1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:12,680 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio Happy Friday. 3 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:13,440 Speaker 2: I'm Tracy V. 4 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:17,840 Speaker 1: Wilson and I'm Holly Frye. We talked about Rebecca Crumpler 5 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:23,439 Speaker 1: this week. Sure did a topic that turned out to be. 6 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:26,440 Speaker 2: Challenging. It a different way than I. 7 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 1: Expected because of all the baby discussion. Well, there is 8 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:32,280 Speaker 1: a lot of baby discussion. Thank you for bearing with 9 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 1: the baby discussion, Holly. 10 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:35,879 Speaker 2: I know it's not your favorite. 11 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:39,960 Speaker 1: It's not the talking. I mean again, we know I 12 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 1: don't need to believe it, and I don't want anybody 13 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:44,239 Speaker 1: who has and loves babies to feel weird. I just 14 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:48,480 Speaker 1: like the discussion of baby care really squiggs me out. 15 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:50,839 Speaker 2: Not for you, No, No. 16 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 1: What turned out to be challenging was the amount of 17 00:00:56,160 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 1: information was fine, uh, but I kept finding like all 18 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:05,560 Speaker 1: the sources would say the same thing, and I would 19 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:09,160 Speaker 1: just sort of go, okay, but like, where is this 20 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:10,319 Speaker 1: coming from? 21 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 2: Though? 22 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:15,319 Speaker 1: Like I kept seeing the same quote about the the 23 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 1: sort of reluctance to allow her to graduate from medical school, 24 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 1: which you can read as like I don't think she 25 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 1: had a ton of formal education and she definitely had 26 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 1: to take time off to care for her husband as 27 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 1: he was dying, and so like, I can imagine that 28 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:33,240 Speaker 1: both of those things would have been caused for concern. 29 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:37,520 Speaker 1: I can also imagine racism being prominently involved in the 30 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:42,680 Speaker 1: decision making and how she was judged. But I just 31 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 1: kept going, okay, like this is clearly quoting from something. 32 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 2: What are we quoting from? 33 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:54,440 Speaker 1: Yeah? 34 00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 2: This led me down. 35 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:59,800 Speaker 1: I find I found like a place that had the actual, 36 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 1: like actual footnote of what, you know, what collection it 37 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 1: was in. And then that was a whole other little 38 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:11,239 Speaker 1: rabbit hole because I did not write down who, like 39 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 1: which which collection this was said to be a part of. 40 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:19,680 Speaker 1: But the university it was being held at is not 41 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 1: there anymore. Oh, it was absorbed by Drexel University. I 42 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 1: don't know if absorbed is the right. I did not 43 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:30,399 Speaker 1: look into like the details of like how these universities 44 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:34,760 Speaker 1: came under the same umbrella. But this is a thing 45 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 1: that sort of led me to wish that I had 46 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:42,800 Speaker 1: a little time machine, because had things aligned differently while 47 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:45,919 Speaker 1: I was on that trip to Philadelphia to see the 48 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 1: Marie Lawrence exhibit, I could have like extended my stay 49 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 1: by a day and see if I could go and 50 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:59,800 Speaker 1: like get access to the actual file box of actual information, 51 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 1: which is a collection of information that was compiled by 52 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 1: somebody named Margaret Jaredo about I think specifically early black 53 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 1: women doctors, like early black women in the medical profession. 54 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 1: And I am very curious about what all else is 55 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:28,680 Speaker 1: in that collection, and you know, it could be a 56 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:33,200 Speaker 1: magic box of information and discovery. Uh, it does seem 57 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 1: to be something that was compiled with a lot of 58 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 1: care and attention and is now in the in the collection. Uh, 59 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:44,160 Speaker 1: you know, it's there in the finding aid at Drexel University, 60 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 1: but not at a time that I could have gotten 61 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 1: to such a thing. And I was very late in 62 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 1: the research process when I finally like actually penned down 63 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 1: where we're quoting from on stuff something that I wanted 64 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:58,120 Speaker 1: to note, but that I didn't put in the actual 65 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 1: episode because it's not directly related to her. So she 66 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 