1
00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:06,280
Speaker 1: Previously on Death and Deceit in Alliance, which was the.

2
00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:12,680
Speaker 2: First time to get it in the name of Joe Wills hair.

3
00:00:12,320 --> 00:00:17,560
Speaker 3: For she was there for no, she was sitting on

4
00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:19,639
Speaker 3: the couch to begin with, and she jumps.

5
00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:21,439
Speaker 4: Out and ons over in the slang glass door.

6
00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:26,439
Speaker 1: Yes, two blocks away from the house, to call that

7
00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:35,720
Speaker 1: detectives did find a print on the handle, nosh.

8
00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:36,040
Speaker 5: I did not do this.

9
00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:39,640
Speaker 6: And although you thought that the evidence proved that, I

10
00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:41,559
Speaker 6: know in my heart and saw, I did not do this.

11
00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:43,440
Speaker 4: And I wouldn't wish this on anyone.

12
00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:53,400
Speaker 1: This is Death and Deceit and Alliance a real time

13
00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:59,760
Speaker 1: investigation into whether David Thorne killed Yvonne Lane. I'm Maggie Freeling.

14
00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:11,200
Speaker 1: David Thorne has now been incarcerated for the murder of

15
00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:15,520
Speaker 1: Yvonne Lane for nearly a third of his life after

16
00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:18,240
Speaker 1: being convicted of the nineteen ninety nine murder of his

17
00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:22,200
Speaker 1: ex girlfriend Yvonne Lane. He's now forty eight years old.

18
00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:27,520
Speaker 7: You, I mean he's even today.

19
00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:29,319
Speaker 1: Do you sometimes feel like this isn't real?

20
00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:32,320
Speaker 4: Yeah?

21
00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:36,280
Speaker 8: Because this is a life withinside of a life, because

22
00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:39,240
Speaker 8: this is only existing, it's not really living.

23
00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:42,319
Speaker 1: He figures his best chance to get out of prison

24
00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:46,360
Speaker 1: is to help figure out who really killed Yvonne, which

25
00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:49,920
Speaker 1: is tough to do behind bars. But he does have

26
00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:54,400
Speaker 1: allies on the outside who support him in different ways. Sue,

27
00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:58,120
Speaker 1: for example, we met her in the previous episode.

28
00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:03,440
Speaker 7: Had a brother just watch that. I have David's dog

29
00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:05,160
Speaker 7: and I had to lock in in the cage or you'd.

30
00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:05,400
Speaker 4: Be hearing what.

31
00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:07,440
Speaker 7: Wait?

32
00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:09,760
Speaker 1: So how is he David's dog? Did he have him

33
00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:10,400
Speaker 1: in prison?

34
00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:14,079
Speaker 7: It was a prison program to be part of it,

35
00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:14,920
Speaker 7: because you've got to.

36
00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:18,840
Speaker 9: Like about parl certain so he would just kind of

37
00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:21,880
Speaker 9: putty up to the guys who haven't dodged on the

38
00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:24,440
Speaker 9: dog program so that he can hang out with the dogs.

39
00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:28,160
Speaker 1: Sue is David's wife and longtime advocate and knows more

40
00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:32,040
Speaker 1: about the case than anyone. Sue felt like the system

41
00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:35,560
Speaker 1: did David wrong. In her gut. She just didn't believe

42
00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:38,840
Speaker 1: he hired a hitman, let alone a teenage one for

43
00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:39,880
Speaker 1: three hundred dollars.

44
00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:43,079
Speaker 7: Something's missing. I can't I can't understand. There's got to

45
00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:44,440
Speaker 7: be more.

46
00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:48,040
Speaker 1: And when she started doing her own digging, she did

47
00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:57,799
Speaker 1: find more. So when you first came on the case,

48
00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:00,000
Speaker 1: what was the first things that you.

49
00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:03,920
Speaker 7: I said, Okay, well, I need to talk to Joe.

50
00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:06,160
Speaker 3: So I wrote Joe a letter, but I didn't put

51
00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:08,640
Speaker 3: a return address because I thought, if this guy's of killer,

52
00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:09,919
Speaker 3: I don't want him to know where I live.

