WEBVTT - #158 Jason Flom with Sabrina Butler 0:00:02.680 --> 0:00:05.520 It was late on the night of April eleventh, nineteen 0:00:05.559 --> 0:00:09.320 eighty nine, when a single teenage mother of two, Sabrina Butler, 0:00:09.440 --> 0:00:11.760 went for a job while her two young boys slept 0:00:11.760 --> 0:00:14.480 at home. When she returned and checked on her nine 0:00:14.480 --> 0:00:19.000 month old Walter, he wasn't breathing with no phone in 0:00:19.040 --> 0:00:22.480 a new apartment building, Sabrina picked him up and banged 0:00:22.520 --> 0:00:26.320 frantically on her neighbor's doors, begging for help. Finally, a 0:00:26.360 --> 0:00:29.240 woman let her in and showed Sabrina how to perform 0:00:29.400 --> 0:00:33.640 adult CPR on her infant son. At the hospital, they 0:00:33.680 --> 0:00:36.080 couldn't figure out what was wrong with Walter, and they 0:00:36.200 --> 0:00:40.960 blamed his internal injuries on child abuse. Sabrina was aggressively 0:00:41.000 --> 0:00:44.320 interrogated well into the morning hours, and a statement was 0:00:44.440 --> 0:00:47.600 drafted for her to sign, accounting for the damage to 0:00:47.680 --> 0:00:51.520 his internal organs, a common result of performing adult CPR 0:00:51.680 --> 0:00:57.880 on an infant. Tired alone and scared, Sabrina signed underneath 0:00:58.200 --> 0:01:02.160 the dotted line as an actor protest a parade of 0:01:02.240 --> 0:01:06.800 medical professionals, and her core statement made Sabrina's not guilty 0:01:06.840 --> 0:01:10.920 ply look like a callous lie, sending her to Mississippi's 0:01:10.959 --> 0:01:15.520 Death Row. Her novice trial lawyer contacted civil rights attorney 0:01:15.560 --> 0:01:20.200 and death penalty activist Clive Stafford Smith, whose investigation discovered 0:01:20.240 --> 0:01:23.360 and confirmed why Walter had stopped breathing in the first place. 0:01:23.920 --> 0:01:28.040 He suffered from chronic nephrotic syndrome brought on by polcistic 0:01:28.160 --> 0:01:33.039 kidney disease. Sabrina Butler is the first female death row 0:01:33.200 --> 0:01:38.399 xonnai in the United States. This is wrongful conviction with 0:01:38.560 --> 0:01:52.680 Jason Flomer, Welcome back to wrongful conviction. Today we have 0:01:52.880 --> 0:01:57.120 Sabrina Butler Smith, who is the first woman ever to 0:01:57.200 --> 0:01:59.840 have been exonerated from death row in the United States. 0:02:00.280 --> 0:02:03.360 And the story is much deeper than that, but Sabrina welcome. 0:02:03.400 --> 0:02:04.280 I'm so glad you're here. 0:02:04.400 --> 0:02:05.360 Thank you for having me. 0:02:06.040 --> 0:02:09.399 And we have another Smith by Skype. We have a 0:02:09.440 --> 0:02:13.280 British attorney who specializes in civil rights cases as well 0:02:13.280 --> 0:02:16.400 as overturning death penalty cases in the US. 0:02:16.400 --> 0:02:19.040 Clive Smith, thanks for being here and joining us over 0:02:19.040 --> 0:02:22.200 the phone. My pleasure, Sabrino. Let's start with you. 0:02:22.639 --> 0:02:26.800 I want to go back in time to your life, 0:02:27.040 --> 0:02:29.600 you know, as a teenager, having a child, having a baby, 0:02:29.639 --> 0:02:30.399 single mom. 0:02:30.240 --> 0:02:35.200 Right back in Mississippi. Yes, Columbus Mississippi, right, correct? And 0:02:35.480 --> 0:02:37.440 what was that like? How'd you deal with it? 0:02:37.480 --> 0:02:39.680 That's a lot of responsibility for a young kid like 0:02:39.720 --> 0:02:40.680 yourself back then. 0:02:41.120 --> 0:02:44.920 Well, actually being that young, I was kind of me 0:02:44.960 --> 0:02:47.800 and my mom didn't have a really good relationship, and 0:02:47.880 --> 0:02:50.760 so I think that led me down the path that 0:02:51.600 --> 0:02:55.600 I traveled on. And actually my son that passed he 0:02:55.760 --> 0:02:58.920 was my second child. I actually had two at that 0:02:59.040 --> 0:03:03.160 time on my own since I was fourteen, So basically 0:03:03.160 --> 0:03:04.799 trying to figure. 