WEBVTT - Short Stuff: Victorian Flower Language

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<v Speaker 1>Hey, and welcome to the short stuff. I'm Josh, and

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<v Speaker 1>there's Chuck. And that's all that needs mentioning today because

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<v Speaker 1>it's just us. So this is short.

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<v Speaker 2>Stuff, that's right. And by the way, I wanted to

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<v Speaker 2>thank you for sending over that beautiful nosegay of wilted

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<v Speaker 2>white roses, delivered upside down with the ribbon to the left.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, may I ask where on your chest? Are you

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<v Speaker 1>wearing it near my bodice in the center or right

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<v Speaker 1>in the center?

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<v Speaker 2>Baby?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I guess we're good friends. Then I can live

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<v Speaker 1>with that. Although I'm not sure what I was saying

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<v Speaker 1>with the whole thing.

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<v Speaker 2>It's kind of yeah, i'd have to get out a

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<v Speaker 2>code decoder book or whatever.

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<v Speaker 1>Well they had those, Chuck. What we're talking about was floriography,

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<v Speaker 1>and there were a lot of floriography books, because it

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<v Speaker 1>turns out floriography was a huge deal in the Victorian

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<v Speaker 1>and Regency areas. I guess between a couple of decades

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<v Speaker 1>on either side of the nineteenth and twentieth century divide

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<v Speaker 1>the DMZ of those centuries. As it were, this was

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<v Speaker 1>it was really popular to send unspoken messages using flowers.

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<v Speaker 2>That's right, unspoken because at the time in the UK

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<v Speaker 2>and parts of the US, obviously in Europe in certain

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<v Speaker 2>you know, high societies, mainly you could not speak these

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<v Speaker 2>things allowed a lot of times it was untoward. So

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<v Speaker 2>you had to have a coded way of talking to

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<v Speaker 2>each other. And if you're thinking like, oh, yeah, you

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<v Speaker 2>send flowers to someone and that means something, Yeah, it

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<v Speaker 2>goes deep. I mean it is literally a code. And

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<v Speaker 2>that's what I was kind of referring to with the

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<v Speaker 2>upside down and the wilted and the where the ribbons tied,

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<v Speaker 2>like all that stuff means something.

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<v Speaker 1>It does. Yeah, it is quite deep, and you can

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<v Speaker 1>send quite complex messages and what kind of show what

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<v Speaker 1>we're talking about. But first I want to shout out

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<v Speaker 1>some great sources that helped with this Farmer's Almanac. The

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<v Speaker 1>Iowa State University Extension, Pedal Republic, it's a great name.

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<v Speaker 1>Author Sarah on Substack, Clive Rose, Georgina Garden Center, Thursdad,

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<v Speaker 1>just the d flower Meaning and historical Holly all help

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<v Speaker 1>us this. So thanks to all of you.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's wonderful. So this is nothing new or was

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<v Speaker 2>nothing new back then. Coded messages through flowers goes back

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<v Speaker 2>to the sixteen hundreds at least in the Ottoman Empire,

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<v Speaker 2>when they had a tradition called selim or sealim se

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<v Speaker 2>l a m, which was a game where between the

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<v Speaker 2>members of the Harem of Constantinople, where they would send

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<v Speaker 2>flowers attached with like rhymes and meanings and stuff like

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<v Speaker 2>that to communicate with one another.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, which made sense because a lot of them couldn't

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<v Speaker 1>read or write, so flowers did the talking forum. And

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<v Speaker 1>this actually spread from the Ottoman Empire to Europe via

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<v Speaker 1>one single person, a British aristocrat who is married to

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<v Speaker 1>the British Ambassador to Turkey. Her name was Lady Mary Wortley,

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<v Speaker 1>and she would send back letters to friends and family

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<v Speaker 1>describing all of the new and exotic customs of this

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<v Speaker 1>land that she had moved to. She moved to Constantinople,

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<v Speaker 1>and among them was a description of salam or salam selim,

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<v Speaker 1>which how did you say it?

