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Speaker 1: you in a couple of weeks. Thinking Sideways, I'll broke
Speaker 1: the look at that I don't know stories of things
Speaker 1: we simply don't know the answer to. Hey, guys, welcome
Speaker 1: to another episode of Thinking Sideways the podcast I Am
Speaker 1: Devin this week joined by Joe and Steve. Hey. Surprise, surprise,
Speaker 1: I get a sound effect. Yeah, we're gonna talk about
Speaker 1: and internet mystery, kind of about Facebook, Mr, kind of.
Speaker 1: It's just a weird it's a weird story. Um. And
Speaker 1: it is the story of Karen Catherine Waldegrave. And this
Speaker 1: episode was suggested by James and Ashley in January of
Speaker 1: twenty fifteen, only two plus years ago. Thanks guys, I
Speaker 1: hope you're still alive. Yeah, so you're trying to figure
Speaker 1: out how to explain this is the preface, because this
Speaker 1: is this is it's tough. It's cookie. It's cookie is
Speaker 1: a good word. Kind of creepy too. So we're gonna
Speaker 1: talk about a woman named Karen Catherine Waldegrave, which is
Speaker 1: an Internet mystery. You can hear the question marks and
Speaker 1: my voice. I'm not imitating Steve, but she's not sure
Speaker 1: about the nature of reality is what she's trying to convey.
Speaker 1: If you're going to imitate me, your voice has to
Speaker 1: be much lower than its currently, just so you know,
Speaker 1: not that much lower anyway, it is too Basically karen
Speaker 1: Facebook page maybe is the basis of this mystery here, Okay,
Speaker 1: so here's the deal. In April two, a Facebook profile
Speaker 1: named Karen Catherine Waldegrave von berg Habsburg in parentheses. You
Speaker 1: know how you can put like your maiden name in yea,
Speaker 1: so the Vaughan Burg Hapsburg Habsburg it was in parentheses.
Speaker 1: So this this Facebook profile appeared in April. Posts by
Speaker 1: this user were frequent and prolific. I would say, so,
Speaker 1: and I'm really sorry. I know that we do have
Speaker 1: some listeners who feel like they really need that, like
Speaker 1: and here's the mystery part of the intro. But I can't.
Speaker 1: I can't, I literally can't with the written down properly.
Speaker 1: This is a massive rabbit hole. Yeah, it's a huge
Speaker 1: rabbit The mystery is is that nobody knows who she was,
Speaker 1: where she went, or even if she existed. To begin
Speaker 1: with and what was she doing and what the Yeah,
Speaker 1: so the mystery is the the enigma of Karen Catherine Waldegrave. So,
Speaker 1: and I'm going to go ahead and again do another
Speaker 1: preface here and say that this is, as Steve said,
Speaker 1: a huge, massive rabbit hole, to the point where I
Speaker 1: asked one of our experts to help me with like
Speaker 1: one tiny little aspect, and she kept being like, but
Speaker 1: what about this and what about this? And I was like, really,
Speaker 1: I just need help on this one thing, and and
Speaker 1: like over the span of three days, she finally was like,
Speaker 1: so I'm getting too distracted. I can't help you with that.
Speaker 1: So where we are literally going to do the like
Speaker 1: high level scratch the surface of this case we never
Speaker 1: do that we could have always out of. I mean,
Speaker 1: we probably could do like a four part series on
Speaker 1: this story. There's so much stuff to just kind of
Speaker 1: dig into. We could read every single one of our
Speaker 1: posts word for word. That would actually probably be like
Speaker 1: a year's worth of podcast. I was about to say
Speaker 1: a second podcast. If I highly suggest that you look
Speaker 1: into this case, if if you are at all interested
Speaker 1: in at all. According to Karen's profile, Karen Catherine Waldgrave
Speaker 1: Bonberg Habsburg Habsburg Rights was born in London or Estonia,
Speaker 1: according to one Internet sleuth who provided a date and everything,
Speaker 1: and Karen studied at the University of Toronto in Canada
Speaker 1: and earned a PhD during her time there. According to
Speaker 1: her profile, she's very well traveled. She speaks um a
Speaker 1: ton of different languages, including French, Estonian, Latvian, English, Russian, Gaelic,
Speaker 1: German and Latin though by the way, yeah and Canadian
Speaker 1: a um, even though I will say I took Latin
Speaker 1: in high school. In my Latin teacher always said there's
Speaker 1: no such thing as being fluent in Latin exactly. But
Speaker 1: you know what I love about Facebook profiles, They are
Speaker 1: so easy to just lie on like this is, this
Speaker 1: is this is anisingly huge list. It is, but she
Speaker 1: does use most of those languages at some point, though
Speaker 1: I know Google translates a thing, but I'm just saying,
Speaker 1: at faith value, this is a very well educated woman.
Speaker 1: In n she apparently married a man named Peter Lepeck
Speaker 1: and then they divorced it about ten years later in
Speaker 1: two thousand two. Peter spelled with two ease three ees. Sorry,
Speaker 1: he's a real person with real life, so please don't
Speaker 1: bother him. He has a lot of public social media stuff. Yeah,
Speaker 1: if you like, you know, if you decided to go
Speaker 1: down the rabbit hole, just don't. Don't bother the guy
Speaker 1: with emails or don't do anything. Just don't. He probably
Speaker 1: just doesn't care. Yeah. He has been the CEO of
Speaker 1: a company called Technograph since And by the way, Karen
Speaker 1: Catherine Waldgrave was a matrimonial investor in in that very
Speaker 1: same company. Yeah. I thought she was like the VP
Speaker 1: of something. Yeah, I like. But the way she puts
Speaker 1: it in her in her was a curriculum vita whatever
Speaker 1: you call it, yeah, r CV. Yeah, that which she
Speaker 1: puts a matrimony investor, you know that technograph, which means
Speaker 1: she married a dude that owned the company. She had
Speaker 1: interesting way of referring to a lot of different things. Yea.
Speaker 1: And Technograph isn't any crazy crazy business. It's printing business. Yeah.
Speaker 1: The guy prints on everything. Yeah, but he's been the
Speaker 1: CEO for like twenty it's an established business. Yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: not I'm not knocking it at all. I'm just saying,
Speaker 1: you know the name Technograph. If you don't know what
Speaker 1: it is, you, Oh, I wonder what that what kind
Speaker 1: of texts very high tech, does it's it's printing press. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: that's good. So then in two thousand three, Karen remarried
Speaker 1: to a man named Gordon Findlay or Findlay Findlay, Yeah,
Speaker 1: Findley who he? I think he's like eighty eight years
Speaker 1: old and I think she was like thirty five at
Speaker 1: the time. Um. And there's been some speculation that she
Speaker 1: didn't actually marry him, that they just lived in the
Speaker 1: same condo complex. I heard that too, like maybe they
Speaker 1: just sort of do each other passing on the hallway
Speaker 1: and that was about it. But I don't know, there's
Speaker 1: a picture of them together, so I'm saying just passing
Speaker 1: in the hallway, part actually sitting near each other, Well
Speaker 1: there's I mean, but there's only that one picture that
Speaker 1: exists of them. So people say, what could have been
Speaker 1: like from an h O a meeting or something like yeah, no,
Speaker 1: And this is just like the last episode. You can
Speaker 1: easily draw a whole slew of conclusions from single photographs.
Speaker 1: And although again it's kind of like, I don't know
Speaker 1: why you would lie about that, especially because he's so
Speaker 1: much older than her, But whatever. Karen has as recently
Speaker 1: as February first, two thousand fifteen a Genie account, which
Speaker 1: is a genealogy account. Genie is you know, like like genealogy.
Speaker 1: Not On this account she uses the alias Karen Sophie
Speaker 1: kell wal Degrave von Con So sounds right, and I
Speaker 1: should I should stop here and say Karen the Facebook
Speaker 1: is k A r I N and Karen Sophie is
Speaker 1: c A r I N, just like Saren. But to
Speaker 1: see steven S Yeah, worth, wait what I'm a connection.
Speaker 1: It's the name of something, just not a person. So
Speaker 1: it's worth noting here that she uses the same photo
Speaker 1: of herself on almost all of her accounts, which is
Speaker 1: how people have found all of the like like twenty
Speaker 1: eight or something aliases that she uses on the Internet.
Speaker 1: It's also it's not a very good picture of her.
Speaker 1: She actually looks like she's just back from the taxidermist. Yeah,
Speaker 1: her eyes. There's just something creepy about it, because she
Speaker 1: really does look like she's been killed and stuffed. Yeah,
Speaker 1: she really does. And she's got blonde, like her hair's
Speaker 1: bleached blonde, but she actually has brown hair. Karen waldegraved
Speaker 1: is and it's like this very corporate, it's like the
Speaker 1: nineties like ally McBeal picture, you're that's super weird. And um,
Speaker 1: you know so Google image search and just like image
Speaker 1: search in general is a thing, and that's how a
Speaker 1: lot of people have found a lot of her stuff.