0:03:04.520 --> 0:03:07.839 Out life from fourteen, you have to grow up fast, Yes, 0:03:07.880 --> 0:03:11.760 I did. Sabrina was convicted, wrongfully convicted, and sentenced to 0:03:11.800 --> 0:03:15.240 death for the murder which we know was not a 0:03:15.320 --> 0:03:18.480 murder at all of her baby boy, Walter Dean Butler. 0:03:19.440 --> 0:03:25.200 So let's go back to April eleventh, nineteen eighty nine. 0:03:25.520 --> 0:03:29.679 You went out for a job, yes, and you returned 0:03:29.720 --> 0:03:31.960 to find a horrible situation. 0:03:32.400 --> 0:03:35.600 My son wasn't breathing, and I panicked, and I didn't 0:03:35.600 --> 0:03:37.600 know what to do because where I stayed at I'd 0:03:37.640 --> 0:03:40.520 only been over there a little while, didn't have a phone, 0:03:41.160 --> 0:03:44.120 I had just got the apartment through hood housing. I 0:03:44.160 --> 0:03:46.880 was a poor teenager that didn't have a job or money, 0:03:47.280 --> 0:03:49.280 and the people over there did not know me in 0:03:49.320 --> 0:03:51.760 that apartment complex, so it was kind of hard, and 0:03:52.000 --> 0:03:54.560 I didn't have a car or anything like that, and 0:03:54.640 --> 0:03:57.560 so I just grabbed him and started beating on doors 0:03:57.680 --> 0:03:59.680 trying to, you know, get someone to help me. And 0:03:59.720 --> 0:04:01.800 that was very difficult at that time of night because 0:04:01.840 --> 0:04:02.320 it was late. 0:04:02.520 --> 0:04:05.000 What time was it, almost twelve o'clock. 0:04:04.920 --> 0:04:07.520 So I did have a hard time trying to get help. 0:04:08.360 --> 0:04:10.880 The first lady that opened her door, she said that 0:04:10.960 --> 0:04:13.400 her kids were sick and she didn't have time to 0:04:13.440 --> 0:04:15.520 take me to the hospital. So that lady closed the 0:04:15.520 --> 0:04:18.440 door in my face, and when I ran downstairs, a 0:04:18.600 --> 0:04:21.039 lady from an inn apartment asked me what was wrong 0:04:21.279 --> 0:04:24.039 and grabbed my son and we took him in an apartment. 0:04:24.120 --> 0:04:26.840 She put him on the floor and started CPR. So 0:04:27.240 --> 0:04:29.520 I went next door to try to get someone else, 0:04:29.640 --> 0:04:31.960 and finally I got this couple that was willing to 0:04:32.000 --> 0:04:34.599 take me, and so when I went back in, she 0:04:34.720 --> 0:04:37.800 told me to hold his nose, blowing his mouth and 0:04:37.800 --> 0:04:40.000 pressing his stomach, but she didn't tell me the right way, 0:04:40.040 --> 0:04:43.240 so I applied adult CPR to my son all the 0:04:43.240 --> 0:04:46.400 way to the hospital, not knowing that whatever was wrong 0:04:46.520 --> 0:04:49.000 I probably was making it worse. I didn't know that though. 0:04:49.120 --> 0:04:51.680 I was just scared and I was trying to get 0:04:51.760 --> 0:04:55.039 him to breathe, but he he didn't. 0:04:55.960 --> 0:04:58.279 And we know that by the time you got to 0:04:58.320 --> 0:05:01.480 the hospital it was really too late. They attempted to 0:05:01.480 --> 0:05:05.440 resuscitate Walter at the hospital unsuccessfully, And then I have 0:05:05.520 --> 0:05:10.679 to say, there are, unfortunately, tragically a lot of cases 0:05:10.720 --> 0:05:14.279 like this where people, well meaning people like yourself, apply 0:05:14.400 --> 0:05:17.800 CPR that they've been taught to do, but they have 0:05:18.040 --> 0:05:20.400 never been taught the difference between doing it for a 0:05:20.480 --> 0:05:22.279 child or an adult. And we know that if you 0:05:22.320 --> 0:05:25.400 do it the normal CPR techniques to a child, it's 0:05:25.560 --> 0:05:27.840 virtually impossible to do that without breaking their ribs or 0:05:27.880 --> 0:05:29.479 causing some other kind of injuries. 0:05:29.160 --> 0:05:30.760 Because they're so little and so fragile. 