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Speaker 1: It was late on the night of April eleventh, nineteen

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Speaker 1: eighty nine, when a single teenage mother of two, Sabrina Butler,

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Speaker 1: went for a job while her two young boys slept

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Speaker 1: at home. When she returned and checked on her nine

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Speaker 1: month old Walter, he wasn't breathing with no phone in

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Speaker 1: a new apartment building, Sabrina picked him up and banged

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Speaker 1: frantically on her neighbor's doors, begging for help. Finally, a

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Speaker 1: woman let her in and showed Sabrina how to perform

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Speaker 1: adult CPR on her infant son. At the hospital, they

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Speaker 1: couldn't figure out what was wrong with Walter, and they

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Speaker 1: blamed his internal injuries on child abuse. Sabrina was aggressively

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Speaker 1: interrogated well into the morning hours, and a statement was

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Speaker 1: drafted for her to sign, accounting for the damage to

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Speaker 1: his internal organs, a common result of performing adult CPR

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Speaker 1: on an infant. Tired alone and scared, Sabrina signed underneath

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Speaker 1: the dotted line as an actor protest a parade of

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Speaker 1: medical professionals, and her core statement made Sabrina's not guilty

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Speaker 1: ply look like a callous lie, sending her to Mississippi's

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Speaker 1: Death Row. Her novice trial lawyer contacted civil rights attorney

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Speaker 1: and death penalty activist Clive Stafford Smith, whose investigation discovered

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Speaker 1: and confirmed why Walter had stopped breathing in the first place.

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Speaker 1: He suffered from chronic nephrotic syndrome brought on by polcistic

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Speaker 1: kidney disease. Sabrina Butler is the first female death row

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Speaker 1: xonnai in the United States. This is wrongful conviction with

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Speaker 1: Jason Flomer, Welcome back to wrongful conviction. Today we have

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Speaker 1: Sabrina Butler Smith, who is the first woman ever to

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Speaker 1: have been exonerated from death row in the United States.

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Speaker 1: And the story is much deeper than that, but Sabrina welcome.

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Speaker 2: I'm so glad you're here.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: And we have another Smith by Skype. We have a

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Speaker 1: British attorney who specializes in civil rights cases as well

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Speaker 1: as overturning death penalty cases in the US.

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Speaker 2: Clive Smith, thanks for being here and joining us over

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Speaker 2: the phone. My pleasure, Sabrino. Let's start with you.

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Speaker 1: I want to go back in time to your life,

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Speaker 1: you know, as a teenager, having a child, having a baby,

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Speaker 1: single mom.

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Speaker 2: Right back in Mississippi. Yes, Columbus Mississippi, right, correct? And

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Speaker 2: what was that like? How'd you deal with it?

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Speaker 1: That's a lot of responsibility for a young kid like

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Speaker 1: yourself back then.

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Speaker 3: Well, actually being that young, I was kind of me

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Speaker 3: and my mom didn't have a really good relationship, and

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Speaker 3: so I think that led me down the path that

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Speaker 3: I traveled on. And actually my son that passed he

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Speaker 3: was my second child. I actually had two at that

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Speaker 3: time on my own since I was fourteen, So basically

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Speaker 3: trying to figure.

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Speaker 1: Out life from fourteen, you have to grow up fast, Yes,

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Speaker 1: I did. Sabrina was convicted, wrongfully convicted, and sentenced to

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Speaker 1: death for the murder which we know was not a

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Speaker 1: murder at all of her baby boy, Walter Dean Butler.

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Speaker 1: So let's go back to April eleventh, nineteen eighty nine.

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Speaker 1: You went out for a job, yes, and you returned

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Speaker 1: to find a horrible situation.

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Speaker 3: My son wasn't breathing, and I panicked, and I didn't

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Speaker 3: know what to do because where I stayed at I'd

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Speaker 3: only been over there a little while, didn't have a phone,

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Speaker 3: I had just got the apartment through hood housing. I

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Speaker 3: was a poor teenager that didn't have a job or money,

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Speaker 3: and the people over there did not know me in

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Speaker 3: that apartment complex, so it was kind of hard, and

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Speaker 3: I didn't have a car or anything like that, and

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Speaker 3: so I just grabbed him and started beating on doors

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Speaker 3: trying to, you know, get someone to help me. And

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Speaker 3: that was very difficult at that time of night because

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Speaker 3: it was late.

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Speaker 4: What time was it, almost twelve o'clock.

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Speaker 3: So I did have a hard time trying to get help.

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Speaker 3: The first lady that opened her door, she said that

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Speaker 3: her kids were sick and she didn't have time to

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Speaker 3: take me to the hospital. So that lady closed the

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Speaker 3: door in my face, and when I ran downstairs, a

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Speaker 3: lady from an inn apartment asked me what was wrong

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Speaker 3: and grabbed my son and we took him in an apartment.

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Speaker 3: She put him on the floor and started CPR. So

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Speaker 3: I went next door to try to get someone else,

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Speaker 3: and finally I got this couple that was willing to

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Speaker 3: take me, and so when I went back in, she

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Speaker 3: told me to hold his nose, blowing his mouth and

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Speaker 3: pressing his stomach, but she didn't tell me the right way,

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Speaker 3: so I applied adult CPR to my son all the

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Speaker 3: way to the hospital, not knowing that whatever was wrong

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Speaker 3: I probably was making it worse. I didn't know that though.

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Speaker 3: I was just scared and I was trying to get

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Speaker 3: him to breathe, but he he didn't.

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Speaker 1: And we know that by the time you got to

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Speaker 1: the hospital it was really too late. They attempted to

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Speaker 1: resuscitate Walter at the hospital unsuccessfully, And then I have

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Speaker 1: to say, there are, unfortunately, tragically a lot of cases

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Speaker 1: like this where people, well meaning people like yourself, apply

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Speaker 1: CPR that they've been taught to do, but they have

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Speaker 1: never been taught the difference between doing it for a

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Speaker 1: child or an adult. And we know that if you

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Speaker 1: do it the normal CPR techniques to a child, it's

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Speaker 1: virtually impossible to do that without breaking their ribs or

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Speaker 1: causing some other kind of injuries.