53
00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:14,080
Speaker 7: And so I didn't get a response. And then the

54
00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:16,280
Speaker 7: second letter I wrote I was real vague and I

55
00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:17,400
Speaker 7: didn't put my last name.

56
00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:20,440
Speaker 3: But I had a po box by then, and he

57
00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:24,760
Speaker 3: wrote me back and said the typical will you send

58
00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:25,360
Speaker 3: me a picture?

59
00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:27,840
Speaker 7: You know, I'd like to get to know you, and

60
00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:30,800
Speaker 7: I'm like, oh, brother, it's a child.

61
00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:37,440
Speaker 3: But but I finally wrote him and just put it

62
00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:38,000
Speaker 3: on the table.

63
00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:41,200
Speaker 1: She told him that she'd gotten documents and there was

64
00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:44,480
Speaker 1: something wrong. She wondered if he'd been wrongly convicted.

65
00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:47,040
Speaker 7: It doesn't make sense to me.

66
00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:49,960
Speaker 3: So I gave him my phone number and he called me,

67
00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:53,000
Speaker 3: and that was on New Year's Eve, two thousand.

68
00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:59,320
Speaker 1: The tape is super hard to hear. I give Sue

69
00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:02,880
Speaker 1: a pass for two thousand's era recording. It's only half

70
00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:05,640
Speaker 1: an hour long, and then it cuts off as soon

71
00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:09,440
Speaker 1: as Sue answers. Joe pretty much got to the point.

72
00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:12,720
Speaker 10: But you're saying, you're saying that you're changing your statement,

73
00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:14,920
Speaker 10: that you did not do this March and David did

74
00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:16,760
Speaker 10: not He had nothing to do with it.

75
00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:20,640
Speaker 1: Just a few months after he testified at trial, Joe

76
00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:24,160
Speaker 1: had recanted his confession. Joe said that he and David

77
00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:29,560
Speaker 1: absolutely had nothing to do with Yvonne's murder. So Sue

78
00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:33,839
Speaker 1: asked the obvious question, why would he say he did

79
00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:41,640
Speaker 1: something he didn't do, like murder someone. He's hard to

80
00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:44,680
Speaker 1: hear here. What he said is the police told Joe

81
00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:49,960
Speaker 1: that David was filing for immunity. Joe tells Sue that

82
00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:52,559
Speaker 1: the police told him David was in the room next

83
00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:56,520
Speaker 1: door giving him up asking for immunity. In other words,

84
00:04:56,640 --> 00:04:59,359
Speaker 1: they said that David was making a deal and it

85
00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:01,119
Speaker 1: involved blaming Joe.

86
00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:04,520
Speaker 10: So, oh, I see, so you said what they wanted

87
00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:05,680
Speaker 10: you to say to get back at him.

88
00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:08,560
Speaker 7: Kind of, Oh, okay, pretty.

89
00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:10,640
Speaker 4: Much what they story.

90
00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:13,520
Speaker 10: But they had nothing on you if you didn't do it,

91
00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:14,719
Speaker 10: did they probably?

92
00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:22,200
Speaker 4: He thought, And they told me in story, they told

93
00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:24,400
Speaker 4: me a doublable for me to tell about the same

94
00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:31,720
Speaker 4: they did so eight floryers, great courts.

95
00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:34,200
Speaker 3: He said that they put him in a room and

96
00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:36,360
Speaker 3: they changed him to the wall by his arm, and

97
00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:39,719
Speaker 3: they spit on him. And they told him that they

98
00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:43,000
Speaker 3: wanted him to confess because David was in the next

99
00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:46,360
Speaker 3: room implicating him, and they were going to put him

100
00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:48,520
Speaker 3: in the electric chair and so forth.

101
00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:50,960
Speaker 1: Joe said his lawyers told him it was in his

102
00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:53,760
Speaker 1: best interest to take a plea to avoid the death

103
00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:58,720
Speaker 1: penalty considering the alleged statement David was making against him.

104
00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:02,000
Speaker 1: This phone call was soon was actually the first time

105
00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:05,320
Speaker 1: Joe was hearing that David in fact did not make

106
00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:09,479
Speaker 1: any statements to police nor implicate Joe in the murder.

