Speaker 1: This crowd rises to itspeing, what Carl slam it out?
Speaker 1: Carl left wing free ball perfect?
Speaker 2: Then he left block the shot at the rim? How
Speaker 2: with the left hand and a fowl.
Speaker 3: Welcome the Chase Doown Podcast, part of the Caves media family.
Speaker 3: I'm your host, Justin Rowan. The Chase Doown is presented
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Speaker 3: slash Calves. Well, we have allowed for some time for
Speaker 3: the season to marinate, for us to process our thoughts,
Speaker 3: to get our minds right, to talk about the Caves
Speaker 3: for the rest of the off season. And I feel refreshed.
Speaker 3: I feel ready to be back at it, and I
Speaker 3: am glad to be joined by my co host, Carter Rodriguez.
Speaker 2: Carter, how you doing, buddy?
Speaker 1: Uh? Not feeling that refreshed after a week of travel
Speaker 1: and another week of travel incoming, but nevertheless, I have
Speaker 1: gone through my morning process. I have a lot of
Speaker 1: you know, been just marinate and on the season that
Speaker 1: was definitely I'm excited to talk about it.
Speaker 3: You know, you might still be processing. You had a
Speaker 3: busy week, you didn't win an Emmy, but you know,
Speaker 3: and I still think I still think being nominated as
Speaker 3: cool as hell.
Speaker 2: But we do have some awards for.
Speaker 3: The Cleveland Cavaliers that came down the pipeline, Donovan Mitchell with.
Speaker 1: Someone's got to win some let me tell you.
Speaker 3: Donovan Mitchell won first Team All NBA. No surprise there.
Speaker 3: Evan Mobley is officially an All NBA player with a
Speaker 3: second team win for him. Darius Garland did not make
Speaker 3: the cut, but he was nineteenth in All NBA voting,
Speaker 3: so you know, kind of officially in that top twenty
Speaker 3: for All NBA voting.
Speaker 2: Really impressive stuff.
Speaker 3: No surprise there, but it still is nice to see,
Speaker 3: you know, after we're sitting there the season is over,
Speaker 3: just a reminder of how good these guys were for
Speaker 3: the year.
Speaker 1: Do you think you a trophy for All NBA? That
Speaker 1: feels like a plaque? That's a plaque, that's definitely I
Speaker 1: just got a feeling. Yeah, that feels like more of
Speaker 1: a as a plaque a trophy.
Speaker 4: You know, who's to.
Speaker 3: Say it depends It depends on how badly you need
Speaker 3: to claim that you have a trophy. In my opinion,
Speaker 3: I've got some plaques. I've got some trophies. I'm more
Speaker 3: proud of the plaques, so I'm going to count them
Speaker 3: as a trophy. In addition to them having those awards announced,
Speaker 3: we did get Kobe Altman's end of season press conference.
Speaker 3: I always find those to be very helpful. It feels
Speaker 3: like a couple of years in a row where Kobe
Speaker 3: has come out and said something and the media has
Speaker 3: gone I don't really believe him. I don't know if
Speaker 3: this is going to be how it plays out, and
Speaker 3: then he does exactly what he said. So I think
Speaker 3: some of the highlights when you look at that end
Speaker 3: of season address was kind of what we expected, which
Speaker 3: is he anticipates that the core four is going to remain,
Speaker 3: the team is comfortable with their position going into the
Speaker 3: second apron if they need to have the backing from
Speaker 3: ownership to do that, which you know we expected. I
Speaker 3: think the realities of Evan Mobley getting both Defensive Player
Speaker 3: of the Year and All NBA was going to make
Speaker 3: it nearly impossible to do some of the creative accounting
Speaker 3: to get under that apron. But the nice thing is
Speaker 3: those are fixed contracts. If you are someone that looks
Speaker 3: ahead to kind of those team charts as the league
Speaker 3: salary cap increases these next couple of years, getting back
Speaker 3: under after a couple of seasons might be more feasible.
Speaker 3: But I think the reality is that the Cavs are
Speaker 3: going to be a second Apron team heading into the
Speaker 3: new league year.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think you're spot on kind of calling
Speaker 1: out that, you know, everyone thinks Kobe's playing like five
Speaker 1: D chess with these pressers, And I do think this
Speaker 1: team has kind of been for the you know, it's
Speaker 1: it's been interesting seeing their development over the years because
Speaker 1: early on they were like the curveball team, the whoa
Speaker 1: they train for Andre Drummond, whoa they traded for Jared
Speaker 1: Jared Allen, like you know, all the you know, even
Speaker 1: the woe they traded for Donovan Mitchell or Larie Markinen,
Speaker 1: Like these all these transactions were things we had no
Speaker 1: idea were coming. So I feel like they kind of
Speaker 1: have the reputation as a wilder front office than they've
Speaker 1: operated as the last three years. Like all they've done
Speaker 1: is exactly what they told you they were going to
Speaker 1: do that. You leave the next series saying, hey, we
Speaker 1: need shooting. Shootings are number one thing. They go signed
Speaker 1: Struice and the Yang. They leave last year saying we
Speaker 1: think we were just banged up. Sums heart two years
Speaker 1: ago now sucks. That's not last year. Uh two years
Speaker 1: ago now, and they say, ah, we're banged up. We
Speaker 1: really believe in this group. We're going to go find
Speaker 1: a coach that believes in this group. And then they
Speaker 1: ran it back literally, you know, and brought in a
Speaker 1: new coach. So they did exactly what they say they
Speaker 1: were going to do. So it does ten just you know,
Speaker 1: stand a reason that they're gonna do this. Even like
Speaker 1: the DeAndre Hunter acquisition mid season, if you're paying close attention,
Speaker 1: you could see the science that wasn't like a whoa,
Speaker 1: they're gonna target a big wing like DeAndre Hunter.
Speaker 3: Honestly, it was very similar to Karslavert, right, Like we
Speaker 3: got like two months of lead up of hey, they're
Speaker 3: probably going to target krosel Avert because they're down calling
Speaker 3: sex and they're down Ricky Rubial and this team desperately
Speaker 3: needs both a scorer and a ball handler, and he's
Speaker 3: not the same scorer as Calling Sexton. He's not the
Speaker 3: same ball handler as Ricky Rubial, but he's kind of
Speaker 3: that fact like he's going to be able to split
Speaker 3: the difference a little bit there. So, you know, heading
Speaker 3: into this offseason with the realities of being a second
Speaker 3: Apron team, I think it's important for people to understand
Speaker 3: you are not able to aggregate salaries in a trade.
Speaker 3: You are not able to combine two players in a
Speaker 3: deal to trade for one unless that trade is going
Speaker 3: to get you under the second Apron at the end
Speaker 3: of that transaction. The realities is I don't think that
Speaker 3: the As are looking to combine multiple high salary players
Speaker 3: for a low salary player to cut costs. I think
Speaker 3: that the Cavs are probably motivated to become a better team,
Speaker 3: and from my standpoint, I'm open to ideas. I am
Speaker 3: open to whatever, you know, team building things that the
Speaker 3: team is able to find. But I do think the
Speaker 3: realities of, you know, really only being in a position
Speaker 3: to do those kind of one for one swaps makes
Speaker 3: me feel like the opportunities to make this team better
Speaker 3: do not involve trading the core four players. Because we
Speaker 3: know Evan Mobley is going to be back. We know
Speaker 3: Donovan Mitchell is going to be back. Those guys are
Speaker 3: all NBA players and they are awesome.
Speaker 2: Why would you not want them back?
Speaker 3: Then you look at Darius Garland and Jared Allen, I
Speaker 3: would certainly, you know, Darius be nineteenth in all NBA
Speaker 3: voting him being an All Star and also being on
Speaker 3: a very affordable contract. I can't see a one for
Speaker 3: one swap where the team gets better. Zach lowisurizing, Hey,
Speaker 3: you know, if they want to cut some salary, the
Speaker 3: Orlando Magic should be desperate to trade Jalen Suggs and
Speaker 3: a ton of assets to go get Darius Garland. One,
Speaker 3: if you are the team that is being targeted by
Speaker 3: a desperate team trying to get better, you're not getting
Speaker 3: better in that transaction. And then two, Lowe was sitting
Speaker 3: there being like, oh, that's not really a discount because
Speaker 3: Darius having signed the contract years ago before the salary
Speaker 3: cap inflated. The types of players that you see at
Speaker 3: that point are role players. They are you know, you're
Speaker 3: Jalen Suggs, who's a very high end role player, Drew Holliday,
Speaker 3: who's an aging vet you know on the way down,
Speaker 3: Like I just don't think that there's a lot of
Speaker 3: opportunities to get better in these one for one swaps.