1: was the first black woman known to have earned an 67 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 1: MD in the United States. That is an achievement on 68 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 1: its own, earning a medical degree in general. But this 69 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 1: was also sort of at a very early time in 70 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 1: the process of things like nursing and midwiffery and medicine 71 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:29,920 Speaker 1: becoming a lot more formalized and a lot more standardized, 72 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:35,920 Speaker 1: and really most of the time overseen by like a 73 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 1: white medical establishment. So anyone who was not white and 74 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:45,160 Speaker 1: was wanting to be a nurse or a midwife or 75 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 1: a doctor was like increasingly funneled into a pretty racist 76 00:04:54,120 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 1: formalized system, which in a lot of care just wound 77 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 1: up with people not having access to work that they 78 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 1: had already been doing and had already been trained in. Right, 79 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:11,360 Speaker 1: So like people who had who had been working as 80 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 1: nurses for many years, who had you know, learned to 81 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:19,920 Speaker 1: be nurses before there were formal nursing programs, like no 82 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 1: longer being able to practice nurses after this became more 83 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 1: formalized and standardized. And I feel like a lot of 84 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:29,839 Speaker 1: this is really complicated because, on the one hand, there 85 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:33,120 Speaker 1: are a lot of things that have gone on in 86 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:36,240 Speaker 1: the world of medicine, some of which we've talked about 87 00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:39,040 Speaker 1: on the show before, that were like not evidence based, 88 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:42,480 Speaker 1: were not helping people in some cases, were harming people, 89 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:48,800 Speaker 1: and evolving into a more formalized profession did not totally 90 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:51,040 Speaker 1: get rid of that by any stretch of the imagination 91 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 1: at all, but did sort of put some guardrails around that. 92 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:01,039 Speaker 1: But then just also let to like a lot of 93 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 1: loss of community knowledge. We did a whole episode that 94 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:12,039 Speaker 1: you researched about the Flexner Report that was a report 95 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:16,360 Speaker 1: into the status of medical education that in the aftermath 96 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 1: that led to a lot of the schools that were 97 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:21,839 Speaker 1: training black doctors being shut down, and they're just like, 98 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 1: weren't any anymore. So it's like simultaneously she broke a 99 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 1: lot of ground and achieved a lot of firsts and 100 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 1: then clearly worked in a very needed role in her community. 101 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:40,920 Speaker 1: As the world was changing in this way that kind 102 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:48,839 Speaker 1: of forced everyone who wasn't white into the margins as 103 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 1: these institutions became more formalized and standardized that associated with 104 00:06:55,680 --> 00:07:01,960 Speaker 1: like universities and colleges rather than learning doing as someone's apprentice, 105 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 1: if that makes sense. So yeah, I feel like there 106 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 1: are complicated things around all of that. Well, and the 107 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 1: hard part, right is that when we're looking at I mean, 108 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 1: it is hard enough when scenarios like that play out 109 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 1: in the modern world to tease apart all of the 110 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 1: moving parts that are going on, and like when there 111 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 1: are scenarios where racism or bias is driving the bus 112 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 1: in terms of how a decision has gotten made versus 113 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 1: those occasions when there actually is like a problem of 114 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 1: the knowledge that isn't maybe accurate or correct. That's hard 115 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 1: enough if it plays out today. So when we're looking 116 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 1: back at stuff like this, it's like you really have 117 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 1: to have no assumptions of accuracy of almost anything you 118 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 1: look at, because everybody who wrote a piece of paper 119 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:02,480 Speaker 1: about it had unconscious bias, right, because we all do. Yeah, 120 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 1: but we weren't even aware of the concept of unconscious mind. 121 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, Like it gets very very tricky. 