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Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, you're listening to episode thirty nine of Hurdle,

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Speaker 1: a podcast that talks to everyone from top CEOs to

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Speaker 1: entrepreneurs about how they got through tough times hurdles of

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Speaker 1: sorts by leaning into wellness. My name's Emila Badi, and

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Speaker 1: today I'm chatting with Carolyn Gilstra. She's the editor in

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Speaker 1: chief of Self. This episode's brought to you by Athletic Greens.

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Speaker 1: I travel a lot, and every single time, without fail,

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Speaker 1: the first thing I set aside to put into my

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Speaker 1: carry on Athletic Greens. Not only does it contain twelve

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Speaker 1: servings of fruits and vegetables, but drinking it every single

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Speaker 1: morning makes me feel like a better me. They're offering

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Speaker 1: a special deal to Hurdle listeners. It's twenty travel packs

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Speaker 1: a ninety nine dollars value for free free with your

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Speaker 1: slash hurdle to claim it. No code necessary again, that's

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Speaker 1: Athleticgreens dot com slash Hurdle. Now let's talk about Carolyn.

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Speaker 1: To say that she's had an impressive career in journalism

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Speaker 1: so far is an understatement from stints at Men's Health

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Speaker 1: to Cosmopolitan and Woman's Health and BuzzFeed. Now she's the

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Speaker 1: editor in chief of Self at Conde Nast, but her

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Speaker 1: rise to the top wasn't exactly smooth sailing all along.

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Speaker 1: In her Hurdle moment, the new mom shares that she

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Speaker 1: found out she was pregnant around the same time her

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Speaker 1: entire career was about to make a major shift, and

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Speaker 1: how she managed to keep it together despite abundant and

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Speaker 1: sometimes overwhelming amounts of responsibility, also constant morning sickness. We

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Speaker 1: talk about everything from the scary climate of the publishing

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Speaker 1: industry to how she manages to take time for herself.

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Speaker 1: She tells me an insane story about how she almost

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Speaker 1: died because of a tick bite. We reflect on what

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Speaker 1: our careers cross paths, and she offers up some essential

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Speaker 1: insight on what it truly means to be healthy. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this episode is loaded. I want to quickly thank Ink

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Speaker 1: for featuring Hurdle this week on their list of seven

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Speaker 1: podcasts to add to your rotation if you're growing a

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Speaker 1: small business. I was in California in my hotel room

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Speaker 1: the other night, and I literally screamed with excitement when

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Speaker 1: I got this Google alert. I swear I thought the

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Speaker 1: housekeeping staff was going to come check in on me. Also,

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Speaker 1: a huge, huge thank you again to weewerk Labs for

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Speaker 1: hosting Hurdle last week. It was so great to hang

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Speaker 1: out with a bunch of hurdlers in person, and that

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Speaker 1: conversation will be live at some point this week on

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Speaker 1: the feed as always Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, hit me up

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Speaker 1: at Hurdle Podcast. Time me in your Instagram stories, I'll

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Speaker 1: make sure to repost them from the Hurdle feed, and

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Speaker 1: if you want to chat or you have a hurdle

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Speaker 1: moment of your own to share, feel free to hit

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Speaker 1: me up. Emily at hurdle dot Us. Shout out today

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Speaker 1: to Arifreed. She messaged me to tell me about her

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Speaker 1: hurdle moment. She's moving from Seattle all the way to Brooklyn.

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Speaker 1: She wrote, I'd be lying if I said that I

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Speaker 1: wasn't nervous about my upcoming cross country move and taking

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Speaker 1: long call ships in the hospital when I'm used to

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Speaker 1: working in a nine to five dental clinic. I know

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Speaker 1: I'm going to need to pay special attention to how

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Speaker 1: I'm treating my mind and body during these upcoming three

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Speaker 1: years in Brooklyn, and your podcast is helping me get

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Speaker 1: ready for this. Thanks for putting yourself out there in

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Speaker 1: Happy twenty nineteen. She would also appreciate any food or

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Speaker 1: workout recommendations. So Ari, I'm going to tell you this,

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Speaker 1: make sure you get to Linees tend Power Yoga. It's

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Speaker 1: my fave. They are in Tribeca and also in Chelsea.

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Speaker 1: And maybe either after that or some other time, hit

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Speaker 1: up Emily Pizza. You won't regret it. And that's it

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Speaker 1: for now. With that, let's get to hurdling today. I'm

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Speaker 1: sitting here with Carolyn Kilstra, She's the editor in chief

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Speaker 1: of Self magazine, and I'm super amped because we are

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Speaker 1: at the Smile Radio inside the Smile to Go at

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Speaker 1: the Free Hand Hotel, and it's the first time I'm

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Speaker 1: recording here, which is exciting. What's going on, Carolyn, Hi, Emily.

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Speaker 1: We're like a little bit giddy over this because this

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Speaker 1: has been so long in the making.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it really has been. I'm really sorry about that.

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Speaker 1: O gosh, no apology is necessary. Apology is necessary. But

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Speaker 1: a little background here. Carolyn and I have known each

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Speaker 1: other for some times. I mean we both worked at

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Speaker 1: Rodale together. Yes, May at rest in peace.

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Speaker 2: Many years ago. Yeah, like I don't know how many

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Speaker 2: years years.

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Speaker 1: That was probably about seven years, six years ago. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so we worked together about six years ago at the

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Speaker 1: same company and now and then we intersected a'll bite

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Speaker 1: briefly at self seeting Carolyn is like a little bit

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Speaker 1: of PTSD for me. But it's okay, it's okay. I'm

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Speaker 1: excited about where you self is going. I'm excited to

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Speaker 1: talk about that today. I'm so amped to be here

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Speaker 1: with you. I think the way that I want to

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Speaker 1: jump into this from the get go is, obviously you

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Speaker 1: have an impressive resume. I kind of just already threw

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Speaker 1: down some of the places that you've worked. We have

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Speaker 1: Woman's Self, we have BuzzFeed, we have self in multiple roles.

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Speaker 1: So with that said, a bunch of health publications, you

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Speaker 1: would think, Carlyn, that you're the most fitnessy person ever.

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Speaker 2: You would be wrong. You would be incorrect.

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Speaker 1: Talk to me a little bit about like what you do,

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Speaker 1: what's your deal, what's your streck, what do you do?

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Speaker 2: What's my workout thing? Yeah, my workout thing is that

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Speaker 2: I basically don't work out. I have been in the

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Speaker 2: health and wellness space for about a decade now, and

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Speaker 2: I could probably count the number of workouts that I've

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Speaker 2: done like on.

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Speaker 1: Maybe my.

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Speaker 2: No, okay, I take that back, I take that back.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, I don't work out like almost ever. And

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Speaker 2: I joke that I'm like the least healthy health editor

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Speaker 2: of all time. I know it's important I go on

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Speaker 2: long walks, like I get exercise, I track my steps

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Speaker 2: and all that, but I just I'm so busy and

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Speaker 2: and literally no one's perfect, and I do what I can.

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Speaker 1: I see you're also wearing the Apple Watch, which is

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Speaker 1: a great a great motivator to get up and walk

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Speaker 1: around and close the rings. I'm sure you get lots

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Speaker 1: of steps inside of one World Trade.

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Speaker 2: I do, and I get steps on my commute also,

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Speaker 2: like you know, I probably walk about just commuting, I

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Speaker 2: walk probably about two miles a day. Wow, because it's

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Speaker 2: I walk about two miles a day, like just in general,

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Speaker 2: but like other than that, like I have to really

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Speaker 2: make an effort to move more. I generally get more

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Speaker 2: of my steps on the weekends.

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Speaker 1: And we'll obviously backtrack into kind of how you ended

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Speaker 1: up where you are now, But do you feel a

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Speaker 1: certain amount of pressure being in your position to be

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Speaker 1: a certain amount of active or maybe it's not being

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Speaker 1: active as much as it is being healthy, because that's

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Speaker 1: something also to note that being healthy isn't just about

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Speaker 1: doing a certain workout every day. There's so many aspects

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Speaker 1: to overall health aside from that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, this is something I think about a lot.

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Speaker 2: So Okay, So I'm in media. You're in media. You

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Speaker 2: understand the importance of branding and personal branding, and as

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Speaker 2: a leader of a brand, it's really important that I

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Speaker 2: represent the brand in a way that is authentic and

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Speaker 2: realistic and also like advancing the brand's agenda. I guess

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Speaker 2: I've always had a really hard time doing the self

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Speaker 2: promotion thing and also like aligning my personal brand with

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Speaker 2: the actual brand I'm working for. I don't know why

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Speaker 2: that is. I think the way I think about health

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Speaker 2: and wellness is maybe less like right in your dot

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Speaker 2: journal every night and get this many steps and drink

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Speaker 2: this many cups of water or whatever, which are all

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Speaker 2: really good things to do, and more about how can

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Speaker 2: I feel good at the end of the day, or

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Speaker 2: how can I feel as good as is possible within

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Speaker 2: the constraints at the end of the day. And so

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Speaker 2: it's funny because as part of my job. My boss

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Speaker 2: is like, you really need to be more on social media,

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Speaker 2: you really need to be more promotional and do more

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Speaker 2: branding and so on representing the brand. And I'm like,

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Speaker 2: I'm so boring though, like I and there's nothing visual

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Speaker 2: about my life. Like it's like I commute and I

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Speaker 2: sit in meetings and then I commute home and then

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Speaker 2: I put my baby to bed and and like there's

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Speaker 2: and like so the things that are health related there

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Speaker 2: are like a little more cerebral than like, look at

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Speaker 2: this sick workout class I'm in, or look at this

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Speaker 2: hot at leisure I'm wearing.

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Speaker 1: I bet you have a lot of great athleasure, though

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Speaker 1: I have really good measure. Also, I love how you

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Speaker 1: just casually said my boss, Like Anna Wintour is your boss,

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Speaker 1: and it's just like my boss. I'm like, yeah, same,

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Speaker 1: same these. Okay, so health books a little bit different

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Speaker 1: for you than it does for the next person. And

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Speaker 1: the next person. You're doing the best you can with

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Speaker 1: what you have, which I think is always a motto

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Speaker 1: do abide bye. And now I think is a good

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Speaker 1: time then to segue and kind of bring it back,

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Speaker 1: bring it back to maybe around uh, you know what,

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Speaker 1: let's wind it all the way back where you're coming from.

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Speaker 2: Care how far back are we time?

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Speaker 1: I'm going back, I'm going to like, where'd you grow up?

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Speaker 2: Oh?

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Speaker 1: Where'd you go to college?