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Speaker 2: Because they're so little and so fragile.

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Speaker 1: Clive, let's turn to you. How did this thing go

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Speaker 1: so wrong so fast? And why was Sabrina convicted when

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Speaker 1: all she was trying to do was help?

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Speaker 5: Well, I mean, there are several factors. I mean, one

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Speaker 5: is Sabrainer, as she says, was eighteen and panic stricken.

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Speaker 5: Another is that and this was something I didn't know

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Speaker 5: until I got involved in Sabrina's case. Actually that in Mississippi,

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Speaker 5: which is true of all fifty states. If you go

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Speaker 5: to a hospital with a child who's been injured, if

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Speaker 5: the doctors and medical staff report this as child abuse,

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Speaker 5: then they're absolutely immune from being sued or being prosecuted

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Speaker 5: for anything. If they don't report it as child abuse,

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Speaker 5: then they can be held liable themselves. So what happens

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Speaker 5: when a child is brought in by a terribly panic

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Speaker 5: stricken mother like Sabrina, is there's this osmotic pressure that

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Speaker 5: forces the hospital to look at this and start talking

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Speaker 5: about it as child abuse from the very beginning, whether

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Speaker 5: that's true or false, and their insurance policy makes them

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Speaker 5: do that. And obviously what that does to an eighteen

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Speaker 5: year old Sabrina is make a panic even more. And

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Speaker 5: then you get this other utterly bizarre thing. I mean,

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Speaker 5: I've done now a lot of shaken baby cases and

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Speaker 5: batter child syndrome cases. There are only two medical diagnoses.

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Speaker 5: They have nothing to do with helping the child to

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Speaker 5: get cured, but everything to do with prosecuting the caregiver.

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Speaker 5: And that's those two diagnoses. So if you think about it,

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Speaker 5: the diagnosis of that a child syndrome is it looks

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Speaker 5: like the child has been abused, and then there are

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Speaker 5: other elements of this diagnosis that the caregiver changes her story.

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Speaker 5: And this has got nothing to do with treating the

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Speaker 5: child for whatever it is, a broken rib or whatever.

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Speaker 5: It's all to do with prosecuting the parents. So when

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Speaker 5: someone like Sabrina says, you know, I don't know what

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Speaker 5: happened the child stop breathing. I think he's sick, and

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Speaker 5: then the doctors say, well, I don't think that's true.

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Speaker 5: I think this is abuse. Then someone like Sabrina inevitably

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Speaker 5: starts panicking and saying, well, you know, yesterday he had

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Speaker 5: a little fall, or the other day something else happened.

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Speaker 5: That's then a diagnostic criterion for saying that she abused

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Speaker 5: that child. And then of course the police come in

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Speaker 5: and start getting heavy handed at a young girl la

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Speaker 5: like Sagrina.

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Speaker 3: When I took my son in, I was panic and

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Speaker 3: I was scared, but I thought about, oh, you're in

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Speaker 3: trouble because you left him at the house by itself.

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Speaker 3: That was my thing. So people were asking me, you

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Speaker 3: know why were there so many statements. Well, the statements

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Speaker 3: was trying to cover up the fact that I had

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Speaker 3: left my son alone for those ten minutes, and so

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Speaker 3: I was trying to explain that away. I knew that

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Speaker 3: I should not have left him at home by myself,

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Speaker 3: but I didn't kill him. I just was trying to

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Speaker 3: cover that up. And so when we got an interrogation,

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Speaker 3: you know, they asked me a bunch of questions, and

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Speaker 3: I could just remember trying to, you know, say something

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Speaker 3: to that fact.

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Speaker 1: Did you have a lawyer or anyone to help you

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Speaker 1: as you were there in your most panic state that

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Speaker 1: anyone could ever be in having just lost your child?

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Speaker 3: The only thing I had With the two detectives that

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Speaker 3: were in the room, and they were dead set on saying,

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Speaker 3: you stump your baby, You beat them. That's what they

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Speaker 3: kept saying.

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Speaker 1: But how did they finally succeed in their quest to

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Speaker 1: get you to say a bunch of things that not

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Speaker 1: only weren't true, but that you knew weren't true, and

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Speaker 1: that they probably knew weren't true.

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Speaker 3: Well, the lead investigator kept screaming at me, and when

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Speaker 3: I finally started telling him what exactly what happened, he

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Speaker 3: bought up everything that I had to say, and he

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Speaker 3: threw that in the trash. And after so many hours

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Speaker 3: of him yelling and screaming and looking like he wanted

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Speaker 3: to get up and jump on me, fight me, you know,

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Speaker 3: I was scared. He actually wrote out the statement and

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Speaker 3: he shoved it in my face. He wrote on the

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Speaker 3: statement that I had punched my son, and I just

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Speaker 3: agreed to everything that they said because I wanted it

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Speaker 3: to end. He kept saying, you know, this is what

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Speaker 3: you did, and we need you to write sign this.

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Speaker 3: You know, they kept screaming at me, and that was

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Speaker 3: like four hours of interrogation with him, and I was

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Speaker 3: just I was tired. I just didn't know how. I

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Speaker 3: just wanted it all to end. So I didn't sign

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Speaker 3: where he told me to. I signed under the line,

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Speaker 3: hoping that that was my way of saying, look, I

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Speaker 3: didn't do this and that someone would see that.

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Speaker 1: Well, and at this point, you had been up right,

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Speaker 1: because this started at midnight. This ordeal started at midnight.

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Speaker 1: So now we're talking about a teenage traumatized grieving mother

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Speaker 1: who hasn't slept, who is literally fighting for your life

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Speaker 1: at this point, who knows how you would react. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we've been talking about false confessions. We of course have

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Speaker 1: our whole new season of the show False Confessions, which

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Speaker 1: is very purposefully highlighting the fact that these false confessions

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Speaker 1: play a role in approximately twenty five percent of wrongful convictions.