Speaker 3: So I am perfectly comfortable if something were to materialize
Speaker 3: where that's the case, but just looking at it realistically,
Speaker 3: looking at spotrack to try to figure out, okay, well,
Speaker 3: what's even out there. I think the safe bet is
Speaker 3: what we heard Kobe Altman say, which is the core
Speaker 3: four players are still going to be back.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it just kind of tracks as such. I mean,
Speaker 1: Jared Allen is the guy who kind of gets thrown
Speaker 1: around the most, and I get it.
Speaker 4: He ended the.
Speaker 1: Series very, very poorly, as did many players. He is
Speaker 1: the fifth highest paid guy on the team per spot track.
Speaker 4: You know, like.
Speaker 1: Those you know, if you're looking to get a star
Speaker 1: back in a one for one deal, Like I mean,
Speaker 1: it gets pretty complicated pretty quick to try to get there.
Speaker 4: You know, uh uh.
Speaker 1: There are some interesting constructs or you know, some interesting
Speaker 1: things that you can look at, but like at the
Speaker 1: end of the day, it's just a little too complicated
Speaker 1: to make a change trait like that. And I do
Speaker 1: kind of expect the starters to be back at this
Speaker 1: point or you know, the the really the top six
Speaker 1: of the and.
Speaker 3: I expect, yeah, we might not know who the starters are. Like,
Speaker 3: I still think that, you know, there's a case for
Speaker 3: DeAndre Hunter to be the starting small forward. It's something
Speaker 3: that I'd like to see at some point, but we'll
Speaker 3: get into.
Speaker 2: Kind of what would need to occur for that.
Speaker 3: But I do think my anticipation is that the top
Speaker 3: six is going to be back. And you know, I
Speaker 3: tweeted this out last week as I was kind of
Speaker 3: going through my thoughts and whatnot, where people will talk about,
Speaker 3: you know, moving Darius for you know, a role player
Speaker 3: or two, like, let's try to get a wing player.
Speaker 2: Let's try to do this one.
Speaker 3: Having seen what the load on Donovan Mitchell's body is
Speaker 3: when Darius is out of the lineup and how that
Speaker 3: affects his play, I think it's just so clear those
Speaker 3: two guards make each other better and two for if
Speaker 3: our goal is to keep Donovan Mitchell healthy and you
Speaker 3: know productive when we need him, increasing the load on
Speaker 3: him is not something that I am rushing out to do.
Speaker 3: And the other thing is, you know, people talk about
Speaker 3: small backcourts and how few examples they are there are
Speaker 3: in NBA history of those types of teams winning at
Speaker 3: Championship one. I think that's valid. It's part of why
Speaker 3: we have said Evan Mobley needs to be that guy
Speaker 3: for the cast if they're going to get over the mountaintop.
Speaker 3: But as few examples as there are of that, you know,
Speaker 3: Steph Curry and Jordan Poole, I think would probably be
Speaker 3: the most recent one. As few examples of that there
Speaker 3: are of that, there are zero examples if you look
Speaker 3: at the last thirty forty years where a team has
Speaker 3: traded a current All Star for a role.
Speaker 2: Player and that was the move that got them over
Speaker 2: the hump.
Speaker 3: I defy you to find a single example of that
Speaker 3: where you know, someone coming off an All Star season
Speaker 3: was traded for a role player and that's what made
Speaker 3: them better. That's one of those things that sounds good
Speaker 3: on paper, it just doesn't make any sense.
Speaker 2: It has not occurred. It is nonsense.
Speaker 3: So from from that standpoint, I think, you know, people
Speaker 3: are going to find their scapegoats. I subscribe to, you know,
Speaker 3: the thinking that what happened against the Pacers was a
Speaker 3: team wide failure, right like everybody had something that they
Speaker 3: could have done better in these instances to change that result.
Speaker 3: Even with the injuries they had. I still believe, even
Speaker 3: with the injuries they had, if they executed better, if
Speaker 3: they show that mental toughness, I think that they could
Speaker 3: have won that series. But you know, I just don't
Speaker 3: think that that is a productive conversation to have. I'm
Speaker 3: open to examples, but I just don't think there are.
Speaker 4: Any No, no, there aren't.
Speaker 1: You know, you're gonna have to get creative, and like
Speaker 1: I do kind of get that argument from those who
Speaker 1: want to see change, like they don't just want to
Speaker 1: hear no, not possible. You know, I do think the
Speaker 1: front office should be, you know, looking creatively as they can,
Speaker 1: trying to do as many unique things as they can.
Speaker 1: And this is a front office that's done a nice
Speaker 1: job of that historically, so you know, you have to
Speaker 1: give them. You know, I'm open to I'm open to
Speaker 1: interesting ideas, you know. I think that's an it's an
Speaker 1: important point to make when you are kind of advocating,
Speaker 1: like I mean, I think we're both generally running back
Speaker 1: advocates here, you know, at least, and that's partly because
Speaker 1: we've looked at what options are a vision. I think
Speaker 1: that's that is the important distinction here, is we're not
Speaker 1: It's not because we don't think things could be better
Speaker 1: and that the team could improve and things like that.
Speaker 1: It's just that we can't find it figure it out.
Speaker 1: And like I do pretty firmly believe, especially like at
Speaker 1: the level of analysis we're at where you know, we're
Speaker 1: literally you know, talking about this team all the time.
Speaker 1: We're not you know, a casual fans watching a couple
Speaker 1: of games a year, like when you're in our seats.
Speaker 1: I do think if you're going to criticize, you have
Speaker 1: to come up with a better idea or a thing
Speaker 1: you believe in more, you know, like, which is why
Speaker 1: you know, like in an on court example, I felt comfortable,
Speaker 1: you know, criticizing the the way the Cavs initiated offense
Speaker 1: because I said, hey, here's three things I would have
Speaker 1: done different, you know. But if I don't got those
Speaker 1: three things I would have done different, I'm just not
Speaker 1: super inclined to, uh, to criticize an action or or
Speaker 1: you know, you'll do something yeah, in any context. So
Speaker 1: like I do think that that is all important context
Speaker 1: to add. I do want to ask you, though, buddy,
Speaker 1: does it matter? Does it change your tune a little bit?
Speaker 1: Seeing that you know Indy's just ripping through New York too,
Speaker 1: in terms of feeling like maybe they like, you know,
Speaker 1: a healthy New York team really doesn't seem to have
Speaker 1: a ton of great solutions for the Spacers team either.
Speaker 1: And I know neither of us were that high on
Speaker 1: this New York team, which I mean, I feel like
Speaker 1: we have to eat a little crow on that too,
Speaker 1: because they did beat Boston a little crow, not a
Speaker 1: lot of crow.
Speaker 3: A little I don't have to do anything I don't
Speaker 3: want to do.
Speaker 1: Oh that's a great point, but like I do, you know,
Speaker 1: part of me does feel like just a little bit like, well,
Speaker 1: you know, you lose the series by like seventeen net points,
Speaker 1: and you know, honestly, I feel better, Like I feel
Speaker 1: feel like percent better.
Speaker 4: That's how I feel.
Speaker 3: What I said at the start of calvs. Pacers when
Speaker 3: we were doing our preview with Tony East, I said,
Speaker 3: I think Indies by far the third best team in
Speaker 3: the East. Like I think they are dramatically better than
Speaker 3: New York. They actually had a winning record against winning teams.
Speaker 3: I don't think the Knicks are that good. I think
Speaker 3: the Knicks were a call away from losing in the
Speaker 3: first round. Jalen Brown playing on a torn meniscus, porzingis
Speaker 3: not being able to breathe, Hateum tearing his achilles, and
Speaker 3: Drew Holiday just being old. Like, you know, even if
Speaker 3: you look at the shooting data, no team played worse
Speaker 3: three point defense than the Knicks against the Celtics. They
Speaker 3: gave up when you look at the wide open and
Speaker 3: open threes, they were giving up forty eight wide open
Speaker 3: threes a game against Boston, Like, sure you know that
Speaker 3: that's I if anybody told you that that's how you
Speaker 3: beat the Boston se Celtics before the series, I want
Speaker 3: to give them a pat on the back. But that's
Speaker 3: not how you do it. And I think you've seen
Speaker 3: that in this series against Indiana, where you know a
Speaker 3: healthy Pacers team is going to pick apart your weaknesses defensively.
