1 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:08,640 Speaker 1: Hey, you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My 2 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:12,080 Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb. We were off for the Juneteenth holiday, 3 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 1: so we are just a tiny bit behind in our schedule, 4 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:18,319 Speaker 1: so we are going to run a vault episode for 5 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:21,240 Speaker 1: you here. This is an interview episode I did last 6 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:26,360 Speaker 1: year with author Adam Weymouth talking about his book Lone Wolf, 7 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: Walking the Line between Civilization and Wildness. It's all about 8 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:34,840 Speaker 1: the European Wolf, it's recent comeback and the similarities between 9 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:38,199 Speaker 1: the human and the lupine world This one originally published 10 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:41,559 Speaker 1: six twelve, twenty twenty five. Let's jump right in. 11 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of iHeartRadio. 12 00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 1: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My 13 00:00:57,520 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb, and on today's episode, I'm going 14 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:03,400 Speaker 1: to be chatting with Adam Weyman, author of Lone Wolf 15 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 1: Walking the Line between Civilization and Wildness. It's all about 16 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:10,319 Speaker 1: the European Wolf, it's recent comeback, in the similarities between 17 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 1: the human and lupine worlds. Without further ado, let's jump 18 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:19,360 Speaker 1: right in. Thank you, Hi Adam, Welcome to the show. 19 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:21,280 Speaker 3: Hi Rap, thanks for having me on. 20 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 1: The new book is Lone Wolf Walking the Line between 21 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:28,640 Speaker 1: Civilization and Wilderness released as of June third and all 22 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:31,959 Speaker 1: major formats. As you describe in the book, Your Journey 23 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:37,120 Speaker 1: began in covering the possible reintroduction of wolves into Scotland. 24 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:39,840 Speaker 1: You'd written about this prior, so I thought you might 25 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:42,480 Speaker 1: walk us through this first. What happened to the wolves 26 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:45,319 Speaker 1: of the British Isles and where do things stand now 27 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:47,040 Speaker 1: with their potential reintroduction? 28 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 3: And what happened to the wolves of the British Isles 29 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 3: is pretty much the same that happened to the wolf 30 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 3: across its entire range. The wolf used to be once 31 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 3: upon a time the most widespread terrestrial land mammal on 32 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 3: the planet, all across the Northern Hemisphere, from the tundra 33 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 3: right down to the tropics and pretty much everywhere, including 34 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 3: in the British Isles. They were pushed almost to extinction, 35 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 3: or in the British Iles, completely eradicated. So there's a 36 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:16,239 Speaker 3: bunch of last wolf stories. It seems that they hung 37 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:19,519 Speaker 3: on in Scotland later than anywhere else. The last definitive 38 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:24,800 Speaker 3: account for wolf in Scotland is sixteen twenty one, and 39 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:28,200 Speaker 3: that's a note for a bounty that was paid on 40 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:29,800 Speaker 3: a wolf. But it was an exception, you high su 41 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:32,799 Speaker 3: which suggests by them that demand was already kind of 42 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 3: outstripping supply. And then it kind of verges into myth. 43 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 3: There's a lot of people that would like to claim 44 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:41,239 Speaker 3: they killed the last wolf, whereas actually, of course the 45 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 3: last wolf probably lived out it's days, far from any one, 46 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 3: profoundly isolated and alone. 47 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 1: Now you actually looked for the alleged remains of the 48 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 1: last wolf in Scotland, right. 49 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. So it's like I said, it's very 50 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:57,600 Speaker 3: hard to come by. There's one story that I followed. 51 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:00,560 Speaker 3: So I began my journey in Scotland at in a 52 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 3: state up near in Verness where this gentleman called Paul 53 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 3: Lister has been talking about trying to reintroduce now wolves 54 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:10,359 Speaker 3: now for about twenty years or so. And I walked 55 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:12,120 Speaker 3: across Scotland and finished it in the south of the 56 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 3: Kangom Mountain range. And that's one of the places where 57 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 3: the last Wolf is meant to have been killed. And then, 58 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 3: as you say later, I said out trying to find 59 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:23,520 Speaker 3: it because it is then meant to have been stuffed, 60 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:28,240 Speaker 3: and had various journey through different collections and museums, but 61 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 3: the actual providence of it is now pretty hard to locate, 62 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:33,840 Speaker 3: and really, through the course of the research it made 63 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:35,680 Speaker 3: me realize that this probably wasn't the last wolf at all. 64 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 3: This wolf that was being taken around these museums in 65 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 3: Scotland was being labeled as the last wolf in order 66 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:43,120 Speaker 3: to sell tickets, but really it was probably nothing of 67 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 3: the sort. 68 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:47,720 Speaker 1: And what about the reintroduction of the wolf into Scotland 69 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:52,720 Speaker 1: or various other areas where the wolf is no longer present. 70 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:56,440 Speaker 1: Where do we currently stand with that in terms of 71 00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 1: public sentiment and even governmental opinion. 72 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 3: Well, one of the reasons that the wolf is so 73 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 3: good to write about is because people are incredibly passionate 74 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 3: about it from both sides. People love wolves or they 75 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 3: hate wolves, and you find very little in between. And 76 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:14,160 Speaker 3: that's essentially where we are. It's been noted in the 77 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:16,919 Speaker 3: British Isles as the most popular animal for reintroduction. But 78 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 3: then you go and speak to people that would be 79 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 3: actually living alongside it. Once again, we have sheep farmers 80 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:27,600 Speaker 3: in Scotland, hunters, gameskeepers, people like this, even people that 81 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 3: live in villages in the countryside, and there's this reputation 82 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:34,360 Speaker 3: that the wolf has for better or worse, and there 83 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 3: are people that are very passionately against it as well. 84 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:39,880 Speaker 3: It's interesting because in some ways it's quite an arbitrary 85 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:42,800 Speaker 3: decision here wolves as we're going to talk about wolves 86 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:45,040 Speaker 3: are making this remarkable come back in Europe, and if 87 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 3: Britain was still connected by a land bridge to the 88 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:50,919 Speaker 3: continent