Speaker 1: And she even says in one of her posts on
Speaker 1: Facebook like, hey, I know this is actually a really
Speaker 1: bad picture of me, but it's one I'm using, which
Speaker 1: is weird. That's a super weird. On her Genie account,
Speaker 1: she lists four sons and a daughter all that are
Speaker 1: just named like n Kell whal Degray Van I can't
Speaker 1: say that, can't out. She also claims to have three
Speaker 1: ex husbands, not just two. Oh and also she claims
Speaker 1: to be royalty, but more on that later. Back to Facebook, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: Karen Um also posted photos on Facebook, not just text posts.
Speaker 1: But they're weird little photos. Most of them are severely
Speaker 1: or were severely damaged. Well there's well some of them
Speaker 1: were and some of them weren't. I mean, so that's
Speaker 1: the kind of interesting thing is some of them were
Speaker 1: I think legitimately scanned it. They were on those you guys,
Speaker 1: I'm sure you both remember the old photo album like
Speaker 1: Sticky Back with the cellphone cover and I like I
Speaker 1: have these exact same sheets at my house. That's photo
Speaker 1: albums my grandmother made me, And they're just literally the
Speaker 1: sheets taken out and like put on a scanner and
Speaker 1: scanned fully, and many of those pictures are damaged in there.
Speaker 1: But then there's these other pictures that are from there,
Speaker 1: like of Peter, her ex husband, from the you know,
Speaker 1: nineties to two thousand's, early two thousand's, and they are
Speaker 1: quote unquote damaged in exactly the same way, all of them,
Speaker 1: and pretty much everybody agrees these photos are photoshopped to
Speaker 1: look damaged. So she had a damaged template and she
Speaker 1: would just drop it into the damage. Yeah, Like the
Speaker 1: squiggles are exactly the same, like the quote unquote damage,
Speaker 1: the squiggles across and the that were supposed to look
Speaker 1: like reflections during the scanning process of exactly and in
Speaker 1: the exact same spots on like at least ten pictures
Speaker 1: that I saw, except for that one of them is
Speaker 1: a horizontal picture, not a vertical picture. So it's the
Speaker 1: template she like rotated ninety degrees and put it on there,
Speaker 1: and so that is very weird and super creepy. The
Speaker 1: only time I've seen people do that. There's there's there's
Speaker 1: something I'll bring up later on that same thing. But
Speaker 1: I will say she and it's not like a filter
Speaker 1: or something, because on all of these photos when she
Speaker 1: uploaded them, she she claimed they were damaged. In real life,
Speaker 1: she would refer to the damage on the photos as
Speaker 1: some thing nefarious or otherwise. So it wasn't as though
Speaker 1: she was like, look at this cool filter that I
Speaker 1: put on this thing. It was like, look at these
Speaker 1: damaged photos that people were trying to destroy. Right, Yeah, Okay,
Speaker 1: let's talk about the text. It was mostly text, and
Speaker 1: it was lots of texts. Most of most of the
Speaker 1: mystery around her is in the text. Yeah, it started,
Speaker 1: it started out kind of not so unreasonable, and it
Speaker 1: got a little weird. Yeah. So most of the actual
Speaker 1: wall posts were actually like semi coherent, kind of just
Speaker 1: um seemed a little attention well, no, that like the
Speaker 1: actual preliminary posts looked I mean there were a little
Speaker 1: attention seeking. Like sometimes she would say something like, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm glad to see that Alistair is back. Like that's
Speaker 1: not like it's coherent, it's not, you know, but it's
Speaker 1: a little attention seeking. But whatever. And then on an
Speaker 1: example like that, For instance, I think on that particular post, um,
Speaker 1: there's like two hundred and sixty seven comments from her,
Speaker 1: many of which are like max out whatever the character
Speaker 1: limit is on comments, and many of them posted literally
Speaker 1: simultaneously or if not simultaneously, like within minutes of each other.
Speaker 1: And she would go on these commenting sprees for like
Speaker 1: twelve hours at a time. Go ahead that The thing
Speaker 1: I was wondering about that is like, I mean, I know,
Speaker 1: now you can you can cue up posts to be
Speaker 1: posted later. I don't think you were able to do that.
Speaker 1: Oh you can't do that, really, do you know? Steve, uh,
Speaker 1: you are correct Jo that you can queue up post,
Speaker 1: but actually can you do that on a personal Facebook?
Speaker 1: I've never seen an option to do that on my
Speaker 1: personal Facebook, only on the like, you know, I don't
Speaker 1: know if you can do that. But even though I mean,
Speaker 1: but to Joe's question, yeah, I do not think that
Speaker 1: that at that time or today is a built in functionality.
Speaker 1: But that does not mean that someone could not write
Speaker 1: a script to do it for them. That's true, right.
Speaker 1: It also doesn't mean that somebody couldn't, um just like
Speaker 1: document and then cut. And I used to do that
Speaker 1: on a personal Twitter. Sometimes if I like had a
Speaker 1: lot of things I wanted to say on Twitter, sometimes
Speaker 1: I would just like right, I mean, because it's a
Speaker 1: hundred and forty characters or something like that. So on Twitter,
Speaker 1: I like felt like if I was responding to someone
Speaker 1: and I had like a couple of tweets worth of stuff,
Speaker 1: I would just write it out and then cut and paste. Um.
Speaker 1: And so that's not to say that that's not what
Speaker 1: was happening here, but they're so huge, they're huge, And
Speaker 1: let's just like, here's an I have an example in
Speaker 1: here that I know at least one of you has
Speaker 1: actually reviewed because some one of you made a comment
Speaker 1: on it. Yeah, I think it was him. It was him,
Speaker 1: but I thought the same thing. So in this initial well,
Speaker 1: and I am sorry I didn't like explain this in
Speaker 1: my script because I just figured you guys would know
Speaker 1: that I also knew this information. But you're girl, you
Speaker 1: actually kind of went into it later on. I do. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So here's a here's just an example of a post,
Speaker 1: and this is kind of how they would go. She
Speaker 1: the initial post on her wall, like I said, semi coherent,
Speaker 1: not totally coherent, but semi coherent, where She says, quote
Speaker 1: looking for Waldo t E, Thomas Edward Lawrence, Peter O'Toole,
Speaker 1: or Canada's Prime Minister Stephen Harper. This is a Pengue
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty two reprint of the original nineteen six text,
Speaker 1: first published in nineteen thirty five by Jonathan Cape. And
Speaker 1: I mean, there's this, there's connections to be made between
Speaker 1: all of those things we think and mean, certainly Peter
Speaker 1: O'Toole and Lawrence Edward Lawrence. But yeah, but Waldo, I'm
Speaker 1: not so sure of. Stephen Harper, I'm not so sure of.
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, I'm not sure either. But well, we're about
Speaker 1: to go into this. So so anyways, that would be
Speaker 1: the post, and then there would be a comment something
Speaker 1: like this, I'm not going to read the whole thing.
Speaker 1: And when you say comment, would you are you talking
Speaker 1: about one of them or you talking about the thread?
Speaker 1: Because it's a threat of comments. Well, this is like
Speaker 1: one of the many one comment in the threat. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I'll go ahead and say that, Um, there were
Speaker 1: two comments that we're going to talk about in a second,
Speaker 1: in between that post and this comment. But then she
Speaker 1: would say, surprisingly, you will not find the recipe in
Speaker 1: Myra Waldo's Pan American Complete Round the World Cookbook, which
Speaker 1: was steadily reprinted twice a year between nineteen fifty four
Speaker 1: and nineteen sixty two. She thanks the following four quote
Speaker 1: supplying information for this book unquote, as editor in chief
Speaker 1: the Voice of America Ready Radio Free Europe. Mr Chai
Speaker 1: is of the Common Council of the American Unity, with
Speaker 1: the various foreign constulates and of course most particularly the
Speaker 1: Pan American World Airways Agent all over the world in
Speaker 1: eighty one countries, with a very special things due to
Speaker 1: Harold Laird and Gerald Whittled of Pan American. Man, what
Speaker 1: does that mean? I wonder? And then there's like one, two, three,
Speaker 1: four or five six seven more paragraphs about this and
Speaker 1: and by the way, just so everybody knows, a lot
Speaker 1: of these are so big we can't sit here and
Speaker 1: send no And it's also nonsensical to we want up
Speaker 1: boring into tears. But I do, like she says, I
Speaker 1: guess Harold Laird and Gerald Whittled of Pan American were
Speaker 1: just too busy with other things between nineteen fifty four
Speaker 1: and nineteen sixty two to let her know how to
Speaker 1: mix one cup of dice clery one cup of diced apples,
Speaker 1: half a cup of finely chopped walnuts, and three quarters
Speaker 1: of a cup mannaise to help present the United States
Speaker 1: calm libros. So she's there. I shouldn't be analyzing this already,
Speaker 1: but that I mean, she's just giving the recipe for
Speaker 1: Waldorf salad, right, which is she referred to in a second? Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm just getting too excited. I'm sorry. Uh So it
Speaker 1: shows that one in particular because it gives a really
Speaker 1: interesting idea of what's going on here. These posts appear
Speaker 1: to be incoherent at first, right, I mean we would
Speaker 1: say this that that a couple of paragraphs of many
Speaker 1: more than eight paragraphs, it's just gibberish. Well, what struck
Speaker 1: me is it wasn't necessary, didn't It didn't strike me
Speaker 1: as random gibberish so much as it looked like one
Speaker 1: half of a conversation. It often seemed like what she
Speaker 1: would She'd be posting something and it was like she
Speaker 1: was replying to somebody else in her original posts. It's
Speaker 1: almost like somebody said something, she's saying something back and
Speaker 1: got deleted and we didn't see the deleted comment. Or yeah,
Speaker 1: that's almost the way it feels never minding the posting timeline. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so let's and I want to a little bit break
Speaker 1: these down because you're in the original wall post um.