Speaker 3: And I laugh at Nate Jones tweeting out the other day,
Speaker 3: I just think the Knicks need to add another big wing.
Speaker 4: That was some good work out of you.
Speaker 3: Like, honestly, when people talk about adding wings, the apex
Speaker 3: examples of three and D wings that you find in
Speaker 3: the NBA that are below the All star level, or
Speaker 3: Ojan Andobia and mckil bridges.
Speaker 2: They have both of them, and that.
Speaker 3: Lineup is giving up a one forty eight defensive rating
Speaker 3: against the Indiana Pacers. Know what the Calves starting lineup
Speaker 3: gave up as a defensive rating against the Pacers one
Speaker 3: oh seven, Like you know it's It's the example everyone
Speaker 3: goes to because big wings are the most valuable thing
Speaker 3: that you have in the NBA. From a Calves standpoint,
Speaker 3: I would love to have a big playmaking wing. That's
Speaker 3: why last offseason, when you know the ideas of trading
Speaker 3: uh like a Jared Allen trade for someone like Brandon Ingram,
Speaker 3: It's risky, but I was open to the idea because
Speaker 3: he's a big playmaking wing. Those are so hard to find.
Speaker 3: From a Calves standpoint, and really from any NBA team standpoint,
Speaker 3: the goal when it comes to team building is find
Speaker 3: the best talent that is available to you that you
Speaker 3: can actually go out of acquire, that you believe fits
Speaker 3: together in a way that allows them to be better
Speaker 3: than the su of their parts. And I think that
Speaker 3: the Cavs have done a really good job finding the
Speaker 3: best talent.
Speaker 2: That's available to them.
Speaker 3: I still think getting over the hump is going to
Speaker 3: require them doing some soul searching and finding ways to
Speaker 3: be better than the some of their parts.
Speaker 1: And you know why, I know you're right about this
Speaker 1: because I watched the Indiana Pacers play Tony Bradley for
Speaker 1: fifteen minutes last night, a guy who couldn't play for
Speaker 1: the Utah.
Speaker 4: Jazz two years ago.
Speaker 1: Like basketball is just not I mean, yes, talent acquisition
Speaker 1: is part of it, but so much it is about
Speaker 1: the cultural the culture you build, the system you run,
Speaker 1: and the way your stars empower everyone to do their
Speaker 1: to make their jobs easier. I always go back, I'm
Speaker 1: sorry to interrupt you on this, No, I always go
Speaker 1: back to what I was saying mid season after they
Speaker 1: acquired DeAndre Hunter and he fit in so seamlessly, was
Speaker 1: it's easy to play Cavaliers basketball right now, Like if
Speaker 1: you're good, if you're good at something, it'll look great
Speaker 1: on that Cavs team in February and March. And you know,
Speaker 1: the biggest thing that has happened in almost all these
Speaker 1: playoff series so far is that it stops looking easy
Speaker 1: and fun to play Cavaliers basketball. And to be very reductionist,
Speaker 1: I always love our boy Ben Cox, who is a believer,
Speaker 1: who is who is a great listen to the pod
Speaker 1: and also wishing all the health to Ben. He always
Speaker 1: tweets it. Every time things get muddy, he always tweets
Speaker 1: they lose because of their often like like and it's
Speaker 1: so much of it is that identity. Is that maintaining
Speaker 1: of putting pressure on the on defense, Like that's what
Speaker 1: you need to do at the end of the day.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I totally agree.
Speaker 3: And I think, you know, from a team building standpoint too, right,
Speaker 3: like we use the core for a shorthand. I do
Speaker 3: think that it's important to kind of make a distinction. Like, wait,
Speaker 3: when I'm thinking about who the most important members of
Speaker 3: the Cavs are, there are two that earned all NBA
Speaker 3: honors and one that was just on the fringe that
Speaker 3: were All Stars, right, Like I think that Garland, Mitchell
Speaker 3: and Mobili that's just it's a half tier above, right.
Speaker 3: And Garland and Mobley in particular, they're still young, they're
Speaker 3: not even in their primes yet, right, Like Garland's twenty five,
Speaker 3: He's starting to get to that point of physical maturity.
Speaker 3: Mobley's a couple of years away. But the realities of
Speaker 3: you know, the situation that they're in is I just
Speaker 3: don't think that there's a one for one trade for
Speaker 3: Jared Allen. Like, Jared, you look like next year's salary
Speaker 3: sheets on sports track. He's their fifth highest plane player
Speaker 3: on the team. Like, it's really hard to find a
Speaker 3: one for one swap that's making the cast better. So
Speaker 3: I think when I look at how the cast can
Speaker 3: get over the hump, right, we understand the internal development parts.
Speaker 3: I think we're going to get into kind of some
Speaker 3: of those mental toughness aspects, the maturity that needs to
Speaker 3: come from this team what they need to do. But
Speaker 3: from a you know, roster building standpoint, I'm assuming that
Speaker 3: the top six will be back, and the question needs
Speaker 3: to be, with limited ability to shake up what the
Speaker 3: rotation is, how can we change the way it feels
Speaker 3: to play against the Cleveland Cavaliers. And I think that
Speaker 3: that question is what needs to be answered when you
Speaker 3: look at guys you know, seven through ten in the rotation,
Speaker 3: that needs to be the in my opinion, that's the
Speaker 3: question that the front office needs to ask themselves is
Speaker 3: how do we change either from a schematic standpoint, from
Speaker 3: a rotation standpoint, from a person now own standpoint, from
Speaker 3: an execution standpoint, what can we do to enhance what
Speaker 3: our strengths are and make it feel different to play
Speaker 3: against the Calves.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's spot on. They just have to get better.
Speaker 1: And that's why I'm so glad that Kobe really hit
Speaker 1: on mental toughness as the sighted leap and mental toughness
Speaker 1: being the more important distinction than physical toughness. Yes, you know, uh,
Speaker 1: I think that is something that is you know, you
Speaker 1: you've made all the all the excellent points that Calvs won,
Speaker 1: most of the physical indicators, physical markers from that series
Speaker 1: against Cindy. They wanted the offensive rebound battle, they won
Speaker 1: in the paint, they wanted the free throw line. You know,
Speaker 1: do you want some stats that kind of back up
Speaker 1: that point, because go ahead, you know, I do think,
Speaker 1: you know, I understand people here during toughness as one
Speaker 1: of the main takeaways, right Kobe said, A Donovan SAIDA
Speaker 1: Darius said it like it's been the common refrain. I
Speaker 1: do think that there's a distinction. Like to me, what
Speaker 1: they are talking about when I hear them, you know,
Speaker 1: go in depth is mental toughness, it's maturity.
Speaker 3: And I think maturity is the word that I would
Speaker 3: use in that instance. But I understand, you know, they
Speaker 3: feel frustrated in the moment.
Speaker 2: I get it.
Speaker 3: But people saying, you know, it's the same thing all
Speaker 3: over again, it just isn't founded in reality. This is
Speaker 3: not the same as two years ago in against the Knicks.
Speaker 3: Actually it kind of is a little similar to two
Speaker 3: years ago against the Knicks because the New York Knicks
Speaker 3: in the five game series against the Calves from an
Speaker 3: offensive rebound standpoint, they won seventy five to forty six.
Speaker 3: That is a plus twenty nine advantage on the offensive glass.
Speaker 3: The Calves versus the Pacers, the Calves had seventy offensive rebounds,
Speaker 3: the Pacers had thirty five. That's a thirty five offensive
Speaker 3: rebound advantage. The Calves beat up the Pacers on the
Speaker 3: offensive glass by a larger margin than they did against
Speaker 3: the Knicks did against them two years ago. Do you
Speaker 3: want to talk points in the paint? The Calves outscored
Speaker 3: the Indiana Pacers two sixty two to two thirty six.
Speaker 3: That is a twenty six point advantage and points in
Speaker 3: the paint. The Knicks versus the Calves had a sixteen
Speaker 3: point advantage. They beat up the Indiana Pacers by more
Speaker 3: points in the paint by a larger margin than they
Speaker 3: did against the Knicks. So that's offensive rebounds and points
Speaker 3: in the paint. And I personally am like, I was
Speaker 3: disappointed with how Jared played in Games four and five,
Speaker 3: But people focusing on rebounds because it's like, you know,
Speaker 3: the gotchas Dad, That's not where the Calves lost the game.