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Speaker 2: Okay? Okay? I grew up in North Carolina, which maybe

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Speaker 2: you wouldn't be able to tell because I don't have

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Speaker 2: much of an accent. Okay. I grew up in a

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Speaker 2: family of doctors, right. My parents are doctors. I have

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Speaker 2: numerous aunts who are doctors, grandparents doctors, like, just doctors everywhere,

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Speaker 2: which is a really privileged background and incredible access to

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Speaker 2: the medical establishment. Basically, as you can imagine, they're all

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Speaker 2: thrilled that I went into journalism and not medicine, but

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Speaker 2: I feel, you know, I always wanted to tell stories

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Speaker 2: and I loved writing, and so that's why I went

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Speaker 2: in this direction. But it's also kind of funny that

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Speaker 2: I ended up in health journalism because I just like

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Speaker 2: couldn't escape that upbringing, right, you know what I mean?

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Speaker 2: And I think the reason I gravitated toward health journalism

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Speaker 2: is because having grown up with so many doctors in

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Speaker 2: my life, I I am not intimidated by them, and

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Speaker 2: I know how to talk to them, and I realize

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Speaker 2: that they're all just people, and I'm really good at

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Speaker 2: getting at getting them to communicate in a way that's

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Speaker 2: a little more human, because I think that a lot

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Speaker 2: of doctors and experts tend to not know how to

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Speaker 2: talk in a way that people can understand. Totally not

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Speaker 2: saying that people aren't smart enough, but like, it's really

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Speaker 2: it's a problem. It's a challenge of science communication and

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Speaker 2: being able to say here's the issue and here's how

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Speaker 2: I'm thinking about it, instead of using all these words

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Speaker 2: that nobody knows what they mean, et cetera. And so

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Speaker 2: I just having that background made it easier for me

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Speaker 2: to talk to them on the phone and be like, Okay,

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Speaker 2: can you please explain that again? Oh wait, can you

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Speaker 2: explain that a little bit more. Can you talk to

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Speaker 2: me like I'm five and explain it?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: And then once you really push, that's when you get

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Speaker 2: the good stuff.

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Speaker 1: I agree, I agree, And I mean the same thing

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Speaker 1: happens in this room when I'm trying to get people

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Speaker 1: to tell their story. It's like you say one thing

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Speaker 1: and you think it's what I want to hear, and

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Speaker 1: I look at you and I say, well, what about

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Speaker 1: this part of that one thing, and let's elaborate on that,

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Speaker 1: and let's take a little bit deeper. I also think

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Speaker 1: it gets to be a little funny to be the

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Speaker 1: person doing all of this reporting from like the freely

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Speaker 1: answer journalist perspective, in that you're sitting down with these

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Speaker 1: experts and in my case, like these experts know that

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Speaker 1: I'm also a certified trainer, I'm a run coach. I've

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Speaker 1: been around the block writing this content for years. But

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Speaker 1: I still have to ask them questions like so, tell

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Speaker 1: me again why bliometrics are really good for you?

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Speaker 2: Right? And they're like, don't you know? And you're like no, no, no,

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Speaker 2: but you need to say.

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Speaker 1: I need you to give me the four one one

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Speaker 1: right please if you don't mind. Okay. So you get

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Speaker 1: into this industry where you're asking lots of really smart

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Speaker 1: people to dumb things down for you.

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Speaker 2: Right, dumb things down. No, it's not dumbing things down,

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Speaker 2: And that I think is what a lot of science

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Speaker 2: communicator are. People who should be better at communicating scientists

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Speaker 2: need to understand it's not dumbing down your message. It's

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Speaker 2: commune dicating more clearly, right, it's communicating in a way

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Speaker 2: that people can connect with and can relate to and

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Speaker 2: can understand.

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Speaker 1: Since you're not in the room, you didn't see me

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Speaker 1: give like an aggressive nodding yes of understanding where she's

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Speaker 1: coming from.

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Speaker 2: Yes, you get it, you've done this.

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Speaker 1: You tontally got your I totally get it. Okay, So

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Speaker 1: you're doing that at when you went from Cosmo to

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Speaker 1: Woman's Health, Is that right?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? So okay. I started at Men's Health right after

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Speaker 2: I graduated in June two thousand and eight. Really not

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Speaker 2: an ideal time to graduate because the economy went off

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Speaker 2: a cliff three months later and I was in the

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Speaker 2: middle of a six month internship and I was like,

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Speaker 2: oh crap, now what everyone nobody's hiring. Everyone laid off

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Speaker 2: ten to fifteen percent of their employees. It was really,

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Speaker 2: really scary. I was at Men's Health in a temp

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Speaker 2: position for like a year, and then I was incredibly

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Speaker 2: lucky to get a full time job because somebody left.

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Speaker 2: Was at Men's Health for a few years, went to Cosmo,

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Speaker 2: was there for a few years, went to Women's Health

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Speaker 2: from Cosmo.

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Speaker 1: Gotcha, yeah, and at Woman's Health. Correct me if I'm wrong.

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Speaker 1: But when we were talking on the phone, you were

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Speaker 1: telling me that this was like a really crazy time

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Speaker 1: for your life because you may or may not have

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Speaker 1: almost died.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that did happen. Yeah, it was a two

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Speaker 2: year It was an amazing two years. It was a

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Speaker 2: really full, wild two years for me. I got engaged

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Speaker 2: and married during that time. I also, in the very

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Speaker 2: middle of it. Three months before I got married, had

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Speaker 2: a completely bizarre, out of the middle of nowhere health

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Speaker 2: crisis where and you guys should google this, but I

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Speaker 2: got a tick bite and then got a disease called

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Speaker 2: Rocky Mountain spotted fever, which landed me in the hospital

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Speaker 2: for a week, and like, really really, it took me

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Speaker 2: a good six months to feel normal again after that.

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Speaker 2: And so that was in the middle of working at

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Speaker 2: women's Health.

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Speaker 1: That must have been absolutely frightening.

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Speaker 2: At the time, I was so sick that I didn't

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Speaker 2: even realize what was going on. I think it was

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Speaker 2: completely terrifying to my then fiance now husband, and I

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Speaker 2: know my family was very freaked out.

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Speaker 1: And you come from a family of doctors, right.

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Speaker 2: And honestly, it was a really interesting experience for me

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Speaker 2: because I realized how extremely privileged I am to come

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Speaker 2: from this family of doctors. Because they were instrumental in

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Speaker 2: helping me get the care that I needed, like navigating

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Speaker 2: the medical establishment while sick. Without that access would have

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Speaker 2: been like basically impossible.

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Speaker 1: And when you first started to get sick, how did

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Speaker 1: you know it was something bigger than just having a

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Speaker 1: fever feeling really down?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. So I went to my GP. I went

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Speaker 2: to my primary care physician because I felt like I

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Speaker 2: had the flu. And I was like, I had a

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Speaker 2: fever and I just felt awful, and I was like, Oh,

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Speaker 2: what's going on? Do I have the It wasn't flu season,

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Speaker 2: it was May, and she was like, Oh, it's probably

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Speaker 2: just a virus. There's some stuff going around. Sleep over

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Speaker 2: the weekend and see how you feel. But I was

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Speaker 2: on the phone with my mom that night and was

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Speaker 2: explained to her how I was feeling, and she remembered

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Speaker 2: that I'd been back in North Carolina two weeks before

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Speaker 2: and I'd gotten a tick on me and this disease

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Speaker 2: Rocky Mountain spotted fever.

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Speaker 1: Is it's nickname for this, No, it is.

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Speaker 2: It's really rare, but the place where it's most common

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Speaker 2: is in North Carolina and during this time of year,

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Speaker 2: and it presents like you have the flu but without

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Speaker 2: any like coughing or congestion, and there in a lot

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Speaker 2: of cases it has a rash. I didn't have the rash,

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Speaker 2: but I had like all of the other signs. And

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Speaker 2: my parents were like, oh, wait, you need to get

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Speaker 2: on antibiotics right away. This is a really dangerous disease

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Speaker 2: and you need to get on antibiotics. And so I

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Speaker 2: called up my doctor and I was like, I think

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Speaker 2: they think this is what it is. And she's like, oh,

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Speaker 2: I don't know anything about this. Let me look it up.

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Speaker 2: It sounds like that's possible. And so she was great

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Speaker 2: and she got me oral antibiotics. The problem was that

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Speaker 2: they weren't That wasn't going to be sufficient, and I

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Speaker 2: just got sicker and sicker, and so my parents were

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Speaker 2: finally like, you need to go to the er. And

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Speaker 2: I went to the er and the er doc was

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Speaker 2: just like not having it and he thought I was

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Speaker 2: just going through alcohol withdrawal or something, which it was

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Speaker 2: Memorial Day weekend, so maybe I have no idea. Anyway,

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Speaker 2: he prescribed right right when all the raging happens, right,

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Speaker 2: and so he prescribed me out a van for anxiety,

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Speaker 2: and meanwhile I have like an incredibly high fever. I'm

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Speaker 2: not able to keep down water, and like I have

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Speaker 2: multiple doctors on the phone being like, you need to

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Speaker 2: get her on like ivy anibotics right now, And my

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Speaker 2: mom actually flew to New York City to like argue

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Speaker 2: with the doctors. My aunt got on the phone. She's

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Speaker 2: a primary care physician in North Carolina. We had multiple

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Speaker 2: doctors like arguing with them. And then finally after this

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Speaker 2: guy shift ended and a new er doctor came on board,

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Speaker 2: she was like, Huh, this does seem like you guys

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Speaker 2: know what you're talking about. And so that's when I

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Speaker 2: got on IVY antibiotics and I was in the hospital

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Speaker 2: for a week.

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Speaker 1: Back to your point, though, like if you didn't have

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Speaker 1: these people advocating for you, like I, I'm also lucky

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Speaker 1: because my mom's a nurse, and I feel like everyone

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Speaker 1: a lot of people have some odd tie to medicine

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Speaker 1: in some way through someone, right, but not everyone, And

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Speaker 1: so when things like this happen, you have these people

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Speaker 1: advocating for you. The normal person might not and they're

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Speaker 1: just going to do whatever they feel like they're told

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Speaker 1: they're supposed to.

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Speaker 2: Do, right, I mean totally and I'm fortunate on a

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Speaker 2: million levels that that I'm a white woman, and so

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Speaker 2: they were more likely to take me seriously because I'm

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Speaker 2: a white woman instead of a person of color coming

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Speaker 2: in complaining about pain that my family is has the

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Speaker 2: means to fly for my mom, to fly from another

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Speaker 2: state to come advocate for me and stay with me,

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Speaker 2: you know, for a week while I'm in the hospital,

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Speaker 2: for my parents and my entire family, to many people

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Speaker 2: in my family to be doctors so they are aware

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Speaker 2: of these diseases and know how to talk to other

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Speaker 2: doctors and know how to know how to advocate for

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Speaker 2: their loved ones in the system. Every single one of

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Speaker 2: those things is a point of privilege, and and it

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Speaker 2: really blows my mind thinking about how the vast, vast

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Speaker 2: majority of people do not have many, if not most,

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Speaker 2: of those advantages. And if it was this hard for

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Speaker 2: me with all of these advantages to get the care

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Speaker 2: that I needed, then how hard must it be for

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Speaker 2: everyone else?