107
00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:12,800
Speaker 1: And this wasn't the first time Joe was telling someone

108
00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:17,880
Speaker 1: he didn't kill Yvonne. Actually, his minister and youth leader,

109
00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:20,920
Speaker 1: wrote in an affid David that when she first went

110
00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:24,280
Speaker 1: to visit him after his arraignment, he was crying and

111
00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:26,080
Speaker 1: told her he didn't do it.

112
00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:28,560
Speaker 7: Who do you think did this.

113
00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:30,560
Speaker 4: Career?

114
00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:33,360
Speaker 7: I don't know, but you don't believe it's David.

115
00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:36,119
Speaker 4: I love life, Carol.

116
00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:40,920
Speaker 1: After speaking with Joe, Sue knew she opened a can

117
00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:44,640
Speaker 1: of worms, but she wasn't deterred. In his first interview

118
00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:47,440
Speaker 1: with her, Joe put himself out the scene.

119
00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:53,600
Speaker 10: So from the day, from the moment you walked in

120
00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:55,839
Speaker 10: that door, what is your story. Then you walked into

121
00:06:56,440 --> 00:06:59,440
Speaker 10: Why did you go there? You just went to fair

122
00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:01,480
Speaker 10: You walk there from the hotel.

123
00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:04,200
Speaker 4: Now, I've worked with a dads the semantic to it.

124
00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:09,160
Speaker 1: Joe still said that he walked from the hotel to

125
00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:11,920
Speaker 1: go see Yvonne and invite her to a hotel party.

126
00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:15,120
Speaker 1: This was one of the many stories Joe would tell.

127
00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:18,080
Speaker 1: And when he walked in, Yvonne was dead.

128
00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:19,960
Speaker 10: And then what did you think when you fell a

129
00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:20,400
Speaker 10: land there?

130
00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:22,680
Speaker 7: He didn't think.

131
00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:24,440
Speaker 4: You mean they knock out?

132
00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:31,400
Speaker 10: How did you have to step in the blood? How

133
00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:32,640
Speaker 10: did you happen to step in the blood?

134
00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:35,240
Speaker 4: Were heard clear?

135
00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:40,480
Speaker 1: So Joe put himself at the scene, but he said

136
00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:44,440
Speaker 1: he didn't do it, and that's possible. Sue found out

137
00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:45,560
Speaker 1: something about the defense.

138
00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:48,960
Speaker 3: I discovered after trial that they had contacted somebody and

139
00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:53,640
Speaker 3: not used him. They contacted somebody, and I believe it

140
00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:59,080
Speaker 3: was New Milton, Ohio or somewhere in southwestern Ohio. And

141
00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:05,720
Speaker 3: he had examined Joe's pants and Joe's knife quote unquote,

142
00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:09,760
Speaker 3: and he said that there was no blood evidence on them,

143
00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:12,080
Speaker 3: and he would expect to find blood evidence even if

144
00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:14,800
Speaker 3: they'd been in the elements for a period of time.

145
00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:19,080
Speaker 3: He said, there is no evidence at all of any

146
00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:20,720
Speaker 3: blood on either of these items.

147
00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:28,040
Speaker 1: No blood evidence whatsoever on the pants or knife that

148
00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:35,320
Speaker 1: was allegedly used in this incredibly brutal, violent, virtually decapitating murder.

149
00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:39,640
Speaker 1: But for some reason, the defense didn't call the expert

150
00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:42,760
Speaker 1: to the stand that would have been pretty important for

151
00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:46,480
Speaker 1: a jury to hear. Sue was able to get her

152
00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:49,960
Speaker 1: own expert to examine the crime scene photos and form

153
00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:51,080
Speaker 1: his own opinion.

154
00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:56,840
Speaker 11: Bred Turvy, a nationally known criminal forensics expert, picked apart

155
00:08:57,000 --> 00:08:59,079
Speaker 11: what he calls a botched.

156
00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:03,160
Speaker 1: Case, said Joe could not have cut Yvon's neck on

157
00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:05,920
Speaker 1: the couch. For one, where Joe would have been sitting

158
00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:07,800
Speaker 1: was covered in blood.

159
00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:11,640
Speaker 7: There's where he supposedly is sitting while he does this.

160
00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:14,199
Speaker 10: There's blood spatter all over the skirt of the couch,

161
00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:18,360
Speaker 10: so there's unless of blood transferred through his entire body.