0:05:31.920 --> 0:05:34.560 Clive, let's turn to you. How did this thing go 0:05:34.920 --> 0:05:38.920 so wrong so fast? And why was Sabrina convicted when 0:05:38.960 --> 0:05:40.560 all she was trying to do was help? 0:05:41.160 --> 0:05:44.719 Well, I mean, there are several factors. I mean, one 0:05:45.120 --> 0:05:48.960 is Sabrainer, as she says, was eighteen and panic stricken. 0:05:49.720 --> 0:05:54.080 Another is that and this was something I didn't know 0:05:54.200 --> 0:05:59.360 until I got involved in Sabrina's case. Actually that in Mississippi, 0:05:59.600 --> 0:06:02.760 which is true of all fifty states. If you go 0:06:02.839 --> 0:06:06.880 to a hospital with a child who's been injured, if 0:06:06.920 --> 0:06:10.479 the doctors and medical staff report this as child abuse, 0:06:11.000 --> 0:06:14.560 then they're absolutely immune from being sued or being prosecuted 0:06:14.560 --> 0:06:18.480 for anything. If they don't report it as child abuse, 0:06:18.560 --> 0:06:22.239 then they can be held liable themselves. So what happens 0:06:22.279 --> 0:06:25.000 when a child is brought in by a terribly panic 0:06:25.040 --> 0:06:30.680 stricken mother like Sabrina, is there's this osmotic pressure that 0:06:31.360 --> 0:06:35.279 forces the hospital to look at this and start talking 0:06:35.320 --> 0:06:37.800 about it as child abuse from the very beginning, whether 0:06:37.880 --> 0:06:40.880 that's true or false, and their insurance policy makes them 0:06:40.880 --> 0:06:44.200 do that. And obviously what that does to an eighteen 0:06:44.240 --> 0:06:48.000 year old Sabrina is make a panic even more. And 0:06:48.279 --> 0:06:51.440 then you get this other utterly bizarre thing. I mean, 0:06:51.480 --> 0:06:54.080 I've done now a lot of shaken baby cases and 0:06:54.240 --> 0:06:59.760 batter child syndrome cases. There are only two medical diagnoses. 0:07:00.240 --> 0:07:03.800 They have nothing to do with helping the child to 0:07:03.839 --> 0:07:07.880 get cured, but everything to do with prosecuting the caregiver. 0:07:08.480 --> 0:07:10.960 And that's those two diagnoses. So if you think about it, 0:07:10.960 --> 0:07:13.840 the diagnosis of that a child syndrome is it looks 0:07:13.880 --> 0:07:16.400 like the child has been abused, and then there are 0:07:16.440 --> 0:07:21.200 other elements of this diagnosis that the caregiver changes her story. 0:07:22.040 --> 0:07:24.240 And this has got nothing to do with treating the 0:07:24.360 --> 0:07:26.960 child for whatever it is, a broken rib or whatever. 0:07:27.360 --> 0:07:29.720 It's all to do with prosecuting the parents. So when 0:07:29.760 --> 0:07:32.760 someone like Sabrina says, you know, I don't know what 0:07:32.920 --> 0:07:36.480 happened the child stop breathing. I think he's sick, and 0:07:36.520 --> 0:07:39.920 then the doctors say, well, I don't think that's true. 0:07:40.000 --> 0:07:43.720 I think this is abuse. Then someone like Sabrina inevitably 0:07:43.760 --> 0:07:46.480 starts panicking and saying, well, you know, yesterday he had 0:07:46.480 --> 0:07:49.400 a little fall, or the other day something else happened. 0:07:50.280 --> 0:07:54.520 That's then a diagnostic criterion for saying that she abused 0:07:54.560 --> 0:07:57.200 that child. And then of course the police come in 0:07:57.560 --> 0:08:01.640 and start getting heavy handed at a young girl la 0:08:01.640 --> 0:08:02.240 like Sagrina. 0:08:02.760 --> 0:08:05.560 When I took my son in, I was panic and 0:08:05.600 --> 0:08:08.800 I was scared, but I thought about, oh, you're in 0:08:08.840 --> 0:08:11.240 trouble because you left him at the house by itself. 