516 Ireland as well. Absolutely, and every other conflict in the 0:08:21.556 --> 0:08:26.756 world has been solved by giving the counterparts some kind 0:08:26.796 --> 0:08:30.796 of guarantees in their democratic life. Otherwise they will never 0:08:30.956 --> 0:08:35.596 give up their arms unless you defeat them militarily and 0:08:35.756 --> 0:08:39.276 exterminate them, which is something impossible. In the case of Columbia, 0:08:39.276 --> 0:08:44.876 it was impossible. Then you have to negotiate, and negotiations 0:08:45.036 --> 0:08:48.956 mean making transactions. In the case of Colombia, for example, 0:08:49.036 --> 0:08:53.116 I gave them ten places in our Congress, five in 0:08:53.196 --> 0:08:56.716 the Senate, five in the House of Representatives, to guarantee 0:08:56.716 --> 0:09:02.276 them for three periods representation in Congress. And they were 0:09:02.276 --> 0:09:05.156 satisfied with that, and I think that was an essential 0:09:05.236 --> 0:09:08.516 part of the agreement. When you do that, though, don't 0:09:08.556 --> 0:09:11.636 you really and I know this was you know this 0:09:11.676 --> 0:09:15.716 did happen in Colombia, don't you risk losing public support? 0:09:16.036 --> 0:09:18.836 The public is angry at these people. They're terrorists. They've 0:09:18.876 --> 0:09:22.276 caused all this damage, They've killed people, they forced people 0:09:22.316 --> 0:09:25.356 to leave the country. They've been very destructive. So how 0:09:25.356 --> 0:09:27.596 do you bring the public along and convince them that 0:09:27.636 --> 0:09:30.676 this is trade off between peace and justice is worth it. 0:09:30.956 --> 0:09:34.356 When I became president, I was the most popular politician 0:09:34.356 --> 0:09:38.236 in Colombia. I had more than eighty five percent favorability. 0:09:38.876 --> 0:09:42.916 As soon as I talked about negotiating peace, I was warned, 0:09:43.036 --> 0:09:46.276 this will cost you your political capital. People will not 0:09:46.476 --> 0:09:51.556 understand that you are very effective. Hawk was elected because 0:09:51.556 --> 0:09:54.796 you were successful making war. You now sit down with 0:09:54.836 --> 0:09:58.476 the terrorists to make peace. But it's the only way 0:09:58.756 --> 0:10:03.276 to finish the war through a negotiation, And so you 0:10:03.356 --> 0:10:08.236 have to be able to do what is correct, even 0:10:08.236 --> 0:10:11.476 though it's I'm popular. You have to be able to 0:10:11.836 --> 0:10:16.236 sacrifice your political capital if you want to achieve your objectives. 0:10:16.276 --> 0:10:18.596 And I was warned that was going to happen, and 0:10:18.636 --> 0:10:25.876 it happened. My favoriteity went down dramatically. But I have 0:10:26.116 --> 0:10:30.036 the great satisfaction of ending the war with the FARC 0:10:30.276 --> 0:10:34.876 after fifty years, and that, of course, is made it 0:10:34.956 --> 0:10:38.756 worthwhile in every respect. I was in Columbia last year 0:10:38.956 --> 0:10:42.276 and was traveling with a friend who was doing a project. 0:10:42.396 --> 0:10:45.316 We met lots of young people who were entrepreneurs and 0:10:45.356 --> 0:10:48.476 who were building new things in Columbia, and I did 0:10:48.556 --> 0:10:50.596 have a feeling that this is a country where there 0:10:50.636 --> 0:10:53.836 was a lot of optimism. People kept beginning sentences by saying, 0:10:53.876 --> 0:10:55.916 now that we have peace, now that the war is over, 0:10:56.556 --> 0:10:58.396 now we can do things that we couldn't do before. 0:10:59.116 --> 0:11:03.436 But at the same time, they weren't at all enthusiastic 0:11:03.596 --> 0:11:07.676 about the deal, about the rebels entering the political process. 