162
00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:21,120
Speaker 7: There is no way anybody was sitting in that spot.

163
00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:24,160
Speaker 1: This is what Turvy told Channel five News he believed

164
00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:27,199
Speaker 1: happened and how the blood got on the couch. He

165
00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:30,240
Speaker 1: said that the heavy bloodspurs on the sliding glass doors

166
00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:34,560
Speaker 1: suggested Yvon was standing at the doors facing the puppies.

167
00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:37,480
Speaker 1: Outside when her throat was slit from behind.

168
00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:41,240
Speaker 11: Expert Brett Turvey says the killers struck while the victim

169
00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:44,199
Speaker 11: was standing here by the sliding glass doors, slice it

170
00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:45,000
Speaker 11: from behind.

171
00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:50,839
Speaker 6: She begins to spur blood, pumping blood violently out of

172
00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:51,160
Speaker 6: her neck.

173
00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:54,240
Speaker 11: The killer supported the victim on the way down, then

174
00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:56,280
Speaker 11: pulled her across the floor.

175
00:09:56,320 --> 00:09:58,920
Speaker 6: And there's dragon and smear marks in the blood. She's

176
00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:02,520
Speaker 6: being assisted from the sliding glass door to the area

177
00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:04,280
Speaker 6: between a couch and the television.

178
00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:07,000
Speaker 1: Based on the photos, it appears there was also a

179
00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:10,560
Speaker 1: dragmark on the floor like the killer may have dragged

180
00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:15,240
Speaker 1: Yvonne after slicing her throat, touching her bloody body. And

181
00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:20,600
Speaker 1: again it was incredibly bloody, and Joe had no blood

182
00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:21,720
Speaker 1: on his clothes.

183
00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:25,280
Speaker 7: She said that Joe's statement did not match the evidence.

184
00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:28,720
Speaker 1: Now I'm not saying Turvey's account is the right one,

185
00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:32,720
Speaker 1: but if someone like him had testified, it certainly could

186
00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:36,640
Speaker 1: have left reasonable doubt that Joe did this. But David's

187
00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:40,920
Speaker 1: team never called a rebuttal witness. And then there's the motive.

188
00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:45,679
Speaker 1: Prosecutors said David didn't want to pay child support at

189
00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:48,120
Speaker 1: the time of the murder. David said he was making

190
00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:51,480
Speaker 1: about fourteen dollars an hour at a high end car shop,

191
00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:54,959
Speaker 1: which in nineteen ninety nine was pretty good money around

192
00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:58,600
Speaker 1: twenty six dollars today. And since he was working on cars,

193
00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:01,160
Speaker 1: he says he also went to swap meets and sold

194
00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:05,120
Speaker 1: expensive parts for cash. He tells me one part could

195
00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:07,920
Speaker 1: pay a month of child support, which again was three

196
00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:11,559
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty one dollars. And again that motive, to

197
00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:15,280
Speaker 1: me is a bit off, not to mention paying three

198
00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:19,800
Speaker 1: hundred dollars for a teen hit man. It just seems

199
00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:31,319
Speaker 1: so weak to me. When Sue first started on the case,

200
00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:34,160
Speaker 1: it was twenty two years ago. She was young and

201
00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:37,959
Speaker 1: passionate and put in a ton of legwork. One of

202
00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:41,520
Speaker 1: the first people she spoke with was Linda McLaughlin, Eric

203
00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:45,000
Speaker 1: Cameron's mother. Remember, Eric is the father of three of

204
00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:48,360
Speaker 1: Yvonne's children. He's the reason David and yvon broke up.

205
00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:52,120
Speaker 1: Yvonn couldn't quit Eric even when he was in jail.

206
00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:55,839
Speaker 1: You talked to Linda at length about, you know, maybe

207
00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:56,640
Speaker 1: her involvement.

208
00:11:56,920 --> 00:11:58,400
Speaker 7: Yeah, I suspected everybody.

209
00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:03,280
Speaker 1: Linda was taking care of Eric and Yvonne's special needs son. Actually,

210
00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:06,360
Speaker 1: she basically raised him from the time he was born.

211
00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:09,280
Speaker 7: Yvonne gave her Vinnie went from the hospital. Is what

212
00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:10,079
Speaker 7: I understand.