Speaker 1: What she was referring to was a book called The
Speaker 1: Seven Pillars of Wisdom by T. E. Lawrence, which is
Speaker 1: the autobiographical account of Lawrence of Laurd's of Arabia fame.
Speaker 1: Which is why Peter A. Tool came in because he
Speaker 1: played Lawrence of Arabia in the movie adaptation, which started
Speaker 1: the whole It was a big component in the quicksand
Speaker 1: will Always Get You theory. Oh is that where that
Speaker 1: came from? That's the quicksand actually appeared in the movies
Speaker 1: before we did. But it's just one more that perpetuated
Speaker 1: the myth that, yeah, Quicksand so she had that original post,
Speaker 1: and then she posted these two quick short ones like
Speaker 1: in rapid succession, and then the eight paragraph long one
Speaker 1: she and then she said looking for a Waldorf a
Speaker 1: good salad, but not a boutique school. And then and
Speaker 1: you'll Brenner not exactly Anne Jurison, And then she launches
Speaker 1: into that paragraph rant that I read a little bit of.
Speaker 1: So there she refers to a wald Worf salad right,
Speaker 1: and then like four paragraphs later gives the recipe for
Speaker 1: a wald Worf salad in the context of this larger rand.
Speaker 1: And so I don't think they're actually gibberish. No, it's
Speaker 1: not random words. It's not just random words. No, I
Speaker 1: mean there there is fought behind it. I will agree,
Speaker 1: And there is structure and self reference in terms of
Speaker 1: previous things that are written. So it is not complete
Speaker 1: and utter gibberish. But exactly I don't know that it
Speaker 1: is coherent? Did uh? I didn't notice that? He didn't
Speaker 1: any of her comments get any likes? No? Really, well,
Speaker 1: they probably all had likes within one second of each other.
Speaker 1: Could that? Actually looking at the picture of the screen capture,
Speaker 1: have I don't see the like button? So maybe that
Speaker 1: wasn't a thing then. I don't think you could. I
Speaker 1: think that was like a newer thing it was or
Speaker 1: something like that. So these these kids today just don't
Speaker 1: know how good they got it. Now you think I
Speaker 1: was always possible to just like people on Facebook, always
Speaker 1: possible to react. You don't even like anymore. You can
Speaker 1: you have like five options to react to something. It's
Speaker 1: you can't react to a comment though that you can
Speaker 1: like a comment though, but you can't react to a comment. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's true. I know you're listening. I know Zack is listening.
Speaker 1: I want to know many do us a solid advertising
Speaker 1: on the show. Yeah, but so for reference, the thing
Speaker 1: is is that there, it's all connected, it's semi coherent.
Speaker 1: But something a lot of people have talked about is
Speaker 1: this thing that I know you guys know what this
Speaker 1: is because we've talked about it on the show before.
Speaker 1: If you've listened to past episodes, yeah, if you've listened
Speaker 1: to my wildly popular Internet mystery episodes, uh, you will
Speaker 1: know of Markov chain and you may know that, um,
Speaker 1: you know, Markov chains are really it's relatively easy to
Speaker 1: write a program to create a Markov chain. And on Reddit,
Speaker 1: I am just like stealing this from somebody on Reddit
Speaker 1: because I couldn't find a generator as good as this.
Speaker 1: So I'm not sure, but tell people, Okay. So Markov
Speaker 1: chain is um hm. Basically it takes some concepts, like
Speaker 1: you just feed it some text to begin with, and
Speaker 1: it will create these like giant chains of text by association.
Speaker 1: It's basically AI basically what it is. It is. It
Speaker 1: is um but it basically just reference. It just finds
Speaker 1: references for for other stuff and then just plugs words
Speaker 1: in that it thinks are going to make a coherent something.
Speaker 1: But it's a I so it's dumb. I don't think
Speaker 1: it's Yeah, I don't think it's quite A doesn't look
Speaker 1: that readable, though it's readable enough you could actually generate
Speaker 1: like college term papers. I'm sure with no trouble at all. Well,
Speaker 1: you can generate some some stuff. So what I'm what
Speaker 1: I'm borrowing here from this Reddit user is um. This
Speaker 1: user said that they found a generator or maybe they
Speaker 1: had one of their own, I don't know. Um, they
Speaker 1: never linked it or anything like that, despite like five
Speaker 1: people being like, hey, can you bank me to that generator? Um,
Speaker 1: they said that they input conspiracy, government, and privacy into
Speaker 1: a Markov chain generator and came up with this. And
Speaker 1: it's like three paragraphs long. So I'm not going to
Speaker 1: read all of it, but I am going to have
Speaker 1: Joe read the first paragraph. Okay, all right, this is
Speaker 1: William Shatner reading, not just kidding. Privacy is not and
Speaker 1: likely never will be, of streperous human kind. Will always
Speaker 1: validate government, whether by agronomists or of the account authorities,
Speaker 1: which intercedes lie in the study of reality as well
Speaker 1: as a study of philosophy. Hence, authorities might engender mournful
Speaker 1: adjurations for incarceration, which foretel periodicity. It's by the way,
Speaker 1: all the mistakes in there were in the original texts
Speaker 1: written was written. Sorry, So I mean like that is
Speaker 1: not honest Lee, not that much less coherent than some
Speaker 1: of the posts that we've seen from the Karen user
Speaker 1: on Facebook. So I don't know. And then the other
Speaker 1: thing I'm gonna bring up, and then we're gonna get
Speaker 1: into theories because most of this is just like, let's
Speaker 1: let's talk about this is um. There was another really
Speaker 1: interesting analysis done by a on a YouTube video called
Speaker 1: seriously Strange, and I I believe she took this analysis
Speaker 1: from someone else that she said she went back to
Speaker 1: credit and she couldn't find the original source. We know
Speaker 1: exactly what it's like. It's really hard sometimes and so
Speaker 1: I don't have the original credit for this. I just
Speaker 1: have that YouTube video credit for this. But basically, here's
Speaker 1: the just of it. Karen's word associations are often based
Speaker 1: on puns or other strong links. So like there's one
Speaker 1: post where she's railing against Annalie Peebo, who's an opera
Speaker 1: singer from her home country maybe of Estonia. Peebo is
Speaker 1: married to a death core singer named rale Nartists with
Speaker 1: two as n Artists. Yeah, an artists, Actually not, it's not.
Speaker 1: And by the way, for our listeners who don't know
Speaker 1: what is a death course singer, it's a guy who
Speaker 1: sounds like this la la actually yes, yeah, is like
Speaker 1: is like really really heavy battle Okay, he's trying to
Speaker 1: He's trying to sound kind of like a demon or
Speaker 1: something like that. From the people that I know who
Speaker 1: are into death core, it's more about the musicality of
Speaker 1: the singer than it is the lyrics. But anyway, so Peebo,
Speaker 1: who you know Karen's railing against um is married to
Speaker 1: this death core singer role Nartists two as yea, who
Speaker 1: she then merges into raul Nartists with one A who's
Speaker 1: the professor of law at the the University of Taru
Speaker 1: and Estonia. Um. Though she doesn't know what death core is,
Speaker 1: she admits outright. Karen humorously puns death Corp off of
Speaker 1: death Core like Marine Corps, and then translates that to
Speaker 1: team taught, which is the third Rich too DT. Yeah,
Speaker 1: do you say that someplace to some other way. Um, yeah,
Speaker 1: so it's that's referring to the third Reich and then
Speaker 1: team taught, like you're teaching something, which she then associates
Speaker 1: with a peer at the University of Toronto UM in
Speaker 1: the history department that she apparently had a huge, huge
Speaker 1: rivalry with, and then she refers to the team teacher.
Speaker 1: So there's like sophisticated wordplay happening throughout this. Well, there's
Speaker 1: jumps of logic, but it's more sophisticated than any chain generator.