0:08:11.400 --> 0:08:14.160 That was my thing. So people were asking me, you 0:08:14.200 --> 0:08:16.520 know why were there so many statements. Well, the statements 0:08:16.600 --> 0:08:18.440 was trying to cover up the fact that I had 0:08:18.520 --> 0:08:21.680 left my son alone for those ten minutes, and so 0:08:21.760 --> 0:08:24.440 I was trying to explain that away. I knew that 0:08:24.920 --> 0:08:26.840 I should not have left him at home by myself, 0:08:26.880 --> 0:08:29.360 but I didn't kill him. I just was trying to 0:08:29.400 --> 0:08:32.480 cover that up. And so when we got an interrogation, 0:08:32.960 --> 0:08:35.000 you know, they asked me a bunch of questions, and 0:08:35.040 --> 0:08:38.840 I could just remember trying to, you know, say something 0:08:38.880 --> 0:08:39.760 to that fact. 0:08:39.960 --> 0:08:42.320 Did you have a lawyer or anyone to help you 0:08:42.440 --> 0:08:44.360 as you were there in your most panic state that 0:08:44.400 --> 0:08:46.400 anyone could ever be in having just lost your child? 0:08:46.880 --> 0:08:48.760 The only thing I had With the two detectives that 0:08:48.800 --> 0:08:52.600 were in the room, and they were dead set on saying, 0:08:52.920 --> 0:08:54.880 you stump your baby, You beat them. That's what they 0:08:54.960 --> 0:08:55.439 kept saying. 0:08:55.600 --> 0:08:59.640 But how did they finally succeed in their quest to 0:08:59.679 --> 0:09:03.000 get you to say a bunch of things that not 0:09:03.040 --> 0:09:05.280 only weren't true, but that you knew weren't true, and 0:09:05.320 --> 0:09:07.400 that they probably knew weren't true. 0:09:07.640 --> 0:09:11.199 Well, the lead investigator kept screaming at me, and when 0:09:11.240 --> 0:09:15.840 I finally started telling him what exactly what happened, he 0:09:16.040 --> 0:09:17.800 bought up everything that I had to say, and he 0:09:17.840 --> 0:09:21.079 threw that in the trash. And after so many hours 0:09:21.120 --> 0:09:23.880 of him yelling and screaming and looking like he wanted 0:09:23.880 --> 0:09:26.480 to get up and jump on me, fight me, you know, 0:09:26.559 --> 0:09:29.640 I was scared. He actually wrote out the statement and 0:09:29.679 --> 0:09:31.880 he shoved it in my face. He wrote on the 0:09:31.920 --> 0:09:34.360 statement that I had punched my son, and I just 0:09:34.400 --> 0:09:36.880 agreed to everything that they said because I wanted it 0:09:36.920 --> 0:09:39.160 to end. He kept saying, you know, this is what 0:09:39.240 --> 0:09:41.439 you did, and we need you to write sign this. 0:09:41.559 --> 0:09:43.320 You know, they kept screaming at me, and that was 0:09:43.440 --> 0:09:46.800 like four hours of interrogation with him, and I was 0:09:46.960 --> 0:09:50.120 just I was tired. I just didn't know how. I 0:09:50.200 --> 0:09:52.800 just wanted it all to end. So I didn't sign 0:09:52.840 --> 0:09:55.640 where he told me to. I signed under the line, 0:09:55.920 --> 0:09:58.880 hoping that that was my way of saying, look, I 0:09:58.920 --> 0:10:01.400 didn't do this and that someone would see that. 0:10:02.440 --> 0:10:04.960 Well, and at this point, you had been up right, 0:10:05.000 --> 0:10:09.280 because this started at midnight. This ordeal started at midnight. 0:10:09.360 --> 0:10:14.560 So now we're talking about a teenage traumatized grieving mother 0:10:15.320 --> 0:10:20.240 who hasn't slept, who is literally fighting for your life 0:10:20.280 --> 0:10:23.840 at this point, who knows how you would react. I mean, 0:10:23.880 --> 0:10:26.680 we've been talking about false confessions. We of course have 0:10:26.760 --> 0:10:29.400 our whole new season of the show False Confessions, which 0:10:30.080 --> 0:10:34.800 is very purposefully highlighting the fact that these false confessions 0:10:34.800 --> 0:10:38.280 play a role in approximately twenty five percent of wrongful convictions. 