Speaker 3: That's not where Jared disappointed me with his performance. To
Speaker 3: say it's the same thing as the Knicks is nonsense,
Speaker 3: especially for a guy in Jared Allen that averaged seventeen
Speaker 3: and fourteen against a much larger, more physical Orlando Magic
Speaker 3: team last year before a broken rib. It's nonsense. It's
Speaker 3: important to make these distinctions so you don't sound like
Speaker 3: a lunatic when you're making these points because the facts
Speaker 3: do not line up up with what you're saying.
Speaker 1: Yeah, by the way, all those Knicks to Pacers stats
Speaker 1: are funny because not only are they good on their own,
Speaker 1: it's really hard to do that in a series in
Speaker 1: you know, to win those stats in a series you lost,
Speaker 1: you know, like to show me where the three point
Speaker 1: shooting went? Yeah, no, kids, And also how close.
Speaker 3: Some of those games were, right, like the Knicks Honestly,
Speaker 3: the Knicks made me feel better because they blew a
Speaker 3: larger lead in the last minute than the Calves did
Speaker 3: and it wasn't too bs lane violations that the NBA
Speaker 3: had to issue an apology the next day. Over that
Speaker 3: was a healthy team blowing a larger lead without two
Speaker 3: blown calls that if either of those calls went the
Speaker 3: other way, it would have been a Calves went So
Speaker 3: that that to me made me feel just a little
Speaker 3: bit better.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So, I mean, here's you know, so they did win
Speaker 1: most of those physical markers that you know, we count
Speaker 1: towards physicality. I do think, in the ent of being
Speaker 1: a fair and honest evaluator that there there is physicality
Speaker 1: that doesn't show up in the stats. That it was
Speaker 1: on the perimeter that still does a good job of
Speaker 1: making the Cavaliers play another style of basketball. And I
Speaker 1: just think under that duress, uh, the the Calves, especially
Speaker 1: their perimeter players, lose he you know, this is where
Speaker 1: the mental toughness comes in. Have just lost faith in
Speaker 1: what they're What got them there, it was.
Speaker 3: It was on the perimeter, right like, and you know,
Speaker 3: maybe my rant was more almost Jarrett specific and kind
Speaker 3: of you know, they just get beat up kind of thing.
Speaker 3: But yeah, it was on the perimeter and no one
Speaker 3: because I do think we need to get into that
Speaker 3: and I want to discuss it. But just one thing
Speaker 3: I wanted to note that's just a little bit frustrating
Speaker 3: to me. And I don't think that there's any agenda
Speaker 3: behind this kind of stuff. I just think it's an
Speaker 3: inconsistency thing that bothers me. Even if you look at
Speaker 3: how you know, each of these conference finals has been officiated.
Speaker 3: Game three, walls were allowed a lot more physicality, they
Speaker 3: were allowed to play a different way. I would like
Speaker 3: to see a more consistent standard of what is what
Speaker 3: because Indie playing New York, they're not able to play
Speaker 3: Ben Mathrin. Ben Mathrom is a defensive liability, and in
Speaker 3: Game one, when he tried to even breathe on Jalen Brunson,
Speaker 3: it's called immediately. Whereas COV's players are in mid air
Speaker 3: and he's two hands shoving them and it's not even
Speaker 3: a foul. Forget a flagrant. Jada McDaniels pushes shay Gilles
Speaker 3: Alexander from behind while he is drilling a basketball still
Speaker 3: planted on the ground, and it's a flagrant it's a
Speaker 3: big deal. It's talked about Obi Top and shoves Donovan
Speaker 3: Mitchell with two hands in mid air, and it's not
Speaker 3: a flagrant, Like, you know, he's an All NBA player,
Speaker 3: you expect him to be protected in the same kind
Speaker 3: of way. But it's just frustrating that, you know, what
Speaker 3: is considered a foul, what is considered appropriate physicality varies
Speaker 3: from game to game and series to series, and it's
Speaker 3: just frustrating to see someone like Mathern, who does struggle
Speaker 3: on defense, be allowed to to gooon out in the
Speaker 3: answer as well, you guys got to get tougher when
Speaker 3: you're in mid air, whereas the next series he's not
Speaker 3: even allowed to breathe on Jalen Brunson.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that's all true, but also.
Speaker 3: It's a better gripe from a Homer fan. It's what
Speaker 3: it is, but I need to get it off that.
Speaker 1: I just think it kind of tends to be. You know,
Speaker 1: I think some of it you do buy by being
Speaker 1: the one who is initiating, you know, and and and
Speaker 1: by you know again hitting first, Like we weren't sitting
Speaker 1: here talking about Miami getting away with excess physicality against
Speaker 1: the Calves because the calves were too busy, either blown
Speaker 1: by him in the first place, or or you.
Speaker 3: Know, anything of them one on the inside.
Speaker 4: Yep.
Speaker 1: So like you know, some of that stuff is I
Speaker 1: under stand that impulse, but like I do think we
Speaker 1: need to challenge it because like it's not gonna go
Speaker 1: away either, you know, like I was for the most part,
Speaker 1: it was just yes, yes, there were a couple of
Speaker 1: players I thought were really dirty, but the macro strategy
Speaker 1: is not going to stop against this team. Like they've
Speaker 1: got two small guards who excel when they have freedom
Speaker 1: of movement. Like, uh, like, that's not gonna that's not
Speaker 1: gonna stop there. Teams are gonna grab, they're gonna pull,
Speaker 1: they're gonna bump, they're gonna they're gonna which is a
Speaker 1: fair which is all fair play to me, And it's
Speaker 1: exactly what teams are going to do. So again, to
Speaker 1: go back to that mental toughness, that's why you do
Speaker 1: the oldest crap during the season, to get more diversified,
Speaker 1: to play different kinds of lineups, you know, to have
Speaker 1: different attack points that bend the defense in different ways,
Speaker 1: you know, like that I think I think that's why
Speaker 1: I remained so so very disappointed in this team's offense
Speaker 1: coming out of that Pacer series, because it's not like
Speaker 1: they were the James Harden Rockets, where they ran one
Speaker 1: way all season, didn't really practice anything else, didn't try
Speaker 1: anything else, didn't build their roster in a way that
Speaker 1: allowed for anything else. So yeah, when that gets messed up,
Speaker 1: when that system gets skunked up, the offense would crater.
Speaker 1: That makes sense, but that's not who this Cavs team
Speaker 1: was trying to be. So the fact that that's who
Speaker 1: they became. They became a high pick and roll, spam
Speaker 1: offense with you know, half the personnel to do that.
Speaker 1: You know, they didn't they don't have prime James Harden.
Speaker 1: They had Darius Garland on one leg and Donovan Mitchell
Speaker 1: on one leg by the end, you know, and and
Speaker 1: and all the shooting variants going the other way.
Speaker 4: And like.
Speaker 1: I just I just think they work too hard to
Speaker 1: become matchup proof, to make themselves uh uh take take
Speaker 1: out able.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I still fundamentally believe that they, you know,
Speaker 3: Indy force them into some of these situations, and then
Speaker 3: their decision making is what made it so problematic. And
Speaker 3: I think you're correct to make that point of points
Speaker 3: well taken. Honestly, I think from a cash standpoint, like
Speaker 3: that's the number one takeaway from this offseason, right, Like
Speaker 3: write it down, Write it down on paper, write it
Speaker 3: down in stone, write it down on an ai transcript
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Speaker 1: I agree, man, it's does it make you feel better
Speaker 1: at all, Like in a sense of like, uh, you know,
Speaker 1: not in a like feel good about the loss, but
Speaker 1: about the team's future That it's not, you know, like
Speaker 1: because I think both of us, you know, I tend
Speaker 1: to agree team was good enough, team was healthy enough
Speaker 1: to win that series. They didn't because not because of
Speaker 1: some fatal flaw in their toughness physically or because they
Speaker 1: couldn't keep Miles Turner off the offensive boards for a
Speaker 1: free throw attempt, but because they went away from who
Speaker 1: they are. Like in some ways, it makes me feel
Speaker 1: better because like, hey, you can bring this group back
Speaker 1: and trust them to learn good lessons to watch all
Speaker 1: this film to you know, learn from a coach that
Speaker 1: we really respect in Kenney Atkinson in terms of you know, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, they do have a good autopsy to do, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and we don't need to like we were two years ago,
Speaker 1: be like, well, I hope they hit on their signings
Speaker 1: and free agency, or we're gonna run this back. Like no,
Speaker 1: I do think they run this back and just better play, smarter, play,
Speaker 1: more mature basketball. You know, they would go further if
Speaker 1: we did this again. Like, does that make you feel
Speaker 1: better or conversely, does it make you feel a little
Speaker 1: worse about the future of the team, given that that's
Speaker 1: a couple of years in a row of this.