Speaker 1: I think in this world, that's very sophisticated association that
Speaker 1: as far as I'm concerned, and I see markof later on,
Speaker 1: so I'm not gonna say anything about it for now. Well,
Speaker 1: it just takes away from the Markov theory. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: that's kind of the overview. Brief, like very brief overview.
Speaker 1: You could spend literal weeks reading these posts. Um. This
Speaker 1: Facebook profile was deleted in about April of two thousand eleven,
Speaker 1: so it doesn't exist anymore. I haven't been successful in
Speaker 1: getting the way back machine to work, but sometimes other
Speaker 1: people are successful with getting the way back machine to
Speaker 1: work on things that I can't because the way back
Speaker 1: machine is a fickle god. It totally is. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I would think that did people not discover this until long,
Speaker 1: long after the fact that she had come and gone?
Speaker 1: Would think somebody with have archived everything? So did they did?
Speaker 1: But they're in a really weird format. I've seen some
Speaker 1: of those, whether they all the formica has gone and
Speaker 1: it's nothing but texts. There's a live or an all
Speaker 1: and a blog spot or something that did this, but
Speaker 1: they are very hard to navigate, figuring out what is
Speaker 1: a reply and what's a wall post, and what is
Speaker 1: referring to a picture and what might be linked to
Speaker 1: something because there's no category, subcategory, sub subcategor like you
Speaker 1: know when you know when your Facebook loads and your
Speaker 1: internet connection is really slow, and it does. It's not
Speaker 1: in HTML any It's just like it doesn't have its
Speaker 1: CSS connected to it, right, it doesn't have its statu
Speaker 1: It's literally just pure text. That's what these look like.
Speaker 1: It's hard. It's really hard to navi it. We will
Speaker 1: post one link to one of these two things, um,
Speaker 1: but that does exist. But what happened is people became
Speaker 1: aware of this user profile in early two thousand eleven,
Speaker 1: and then people started kind of becoming active with this,
Speaker 1: and and again we'll kind of talk about this a
Speaker 1: little bit in the theories, um, but that it was
Speaker 1: pretty much when people started talking about the profile that
Speaker 1: it was removed. So I keep seeing I've seen a
Speaker 1: lot of the writing and you will probably know this
Speaker 1: better than I. Devon it's referred to as forward slash X.
Speaker 1: Is that a subreddit or was that a four chance group? Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's um which was it? I wasn't sure. It's a chance,
Speaker 1: it's a chance, it's one of the chance, it's grouping, Okay,
Speaker 1: because apparently one of the X in the chance went
Speaker 1: Gaulano crazy over this and started accurate getting giving her
Speaker 1: a lot of attention accurate which seems to have been
Speaker 1: a problem. I mean to the to like a stalking level,
Speaker 1: like to a really intrusive, very scary level, And I
Speaker 1: can it doesn't surprise me that just that this profile
Speaker 1: was deleted, like under any of these theories, right, and
Speaker 1: any of these theories, if that amount of attention from
Speaker 1: a chan was being directed at it, you would get
Speaker 1: rid of it. So all of that hadn't been said
Speaker 1: We're going to talk about theories in a minute, but
Speaker 1: first let's take a break. Yeah, Sal had one goal
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Speaker 1: he needed all the strength he could muster to make
Speaker 1: it upstream. It was all going along swimmingly until he
Speaker 1: decided to treat himself to leisurely swim along the shore.
Speaker 1: That's what derailed him. Everyone out of the water have
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Speaker 1: stand upright. Once he saw this, Sal knew he had
Speaker 1: to get some for himself. Sadly, for Sal, nobody makes
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Speaker 1: And remember they come in quite a few colors, and
Speaker 1: I'd recommend the salmon. We're back. How you guys feeling
Speaker 1: about those posts? Read them all? Okay? Oh yeah no,
Speaker 1: that was that was That was great reading. Pulled up
Speaker 1: my pipe, got in the wingback chair front of the fireplace.
Speaker 1: It was good. It was good reading. It was a
Speaker 1: good cold, windy stormy night. Read so uh. In typical
Speaker 1: Devon fashion, we have two main theories and solved the
Speaker 1: theories um circus. So the two top theories, like the
Speaker 1: two high level theories are either um this is a
Speaker 1: real person or this is a fake person. So first
Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about if this is a fake person.
Speaker 1: I totally can I think it's entirely possible. And this
Speaker 1: is a part of where the Markov chain theory comes in. Literally,
Speaker 1: somebody's just like plugging in some stuff to Markov chain
Speaker 1: whatever generator generator, Yeah, thank you, and uh, just posting
Speaker 1: whatever it spits out, or even that they have, you know,
Speaker 1: built a little put a bit of script that has
Speaker 1: put a Markov chain generator in charge of a Facebook account.
Speaker 1: One of the problems that I would have with that
Speaker 1: theory would be the number of other social media or
Speaker 1: otherwise accounts that Karen has, because she has been at
Speaker 1: some point active in on almost every form of social
Speaker 1: media as well as most genealogy sites as well as
Speaker 1: UM the Chance and maybe read it and also um
Speaker 1: linked in and uh and and and it's posting on
Speaker 1: this I think currently maybe even posting on this like
Speaker 1: subscript thing. I'll see if I can. I don't remember
Speaker 1: what it's called, but it's something that I ran into
Speaker 1: in my research, but she actually had a read it
Speaker 1: log in. I don't know. I can't confirm since read
Speaker 1: it is such an enigma. There are posts that look
Speaker 1: a whole lot like Karen style posting. Okay, so so
Speaker 1: there's yeah, that's that's a dangerous I have no ideas,
Speaker 1: I mean, because it's totally anonymous. Right. The way that
Speaker 1: people tracked most of these is because she uses that
Speaker 1: same dang picture in everything. So they just did a
Speaker 1: reverse image search on that picture and suddenly all of
Speaker 1: these accounts were popping up. And then you would you
Speaker 1: get in there and you're like, oh, yeah, this is
Speaker 1: the same person. So for people who don't know reverse
Speaker 1: image search is I save the photo as Karen headshot
Speaker 1: wand dot jpeg and uploaded everywhere and then when somebody
Speaker 1: pulls it from another website. That's one of the main
Speaker 1: tools that used to to reverse search it. Well, it
Speaker 1: doesn't mean things that are involved, but it doesn't have
Speaker 1: to be the same name, right. But I'm saying, well,
Speaker 1: so basically I'm giving the simplest version because not everybody
Speaker 1: understands how reverse image search works. Right. Basically, what you
Speaker 1: would do if you if you saw an image and
Speaker 1: you wanted to reverse image search it, you would go
Speaker 1: to Google image search and it would say upload picture
Speaker 1: from U R L and you would say, yep, you
Speaker 1: would put the U r L that that pictures in
Speaker 1: and it would search for all images that even like
Speaker 1: remotely resemble that. Well, today, that is how it works.
Speaker 1: Back then, it was a lot of file naming because
Speaker 1: I used to do a lot of image searching. That way,
Speaker 1: when I had put up what was I would consider
Speaker 1: protected content, And that was a way that you could
Speaker 1: find that people were ripping it because people weren't smart
Speaker 1: enough to at least change the file name a little
Speaker 1: bit so you could find it. But the other thing
Speaker 1: I want to I want to real quick touch on,
Speaker 1: is the whole Markov thing. Yeah, there's a big problem
Speaker 1: with this being a Markov changed absolutely. That is that
Speaker 1: a Markov chain is not self referential. It doesn't refer
Speaker 1: to itself in a prior post. Yeah, it also doesn't
Speaker 1: um for instance, um in that post that we were
Speaker 1: talking about where she's like talking about people she knows
Speaker 1: or went to school with. It's not going to be
Speaker 1: that smart. It's not going to be able to pull
Speaker 1: and maybe that's something that you fed it, but even then,
Speaker 1: like it's just too it's too complex and smart for
Speaker 1: a Markov chain. I believe I think you're right, But
Speaker 1: that doesn't mean that Karen is non alias. So it
Speaker 1: also doesn't mean that she isn't a bot of some kind, right,
Speaker 1: so um Quickly, one of the things that feeds the
Speaker 1: theory of like Karen being fake is UM. So I said,
Speaker 1: I had an expert help us, and she kept getting sidetracked.
Speaker 1: And her name is Christina, and she's also happens to
Speaker 1: be one of our Facebook mods and like overall super fans.
Speaker 1: So thank you for everything, yeah, all the things you do,
Speaker 1: So thank you for all of all of the things,
Speaker 1: literally all of the things. Um. But she as a
Speaker 1: hobbyist genealogist, and so she has all of the like
Speaker 1: super pro accounts and all that stuff. So she helped
Speaker 1: me kind of dig through this and on Karen's accounts,
Speaker 1: on her ancestry accounts and her genie account. She comes
Speaker 1: from a long line of Nazis, um, and she claims,
Speaker 1: I mean like high level Nazis I know, um. But
Speaker 1: she she does say that these members, these Nazi members
Speaker 1: of her family are being unfairly persecuted or otherwise. Um.