0:10:38.640 --> 0:10:41.559 In your case, the circumstances were even more grave because 0:10:41.600 --> 0:10:45.120 we know that ultimately you were sentenced to death. Yes, Clive, 0:10:45.200 --> 0:10:48.880 howe is it that they did such a ridiculously poor 0:10:48.960 --> 0:10:53.040 job investigating the medical side of this case, so much 0:10:53.080 --> 0:10:57.160 so that later on, when Sabrina was finally exonerated, that 0:10:57.600 --> 0:11:01.280 they basically acknowledge Oh, yeah, didn't really do any work 0:11:01.320 --> 0:11:03.160 on it. And the doctors were like, yeah, I guess 0:11:03.200 --> 0:11:05.680 I was wrong about that. I think most people like 0:11:05.760 --> 0:11:07.800 to think that that couldn't happen in America. 0:11:08.640 --> 0:11:11.520 Well, I tell you, when you think about what the 0:11:11.559 --> 0:11:16.680 causes are of illnesses and injuries and children, we're still 0:11:16.720 --> 0:11:20.160 pretty medieval in that, and you know we're getting better. 0:11:20.360 --> 0:11:25.160 But the other factor is that you have a GP. 0:11:25.440 --> 0:11:27.760 I have great sympathy with GPS. I don't know how 0:11:27.840 --> 0:11:31.480 on earth how some GP who's meant to know everything 0:11:31.520 --> 0:11:35.680 about everything is possibly going to be able to figure 0:11:35.720 --> 0:11:39.200 out what it is that's afflicting the person. And so 0:11:39.480 --> 0:11:43.080 you have these folk who actually are just not experts, 0:11:43.280 --> 0:11:45.840 and they're called in and they're asked to say what 0:11:45.960 --> 0:11:49.880 happened to this child? And again, all of this had 0:11:49.920 --> 0:11:52.360 been set in motion by what happened in the hospital, 0:11:52.559 --> 0:11:54.920 where the doctors had this sort of pressure to say 0:11:54.960 --> 0:11:57.640 that it was child abuse. And once they say it's 0:11:57.760 --> 0:12:01.520 child abuse, people professionals don't like to admit they made mistakes, 0:12:01.960 --> 0:12:04.360 and they really really really don't like to admit they 0:12:04.400 --> 0:12:09.440 made mistakes in cases where they contribute to an eighteen 0:12:09.520 --> 0:12:12.480 year old young woman being sent to death for something 0:12:12.559 --> 0:12:15.520 she didn't do. So when a doctor takes a position 0:12:15.880 --> 0:12:19.800 that this looks like abuse, there's this sort of human 0:12:19.920 --> 0:12:23.719 pressure to stick with it and to then start justifying 0:12:23.760 --> 0:12:28.200 it using grand delinquent Latin terms that no one else understands. 0:12:28.760 --> 0:12:32.840 And you know, in that first trial, there was no challenge, 0:12:32.920 --> 0:12:37.480 no meaningful challenge to these doctors coming in saying this 0:12:37.679 --> 0:12:40.600 was abuse, and they stated it like it was, you know, 0:12:40.640 --> 0:12:43.360 on a tablet and Moses in Mount Sinai. 0:12:44.200 --> 0:12:47.760 In this trial, from what I've read and seen about it, 0:12:47.760 --> 0:12:51.360 it's basically a joke. Not a funny joke, but a joke. 0:12:51.520 --> 0:12:55.440 I mean, this trial, no witnesses were called in your. 0:12:55.320 --> 0:12:58.840 Defense, because the disc attorney subpoened every last one of them. 0:12:59.240 --> 0:13:01.720 And one of myeries was drunk during the whole trial. 0:13:01.800 --> 0:13:03.600 He was popping cany in his mouth and he kept 0:13:03.600 --> 0:13:05.959 telling me, you know, we got this thing nipped in 0:13:06.000 --> 0:13:08.160 the bud, don't you worry about it. And so that's 0:13:08.200 --> 0:13:10.240 the way it went through the whole trial. I was 0:13:10.280 --> 0:13:12.120 just told to look at the jury. That was it. 0:13:12.480 --> 0:13:14.360 If you're a corporate lawyer in New York and you're 0:13:14.400 --> 0:13:17.040 representing someone for money, you get one thousand dollars an hour, 0:13:17.679 --> 0:13:21.000 and yet in Mississippi, for representing someone for their life, 0:13:21.040 --> 0:13:22.960 you'd get one thousand dollars for the whole case, and 0:13:23.360 --> 0:13:25.280 you get what you paid for. And there were two 0:13:25.400 --> 0:13:28.160 lawyers in Sabrina's first case, and one, as she says, 0:13:28.240 --> 0:13:30.920 I'm afraid it is absolutely true that he was just 0:13:30.960 --> 