as it used to be a couple of hundred 89 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:53,160 Speaker 3: thousand years ago, then there would be back. There would 90 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:55,600 Speaker 3: be wolves back on the British Isles now, and we 91 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 3: wouldn't be having a debate about whether or not to 92 00:04:57,560 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 3: introduce them. We'd just be talking about how we deal 93 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:02,480 Speaker 3: with them. But because we're an island, we get to 94 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 3: make these particular decisions about about what we let in, 95 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 3: and realistically it's not going to happen here for a 96 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:14,040 Speaker 3: long time. It's taken about fifteen years of great debate 97 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:17,800 Speaker 3: to allow the beaver to come back, and that's that's 98 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:21,040 Speaker 3: broadly accepted now. But there's a lot of other species 99 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:24,719 Speaker 3: we'd see back before. Wolf is really really the pinnacle 100 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:27,240 Speaker 3: of Once wolves are back, you know, we're not really 101 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:29,040 Speaker 3: talking about the worlding anymore. It's kind of. 102 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:33,719 Speaker 1: Happened now now moving to Condon or Europe. Here the 103 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 1: book is primarily concerned with a particular wolf, Schloats. Can 104 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 1: you tell us about Schloats and why his particular story 105 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 1: captured you so and serves as the is the driving 106 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:49,040 Speaker 1: force of your narrative? 107 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 3: He sure, Schloutz, it is actually one of the interesting thing. 108 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:54,560 Speaker 3: I mean, it's a particular Slovenian word. And even in 109 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 3: the other countries that Schlous ended up in, no one 110 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 3: can really say his name. Probably, But I first read 111 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 3: a little piece about Schlutz when I was doing my 112 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 3: research on wolves in Scotland, and it was this very 113 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:11,360 Speaker 3: small article about this wolf that had been born in 114 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:15,039 Speaker 3: the south of Slovenia in twenty ten and had a 115 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 3: GPS track and collar put on him by a biologist 116 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 3: who was researching into wolf behavior. But of course that 117 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:23,080 Speaker 3: biologist could have no idea what this animal was going 118 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:24,800 Speaker 3: to go on to do. He was really just interested 119 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:28,160 Speaker 3: in the sort of dynamics of the how a wolf 120 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 3: maintained the territory of the pack. But the following year, 121 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:35,360 Speaker 3: at the end of twenty eleven, when Schlutz is about 122 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 3: eighteen months old, he left his pack behind and set 123 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:42,279 Speaker 3: off on this epic one thousand mile journey through the Apps, 124 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:45,920 Speaker 3: he crossed Slovenia, he crossed the whole of Austria, and 125 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:49,480 Speaker 3: four months later in the spring, came into Italy and 126 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 3: it was there that he bumped into a female wolf 127 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:52,960 Speaker 3: who was on a walk about of her own. So 128 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:57,279 Speaker 3: somehow in there wasn't another wolf for thousands of square miles. 129 00:06:57,279 --> 00:07:00,120 Speaker 3: Somehow these two wolves managed to find each other, and 130 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 3: when they bred, they became the first wolf pack back 131 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 3: in the Italian Apps for more than a century. So 132 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 3: in one way, it was this remarkable love story that 133 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:10,559 Speaker 3: I was drawn to. The female wolf ended up getting 134 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:13,960 Speaker 3: called Juliet because they were very close to Verona, and 135 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 3: Romeo and julieta still Verona's most famous couple. So I 136 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 3: was really drawn to this incredible meeting in this love 137 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 3: story between these two animals. But of course not everyone 138 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 3: is quite so quite so in love with the idea 139 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 3: of having wolves back in the mountains. 140 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:31,640 Speaker 1: Now, as you definitely discussed in the book, when we 141 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 1: talk about wolves, there's often a lot of separating the 142 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 1: biological reality of wolves from human mythmaking about wolves and misconceptions. 143 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 1: Coming back to the title of the book, Lone Wolf, 144 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 1: can you remind us just what a lone wolf actually is, 145 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 1: and in comparison to maybe some of the ideas that 146 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:51,440 Speaker 1: we have about lone wolves. 147 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, so I really wanted to call it lone wolf, 148 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 3: and we had a bit of pushback sort of an 149 00:07:57,160 --> 00:07:58,960 Speaker 3: editorial meetings and stuff. But to me, it was really 150 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:02,200 Speaker 3: important to call it loanew because I wanted to challenge 151 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 3: this idea of what a lone wolf is. We think 152 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 3: of a lone wolf as this kind of eastward archetype, 153 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:10,160 Speaker 3: you know, this hero riding off into the sunset who 154 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 3: doesn't need anyone or anything, Whereas what I realized from 155 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:16,679 Speaker 3: following Schlaus is that actually a lone wolf is simply 156 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 3: something that hasn't found what it's looking for yet. And 157 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 3: a lone wolf is looking for the same three things 158 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 3: that we all are. It's looking for enough land to 159 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 3: live on, it's looking for enough food to eat, and 160 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:30,160 Speaker 3: it's looking for a mate. So and it's an incredibly 161 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:32,679 Speaker 3: vulnerable time for a wolf. There is no more vulnerable time. 162 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:34,679 Speaker 3: Wolves don't hunt well alone. They like to be part 163 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 3: of packs, they like to have a fixed territory. They 164 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 3: are actually an incredibly conservative species, very shy, very hard 165 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:45,120 Speaker 3: to see. So to set off on these journeys, as 166 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:48,559 Speaker 3: a particular kind of subset of wolves are hardwired to do. 167 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 3: To disperse like this is an incredibly dangerous, perilous time 168 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:56,680 Speaker 3: for them, and not a not a proud, self sufficient 169 00:08:56,679 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 3: state that they want to end up in. 170 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 1: Now. In chronicling this journey, you sometimes rte from the 171 00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:05,800 Speaker 1: point of view of Slouts himself in the book, and 172 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 1: I thought this was a lovely choice. It makes for 173 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:11,480 Speaker 1: some very poetic passages. Can you describe your process for 174 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 1: imagining the mindset of the wolf and how this factored 175 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 1: into your approach. 