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Speaker 1: Totally?

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Speaker 2: You know what a hurdle.

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Speaker 1: A hurdle? Okay, so we survived here, I am how

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Speaker 1: is it getting back to work and everything? After that?

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Speaker 2: It was tough. I worked, so I was out for

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Speaker 2: the week I was in the hospital, was out for

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Speaker 2: another week after I had to go on FMLA or

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Speaker 2: short term disability I can't even remember. But I was

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Speaker 2: out for long enough that I had to like go

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Speaker 2: through like actually legal whatever, and then I was working

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Speaker 2: remotely for like another few weeks. And it's funny because

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Speaker 2: I just at the time, I thought I was like fine,

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Speaker 2: just tired. But a month later I would like look

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Speaker 2: at emails that I sent during that time period and

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Speaker 2: have like absolute zero recollection of anything I was emailing

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Speaker 2: or and I was like, I have no memory of

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Speaker 2: that conversation, like entire conversations that I had. I just

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Speaker 2: I just wasn't fully healed yet, right, And I literally

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Speaker 2: it took me like six months until I felt like

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Speaker 2: I had my energy back and like had my bearing.

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Speaker 1: Did you have doubts about your ability to go back

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Speaker 1: to doing what you were doing beforehand?

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Speaker 2: I'm trying to remember. I don't think so. I was,

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Speaker 2: you know, I was really really really upset about some

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Speaker 2: things that in retrospect feel a little silly. So I've

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Speaker 2: never been a runner, Like in my entire life, I've

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Speaker 2: always hated running. I just find it miserable and painful

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Speaker 2: and Ryan, my husband, is a runner, and so he

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Speaker 2: had been like working with me on becoming a runner.

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Speaker 2: And the reason I even got the tick on me

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Speaker 2: in the first place is because I'd become so good

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Speaker 2: at running that I was running like three miles four

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Speaker 2: miles at a time, and we went for a run

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Speaker 2: in North Carolina in the woods and through the tall grass,

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Speaker 2: and that's where I got a tick on me. And

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Speaker 2: so after this experience, I was just like completely completely

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Speaker 2: fried and like couldn't do anything and felt like I

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Speaker 2: had no energy and no strength at all. And I

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Speaker 2: was like, oh my god, there goes all the progress

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Speaker 2: that I've made in becoming a runner and now I

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Speaker 2: have to start from square one again. I hate this,

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Speaker 2: Like I was just curious about that totally, and it

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Speaker 2: was just it's such a ridiculous thing to like focus

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Speaker 2: on when there's so many other like I should be

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Speaker 2: grateful to be alive, I should be that. I was

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Speaker 2: just pissed about like ruining my my like progress and running.

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Speaker 1: I think something that I've been working on personally since

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Speaker 1: early twenty eighteen was kind of dealing with this idea

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Speaker 1: that there are going to be a lot of things

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Speaker 1: in my life that I can't control, and sometimes I

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Speaker 1: just need to let it go and let them happen

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Speaker 1: and focus on the things that I can I earlier

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Speaker 1: this week, for instance, my MacBook. I opened it and

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Speaker 1: the screen had these huge purple lines on it. Oh,

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Speaker 1: and yeah, that's I mean, like that's the gut reaction.

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Speaker 1: It's like, no, and then you about all the things

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Speaker 1: you need to do with your MacBook that week. And

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Speaker 1: rather than and I don't know how I remain this calm,

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Speaker 1: but rather than like I think old Emily probably would

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Speaker 1: have cried, probably would have like called her dad in hysterics.

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Speaker 1: I literally just picked up the phone, texted my dad.

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Speaker 1: I was like, well, I think the display died, and

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Speaker 1: like it was just like, throw your hands up in

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Speaker 1: the air. Guess we got to make a genius bar

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Speaker 1: appointment and go to the Apple store and see what

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Speaker 1: you're gonna do. Like, there was nothing I could do

436
00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:27,640
Speaker 1: about it, right, And so rather than get upset or

437
00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:31,440
Speaker 1: freak out in my mind, Also, now everything's stored in

438
00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:34,760
Speaker 1: the cloud, so I was just like, well, if the

439
00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:37,840
Speaker 1: computer dies, the computer dies, and I guess we'll just

440
00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:40,840
Speaker 1: figure it out again. There's probably some privilege to that statement. Too, right.

441
00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:43,280
Speaker 1: It's like, for sure, I have the I am so

442
00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:46,119
Speaker 1: fortunate that I plan smart and I've saved all this

443
00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:47,960
Speaker 1: money and I can go to the Apple Store and

444
00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:49,760
Speaker 1: I have the ability to do all these things. You know,

445
00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:52,480
Speaker 1: So if you know she'd hit the fan, I would

446
00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:54,359
Speaker 1: have dealt with it. But sometimes you just got to

447
00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:56,399
Speaker 1: think of it that way totally. This is what I

448
00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:59,280
Speaker 1: can control now, this is what's worth getting upset about,

449
00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:00,600
Speaker 1: and this what isn't.

450
00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:02,119
Speaker 2: I'm still working on that.

451
00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:04,240
Speaker 1: I think we're all. I think we're all constantly working

452
00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:06,840
Speaker 1: on that. I understand being frustrated about not being able

453
00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:07,680
Speaker 1: to run, though.

454
00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:10,000
Speaker 2: I mean it's not it was. It was almost more

455
00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:12,560
Speaker 2: like I was just so frustrated because it was such

456
00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:14,680
Speaker 2: a miserable process getting to the point where like running

457
00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:16,800
Speaker 2: didn't totally suck. Yeah, And I was like, I am

458
00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:20,399
Speaker 2: actually enjoying this, maybe, like this is I don't I

459
00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:23,760
Speaker 2: don't even recognize myself anymore. I've literally never liked running

460
00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:26,159
Speaker 2: my entire life, and here I am, like actively choosing

461
00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:28,120
Speaker 2: to go on four mile runs. That's wild.

462
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:33,040
Speaker 1: I feel like most people actually share that same sentiment

463
00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:35,359
Speaker 1: before they quote unquote become a runner. Even though I

464
00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:38,000
Speaker 1: truly stand by the statement that everyone's a runner. If

465
00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:40,560
Speaker 1: you just like take a few steps, you can do it.

466
00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:43,560
Speaker 1: But I think that. I mean, I felt the same

467
00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:46,520
Speaker 1: way before I started running. I absolutely hated it. I

468
00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:48,720
Speaker 1: sucked at it. I couldn't go for more than like

469
00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:50,320
Speaker 1: one minute without getting out of breath.

470
00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:52,880
Speaker 2: So I just find it so painful, and I don't

471
00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:53,920
Speaker 2: like doing things that hurt.

472
00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:57,840
Speaker 1: I get it, I get it. I'm not mad at that. Okay,

473
00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:00,480
Speaker 1: so you're not a runner, but you're alive, still at

474
00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:05,520
Speaker 1: your job at Women's Health, and then you go to BuzzFeed. Right. Okay,

475
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:08,160
Speaker 1: so you're at BuzzFeed. You're the health editor at BuzzFeed.

476
00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:11,240
Speaker 2: Right. I launched the health vertical at BuzzFeed, which was

477
00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:14,080
Speaker 2: really exciting. I had been at Women's House for two years.

478
00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:18,040
Speaker 2: The editor in chief left. Basically, anytime any ic leaves,

479
00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:21,199
Speaker 2: there's always a ton of disruption and uncertainty, and so

480
00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:23,320
Speaker 2: I thought this was a good time to look and

481
00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:26,920
Speaker 2: see what else is out there, and BuzzFeed had like

482
00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:30,000
Speaker 2: a really enticing opportunity. It was interesting to me because

483
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:34,359
Speaker 2: it was a step down in title, and actually I

484
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:39,679
Speaker 2: stepped down in pay also not significantly, and so I

485
00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:42,560
Speaker 2: had to talk to my then husband about my husband

486
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:44,840
Speaker 2: about it to see if he was comfortable with that,

487
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:47,679
Speaker 2: if we could swing it, et cetera, et cetera. But

488
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:50,520
Speaker 2: to me, it felt like a really important move for

489
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:53,640
Speaker 2: my career because I wanted to go somewhere that at

490
00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:58,760
Speaker 2: the time was like the pioneer in digital and the

491
00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:02,240
Speaker 2: brand that everyone and was looking to as like leading

492
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:06,400
Speaker 2: the way and like what digital journalism or digital content

493
00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:08,320
Speaker 2: creation could be. So I was like, this is kind

494
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:12,640
Speaker 2: of like my grad school experience of learning and growing

495
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:14,960
Speaker 2: in my career, even if it means a step back

496
00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:16,040
Speaker 2: and a pay cut.

497
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:18,680
Speaker 1: All right, so you're at BuzzFeed and then from BuzzFeed

498
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:20,119
Speaker 1: you move to self.

499
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:22,360
Speaker 2: Yes, that is right.

500
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:24,760
Speaker 1: Okay, so when you started itself, what were you doing.

501
00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:29,600
Speaker 2: I came on in twenty fifteen to be the executive

502
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:31,760
Speaker 2: Digital director, which means that I was running digital for

503
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:35,080
Speaker 2: the brand. And that's when you and I overlapped, right, Yeah, yeah,

504
00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:38,440
Speaker 2: so you said twenty fifteen. At the end of twenty fifteen, yeah, wow,

505
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:41,119
Speaker 2: it feels like I know, I can't believe it.

506
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:44,000
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. Wow. Okay, yeah, so we overlap them,

507
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:48,000
Speaker 1: and you were overseeing digital and a lot has happened. Yes,

508
00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:51,399
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously I'm no longer itself. Self used to

509
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:54,719
Speaker 1: have a print magazine. That's no longer Self's now an

510
00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:58,120
Speaker 1: entirely digital brand. They're also, I mean, in the last

511
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:02,080
Speaker 1: year alone, it Self has a masked a crazy amount

512
00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:04,480
Speaker 1: of awards. You were on Adweek's hot List, Hottest in

513
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:07,720
Speaker 1: and Wellness and Fitness, you are. You got the National

514
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:10,000
Speaker 1: Magazine Award for Social Media. So a lot of things

515
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:12,880
Speaker 1: are happening itself and now at Self you're the editor

516
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 1: in chief. But it's not like that just happened overnight. No,

517
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:19,040
Speaker 1: So why don't we talk a little bit about that transition?

518
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:22,120
Speaker 1: And yeah, why don't we talk a little bit about

519
00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:22,600
Speaker 1: that transition.