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Speaker 1: In your case, the circumstances were even more grave because

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Speaker 1: we know that ultimately you were sentenced to death. Yes, Clive,

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Speaker 1: howe is it that they did such a ridiculously poor

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Speaker 1: job investigating the medical side of this case, so much

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Speaker 1: so that later on, when Sabrina was finally exonerated, that

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Speaker 1: they basically acknowledge Oh, yeah, didn't really do any work

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Speaker 1: on it. And the doctors were like, yeah, I guess

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Speaker 1: I was wrong about that. I think most people like

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Speaker 1: to think that that couldn't happen in America.

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Speaker 5: Well, I tell you, when you think about what the

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Speaker 5: causes are of illnesses and injuries and children, we're still

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Speaker 5: pretty medieval in that, and you know we're getting better.

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Speaker 5: But the other factor is that you have a GP.

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Speaker 5: I have great sympathy with GPS. I don't know how

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Speaker 5: on earth how some GP who's meant to know everything

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Speaker 5: about everything is possibly going to be able to figure

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Speaker 5: out what it is that's afflicting the person. And so

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Speaker 5: you have these folk who actually are just not experts,

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Speaker 5: and they're called in and they're asked to say what

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Speaker 5: happened to this child? And again, all of this had

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Speaker 5: been set in motion by what happened in the hospital,

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Speaker 5: where the doctors had this sort of pressure to say

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Speaker 5: that it was child abuse. And once they say it's

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Speaker 5: child abuse, people professionals don't like to admit they made mistakes,

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Speaker 5: and they really really really don't like to admit they

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Speaker 5: made mistakes in cases where they contribute to an eighteen

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Speaker 5: year old young woman being sent to death for something

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Speaker 5: she didn't do. So when a doctor takes a position

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Speaker 5: that this looks like abuse, there's this sort of human

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Speaker 5: pressure to stick with it and to then start justifying

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Speaker 5: it using grand delinquent Latin terms that no one else understands.

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Speaker 5: And you know, in that first trial, there was no challenge,

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Speaker 5: no meaningful challenge to these doctors coming in saying this

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Speaker 5: was abuse, and they stated it like it was, you know,

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Speaker 5: on a tablet and Moses in Mount Sinai.

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Speaker 1: In this trial, from what I've read and seen about it,

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Speaker 1: it's basically a joke. Not a funny joke, but a joke.

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Speaker 1: I mean, this trial, no witnesses were called in your.

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Speaker 3: Defense, because the disc attorney subpoened every last one of them.

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Speaker 3: And one of myeries was drunk during the whole trial.

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Speaker 3: He was popping cany in his mouth and he kept

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Speaker 3: telling me, you know, we got this thing nipped in

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Speaker 3: the bud, don't you worry about it. And so that's

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Speaker 3: the way it went through the whole trial. I was

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Speaker 3: just told to look at the jury. That was it.

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Speaker 5: If you're a corporate lawyer in New York and you're

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Speaker 5: representing someone for money, you get one thousand dollars an hour,

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Speaker 5: and yet in Mississippi, for representing someone for their life,

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Speaker 5: you'd get one thousand dollars for the whole case, and

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Speaker 5: you get what you paid for. And there were two

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Speaker 5: lawyers in Sabrina's first case, and one, as she says,

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Speaker 5: I'm afraid it is absolutely true that he was just

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Speaker 5: a drunk, and the other was this young guy who

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Speaker 5: I have great respect for. But he had no idea

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Speaker 5: what he was doing. He tried, and you know the

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Speaker 5: thing I'll give him most credit for was after they

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Speaker 5: had failed, Sabrina, the first thing he did was give

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Speaker 5: a call to my office to get some help on

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Speaker 5: the appeal. But you kind of wish that that had

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Speaker 5: happened before poorse Sabrina had got sentenced to death.

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Speaker 1: The trial took how long it took a week? You

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Speaker 1: had now been held in jail awaiting trial for how long?

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Speaker 3: Did a little bit over year before I went to

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Speaker 3: try on the first trial?

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Speaker 1: So you'd been in jail for a year. Obviously, that's

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Speaker 1: the traumatic experience piling on top of the other, you know,

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Speaker 1: awful experiences that you've had already. You've got one drunk

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Speaker 1: lawyer and one lawyer who doesn't really know his way

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Speaker 1: around the courtroom. But you know, you didn't do it right.

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Speaker 2: So when the jury went out, how long did they

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Speaker 2: deliberate for?

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Speaker 3: I think about an hour or two. I just knew

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Speaker 3: that they were going to come back and say I

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Speaker 3: was guilty because my attorneys they didn't really, you know,

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Speaker 3: stand up and do anything in my behalf. And it

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Speaker 3: was like everything was solely on the district attorney. The

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Speaker 3: jury was not looking at my attorneys at all. They

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Speaker 3: were looking on the floor, they were looking at the ceiling,

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Speaker 3: they was looking everywhere else but when my attorney spoke.

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Speaker 3: But when the district attorney spoke, they were on the

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Speaker 3: edge of the seats and so me looking at it

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Speaker 3: at that age, I said to myself, I'm done for

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Speaker 3: I mean, I knew that I just had that filming.

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Speaker 5: I asked you a question on that though, because you know,

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Speaker 5: if it's my son Wilh and he's died through some

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Speaker 5: tragedy and I'm incredibly broken hearted about it. To then

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Speaker 5: have some prosecutors stand up there and say that I'm

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Speaker 5: guilty of murdering my own child, and then going one

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Speaker 5: step further and being all pious and saying I'm so

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Speaker 5: subhuman that I deserve to die when you know that

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Speaker 5: the worst you did was maybe give out for a

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Speaker 5: jog when you shouldn't have.