176 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:15,800 Speaker 2: Yeah. 177 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:18,400 Speaker 3: Thanks. I toyed with it for a while, and in 178 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:21,320 Speaker 3: the end it felt important. I didn't want to say that, 179 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:23,560 Speaker 3: you know, I was seeing the world as a wolf was, 180 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:27,359 Speaker 3: but I wanted in some way to sort of, however clumsily, 181 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:29,720 Speaker 3: kind of get inside Slouse's mind in a way. And 182 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 3: there was something about following his journey. So the track 183 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 3: and collar that you had to put on him, it 184 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:38,960 Speaker 3: gave one waypoint every one hundred and ninety minutes for 185 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 3: the entire four months of his walk, And before I 186 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:45,080 Speaker 3: set off, I transferred each of those waypoints onto this 187 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:47,440 Speaker 3: big stack of maps that I carried in my rucksack, 188 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 3: and as I walked, As I followed this path, you 189 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 3: started to get some sort of sense of how this 190 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:57,360 Speaker 3: wolf was seeing the world's you know, on the map. 191 00:09:57,400 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 3: It might have not seemed to make sense why he'd 192 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:02,720 Speaker 3: suddenly changed compass point and set off on a different bearing, 193 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 3: But then when I got to this point, I realized 194 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 3: that I could hear the airport, or hear a highway, 195 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 3: or I could you know, see a town for the 196 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:12,960 Speaker 3: first time as we come over a hill, or the 197 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 3: other places where he turned round because it was a 198 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:19,439 Speaker 3: mountain pass and the winter that he traveled, it's incredibly snowy, 199 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:21,960 Speaker 3: and a lot of these places are just inaccessible, so 200 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 3: in some way that you couldn't get from just looking 201 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 3: at the data on the page. By doing this walk, 202 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 3: I started to sense some sort of way that the 203 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 3: wolf was moving through a landscape in a way, and 204 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:34,560 Speaker 3: often looking for the easiest route as well, often following 205 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 3: the river or the bike path down a valley rather 206 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:42,080 Speaker 3: than going over a mountain range. And yeah, I felt 207 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:44,120 Speaker 3: by the end of this walk, after following in his 208 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:46,080 Speaker 3: footsteps for a few months, that I'd kind of earned 209 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:48,320 Speaker 3: the right to at least try and write a little 210 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 3: bit from his from his perspective. 211 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:52,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, humans have of course long considered the wholf. We've 212 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:57,000 Speaker 1: long seen shades of them and us, and shades of 213 00:10:57,120 --> 00:11:01,360 Speaker 1: us and them. So yeah, this is this is I guess, 214 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 1: a long standing area of analysis and consideration, right, like, 215 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 1: how are wolves like us? And how are we like 216 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 1: the wolf? 217 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, we obviously go way back. The wolf is the 218 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 3: first animal we domesticated, it's the first animal we lived alongside. 219 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 3: And there are these really interesting similarities between the two 220 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:24,960 Speaker 3: of us. We're two of the very few species on 221 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:27,599 Speaker 3: the planet that hunt prey that are larger than ourselves. 222 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:30,600 Speaker 3: That's unusual in the animal world. And in order to 223 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:32,560 Speaker 3: do that, that means that you need to work together 224 00:11:32,559 --> 00:11:35,559 Speaker 3: as a pack. And then when you start working together 225 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 3: as a pack, that requires division of labor, and it 226 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:42,640 Speaker 3: requires hierarchy, and it requires some sort of quite complex 227 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:46,400 Speaker 3: social organization. And so in some ways there's this real 228 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 3: affinity between how humans work together and how wolves work together. 229 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 3: And I think that probably is the reason that we 230 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:55,560 Speaker 3: found each other in kind of hunting gather at times 231 00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 3: and decided to work together, essentially because we had this 232 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 3: sort of underst and we both like to run after 233 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:03,240 Speaker 3: pray and tire them out, and that is the way 234 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:05,080 Speaker 3: that that is the way that they hunt, as opposed 235 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:08,600 Speaker 3: to a big cat or something like that. And I 236 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:12,280 Speaker 3: think it's almost that closeness. There was a wolf behavioral 237 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:14,160 Speaker 3: scientist that I met in Austria and he said to me, 238 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:15,960 Speaker 3: either you love your brother or you hate your brother. 239 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 3: There's nothing in between. And I think it's almost that 240 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:21,000 Speaker 3: closeness that we feel to wolves. And obviously we see 241 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:22,840 Speaker 3: that in our relationship to dogs as well, which are 242 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:26,079 Speaker 3: essentially the same animal. That we've had this incredible bond 243 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 3: with them, but that's very easily quickly flipped into a 244 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 3: hatred that I don't think we have for any other 245 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 3: animal either. 246 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 1: And that speaking of that hatred and sort of like 247 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:39,120 Speaker 1: the dark side of that bond. You write a bit 248 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 1: in the book about Europe's three centuries of werewolf trials 249 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:45,319 Speaker 1: and the werewolf panic. Can you tell us a bit 250 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:48,000 Speaker 1: about this period of time and how it matches up 251 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:50,960 Speaker 1: with the timeline of the Eurasian wolf's decline. 252 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:55,959 Speaker 3: Sure, so, yeah, to kind of to break that down 253 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 3: a bit, maybe I can say a bit first just 254 00:12:57,480 --> 00:12:59,680 Speaker 3: about the kind of the extermination of the wolf in 255 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 3: generole because we began at that point, as I was saying, 256 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:07,440 Speaker 3: with that sort of hunter, gather a relationship to the wolf. 257 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 3: I think it's two hunters almost respecting each other. But 258 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:14,360 Speaker 3: as soon as we became herders, as soon as we 259 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:17,640 Speaker 3: put up fences and started to keep livestock, the wolf 260 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 3: became this animal that was on the other side of 261 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 3: the fence. Suddenly we had something that the wolf wanted, 262 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 3: and very quickly it flipped into the wolf being the 263 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:30,720 Speaker 3: thief the vagabonds, and from a Christian lens, if Jesus 264 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:32,880 Speaker 3: is the lamb, then then the wolf is the devil. 265 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 3: And the persecution that they've faced over millennia, really ever 266 00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:41,040 Speaker 3: since there's been money to pay them, there have been 267 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:43,160 Speaker 3: bounties out on wolves heads, kind of back to sixth 268 00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:45,959 Speaker 3: century BC and Athens there were bounties out on wolves. 