520
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:26,800
Speaker 2: Sure, So just to back up a little bit to

521
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:32,240
Speaker 2: understand the brand history and context, Self is actually turning

522
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:35,240
Speaker 2: forty years old this year, Wow, which is wild to

523
00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:37,879
Speaker 2: think about. I grew up reading Self. I'm sure you

524
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:41,919
Speaker 2: did too. It was really it was the first or

525
00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:45,520
Speaker 2: one of the first female or women's fitness and health

526
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:50,919
Speaker 2: magazines and really a pioneer in the space. And if

527
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:53,320
Speaker 2: you if you're somebody who's paying any attention to what's

528
00:25:53,359 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 2: going on in media lately, you'll know that everything is chaos.

529
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:08,760
Speaker 2: Everything is chaos. It's just going The industry itself is

530
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:13,520
Speaker 2: going through a massive, massive disruption, and this has been

531
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:15,639
Speaker 2: going on for years now. I mean, we were just

532
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:19,400
Speaker 2: talking about BuzzFeed being the you know, pioneer and digital

533
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:24,119
Speaker 2: blah blah blah. That's part of that transition. But even they,

534
00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:28,359
Speaker 2: all digital native brands or whatever, are also going through chaos.

535
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:32,679
Speaker 2: At this point in time, Self had, you know, like

536
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 2: all other brands, was going through massive transition and deal

537
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:41,680
Speaker 2: and coping with the mounting challenges of this changing industry.

538
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:45,000
Speaker 2: And Self had for a few years. By the time

539
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:48,919
Speaker 2: I got there, been been a fairly challenged business. You know,

540
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:51,160
Speaker 2: it had a new e see, it had gone through

541
00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:55,520
Speaker 2: a few publishers, like all this stuff is public information.

542
00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 2: So I came on and they wanted me to turn

543
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:03,120
Speaker 2: the digital property around and build it up and see

544
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:07,400
Speaker 2: what we can do to help the brand. But unfortunately,

545
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 2: the business itself was becoming more and more unsustainable, and

546
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:16,960
Speaker 2: Conde Nast made the decision about a year after I

547
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 2: got there, to stop the stop publishing the brand in

548
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 2: print and make it a digital led brand. My boss

549
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:26,960
Speaker 2: called me into her office and she told me that

550
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:29,960
Speaker 2: the print publication was folding. I was going to be

551
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:34,720
Speaker 2: editor in chief very soon, and I had found out

552
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:37,720
Speaker 2: five days before that I was pregnant. She didn't know that, obviously,

553
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 2: but I just like was sitting in her office thinking, like,

554
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 2: Oh my god, so much is happening. I'm so nauseated

555
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:50,640
Speaker 2: right now now for multiple reasons, and there's so much

556
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,720
Speaker 2: work to do, and on top of that, it's just

557
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 2: it was a little it was a little devastating, right, Like,

558
00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:00,800
Speaker 2: I mean a lot devastating for everyone it was impacted,

559
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 2: including you. But it was just this like absolutely devastating

560
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:09,679
Speaker 2: moment of this brand that I loved and grew up

561
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:11,879
Speaker 2: loving was going to change so radically. And then on

562
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:15,040
Speaker 2: top of that, at the time, there had not been

563
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:17,960
Speaker 2: an example that I was aware of of a brand

564
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:21,200
Speaker 2: that started as a legacy print publication that successfully transitioned

565
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:23,760
Speaker 2: to digital and survived, and so I didn't know what

566
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:28,800
Speaker 2: success looked like. Pivoting to digital or whatever. Changing to

567
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:31,480
Speaker 2: digital led brand at that point in time in my

568
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:34,159
Speaker 2: head meant we're going to let it limp along for

569
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:36,399
Speaker 2: a little bit more and then we'll fold it completely.

570
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 2: And so it was this really, really, really scary moment

571
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:47,880
Speaker 2: that was like terrifying because I'm pregnant and devastating because

572
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 2: all these people who I know and care about and

573
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:54,240
Speaker 2: who I respect so tremendously are losing their jobs, and

574
00:28:54,960 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 2: incredibly anxiety provoking because I'm now responsible for a whole

575
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:03,760
Speaker 2: other group of people and all of their jobs and

576
00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 2: if I don't do this right, everyone's going to lose

577
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:07,080
Speaker 2: their jobs.

578
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:10,120
Speaker 1: It's also kind of crazy because I mean, as someone

579
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:12,400
Speaker 1: who's in the same industry, in the same field, was

580
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,840
Speaker 1: involved in that same transition, I think about being a

581
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 1: young girl and dreaming of being an editor in chief. Yeah,

582
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:22,920
Speaker 1: and like this moment for you being told by one

583
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:25,760
Speaker 1: of the biggest names in publishing that you're about to

584
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:29,760
Speaker 1: be the editor in chief. It's so loaded, right, it's

585
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:32,160
Speaker 1: not like what you probably ever dreamt of.

586
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:38,200
Speaker 2: No, totally, I mean exactly correct. Like I remember the

587
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 2: articles that were written about it, and there were so

588
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 2: many different headlines that could be used in those articles,

589
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:47,239
Speaker 2: and most of them were about the print meag folding, right,

590
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:49,920
Speaker 2: and some of them were about me being editor in chief.

591
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:53,640
Speaker 2: But it's like think about like I can't I felt

592
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:56,960
Speaker 2: like I couldn't celebrate because it wasn't really something to celebrate,

593
00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:01,480
Speaker 2: even though this was like easily the biggest accomplishment I

594
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:03,000
Speaker 2: guess you could say of my career, but like, what

595
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 2: a devastating accomplishment, and then on top of that, how scary.

596
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:10,920
Speaker 2: And on top of that, I'm so nauseated, like so nauseated,

597
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,720
Speaker 2: like five minutes from barfing one hundred percent of the time.

598
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 1: Recapping this like literally makes me want to cry. It's

599
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 1: just insane to really think about how equal parts exciting

600
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:21,240
Speaker 1: and devastating it is.

601
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and like it was more devastating than exciting,

602
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 2: to be totally honest with you. And and like I

603
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 2: would see, like, you know, we're friends with a ton

604
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:31,120
Speaker 2: of industry people on Facebook, and all these people were

605
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:34,480
Speaker 2: like eulogizing the magazine and everyone was talking about it

606
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:37,040
Speaker 2: like the brand was dead. Yeah, the brand was done,

607
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:40,920
Speaker 2: and like the something did go away that day. Obviously,

608
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:44,239
Speaker 2: you know, a part of the brand absolutely was no

609
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:46,680
Speaker 2: longer in existence, and that is something that deserved the

610
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:49,440
Speaker 2: eulogies that it got. But it was also kind of

611
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 2: it was like reading all these eulogies seeing like, oh, well,

612
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:56,680
Speaker 2: I'll miss it, It's gone forever. I'm like, you know,

613
00:30:57,320 --> 00:30:59,400
Speaker 2: there's actually like a whole bunch of people who still

614
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 2: have their jobs, who are working. And that was the

615
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:03,560
Speaker 2: other thing is that the day that it happened, half

616
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 2: the staff, as you remember.

617
00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:07,160
Speaker 1: I drank so many blendy Mars.

618
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 2: I think I did too. No, I didn't. I was pregnant,

619
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 2: so I did not do that. I'm like, I wish

620
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:15,880
Speaker 2: I had I wish I had the ability to it.

621
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 1: I drank a lot of bloody Marys.

622
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:20,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, you guys all went, and so like half the team, yes,

623
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 2: half the team went and had to pack their desks,

624
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 2: and the other half the team had to keep working.

625
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 2: And so it's like people crying and everyone crying and

626
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 2: all these poor digital editors like churning out content at

627
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:38,040
Speaker 2: the same time. It was just it was really dark

628
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:42,720
Speaker 2: and very bittersweet, and I feel weird telling the story

629
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:44,320
Speaker 2: because I don't want anyone to feel bad for me,

630
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 2: Like this is not something to like feel bad, Like,

631
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 2: I'm not asking for sympathy or anything like that, because

632
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:53,760
Speaker 2: I recognize again, like the position that I was in there,

633
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 2: which was keeping a job and getting elevated and so on,

634
00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:01,000
Speaker 2: in the face of so many talented people losing their jobs.

635
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:03,800
Speaker 1: Totally. And I mean to say at the very least

636
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 1: that this is a hurdle moment would be an understatement,

637
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 1: because you are all of a sudden presented with this

638
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 1: brand and now you are the person at the helm

639
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:14,479
Speaker 1: who has the opportunity to decide the direction that this

640
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:17,880
Speaker 1: brand goes, while so many people are, like you said,

641
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 1: eulogizing the brand, talking about self being done, and it's like, no,

642
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 1: now is our chance for self to be reborn?

643
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 2: Right, And at the time I was thinking, I was

644
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 2: thinking a few things. First was that I like, it

645
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:35,760
Speaker 2: wasn't really so much about a rebirth as just like survival.

646
00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:36,240
Speaker 1: Yeah.

647
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:38,680
Speaker 2: Year one was really like, oh shit, how do we

648
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:40,960
Speaker 2: how do we survive this? How do we survive into

649
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 2: year two?

650
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:42,120
Speaker 1: Yeah?

651
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:44,600
Speaker 2: And there were so many challenges that we faced, not

652
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 2: really anybody's fault. It's like it just hadn't been done before,

653
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:50,239
Speaker 2: and so we just made a ton of mistakes that

654
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:55,360
Speaker 2: in retrospect, I like, if anybody's going to go in

655
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 2: this direction, I think a lot of brands in the

656
00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 2: future will go in this direction. I could give you

657
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,680
Speaker 2: really good advice about how to how to avoid some

658
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:06,800
Speaker 2: of the things that we went through, But we learned

659
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:09,640
Speaker 2: a lot and we survived. But like, the main thing

660
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:12,680
Speaker 2: I was focusing on at that time was, Okay, how

661
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:16,280
Speaker 2: do we survive and how do I and what is

662
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 2: required for that survival? And to me it was a

663
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:20,720
Speaker 2: few things. One was like changing that perception in the

664
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 2: industry that we were gone, Like, this was really important

665
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:26,240
Speaker 2: that people didn't feel like we were gone completely. It's

666
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:29,040
Speaker 2: important from an advertising perspective, you want your advertisers to

667
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:32,120
Speaker 2: feel comfortable, and so it was really really important that

668
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:34,560
Speaker 2: they knew who we were and that we were still here.