0:11:08.116 --> 0:11:10.876 It was a very strange contrast, you know, You is 0:11:11.236 --> 0:11:13.396 if they were half convinced that this was a good thing, 0:11:13.396 --> 0:11:15.476 and they saw why it was beneficial, but they didn't 0:11:15.516 --> 0:11:19.596 feel optimistic about the process itself. This happens in every 0:11:19.596 --> 0:11:24.356 peace process. The people like peace, but they don't like 0:11:24.476 --> 0:11:27.796 to pay the price for peace. The price in this 0:11:27.836 --> 0:11:32.236 case was to see the guerrillas terrorists who had committed 0:11:32.556 --> 0:11:37.276 tremendous atrocities war crimes in congress. A lot of people, 0:11:37.436 --> 0:11:39.556 of course, don't like it. I don't like it, but 0:11:39.676 --> 0:11:42.916 it's the necessary price you have to pay in order 0:11:42.956 --> 0:11:47.316 to have peace. I prefer to have them in congress 0:11:47.356 --> 0:11:51.036 shouting and making speeches, then to have them in the 0:11:51.116 --> 0:11:54.636 jungles can napping and putting bonds. How do you bring 0:11:54.756 --> 0:11:57.916 society around? What is the Do you have advice for 0:11:57.956 --> 0:12:01.316 your successors? How do you How do you convince people 0:12:01.316 --> 0:12:02.756 that this is a good way to end the conflict, 0:12:02.756 --> 0:12:05.556 because I know some people are not convinced. One of 0:12:05.556 --> 0:12:10.596 the most difficult problems that you run in a process 0:12:10.636 --> 0:12:14.076 of this sort is to tell the people that they 0:12:14.156 --> 0:12:18.036 have to learn how to forgive, how to reconciliate. And 0:12:18.076 --> 0:12:21.756 this is very hard. To tell a mother whose daughter 0:12:22.116 --> 0:12:27.356 or son had been killed raped to forgive the perpetrators. 0:12:27.396 --> 0:12:32.076 This is very, very difficult. But I learned from the 0:12:32.196 --> 0:12:37.156 victims that the victims, and this is a very strange paradox, 0:12:37.236 --> 0:12:40.596 were the ones who at the end were more enthusiastic 0:12:40.636 --> 0:12:43.636 about ending the war because they did not want other 0:12:43.676 --> 0:12:46.516 people to suffer what they suffered. For me, that was 0:12:46.556 --> 0:12:51.236 a lesson in life. I never expected that. On the contrary, 0:12:51.276 --> 0:12:55.516 people who had never experienced war or was not affected 0:12:55.516 --> 0:12:59.116 by war were the ones who were more critical of 0:12:59.156 --> 0:13:03.116 the peace process. But this is something which is normally 0:13:03.116 --> 0:13:07.916 in many other processes. I studied them. For example, in 0:13:07.956 --> 0:13:12.156 the case of Israel and Palestine, Prime Minister Rabine, who 0:13:12.236 --> 0:13:15.676 paid with his life the piece processes he did with 0:13:15.716 --> 0:13:19.436 the Palestinians, experienced that from the Israeli people who did 0:13:19.476 --> 0:13:24.196 not want the Palestinians to have a say in Israeli politics. 0:13:24.596 --> 0:13:29.276 And this is a common denominator of almost every piece process. 0:13:29.436 --> 0:13:33.476 Mandela who was very much criticized by his own people 0:13:34.236 --> 0:13:38.156 for being too lenient, but as he said, if you 0:13:38.196 --> 0:13:42.516 want peace, you need to make transactions. Did you meet 0:13:42.556 --> 0:13:47.116 with victims? Yes, I had a marvelous experience. A professor 0:13:47.156 --> 0:13:50.676 from Harvard went and visited me at the beginning of 0:13:50.716 --> 0:13:53.836 my government and said, you are embarking in a very 0:13:53.956 --> 0:13:59.036 very difficult trip. I advise you when you're sad, when 0:13:59.076 --> 0:14:01.796 you're about to throw in the towel to talk to 0:14:01.796 --> 0:14:05.116 the victims, tell you their dramas, what they have gone through. 