122 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:14,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so much baby talk. Also, apparently I should 123 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:18,679 Speaker 1: be you know, as a woman of a certain age, 124 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 1: I should be avoiding excitement. Yeah, I got to the 125 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:26,640 Speaker 1: So I love reading her book. There are things in 126 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 1: it where I'm like, yeah, absolutely, we need better ventilation 127 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 1: and buildings. That's that's certainly true. But like, for example, 128 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 1: the parts where she was talking about basically people working 129 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 1: themselves to death to make ends meet did kind of 130 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 1: come off as sort of saying you should not do that, 131 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 1: when it's like, okay, but with what resources? Right? How? 132 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:56,679 Speaker 1: How how does the family eat them? Yeah, and the 133 00:08:56,840 --> 00:09:00,960 Speaker 1: advice about menopause, I was like, you're not I'm not 134 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:05,160 Speaker 1: giving up spices right, not a thing I would ever 135 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:11,280 Speaker 1: be willing to do as I approach the age of fifty. 136 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:14,440 Speaker 2: So yeah, her. 137 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 1: Her book is so clearly influenced by, you know, her 138 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:24,959 Speaker 1: own experience of many years of working with babies and 139 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:30,400 Speaker 1: mothers especially, And then also occasionally I would read something 140 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 1: a goo, oh no, that's we know today, that's not 141 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:38,839 Speaker 1: how that works. Yeah, yeah, I mean I also write 142 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:42,559 Speaker 1: like it's there's a little bit of relief, is not it, 143 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:46,200 Speaker 1: But there's a little bit of like, oh. We often 144 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 1: talk about how things you think are very much part 145 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 1: of the modern world have actually been playing out forever 146 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:52,600 Speaker 1: and ever and ever, and it's like, this is like, 147 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:57,440 Speaker 1: you know, more than one hundred and twenty thirty years ago, 148 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 1: and yet there was already this idea that people work 149 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:05,400 Speaker 1: too much, which we are still constantly discussing culturally, like 150 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 1: about how unhealthy it is to work too much. And 151 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 1: I'm like, well, on the one hand, it stinks that 152 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:13,000 Speaker 1: we still haven't figured this biz out, and on the 153 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:17,480 Speaker 1: other hand, it's oddly reassuring that this has always been 154 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:20,040 Speaker 1: a problem and we've for the most part managed to 155 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 1: endure at least one To look at the whole of 156 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:27,080 Speaker 1: humanity but also I think we should all not work 157 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:30,880 Speaker 1: as much. But again, oh, yes, we also all need 158 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 1: to eat and have the necessities that enable us to live. 159 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 2: Yeah. 160 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 1: I had some similar thoughts about her feelings about children 161 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 1: who were, in her mind, too young to be going 162 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:47,000 Speaker 1: to school because of the health effects of that, and 163 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:48,640 Speaker 1: I was like, man, this is a debate that we're 164 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 1: still having about. Like I know so many parents of 165 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 1: little kids who are like, yes, school starts, and it's 166 00:10:56,480 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 1: just like continual illness. Yeah, but like the benefit of 167 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 1: being in school, Like there's a whole different benefit involving 168 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:13,679 Speaker 1: like learning and socialization with your peers and all of 169 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. And like, I don't know all 170 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:19,200 Speaker 1: of those decisions, I am not remotely qualified to weigh 171 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:22,080 Speaker 1: in on. But I was like, yeah, I still see 172 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:27,840 Speaker 1: this these conversations happening today about like kids in school 173 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:30,959 Speaker 1: and daycare and getting sick. But like, then there's a 174 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:35,760 Speaker 1: different benefit to being in school besides the illness part. Yeah. 175 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:39,720 Speaker 1: And to further complicated, there is no one right answer 176 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:42,840 Speaker 1: for all kids either, right, right, Some kids will do 177 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:46,199 Speaker 1: better going earlier, some kids will do better going later. 178 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 1: And so when everybody's trying to make a blanket regulation set. 179 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:56,680 Speaker 1: It's like it doesn't really work the complexities of human 180 00:11:56,720 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 1: life as mirrored throughout history. So yeah, I am glad 181 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 1: that I finally got to do the episode on her. 182 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:11,559 Speaker 1: Do you still kind of wish the order had been 183 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:15,120 Speaker 1: magically slightly different? And I had known that there was 184 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:19,520 Speaker 1: a need to maybe go to a university library in 185 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:23,199 Speaker 1: Philadelphia while I was there. I mean we could always 186 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 1: have a follow up. 187 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, but then I would have to go back to Philadelphia. 