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<v Speaker 2>I said, sell them or selim. I'm not sure if

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<v Speaker 2>it's a long or shorty.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, the flower coat that the harrm workers had come

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<v Speaker 1>up with. She wrote a letter about that, and somebody

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<v Speaker 1>got it and said, this is great. I want to

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<v Speaker 1>tell everybody in the UK about it.

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<v Speaker 2>That's right. And by the way, I mentioned a couple

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<v Speaker 2>of puns in the Operation Paul Bunyan episode. Which one

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<v Speaker 2>were you thinking because you said you remembered.

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<v Speaker 1>One that the code stemmed back.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that was one.

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<v Speaker 1>That's the only one I can think of.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, no, here's the other one. Botany was a growing field.

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<v Speaker 1>How did I miss that pun sensor is covered with dirt?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, no, that's good. You want to pack some mud

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<v Speaker 2>on that thing.

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<v Speaker 1>I know, but I don't like walking past stuff. I

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<v Speaker 1>like to take part, you know, and be involved in

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<v Speaker 1>the mix.

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<v Speaker 2>So botany was a growing field, and floriography was, like

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<v Speaker 2>I said, among certain classes, you know, mainly upper class women,

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<v Speaker 2>because you know, it wasn't like the kind of thing

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<v Speaker 2>that you could really talk about openly in that class.

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<v Speaker 2>And this is one thing I haven't seen Emily yet

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<v Speaker 2>today because she got out of the house early. But

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<v Speaker 2>I wanted to ask her because she's, you know, like

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of GenEx women are obsessed with Jane Austen

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<v Speaker 2>stuff and sense and sensibility and all those series and

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<v Speaker 2>movies and books, and I wondered if she knew about

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<v Speaker 2>this or if they in those because I've never watched

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<v Speaker 2>any of them, if they were kind of pointed stuff out, like, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>he sent the flowers this way and that means this.

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<v Speaker 1>But that's I mean, that's the Browni sisters and Jane

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<v Speaker 1>Austin used a lot of floriography to help kind of

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<v Speaker 1>develop their characters, which I guess, so I guess they did. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>they definitely did. And the readers at the time probably

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<v Speaker 1>would have picked up this. But floriography is it's become

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<v Speaker 1>so arcane and obscure that modern readers would not pick

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<v Speaker 1>up on it. But if you learn about floriography and

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<v Speaker 1>you start reading Jane Austin, apparently it'll show up.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh well, no, that's what I was wondering if in

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<v Speaker 2>the books and they said, like, oh, will he sent

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<v Speaker 2>an upside down thing which means blah blah blah.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, yeah, they would do that. I found a quote

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<v Speaker 1>from Pride and Prejudice from Jane Austen.

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<v Speaker 2>Ooh, can you read it in character?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, it's the narrator, so sure, I guess I can,

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<v Speaker 1>because the narrator sounds exactly like me. Yeah, but Elizabeth

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<v Speaker 1>Bennett is giving a flower to mister Darcy, and the

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<v Speaker 1>narrator describes she gave a red rose to tell him

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<v Speaker 1>that she loved him Red Rose, red red red, red

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<v Speaker 1>red Rose Rose Rose, red red Rose, red Rose, red Rose,

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<v Speaker 1>red red red red. And then in the i think

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<v Speaker 1>the first edition, the word red is just repeated over

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<v Speaker 1>and over for three pages before it just stops. In

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<v Speaker 1>a new chapter starts.

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<v Speaker 2>That's so hot. Yeah, all right, I need to go

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<v Speaker 2>cool down. Should we take a break?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah? I think so. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>All right, we'll come back and tell you about a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of this what these coated flowers mean right after this.