0:13:35.280 a drunk, and the other was this young guy who 0:13:35.400 --> 0:13:37.520 I have great respect for. But he had no idea 0:13:37.520 --> 0:13:40.720 what he was doing. He tried, and you know the 0:13:40.760 --> 0:13:43.680 thing I'll give him most credit for was after they 0:13:43.720 --> 0:13:47.120 had failed, Sabrina, the first thing he did was give 0:13:47.160 --> 0:13:49.520 a call to my office to get some help on 0:13:49.600 --> 0:13:52.199 the appeal. But you kind of wish that that had 0:13:52.240 --> 0:13:55.000 happened before poorse Sabrina had got sentenced to death. 0:13:55.320 --> 0:13:58.319 The trial took how long it took a week? You 0:13:58.400 --> 0:14:01.920 had now been held in jail awaiting trial for how long? 0:14:02.200 --> 0:14:04.520 Did a little bit over year before I went to 0:14:04.559 --> 0:14:05.520 try on the first trial? 0:14:06.200 --> 0:14:10.040 So you'd been in jail for a year. Obviously, that's 0:14:10.080 --> 0:14:13.360 the traumatic experience piling on top of the other, you know, 0:14:13.480 --> 0:14:17.559 awful experiences that you've had already. You've got one drunk 0:14:17.640 --> 0:14:20.000 lawyer and one lawyer who doesn't really know his way 0:14:20.000 --> 0:14:23.280 around the courtroom. But you know, you didn't do it right. 0:14:24.600 --> 0:14:27.240 So when the jury went out, how long did they 0:14:27.240 --> 0:14:27.880 deliberate for? 0:14:28.360 --> 0:14:30.600 I think about an hour or two. I just knew 0:14:30.640 --> 0:14:32.560 that they were going to come back and say I 0:14:32.600 --> 0:14:35.720 was guilty because my attorneys they didn't really, you know, 0:14:35.760 --> 0:14:37.840 stand up and do anything in my behalf. And it 0:14:37.920 --> 0:14:41.240 was like everything was solely on the district attorney. The 0:14:41.320 --> 0:14:44.920 jury was not looking at my attorneys at all. They 0:14:44.960 --> 0:14:46.840 were looking on the floor, they were looking at the ceiling, 0:14:46.920 --> 0:14:49.720 they was looking everywhere else but when my attorney spoke. 0:14:50.040 --> 0:14:52.560 But when the district attorney spoke, they were on the 0:14:52.640 --> 0:14:54.840 edge of the seats and so me looking at it 0:14:54.880 --> 0:14:57.480 at that age, I said to myself, I'm done for 0:14:58.000 --> 0:15:00.000 I mean, I knew that I just had that filming. 0:15:00.640 --> 0:15:03.520 I asked you a question on that though, because you know, 0:15:04.160 --> 0:15:08.760 if it's my son Wilh and he's died through some 0:15:08.960 --> 0:15:13.240 tragedy and I'm incredibly broken hearted about it. To then 0:15:13.400 --> 0:15:17.040 have some prosecutors stand up there and say that I'm 0:15:17.120 --> 0:15:20.520 guilty of murdering my own child, and then going one 0:15:20.560 --> 0:15:24.240 step further and being all pious and saying I'm so 0:15:24.280 --> 0:15:29.200 subhuman that I deserve to die when you know that 0:15:29.240 --> 0:15:30.960 the worst you did was maybe give out for a 0:15:31.040 --> 0:15:32.000 jog when you shouldn't have. 0:15:32.320 --> 0:15:35.760 Glad. They hurt me with every fiber of my being 0:15:35.840 --> 0:15:39.240 because I kept asking my attorneys to let me take 0:15:39.280 --> 0:15:41.560 the stand of my own defense, and they wouldn't do it. 0:15:41.720 --> 0:15:44.040 They kept saying, we got this thing, we got it 0:15:44.120 --> 0:15:46.000 nipped in the bud, we don't need you to testify. 0:15:46.680 --> 0:15:49.040 I bade them through the whole thing, and they will 0:15:49.080 --> 0:15:50.040 not let me testify it. 0:15:50.320 --> 0:15:54.280 And I try, and then they impugned your right to. 0:15:54.320 --> 0:15:57.520 Not testify her for themendment right, and then the prosecutor 0:15:57.560 --> 0:15:58.640 got up in her face. 0:15:58.400 --> 0:16:00.840 And said it looked like a right. That's what he did. 0:16:07.440 --> 0:16:10.480 The Pacers Foundation is a proud supporter of this episode 0:16:10.600 --> 0:16:13.920 and of the Last Mile organization, which provides business and 0:16:14.000 --> 0:16:18.400 tech training to help incarcerated individuals successfully. 