188 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:31,360 Speaker 1: Okay, it is. It was a fun trip. I've said 189 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 1: that last time. I definitely enjoyed it. This week we 190 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:49,200 Speaker 1: talked about Measles. We've talked before about how I loved 191 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:54,319 Speaker 1: the podcast Saw Bones. Yeah, they did an episode on measles. 192 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 1: I am pretty sure in twenty fifteen, as the Disneyland 193 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 1: outbreak was happening. Oh yeah, but it had a very 194 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 1: similar like there's a bunch of measles outbreaks happening kind 195 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:16,480 Speaker 1: of introductory material. Uh, I feel a little I don't 196 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 1: feel exactly the same about Measles in terms of conversations 197 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 1: about it recently. Is it did about scarlet fever? Because 198 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:26,440 Speaker 1: with scarlet fever, a lot of people when scarlet fever 199 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:32,439 Speaker 1: comes up, it feels like an old timey Victorian era 200 00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 1: not around any more disease, which that's not the case. 201 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:38,720 Speaker 1: We talked about that in that whole episode. Even though 202 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 1: I don't think I personally know anyone who has had 203 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 1: the measles, measles doesn't strike me in quite that way, 204 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:52,000 Speaker 1: just because there have been so many outbreaks, Like the 205 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:55,679 Speaker 1: number of outbreaks have increased recently, But when I was born, 206 00:13:56,600 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 1: people were recommended to get one dose of vaccine, and 207 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:05,120 Speaker 1: then the recommendation was increased to a second dose that 208 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 1: some time later. I didn't look up the exact but 209 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:10,120 Speaker 1: like there was a recommendation for people to have a 210 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 1: second dose, in part because like it just increases the 211 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 1: efficacy a little bit more, hoping to cut down on 212 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:18,440 Speaker 1: the number of outbreaks. So this recommendation for the second 213 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 1: dose happened in nineteen eighty nine. I got that second 214 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 1: dose when I was in my early teen years because 215 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 1: we were going to go visit my grandmother and there 216 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 1: was an active outbreak happening in the town where she lived. 217 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 1: So my mom took me to the pediatrician to get 218 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 1: dose number two of MMR vaccine, and that led to 219 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:51,960 Speaker 1: an awkward conversation because generally, again I'm not a doctor, 220 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 1: not medical advice. It is not advised though, for people 221 00:14:55,600 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 1: to get the MMR vaccine during pregnancy of the potential 222 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:05,280 Speaker 1: for congenital rebella syndrome. So my mom takes me to 223 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 1: the pediatrician and I'm what fourteen or fifteen maybe, and 224 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:16,680 Speaker 1: the nurse asks me if I am on my period, 225 00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 1: and I say no, And the nurse says, then I 226 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 1: can't give you the vaccine. 227 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 2: In case you're pregnant, And I was. 228 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 1: Like, no, unpossible, but like, what a weird jump. Well, 229 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:42,400 Speaker 1: and they I understand the motivation, and I understand that 230 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:47,040 Speaker 1: people's experiences happen at different times in their life, right, 231 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 1: But for me, at the age of fifteen, it was 232 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 1: not possible for me to have been pregnant. Well, I 233 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 1: mean my jump is like, why did she go right 234 00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 1: there instead of are you sexually active? Yeah? But to 235 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 1: me that would have been in the more suitable question. 236 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 1: I don't know if there was like a medical like 237 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 1: if that was the sort of guidelines for how to 238 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 1: talk to people about it, but like, I think my 239 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 1: mom might have even warned me that this conversation might 240 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 1: happen but anyway, they did, though, give me my second 241 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:22,640 Speaker 1: measles other sense, I guess it was MMR at that point, 242 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:29,720 Speaker 1: after some conversation with my mom, I don't remember mine, 243 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:32,360 Speaker 1: so I'm presuming I got it when I was little. 244 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, well it's the first dose is. 245 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 1: Small children, not tiny tiny babies, because people have antibodies 246 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 1: from in utero, and I feel like it's some amount 247 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:50,000 Speaker 1: of time later that the second dose is recommended. Again, 248 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 1: I did not look all this up. I'm not a doctor. 