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<v Speaker 1>If you want to know, then you're in luck. Just

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<v Speaker 1>listen to h Suffus stuffus. No, so, Chuck, you mentioned

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<v Speaker 1>that I gave you a nosegay. Another great word for

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<v Speaker 1>a nosegay is a tuessy mussy, and floriography in the

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<v Speaker 1>Victorian Age started to get popular at the same time

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<v Speaker 1>that tuessy mussies and nosegays were popular too. And they're

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<v Speaker 1>really kind of small, short, tightly bound bouquets that you

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<v Speaker 1>would kind of wear, almost as like a booteneer or

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<v Speaker 1>a corsage. Okay, they were made of flowers and herbs,

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<v Speaker 1>so not just flowers, but herbs had their own meanings too,

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<v Speaker 1>so like rosemary was for remembrance and mint was for clarity.

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<v Speaker 1>Moss even had its own meaning charity or maternal love.

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<v Speaker 1>Throw a violet in there, maybe for modesty. If you

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<v Speaker 1>put all those together in a little tussy musty and

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<v Speaker 1>gave it to somebody, you would be saying something like,

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<v Speaker 1>I modestly ask you to clearly remember me with either

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<v Speaker 1>charity or maternal love your pick.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, which would be a very confusing message. It would

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<v Speaker 2>be paging doctor Freud on that one, for sure. So

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<v Speaker 2>the obviously, you know, the type of flower is gonna matter.

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<v Speaker 2>The color of the flower is gonna matter. Many messages

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<v Speaker 2>could be sent. If you wanted to send a message

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<v Speaker 2>of rejection or disappointment, it could be a yellow carnation

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<v Speaker 2>or a yellow rose. But if you send a yellow lily,

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<v Speaker 2>that means that you're just sort of over the moon

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<v Speaker 2>and walking on air.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Obviously, the red rose is going to mean I love

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<v Speaker 2>you you. White rose is purity, a yellow roses loss

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<v Speaker 2>of love, and a crimson rose is for morning with

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<v Speaker 2>mu are right?

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<v Speaker 1>And I mean like that is just skimming the surface.

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<v Speaker 1>Just the color of different types of roses, right, or

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<v Speaker 1>different color roses the state that the flowers and mattered

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<v Speaker 1>a lot too. You may mention, I think of a

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<v Speaker 1>withered rose in the tussy mussy I gave you. If

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<v Speaker 1>you gave somebody just a plain white rose, you could

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<v Speaker 1>be saying, like, I think you're heavenly, you're very pure,

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<v Speaker 1>and I like that. But if the white rose was withered,

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<v Speaker 1>you were telling them that they made no impression on

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<v Speaker 1>you whatsoever, or that you think their beauty is fleeting,

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<v Speaker 1>so remember that. And then if it was dried, you

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<v Speaker 1>were saying, I would rather die than to give into

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<v Speaker 1>your advances because I care about my virtue. And I'm

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<v Speaker 1>sure you could be like, you know, if you gave

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<v Speaker 1>somebody a withered rose, would you'd be like, is this

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<v Speaker 1>dried or withered? What are you trying to stay? Here?

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<v Speaker 1>So I know how much was like in the beholder's eye?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, I mean translation is important, and you know

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<v Speaker 2>we'll get to that here in a sec. But a

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<v Speaker 2>thornless rose means you've fallen in love at first sight.

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<v Speaker 2>Thornless crimson rose means you're mourning, because remember crimson rose

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<v Speaker 2>this morning, but you're mourning an unrequited love at first sight.

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<v Speaker 2>And also the context really matters like you know, you

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<v Speaker 2>obviously kind of know what's going on between you. It's

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<v Speaker 2>when you're getting these or you know you're you're seeking clarity,

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<v Speaker 2>but you you know there's an established thing kind of

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<v Speaker 2>happening here for your own context. So if you get

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<v Speaker 2>a hydrangea, it can be thanking the receiver for understanding,

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<v Speaker 2>or that you think they're frigid and heartless. So you

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<v Speaker 2>really got to kind of have a read on the

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<v Speaker 2>general air of the relationship.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, same with like petunias. You could be saying you