0:14:05.716 --> 0:14:08.596 That will re energize you. And that's what I did. 0:14:09.236 --> 0:14:13.596 I had as a discipline to talk to victims every 0:14:13.636 --> 0:14:17.396 week or every two weeks, to different victims, and that 0:14:17.556 --> 0:14:21.756 served through the process with six years as a tremendous 0:14:22.036 --> 0:14:26.356 re energizer. Every time I talked to a victim, I 0:14:26.476 --> 0:14:30.956 came out saying I have to continue, I have to persevere. 0:14:31.556 --> 0:14:34.836 And they, the victims, were the first ones to tell me, President, 0:14:35.396 --> 0:14:40.236 don't throw into town, continue persevere. What was your experience 0:14:40.356 --> 0:14:43.636 like of speaking to the rebels whom you'd fought against 0:14:43.676 --> 0:14:48.196 for many years? You need to put yourself in their shoes. 0:14:48.716 --> 0:14:53.116 Empathy is very important in any negotiation. What is it 0:14:53.196 --> 0:14:57.516 that they want, What are their concerns, what are their 0:14:57.556 --> 0:15:02.076 ideals their objectives. If you don't have an idea of 0:15:02.116 --> 0:15:06.036 what they want, it's very difficult to negotiate. So I 0:15:06.116 --> 0:15:09.796 came into the negotiation with tremendous ap hancian. I was 0:15:10.316 --> 0:15:15.196 their worst enemy, but I made it as one of 0:15:15.276 --> 0:15:19.476 my objectives to build trust that they started trusting me 0:15:20.116 --> 0:15:23.956 and I started trusting them. Of course, I put many 0:15:24.396 --> 0:15:29.396 sort of measures throughout the process to confirm that they 0:15:29.396 --> 0:15:32.836 were negotiating good faith, and I think they did the 0:15:32.876 --> 0:15:35.436 same with me, and at the end the trust was 0:15:35.476 --> 0:15:37.996 there that I was negotiating good faith and that they 0:15:37.996 --> 0:15:42.396 were negotiating good faith, and that was essential. From your experience, 0:15:42.756 --> 0:15:45.556 do you think you can generalize you learned from other 0:15:45.756 --> 0:15:49.996 conflicts which you studied. Are there lessons that you would 0:15:50.036 --> 0:15:51.876 like to pass on to others when you look around 0:15:51.876 --> 0:15:54.676 the world, when you look at you at Israel, Palestine, 0:15:54.836 --> 0:15:58.636 or at some of the other other civil wars that continue, Yes, 0:15:58.676 --> 0:16:04.276 there are many lessons. First, that every conflict can have 0:16:04.396 --> 0:16:08.716 a solution. Five years ago, six years ago, nobody in 0:16:08.756 --> 0:16:12.716 colum We thought that a peace agreement with the fart 0:16:12.876 --> 0:16:17.796 was possible, and people say that we made possible the impossible. 0:16:18.196 --> 0:16:22.196 And that is a lesson for any conflict if you 0:16:22.236 --> 0:16:27.076 find the correct conditions and you find the correct moment, 0:16:27.116 --> 0:16:31.276 because there are moments in a process which are essential 0:16:31.316 --> 0:16:36.236 to have a successful negotiations. I think every conflict in 0:16:36.276 --> 0:16:40.196 the world can be solved. Any other specific lessons I mean, 0:16:40.356 --> 0:16:43.516 is it just is it just being optimistic or the 0:16:44.196 --> 0:16:48.636 specific of any conflict, you need to know what the 0:16:48.716 --> 0:16:55.276 counterpart really wants. You need to be able to convince 0:16:55.556 --> 0:17:00.836 the international in today's world, the international community, of a 0:17:00.916 --> 0:17:04.916 solution to this conflict. You need to know where you 0:17:05.236 --> 0:17:10.516 draw