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Speaker 3: Glad. They hurt me with every fiber of my being

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Speaker 3: because I kept asking my attorneys to let me take

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Speaker 3: the stand of my own defense, and they wouldn't do it.

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Speaker 3: They kept saying, we got this thing, we got it

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Speaker 3: nipped in the bud, we don't need you to testify.

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Speaker 3: I bade them through the whole thing, and they will

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Speaker 3: not let me testify it.

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Speaker 2: And I try, and then they impugned your right to.

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Speaker 1: Not testify her for themendment right, and then the prosecutor

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Speaker 1: got up in her face.

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Speaker 3: And said it looked like a right. That's what he did.

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Speaker 4: The Pacers Foundation is a proud supporter of this episode

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Speaker 4: and of the Last Mile organization, which provides business and

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Speaker 4: tech training to help incarcerated individuals successfully.

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Speaker 1: And permanently re enter the workforce. The Pacers Foundation is

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Speaker 1: committed to improving the lives of Hoosiers across Indiana, supporting

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Speaker 1: organizations dedicated primarily to helping young people and students. For

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Speaker 1: more information on the work of the Pacers Foundation or

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Speaker 1: the Last Mile Program, visit Pacersfoundation dot org or the

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Speaker 1: Lastmile dot org. This episode is sponsored by AIG, a

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Speaker 1: leading global insurance company, and Paul Weiss Rifkin, Wharton and Garrison,

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Speaker 1: a leading international law firm. The AIG pro Bono Program

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Speaker 1: provides free legal services and other support to many nonprofit

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Speaker 1: organizations and individuals most in need, and recently they anounced

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Speaker 1: that working to reform the criminal justice system will become

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Speaker 1: a key pillar of the program's mission. Paul Weiss has

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Speaker 1: long had an unwavering commitment to providing impactful, pro bono

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Speaker 1: legal assistance to the most vulnerable members of our society

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Speaker 1: and in support of the public interest, including extensive work

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Speaker 1: in the criminal Justice area.

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Speaker 3: When I walked into Mississippi's death throw, I was nineteen.

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Speaker 3: I had to walk down this long haul and when

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Speaker 3: I first got there, they put bugs, bread in your hair.

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Speaker 3: They strip you of everything that you have. I sit

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Speaker 3: in this glass tank for like two hours and I'm

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Speaker 3: looking at all the people going around. And they came

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Speaker 3: and a fingerprinted me and they just took all of

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Speaker 3: what I thought was me away. They gave me this

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Speaker 3: name tag. It had murderer on it, it had my

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Speaker 3: MDOC number on it, and it had death. So I

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Speaker 3: had to walk with my hands shackled around my waist

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Speaker 3: and I had to walk with leg guards. And I

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Speaker 3: had a security guard who's walking next to me, a

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Speaker 3: correction officer, and he said, you see those inmates out

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Speaker 3: there in that field, He said, we tell them when

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Speaker 3: to get up, He said, we tell them when to

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Speaker 3: go to sleep, We tell them what to eat. He said,

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Speaker 3: what you'll die here. And by the time he said that,

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Speaker 3: by the time I got to Maxic Security, because we

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Speaker 3: had to walk, I was crying. I couldn't think. I

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Speaker 3: was trying to figure out, you know, what was happening

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Speaker 3: to me. So when I got there, they put me

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Speaker 3: in a six by nine cell, no bigger than your bathroom,

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Speaker 3: and shut the door and left. And during that time,

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Speaker 3: that was one of the hardest things to ever have

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Speaker 3: to deal with, knowing that I didn't kill my son,

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Speaker 3: knowing that these people are saying we're going to kill you.

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Speaker 3: I had a death date at the time, was July

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Speaker 3: the second of nineteen ninety, and I didn't know that

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Speaker 3: the state had to exhaust all state remedies before they

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Speaker 3: could actually carry out his death sentence. So when that

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Speaker 3: day came, that was one of the hardest days.

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Speaker 2: Man.

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Speaker 3: I paced the floor. I listened for every sound I

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Speaker 3: listened to all the no was his keys make because

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Speaker 3: I was thinking that they were coming to take me

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Speaker 3: for my depth. So that is very it was very

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Speaker 3: traumatic for me.

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Speaker 2: That is completely insane.

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Speaker 1: I mean, talk about psychological torture beside all the physical deprivation,

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Speaker 1: and for you not to even know that you weren't

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Speaker 1: going to be executed, no one bothered to tell you

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Speaker 1: that you.

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Speaker 2: Have I mean, that's nuts.

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Speaker 1: I've never heard that before, and I've been doing this

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Speaker 1: stuff for almost three decades.

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Speaker 2: It's insane.

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Speaker 1: And the fact that you're sitting here upright again and smiling.

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Speaker 1: Is I you know, now I'm starting to understand why

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Speaker 1: people say all the great things they say about you.

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Speaker 1: So how did you find the strength to persevere? She

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Speaker 1: was the only woman on death row in Mississippi at

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Speaker 1: that time.

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Speaker 3: No, I was not. It was another girl on death

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Speaker 3: row named Susan Baffer who helped me a lot. But

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Speaker 3: I say to anyone who asked that question, my most

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Speaker 3: basic strength is Clyde. Because when Clyive, Clive was the

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Speaker 3: only one who came to the prison. Clive brought me artwork.

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Speaker 3: He kept talking to me. He kept saying, you know,

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Speaker 3: give me a chance to look at this case. We're

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Speaker 3: going to fix this. That's why I feel so close

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Speaker 3: to him, because he saved my life. Without Clive or

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Speaker 3: Rob McDuff.

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Speaker 2: The other attorney, right, correct, I.

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Speaker 3: Don't think I would be sitting here because I mean

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Speaker 3: he was a godsend. Clyde was a godsend. And I

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Speaker 3: thank him one hundredfold for bringing out the evidence in

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Speaker 3: my case. I really do.