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<v Speaker 1>soothed me or I resent to you. So the context

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<v Speaker 1>definitely mattered. But the reason why like hydranges and peonies

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<v Speaker 1>and almost all of the flowers had multiple meanings was

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<v Speaker 1>not because they needed to pull double duty because we

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<v Speaker 1>didn't have enough flowers and enough colors. Like if you

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<v Speaker 1>put all those together, you have a mind boggling number

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<v Speaker 1>of combinations. So that wasn't it. The reason they had

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<v Speaker 1>multiple meanings was because there were many, many different floriography

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<v Speaker 1>books and essentially a lot of them just assign different

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<v Speaker 1>meanings to different flowers. Yeah, so when you gave somebody flowers,

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<v Speaker 1>especially if there wasn't a lot of context yet, you

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<v Speaker 1>were just hoping that you guys were working from the

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<v Speaker 1>same book.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, that's that's huge.

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<v Speaker 1>I think there were ninety eight different guides just in

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<v Speaker 1>the United States alone that were circulating from eighteen twenty

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<v Speaker 1>seven to nineteen twenty three.

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<v Speaker 2>Not helpful at all. And then you know, I also

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<v Speaker 2>mentioned that they were presented upside down. That also matters.

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<v Speaker 2>If they are upside down, that's it basically says it's

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<v Speaker 2>opposite day. So I guess you're trying to sort of

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<v Speaker 2>maybe confuse if like if Mum is looking on and

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<v Speaker 2>sees these flowers, But it would seem like Mum would

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<v Speaker 2>know about opposite day too, So I'm not really sure.

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<v Speaker 2>You know why they would do that, Maybe to throw

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<v Speaker 2>somebody off the scent. Who knows. How the ribbon was

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<v Speaker 2>tied also matters. Tied to the left, it's the symbolism

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<v Speaker 2>is applied to the giver, Right, it's tied to the

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<v Speaker 2>right if it's in reference to the recipient.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, I know, this is how deep it kits.

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<v Speaker 1>It could also express a lot of negative meanings, and

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<v Speaker 1>I think that's what you were doing when you handed

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<v Speaker 1>a bouquet upside down. You'd have to be pretty sharp

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<v Speaker 1>to put a bunch of mean flowers in and then

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<v Speaker 1>hand it to the person upside down to let them

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<v Speaker 1>know you meant the opposite.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but there's a lot of trouble to go through.

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<v Speaker 1>Right there. Were Like you could be talking about jealousy

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<v Speaker 1>with marigolds. You could be expressing distrust with lavender orange

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<v Speaker 1>lily straight up said I hate you. You could say

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<v Speaker 1>I feel deceived with snapdragons. You could declare war with

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<v Speaker 1>a flower called a tansy, which I hadn't heard of before.

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<v Speaker 1>But it's like a bunch a bunch of like small

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<v Speaker 1>yellow flowers to get there, unlike a single stalk.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, I thought that might have been a misprint pansy,

0:12:04.480 --> 0:12:07.120
<v Speaker 2>but I literally looked at my computer keyboard and it

0:12:07.160 --> 0:12:09.240
<v Speaker 2>was like, nah, I bet it's that team the peer

0:12:09.240 --> 0:12:09.880
<v Speaker 2>pretty far apart.

0:12:09.960 --> 0:12:12.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I just I didn't know that that flower existed,

0:12:12.400 --> 0:12:13.680
<v Speaker 1>but by goodness it does.

0:12:14.559 --> 0:12:18.600
<v Speaker 2>Also, accepting also mattered. So depending on which hand you

0:12:18.640 --> 0:12:21.800
<v Speaker 2>accepted the flowers with sent a message, which I guess would.

0:12:22.559 --> 0:12:25.560
<v Speaker 2>I mean, if you're handing them in person, you would know,

0:12:25.600 --> 0:12:27.160
<v Speaker 2>but if not, you had to have it relayed back

0:12:27.200 --> 0:12:30.400
<v Speaker 2>to you. Yeah, if you accepted with the right hand,

0:12:30.559 --> 0:12:33.280
<v Speaker 2>it was a yes. The left hand was a no.