Speaker 1: She does also claim to be related at one point
Speaker 1: or another to pretty much every royal in Europe that's
Speaker 1: ever ever existed, and the lineage is just like a mess,
Speaker 1: but one of the really interesting things admittedly European lineage
Speaker 1: in generally, but this is like no, no, no, there's
Speaker 1: no way that you related to all of these people.
Speaker 1: But I will say that her I think it's her
Speaker 1: great grandmother. I think that she claims her great grandmother
Speaker 1: is a woman by the name of Um Karen Vaughan,
Speaker 1: counts Conso, who was also known as Karen Um. Can
Speaker 1: you pronounce these for me, Joe, because Axcellina actually now grewing.
Speaker 1: Who was who was the wife of herman who you
Speaker 1: may recognize that name. I don't know how many name
Speaker 1: you are familiar. He was the leader of the German
Speaker 1: Nazi Party and the founder of the Gestapoum. And this
Speaker 1: is a fact that Karen is proud of. Well, okay,
Speaker 1: I shouldn't say she's she's not shroud of the but
Speaker 1: she talks a lot about being related to these people Um.
Speaker 1: And so that kind of lends itself to a theory
Speaker 1: of this person being like even a troll or just
Speaker 1: overall being fake because of like it's it's the same name,
Speaker 1: like she says, it's the same name that she has,
Speaker 1: and and she says she's related to a lot of
Speaker 1: different people and it'd be really easy to just like
Speaker 1: pull a bunch of names out of a hat. So
Speaker 1: there are a couple theories, Um. One is that it
Speaker 1: would be a troll. One is that maybe this Facebook
Speaker 1: is actually acting as a number station, and then none.
Speaker 1: Other is obviously that this is just a very confused
Speaker 1: reincarnation of Karen. I'm sorry, I'm Karen is like come
Speaker 1: back to hot Facebook. She's actually dead, Ye, Karen von Counts,
Speaker 1: the wife of herman. Yeah, I can't say German names.
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry. That's a joke. I'm sorry, I should
Speaker 1: clarify that's a joke. Um, but this could be a
Speaker 1: troll account. I just I'm going to dismiss out of
Speaker 1: hand that it's a troll account because it didn't. It didn't.
Speaker 1: And I don't know why you would have as many
Speaker 1: counts as this person does, and also why there would
Speaker 1: be so many like genealogy accounts, and also why you
Speaker 1: would so many different aliases. And also the story is
Speaker 1: the same across the board. It's a crazy story that
Speaker 1: she tells, but her story is the same across the board,
Speaker 1: and I just don't know. And I know Steve is
Speaker 1: about to say to me, well, trolls don't always have
Speaker 1: a reason, dude, but it wasn't actually going to say that.
Speaker 1: But I just think I don't think it's a troll. Well,
Speaker 1: if it's a troll, it's a very disorganized troll, which
Speaker 1: is why yes, which is that's a better way to
Speaker 1: say it, thank you, Joe. Because of the fact that
Speaker 1: the accounts are under different names. I mean, it's they're
Speaker 1: very And also, if you are a troll, you don't
Speaker 1: as soon as you are gaining interest in your troll,
Speaker 1: you don't delete the troll. But but not every troll
Speaker 1: is what we think of as a troll who is
Speaker 1: wanting to flame people in start of war. They just
Speaker 1: want to They just want to muck with people a
Speaker 1: little bit. Somebody wants to. Actually a very successful troll
Speaker 1: in terms of getting people interested in that even yeah,
Speaker 1: this may be a super successful Actually you're talking about
Speaker 1: it like a bunch of bozos. The only thing I
Speaker 1: will say is, um, if I think if it were
Speaker 1: a troll account, it would have interacted with other social
Speaker 1: media accounts, and there's no instance except for Genie on Genie.
Speaker 1: She posts on Jack the Spineberg's account a lot, who
Speaker 1: she says is her father. My my, My difficulty with
Speaker 1: the troll is if if it's a troll, to me,
Speaker 1: it's a very low level, poorly organized troll, and yet
Speaker 1: to be able to do some of the things that
Speaker 1: happened in the Facebook account takes a level of sophistication
Speaker 1: that those two don't align to be able to write
Speaker 1: a script. Okay, I'm gonna say the posts were done
Speaker 1: by a script. I'm just going to make that presumption
Speaker 1: for my example. Okay, it takes a certain level of
Speaker 1: understanding and sophistication to be able to do that, and
Speaker 1: yet you can't keep your account straight and you're you're
Speaker 1: constantly making things and mixing things like there's there. It's
Speaker 1: it's very I mean, I guess to to elaborate on that,
Speaker 1: to take it out of the troll theory, it could
Speaker 1: have been like, hey, here's our really early exploration into AI, right,
Speaker 1: we created an artificial intelligence that has this Facebook account.
Speaker 1: But again, I think somebody would have said, yeah, that
Speaker 1: was us, like that was our that was our computer
Speaker 1: robot learning. Yes, maybe, but unless that company tanked I
Speaker 1: mean even then when when when the Karen's account was
Speaker 1: in it was just for a year. I think I
Speaker 1: don't think so anyway, I the next after there's maybe UM.
Speaker 1: The next theory for fake is that it would be
Speaker 1: a number station. So can you guys know what a
Speaker 1: number station is. It's been a while since we covered
Speaker 1: number stations, so I'll just reiterate for maybe new listeners.
Speaker 1: I don't know, are we getting new listeners? Who knows
Speaker 1: we are? So number stations are basically like UM in
Speaker 1: its most simple term, it's a station that it's like
Speaker 1: a radio station that is either constantly broadcasting something or
Speaker 1: maybe not constantly broadcasting something, but that the pieces of
Speaker 1: code would be broadcast over that. So that like if
Speaker 1: I were a spy for the US for instance, right,
Speaker 1: radio waves can travel around pretty much around the world
Speaker 1: depending on time of day alignment blah blah. So I
Speaker 1: could be in like Russia and I need I need
Speaker 1: the US needs to get to me to give me instructions.
Speaker 1: And this is like pre cell phone, pre internet blah blah.
Speaker 1: So they have this one radio station that's broadcasting maybe
Speaker 1: white noise the entire time, and then um they you know,
Speaker 1: you know, okay, well at six pm every night, I
Speaker 1: have to tune into this radio station. All we have
Speaker 1: to do is have your radio and then it broadcasts
Speaker 1: a coded message and you write down the coded message,
Speaker 1: and then it's done. It goes back to white noise.
Speaker 1: And then you decide for the message because you have
Speaker 1: the key. Because you have the key that's predetermined, and
Speaker 1: then you have your message. You have you in the
Speaker 1: simplest form, that's abroad. That's a number station. So this
Speaker 1: could be a kind of Internet number station that you
Speaker 1: know somebody you. Facebook is pretty easy to access. You know,
Speaker 1: you go to an internet cafe, Facebook is gonna be available.
Speaker 1: And it also doesn't look suspicious for you to be
Speaker 1: looking at Facebook. You look up this profile, you say, okay,
Speaker 1: here's today's thing. You print out the pages. This is
Speaker 1: much like what we talked about in cryptos, where you
Speaker 1: could literally copy and paste the text and format it
Speaker 1: according to your style when nobody else would get it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and then print off your pages for ten cents of
Speaker 1: pop or whatever, take them with you, burn them when
Speaker 1: you're done, and you know, nobody's the wiser. It would
Speaker 1: also explain why it went dark when it started to
Speaker 1: gain popularity that does. Yeah, yeah, the only thing about
Speaker 1: this and I was thinking that too, And there's there's
Speaker 1: lots of ways to send signals, like for example, there
Speaker 1: was no code. There might not have been any actual
Speaker 1: encrypted code in any of it. But and again I'm
Speaker 1: not so sure about this because it still didn't explain
Speaker 1: like the one post that had two hundred and sixties
Speaker 1: seven reply, it wasn't just one post, yeah, but that
Speaker 1: was frequent. Yeah, but like that. But but still it
Speaker 1: could be like a thing where like say, for example,
Speaker 1: you're a spy and I and I occasionally leave stuff
Speaker 1: in a dead drop for you information, and you know this.
Speaker 1: You're the only way you know this to go check
Speaker 1: the dead drop as you drive past my house and
Speaker 1: I put my flower pot out of my porch. When
Speaker 1: you see it out there, you know it's time to
Speaker 1: go check the dead drop. That the flowers in that
Speaker 1: I've been dead for three years, I said, flower pot,
Speaker 1: it's so flower Yeah, And it could be the same thing.