your red lines, but where you can give to 0:17:10.556 --> 0:17:14.876 the counterpart what is necessary to obtain peace. For example, 0:17:14.956 --> 0:17:17.556 in the case of Colombia, and in the case of 0:17:17.876 --> 0:17:22.116 today's conflicts, there's no way you can have a solution 0:17:22.756 --> 0:17:27.996 with total impunity because all countries are are subject to 0:17:28.116 --> 0:17:31.676 the Rome Treaty, which is a treaty that was negotiated 0:17:32.196 --> 0:17:38.556 by the international community precisely to allow peaceful solutions of 0:17:38.716 --> 0:17:43.916 armed conflicts. In that Rome Statute, the International Criminal Court 0:17:44.556 --> 0:17:51.236 was born, was created, and the transitional justice was in 0:17:51.276 --> 0:17:56.676 a way invented, and the negotiation in the case of 0:17:56.716 --> 0:18:01.676 Colombia and in any case, was go and negotiate as 0:18:01.796 --> 0:18:07.396 much justice as you can without sacrificing peace. And this 0:18:07.476 --> 0:18:12.156 is the nutshell of any today. You cannot have total 0:18:12.196 --> 0:18:17.676 amnesty for war criminals or people who have committed terrorist 0:18:17.676 --> 0:18:23.076 acts that are considered crimes against humanity, But how to 0:18:23.516 --> 0:18:27.316 punish them, how to judge them, is an essential part 0:18:27.476 --> 0:18:30.876 of any conflict today. In the case of Colombia, it's 0:18:30.916 --> 0:18:33.876 the first time that the two parts sat down and 0:18:33.956 --> 0:18:39.156 negotiated a special tribunal to apply transitional justice, and this 0:18:39.316 --> 0:18:45.436 is being showed as an example for other conflicts from 0:18:45.516 --> 0:18:49.076 No One. Lots of people say, whenever you approach a 0:18:49.116 --> 0:18:51.356 country in the throes of a civil war or a 0:18:51.436 --> 0:18:55.076 difficult conflict, I'm thinking of Libya, I'm thinking of several 0:18:55.076 --> 0:18:58.156 other particularly difficult places. People from those places will say, Oh, 0:18:58.236 --> 0:19:02.076 our country is so specific. Our conflict is to do 0:19:02.156 --> 0:19:04.916 with our history. You know, there aren't any lessons we 0:19:04.956 --> 0:19:07.836 can learn from the outside. Sounds like you don't agree 0:19:07.876 --> 0:19:12.476 with that. No, because we're all human beings, we all 0:19:12.516 --> 0:19:17.316 have concerns, we all want to live in peace, and 0:19:18.076 --> 0:19:23.036 you get any conflict via a religious conflict, ethnic conflict. 0:19:23.196 --> 0:19:27.916 These conflicts can be solved when there's goodwill from both 0:19:27.996 --> 0:19:32.996 parts and a conviction that peace is better than the war. 0:19:33.916 --> 0:19:36.276 There are a lot of countries that have now have 0:19:36.516 --> 0:19:40.916 very deep divisions and deep polarization, which doesn't necessarily lead 0:19:40.956 --> 0:19:44.756 to civil war violence. The United States right now is 0:19:45.276 --> 0:19:49.076 very bitterly divided and polarized. Do you have advice for 0:19:49.116 --> 0:19:52.476 Americans about how they can think about overcoming these deep 0:19:52.596 --> 0:19:56.476 civic divides? Well, this is a problem that there is 0:19:56.836 --> 0:20:01.876 president Almost everywhere in the world, there's deep polarization. That's 0:20:01.876 --> 0:20:06.556 when emotions take over and arguments are left to one side. 0:20:07.076 --> 0:20:13.956 We must try to recuperate the importance of the arguments 0:20:14.076 --> 0:20:20.076 of dialogue and not simply react with your emotions. This 0:20:20.196 --> 0:20:24.996 is much easily said than done, but it is again 0:20:24.996 --> 0:20:28.756 a necessary condition to try to diminish the polarization that 0:20:28.796 --> 0:20:33.396 we're seeing in the US, in Colombia, in Europe, for example, 0:20:33.436 --> 0:20:37.276 what is happening in Europe due to the problem with migration. 