0:12:34.080 --> 0:12:36.280
<v Speaker 2>If you held the bouquet upside down after getting it,

0:12:36.320 --> 0:12:40.680
<v Speaker 2>that's rejection. If someone gave you a wisteria, maybe like

0:12:40.800 --> 0:12:44.200
<v Speaker 2>asking for a dance at a dance, you would hold

0:12:44.240 --> 0:12:46.959
<v Speaker 2>it upside down with your left hand if you wanted

0:12:46.960 --> 0:12:48.040
<v Speaker 2>to say no, thank.

0:12:47.920 --> 0:12:51.760
<v Speaker 1>You, right yeah, you were really saying I'm passing with

0:12:51.840 --> 0:12:55.360
<v Speaker 1>that because you're that's a double no, although the person

0:12:55.400 --> 0:12:57.240
<v Speaker 1>giving it could be like, is that a double negative?

0:12:57.360 --> 0:13:01.400
<v Speaker 1>Like a yes? Is it opposite day? So you could also,

0:13:01.480 --> 0:13:04.200
<v Speaker 1>as the receiver, send flowers in return too, like if

0:13:04.240 --> 0:13:06.960
<v Speaker 1>somebody actually sent you flowers or a bouquet with a

0:13:07.040 --> 0:13:09.720
<v Speaker 1>message and didn't physically hand it to you, you could

0:13:09.920 --> 0:13:13.080
<v Speaker 1>reply with flowers yourselves. Carnations came in handy for that.

0:13:14.120 --> 0:13:17.160
<v Speaker 1>If you sent a solid colored carnation, it meant yes.

0:13:17.800 --> 0:13:21.040
<v Speaker 1>A yellow carnation was a big fat no. A striped

0:13:21.080 --> 0:13:23.840
<v Speaker 1>carnation was letting them down a little easier, but it

0:13:23.880 --> 0:13:25.720
<v Speaker 1>was still a no. It said I'm sorry, but I

0:13:25.760 --> 0:13:26.600
<v Speaker 1>can't be with you.

0:13:27.640 --> 0:13:32.000
<v Speaker 2>I wonder which flower meant like, you know, are you down?

0:13:33.640 --> 0:13:36.160
<v Speaker 1>There was something like that out there. I guarantee you

0:13:36.200 --> 0:13:39.600
<v Speaker 1>I don't know which one, Yeah, but there was definitely something.

0:13:39.960 --> 0:13:42.280
<v Speaker 1>And then the last part. I asked you where you

0:13:42.360 --> 0:13:44.480
<v Speaker 1>were wearing your nosegay, and you said in the center

0:13:44.520 --> 0:13:47.400
<v Speaker 1>of your bodice, which meant I just want to be friends.

0:13:47.760 --> 0:13:49.719
<v Speaker 1>But if you had warned over your heart, Chuck, I

0:13:49.760 --> 0:13:51.920
<v Speaker 1>would have known that you were saying, I love you

0:13:52.040 --> 0:13:52.840
<v Speaker 1>right back, buddy.

0:13:53.440 --> 0:13:55.600
<v Speaker 2>Hey, I do love you right back, buddy. Just you know,

0:13:55.760 --> 0:13:56.280
<v Speaker 2>not like that.

0:13:56.400 --> 0:14:02.000
<v Speaker 1>I understand. I took my shot. Yeah, I guess, then,

0:14:02.200 --> 0:14:09.040
<v Speaker 1>Chuck us short stuff is out, I think so. Stuff

0:14:09.040 --> 0:14:11.040
<v Speaker 1>you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio.

0:14:11.559 --> 0:14:14.720
<v Speaker 2>For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

0:14:14.920 --> 0:14:17.840
<v Speaker 2>Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.