669
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:36,720
Speaker 2: It was also really important that our peers in the

670
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 2: industry knew that we were still there. From like just

671
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 2: a retaining people perspective and also recruiting new people perspective, right, So,

672
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 2: how do It's really hard to keep people wanting to

673
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:52,040
Speaker 2: work for your company or your brand or your team

674
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 2: if they feel like their job is in danger, they

675
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:56,760
Speaker 2: feel like they're going to get laid off any minute,

676
00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,240
Speaker 2: you know. And it's also really hard to recruit people

677
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:02,360
Speaker 2: to a brand that they're worried is not going to

678
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 2: be around for much longer. Right, And so those were

679
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:07,280
Speaker 2: some big concerns that I had tied to, Like the

680
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:09,120
Speaker 2: news of like the brand is folding and you're like,

681
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 2: oh crap, that's like not the messaging that we need

682
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:16,040
Speaker 2: to be conveying. So how do we share a different

683
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:17,960
Speaker 2: version of that story? How do we talk about this

684
00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:22,040
Speaker 2: like it's actually an amazing opportunity as opposed to something

685
00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 2: really scary. So that was like step one is like

686
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:26,399
Speaker 2: how do we change this narrative? And then step two

687
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 2: was there was some confusion over what the brand stood

688
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:33,279
Speaker 2: for because you know, which is what happens when you

689
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:37,239
Speaker 2: go through a rapid succession of new leadership, right, Like

690
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,280
Speaker 2: there had been a number of editors in the past

691
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:43,719
Speaker 2: few years, and so there was some confusion over like, well,

692
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:46,759
Speaker 2: what is the brand? And in the meantime, as you

693
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:50,400
Speaker 2: well know, wellness is so so so buzzy and everyone

694
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:52,680
Speaker 2: is talking about wellness, and so how do you compete

695
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:55,880
Speaker 2: in a really really crowded space And so that was

696
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:58,640
Speaker 2: super super important too, to figure out how do we

697
00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:01,040
Speaker 2: differentiate this brand in a way that people are going

698
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:04,640
Speaker 2: to recognize when they see this wellness content? Oh, I

699
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:10,239
Speaker 2: know that that self right, and defining the brand really

700
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:13,480
Speaker 2: clearly also goes a long way and helping people realize

701
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:15,279
Speaker 2: that we're still there, and it also goes a long

702
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:17,560
Speaker 2: way and helping people who are on the team feel

703
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 2: like they belong to something bigger than themselves and feel

704
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:23,239
Speaker 2: like they belong to something that they really believe in

705
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:28,160
Speaker 2: and value and are excited about. Right So, defining the

706
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 2: brand and like what it means to be a health

707
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 2: brand in a digital only space was super super important

708
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:36,400
Speaker 2: to do as part of that narrative.

709
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:43,120
Speaker 1: A quick break from today's episode to give the sponsor,

710
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:46,120
Speaker 1: Athletic Greens a little bit of love. I know I

711
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:50,000
Speaker 1: mentioned traveling a lot today, but I'm telling you, if

712
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 1: there's one thing that makes me feel like a better

713
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,840
Speaker 1: me when I'm constantly on the go, it's grabbing a

714
00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:59,080
Speaker 1: packet of Athletic Greens first thing in the morning. This way,

715
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:03,560
Speaker 1: no matter what business, dinners, lunches, coffees, meals, ice creams,

716
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:06,200
Speaker 1: whatever I have on tap for the day, I at

717
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:08,880
Speaker 1: least know that I'm getting in twelve servings of fruits

718
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:13,000
Speaker 1: and vegetables, no questions asked. Athletic Greens is offering Hurdle

719
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:17,280
Speaker 1: listeners a special deal. It's twenty travel packs for free,

720
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:20,279
Speaker 1: a ninety nine dollars value with your first purchase. Just

721
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:22,960
Speaker 1: head on over to athleticgreens dot com slash hurdle to

722
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:27,319
Speaker 1: claim it no code necessary Again, that's Athleticgreens dot com

723
00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:37,799
Speaker 1: slash hurdle. Let's get back to it. I'm back here

724
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:41,400
Speaker 1: sitting with Carolyn Kilstra. She's the editor in chief of Self,

725
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 1: and we're talking now about the direction that the brand

726
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 1: is going to go in after the print kind of

727
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:49,680
Speaker 1: goes by the wayside. So I went to the site

728
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 1: earlier today. I see a woman that's probably over two

729
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:55,399
Speaker 1: hundred pounds doing some barbell movements, and I can say

730
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:58,320
Speaker 1: without a doubt that two years ago when I was itself,

731
00:36:58,360 --> 00:36:59,800
Speaker 1: that's probably not something you would have seen on the

732
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:02,120
Speaker 1: of the website. And so I think there's something really

733
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:05,279
Speaker 1: special to be said for the direction you guys are

734
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:09,120
Speaker 1: going in terms of inclusivity, in terms of body acceptance

735
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:12,000
Speaker 1: and body positivity. I'd love if you could just shed

736
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 1: a little bit of light about the direction you guys

737
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:16,520
Speaker 1: are going and how you've come to define the brand

738
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:18,600
Speaker 1: as time has kind of progressed here totally.

739
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:21,760
Speaker 2: I'm really glad you noticed our homepage and the imagery

740
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:23,239
Speaker 2: that we have on the site. It's something that we've

741
00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:27,719
Speaker 2: been really intentional about and incredibly focused on as part

742
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:34,439
Speaker 2: of the inclusivity component of our values. When we were

743
00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:37,239
Speaker 2: doing the work that first year laying the foundation, a

744
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 2: really important thing we did was we redefine the mission,

745
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:43,160
Speaker 2: and then we redefined our values. And then we've you know,

746
00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:46,360
Speaker 2: in the in aiming for differentiation, like it's so important

747
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:48,840
Speaker 2: to be differentiated such a crowded market. We need to

748
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:51,879
Speaker 2: stand out, we need to be singular, and in doing that,

749
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:54,000
Speaker 2: it was really important that every single thing we did

750
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:56,720
Speaker 2: laddered up to that mission in those values, that mission

751
00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:59,840
Speaker 2: is self as a health brand. Our goal is to

752
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:03,799
Speaker 2: help people live healthier lives, whatever that looks like to them.

753
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:08,440
Speaker 2: And in order to do that effectively, in order to

754
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 2: live up to that mission, we have four values. Inclusivity

755
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:14,960
Speaker 2: because you can't help people who don't feel welcome in

756
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:19,000
Speaker 2: your world. Accuracy because it's not helpful if it's not true,

757
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:23,000
Speaker 2: Like there's so much nonsense out there, and it's nonsense

758
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:25,880
Speaker 2: for the sake of supposedly empowerment, but it's not empowering

759
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:28,160
Speaker 2: if you're getting in the way of somebody actually getting

760
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:32,839
Speaker 2: the treatment that they need. So inclusivity, accuracy, Empathy because

761
00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:36,120
Speaker 2: everyone's just trying their best, and people want to feel

762
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:38,360
Speaker 2: seen and heard and they don't want to feel judged.

763
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:41,520
Speaker 2: And then autonomy, which is a really important one and

764
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:44,440
Speaker 2: is basically, your body is your business, and what you

765
00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:47,799
Speaker 2: do with it is yours is your choice, and we're

766
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:50,759
Speaker 2: here to help you understand those choices that you make

767
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:55,880
Speaker 2: so you can do them as safely and healthfully as possible.

768
00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:56,720
Speaker 1: Period.

769
00:38:56,880 --> 00:38:59,719
Speaker 2: So we realize that we have these values, all of

770
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:02,799
Speaker 2: our content is really lattering up to that, but the

771
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:04,959
Speaker 2: way our site looked, in the way our content looked,

772
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:08,240
Speaker 2: didn't kind of reflect that because primarily we were using

773
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:11,200
Speaker 2: you know, getty stock photography, which all looks the same,

774
00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:14,320
Speaker 2: et cetera, et cetera, and we do all these workouts,

775
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:18,319
Speaker 2: but they all still used fitness models because that was

776
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 2: the easy thing to do, and we knew how to

777
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:23,520
Speaker 2: do that, and so we very intentionally made changes to

778
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:27,799
Speaker 2: our original photography. We decided that we had to change

779
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:30,399
Speaker 2: the way we were shooting our workouts, so we did

780
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:34,720
Speaker 2: a casting call for non model fitness enthusiasts and hundreds

781
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 2: of people came out and tried out, and we basically

782
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:39,319
Speaker 2: wanted to see did they have good form? That was

783
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:43,839
Speaker 2: the thing that mattered, and so we cast twenty five

784
00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:45,799
Speaker 2: to thirty people I can't remember. We cast twenty five

785
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:49,000
Speaker 2: to thirty people to shoot hundreds of moves and many

786
00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:52,200
Speaker 2: different specific workouts, and we've created basically a year's work

787
00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:57,200
Speaker 2: of workout content featuring people whose bodies look like your body, right,

788
00:39:57,239 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 2: who look like my body, who look like other people's bodies.

789
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:01,360
Speaker 2: Like you can look at our workout content or fitness

790
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:04,319
Speaker 2: content and it looks like humanity. And that's really, really,

791
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:06,520
Speaker 2: really important because the truth is that fitness should be

792
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:09,320
Speaker 2: for everyone. I know you believe that, and so why

793
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:10,200
Speaker 2: don't we see that?

794
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:12,560
Speaker 1: Right? I think that was probably one of the hardest

795
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 1: things for me as I was losing weight, especially in

796
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:18,680
Speaker 1: a time where social media wasn't as prevalent. The outlets

797
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:22,200
Speaker 1: I was looking to they didn't have anyone that looked

798
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:23,719
Speaker 1: like me. When I would go into the stores that

799
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:25,920
Speaker 1: I would shop at, none of the stores on the

800
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:29,160
Speaker 1: walls had anyone. At the time, I was a size

801
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:32,360
Speaker 1: sixteen bigger, No one had a size sixteen on the wall.

802
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:34,200
Speaker 1: No one had anyone that looked like me. I felt

803
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:37,719
Speaker 1: like I was completely alone and doing everything wrong. And

804
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:39,960
Speaker 1: now to go to a site like self and go

805
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:43,319
Speaker 1: to that homepage and see this like beautiful woman on

806
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:45,560
Speaker 1: the front lifting a barbell and she's so proud and

807
00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:48,239
Speaker 1: she's rocking it. It's like, I can do that.

808
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:50,040
Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure that woman who you're talking about is

809
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:52,399
Speaker 2: a competitive powerlifter. Like that's the other thing. She's a

810
00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:55,640
Speaker 2: real athlete. She's amazing. The other thing that we've done

811
00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:58,719
Speaker 2: is we've shot our own stock photography. We've done eight

812
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:03,120
Speaker 2: separate stock photo shoot. It's featuring a diverse range of

813
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:07,200
Speaker 2: body types and races and ethnicities, you know, just to

814
00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:10,080
Speaker 2: make sure that when you see our content, you know

815
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:11,000
Speaker 2: that's self content.

816
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:13,239
Speaker 1: What I'm kind of interested in as you're kind of

817
00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:16,400
Speaker 1: homing in on what selfs brand is, how are you

818
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:19,960
Speaker 1: doing at this time? Let's talk a little bit about you,

819
00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:23,879
Speaker 1: because talk about first of all and your first year

820
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:27,839
Speaker 1: establishing yourself that you're still there while this is all

821
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:30,520
Speaker 1: going on, You're having a baby.