269 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 3: Charlemagne from about eighteen from about eight hundreds sorry in 270 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 3: France started trying to eradicate the wolf, but it took 271 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:56,440 Speaker 3: almost a thousand years. It wasn't until nineteen twenty seven 272 00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 3: that wolves were finally gone from France, And in some 273 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:01,319 Speaker 3: ways it was in the United States where that kind 274 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:05,400 Speaker 3: of hatred of the wolf really reached another reached a pinnacle. 275 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:08,440 Speaker 3: Basically that the ways that wolves were killed, they were 276 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:11,760 Speaker 3: set on fire, they were pulled apart by horses, they 277 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:15,199 Speaker 3: were beaten to death, and then paraded through town on 278 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 3: the back of horses. The estimates of up to two 279 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 3: million wolves were killed in the latter half of the 280 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:24,400 Speaker 3: nineteenth century in the United States, and then and then 281 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 3: and the Native Americans saw it as as a manifestation 282 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 3: of insanity. It was said, it was seen as a 283 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:33,000 Speaker 3: manifestation of insanity amongst the amongst the white settlers that 284 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 3: were that were killing these animals, and the yeah, and 285 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:41,720 Speaker 3: there's something you're doing this research. It really seemed to 286 00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:44,240 Speaker 3: border on a hatred to wipe out that many animals, 287 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 3: right down to the very last animal. It feels like 288 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 3: it requires a stronger motivation than just a desire to 289 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:53,200 Speaker 3: protect one sheep. It and and the werewolf Charles that 290 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:55,120 Speaker 3: you mentioned at the beginning of that question seemed to 291 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 3: be one of those particular manifestations of that sort of 292 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:00,920 Speaker 3: paranoia and hate. I'm some of your listeners will be 293 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:03,960 Speaker 3: familiar with the witch trials, like the Salem witch trials, 294 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:06,720 Speaker 3: and we had them a lot in Europe. As well. 295 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 3: Thousands of women were killed over over several centuries, but 296 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 3: I wasn't aware that people were actually put to death 297 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:16,640 Speaker 3: for being accused of being were wolves as well. And 298 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 3: one of the u there were two towns actually in 299 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:25,080 Speaker 3: Austria that Schloutz's route passed through were places whereas late 300 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 3: as the early eighteenth century, people were being put on 301 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 3: trial and hung for being were wolves, and quite often 302 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 3: the accused seemed to be travelers, wanderers, beggars, people that 303 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 3: might turn up in town. Maybe two sheep were killed 304 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 3: that night, and the local people decided to put two 305 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 3: and two together and and persecute the outsider for bringing 306 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 3: this ill upon the town. 307 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:58,720 Speaker 1: I'm glad you mentioned the agricultural aspect of hatred of 308 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 1: the wolf. Had recently read a couple of different books 309 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 1: looking at and were wolf myths and legends and talking 310 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:10,680 Speaker 1: about how in some cases you see people trying to 311 00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 1: to date the idea of were wolve's back to our 312 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:17,440 Speaker 1: prehistoric ancestors in this time when we lived closer to 313 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 1: the wolf, and certainly when we domesticated the wolf. But 314 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:23,360 Speaker 1: then I think the more convincing stories that I've read 315 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 1: have made the argument that it is. These are ultimately 316 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 1: agricultural era tales. These are tales of fear of the 317 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 1: wolf and analysis of the wolf in a time when 318 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 1: we are worried about our sheep and our herds and 319 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:40,960 Speaker 1: our dominion over nature. 320 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 3: I don't think that's to say that it's a kind 321 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 3: of obviously it's a misguided assumption. But obviously, you know, 322 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:48,760 Speaker 3: to these people, it's not like now when you can 323 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 3: get compensation from the state for a wolf kill on 324 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 3: the sheep. Wolves don't kill a huge amount of livestock, 325 00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:04,240 Speaker 3: but they can target certain farms and certain herds, and 326 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:07,240 Speaker 3: so someone might lose twenty of their thirty sheep, and 327 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:10,160 Speaker 3: that would have been an absolutely existential crisis a few hundred 328 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:12,359 Speaker 3: years ago. That was your way of getting through the winter, 329 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:14,679 Speaker 3: that was your way of feeding your very large family. 330 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:19,200 Speaker 3: It would have felt horrifying to be targeted in that way. 331 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:22,400 Speaker 3: And I can see the trials against the were wolves 332 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:25,120 Speaker 3: and also the kind of ambulets and charms and things 333 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:28,119 Speaker 3: that people tried to as some way of trying to 334 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 3: have dominion over nature when nature felt really outside of 335 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 3: one's control. 336 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:37,120 Speaker 1: Now and my recent reading about some of these werewolf 337 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:38,680 Speaker 1: that's one of the books that I was looking at 338 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 1: was a twenty twenty one book by Daniel Ogden called 339 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:45,119 Speaker 1: The Werewolf in the Ancient World, And there's one quote 340 00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 1: in that that I keep coming back to, where he 341 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 1: says the quote wolves are in and of themselves were 342 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:52,200 Speaker 1: wolves already in so far that is, as they combine 343 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:55,240 Speaker 1: the qualities of the wildest and most lawless of animals 344 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 1: with those of civilization and humanity. And I kept coming 345 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 1: back in that, not to just harp like negative connotations 346 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:04,560 Speaker 1: of the wolf, but I thought this was interesting and 347 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:07,720 Speaker 1: sort of looking at the wolf as this thing that 348 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:12,480 Speaker 1: already mirrors a lot about humans, like not just potential savagery, 349 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 1: but also how social wolves are, something that I think 350 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:19,920 Speaker 1: is sometimes very often overlooked. Certainly, and we're wolf stories, 351 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:22,679 Speaker 1: but just in general, I was wonder if you might 352 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 1: speak to He's touched on this already a little bit, 353 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:27,840 Speaker 1: but speak to just how social wolves are and how 354 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 1: how like humans they are in this regard. 