Speaker 1: It could It could just be some spy just like
Speaker 1: you know, checks check your page as well. If I
Speaker 1: published something really long and tedious and stupid, that's not
Speaker 1: say three lines, but say you know, two lines. But
Speaker 1: even check the dead drop. I mean maybe yeah, maybe
Speaker 1: it's that, or even it's that is the simplest flag
Speaker 1: in the world. It is the world. But it could
Speaker 1: also be even something is like um uh, you know
Speaker 1: the every fourth post is the coded message, or ever
Speaker 1: you know, whatever your number is for the day, or
Speaker 1: just every fourth comment is you know, the next line
Speaker 1: the first line is part of the code. What I mean,
Speaker 1: it could could be something super sophisticated like that. It's
Speaker 1: actually pretty simple or again I mean yeah simple just yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I know, I get where you're headed with that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's just it just seems like it's still not quite
Speaker 1: doesn't doesn't quite work because of all the loony behavior.
Speaker 1: You think you would want to have a sort of
Speaker 1: normal fake Yeah, you would want to have a normal
Speaker 1: Facebook page, I think. And you would also I think
Speaker 1: again the ancestry, the genealogy accounts are what kind of
Speaker 1: throw this for a loop unless you create the illusion
Speaker 1: of a of a real person who had some mental
Speaker 1: illness going on to explain the crazy posts on Facebook. Maybe,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think I think we could speculate
Speaker 1: about this for a really long time. I think the
Speaker 1: idea of it being an Internet number station is really interesting,
Speaker 1: But I don't think it's the right answer. I I
Speaker 1: have one thing that is not in your stuff. What
Speaker 1: it could be in the fake heading under the fake
Speaker 1: head this is this is a fake section. Yeah, it
Speaker 1: is entirely possible that somebody else had created a bot
Speaker 1: that was scraping comments or content from another blog or
Speaker 1: set of profiles and storing it and then pouring it
Speaker 1: into a comment thread. So let's just say that it
Speaker 1: goes to a I'm not gonna say, I'm you know,
Speaker 1: the crazy website dot com, and there's all these comments,
Speaker 1: and it goes and it looks for Tom's comment and
Speaker 1: every because calm, they really like what Tom says. He's
Speaker 1: really intriguing and it's fun. So it scrapes every comment
Speaker 1: that Tom makes and then just starts pouring them into
Speaker 1: all of let's say the first week of May's comments
Speaker 1: get poured into one continuous post. Like it could be
Speaker 1: as simple as that. Now, why you would do that?
Speaker 1: I have not the faintest of ideas, but that would
Speaker 1: that would explain it to me it in terms of
Speaker 1: the behavior, because it's something that isn't as one of
Speaker 1: the one of the hard parts about this is that
Speaker 1: things are done so rapidly in such volume, So this
Speaker 1: would be a way to actually take something that's overtime
Speaker 1: and compress it and make it look straight. Well that, um,
Speaker 1: that timing we'll talk about in the real theories. We
Speaker 1: can talk a little bit about one of the other
Speaker 1: things that people think that this might be. So that's
Speaker 1: all I have for fake Joe, did you have any
Speaker 1: additional fake No? I think not. Not now I think not.
Speaker 1: But so you're ready for the next theory, which is real.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, my book is out awesome, I know. So
Speaker 1: there there's good reason to believe that Karen's a real person. Um,
Speaker 1: she may think so, well, No, I do. I think
Speaker 1: Karen's a real person. I think there are more than
Speaker 1: just that one picture of her, and they're her And
Speaker 1: she wears her hair. This is so weird. I'm sorry.
Speaker 1: She wears her She has like dark brown hair, and
Speaker 1: she wears it in like two braids with like a
Speaker 1: hat on, like that's how she wears her hair. Like
Speaker 1: all of the other pictures of her, she looks like that.
Speaker 1: But you can tell it's the same person. She's Um,
Speaker 1: she exists and she's in non photoshop damaged pictures. So
Speaker 1: if she is real, what's going on? So there are
Speaker 1: a couple of things here. One theory is that she's
Speaker 1: a victim of MK Ultra or the CIA or m
Speaker 1: I five and in the many, the many things that
Speaker 1: Karen claims to be connected to the person that she
Speaker 1: does say is her father was the director of m
Speaker 1: I five for a while. And I'm not gonna name names.
Speaker 1: This information on the internet. Um, it's not highly pertinent,
Speaker 1: it's not. It doesn't change any it doesn't because those
Speaker 1: are publicly available names. And I only say that. I
Speaker 1: only say that because sometimes people bristle at us about that.
Speaker 1: But I mean, if you really cared, you would go
Speaker 1: find Yeah, it's easy, it's easy. Yeah, but she does.
Speaker 1: She does so, and she says that, like that's an
Speaker 1: alias for like his given name, which is something Waldgrave,
Speaker 1: which is like anyway, like I said, six degrees of
Speaker 1: separation of Kevin Bacon is what she's going on. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but you know, my my thing about that, right I do.
Speaker 1: The only thing I like about it is because it
Speaker 1: involves Bacon. You know, you're making the same leaps of
Speaker 1: logic as Karen is exactly another thing that I've seen. Uh, sorry,
Speaker 1: do you guys feel like you need to discuss the
Speaker 1: mk ultra at my five CIA thing? She refers to
Speaker 1: it once, But I don't know a lot of accusations
Speaker 1: about in my five in the CIA around. Yeah, Karen's
Speaker 1: not the only person on the internet, I'm going to say,
Speaker 1: But all you have to do is look at our
Speaker 1: group to see a lot of people Karen more in
Speaker 1: my Little Black peopre a little black book that we're
Speaker 1: going to sell when we're done with it. But as
Speaker 1: far as the mk Ultra thing, too, doesn't Karen seems
Speaker 1: to be the Karen's a little young I would agree
Speaker 1: to have been involved with M. I would agree with that. However,
Speaker 1: I would say that I have heard a lot of
Speaker 1: like my mother was experienced experimented on d you know,
Speaker 1: from M. Kiltra when she was she didn't know she
Speaker 1: was pregnant with sort of things. But I don't think
Speaker 1: that this is one of those things. I think if
Speaker 1: she is connected to anything, it would be M I five,
Speaker 1: And I don't think she's connected to him my five.
Speaker 1: I doubt she's fluky, but I mean back in the
Speaker 1: old days, I mean she was not flaky enough to
Speaker 1: be part of them, my five. But these days I
Speaker 1: think that, yeah, she's too flaky. Yeah. I think about
Speaker 1: about the m k ultra thing too, is that if
Speaker 1: it truly existed, they would have had no trouble at all,
Speaker 1: if they were doing truly my control, they would have
Speaker 1: had no trouble at all. Making these people forget everything. Yeah, well, okay,
Speaker 1: so but remember that the best way to hide yourself
Speaker 1: is to to put out disinformation. And what better than
Speaker 1: to release a bunch of your squirrely rejects who spelled
Speaker 1: misinformation while you're doing the real Yeah, plant plants, all
Speaker 1: kinds of false information. Yeah, I don't do that, And yeah,
Speaker 1: I just shoot everybody's credibility all to hell. And then
Speaker 1: next time it comes up, everybody rolls their eyes. And
Speaker 1: the one time is there's a grain of truth, everybody
Speaker 1: associates it with this bag of garbage. So why would
Speaker 1: I even read into it the MK Ultra. Have you
Speaker 1: guys ever heard of the Indian Lake Project? I have
Speaker 1: heard of it. But okay, so there's the Indian Lake Project.
Speaker 1: It's all about MK ultra and mind control and it's
Speaker 1: put together by this guy. John's the guy that went
Speaker 1: out in the woods and found that mysterious. His grandpa
Speaker 1: found a box in the steel box in the woods.
Speaker 1: I thought it was that gave it to him uncle. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but yeah, finds all this stuff that's all associated with
Speaker 1: MK Ultra and all this stuff, and he releases it
Speaker 1: over time. But he does something very similar to Karen.
Speaker 1: If you look at the photos, they have the same age,
Speaker 1: photoshop treatment to them, the same folds, the same wear marks, Like, yeah,
Speaker 1: these are old. These are old photos of people that
Speaker 1: were involved in these experiments long ago, and they're old.
Speaker 1: They're granny, and they're black and white, damaged, but they've
Speaker 1: been photoshopped, like you said, to look antiqued. Yes, and
Speaker 1: then the damage is you see the same vertical from
Speaker 1: left to right on a lot of them. So that's
Speaker 1: why it's weird to me. That's why I sort of
Speaker 1: want to say that she's fake, because I in a
Speaker 1: way I kind of feel like John is fake exactly.
Speaker 1: I supposedly photos of John had been put out there.
Speaker 1: I saw a photo that I couldn't verify it was real,
Speaker 1: So I meant to try to bring this up earlier,
Speaker 1: and then we we blew by it. But it's just
Speaker 1: this mk Ultra thing is just it's too easy to fabricate.