822
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:34,080
Speaker 2: Yes, I'm getting increasingly pregnant by the day. I actually

823
00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:36,839
Speaker 2: I guess you're pregnant one hundred percent the entire time,

824
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:39,600
Speaker 2: but I'm getting my belly is growing every day, let's put.

825
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:39,879
Speaker 1: It that way.

826
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:42,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, so the first try I don't know

827
00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:47,200
Speaker 2: if you're familiar with like things that are standard per trimester.

828
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:50,480
Speaker 2: I mean, everybody's pregnancy is obviously different, but like for me,

829
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:53,520
Speaker 2: it was fairly standard. The first trimester was really rough

830
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:56,680
Speaker 2: in that I had this morning sickness that just lasted

831
00:41:56,719 --> 00:42:00,080
Speaker 2: all day long, all the time. And on top of that,

832
00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:03,600
Speaker 2: so I was just nauseated one hundred percent of the time.

833
00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:08,040
Speaker 2: And on top of that, I was just like extremely tired.

834
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:11,040
Speaker 2: That's like that's how you feel. You just feel exhausted

835
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:14,680
Speaker 2: and nauseated. I was lucky that I wasn't actually barfing,

836
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:19,920
Speaker 2: Like I have friends who had really really severe vomiting

837
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:23,280
Speaker 2: during pregnancy, and I can't imagine being able to function

838
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:26,000
Speaker 2: yeah with that. So I was lucky in that regard,

839
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:29,440
Speaker 2: but it was certainly unpleasant. Second trimester is actually great.

840
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:32,920
Speaker 2: You get your energy back. I got my energy back.

841
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:37,759
Speaker 2: I stopped feeling so nauseated, and it felt like I

842
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:40,160
Speaker 2: was a new person. So that was really nice. And

843
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:42,279
Speaker 2: you're also like not so big at that point in

844
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:45,080
Speaker 2: time that like things really really hurt. But then the

845
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:47,240
Speaker 2: third time mister comes around and you're like, oh my god,

846
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:51,319
Speaker 2: walking is like waddling now, and this is painful, and

847
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:54,120
Speaker 2: I can't sleep, and you're anxious about not sleeping because

848
00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:55,719
Speaker 2: you know that when the baby comes, you're really not

849
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:56,360
Speaker 2: going to sleep.

850
00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:57,759
Speaker 1: And so.

851
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:04,360
Speaker 2: During this whole prop it was kind of an interesting experience,

852
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:06,359
Speaker 2: just like being in my body, you know what I mean,

853
00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:10,560
Speaker 2: and being like, what's going on today? This is weird? Yeah,

854
00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:14,799
Speaker 2: totally or freaky or scary or interesting or whatever. So

855
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:16,720
Speaker 2: it was just it was a lot of change happening

856
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:17,560
Speaker 2: all at the same time.

857
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:20,239
Speaker 1: And while you're dealing with all of that change personally,

858
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:23,080
Speaker 1: you're also dealing with all this change itself. And so

859
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:26,960
Speaker 1: how did you feel like that really impacted your ability

860
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:27,879
Speaker 1: to show up?

861
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:32,319
Speaker 2: I think again, I was really lucky. I just like,

862
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:34,560
Speaker 2: like a common thread here throughout the whole thing is

863
00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:38,120
Speaker 2: that I just feel incredibly incredibly lucky because I was

864
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:42,239
Speaker 2: able to being the boss meant that I was able

865
00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:44,879
Speaker 2: to set my own hours. Something that my mom has

866
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:47,720
Speaker 2: said throughout my entire life. My mom had four kids.

867
00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:51,839
Speaker 2: She was like this, she still is. She's just incredibly

868
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:57,160
Speaker 2: incredibly successful doctor and scientist. And she was the dean

869
00:43:57,200 --> 00:43:59,400
Speaker 2: of a medical school at one point, and people always

870
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:02,359
Speaker 2: asked her, like, how do you balance it all? And

871
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:05,719
Speaker 2: and her answer I thought was like fairly honest, which

872
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:08,200
Speaker 2: is like, you know, when you're the boss, you have

873
00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:10,560
Speaker 2: a lot more flexibility, and you also have a lot

874
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:14,239
Speaker 2: more financial ability, right like you have you just have

875
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:17,439
Speaker 2: the flexibility and the freedom to like have the help

876
00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:20,239
Speaker 2: you need and to set your hours. And it's like

877
00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:24,160
Speaker 2: there's not really advice there because it's you know what

878
00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:26,040
Speaker 2: you can. Not everybody is going to be able to

879
00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:28,520
Speaker 2: be the boss. I think like it's more it's more

880
00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:31,520
Speaker 2: of an insight into like the messed up nature of

881
00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:35,799
Speaker 2: our system that like that like only the well to

882
00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:40,600
Speaker 2: do or privileged can can really even get close to

883
00:44:41,239 --> 00:44:43,400
Speaker 2: having it all, you know what I mean, or balancing

884
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:45,719
Speaker 2: it in that regard. But I thought about that a

885
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:50,520
Speaker 2: lot during that during my pregnancy, like when I would

886
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:53,000
Speaker 2: go to my doctor's appointments, which got more frequent the

887
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:54,880
Speaker 2: farther along and new pregnancies you get, I'm like, I'm

888
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:57,680
Speaker 2: really lucky that I don't have somebody breathing down my

889
00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:00,560
Speaker 2: neck and checking when I'm working at all, or like

890
00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:04,080
Speaker 2: let's say, you know, I was just feeling so nauseated

891
00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:06,120
Speaker 2: and I decided to work from bed one morning, Like

892
00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:08,439
Speaker 2: I was really lucky that I could do that right

893
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:11,960
Speaker 2: and not have to worry about calling and sick or

894
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:14,080
Speaker 2: asking a boss for permission to work from home like

895
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:17,440
Speaker 2: that sort of thing. I don't know if that answered

896
00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:18,040
Speaker 2: your question, but.

897
00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:19,600
Speaker 1: That's what it does. It does, And I also think,

898
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:21,759
Speaker 1: I mean, this kind of carries over into when you

899
00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:24,920
Speaker 1: actually had your baby and you actually took a maternity leave,

900
00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:26,839
Speaker 1: which was probably a lot of pressure at the time

901
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:30,040
Speaker 1: for you because you're in the middle of building this

902
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:35,920
Speaker 1: crazy brand, and I think because it's a wellness brand,

903
00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:39,759
Speaker 1: you probably feel an equal amount of pressure to do

904
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:42,040
Speaker 1: what you're supposed to do for you and your family,

905
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:44,120
Speaker 1: which is take some time and take a step back.

906
00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:47,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I do that. I felt like it

907
00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:49,400
Speaker 2: was definitely something I wanted to do, you know what

908
00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:51,120
Speaker 2: I mean. Like that wasn't about like, oh, I have

909
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:52,560
Speaker 2: to do the right thing here. That was like, I

910
00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:55,520
Speaker 2: need a break. I became editor in chief and I

911
00:45:55,560 --> 00:46:00,000
Speaker 2: worked every single day between that day and giving birth

912
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:03,080
Speaker 2: to my baby. I did not take a single day off.

913
00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:05,560
Speaker 2: That's including the weekends, which I would not advise. I

914
00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:07,920
Speaker 2: do not advocate this is not a smart or healthy

915
00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:10,839
Speaker 2: way to be, But at the time I felt like,

916
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:14,120
Speaker 2: I need to lay this groundwork and build up a

917
00:46:15,719 --> 00:46:20,759
Speaker 2: self sustaining business before I so that so that I

918
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:23,560
Speaker 2: can hand it off and feel comfortable handing it off.

919
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:28,120
Speaker 2: And part of that involved training or executive editor in

920
00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:31,439
Speaker 2: like my day to day job duties so that when

921
00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:33,680
Speaker 2: I went on maternity leave, she could fill in for me, right,

922
00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:36,920
Speaker 2: so she could step in and handle the task, and

923
00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:39,480
Speaker 2: then we would hire somebody to replace her. You know,

924
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:42,320
Speaker 2: that felt to me like a safer bet than hiring

925
00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:44,839
Speaker 2: some somebody from the outside to come in, because it's

926
00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:46,880
Speaker 2: just easier to navigate the building when you know all

927
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:50,279
Speaker 2: the players, right. So that was always something like from

928
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:52,640
Speaker 2: the minute I got pregnant, I was like, I need

929
00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:54,640
Speaker 2: to think about how I'm going to take this maternity

930
00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:56,480
Speaker 2: leave and how I'm going to set it up so

931
00:46:56,520 --> 00:46:59,520
Speaker 2: that I can take a maternity leave. But setting it

932
00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:01,480
Speaker 2: up and getting to the point where I could delegate

933
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:04,000
Speaker 2: required working my ass off.

934
00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:07,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally totally. So you work your ass off and

935
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:12,000
Speaker 1: you're taking your maternity leave, and do you feel all sorts?

936
00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:14,759
Speaker 1: Do you still check in? Oh?

937
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:17,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh totally. Like let I don't let don't be fool.

938
00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:22,040
Speaker 2: Let's be clear here about what it meant for me

939
00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:24,040
Speaker 2: to take an attorney leave, which is to say that

940
00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 2: I took a maternity leave, but I checked in. I

941
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:32,400
Speaker 2: had weekly, like half hour to hour long meetings with

942
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:35,400
Speaker 2: several of my direct reports, like once a week to

943
00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:39,040
Speaker 2: kind of help give them guidance or answer any questions,

944
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:41,880
Speaker 2: help them figure out how to put out fires. But

945
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:45,479
Speaker 2: like that was at most like three hours of work

946
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:49,799
Speaker 2: per week, right, And I was worried at the time

947
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:51,440
Speaker 2: that was going to be too much, And honestly, it

948
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:54,400
Speaker 2: was kind of nice. I really enjoyed it because it

949
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:56,480
Speaker 2: helped me feel connected still with what was going on.

950
00:47:57,200 --> 00:48:01,040
Speaker 2: And also like, like people talk about you never getting

951
00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:03,359
Speaker 2: any sleep when you are a new mom, and that's

952
00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:06,240
Speaker 2: totally true. But like during the day, the baby sleeps

953
00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:08,440
Speaker 2: like all day long, right, Like the baby not my

954
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:12,200
Speaker 2: baby slept a lot and during the day asterisk during

955
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:14,560
Speaker 2: the day, and I slept a lot too when she

956
00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:16,319
Speaker 2: was sleeping. But there were sometimes when I was just

957
00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:17,719
Speaker 2: like what am I doing? Like, so I watched I

958
00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:20,400
Speaker 2: also watched a lot of grays anatomy, right, So I

959
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:23,640
Speaker 2: didn't mind checking in and helping out and so on,

960
00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:26,080
Speaker 2: And I thought it was actually a really really good

961
00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:29,320
Speaker 2: lesson for everybody involved. It helped me learn to delegate

962
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:31,520
Speaker 2: more and like let go a little bit of like

963
00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:33,920
Speaker 2: the details, like I don't need I only need to

964
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:36,839
Speaker 2: know the most important things, and it helped. It gave

965
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:39,920
Speaker 2: the deputies on my team the autonomy to make the

966
00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:42,640
Speaker 2: decisions that they needed to make without having to get

967
00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:45,520
Speaker 2: approval from me. Right, So I think it was hopefully

968
00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:47,839
Speaker 2: a good experience for everybody, or at least a learning

969
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:48,960
Speaker 2: experience for everybody.