Speaker 3: I feel a little better, but not much, because I
Speaker 3: do think that the toughest thing to do in the
Speaker 3: NBA is talent acquisition, and I think they have the talent.
Speaker 4: To do it.
Speaker 3: What that Indie series showed me if the Cavs were
Speaker 3: fully healthy, I don't think their bad habits would have
Speaker 3: come up to an extent where they would have lost
Speaker 3: the series. I still fundamentally believe that they would have
Speaker 3: won in five or six games if you disagree with that,
Speaker 3: I respect your opinion. I'm not getting moved off this stance.
Speaker 3: I think, especially like those first three games, they could
Speaker 3: have won all of them in the condition that they
Speaker 3: were currently in. I think that the Cavs would have
Speaker 3: won that series. But what that series showed me is
Speaker 3: when the talent playing field is leveled, whether that is
Speaker 3: you know, a healthy Cells making the conference finals, which
Speaker 3: obviously didn't occur, or the Oklahoma City Thunder getting there,
Speaker 3: which I think is going to occur, and I think
Speaker 3: they are going to smoke whoever comes out of East.
Speaker 3: I think the Caves would have got smoked because the
Speaker 3: Thunder would be able to do that same thing that
Speaker 3: Indiana does with a higher level of talent, with a
Speaker 3: higher level of ball pressure, with better defensive players. Like
Speaker 3: one of the things I really admire with Indy and
Speaker 3: it's something that I want to try to steal from them,
Speaker 3: is I think what they are able to accomplish defensively
Speaker 3: with the personnel they have far exceeds the defensive talent
Speaker 3: that they have on that roster. And I do not
Speaker 3: feel that's the case for the Cavs. I think we
Speaker 3: play very good base defense with the defensive personnel that
Speaker 3: we have. I think that this team can play better
Speaker 3: defense than that. So I feel better from that standpoint.
Speaker 3: But the reason I don't feel a whole lot better
Speaker 3: is because even though I think maturity is something that
Speaker 3: you know, anyone can accomplish, I think what they need
Speaker 3: to do is things we've already seen them demon straight
Speaker 3: in high leverage games. They did really well in a
Speaker 3: lot of showcase games, right they show toughness coming back
Speaker 3: from Boston. They out executed against OKC and won that
Speaker 3: game at home, like they showed it at times. So
Speaker 3: it's not something that we've never seen them display. And
Speaker 3: I think that that's important. But it's also a very
Speaker 3: hard thing to do as well, and it's something that
Speaker 3: you either get or you don't. And I thought one
Speaker 3: of the more pointing examples that Kobe brought up at
Speaker 3: the press conference was look at Miles Turner. Miles Turner,
Speaker 3: you know, think back to twenty eighteen when we beat
Speaker 3: the Pacers in a series. At that time, it was
Speaker 3: Miles Turner is in a playoff performer. He's someone that
Speaker 3: you know was in trade rumors at that point. This
Speaker 3: is seven years later. Only last year when they made
Speaker 3: the conference finals. Did the Miles turners talk like slow down?
Speaker 3: But there were still some right, Like, there's still questions
Speaker 3: about him as a playoff performer. If he's a big
Speaker 3: that you can win with in the playoffs. You look
Speaker 3: at the conference finals across the board. That same thing
Speaker 3: has been said about to go Bear. That same thing
Speaker 3: has been said about Julius Randall, that same thing as
Speaker 3: Karl Anthony. That same thing has been said about.
Speaker 1: Conference finals for that guy that we all agreed was
Speaker 1: a big loser, uh three years ago.
Speaker 3: I'm gonna throw an asterisk on it. And you know what, here,
Speaker 3: here's the thing, here's the.
Speaker 1: Important thing he got there. I'm not throwing as he got.
Speaker 3: As much as I you know, am making the point
Speaker 3: that anybody can develop from a maturity standpoint and get
Speaker 3: over that hump. I also understand the flip side of that,
Speaker 3: because I'm not going to believe in Karl Anthony towns.
Speaker 3: I am set in, I am locked in my ways
Speaker 3: Like that's it's just fundamentally how I have you basketball.
Speaker 3: So if people feel the same way about the Calves,
Speaker 3: I understand where you are coming from. But I do
Speaker 3: think you know that maturity element that figuring out how
Speaker 3: to make things, uh, you know, more consistent from the
Speaker 3: regular season to the playoffs is something that requires soul searching,
Speaker 3: and I think it requires collaboration because I think Kenny
Speaker 3: needs to talk to everybody on the roster and say,
Speaker 3: we got away from ourselves. Is there something about how
Speaker 3: we were executing from a schematic standpoint that didn't get
Speaker 3: that same level of buy in when the pressure was
Speaker 3: the highest. Is there something that you would like to
Speaker 3: see change?
Speaker 2: Is there something you know from your end, from my end?
Speaker 2: I think you know.
Speaker 3: That was one of the things that Kenny talked about
Speaker 3: all season long, is how about how he collaborates with
Speaker 3: the players. He wants to figure out what does and
Speaker 3: doesn't work, and they're going to find that healthy middle ground.
Speaker 3: I think that that is really important, and that's the
Speaker 3: first thing that they need to do, is you know,
Speaker 3: figure out how can I make changes?
Speaker 4: How can I.
Speaker 3: Help support what changes you want to make in yourself
Speaker 3: so that we can get to a point where we
Speaker 3: are a little more playoff group, where we are able
Speaker 3: to execute even if we're a little banged up, because
Speaker 3: you know, the level of banged up Donnie was like
Speaker 3: that sucks. But that's that's you know, that's playoff wear
Speaker 3: and tear. Evan Mobley in a walking boot, DeAndre Hunter
Speaker 3: with a dislocated thumb, and Darius with a splint to
Speaker 3: put his toe in place. That's that's a little bit different.
Speaker 2: But there are going to be a.
Speaker 1: Real quick there though, because Evan, yes he was hurt,
Speaker 1: he he was as effective as Donnie was, you know,
Speaker 1: like in terms of I thought his movement was looked,
Speaker 1: especially by the time he came. Obviously, missing a game
Speaker 1: is crazy, and you know it does it not matter
Speaker 1: that he missed a game, but.
Speaker 3: I think the game one like he was not able
Speaker 3: to keep up with Sakham with with you know, an
Speaker 3: injury that required a walking boot for a little bit
Speaker 3: of time, right, And I can I just.
Speaker 1: Say what I'm saying is I think he moved, he
Speaker 1: played well. You know, I would almost put him in
Speaker 1: the Donnie category and put you know, Hunter in Garland
Speaker 1: in their own box because Garland could not move and
Speaker 1: Hunter couldn't hold the ball.
Speaker 3: Actually, you know, that's a great example because that might
Speaker 3: be the type of situation.
Speaker 4: That we're in.
Speaker 3: Like Mobile has to miss a game, he come back,
Speaker 3: He's working. He's playing through it, like last year he
Speaker 3: played through a high ankle spring. This guy's Wolverine, Like,
Speaker 3: it's really impressive what he's able to do. Can I
Speaker 3: just say I appreciate just from an irony standpoint, Pacers
Speaker 3: fans being like, well, yeah, we blew the loss. But
Speaker 3: Nie Smith left the game and then he came back
Speaker 3: and he wasn't looking one hundred percent. Oh yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: that does actually have an impact on a game, I understand,
Speaker 3: but you know, I do think that kind of logic
Speaker 3: and m Hard passed up like four open threes in
Speaker 3: that game. Game three broke my spirit at Justin and honestly,
Speaker 3: that's a lesson. Role players sometimes are going to have
Speaker 3: bad games, They're going to have bad series. That's why
Speaker 3: I'm not ready to write off Ty Jerome. You look
Speaker 3: at Dante di Vincenzo. That guy has had playoff series
Speaker 3: where he has been lights out. He has been a
Speaker 3: nightmare at various stages of the playoffs, and he has
Speaker 3: others where he is two of twenty five, like it's
Speaker 3: going to happen. And that's why you always want, as
Speaker 3: you call the Pumpkin insurance, right, like you want to
Speaker 3: have those options you can go to in the rotation.