355 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:33,159 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think in some ways they're they're almost an 356 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:36,880 Speaker 3: aspiration or animal. You know, they were obviously genetically far 357 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:41,560 Speaker 3: closer to chimpanzees, but I think we in wolves we 358 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:43,720 Speaker 3: see qualities of almost how we would like to be. 359 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:45,919 Speaker 3: You know, you go to you go to zoom and 360 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 3: watch chimpanzees, you obviously see something in them, But to 361 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:52,320 Speaker 3: watch a wolf is to is to see how humans 362 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:55,359 Speaker 3: could be. I think, you know, wolves, wolves are excellent parents. 363 00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 3: They're one of the very few animals where the males 364 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:00,720 Speaker 3: will stick around long after the birth to look after 365 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:05,639 Speaker 3: both the pups and the suckling mother. They are incredibly loyal, 366 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:12,359 Speaker 3: They are courageous and resourceful, and you know, often I 367 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 3: met a lot of people, a lot of farmers on 368 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 3: my journey through the Apps, who absolutely detested wolves, you know, 369 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:20,520 Speaker 3: for the burdens that they put on their lives. But 370 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:23,239 Speaker 3: I still got this sense that if they if they 371 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:25,679 Speaker 3: were to be reincarnated at some point in the future, 372 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:27,240 Speaker 3: if they were going to come back as animal, they'd 373 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 3: really like to come back as a wolf. You know. 374 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, how when people think about wolves, 375 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:36,360 Speaker 1: there is often this aspirational aspect of it, like they 376 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:38,399 Speaker 1: don't actually be a were wolf, but the idea of 377 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 1: being like free like a wolf, of having the wolf 378 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 1: is kind of like a you know, a symbolic animal 379 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 1: in one's mind. 380 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:47,960 Speaker 3: And it's worth saying we've spoken about the kind of 381 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:51,639 Speaker 3: hatred and the hatred that we've put on them. That 382 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:55,359 Speaker 3: adulation of the wolf is also a misconception. One of 383 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:57,119 Speaker 3: the things that I found in this book is that 384 00:19:57,160 --> 00:19:59,200 Speaker 3: almost the hardest thing about a wolf is to see 385 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 3: it for what it is, which is a wolf. It 386 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:03,960 Speaker 3: seems to be this vessel for our fears and our 387 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:06,639 Speaker 3: hopes and our dreams, and particularly how we relate to 388 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:10,359 Speaker 3: the natural world. And whilst once upon a time that 389 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:14,240 Speaker 3: might have been this sense of destroying the wolf in 390 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:18,280 Speaker 3: order to kind of manifest progress and civilization, now we 391 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:21,240 Speaker 3: have all these anxieties about what we're doing to the 392 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:23,360 Speaker 3: world and what we're doing to our futures, and once 393 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:25,400 Speaker 3: again the wolf has become this vescl but this time 394 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:27,960 Speaker 3: it's something that's almost going to save us from ourselves 395 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:29,480 Speaker 3: rather than destroyers. 396 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 1: In the book, you draw connections between the comeback of 397 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:36,080 Speaker 1: the wild wolf and the refugee crisis in Europe. Can 398 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 1: you elaborate on this for us a bit? 399 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, in several ways. I was first drawn to this 400 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:46,560 Speaker 3: story actually because Licinia, which is this small regional park 401 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:49,720 Speaker 3: in Italy where Schlutz finished his journey, where he bumped 402 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:54,199 Speaker 3: into Juliet and where they formed their first pack. It 403 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:56,160 Speaker 3: was also a part of the Alps where a lot 404 00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 3: of refugees who were arriving in Italy they divide by 405 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:02,919 Speaker 3: to lamproducer and then they'd straight away get taken to 406 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:06,520 Speaker 3: these settlement centers. And there was one in Licinia right 407 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:08,520 Speaker 3: up in the Apps and the middle of nowhere, completely 408 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:12,359 Speaker 3: cut off in winter, and these people that were arriving 409 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:15,120 Speaker 3: from North Africa and from the Middle East were being 410 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:20,040 Speaker 3: taken to these This is a former NATO barracks. And 411 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:21,679 Speaker 3: a lot of the language that was being used by 412 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:24,240 Speaker 3: the local people living in these mountains about the refugees 413 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 3: and the wolves was very similar. It you know, we 414 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:30,160 Speaker 3: were here first. These people don't belong here. I don't 415 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 3: have a problem with either wolves or migrants, but their 416 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:36,600 Speaker 3: place isn't here. And not only obviously was that completely 417 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:39,480 Speaker 3: untrue that wolves were in these mountains long before people. 418 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 3: And actually a lot of the Licinians are descendants of 419 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:44,720 Speaker 3: German woodcutters who moved down from Germany a few hundred 420 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:50,200 Speaker 3: years ago. There were these kind of very obvious parallels 421 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:54,040 Speaker 3: I was finding, particularly in how both in the rural 422 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:57,440 Speaker 3: places I was passing through the migrant and the wolf 423 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:01,440 Speaker 3: are both being scapegoated by rural populations for a set 424 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:04,400 Speaker 3: of much more complicated problems, you know, and I think 425 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 3: we see that in the rise of far right politics everywhere. 426 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:12,440 Speaker 3: The migrant is this scapegoat for this incredibly complex range 427 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:16,600 Speaker 3: of problems that are affecting countries, and the wolf seemed 428 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:18,399 Speaker 3: to stand in for that as well. So there seemed 429 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 3: to be this affinity and yeah, kind of the importance 430 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:27,240 Speaker 3: of both the wolf and the migrant for these places, 431 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 3: but then how it was perceived by a local population 432 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:32,720 Speaker 3: as well, and then how the refugee and the wolf 433 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:35,399 Speaker 3: were being used by far right politicians in order to 434 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 3: inflame anger and to chase that populist vote as well. 435 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 1: Well. I really, I really appreciated how you were able 436 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:42,840 Speaker 1: to weave these themes together in the book. 437 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:46,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, it felt I wasn't expecting it, to be honest, 438 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:50,680 Speaker 3: I wasn't expecting it, but increasingly, Yeah, it seemed to 439 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:53,639 Speaker 