0:16:17.920 --> 0:16:21.520 And permanently re enter the workforce. The Pacers Foundation is 0:16:21.600 --> 0:16:25.360 committed to improving the lives of Hoosiers across Indiana, supporting 0:16:25.440 --> 0:16:30.000 organizations dedicated primarily to helping young people and students. For 0:16:30.120 --> 0:16:32.880 more information on the work of the Pacers Foundation or 0:16:32.920 --> 0:16:36.760 the Last Mile Program, visit Pacersfoundation dot org or the 0:16:36.880 --> 0:16:43.560 Lastmile dot org. This episode is sponsored by AIG, a 0:16:43.680 --> 0:16:48.280 leading global insurance company, and Paul Weiss Rifkin, Wharton and Garrison, 0:16:48.360 --> 0:16:51.920 a leading international law firm. The AIG pro Bono Program 0:16:51.960 --> 0:16:55.880 provides free legal services and other support to many nonprofit 0:16:55.960 --> 0:17:00.360 organizations and individuals most in need, and recently they anounced 0:17:00.400 --> 0:17:02.960 that working to reform the criminal justice system will become 0:17:03.000 --> 0:17:06.440 a key pillar of the program's mission. Paul Weiss has 0:17:06.560 --> 0:17:10.399 long had an unwavering commitment to providing impactful, pro bono 0:17:10.480 --> 0:17:13.679 legal assistance to the most vulnerable members of our society 0:17:13.960 --> 0:17:17.600 and in support of the public interest, including extensive work 0:17:17.680 --> 0:17:19.040 in the criminal Justice area. 0:17:23.440 --> 0:17:28.120 When I walked into Mississippi's death throw, I was nineteen. 0:17:28.920 --> 0:17:31.280 I had to walk down this long haul and when 0:17:31.280 --> 0:17:34.120 I first got there, they put bugs, bread in your hair. 0:17:34.200 --> 0:17:36.200 They strip you of everything that you have. I sit 0:17:36.280 --> 0:17:39.880 in this glass tank for like two hours and I'm 0:17:39.920 --> 0:17:43.080 looking at all the people going around. And they came 0:17:43.160 --> 0:17:45.800 and a fingerprinted me and they just took all of 0:17:45.880 --> 0:17:48.840 what I thought was me away. They gave me this 0:17:49.040 --> 0:17:51.639 name tag. It had murderer on it, it had my 0:17:52.240 --> 0:17:56.199 MDOC number on it, and it had death. So I 0:17:56.240 --> 0:17:59.400 had to walk with my hands shackled around my waist 0:17:59.440 --> 0:18:02.119 and I had to walk with leg guards. And I 0:18:02.160 --> 0:18:04.280 had a security guard who's walking next to me, a 0:18:04.320 --> 0:18:06.879 correction officer, and he said, you see those inmates out 0:18:06.880 --> 0:18:09.400 there in that field, He said, we tell them when 0:18:09.400 --> 0:18:11.159 to get up, He said, we tell them when to 0:18:11.200 --> 0:18:13.320 go to sleep, We tell them what to eat. He said, 0:18:13.320 --> 0:18:15.800 what you'll die here. And by the time he said that, 0:18:15.840 --> 0:18:17.560 by the time I got to Maxic Security, because we 0:18:17.600 --> 0:18:22.000 had to walk, I was crying. I couldn't think. I 0:18:22.080 --> 0:18:24.600 was trying to figure out, you know, what was happening 0:18:24.640 --> 0:18:26.720 to me. So when I got there, they put me 0:18:26.760 --> 0:18:29.600 in a six by nine cell, no bigger than your bathroom, 0:18:29.800 --> 0:18:34.200 and shut the door and left. And during that time, 0:18:34.840 --> 0:18:37.800 that was one of the hardest things to ever have 0:18:37.840 --> 0:18:40.000 to deal with, knowing that I didn't kill my son, 0:18:40.800 --> 0:18:44.159 knowing that these people are saying we're going to kill you. 0:18:44.359 --> 0:18:46.480 I had a death date at the time, was July 0:18:46.520 --> 0:18:49.679 the second of nineteen ninety, and I didn't know that 0:18:49.720 --> 0:18:51.960 the state had to exhaust all state remedies before