Speaker 3: I don't think it necessarily says something about how someone
Speaker 3: is as a playoff performer. I do say that the
Speaker 3: indications of that where you start to have questions is
Speaker 3: when guys look like they're not playing their game. If
Speaker 3: you are playing your game and you are just shooting poorly,
Speaker 3: I can live with that. If you are passing up shots.
Speaker 3: If you are, you know, the record scratches when it
Speaker 3: gets to you. That's when I start to have concerns.
Speaker 3: Man Dante's splitz. By the way, you brought up Dante Divangenzo.
Speaker 1: Last year in New York he shot forty two percent
Speaker 1: from the field, forty three percent from three on eight
Speaker 1: threes a game. Is it twenty eight percent this year?
Speaker 1: Just like crazy?
Speaker 3: And I don't think it means he's not a playoff performer.
Speaker 3: He did it last year. But like this kind of
Speaker 3: variance happens. That's why you need your stars to be
Speaker 3: your stars, and that's why you need to have the
Speaker 3: depth to make up for it. Okay, see was able
Speaker 3: to bench lou Doorda times, who despite how great he is,
Speaker 3: you know, defensively, he's had some nightmare offensive series where
Speaker 3: you know, even okay, see beat guys are like, hey,
Speaker 3: I don't know if we can survive the lou Dort minutes,
Speaker 3: Like there's going to be serious. I wouldn't be surprised
Speaker 3: if he's one of their most impactful players in the
Speaker 3: finals when they get there, because I still think that.
Speaker 2: They're going to get there.
Speaker 3: But you know, like that kind of variance happens with
Speaker 3: role guys. I don't think it necessarily needs to be
Speaker 3: an indictment of them. I don't think it's a reflection
Speaker 3: of whether or not they're playoff guys. But you need
Speaker 3: your stars to be your stars, and in the cave standpoint,
Speaker 3: finding out how to maximize those guys is one of the.
Speaker 1: Most important guys figuring out how to maximize themselves.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and honestly one of the kind of moments of
Speaker 3: reflection that I've had in this time off. And I
Speaker 3: want to get your thoughts on this. Do you think
Speaker 3: we glossed over the calves going away from Mobili a
Speaker 3: bit too much in the season because it was working
Speaker 3: like they were such a good clutch team, But there
Speaker 3: were times where in the clutch Mobley's not getting the shots.
Speaker 3: Mobley would have a twenty point quarter and we go
Speaker 3: away from him in the second half. The outcomes were
Speaker 3: so good that I think from a process standpoint, we
Speaker 3: should have been pointing out, you know, Mobley isn't always
Speaker 3: getting the consistent touches that we expect if he's going
Speaker 3: to be that guy we rely on in the playoffs.
Speaker 3: To me, I feel like there are just too many
Speaker 3: opportunities where, you know, when we have a rolling we
Speaker 3: win in the clutch most clutch Wednesday in the NBA
Speaker 3: this season, Donovan and Darius are so good that we're
Speaker 3: just happy about the outcome and we weren't being buzzkills
Speaker 3: about the process because I feel like too many times
Speaker 3: Mobley kind of got cut out of that equation, and
Speaker 3: I think that that was something that we saw in
Speaker 3: the regular season that translated to the playoffs.
Speaker 1: Do you agree, I might agree. I just checked the
Speaker 1: average five point eight field goals per game in the
Speaker 1: first half, of field goal attempts per game in the
Speaker 1: first half five point one in the second half. Oh,
Speaker 1: that's the playoffs. Sorry, hold on, hold on, it's annoying.
Speaker 2: Filter. It's happened to me a few too many.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're killing me, man, Yeah, but either way, so
Speaker 1: you know, putting that wrong stat aside apologies five point
Speaker 1: eight the second half and seven point one in the
Speaker 1: first half, so there you go. In the regular season,
Speaker 1: so it was even more right.
Speaker 3: And also in twenty three clutch games this season, Mobile
Speaker 3: averaged zero point six field goal attempts in the clutch.
Speaker 1: So all that to say, I think that stat might
Speaker 1: matter more to me than the stat about, you know,
Speaker 1: their the clutch, because the clutch is its own messy thing.
Speaker 1: It's hard to get bigs touches in clutch situations. I remember,
Speaker 1: I mean even when I was like ten years old,
Speaker 1: I remember being like, likers never find shack in the clutch.
Speaker 1: It's like, well, yeah, because it's really hard to get
Speaker 1: an entry pass when guys are getting grabbed, pulled, et cetera.
Speaker 1: And I'm fine with Darius and Donovan doing the doing
Speaker 1: the high pick and roll initiation. What I'm most of
Speaker 1: them average fewer than two shots as well, which I
Speaker 1: think is important context to zero points. But I'm fine
Speaker 1: with them being the lead initiators in the clutch because
Speaker 1: it just makes more sense that you're gonna be able
Speaker 1: to do that more consistently, like more often than not
Speaker 1: sure thet the pendulum can swing. I'm fine with that,
Speaker 1: but like it's only going to swing so far. I
Speaker 1: think what's more disappointing is that first half second half
Speaker 1: attempt split where it's just like kind of no matter what,
Speaker 1: no matter how close or far the game is, they
Speaker 1: just kind of stop looking to Evan once they stop
Speaker 1: having you know, once they leave having like been primed
Speaker 1: to do so in the first half. And I think
Speaker 1: maybe that is the bigger problem. Uh, And like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I just so like I don't think it's a clutch problem.
Speaker 1: It's a it's a it's just a it's a focus problem.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 3: I think it's almost, Hey, we understand that Evan Mobley
Speaker 3: is going to need to take the leap for us
Speaker 3: to be to win a championship.
Speaker 2: He needs to be that guy.
Speaker 3: And I don't think that means they know that, like
Speaker 3: why that's that's my point is I think they all
Speaker 3: know that, but it's ingraining. Hey, we need to do,
Speaker 3: like we have to dedicate the season to helping him
Speaker 3: get there. And I think you know, what we saw
Speaker 3: from Mobley was the result of the work that he.
Speaker 4: Put in the offseason.
Speaker 3: The handle was tighter, the shot was better. He was
Speaker 3: more assertive with the opportunities that he got, But it
Speaker 3: wasn't the focal point of Hey, we got to keep
Speaker 3: attacking with Mobley. Like honestly, I thought the Miami series,
Speaker 3: like he the touches that Mobley got versus Miami were
Speaker 3: fewer than indeed, Like, he wasn't like, oh, we were
Speaker 3: using mobile and then when the pressure of Indie hit,
Speaker 3: you know, we went away from it. It was, hey,
Speaker 3: you know, things are flowing. We're not even going to
Speaker 3: really use this as an opportunity for Mobili to you know,
Speaker 3: keep attacking. It's just, hey, everything's working right, Like Darius
Speaker 3: is averaging twenty four game ties, shooting the lights out
Speaker 3: that the bench took off in the games in Miami.
Speaker 3: Like I feel like, use, one of the things they're
Speaker 3: going to need to do next season is, hey, we're
Speaker 3: going to have to figure out if we can sink
Speaker 3: or swim with Evan Mobley.
Speaker 2: And he might not get.
Speaker 3: There next year, but we're going to do absolutely everything
Speaker 3: that we can to try to get him there and
Speaker 3: to always make sure that he is involved offensively. Like
Speaker 3: I think, from a touches standpoint, he's the leader of
Speaker 3: the team. If you look at the regular season stats
Speaker 3: in terms of front court touches, he led the team
Speaker 3: with twenty eight per game, followed by Darius and then
Speaker 3: Jarrett was actually third in front court touches.
Speaker 1: And can you define front court touches for the listeners
Speaker 1: and me who always forgets exactly what it means.
Speaker 3: It means when the first time you receive the ball,
Speaker 3: when you make the catch, it is initiated in the
Speaker 3: front court. So you know, if someone brings up the
Speaker 3: ball from the back court or you know the overall
Speaker 3: touches they're bringing the ball up, that's not going to
Speaker 3: count as a possession that was initiated in the front court.
Speaker 3: So that's receiving the ball in the half court. I
Speaker 3: think it's valuable there. And it also goes to show
Speaker 3: you how they tried to move use Donovan off ball
Speaker 3: last year, right because he was the leading scorer, but
Speaker 3: he's behind Darius and Allen when it comes to those
Speaker 3: front court touches. When it goes to the playoffs, it
Speaker 3: was a twenty five percent decrease in Mobley's front court touches.