3: follow me wherever I went. You know that the wolf 440 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:56,800 Speaker 3: has been one of the reasons the wolf has done 441 00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:59,000 Speaker 3: so well in Europe is because it's been protected by 442 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:02,760 Speaker 3: the European Union for the last thirty years or fifty 443 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:05,200 Speaker 3: years in some ways. And so it's a very short 444 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 3: distance to having a problem with the wolf to having 445 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:11,200 Speaker 3: a problem with the European Union. And there are fire parties, 446 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:14,919 Speaker 3: particularly in Austria where the FBO are now the leading party, 447 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 3: where rather than encouraging farmers to try and coexist with 448 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 3: the wolf, and there are proven ways to be able 449 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 3: to co exist with wolves using dogs, using electric fences, 450 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:31,159 Speaker 3: they were almost encouraging farmers not to do that and 451 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 3: actually to just send their flocks up into the mountains 452 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:38,240 Speaker 3: in what one biologist described him as a state sanctioned slaughterhouse. 453 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:42,520 Speaker 3: And then when that drama happens, that would then create 454 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:44,959 Speaker 3: this space for these politicians to say that they're going 455 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:46,880 Speaker 3: to go to the European Union and go to Brussels 456 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:50,240 Speaker 3: and demand a change in law for the protection of 457 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 3: the wolf, which actually has now recently happened, so in 458 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 3: the way that farmers protests, and I do you know, 459 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:03,439 Speaker 3: it's worth saying that I really understand why farmers are 460 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:06,959 Speaker 3: finding it hard to live alongside these carnivores. Again, you know, 461 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 3: there's a lot of farming is a difficult profession at 462 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:13,400 Speaker 3: the best of times. That the year that I did 463 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 3: the walk was the driest summer in Europe for several 464 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 3: hundred years. The price of electricity and animal feed is rocketing. 465 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:27,680 Speaker 3: Since Russia invaded Ukraine, young people are leaving for the cities. 466 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:29,920 Speaker 3: They don't want to farm anymore, and now these farmers 467 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:32,560 Speaker 3: are being asked to live alongside wolves as well. I 468 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:39,560 Speaker 3: understand the fury. And while these complex problems climate change, inflation, etc. 469 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:41,680 Speaker 3: Are hard to manage, at least with a wolf you 470 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:43,320 Speaker 3: can go out and shoot it or be it illegally 471 00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:45,160 Speaker 3: and feel like you have some kind of agency over 472 00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:51,560 Speaker 3: your life. But rather than promoting understanding, rather than delving 473 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 3: into the actual looking for solutions to these more complicated problems, 474 00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:58,440 Speaker 3: that is the place where these far right politicians seem 475 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 3: to be coming in and co opt to their anger 476 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 3: and turning it to their own ends. And that that's 477 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:05,000 Speaker 3: the bit that I want to challenge. Not that I 478 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:08,480 Speaker 3: don't understand why it's difficult for pharmacis live alongside wolves, 479 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 3: but the ways that it's being politicized I think need 480 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:11,240 Speaker 3: to be addressed. 481 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,680 Speaker 1: Now, getting back to the topic of domestication, you touch 482 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:28,280 Speaker 1: on the history of the German shepherd dog breed, which 483 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 1: this was all new to me. I don't know much 484 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 1: about dog breeds, I admit, Can you talk a little 485 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 1: bit about how the German shepherd factors into our ideas 486 00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 1: about the wolf? 487 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:42,960 Speaker 3: Yes, so the German Shepherd I knew none of this 488 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:45,800 Speaker 3: either until I started to research. The German shepherd was 489 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:49,879 Speaker 3: an early twentieth century creation by a guy called matxiwan Stefanitz, 490 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:55,320 Speaker 3: who was a retired German cavalry officer, and he said 491 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 3: that he set out to basically kind of reverse engineer 492 00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:01,200 Speaker 3: a wolf to sort of feed back into a dog 493 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:04,040 Speaker 3: all these qualities that he saw as kind of most 494 00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:07,479 Speaker 3: wolf like and most noble for its size and its strength, 495 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:11,680 Speaker 3: and its power and its willingness to work. And it 496 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:16,280 Speaker 3: really prefigured a lot of the kind of Nazi eugenics ideas, 497 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 3: and the six hundred page manifesto that he wrote about 498 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:23,359 Speaker 3: the German Shepherd had a lot to say about race 499 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:27,320 Speaker 3: and about the purity of race, and very much the 500 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:30,720 Speaker 3: same way that that Nazis would fetishize this kind of 501 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 3: certain area and races as time went on and the Nazis. 502 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:38,399 Speaker 3: For the Nazis, the German shepherd was the kind of 503 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:40,719 Speaker 3: dog that they used in the death camps that they 504 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:44,520 Speaker 3: used on the battlefield. Hitler kept two German shepherds, one 505 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 3: of which he named Wolf. Hitler himself was obsessed by 506 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:52,919 Speaker 3: Wolf's Adolph itself is an old Germanic variation of wolf, 507 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:57,280 Speaker 3: and from he called the Hitler youth his wolf cubs. 508 00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:01,639 Speaker 3: Apparently he went around whistling the Who's Afraid of the 509 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:07,080 Speaker 3: Big Bad Wolf Disney song? You know that he saw 510 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:13,920 Speaker 3: in the wolf this kind of this total animal I suppose, 511 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:17,840 Speaker 3: this sense, this kind of unbridled violence and aggression that 512 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:22,600 Speaker 3: he wanted to breed back into a race of people 513 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:25,359 Speaker 3: that he felt had become weak and soft and powerless. 514 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:29,639 Speaker 3: So for the interesting that the Nazis were the first 515 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:33,399 Speaker 3: people in modern times to actually place environmental protection laws 516 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 3: on the wolf, and it was it was part of 517 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 3: this vision of this kind of utagizing the power of 518 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:41,800 Speaker 3: the animal. 519 00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:45,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, I believe you mentioned in the book that disturbingly 520 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 1: so the Nazis environmental policies were advanced even for today. Yeah. 521 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:54,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, But it was a sense of a kind of 522 00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:58,800 Speaker 3: pristine wilderness that was going to be full of this 523 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:03,080 Speaker 3: sort of race of god like men, you know, and 524 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:10,520 Speaker 3: those kind of large, charismatic, tootemic animals that actually fit 525 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,000 Speaker 3: very well within that sort of wider Nazi vision of 526 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:13,320 Speaker 3: the world. 