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Speaker 1: And Clyve, so you got a letter one day in

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Speaker 1: the mail from one of her trial attorneys.

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Speaker 2: Is that how they started?

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Speaker 5: I think he called me up actually, and I remember

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Speaker 5: coming to see Sabrina, and you know, I was representing

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Speaker 5: Susie Belfo at the time too, And it's sad to say,

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Speaker 5: not the only time that I've heard of someone on

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Speaker 5: the throw whether Lewis didn't even tell him that they

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Speaker 5: weren't going to get executed. And you know, I remember

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Speaker 5: meeting Sabrina for the first time, and you know, she's

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Speaker 5: a kid, right, Sorry about that, Sabrina, that you were

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Speaker 5: a kid, You're right, and you know she's stuck there

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Speaker 5: all by herself. And you know, I looked at her

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Speaker 5: case and I thought this is going to get reversed.

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Speaker 5: I mean versus the comment on silence, but there's all

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Speaker 5: sorts of other stuff that the Mississippi Supreme Court actually

401
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Speaker 5: didn't even reach. So I was pretty confident we were

402
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Speaker 5: going to get a new trial. But then you know,

403
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Speaker 5: we were going to have to go back and start again.

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Speaker 5: And you were convinced you were going to get executed.

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Speaker 5: I was convinced you weren't, but there was still a

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Speaker 5: long road ahead of us. Yeah, the case against it

407
00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:35,120
Speaker 5: was such nonsense. But nevertheless, you know, once someone's been

408
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Speaker 5: convicted and since to death, there is a huge presumption

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Speaker 5: of guilt and it's going to be really hard to

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Speaker 5: get them out from under it.

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Speaker 1: Sabrina on death Rout in Mississippi. I know you talk

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Speaker 1: about the one other person who was there with you, Susan.

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Speaker 3: Yes, Susan baff Did she give.

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Speaker 2: You hope to persevere?

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Speaker 1: I mean you talked about Clive and the other attorney

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Speaker 1: who came to your rescue, quite literally, like the Avengers

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Speaker 1: writing it out of nowhere, I guess.

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Speaker 2: But were there.

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Speaker 5: Any God, I'd like to be an Avenger? I appreciate it,

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Speaker 5: I got it.

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Speaker 1: Well, so Brina and I are going to go to

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Speaker 1: a costume store and get your cake when we're done here.

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Speaker 2: So all right, Yeah, I don't worry about it.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, was there any Was there any particular moment

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Speaker 1: that you think back on and you go, that was

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Speaker 1: a moment when I found hope.

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Speaker 3: Well, I can remember going through my deaf date. Before that.

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Speaker 3: We used to get down on the floor and the

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Speaker 3: toilets were connected between walls, and we would have that

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Speaker 3: as our phone, and I started talking to her. She

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Speaker 3: was older than me. I think Susan was like twenty

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Speaker 3: five or twenty six when she got sentenced in the

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Speaker 3: same county that I was from Columbus, Misissippi. Clyve worked

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Speaker 3: on her case as well, and so we got to

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Speaker 3: know each other like that, you know, And she started

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Speaker 3: talking to me and was trying to explain to me

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Speaker 3: about the death sentence and how it works and stuff

438
00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:56,320
Speaker 3: like that after the fact. So that's how I had

439
00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:57,480
Speaker 3: someone to talk to.

440
00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:00,159
Speaker 2: So she communicated through the event or through.

441
00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:02,360
Speaker 3: Through the vent, through the vent in the toilet. They

442
00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:05,560
Speaker 3: kept us where we couldn't talk to anyone. They put

443
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:07,280
Speaker 3: us down this hall and they put a piece of

444
00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:10,480
Speaker 3: tape on the floor because they didn't know where to

445
00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:14,240
Speaker 3: put female death Row inmates. So we were just down

446
00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:17,320
Speaker 3: a hall and I think it had no one beyond

447
00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:19,359
Speaker 3: this point. And as far as me and Susan, we

448
00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:21,840
Speaker 3: had to sign paper saying that we wouldn't kill each

449
00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:24,240
Speaker 3: other before we could even go on yard all together.

450
00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:27,040
Speaker 3: Everywhere we went we had to be shackled. We had

451
00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:30,119
Speaker 3: no contact. No other inmates could come and touch us

452
00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:33,440
Speaker 3: or say anything to us. We were locked down twenty

453
00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:35,320
Speaker 3: three hours a day, and then when they did give

454
00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:38,040
Speaker 3: us yard call, it was just stand in this bull

455
00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:41,480
Speaker 3: pen like you do dogs, with no shade, no nothing.

456
00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:44,360
Speaker 3: It's just standing out there that's the way they had us.

457
00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:49,280
Speaker 1: I mean, it was crazy, but now we know you're here,

458
00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:53,320
Speaker 1: and I want to highlight that the odds changed a

459
00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:57,560
Speaker 1: lot in court with proper legal representation that everybody should have.

460
00:23:57,680 --> 00:23:58,880
Speaker 2: And Clive, when.

461
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:02,680
Speaker 1: Did you that the tide really turned in the retrial.

462
00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:05,680
Speaker 5: Well, you have to remember that actually no one ends

463
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:09,600
Speaker 5: up in prisoner on death row for something they didn't

464
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:13,040
Speaker 5: do without there being a semblance of evidence. First, there

465
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:16,720
Speaker 5: was the question of the injuries to little Walter. You

466
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:21,680
Speaker 5: had the injuries to his chest, which we could explain

467
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:26,760
Speaker 5: through CPR, and that also tied into the statement against Sabrina,

468
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:30,760
Speaker 5: because the police had co aster into saying she punched

469
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:33,560
Speaker 5: the child, which wasn't that far from the truth. The

470
00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:36,040
Speaker 5: truth is she had done CPR to the child in

471
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:39,359
Speaker 5: a way that was almost the equivalent. But this was

472
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:42,320
Speaker 5: after the child was succumbing to other things, and so

473
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:46,440
Speaker 5: we were able to show to the jury the way

474
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:50,480
Speaker 5: that the police co asked. Most importantly I think was

475
00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:54,880
Speaker 5: the medical evidence. I spent many many long hours in

476
00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:59,359
Speaker 5: the medical library in you Orleans looking for what I

477
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:03,040
Speaker 5: thought the real explanation would be for what we saw

478
00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:05,280
Speaker 5: in this child. And that was when I came across

479
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:10,320
Speaker 5: the chronic neuphrotic syndrome, the syndrome that Sabrina's daughter has too.