0:20:38.076 --> 0:20:41.116 When you analyze the problem migration in Europe, this is 0:20:41.716 --> 0:20:46.716 a very very small problem to create such political reaction, 0:20:47.436 --> 0:20:51.196 and you have to be able to explain to the 0:20:51.236 --> 0:20:54.036 public opinion that the problem is not as big as 0:20:54.076 --> 0:20:58.196 many people are trying to present it. The problem is minimal. 0:20:58.916 --> 0:21:02.076 I will give you a statistic. In Colombia, we have 0:21:02.556 --> 0:21:07.436 today many more Venezuelan refugees than the whole amount of 0:21:07.436 --> 0:21:10.436 refugees that have gone into Europe. We had been able 0:21:10.476 --> 0:21:13.116 to cope with that. How is it possible that in 0:21:13.196 --> 0:21:17.196 Europe governments are falling because of that? It's simply an 0:21:17.196 --> 0:21:21.116 example to show you that many of the problems that 0:21:21.236 --> 0:21:25.476 have caused this polarization are not that big, and the 0:21:26.316 --> 0:21:30.196 big challenges to try to explain why this is so 0:21:30.876 --> 0:21:36.756 and try to reduce the polarization. Are there examples of 0:21:37.156 --> 0:21:41.556 ordinary Colombians or groups of Colombians who contributed to the 0:21:41.636 --> 0:21:45.716 peace process by their actions? Are there examples? You can give, 0:21:45.876 --> 0:21:51.956 oh many many examples. I will tell you one specific example. 0:21:52.596 --> 0:22:00.076 Her name is Pastora Mida. Her son was tortured and 0:22:00.116 --> 0:22:05.156 then killed. Two weeks later, somebody went into her house. 0:22:06.236 --> 0:22:11.916 He was wounded, and she took care of him. And 0:22:12.476 --> 0:22:17.476 when he recovered, he saw a photograph of her with 0:22:17.516 --> 0:22:20.876 her son, and he said, I am sorry to tell 0:22:20.916 --> 0:22:23.116 you I was the one who killed him, and I 0:22:23.236 --> 0:22:28.236 was the one who tortured him. And she reacted in 0:22:28.236 --> 0:22:33.196 a most spectacular way, positive way, saying, thank you for 0:22:33.276 --> 0:22:37.676 telling me, because I will forgive you and this will 0:22:37.716 --> 0:22:41.596 liberate me from my hate. That story for me was 0:22:41.756 --> 0:22:47.836 so powerful, liberate me from my hate. This is what 0:22:47.916 --> 0:22:51.756 the world needs to be liberated from hate. And this 0:22:51.796 --> 0:22:55.596 specific example I can mention a hundred in the war 0:22:55.676 --> 0:22:59.916 in Colombia, people who really are the heroes of this 0:23:00.316 --> 0:23:04.396 peace process. That's why when I received the Peace Prize 0:23:04.396 --> 0:23:07.276 and Nobel Laureate. I said this is not for me, 0:23:07.436 --> 0:23:14.116 It's for the victims. That was the former President of Columbia, 0:23:14.356 --> 0:23:17.876 Juan Manuel Santos. To learn more about the Colombian peace 0:23:17.916 --> 0:23:21.796 process and truth and reconciliation, please check out our show notes. 0:23:22.556 --> 0:23:26.396 Solvable is produced by Joscelyn Frank, Research and booking by 0:23:26.436 --> 0:23:31.316 Lisa Dunn. Our managing producer is Katherine Gerardo and our 0:23:31.396 --> 0:23:35.876 executive producer is mil LaBelle. Solvable is a production of 0:23:35.876 --> 0:23:39.916 Pushkin Industries. You can find additional Pushkin podcasts on the 0:23:39.996 --> 0:23:43.996 iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your 0:23:44.036 --> 0:23:57.756 favorite shows. I'm Ann Applebaum.