Speaker 3: It was down to twenty one. That just can't happen,
Speaker 3: man like he was behind. Mitchell was the leader, Max
Speaker 3: Struce was a second on the team. Then it was Jared,
Speaker 3: then it was Garland. Oh no, sorry, it was Mitchell
Speaker 3: and Strews ahead. Then it was Alan and Garland after that.
Speaker 3: So Darius fell all the way down to fifth kind
Speaker 3: of makes sense, particularly with.
Speaker 2: Those indie games.
Speaker 3: They were moving him off ball us than this man
Speaker 3: like Obi top and yeah, like it's I think to me,
Speaker 3: the most important thing isn't going to be the number
Speaker 3: of field goal attempts for Evan Mobiley. It's how involved
Speaker 3: he is offensively. I don't care like obviously, I want
Speaker 3: to see him aggressive. I want to see him as
Speaker 3: sert of offensively and attacking guys and not passing up opportunities.
Speaker 3: But I want him to be that focal point man
Speaker 3: like I want. I think Darius, you know, leading the
Speaker 3: team from an ission and an offense standpoint. That makes sense, Donovan.
Speaker 3: It's a few years in a row here, with the
Speaker 3: exception of the New York years, but even going back
Speaker 3: to Utah, there's always some nagging lower body thing come playoffs,
Speaker 3: and I don't think I think some of that is
Speaker 3: bad luck, Like it's landing and rolling your ankle. Stuff
Speaker 3: like that just kind of sucks. Sometimes it's been hamstrings
Speaker 3: and things like that. But from you know, a managing
Speaker 3: the load standpoint, getting Donovan Mitchell to the playoffs healthy
Speaker 3: and keeping him healthy for a playoff run is one
Speaker 3: of the most important things to me because I think
Speaker 3: that he is that special score that we need at those.
Speaker 2: Moments in the postseason.
Speaker 3: I think he absolutely brings that to the table. So
Speaker 3: from my standpoint, the solution to managing Donovan's load in
Speaker 3: the regular season, where he already was coming off you know,
Speaker 3: a career low in minutes and usage is We're still
Speaker 3: going to use you as our primary play finisher. We're
Speaker 3: still going to get you these off ball opportunities, but
Speaker 3: we are giving more touches where we are giving more
Speaker 3: creation burden to Heaven Mobley because we think that that
Speaker 3: is going to be how we can beat these playoff defenses.
Speaker 3: This is how we can make our offenses more playoff proof,
Speaker 3: and this is how we can beat some of that
Speaker 3: pressure that teams are going to throw at a smaller backcourt.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what I would say is I actually am not
Speaker 1: that interested in Donovan's load management. In the regular season.
Speaker 1: I don't think it could be. It's not going to
Speaker 1: be much less than it was no this year.
Speaker 4: What I would.
Speaker 1: Propose, though, is that you just continue to manage his
Speaker 1: load stylistically into the playoffs, you know, by continuing to
Speaker 1: play the way you played all regular season. You know, like,
Speaker 1: like it's I want Donovan to be able to go
Speaker 1: ballistic for six minutes at a time like he did
Speaker 1: in Game two against Miami, you know, but you play
Speaker 1: Cavs basketball until you got to break that class like
Speaker 1: they've you know, in the last two postseasons, whether it
Speaker 1: be due to injury or you know, that lack of consistency,
Speaker 1: it's been Donovan's gonna do this, try to try to
Speaker 1: do a forty forty minute night where he puts up,
Speaker 1: you know, forty five shots, and like, I just can't.
Speaker 1: That can't be the plan to start the game. And
Speaker 1: by the way, you mentioned the mobile thing that it's
Speaker 1: not about shot attempts, it's about touches.
Speaker 4: You're right.
Speaker 1: But what I will argue is that if he's getting
Speaker 1: the touches that he's supposed if he's not getting the
Speaker 1: touches that we want him to get, it is impossible
Speaker 1: for him to get up to twenty field goal attempts.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you don't.
Speaker 1: Rudy Gobert doesn't have a lot of twenty field goal
Speaker 1: attempt games, you know, just being a role man and
Speaker 1: a dunker spot lurker. Like, let's be honest, if the
Speaker 1: touches increase, the field goal attempts are going to increase, That's.
Speaker 4: What I'm saying.
Speaker 1: And how the touches, you know, are, you know, present themselves.
Speaker 1: If he's getting elbow touches, he's gonna get more chances
Speaker 1: to post up, to score, to drive, did to shoot,
Speaker 1: to whatever it is. You know, you just only get
Speaker 1: so much being a pure dive man or a pure
Speaker 1: dunker spot guy or a pure spacer like you have
Speaker 1: to actually be involved in the core of the offense.
Speaker 1: You know, it's really hard for DeAndre Hunter to get
Speaker 1: up to twenty shot attempts if he's not, you know,
Speaker 1: being worked towards. And that's a guy who has no
Speaker 1: problem shooting. Yeah, I got a question for you.
Speaker 3: This was brought up a in our discord, and initially
Speaker 3: I think I may have brushed it off to some extent,
Speaker 3: and as I've sat with it more, I think it's
Speaker 3: a valid question to ask should the Cavs try to
Speaker 3: be a higher passing team next year because they were
Speaker 3: a very high assist team last year. They were near
Speaker 3: the top of the league when it came to you know,
Speaker 3: assisted field goals and things like that. But from a
Speaker 3: pass his main standpoint, they were twenty eighth with two
Speaker 3: sixty seven per game. The Indiana Pacers were second in
Speaker 3: the NBA with three hundred and thirty. So we're talking
Speaker 3: about about a seventy pass difference. If do you think
Speaker 3: that there's some value in Hey, we're going to reduce
Speaker 3: how much Darius and Donovan are asked to create on
Speaker 3: ball and to try to beat the kind of pressure
Speaker 3: that these longer teams are going to throw at you.
Speaker 3: By the pass, we are going to find Evan Mobley
Speaker 3: earlier on whether that is you know, if teams are
Speaker 3: throwing full court pressure, we're going to use Evan Mobley
Speaker 3: to help break that press. We are going to find
Speaker 3: him earlier, going to get the ball moving and then
Speaker 3: they were going to attack a destabilized defense after the fact.
Speaker 2: Do you think that.
Speaker 3: There's some value you know, I don't think they need
Speaker 3: to be you know, that high up. I think the
Speaker 3: passing efficiency that they had was phenomenal, and when you
Speaker 3: are a lower passing team, it's going to make you
Speaker 3: one of the better turnover teams in the NBA, which
Speaker 3: the Cavs were. So there is, you know, pros and
Speaker 3: cons when it comes to both of this. But I
Speaker 3: do think, you know, I think back to high school,
Speaker 3: where you know, our coach had the quickest dribbler on
Speaker 3: the team, try to go full court. It was like,
Speaker 3: all right, let's time that. See how fast that was.
Speaker 3: And then the second time he had him do the drill,
Speaker 3: he threw a pass the length of the court to
Speaker 3: someone that was running without the ball, and he's like,
Speaker 3: see how much faster that is. I feel like one
Speaker 3: of the ways you can beat pressure is by getting
Speaker 3: the ball out of your hands as you see the
Speaker 3: pressure coming, and using guys like Evan Mobley and other
Speaker 3: front court players to help break that pressure that we
Speaker 3: see teams use.
Speaker 1: I maybe it's an interesting thought, discord passing isn't necessarily
Speaker 1: indicative of success. It's important to say there. Golden State
Speaker 1: and Andy lead the league in passing. The next four teams,
Speaker 1: the Chicago Bulls, the Phoenix Suns, the Brooklyn Nets and
Speaker 1: the Toronto Raptors, then the Washington Wizards as the as
Speaker 1: the lucky number five. So I don't think they're there
Speaker 1: with us. They're like they're twenty sixth. They have two
Speaker 1: more passes per game yep. And you know, so like
Speaker 1: there's and then you look at the bottom of the league.
Speaker 1: Houston a very good team, Dallas, you know, at their best,
Speaker 1: a pretty good team, the Clippers, the Pistons, the thunder
Speaker 1: the Celtics, the Grizzlies, the Bucks. Like, you know, the
Speaker 1: pedigree on one side of that spectrum seems a lot
Speaker 1: better than the other. And I do think one of
Speaker 1: the things that I liked about the Cavs because they
Speaker 1: were I want to say fourth or fifth last year,
Speaker 1: and passes per game checking right now they were fifth.