527 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:16,560 Speaker 1: Interesting that there was some attempt in this to sort 528 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:20,400 Speaker 1: of recreate a wolf, because I know in some generally 529 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:23,720 Speaker 1: not great movies I've seen German shepherds stand in for Wars, 530 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:26,119 Speaker 1: they'll have the part of wild wolves played by arvious 531 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:27,040 Speaker 1: German shepherds. 532 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:30,840 Speaker 3: And then it's worth mentioningly Miscellini as well, because for 533 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 3: Italy there was also a part important, important animal for Mussolini, 534 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 3: but because the founding myth of Rome has the twins 535 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,760 Speaker 3: Romulus and Remus being abandoned in the wilderness and then 536 00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:48,000 Speaker 3: being saved by a she wolf who suckled the twins 537 00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:51,400 Speaker 3: until the shepherd took took them in, and then Romulus 538 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:55,240 Speaker 3: and Remus later went on to found Rome. The wolf 539 00:28:55,360 --> 00:29:01,320 Speaker 3: for the Italians has had that same uh strength and power, 540 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:05,040 Speaker 3: but has also been this kind of nurturing maternal influence, 541 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:09,680 Speaker 3: and Mussolini very much co opted that. Through the whole 542 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:13,000 Speaker 3: of Mussolini's Fascist RaiseMe. There was a live wolf kept 543 00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:15,600 Speaker 3: in a cage in Rome that people could go and 544 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:20,560 Speaker 3: see and actually remain there in various generations of the 545 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:22,800 Speaker 3: wolf up until the nineteen seventies, there's meant to be 546 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:29,520 Speaker 3: this living, fleshy symbol of the power of Mussolini's project. 547 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 1: Now, going back to what you said earlier, this idea 548 00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:36,320 Speaker 1: of the wolf is also serving very particular human aspirations 549 00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:39,720 Speaker 1: and is rather far removed from the more boundariality of 550 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 1: the wolf, including its how social the animal is, how 551 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:46,000 Speaker 1: nurturing the animal can be, and so forth right. 552 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, there's no more prevalent myth about the wolf than 553 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:53,600 Speaker 3: this idea of an alpha wolf, which is now completely discredited. 554 00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 3: The alpha wolf was created by this biologist called Rudolph Schenkel, 555 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:03,400 Speaker 3: working in nineteen thirty four. He began his research just 556 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:07,280 Speaker 3: across the border from Nazi Germany in Switzerland. And again 557 00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:10,120 Speaker 3: it's thought that in his research in many ways was 558 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:13,840 Speaker 3: influenced by the Nazi project that was developing across the border. 559 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:20,080 Speaker 3: And he based his study on a pack of wolves 560 00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:23,000 Speaker 3: that were kept that were drawn from all different places 561 00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:26,960 Speaker 3: and kept in a very small enclosure. And from observing 562 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:30,560 Speaker 3: those wolves and how they were not able to disperse 563 00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:32,480 Speaker 3: and go out and find new territory, like Schatz was 564 00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 3: able to how they were not able to cooperate and hunt, 565 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:37,360 Speaker 3: but actually they were just forced into this small environment. 566 00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:43,240 Speaker 3: There was this completely artificial fighting to be the alpha. 567 00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:46,520 Speaker 3: But that is not how wolves work in the wild. 568 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:49,760 Speaker 3: But that became the basis for understanding how wild wolves 569 00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 3: work for the next fifty years or so. It's now 570 00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:56,560 Speaker 3: been completely discredited in the science, but that sense of 571 00:30:56,560 --> 00:31:01,960 Speaker 3: the alpha wolf does still persist from most devational speakers 572 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:05,600 Speaker 3: and toxic corners of the internet and everything else. We're 573 00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:07,960 Speaker 3: still encouraged to be this idea of the alphab but 574 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:10,840 Speaker 3: that's something because it fits very well with how we 575 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:12,800 Speaker 3: If we can say that wolves do it, then we 576 00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:15,280 Speaker 3: can kind of justify doing it ourselves as well. But 577 00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:16,960 Speaker 3: that is not how wolves work. A wolf pack is 578 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:21,320 Speaker 3: essentially a family in some shape or form, and the 579 00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:26,680 Speaker 3: main pair of wolves will generally stay together for life, 580 00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:31,280 Speaker 3: breed for life, and raise successive generations within the pack. 581 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:34,240 Speaker 1: What is your big hope for readers with this book, 582 00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:37,240 Speaker 1: for them something they might take away about wolves and 583 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:38,520 Speaker 1: also maybe about humans. 584 00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:41,080 Speaker 3: I think one of the things that I've come to 585 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:43,040 Speaker 3: see the wolf has. As we said at the beginning, 586 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:47,320 Speaker 3: we're a long way from reintroducing wolves to the UK, 587 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:51,560 Speaker 3: but I think the reason why wolves are interesting to 588 00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:53,680 Speaker 3: think about whether in a North American context or a 589 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:58,320 Speaker 3: European context, is because I think they really demand answers 590 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:01,280 Speaker 3: of us. They're almost the the disruptors. You know, they 591 00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:04,280 Speaker 3: move fast and they break stuff. And if we think, 592 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:06,160 Speaker 3: you know, we know we need to give more space 593 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:07,880 Speaker 3: to the natural world, we know that we need to 594 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:10,800 Speaker 3: coexist in a better way. But I think wolves really 595 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:14,640 Speaker 3: ask us if we believe that we can or are 596 00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:17,960 Speaker 3: we just paying at service of this? Can we sanction 597 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:20,080 Speaker 3: risk again? Can we sanction living in a world that 598 00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:21,960 Speaker 3: feels a little bit more unknown than what we might 599 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:24,480 Speaker 3: be used to, You know, it was it was tempting 600 00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:27,320 Speaker 3: to me. I work as an environmental journalist. I write 601 00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:30,000 Speaker 3: a lot of stories that seem quite hopeless, and it 602 00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:32,560 Speaker 3: was quite tempting for me with this story to see 603 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:34,520 Speaker 3: the wolf as this kind of beacon of hope. You know, 604 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:37,080 Speaker 3: wolves are doing incredibly well in Europe again and to 605 00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:40,920 Speaker 3: a lesser extent in North America. They're now listed as 606 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,840 Speaker 3: a species of Least Concern in Europe. It's this incredible 607 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:46,920 Speaker 3: environmental