249 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 1: It's more about my awkward experience at the doctor's office, 250 00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 1: as you know, an awkward fourteen or fifteen year old. 251 00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:03,200 Speaker 1: Another thing, whenever I'm working on this podcast and I'm 252 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:10,159 Speaker 1: getting to read old, old documents that are scans of 253 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:13,399 Speaker 1: things that are very old, and they have the long 254 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:18,800 Speaker 1: s's in them that look like f's. That led to 255 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:22,399 Speaker 1: some hilarity with this episode because there was some stuff 256 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 1: that I was wanting to look at that was very 257 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:29,359 Speaker 1: long that I knew there was a section of that 258 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:33,919 Speaker 1: was about measles specifically, but like, there wasn't a table 259 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:37,679 Speaker 1: of contents that could or an index, Like there wasn't 260 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:39,840 Speaker 1: a way that might guide me to that page. So 261 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 1: I was having to use the text search function, and 262 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:49,840 Speaker 1: you know, with the long s's that looked like f's, 263 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:54,240 Speaker 1: any kind of ocr that might have gone through there 264 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 1: to make it a machine readable document probably a little 265 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:03,280 Speaker 1: off with the s's that look like f's. And so 266 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:05,679 Speaker 1: what I discovered was that anytime I was trying to 267 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:08,600 Speaker 1: look at these old documents, I needed to look for 268 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 1: me folsm A f l e s in case it 269 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:15,120 Speaker 1: saw that, uh that s as an F. But I 270 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:19,879 Speaker 1: also needed to look for mealies because some of them 271 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:23,440 Speaker 1: had turned U m e A s l e S 272 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:28,240 Speaker 1: into m e A l i e s. Oh yeah, 273 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:31,760 Speaker 1: And that just became my I would look for both, 274 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 1: even though even if like even if me even if 275 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:38,480 Speaker 1: mefals brought up results right away, I'd be like, let 276 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:41,240 Speaker 1: me just check see if meales is in this one too. 277 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:51,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, that was tricky. 278 00:18:53,680 --> 00:19:01,399 Speaker 1: I forgot my level of iron about the Lancet paper 279 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:03,879 Speaker 1: until we were talking about it, and it was like 280 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:06,880 Speaker 1: the way a sense memory will come back and you're 281 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 1: just ready to spit nails all over again. I was 282 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 1: just like, yeah, yeah, yeah, it wasn't just inaccurate, like 283 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:17,360 Speaker 1: the way that it was described for a long time 284 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:20,040 Speaker 1: was inaccurate and it was like fraudulent. Well, and I 285 00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:25,720 Speaker 1: still see people today who don't either don't know that 286 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 1: it was retracted or don't accept that as valid, still 287 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:38,160 Speaker 1: trying to make that case that vaccines cause autism, and 288 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:43,159 Speaker 1: I become so angry, so angry. I have layers of anger. 289 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 1: A lot of people in my life are like, Hey, 290 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:49,600 Speaker 1: what you're telling me when you say this about vaccines 291 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:52,640 Speaker 1: and autism is that you would rather have your child die. 292 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:58,439 Speaker 1: And that is an unacceptable thing to say in a 293 00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:04,240 Speaker 1: number of ways. So yeah, yeah, I was not totally 294 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:08,760 Speaker 1: like I didn't have the exact timeline in my head 295 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 1: of like when the paper came out, when that paper 296 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 1: got like so much traction, a lot of it being 297 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:19,600 Speaker 1: like sort of celebrity endorsements of this paper. 298 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 2: Almost I didn't. 299 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:24,520 Speaker 1: Realize that that was like two years before the United 300 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:27,320 Speaker 1: States was declared measles free. And I had this moment 301 00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:31,920 Speaker 1: where I like silently gave thanks that that still happened 302 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:36,080 Speaker 1: in the face of like such a big setback to 303 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:41,480 Speaker 1: vaccine campaigns. Yeah, because it did, like it led to 304 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:44,640 Speaker 1: people refusing a. 305 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:45,680 Speaker 2: Lot of vaccines. 306 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of vaccines, like based on this paper 307 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:56,159 Speaker 1: that was fraudulent, as we keep saying. So yeah, yeah, 308 00:20:56,240 --> 00:21:01,639 Speaker 1: I am glad to be vaccinated for measles, so that 309 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 1: when I come back from a place where there's a 310 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:09,240 Speaker 1: measles outbreak happening, I'm not like, uh oh, I did 311 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:12,680 Speaker 1: not pass through either of the airports that had the warnings, 312 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:15,320 Speaker 1: and I did not go to the daycare in Philadelphia 313 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 1: where a lot of the cases were. You didn't go 314 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:23,720 Speaker 1: to Disneyland in the twenty teens Disneyland outbreak. I mean, look, 315 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:28,000 Speaker 1: I'm not a parent, so obviously I'm not an expert. 