Speaker 1: Speaking of John, that guy John in Indian Lake, I
Speaker 1: think that's just a creative writing project. Either that or
Speaker 1: his uncle was the biggest d bag in the road,
Speaker 1: because his uncle gives him this metal box with all
Speaker 1: this stuff in it relating and and then later you know,
Speaker 1: as he finds out his uncle felt like what was
Speaker 1: in that box had ruined his life. So what's the
Speaker 1: first thing to do when you ruin your life? You
Speaker 1: give the box to your nephew to ruin their life. Yeah,
Speaker 1: of course that makes total sense now, I mean it
Speaker 1: totally to me. It was I creative writing project. Well,
Speaker 1: and and it it I I wouldn't be I wouldn't
Speaker 1: be opposed to that idea. Because it's funny is that
Speaker 1: the blog went for about two or three years and
Speaker 1: then all of a sudden there was the shift of
Speaker 1: here's my Twitter handle, I will be putting all future
Speaker 1: updates on Twitter. Well, and and then it's this is
Speaker 1: my first Twitter post and all future comments are updates
Speaker 1: will be here on Twitter, and that's it. Yeah, this
Speaker 1: is actually an interesting segue to the next theory about
Speaker 1: Karen is real, um, and that is that her posts
Speaker 1: are actually excerpts of of her like novel, Like she's
Speaker 1: writing a book about her life. Don't want to read. Well,
Speaker 1: it would be I mean, it would explain this like
Speaker 1: quote unquote genealogy research. I mean, let's just for one
Speaker 1: second put away are like, let's just suspend our disbelief
Speaker 1: and say maybe, like maybe it turns out she is
Speaker 1: actually related to all of these people. And she actually
Speaker 1: finds out that she's related to all of She's from
Speaker 1: these like crazy lineages that have distilled down and she
Speaker 1: wants to write a book about it, and so she's
Speaker 1: trying to poorly is writing about her life about things
Speaker 1: that she thinks are connected overall. I mean, I don't
Speaker 1: know that there's a great story there. But many people,
Speaker 1: even people I know, have said I'm working on my
Speaker 1: novel and you read a couple of pages of it
Speaker 1: and you're like, well, this is not a crap, Like
Speaker 1: this is really bad. And so there's nothing to say
Speaker 1: that her working on a novel has to mean it's
Speaker 1: good or even he makes any sense, right, It doesn't
Speaker 1: have to be She could think it's like this great
Speaker 1: work of art. I mean, like Kanye West post. Like
Speaker 1: we've talked about his book that he came out with
Speaker 1: where it was like some of the pages were just
Speaker 1: like one letter, like he got this book published and
Speaker 1: it's just like the rantings of a lunatic. And obviously
Speaker 1: Karen read that and thought, hey, if he can do it,
Speaker 1: I can do it. But I mean, I think there's
Speaker 1: no there's nothing that says that books have to be intelligible.
Speaker 1: So there's that theory that right, So that this would
Speaker 1: also explain the rapid succession of posts, is that she
Speaker 1: had written out and then just cut and paste. But
Speaker 1: it's a strange place to keep your to archive your notes.
Speaker 1: I agree. I don't know if it's an archive. Sorry,
Speaker 1: I don't know that it's an archive necessarily as so
Speaker 1: much as like she thinks she's sharing it with the world,
Speaker 1: she's getting publicity. Well, I thought it was more like
Speaker 1: she makes references to things that on the sheet, and people,
Speaker 1: as you know, would understand maybe it's kind of code
Speaker 1: in the sense that makes reference to this and that,
Speaker 1: and it means nothing that you or me, but to
Speaker 1: her in her family, it does mean something. It triggers
Speaker 1: a memory, and so a sentence, a few words, a
Speaker 1: few yeah, tells this whole reminds them of this whole
Speaker 1: what happened in the summer of nine that's going to
Speaker 1: go to my memoirs. Of course, maybe I don't know, yeah,
Speaker 1: but I mean, I guess for me, it's kind of
Speaker 1: like yeah. And then it also explains why the posts
Speaker 1: are kind of organized the way they are, that like
Speaker 1: each set of post and comments would be like a chapter.
Speaker 1: There's sort of self contained. They are in a way
Speaker 1: that they don't bleed from so there's always these She
Speaker 1: very rarely gets stuck on a topic. Well, but what
Speaker 1: I was getting at is there's there's usually a topic
Speaker 1: and then or a main statement and then comments, Right,
Speaker 1: That's what I mean, and like that post, and they
Speaker 1: don't they don't tend to bleed from one to the other.
Speaker 1: So the comment on two the topic of Tuesday and
Speaker 1: all of Tuesday's comments don't then be uh, feed what
Speaker 1: happens on Wednesday's comment or topic and all of its
Speaker 1: comment And the only thing I would say is that, like,
Speaker 1: I don't necessarily know why one would like be posting
Speaker 1: these things for like twelve hours, you know, yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: I mean, it's like listen, we know some good writers
Speaker 1: out there. And you know, if our friend Mark Adams
Speaker 1: was on a bender, and I know you don't do that,
Speaker 1: but if Mark was on a bender and he just
Speaker 1: started writing, well, okay, listen, ye, Mark is a much
Speaker 1: higher caliber than this. But the point is that you
Speaker 1: know somebody who thinks that I can write and they
Speaker 1: just they just start spe And I'm just gonna put
Speaker 1: a name to this real quick, and that's hypergraphia. And
Speaker 1: we're going to talk more about that in a minute,
Speaker 1: but just um, the hypergraphia is basically like a compulsion
Speaker 1: to write, and that seems to be what's going on here,
Speaker 1: and it's one of many mental disorders that are attributed
Speaker 1: to carrot. Yeah, people people do say that she displays hypographia.
Speaker 1: And you had a couple of things that you wanted
Speaker 1: to talk about before we get to my last real theory, Steve, Well,
Speaker 1: the things you want to talk about, Yeah, I know,
Speaker 1: there's things that I want to talk about because because
Speaker 1: I'm just we need to hash this out because I'm
Speaker 1: a bit stumped on them. So she mentions a couple
Speaker 1: of people. She mentions Donald McClean, who was a real
Speaker 1: person though I should stop to say that, regardless of
Speaker 1: her allegations that like people are like using these different aliases,
Speaker 1: almost everybody that she refers to our real people, right,
Speaker 1: But she she makes these comments about him, said, they're
Speaker 1: the same people but there, but he's such a weird throwback.
Speaker 1: He's the one who's a spy. Yeah, he was part
Speaker 1: of their Yeah, and when he didn't he go he
Speaker 1: moved to Russia. He defected and lived there till some
Speaker 1: point in his old age. She also talks about and
Speaker 1: I'm going to butcher the last name, it's Arthur alex
Speaker 1: are sound right, who was an Estonian poet, and like
Speaker 1: her comment, oh, it's good to see that Alex Sar
Speaker 1: is back and yeah, yeah, it's like dude, alexr Has
Speaker 1: been dead for decades. But she, I mean she put
Speaker 1: quotes around that, right, And I think she was again
Speaker 1: making one of those like only the way the way
Speaker 1: that only Karen does making a pun. She she does
Speaker 1: this thing, um where she just like refers to someone
Speaker 1: as someone else or the like the raul raul leap
Speaker 1: that she was making. I mean, like she just kind
Speaker 1: of there's a word for what she was doing. I
Speaker 1: think it's conflicate. Is the word conflicate and conflate me, Yeah,
Speaker 1: conflint conflate. Yeah, I just add an extra syllable in there.
Speaker 1: But she, I mean, she conflated often and did that
Speaker 1: kind of like word play it almost and almost it's
Speaker 1: an association, almost like memory mimnemonics. Yeah, it totally. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a good Yeah, it's a great way, so that
Speaker 1: I mean that. Yeah. So there. There's there's one or
Speaker 1: two other little things that I've seen, which is I
Speaker 1: never saw this anywhere, but I always wondered and you
Speaker 1: hinted at it a little bit earlier, which is get
Speaker 1: the you were talking about when you have a slow
Speaker 1: connection speed and everything loads but it's super slow. So
Speaker 1: I have had websites that have done this to me,
Speaker 1: especially when you're in a crappy computer and it's a
Speaker 1: crappy internet connection. What if she's not making these comments simultaneously,
Speaker 1: but matter of fact, she's in her cabin in the
Speaker 1: woods on some terrible dial up at twelve bot and
Speaker 1: she's making comments, and then five minutes later she's making
Speaker 1: another comment and then making another comment, and her her
Speaker 1: computer is just cashing it all. And then when it
Speaker 1: gets on it just dumps it all. I mean that
Speaker 1: that would create a chain, like not a perfect answer,
Speaker 1: but it suddenly becomes it's a technology problem and not
Speaker 1: she is a complete you know, she's not not as
Speaker 1: a chamber. Well, I mean it would accept for that,
Speaker 1: like the content of those posts is still questionable. You're right,
Speaker 1: But this to me, so I always break these things apart,
Speaker 1: you know. But I guess the thing for me is
Speaker 1: that like that is not like I don't have a
Speaker 1: problem with the fact that they're posted simultaneously. I think
Speaker 1: a lot of people fixate on that issue, like posted.