Speaker 1: I you know, I do feel like some of those
Speaker 1: passes were the the old habit that I hated, which was,
Speaker 1: you know, letting perfect be the enemy of good. M
Speaker 1: Like the Calves this year put so much pressure on
Speaker 1: teams by having so many guys feeling empowered to catch attack,
Speaker 1: you know, And I don't really want that to go
Speaker 1: away just because they stop playing that way in the
Speaker 1: regular in the postseason because they stopped playing a diverse
Speaker 1: attack that empowered a bunch of dudes to play that way.
Speaker 1: And like, that's where I always go back to the
Speaker 1: you know what lessons you choose to learn from, And
Speaker 1: I'm not sure that's where my attention is focused right now,
Speaker 1: I guess is what I'm what I'm saying, I just
Speaker 1: want I want them to attack in the ways that
Speaker 1: I saw them do it all regular season, Like I
Speaker 1: want them to be.
Speaker 4: Better than that. I want.
Speaker 3: Like from an Evan mobile involvement standpoint, I think that
Speaker 3: it needs to be better than it was through the
Speaker 3: regular seas, and I think it needs to be a
Speaker 3: more consistent feature. And I just I just found that
Speaker 3: topic interesting because I do think it ties into mobile
Speaker 3: because he is such an intelligent passer. Both of our
Speaker 3: bigs really do kind of excel in that category. Max
Speaker 3: excels it as a front court option there. I just
Speaker 3: think using them to break the press is very important.
Speaker 3: I just I guess it's almost a little reductive, but
Speaker 3: I think we need to, you know, in circling back
Speaker 3: to talking about the Core four and how you know mobile,
Speaker 3: Garland Mitchell, They're just from a level of importance standpoint.
Speaker 3: I think they're just ahead of Jared with all due
Speaker 3: respect to honestly deserved ALSAR consideration last year, but you know,
Speaker 3: it was on the outside looking and I do think
Speaker 3: you almost have to take a Big three approach to
Speaker 3: some extent, and they do that to some extent where
Speaker 3: Jared is, you know, feeding off of them. It's not
Speaker 3: someone that you're designing a lot of touches for. But
Speaker 3: I think I really want to see the importance of
Speaker 3: Edvan Mobley and the consistency of Evan Mobley being used
Speaker 3: in the offense to increase whether that is as a playmaker,
Speaker 3: whether that's as a score just making sure that that
Speaker 3: is a continued point of emphasis, because I don't think
Speaker 3: we're getting to the mountain top unless Evan Mobley is
Speaker 3: ready to get there. And I don't think you. I
Speaker 3: don't think that those habits are going to be in
Speaker 3: the right place in the playoffs if you are not
Speaker 3: dedicating to yourself to that all regular season. And I
Speaker 3: think that was one of the things we saw in
Speaker 3: the regular season that translated to the playoffs. It just
Speaker 3: resulted in losses in the playoffs, whereas in the regular
Speaker 3: season we glossed over it because we got wins. You
Speaker 3: got to stop treating Evan Mobley like he's Kevin Love.
Speaker 3: We're giving him, you know, his first quarter touches to
Speaker 3: get the stats, and then we go away from him
Speaker 3: the rest of the game. He needs to be part
Speaker 3: of the Cavs ecosystem offensively consistently when he's on the court.
Speaker 4: That I will not argue with. Brother.
Speaker 1: It does feel like that's going to be my big
Speaker 1: story of the year is just like anything that doesn't
Speaker 1: serve that because like, I just feel like I've seen
Speaker 1: the I've seen too many times the limitations of the
Speaker 1: guard focused attack.
Speaker 3: Like and it only works. The only examples in NBA
Speaker 3: history where these shorter back courts end up winning is
Speaker 3: when they have the front court initiation. We've been saying
Speaker 3: it for years. Draymond was that guy for Stephan Jordan Poole,
Speaker 3: I know, you know, Jordan Poole's an inch taller than
Speaker 3: Donovan Mitchell. He's a much worse defender than Donovan Mitchell.
Speaker 3: He doesn't have the wingspan of Donovan Mitchell. Darius is
Speaker 3: an inch shorter than Steph Curry. I understand that, but
Speaker 3: he has a taller standing reach than Steph. He has
Speaker 3: a longer wingspan than Steph. Like, I think that that
Speaker 3: is you know, if height is the only thing you're
Speaker 3: talking about, I think that that is a valid example.
Speaker 3: If your counter to that is, well, yeah, Steph's great,
Speaker 3: I would say, oh, so you know, talent is part
Speaker 3: of the equation and it's not just about height. So
Speaker 3: you know, maybe these comparisons about other short back courts
Speaker 3: aren't one to one, but I think that's As an
Speaker 3: example Toronto, when Fred Van Vliet and Kyle Lowry were
Speaker 3: playing fifteen to twenty minutes per game together at five
Speaker 3: to eleven, they won because they had Marcusol and Kawhi
Speaker 3: Leonard that could help break the pressure in the front court.
Speaker 3: All the examples you see had that front court playmaking
Speaker 3: heaven Mobiley needs to be that guy. It's the point
Speaker 3: we've hammered home and I think when we look at
Speaker 3: the off season, that is the number one thing that
Speaker 3: I think we need to talk about. And you know,
Speaker 3: it has to be part of you know, on the
Speaker 3: Cavs radar to change.
Speaker 4: Yes, it does.
Speaker 1: Brother, It's gonna be a long off season because you know,
Speaker 1: so much of that isn't you know, isn't something that
Speaker 1: you can transaction your way to. They just have to
Speaker 1: you know, they have to realize it. They have to
Speaker 1: believe in it and internalize it in a way that
Speaker 1: that is really meaningful. And I do think like as
Speaker 1: we get through the off season, as we kind of
Speaker 1: hit the end of this pod, we are going to
Speaker 1: you know, uh, I think we've spent a lot of
Speaker 1: time talking about the things we wouldn't do. I do
Speaker 1: think we have things we believe in changes that we
Speaker 1: would make too, you know, a little further down the
Speaker 1: line in terms of what styles of players were interested
Speaker 1: in filling out the roster and what styles of players
Speaker 1: we want to see in the rotation moving forward. So
Speaker 1: I do want to, like in the pod with with
Speaker 1: something you know, maybe a bit of a teaser looking
Speaker 1: forward of like you know, we are we don't want
Speaker 1: pure status quo and just give the ball to Evan Moore.
Speaker 1: You know, we do want to see some changes. It's just, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, I do think this was an important maybe
Speaker 1: a level to set for this podcast particular discourse. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I honestly I messaged you two days ago where
Speaker 1: I'm like, I feel like this podcast might go on
Speaker 1: for two hours because I was planning on talking about,
Speaker 1: you know, let's look at the rotation. Let's look at
Speaker 1: you know, those guys seven through ten, how they're being used,
Speaker 1: how they were used in the regular season, how they
Speaker 1: were using the playoffs, what changes we'd like to see there.
Speaker 1: That was part of my rundown for this yere podcast.
Speaker 1: But we got a lot of weeks of off season
Speaker 1: basketball to talk about. It's done in two hours in
Speaker 1: late May. Let me tell you, brother, now we.
Speaker 3: Need to spend you know, space these out. We're already
Speaker 3: at an hour here. We can touch on those changes
Speaker 3: to the rotation that we need to see. But I think,
Speaker 3: you know, the important takeaway is one this Cavs corps
Speaker 3: has the talent to do what they need to do.
Speaker 3: It's about finding that maturity and finding the ways that
Speaker 3: empower them to be more than the some of their parts,
Speaker 3: which I still do not think that they have managed
Speaker 3: to be that yet. I think they have played up
Speaker 3: to that.
Speaker 2: Level of town.
Speaker 3: I think they were a fantastic regular season team, but
Speaker 3: they still need to find those ways to be more
Speaker 3: than the some of the parts. So we will continue
Speaker 3: to dive into what's going to help make that a
Speaker 3: healthier ecosystem for the calves, how they can take that
Speaker 3: next step and you know, contend for a championship next season.
Speaker 3: Unfortunate that this was the you know, the first season
Speaker 3: where they didn't meet those expectations that we had going
Speaker 3: into the season. But these types of things happen and
Speaker 3: we will see how the Cavs respond to it. Big
Speaker 3: thanks to everyone tuning in live on YouTube. Really appreciate
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Speaker 2: However you choose to support us, we really do appreciate it.
Speaker 2: Sure you guys are staying safe out there.
Speaker 3: Until next time, Go Cavs.