480
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:14,600
Speaker 5: You know, this seemed clearly to explain everything we were seeing,

481
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:17,920
Speaker 5: and that was one part of hope, because we were

482
00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:22,600
Speaker 5: able to get our own medical examiner who could give

483
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:26,720
Speaker 5: an explanation for what really happened, but also get their

484
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:30,080
Speaker 5: medical examiner to admit what he didn't know, and their

485
00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:33,920
Speaker 5: GP also to admit that they simply didn't know that

486
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:37,760
Speaker 5: there was this chronic nephrotic syndrome that could explain all

487
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:40,480
Speaker 5: of the things they saw, and they just didn't know

488
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:44,240
Speaker 5: about it because that was beyond their exploitise. And then,

489
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:47,560
Speaker 5: you know, I think the turning point in the trial

490
00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:50,879
Speaker 5: was when we had their cup on the stand and

491
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:56,200
Speaker 5: I had this really ugly doll, and I wanted him

492
00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:59,960
Speaker 5: to show the jury how he would do CPR on

493
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:02,760
Speaker 5: a little infant. And you know, it didn't really matter

494
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:06,159
Speaker 5: what he did because he was a police officer who

495
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:09,600
Speaker 5: was trained in CPR. So if he did it properly

496
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:13,240
Speaker 5: with two little fingers on the infant's chest, then that

497
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 5: would demonstrate what no one else in the courtroom probably knew,

498
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:18,760
Speaker 5: which was how to do it properly. But if he

499
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 5: got it wrong, then that was the end of that case.

500
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:25,320
Speaker 5: Because if the police officer trained like that would do

501
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:29,360
Speaker 5: CPR in the way that we said that Sabrina had

502
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:33,160
Speaker 5: done it, in a way that would crush the infant's ribs,

503
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:36,800
Speaker 5: then you know, that was an incredibly powerful argument for

504
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 5: what had actually happened. And sure enough, he would have

505
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:42,240
Speaker 5: killed that little child the way he did CPR. He

506
00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:44,000
Speaker 5: put his two hands on it, and he would have

507
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:47,000
Speaker 5: crushed the child. And then of course he went out

508
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 5: in the hall, and I knew he was going to

509
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:51,560
Speaker 5: tell his body in the hall that we just got him.

510
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:54,360
Speaker 5: So I made an argument to the judge in front

511
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 5: of the jury that I was afraid that he was

512
00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:58,879
Speaker 5: going to tell the next police officer how to do

513
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:01,879
Speaker 5: it properly, And sure enough, that's what he did, And

514
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:04,600
Speaker 5: so we exposed that when the next guy came in,

515
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,119
Speaker 5: and that just showed that they were all getting together

516
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 5: in the whole way and trying to concoct a case

517
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:12,480
Speaker 5: against Sabrina. So all of that went really well. But

518
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:15,439
Speaker 5: having said that, there were a couple of other things.

519
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,560
Speaker 5: Some of the other witnesses, the neighbors and so forth,

520
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:23,000
Speaker 5: who corroborated what Sabrina said, which was that she'd run

521
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 5: around desperately trying to find people that take her to

522
00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 5: hospital and help her. You know, this just showed the

523
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:32,760
Speaker 5: truth that here was an eighteen year old who was

524
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:36,719
Speaker 5: in a massive panic, as opposed to what the prosecutor

525
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:39,240
Speaker 5: wanted to say that she was some sort of sociopath

526
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:42,920
Speaker 5: who had beaten up a little baby. Then you come

527
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:46,040
Speaker 5: to the verdict, and I've got to say, you know,

528
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:48,679
Speaker 5: capital trials, for me as a lawyer, are the greatest

529
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:52,200
Speaker 5: laxative known to humanity. If you're not nervous when you're

530
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:55,680
Speaker 5: doing those cases, then you just shouldn't be doing them.

531
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:59,640
Speaker 5: And I'm not going to admit to my knees knocking

532
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 5: all the probably well, I was trying to hold Sabrina

533
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:02,720
Speaker 5: out there.

534
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 3: Oh man, Clive now, I mean when we had to

535
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 3: stand before the judge, my legs felt like spaghetti noodles

536
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:11,200
Speaker 3: and Clive now was holding me on either side. And

537
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:13,800
Speaker 3: I when the when the judge came back with that

538
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:18,119
Speaker 3: oh not guilty verdict, I just felt because I I

539
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:21,159
Speaker 3: was like, finally this is over, and I'm you know,

540
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 3: thinking that it's you know, it's okay, I'm free, but

541
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:27,920
Speaker 3: you know that wasn't the whole thing. I wasn't. I'm

542
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 3: still not free. I'm still working through that because after

543
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:33,760
Speaker 3: I got out and I got a chance to see

544
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:35,840
Speaker 3: my oldest son, I had to fight four more years

545
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 3: to get him back. And then my daughter, who is

546
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 3: seventeen years old, has the same exact disease my son

547
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:45,600
Speaker 3: died from so and it was polycistic kidney disease, and

548
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:48,720
Speaker 3: both of her kidney's are bad and they're saying that

549
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 3: she will lose both and there's no cure. So it's

550
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:54,880
Speaker 3: the same thing. I'm fighting, the same, the same thing

551
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:56,080
Speaker 3: every day.

552
00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 6: It's hard because I've already lost one.