213
00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:14,400
Speaker 3: Bennie needs special care, and I think she kept him

214
00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:17,480
Speaker 3: until he was poor because she took Yvonne took him

215
00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:23,120
Speaker 3: back just before the murder, which made me go, hmmm, right.

216
00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:26,760
Speaker 1: Because Linda wanted him right. But Yvonne had recently taken

217
00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:29,720
Speaker 1: Vinnie back from Linda, and that was causing tension between

218
00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:33,959
Speaker 1: the two. Sue thought, could this be a motive. Linda

219
00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:37,079
Speaker 1: passed away some years ago, so we weren't able to

220
00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:41,319
Speaker 1: speak with her, but luckily Sue recorded her conversation and

221
00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:44,120
Speaker 1: asked Linda straight up, I.

222
00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:50,640
Speaker 7: Understood special permission something reny from you. Would that make

223
00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:52,200
Speaker 7: you go I just want to kill her?

224
00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:52,920
Speaker 11: No?

225
00:12:53,520 --> 00:13:01,280
Speaker 7: No, and I had no power.

226
00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:04,160
Speaker 2: I can take you on how you walk to Jeryl, Well,

227
00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:07,319
Speaker 2: we're kind when I wanted to punch her out, but

228
00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:10,400
Speaker 2: as far as killing that, that ever even went through

229
00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:16,079
Speaker 2: my mind. I loved Benny. I don't worry as much

230
00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:20,839
Speaker 2: as I love my kid and still there. But I

231
00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:24,400
Speaker 2: understood to a certain degree why she was doing what

232
00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:25,120
Speaker 2: she was doing.

233
00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:28,640
Speaker 1: Sue is also suspicious about Linda's boyfriend at the time,

234
00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:33,199
Speaker 1: and his name is Jeremy. Remember Vinny was supposed to

235
00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:37,520
Speaker 1: have said he saw a Jimmy, Josh or Jeremy kill Mommy.

236
00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:41,320
Speaker 1: The name was hard to make out. Well, he certainly

237
00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:44,559
Speaker 1: would have known a Jeremy who was virtually his grandfather.

238
00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:48,679
Speaker 1: Sue put the question to Linda, does she think or

239
00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:52,079
Speaker 1: know anything about Jeremy killing Yvonne.

240
00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:54,920
Speaker 2: I don't see Jeremy doing anything like that.

241
00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:59,720
Speaker 7: Would he do it for you? You're a She took

242
00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:00,160
Speaker 7: the book me.

243
00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:04,439
Speaker 2: I don't think Jeremy had that and and to do

244
00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:07,520
Speaker 2: something like that, and I'm only part of it, you

245
00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:10,520
Speaker 2: got to fall. Yeah, what a good name because he

246
00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:13,640
Speaker 2: did me beat me up. He beat me up a

247
00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:14,520
Speaker 2: few times there.

248
00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:18,439
Speaker 1: Sue says she knew Jeremy was violent and the police

249
00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:20,160
Speaker 1: should have looked at him.

250
00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:22,480
Speaker 7: I remember that time I came here half and I

251
00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:29,440
Speaker 7: asked her just work that night? And he felt, oh

252
00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:33,720
Speaker 7: I why I can't talk? Her heart had affect fact.

253
00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:37,400
Speaker 1: But if the police considered Jeremy a suspect, there is

254
00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:42,240
Speaker 1: no record of any conversation with him. I also want

255
00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:44,440
Speaker 1: to note that when I spoke to Preston, one of

256
00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:48,160
Speaker 1: Yvonne's kids, who is now a grown man. He pointed

257
00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:49,360
Speaker 1: something out to me.

258
00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:52,200
Speaker 7: When I went to there that night, I was going

259
00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:52,560
Speaker 7: the way.

260
00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:55,880
Speaker 1: Vinnie had already been put to bed that night in

261
00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:58,920
Speaker 1: his diaper and slept in a crib on the ground floor.

262
00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:02,720
Speaker 1: He couldn't out alone yet when Tanya came in the house,

263
00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:05,960
Speaker 1: he was out of the crib and fully dressed when

264
00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:07,080
Speaker 1: police arrived.