they 0:18:52.000 --> 0:18:54.520 could actually carry out his death sentence. So when that 0:18:54.600 --> 0:18:57.359 day came, that was one of the hardest days. 0:18:57.400 --> 0:18:57.600 Man. 0:18:57.800 --> 0:19:02.439 I paced the floor. I listened for every sound I 0:19:02.480 --> 0:19:05.280 listened to all the no was his keys make because 0:19:05.280 --> 0:19:08.000 I was thinking that they were coming to take me 0:19:08.080 --> 0:19:11.000 for my depth. So that is very it was very 0:19:11.080 --> 0:19:11.800 traumatic for me. 0:19:13.480 --> 0:19:15.440 That is completely insane. 0:19:15.520 --> 0:19:20.200 I mean, talk about psychological torture beside all the physical deprivation, 0:19:20.520 --> 0:19:22.640 and for you not to even know that you weren't 0:19:22.680 --> 0:19:24.840 going to be executed, no one bothered to tell you 0:19:24.920 --> 0:19:25.200 that you. 0:19:25.200 --> 0:19:26.560 Have I mean, that's nuts. 0:19:26.600 --> 0:19:28.080 I've never heard that before, and I've been doing this 0:19:28.080 --> 0:19:29.360 stuff for almost three decades. 0:19:29.400 --> 0:19:30.199 It's insane. 0:19:31.280 --> 0:19:34.240 And the fact that you're sitting here upright again and smiling. 0:19:34.520 --> 0:19:38.359 Is I you know, now I'm starting to understand why 0:19:38.400 --> 0:19:40.159 people say all the great things they say about you. 0:19:40.640 --> 0:19:46.080 So how did you find the strength to persevere? She 0:19:46.160 --> 0:19:47.879 was the only woman on death row in Mississippi at 0:19:47.880 --> 0:19:48.120 that time. 0:19:48.400 --> 0:19:50.920 No, I was not. It was another girl on death 0:19:50.960 --> 0:19:54.720 row named Susan Baffer who helped me a lot. But 0:19:54.880 --> 0:19:57.600 I say to anyone who asked that question, my most 0:19:58.000 --> 0:20:01.119 basic strength is Clyde. Because when Clyive, Clive was the 0:20:01.160 --> 0:20:04.040 only one who came to the prison. Clive brought me artwork. 0:20:04.200 --> 0:20:06.800 He kept talking to me. He kept saying, you know, 0:20:06.840 --> 0:20:09.600 give me a chance to look at this case. We're 0:20:09.640 --> 0:20:12.119 going to fix this. That's why I feel so close 0:20:12.160 --> 0:20:15.639 to him, because he saved my life. Without Clive or 0:20:15.760 --> 0:20:17.160 Rob McDuff. 0:20:16.760 --> 0:20:19.280 The other attorney, right, correct, I. 0:20:19.240 --> 0:20:21.840 Don't think I would be sitting here because I mean 0:20:21.880 --> 0:20:24.760 he was a godsend. Clyde was a godsend. And I 0:20:24.800 --> 0:20:28.119 thank him one hundredfold for bringing out the evidence in 0:20:28.160 --> 0:20:29.360 my case. I really do. 0:20:29.640 --> 0:20:31.679 And Clyve, so you got a letter one day in 0:20:31.720 --> 0:20:33.760 the mail from one of her trial attorneys. 0:20:33.800 --> 0:20:34.600 Is that how they started? 0:20:35.520 --> 0:20:37.840 I think he called me up actually, and I remember 0:20:37.960 --> 0:20:41.240 coming to see Sabrina, and you know, I was representing 0:20:41.240 --> 0:20:45.400 Susie Belfo at the time too, And it's sad to say, 0:20:45.480 --> 0:20:48.600 not the only time that I've heard of someone on 0:20:48.760 --> 0:20:51.359 the throw whether Lewis didn't even tell him that they 0:20:51.400 --> 0:20:54.600 weren't going to get executed. And you know, I remember 0:20:54.680 --> 0:20:57.920 meeting Sabrina for the first time, and you know, she's 0:20:58.000 --> 0:21:01.159 a kid, right, Sorry about that, Sabrina, that you were 0:21:01.200 --> 0:21:05.400 a kid, You're right, and you know she's stuck there 0:21:05.440 --> 0:21:08.160 all by herself. And you know, I looked at her 0:21:08.280 --> 0:21:10.359 case and I thought this is going to get reversed. 0:21:10.400 --> 0:21:13.080 I mean versus the comment on silence, but there's all 0:21:13.160 --> 0:21:16.400 sorts of other stuff that the Mississippi Supreme Court actually 0:21:16.400 --> 0:21:19.280