553
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:17,959
Speaker 5: The reason I consider my profession such a privilege is

554
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 5: there is no greater privilege, I think, than being able

555
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 5: to help just give someone like Sabrina her life back.

556
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 5: It's a fantastic thing to be blessed and be able

557
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 5: to do.

558
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 1: It would be great if we didn't have to do

559
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:34,920
Speaker 1: these things, but those of us who work in this

560
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 1: field movement, I couldn't have said it better myself. I mean,

561
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 1: the happiest moments of my life putting my kids in

562
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:44,160
Speaker 1: a separate category because that is a separate category.

563
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 5: Well, it's true, but let me say this, Well, I've

564
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 5: got to you. I mean, I'm really grateful for you

565
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 5: doing what you're doing. And let's just get a commitment

566
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:54,480
Speaker 5: on the air while we're here that you're going to

567
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:56,440
Speaker 5: carry on doing it for the next fifty years.

568
00:29:58,000 --> 00:29:58,480
Speaker 2: What age?

569
00:29:58,480 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 5: I'm not sure.

570
00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, you will, I will, I can't stop, won't stop,

571
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 1: not gonna stop. And just getting to now all the

572
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:09,880
Speaker 1: amazing things that Sabrina is doing. Not to spoil the surprise,

573
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 1: but Sabrina has been a tremendous advocate for change for

574
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:15,160
Speaker 1: almost a quarter century.

575
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 3: Now, if you go to Witness to Innocence dot org,

576
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 3: we are deathrow survivors. And if you go to that

577
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:24,480
Speaker 3: website then you can get me and several others any

578
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 3: other speaker that you might like to come and speak

579
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 3: for you.

580
00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 2: Right.

581
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:31,920
Speaker 1: That's Witness to Innocence dot org. Witness to Innocence dot org,

582
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:33,760
Speaker 1: and you can find Sabrina there as well as so

583
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 1: many other extraordinary people who I'm very fortunate to call

584
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 1: my friends and who I'm proud to work together in

585
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:43,760
Speaker 1: this fight to abolish the death penalty. And before we

586
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:46,120
Speaker 1: get to closing arguments. One thing I did want to

587
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:48,160
Speaker 1: ask you, Clive, is I would like you to talk

588
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:51,560
Speaker 1: about what people should look for if they're on a jury,

589
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:55,959
Speaker 1: and how to make our listeners be the best jurors

590
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 1: that they can be.

591
00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:01,240
Speaker 5: There are several things you should bear in mind. The

592
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 5: first is what does it really mean to be sure

593
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:09,720
Speaker 5: beyond a reasonable doubt? And I'm pretty horrified when I

594
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:13,240
Speaker 5: ask judges about that because when I've asked judges to

595
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 5: put a number on it, the average judge, both in

596
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 5: America and in Britain, and I've done this many times,

597
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:24,440
Speaker 5: that has averaged out at eighty three percent sure. That

598
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:27,560
Speaker 5: means they're aiming to be wrong one time in six

599
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 5: and with six million Americans in the judicial system, the

600
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:36,560
Speaker 5: judges are aiming to put a million innocent people into

601
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 5: prison when they take that as their standard. And as

602
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:41,320
Speaker 5: Robin Hurd will teach you, if you aim low, you miss.

603
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 5: And the other thing to think about as a jura

604
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:47,000
Speaker 5: is there are twelve of you, but there's only one

605
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:50,280
Speaker 5: of you, and the one of you is the person

606
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:54,440
Speaker 5: who has responsibility for what you do. So very often

607
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 5: there's this sort of herd mentality where everyone wants to agree,

608
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:00,600
Speaker 5: but you're not responsible for what those other people do,

609
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 5: and as an individual juror, you have the right from

610
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:08,719
Speaker 5: beginning to end to say, respectfully, I just disagree. And

611
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 5: one of the things we never tell jurors is how

612
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:15,680
Speaker 5: they can disagree, so they're never told that. At any moment,

613
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 5: you as a juror, can send a note out to

614
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 5: the judge saying, well, you know, don't really matter what

615
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 5: these other e loving people are doing. I'm telling you

616
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 5: we're not no agree because I think that this person

617
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 5: is not guilty and you always have that right, and

618
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:31,920
Speaker 5: people try to bully you into not doing that.

619
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:34,760
Speaker 2: Well said, and I'm glad you brought that up.

620
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:37,560
Speaker 1: That's actually a new point I think for a lot

621
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 1: of our listeners, and it's super important for everyone to know.

622
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:43,440
Speaker 2: That if you're on a jury, you have that right.

623
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:47,000
Speaker 1: You can just basically say, hey, this is going to

624
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 1: end in a hung jury or an acquittal because I'm

625
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:53,760
Speaker 1: not voting guilty. And if that's how you feel, don't

626
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 1: be bullied. I've heard too many stories, as you have,

627
00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 1: people who finally just got tired and they wanted to

628
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 1: go home and they threw somebody life away literally because

629
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 1: of pure pressure.

630
00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 5: And it's also because no one told them that is

631
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:11,400
Speaker 5: you're right. No one told them that you can say

632
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:15,200
Speaker 5: enough is enough now? And I think that's just very

633
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:17,080
Speaker 5: unfair on jurist that we don't say that.

634
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 2: No. I think a lot of jurors also aren't told that.

635
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:22,000
Speaker 1: Actually therefore is the only one that really matters because

636
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 1: we have to have unanimous jury verdicts in this country. Okay,

637
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 1: so now comes the featured part of our show, where

638
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 1: I thank both of you profusely for coming in and well,

639
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:37,240
Speaker 1: Sabrina for you sharing your story and your remarkable journey.

640
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:41,040
Speaker 1: And Clive, of course, thank you for calling in and

641
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 1: for all the amazing work that you've been doing.

642
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 2: And so now in.

643
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:47,560
Speaker 1: Order because we save the best for last, with all

644
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:50,440
Speaker 1: due respect to you, sir Clive, we're going to save

645
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:51,480
Speaker 1: Sabrina for last.