265
00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:10,720
Speaker 7: So that somebody got him dressed. So who would know

266
00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:11,920
Speaker 7: where Vincent's clothes were?

267
00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:13,400
Speaker 1: What do you think about that?

268
00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:17,840
Speaker 8: I mean, well, not many people could just grab them.

269
00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:21,080
Speaker 8: So that's that if she didn't know you, he can

270
00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:24,160
Speaker 8: treat it out. You can't just pick him out as

271
00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:25,080
Speaker 8: a total stranger.

272
00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:29,160
Speaker 1: So to Preston, it seems likely the person who murdered

273
00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:32,520
Speaker 1: his mom was someone who knew Vinnie, was able to

274
00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:36,320
Speaker 1: hold him, dress him, and took care of him. Someone

275
00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:42,000
Speaker 1: like Vinnie's grandmother or her boyfriend Jeremy, or maybe a

276
00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:42,960
Speaker 1: friendly neighbor.

277
00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:50,920
Speaker 12: And there's a guy that she used to hang out

278
00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:53,760
Speaker 12: with flied around the corner from her out named Jim,

279
00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:58,440
Speaker 12: and I interviewed Jim, and she was.

280
00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:04,960
Speaker 1: Character Jim lived directly behind Yvonne, and as Sue mentioned,

281
00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:07,960
Speaker 1: Yvonn would often hang out with Jim. Jim's never been

282
00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:10,880
Speaker 1: formally accused in this case, so I'm only going to

283
00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:11,840
Speaker 1: use his first name.

284
00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:13,840
Speaker 7: I went to interview him just as a neighbor and

285
00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:18,280
Speaker 7: a witness, and I thought something's not right here.

286
00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:21,400
Speaker 1: Remember there's a neighbor across the street who said she

287
00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:23,920
Speaker 1: saw Yvonne on the night of March thirty first, the

288
00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:27,760
Speaker 1: night she was killed. The neighbor said Yvonne was outside

289
00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:31,880
Speaker 1: around five thirty pm crushing soda cans, talking to a

290
00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:35,320
Speaker 1: forty year old white man about five foot seven in

291
00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:40,000
Speaker 1: a plaid shirt with curly, graying hair. Turns out this

292
00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:43,640
Speaker 1: was Jim. And we know this because it's documented in

293
00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:47,920
Speaker 1: police reports that Jim himself told officers he talked to

294
00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:51,560
Speaker 1: Yvonne around that time in her driveway, just as the

295
00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:52,640
Speaker 1: neighbor described.

296
00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:55,800
Speaker 12: He was seeing my neighbor standing at her front door.

297
00:16:56,360 --> 00:17:00,200
Speaker 12: She's got a bunch of cans popcns dumped on the

298
00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:02,960
Speaker 12: ground on our sidewalk. Why outside her door, smashing with

299
00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:06,200
Speaker 12: her feet, and the neighbors saw her doing it. She

300
00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:08,560
Speaker 12: never finished smashing them. They were still laying there when

301
00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:09,439
Speaker 12: they found their body.

302
00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:12,960
Speaker 9: And I wouldn't you go finish that yeah, but he

303
00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:15,280
Speaker 9: was standing outside her front door with her, and he

304
00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:18,879
Speaker 9: told them in a police handwritten note that it was

305
00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:21,840
Speaker 9: he was there to see the puppies because he might

306
00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:22,480
Speaker 9: want a puppy.

307
00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:26,280
Speaker 1: Jim told officers he went to Yvonne's to see the puppies.

308
00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:29,160
Speaker 1: They were on the deck, visible to anyone who could

309
00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:29,760
Speaker 1: see the house.

310
00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:33,280
Speaker 3: And I thought, oh, I'd never even you know, And

311
00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:35,440
Speaker 3: then I started putting the Jimmy stuff together.

312
00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:40,520
Speaker 1: Josh, Jimmy or Jeremy. From what we know, Jim the neighbor,

313
00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:42,960
Speaker 1: was the last person to see Vonn alive. That was

314
00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:46,920
Speaker 1: about five thirty pm. The coroner said Yvonne could have

315
00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:51,360
Speaker 1: been killed as early as seven pm, just ninety minutes later.