success story in a way, and it's really tempting 608 00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:50,320 Speaker 3: to hang on to that as a kind of beacon 609 00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:53,360 Speaker 3: of hope when when in the middle of a biodiversity 610 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:56,240 Speaker 3: crisis and a climate crisis. And you know, again that 611 00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:57,960 Speaker 3: is just seeing the wolf is something that we want 612 00:32:58,000 --> 00:32:59,520 Speaker 3: it to be. Of course, it doesn't really mean that 613 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:01,680 Speaker 3: the earth is healing or anything like that. But but 614 00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:04,280 Speaker 3: for the wolf, this is obviously a massive time of 615 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:07,720 Speaker 3: hope and success and and I think that's really interesting 616 00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:09,760 Speaker 3: to see it in that way, that there is this 617 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:12,960 Speaker 3: incredible desire for life to thrive. I think that that's 618 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:17,760 Speaker 3: what wolves embodied that and and and in response to 619 00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 3: times of crisis, we move, you know, and I think 620 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:22,560 Speaker 3: wolves have always embodied. 621 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:24,240 Speaker 1: That that that that. 622 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:28,360 Speaker 3: Change is inevitable, and there is this desire and this 623 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:33,400 Speaker 3: urge for for for life to flourish. And following Schlaus's 624 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:36,200 Speaker 3: journey across Europe has has really shown me that it's 625 00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:38,360 Speaker 3: you know, however much we try and put up our borders, 626 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:41,520 Speaker 3: however much we try and hem life in it, will 627 00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:43,040 Speaker 3: continue to try and find a. 628 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 1: Way, right, Adam, I have one more question for you, 629 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:57,400 Speaker 1: And I realized this was this was the sillier one, 630 00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:00,760 Speaker 1: but in the acknowledgements for the book, look, you you 631 00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:05,680 Speaker 1: mentioned leaning on Joel Puland for a quote, having watched 632 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:07,920 Speaker 1: every werewolf film out there so that I didn't have 633 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:10,359 Speaker 1: to Could you give us a little a little bit 634 00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:13,520 Speaker 1: about your back and forth with Joel here? What what 635 00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:15,000 Speaker 1: did this have? This go down? 636 00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:18,279 Speaker 3: He sent me. Joey's a friend of mine who works 637 00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:20,239 Speaker 3: at the British Film Institute. We've been We've been friends 638 00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:22,120 Speaker 3: for ever. He he's not just watched everywhere wolf film going, 639 00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:24,880 Speaker 3: He's watched every film going at this point. It's an 640 00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:28,600 Speaker 3: incredible resource. And yeah, there's a lot of werewolf films 641 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:30,640 Speaker 3: out there, there's a lot of wolf literature out there. 642 00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:32,960 Speaker 3: I remember sort of going into the British Library at 643 00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:35,879 Speaker 3: the beginning of this research and typing in Wolf into 644 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:39,000 Speaker 3: the library archive and being absolutely overwhelmed. My last book 645 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:42,400 Speaker 3: was about Salmon, and the literature was a lot less 646 00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:46,319 Speaker 3: intimidating than it was about the wolf, and the were 647 00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:51,040 Speaker 3: wolf subset of that is again is again vast. But 648 00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:54,520 Speaker 3: he set me on to some of the classics which 649 00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:57,520 Speaker 3: I've never seen. Gingers Naps, I'd never seen. American Werewolf 650 00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:00,600 Speaker 3: in London, I'd never seen. And but it felt like 651 00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:02,279 Speaker 3: a werewol would be many things to many people. It 652 00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:06,160 Speaker 3: seems to it's standing for kind of whatever our paranoia 653 00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:11,000 Speaker 3: and preoccupations are at the time. But compared to the 654 00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:13,520 Speaker 3: actual werewolf trials that I was seeing, that the ones 655 00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:18,440 Speaker 3: in films like Ginger Snaps, it's always the lover, the 656 00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,400 Speaker 3: best friend that seems to be possessed, whereas the werewolf 657 00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:25,239 Speaker 3: trials it was always the unknown, stranger, the vacant. But 658 00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:28,719 Speaker 3: it seems to lean into that. You know, it's in 659 00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:31,640 Speaker 3: the same way as when you watch a wolf in 660 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:34,160 Speaker 3: a zoo or something like that. It looks it looks 661 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:36,560 Speaker 3: like every dog that you know. You know, you feel 662 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:39,560 Speaker 3: like you can understand what it's thinking because you you 663 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:41,080 Speaker 3: sort of think you know what a dog's thinking. But 664 00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:45,719 Speaker 3: then there's this kind of unhinged element as well that 665 00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:47,520 Speaker 3: suddenly it will foe you and you realize you're not 666 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:49,680 Speaker 3: watching a dog at all. You're watching this other, completely 667 00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:52,279 Speaker 3: wild thing. And I think that's what the werewolf thing 668 00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:55,000 Speaker 3: touches on, That we're watching someone and we think we 669 00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:58,160 Speaker 3: understand them, but actually within that there is this wild, 670 00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:02,200 Speaker 3: unhinged part of them. Bitch, it's not just terrifying, it's 671 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:05,319 Speaker 3: also it's also quite thrilling, you know, But there's a 672 00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:08,200 Speaker 3: temptation in the werewolf there just to kind of let 673 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:11,279 Speaker 3: go and see what happens if we, you know, run 674 00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:12,000 Speaker 3: off into the night. 675 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:14,480 Speaker 1: Adam, well, thanks so much for taking time out of 676 00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:16,600 Speaker 1: your day to chat with me here. The book again 677 00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:20,200 Speaker 1: is Lone Wolf Walking the Line between Civilization and Wildness. 678 00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:21,760 Speaker 3: Thanks rep, thanks for having me on. 679 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:27,319 Speaker 1: All right. Thanks once more to Adam for coming on 680 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:29,880 Speaker 1: the show and chatting with me. The book again is 681 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:33,200 Speaker 1: Lone Wolf Walking the Line between Civilization and Wildness and 682 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:35,760 Speaker 1: as of June third, you'll find it in the US 683 00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:39,400 Speaker 1: in all major formats. Thanks as always to the excellent 684 00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:42,600 Speaker 1: JJ Possway for producing this show. And if you have 685 00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:46,520 Speaker 1: any questions, episodes, suggestions, and so forth you would like 686 00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:49,360 Speaker 1: to send to us, you can email us at contact 687 00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:59,000 Speaker 1: That's stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. 688 00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:03,200 Speaker 2: All Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts 689 00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:06,799 Speaker 2: from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 690 00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:26,640 Speaker 2: you're listening to your favorite shows. M