970
00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:52,600
Speaker 1: Definitely, And what would you say overall? That the climate

971
00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:56,280
Speaker 1: is working itself like working at a super healthy, fuzzy

972
00:48:56,400 --> 00:48:57,320
Speaker 1: wellness brand.

973
00:48:57,800 --> 00:49:01,640
Speaker 2: So one of the things, it's hard to talk about

974
00:49:01,640 --> 00:49:04,400
Speaker 2: the climate itself without talking about the climate in media

975
00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:06,560
Speaker 2: in general. And I keep coming back to this.

976
00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:08,240
Speaker 1: It's tough time, Carolyn.

977
00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:11,160
Speaker 2: I don't know if you knew. I don't know if

978
00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:11,439
Speaker 2: you knew.

979
00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:12,239
Speaker 1: Uh So.

980
00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:19,480
Speaker 2: Knowing how chaotic the media industry is and understanding what

981
00:49:19,520 --> 00:49:22,760
Speaker 2: that can do to somebody's anxiety or mental health.

982
00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:25,400
Speaker 1: Also, sorry, just to interject for a second, I think

983
00:49:25,840 --> 00:49:29,440
Speaker 1: if someone's listening, they might not understand like the depth

984
00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:32,440
Speaker 1: of what we're saying here about being chaotic. Yes, like

985
00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:36,680
Speaker 1: every industry is chaotic. But self folded the magazine two

986
00:49:36,719 --> 00:49:39,800
Speaker 1: years ago, and that is just one of a flurry

987
00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:44,400
Speaker 1: of print publication shuttering. There's so much chaos around where

988
00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:47,760
Speaker 1: the traffic's coming from. There's players like Facebook and Instagram

989
00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:50,480
Speaker 1: and social media as a whole that have the power

990
00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:54,200
Speaker 1: to decide or impact where the traffic is coming from.

991
00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:56,759
Speaker 1: And so I think that's just the industry as a

992
00:49:56,760 --> 00:49:58,400
Speaker 1: whole is really in flux.

993
00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:01,800
Speaker 2: It's really in flux. There's a lot of questions about

994
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:04,640
Speaker 2: where the revenue is coming from, which is really the

995
00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:10,120
Speaker 2: scary thing. You know, the brands are amazing, but if

996
00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:11,759
Speaker 2: you know, you can have an amazing brand that you

997
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:13,920
Speaker 2: have a really hard time monetizing. And I think a

998
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:15,800
Speaker 2: lot of brands have seen that, and you see and

999
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:18,719
Speaker 2: like the real Like when I talk about chaos, I'm

1000
00:50:18,719 --> 00:50:22,880
Speaker 2: talking about layoffs across the board at every company everywhere

1001
00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:27,040
Speaker 2: on a regular basis, and entire brands that people absolutely

1002
00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:30,719
Speaker 2: love just folding completely. Like Rookie just folded right, and

1003
00:50:30,719 --> 00:50:32,839
Speaker 2: that has been around for like seven years and had

1004
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:35,960
Speaker 2: a celebrity leading it and all this stuff.

1005
00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:37,440
Speaker 1: And Glamor just went digital.

1006
00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:39,359
Speaker 2: Glamor just went digital only, which is like the end

1007
00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:42,759
Speaker 2: of an era teen Fogue went digital only tons of

1008
00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:47,239
Speaker 2: brands red Book, Yes, Like it's like it's like it's

1009
00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:50,160
Speaker 2: maybe like more brands have gone digital or folded than

1010
00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:52,040
Speaker 2: are still around. I mean that's not true, but like

1011
00:50:52,080 --> 00:50:54,920
Speaker 2: it feels like it, and it's really scary and it

1012
00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:58,440
Speaker 2: means that it means that jobs are getting scarcer, and

1013
00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:00,920
Speaker 2: the jobs that people have they feel really insecure. And

1014
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:03,400
Speaker 2: it's and everyone knows people have been laid off and

1015
00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:05,520
Speaker 2: like people tell these it's like gallows humor about like,

1016
00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:06,680
Speaker 2: well when are you going to get laid off?

1017
00:51:06,680 --> 00:51:06,880
Speaker 1: Have you?

1018
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:09,040
Speaker 2: How many times have you been laid off? Like we

1019
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:11,920
Speaker 2: have right, right, and we we have a friend I

1020
00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:14,240
Speaker 2: don't know if you are you friends with Andy Andy

1021
00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:17,920
Speaker 2: Bart's No. Oh so Andy Barts is amazing. She just

1022
00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:21,680
Speaker 2: wrote a book. It's great, and but she's worked at

1023
00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:24,120
Speaker 2: five magazines in her career and every single one of

1024
00:51:24,120 --> 00:51:24,720
Speaker 2: them has folded.

1025
00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:25,200
Speaker 1: Wow.

1026
00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:27,640
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, So so that's like the state of the industry.

1027
00:51:27,640 --> 00:51:29,800
Speaker 2: Like look at Andy Bart's career. She's now a novelist

1028
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:30,560
Speaker 2: and she's phenomenal.

1029
00:51:30,560 --> 00:51:34,960
Speaker 1: But okay, so self right, so sell what we can

1030
00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:37,280
Speaker 1: talk about how hard it is to be publishing forever?

1031
00:51:37,480 --> 00:51:39,440
Speaker 2: No, I know so, but I think it's related because

1032
00:51:39,480 --> 00:51:41,799
Speaker 2: so you're like, how do you how do people what's

1033
00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:42,640
Speaker 2: the atmosphere there?

1034
00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:43,279
Speaker 1: Like, right?

1035
00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:45,520
Speaker 2: And so what I think about all the time is

1036
00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:49,239
Speaker 2: things itself are actually great, Like we are doing incredibly well.

1037
00:51:49,280 --> 00:51:53,520
Speaker 2: We've doubled revenue, we're profitable, were we've reached traffic higher

1038
00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:55,520
Speaker 2: than we've ever had, our video views are higher than

1039
00:51:55,520 --> 00:51:58,799
Speaker 2: they've ever had, We've won all these awards. But it's

1040
00:51:59,080 --> 00:52:01,480
Speaker 2: still a really scary time to be in this industry.

1041
00:52:01,719 --> 00:52:07,000
Speaker 2: And so I think about that all the time. How

1042
00:52:07,040 --> 00:52:09,040
Speaker 2: do I how can I be a good manager to

1043
00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:12,759
Speaker 2: the point where people feel excited about working here and

1044
00:52:13,239 --> 00:52:16,480
Speaker 2: everyone knows that it's scary, but they feel like the

1045
00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:19,800
Speaker 2: anxiety is worth it, right, right, And so there's a

1046
00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:21,759
Speaker 2: lot of different things that we do, Like we have

1047
00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:25,840
Speaker 2: really flexible working environment. You can work from home whenever

1048
00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:27,880
Speaker 2: you want, anytime you want, no questions asked, as long

1049
00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:30,719
Speaker 2: as you're getting your work done and communicating effectively. We

1050
00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:33,399
Speaker 2: have a few people working entirely remotely because they're great,

1051
00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:38,600
Speaker 2: because they do a great job, you know, I do.

1052
00:52:38,880 --> 00:52:41,600
Speaker 2: I'm really intentional about trying not to hire assholes, Like

1053
00:52:41,719 --> 00:52:44,959
Speaker 2: I just think like one bad person. One person who's

1054
00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:46,799
Speaker 2: a mean person or a toxic person can like really

1055
00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:49,160
Speaker 2: ruin an atmosphere. And it's really important that everyone I

1056
00:52:49,239 --> 00:52:52,720
Speaker 2: hire is a kind person who's like supportive of other people,

1057
00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:54,840
Speaker 2: because I want people to be excited about coming to

1058
00:52:54,880 --> 00:52:57,480
Speaker 2: work or feel good about who they work with things

1059
00:52:57,520 --> 00:53:00,840
Speaker 2: like that. I also think like a good work environment

1060
00:53:00,880 --> 00:53:02,520
Speaker 2: also kind of has to do with just like good

1061
00:53:02,560 --> 00:53:06,040
Speaker 2: management one oh one, So being clear about what the

1062
00:53:06,080 --> 00:53:10,080
Speaker 2: expectations are for somebody's job, giving clear feedback. Nobody should

1063
00:53:10,120 --> 00:53:13,799
Speaker 2: be surprised if they're confronted with like not doing a

1064
00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:17,000
Speaker 2: good job. They should know if they're meeting their expectations

1065
00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:17,239
Speaker 2: or not.

1066
00:53:17,360 --> 00:53:19,680
Speaker 1: And they like mental health is caing itself.

1067
00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:22,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think just like taking care of yourself,

1068
00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:24,160
Speaker 2: taking sick days if you need to, even if you're

1069
00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:26,759
Speaker 2: not physically sick, if you're if you're having if you

1070
00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:28,480
Speaker 2: need a mental health day, take a mental health day,

1071
00:53:28,520 --> 00:53:29,880
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, that sort of thing. And

1072
00:53:29,920 --> 00:53:32,200
Speaker 2: then obviously we always like a ton of we have

1073
00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:35,040
Speaker 2: like three personal trainers on staff, so like fitness, people

1074
00:53:35,040 --> 00:53:37,480
Speaker 2: care about fitness a lot, and and there's all that,

1075
00:53:37,560 --> 00:53:43,360
Speaker 2: but like we really live by our belief that health

1076
00:53:43,560 --> 00:53:45,840
Speaker 2: is different for everybody. It means something different for everyone,

1077
00:53:45,920 --> 00:53:49,319
Speaker 2: and and you know, it's important to prioritize your health

1078
00:53:49,360 --> 00:53:50,440
Speaker 2: and well being totally.

1079
00:53:50,520 --> 00:53:52,720
Speaker 1: If you had to look back right now on your

1080
00:53:52,960 --> 00:53:55,440
Speaker 1: career as a whole, I mean, obviously you're in this

1081
00:53:55,719 --> 00:53:58,280
Speaker 1: the helm of this major wellness brand and people probably

1082
00:53:58,320 --> 00:54:00,680
Speaker 1: come to you for advice all the time. If you

1083
00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:02,680
Speaker 1: had to reflect back on some of the best advice

1084
00:54:02,719 --> 00:54:06,279
Speaker 1: that you've been offered in your career, what would you

1085
00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:08,640
Speaker 1: what would you tell the people?