646
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:55,040
Speaker 5: All right, very good? I will. I've been doing death

647
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 5: penalty work since I was about twenty, which is a

648
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:01,200
Speaker 5: long long time ago, and I do it because of

649
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:03,960
Speaker 5: what my mother said to me, which is, there's no

650
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:07,000
Speaker 5: point you having a law degree if you don't look

651
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:11,160
Speaker 5: at the people that we as a society most hate,

652
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:14,720
Speaker 5: and you get between them and the people doing the hating.

653
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:17,520
Speaker 5: And you know, when you think about the death penalty,

654
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:23,200
Speaker 5: it's extraordinary in theory, but in practice, when that jury

655
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:27,399
Speaker 5: and that judge came back to say to Sabrina, who

656
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:30,319
Speaker 5: I count as a dear friend and I count as

657
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:34,200
Speaker 5: a very valuable human being, when they came back and

658
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:38,920
Speaker 5: said to her that we are going to take your

659
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:43,080
Speaker 5: life away. We're going to sacrifice you on the altar

660
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:48,680
Speaker 5: to some mythological god of deterrence because we're going to

661
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:54,440
Speaker 5: do that to pretend that we're doing something meaningful about crime.

662
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:57,440
Speaker 5: That's just terrific to me. I've watched six of my

663
00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:02,000
Speaker 5: clients die in the electric, the gas chamber, and the

664
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:04,360
Speaker 5: leafl injection gurny, and it's always in the middle of

665
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:06,839
Speaker 5: the night for whatever reason, and it's because I think

666
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 5: we're deeply ashamed of what we're doing. And each time

667
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:14,160
Speaker 5: I have come out of the death chamber and I've

668
00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:18,560
Speaker 5: looked up at the stars above and I've thought to myself,

669
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:24,000
Speaker 5: my God, did that really make the world a better place?

670
00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 5: And you know, the bottom line is it sure didn't.

671
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:31,720
Speaker 5: And I'm so glad that in Sabrina's case, not only

672
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:35,000
Speaker 5: did she not end up on the leafl injection gurney.

673
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:38,360
Speaker 5: But she ended up getting her life back and making

674
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:41,839
Speaker 5: so much of it, and that's just a wonderful, wonderful thing.

675
00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:43,359
Speaker 2: Sabrina Well.

676
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:45,840
Speaker 3: I basically want to say that the journey was not easy.

677
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:48,800
Speaker 3: I had to do a lot of growing up going

678
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:54,400
Speaker 3: through this trial and tragedy of losing my son. Today

679
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 3: I still fight the state of Mississippi where my son

680
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:00,560
Speaker 3: is buried. It took me two years to find him.

681
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:04,200
Speaker 3: When I did find him, he was buried on a

682
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:08,120
Speaker 3: dark gravel road in the woods, on a hill, under

683
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:13,080
Speaker 3: a tree, no marker except the little bitty marker that

684
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:16,640
Speaker 3: they have. I am trying to fight them because I

685
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:20,120
Speaker 3: found out that the death certificate still says today that

686
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:23,480
Speaker 3: he was murdered. Okay, So when I found that out,

687
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:28,360
Speaker 3: that was another blow to me as a person, because

688
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:31,080
Speaker 3: I'm trying to say, you still have this out here.

689
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:36,200
Speaker 3: I was found not guilty. The system of Mississippi paid

690
00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:39,279
Speaker 3: me for wrongful conviction what they thought it was worth,

691
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:42,839
Speaker 3: but you still are convicting me in some sort of way.

692
00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:45,640
Speaker 3: How could I ever be a nurse or doctor anything

693
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:50,319
Speaker 3: with death certificate that stated that. So the attorney is

694
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:52,719
Speaker 3: now working in the process of trying to get the

695
00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:56,840
Speaker 3: State Examiner's office to change the death certificate in itself.

696
00:36:57,360 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 3: They refused to do that, so now we have to

697
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:02,520
Speaker 3: go to That is another battle that I am currently

698
00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:05,400
Speaker 3: in the process of trying to do. I said that

699
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:08,800
Speaker 3: in a sense to say that we are all human beings,

700
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:11,440
Speaker 3: we do not have the right as each individual to

701
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:15,680
Speaker 3: take a person's redemptive period. That's my belief. I feel

702
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:19,279
Speaker 3: that as long as God has me here, I am

703
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:21,799
Speaker 3: going to fight till I can't fight anymore, because that's

704
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:24,680
Speaker 3: what I'm here for. I feel like I can go

705
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:26,719
Speaker 3: all over the world and talk about this case until

706
00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:29,640
Speaker 3: I'm blue in the face. If it changed one mind,

707
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:32,560
Speaker 3: one heart, then I feel like I'm doing my job.

708
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:35,800
Speaker 3: And I just thank God and for all the people

709
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:38,279
Speaker 3: that were involved in my case that he gave me

710
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 3: a second chance to try to help someone else. And

711
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:44,040
Speaker 3: that's what I'm here for.

712
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:53,239
Speaker 4: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you

713
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:54,399
Speaker 4: get your podcasts.

714
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:55,560
Speaker 2: It really helps.

715
00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:58,640
Speaker 1: And I'm a proud donor to the Nisis Project, and

716
00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:01,439
Speaker 1: I really hope you'll join me and supporting this very

717
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:05,440
Speaker 1: important cause and helping to prevent future Wrongful Convictions. Go

718
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:08,520
Speaker 1: to innisonsproject dot org to learn how to donate and

719
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:11,760
Speaker 1: get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor

720
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:14,480
Speaker 1: Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in the show is

721
00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:18,000
Speaker 1: by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure

722
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 1: to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on

723
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 1: Facebook at.

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00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:23,560
Speaker 2: Wrongful Conviction Podcast.

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00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:27,000
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava

726
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:36,720
Speaker 1: for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one