316
00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:56,560
Speaker 7: So if you're at the door at five thirty, she's

317
00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:58,200
Speaker 7: bead at seven. In that hour and a half, he

318
00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:01,640
Speaker 7: had to see the puppies, have a conversation. You don't

319
00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:02,760
Speaker 7: walk in and go okay, there's.

320
00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:06,240
Speaker 1: Puppy by Jim told the officers that that night, March

321
00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:10,000
Speaker 1: thirty first, he worked from ten pm to six am.

322
00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:14,080
Speaker 1: This would have given him plenty of time to commit

323
00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:18,400
Speaker 1: the crime. Get to work by ten pm, So Jim,

324
00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:22,720
Speaker 1: like Joe, placed himself at Yvonne's house at five thirty

325
00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:26,399
Speaker 1: pm the night of the murder. When police questioned what

326
00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:30,000
Speaker 1: he did after he was seen in Yvonne's driveway, he

327
00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:32,920
Speaker 1: said he went on a bike ride, something that's just

328
00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:37,840
Speaker 1: impossible to verify. But then it looks like police stopped

329
00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:40,960
Speaker 1: following up on Jim, the last known person to see

330
00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:45,800
Speaker 1: Yvonne alive. Jim was not called to testify, and there's

331
00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:49,680
Speaker 1: no formal interview with him in the case file. All

332
00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:53,080
Speaker 1: there is is one officer's third person mention of what

333
00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:56,760
Speaker 1: Jim told police the day her body was discovered, that

334
00:18:56,880 --> 00:19:00,399
Speaker 1: he was there about five thirty pm, and then a

335
00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:04,400
Speaker 1: second neighbor told police they saw a guy leaving Yvonne's

336
00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:09,920
Speaker 1: house before she was discovered that morning. He gave police

337
00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:14,080
Speaker 1: his statement well before David's trial, but that report was

338
00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:18,520
Speaker 1: never given to David's defense team, and that could be

339
00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:19,280
Speaker 1: a bombshell.

340
00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:25,119
Speaker 5: So Frankly, when I was reading first about Joe, I

341
00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:27,200
Speaker 5: was like, yeah, I think David might have done that.

342
00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:28,320
Speaker 7: I think he might have.

343
00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:31,240
Speaker 5: But then as I I then when I made the

344
00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:34,840
Speaker 5: report and the George Hale story is like, no, something's

345
00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:37,040
Speaker 5: missing here, and why didn't the prosecution turn this over

346
00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:38,680
Speaker 5: and what is going on here?

347
00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:39,920
Speaker 4: What's up with that?

348
00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:44,080
Speaker 5: And why it wasn't further investigated. So it makes her

349
00:19:44,119 --> 00:19:46,160
Speaker 5: feel like there's more to the story.

350
00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:00,440
Speaker 1: Coming up on Deaf and Deceit and Alliance.

351
00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:04,080
Speaker 5: This man was in a house with a dead body

352
00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:07,480
Speaker 5: and was either cleaning up for the killer or was

353
00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:09,679
Speaker 5: the killer that a guy came out with.

354
00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:10,480
Speaker 7: A trash bag.

355
00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:11,520
Speaker 12: That's all I see.

356
00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:15,480
Speaker 5: You know, just glance why that report wasn't provided to

357
00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:17,119
Speaker 5: the defense, Like, what's up with that?

358
00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:21,360
Speaker 11: Did you find somebody you recommended? I did point out somebody,

359
00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:25,040
Speaker 11: Ail says. Detectives told him later the picture he pointed

360
00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:27,880
Speaker 11: out was that of an Alliance police officer.

361
00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:31,640
Speaker 5: That is the one key part of this case set

362
00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:34,280
Speaker 5: just never sat right with me, like the fact that

363
00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:37,960
Speaker 5: it was never turned over to the defense is shocking.

364
00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:46,680
Speaker 1: Death and Deceit and Alliance is produced and reported by

365
00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:51,320
Speaker 1: me Maggie Freeling, with editorial consulting from Amber Hunt. Aaron

366
00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:55,880
Speaker 1: Case is our legal researcher. Our executive producer is Steve Fishman.

367
00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:59,920
Speaker 1: Our engineer and production coordinator is Austin Smith. Eric axel

368
00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:01,600
Speaker 1: Rod is our assistant producer.

369
00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:11,959
Speaker 3: M HM