316 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:31,760 Speaker 1: But I often see in disney parks or even places 317 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:35,679 Speaker 1: like movie theaters people who come in with a baby 318 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:41,080 Speaker 1: that is obviously in the category of newborn. Oh yeah, 319 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:44,639 Speaker 1: and I'm always like, should you be out among the 320 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:50,040 Speaker 1: unwashed masses? Like I don't the immunity of that infant 321 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:55,199 Speaker 1: is not solidified yet. Yeah, is this really the smartest 322 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:58,040 Speaker 1: thing to do? But again, I'm not a parent, and 323 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:01,600 Speaker 1: that is also informed by my own bias of I'm 324 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 1: afraid of babies. 325 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:06,360 Speaker 2: So yeah, there's so. 326 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:12,159 Speaker 1: I don't remember the age that the first dose of 327 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:13,360 Speaker 1: MMR vaccine, but. 328 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:14,399 Speaker 2: It might be like a year. 329 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:17,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, No, I have I recently on a trip to 330 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:21,439 Speaker 1: Disney World, saw a very tiny baby that was not 331 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:23,919 Speaker 1: a year by any means, Like I would be shocked 332 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 1: if it was more than a couple months. And I 333 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:30,160 Speaker 1: was just like, did you book this trip not knowing 334 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 1: that you were expecting and then you decided to go anyway? 335 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:34,320 Speaker 1: I don't, I don't know what happened. I don't. 336 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:34,960 Speaker 2: I'm scared. 337 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:39,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's not my business. I try not to 338 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:41,520 Speaker 1: be judging, but I'm also like, I don't know if 339 00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:46,920 Speaker 1: this is safe, and I get, you know, like contact anxiety. 340 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:48,560 Speaker 2: Right. 341 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:51,840 Speaker 1: We had one trip to Disney in Orlando when I 342 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:53,960 Speaker 1: was a child, which was a road trip taken by 343 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:59,159 Speaker 1: my whole extended family on my dad's side and my 344 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:02,320 Speaker 1: mom's for when we were old enough to do that 345 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:08,480 Speaker 1: was we can all walk, that's smart. And there was 346 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:11,520 Speaker 1: still debate about like were we going to be old 347 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:15,560 Speaker 1: enough to remember the trip because like my mom was like, 348 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:17,359 Speaker 1: this is probably the only time we're going to do this. 349 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:21,760 Speaker 1: I don't want my children to go and be so 350 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:24,879 Speaker 1: young that they don't remember this one once in a 351 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:30,639 Speaker 1: lifetime for our family thing. So I was so I 352 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:34,399 Speaker 1: guess I was five and my brother was three and 353 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,840 Speaker 1: a half. We did not go in my family. No, 354 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:42,159 Speaker 1: I was in No. No, that was a vacation was 355 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:46,119 Speaker 1: for going to visit other relatives and revisit all of 356 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:49,679 Speaker 1: your grudges. That was who vacation was for in my 357 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:52,720 Speaker 1: family growing up, which is probably why I go to 358 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:56,080 Speaker 1: Dissy World all the time now because yeah, I didn't 359 00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:58,840 Speaker 1: get this in my formative years that I wanted it. 360 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:07,280 Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah. So you know, if you're preparing for 361 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:10,960 Speaker 1: a vacation with your family, I hope those preparations are 362 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 1: going great. I know a lot of folks who were 363 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:17,800 Speaker 1: about to go on the same trip in a couple 364 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:22,360 Speaker 1: of weeks and they are all having the pre vacation 365 00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:25,480 Speaker 1: anxiety of getting everything done before you can go. So 366 00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:29,640 Speaker 1: if that's on your life plan coming up, I hope 367 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:32,320 Speaker 1: it's going well. If you're not getting to take a vacation, 368 00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 1: I hope you at least get to have a nap. 369 00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 1: We will be back with a Saturday Classic tomorrow. We 370 00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:48,080 Speaker 1: will have a brand new episode on Monday. Stuff You 371 00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:51,240 Speaker 1: Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For 372 00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:55,760 Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts 373 00:24:55,880 --> 00:25:00,359 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.