1086
00:54:08,880 --> 00:54:12,560
Speaker 2: I still think that the best advice I've the best

1087
00:54:12,560 --> 00:54:15,400
Speaker 2: advice I ever got was from Adam Campbell at Men's

1088
00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:19,600
Speaker 2: Health when I was like very, very junior, and I

1089
00:54:19,680 --> 00:54:22,120
Speaker 2: made some crack about how well I was. I didn't

1090
00:54:22,160 --> 00:54:24,400
Speaker 2: go into journalism for the money, and he was like,

1091
00:54:24,640 --> 00:54:27,360
Speaker 2: and he was like, you know, you can make more money.

1092
00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:29,279
Speaker 2: The way you make more money is you got to

1093
00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:36,280
Speaker 2: leave and then you got to come back, which is true,

1094
00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:38,960
Speaker 2: Which is true. Yeah, and that's exactly what I did. Yeah,

1095
00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:40,880
Speaker 2: But I mean not because he told me that, but

1096
00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:43,399
Speaker 2: I thought I was really like he was my boss

1097
00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:45,320
Speaker 2: at the time, and I thought it was really cool

1098
00:54:45,360 --> 00:54:47,760
Speaker 2: that my boss was telling me that, Like the secret

1099
00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:51,040
Speaker 2: to like really getting what I wanted from my career

1100
00:54:51,239 --> 00:54:53,480
Speaker 2: was to play this game and to and to know

1101
00:54:53,600 --> 00:54:56,520
Speaker 2: my value and and like I means that certainly didn't

1102
00:54:56,520 --> 00:54:58,440
Speaker 2: make his life any easier when I left, you know

1103
00:54:58,440 --> 00:55:00,200
Speaker 2: what I mean? But I thought it was it was

1104
00:55:00,239 --> 00:55:03,839
Speaker 2: a really really amazing thing to say, because how would

1105
00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:05,600
Speaker 2: I know that, you know what I mean? Who nobody

1106
00:55:05,640 --> 00:55:08,040
Speaker 2: told Like unless he had told me that, nobody else

1107
00:55:08,080 --> 00:55:09,879
Speaker 2: would have told me that, right, I wouldn't have learned

1108
00:55:09,920 --> 00:55:10,319
Speaker 2: on my own.

1109
00:55:10,440 --> 00:55:13,280
Speaker 1: I totally hear that. I also think leaving in general,

1110
00:55:13,520 --> 00:55:16,280
Speaker 1: any job can be super scary, just because you're leaving

1111
00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:19,200
Speaker 1: what is often a sense of security and a sense

1112
00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:22,520
Speaker 1: of stability, and things are constant to the unknown. I

1113
00:55:22,560 --> 00:55:25,680
Speaker 1: remember when I went to Rodale, I was leaving a

1114
00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:28,480
Speaker 1: job where I got to write about like twelve different

1115
00:55:28,480 --> 00:55:30,440
Speaker 1: topic areas. And I went to Rdale and I was

1116
00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:33,640
Speaker 1: writing all help and wellness content, and I was scared

1117
00:55:33,800 --> 00:55:36,680
Speaker 1: shitless because I thought I would be bored at Little

1118
00:55:36,680 --> 00:55:38,480
Speaker 1: did I know at the time that making that transition

1119
00:55:38,520 --> 00:55:40,879
Speaker 1: would literally change my entire life and now it would

1120
00:55:40,880 --> 00:55:43,839
Speaker 1: be all I talk about all the time. But it's

1121
00:55:43,960 --> 00:55:44,960
Speaker 1: I mean, change is scary.

1122
00:55:45,320 --> 00:55:46,360
Speaker 2: Change is really scary.

1123
00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:50,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, change is frightening. Okay, we're gonna wind it down here. Okay,

1124
00:55:50,719 --> 00:55:54,800
Speaker 1: you have an opportunity right now to offer the Carolyn

1125
00:55:55,120 --> 00:55:58,680
Speaker 1: sitting down with Anna in her office a piece of

1126
00:55:58,719 --> 00:56:01,520
Speaker 1: advice when she finds out that she's going to be

1127
00:56:01,840 --> 00:56:05,839
Speaker 1: editor in chief and holy crap, I'm pregnant and what

1128
00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:08,560
Speaker 1: is going to happen here? What do you tell her? Now?

1129
00:56:08,680 --> 00:56:12,239
Speaker 2: It's funny. I was thinking about this earlier, and I

1130
00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:14,200
Speaker 2: want to say, like, I would tell myself to not

1131
00:56:14,239 --> 00:56:15,919
Speaker 2: work every single day, but I don't know that that's true,

1132
00:56:15,920 --> 00:56:17,680
Speaker 2: because I don't know that I would have actually gotten

1133
00:56:17,760 --> 00:56:20,640
Speaker 2: it all done. To be honest with you, I think

1134
00:56:20,680 --> 00:56:23,960
Speaker 2: the best piece of advice I could have given myself

1135
00:56:23,960 --> 00:56:27,120
Speaker 2: back then is to pay more attention to how I

1136
00:56:27,160 --> 00:56:33,120
Speaker 2: was feeling physically and not try and push myself so

1137
00:56:33,280 --> 00:56:38,480
Speaker 2: hard physically, and tend to my needs, like be more

1138
00:56:38,520 --> 00:56:40,719
Speaker 2: proactive about it. Like an example I can give you

1139
00:56:40,880 --> 00:56:43,239
Speaker 2: is that it took me a really long time to

1140
00:56:43,280 --> 00:56:45,200
Speaker 2: realize that the way to feel better when I was

1141
00:56:45,280 --> 00:56:47,759
Speaker 2: nauseated was to eat something. Because when you're nauseated, when

1142
00:56:47,760 --> 00:56:49,399
Speaker 2: you have a stomach bug, eating something does not help.

1143
00:56:49,719 --> 00:56:53,840
Speaker 2: But when I was nauseated while pregnant, having some popcorn

1144
00:56:53,920 --> 00:56:56,520
Speaker 2: or some crackers or something made me feel better. I

1145
00:56:56,640 --> 00:56:59,160
Speaker 2: basically almost passed out on the subway one morning, and

1146
00:56:59,200 --> 00:57:01,400
Speaker 2: I was really lucky that at one of my colleagues

1147
00:57:01,440 --> 00:57:02,920
Speaker 2: was there to like catch me and drag me off

1148
00:57:02,960 --> 00:57:04,600
Speaker 2: the train, and she's like, what is wrong with you?

1149
00:57:04,680 --> 00:57:06,800
Speaker 2: What happened? And I'm like, don't tell anybody's been pregnant.

1150
00:57:07,120 --> 00:57:10,120
Speaker 2: And she's like, don't you have popcorn in your purse?

1151
00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:12,200
Speaker 2: And she like gave me popcorn from her verse and

1152
00:57:12,719 --> 00:57:14,960
Speaker 2: it made me feel better, like immediately, And so I

1153
00:57:14,960 --> 00:57:17,360
Speaker 2: started carrying popcorn with me literally everywhere I went, and

1154
00:57:17,400 --> 00:57:19,600
Speaker 2: it was exactly what I needed. But it was one

1155
00:57:19,640 --> 00:57:21,520
Speaker 2: of those things where if I had been paying more

1156
00:57:21,520 --> 00:57:25,320
Speaker 2: attention to how I felt and recognizing my internal cues better,

1157
00:57:25,400 --> 00:57:26,680
Speaker 2: that wouldn't have been an issue.

1158
00:57:26,760 --> 00:57:28,240
Speaker 1: I think that kind of also goes back to the

1159
00:57:28,280 --> 00:57:30,840
Speaker 1: constant piece of advice, which is just like, be more

1160
00:57:30,880 --> 00:57:34,640
Speaker 1: honest with yourself and be like upfront about how you

1161
00:57:34,680 --> 00:57:37,040
Speaker 1: feel and do a pulse check. I think so often

1162
00:57:37,080 --> 00:57:39,600
Speaker 1: we're so busy running around from point A to point B.

1163
00:57:39,920 --> 00:57:42,720
Speaker 1: We're constantly holding our phones, we're looking at things and

1164
00:57:42,760 --> 00:57:44,640
Speaker 1: we don't take that time to just take a step

1165
00:57:44,680 --> 00:57:47,880
Speaker 1: back and say, Emily, how do you feel right now?

1166
00:57:48,240 --> 00:57:48,919
Speaker 1: What's going on?

1167
00:57:49,240 --> 00:57:52,840
Speaker 2: Totally we don't do that. Yeah, we definitely don't. I

1168
00:57:52,880 --> 00:57:55,000
Speaker 2: definitely don't. Still I still could use that advice.

1169
00:57:55,560 --> 00:57:58,400
Speaker 1: Well, you're offering it right now, Carolyn, thanks so much

1170
00:57:58,440 --> 00:58:00,880
Speaker 1: for sitting down with me today. I appreciate you.

1171
00:58:01,000 --> 00:58:02,760
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate

1172
00:58:02,840 --> 00:58:05,920
Speaker 2: your doing such an amazing job with Hurdle. I'm not

1173
00:58:05,960 --> 00:58:09,600
Speaker 2: at all surprised, but I'm just really really happy for

1174
00:58:09,680 --> 00:58:12,160
Speaker 2: you and excited for you. You make me, You.

1175
00:58:12,040 --> 00:58:16,560
Speaker 1: Make me smile at the smile. Please take a moment

1176
00:58:16,840 --> 00:58:18,560
Speaker 1: to leave a quick review by clicking the link with

1177
00:58:18,600 --> 00:58:21,920
Speaker 1: the description to this episode. We all face multiple hurdles

1178
00:58:21,960 --> 00:58:23,880
Speaker 1: in life. I want to hear about yours. Reach out

1179
00:58:23,880 --> 00:58:26,680
Speaker 1: to me at Emily at Hurdle dot us. Connect with

1180
00:58:26,720 --> 00:58:30,760
Speaker 1: the podcast on Instagram and Twitter at Hurdle Podcast. Carolyn.

1181
00:58:30,840 --> 00:58:33,160
Speaker 1: Where do they find you? Where do they find self?

1182
00:58:33,400 --> 00:58:34,320
Speaker 1: Give us the lowdown.

1183
00:58:34,440 --> 00:58:37,520
Speaker 2: You should follow me on Instagram and Twitter at Carolyn Kilstra,

1184
00:58:38,200 --> 00:58:43,160
Speaker 2: just my name and follows self at self Magazine, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook,

1185
00:58:43,360 --> 00:58:46,680
Speaker 2: follow us on Snapchat. We're amazing on Snapchat, I do excellent.

1186
00:58:47,680 --> 00:58:50,880
Speaker 1: Another hurdle conquered. Catch you guys next time

1187
00:59:00,040 --> 00:59:00,080
Speaker 2: You