Speaker 1: I think there's like twenty different totally logical reasons that
Speaker 1: they could be posted simultaneous, and still does this Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it still does not explain the content that's being posted.
Speaker 1: And for me, it's the content of the posts, not
Speaker 1: the But I think you got a little thing. Yeah, No,
Speaker 1: I I broke it apart. I took content and then
Speaker 1: the postings and I separated him. That's why I looked
Speaker 1: at it and said, well, what if this is what's
Speaker 1: going with this? Because I mean it's just like the
Speaker 1: same thing as where we talked about before, or the
Speaker 1: the idea that I proffered, which is somebody was scraping
Speaker 1: it from somewhere else and then pouring it in. Okay,
Speaker 1: there's one. There's somebody else who I found who is
Speaker 1: a lot like Karen though yeah in terms of the posts,
Speaker 1: a lot like Karen post well, but I think could
Speaker 1: be an inspiration for Karen. And that is frances E. Deck.
Speaker 1: And if you don't know who Francis E. Deck is,
Speaker 1: google him his there's a great log of his work
Speaker 1: and it's really the interesting The short version is he
Speaker 1: was a lawyer, I think it was in the nineteen
Speaker 1: forties or fifties. He did some things, he got himself disbarred,
Speaker 1: and he launched a twenty year letter writing campaign, literally
Speaker 1: typewriter writing. If you there's actual scans of his his letters,
Speaker 1: there's some punctuation, there are absolutely no carriage returns. It
Speaker 1: is just a wall of text with actually he's taken
Speaker 1: the typewriters, put the page in it sideways and typed
Speaker 1: on the edge of the borders of the pages. Like
Speaker 1: he just makes these crazy screeds where he and I'm
Speaker 1: not using crazy in the derogatory sense here, but he
Speaker 1: makes these things where he is making outlandish claims and
Speaker 1: like he sounds very racist, but really I think he
Speaker 1: just hated everybody, so he attacks everybody. He attacks everything,
Speaker 1: like nothing is sacred to this guy. And he did
Speaker 1: it for twenty years. So there's a hue mongous record
Speaker 1: of his work. And to a degree, the style of
Speaker 1: Karen's writing it seems very familiar after I read some
Speaker 1: of Deck's work. So that's why I wonder if, yeah,
Speaker 1: maybe Karen's real, but maybe she studied him, or maybe
Speaker 1: somebody else use that as their source and it's a
Speaker 1: person doing this, it's not a bott. Maybe she's maybe
Speaker 1: she's kind yeah, in the same kind of mental space.
Speaker 1: And that actually leads into the final theory, which is
Speaker 1: a big one, and it is that Karen is just um,
Speaker 1: severely mentally ill. A lot of people think that she's schizophrenic.
Speaker 1: There's a video that I well, let's just get through this, right,
Speaker 1: I know. Um, there's a video I found while researching this,
Speaker 1: and it's like called what Schizophrenia Really looks Like and
Speaker 1: it's a man on the street interview with a guy
Speaker 1: who has schizophrenia. And here's a transcript. I'll read, um
Speaker 1: the reporter and then Joe, can you be the guy,
Speaker 1: don't You don't have to read the whole Thing's okay? Yeah, no,
Speaker 1: I mean this guy is like he doesn't like devolve
Speaker 1: into like you know what we would see like a
Speaker 1: Hollywood portrayal of like this person is going crazy. He's delivered.
Speaker 1: He delivers these words very coherently. It's just the content again,
Speaker 1: that's so. So the reporter just says like, um, what's
Speaker 1: your name? And then this man responds my name. Oh,
Speaker 1: I'll me tell you my name. Um. I'm confused because
Speaker 1: you know, we're supposed to believe in the ministry. Right
Speaker 1: So is is is the church and state supposed to
Speaker 1: be separate? I'm confused because I never went to school.
Speaker 1: Right is a is a confused person get a resolution?
Speaker 1: I don't understand. You see when you go like that
Speaker 1: and I'm holding up my hands with my crossed index fingers, right,
Speaker 1: you have a cross two sticks, right. And that's how
Speaker 1: I felt when I was in Waterloo, because when I
Speaker 1: walked in Waterloo and smile to people, they treated me
Speaker 1: like a vampire. They used to cross and they went
Speaker 1: like this by not smiling at me. In Toronto. Oh hi, guys,
Speaker 1: you know me, Steve spirow is easy going. Those who
Speaker 1: know me. I'm a nobody, you understand, and you can't
Speaker 1: kill a person with nobody, So why am I afraid?
Speaker 1: So it goes on a little bit, but you can
Speaker 1: see it's not um particularly coherent, not really, not entirely
Speaker 1: you know, of course, you know, I don't know. I
Speaker 1: mean schizophrenics, you know, they hear voices and stuff like that.
Speaker 1: Maybe it's hard to actually get a coherent thought together
Speaker 1: when you're being bombarded with voices, um And you just
Speaker 1: want to go ahead and say, like, I'm just gonna
Speaker 1: pause right now and say that I do not want
Speaker 1: to get into the game of trying to diagnose a
Speaker 1: mental illness based on like a social media profile. Good point.
Speaker 1: I think that's super dangerous and also I find it
Speaker 1: like kind of personally offensive that people have been doing
Speaker 1: this to the point where like when Karen, when people
Speaker 1: started becoming aware of Karen's profile in like two thousand,
Speaker 1: thousand eleven, people were like calling the cops and like
Speaker 1: reporting her as being like severely mentally ill and trying
Speaker 1: to get her institutionalized. And regardless of what you think
Speaker 1: may have been going on for her, I think I
Speaker 1: just think that that's stepping in where you are not yeah,
Speaker 1: well even remotely allowed to go based on a Facebook
Speaker 1: that's all I think you can go there. I mean,
Speaker 1: as I think it's very reasonable enough as long as
Speaker 1: you're not a professional. If you if you're out there
Speaker 1: as on the internet as a psychiatrist saying my professional
Speaker 1: opinion is this person that's crossing a big line. Well,
Speaker 1: I honestly I just think, like I just think you
Speaker 1: should like you don't know that person. I think I
Speaker 1: think it's being a member of a chan and saying
Speaker 1: this smacks of schizophrenia. So I'm going to author that's absurd,
Speaker 1: because you know what the problem is, and we've come
Speaker 1: across this floor. So I I actually stopped and I
Speaker 1: took the time to look it up to just try
Speaker 1: and see if I could get a grip on schizophrenia.
Speaker 1: And I can't. But you know what made me feel
Speaker 1: better is that even the governing bodies of the mental
Speaker 1: health world can't get a grip on it because between
Speaker 1: the d s M four and the ds M five,
Speaker 1: things have been excluded in, definitions have changed. Like it
Speaker 1: is such a it's it's so evolving, and it's so
Speaker 1: unique to each individual. Yeah, I mean, and I think
Speaker 1: the thing is is, like, so we talked about hypergraphia
Speaker 1: a little bit, and people say, like, that's not that's
Speaker 1: not schizophrenia. They no, they say that it is an
Speaker 1: unusual it doesn't usually present with schizophreni yet. But again,
Speaker 1: like everybody is different, like maybe it does for some people,
Speaker 1: and you can only have one mental affliction at the
Speaker 1: same time. And that guy that you were talking about
Speaker 1: that wrote those yeah, I mean, wasn't he diagnosed schizophrenic?
Speaker 1: He was. They were pretty sure that he was. So,
Speaker 1: I mean, like he displayed this same sort of hypographia tendency,
Speaker 1: but he also was a schizophrenic. I mean again, it's
Speaker 1: like we can't there's no way for us to look
Speaker 1: at these historic posts and say, and nor should we
Speaker 1: be looking at these historic posts and say, like, this
Speaker 1: is the mental illness that this person suffered from. But
Speaker 1: I do think that there's strong evidence to say that
Speaker 1: this person is mentally ill and that we and we
Speaker 1: are we're doing a podcast on it, so we are
Speaker 1: like feeding into this sensationalization of this person's mental illness.
Speaker 1: I mean yeah, but it's not it's not outlandish to
Speaker 1: suppose I mean, because from our point of view, what
Speaker 1: rational person would do something like this? What a waste?
Speaker 1: What a waste of time? But if nothing else, what
Speaker 1: a huge waste of time? Maybe she's been illegal or
Speaker 1: perhaps you know, this whole thing is like like we
Speaker 1: were talking about earlier, just a troll or project or
Speaker 1: a project that that succeeded in creating this big mystery
Speaker 1: that people are still talking about. And so you know,
Speaker 1: we've fallen into the trap and we need to like,
Speaker 1: you know, hit the e race button, talked about something else.
Speaker 1: Kevin's got squinty face. I just think I got I'm
Speaker 1: getting squinty face because I think that like we're doing
Speaker 1: that thing that I said we didn't want to do,
Speaker 1: you know where we're just not because it smells bad
Speaker 1: in here. No, it's fine, Yeah, there's no smelling cat
Speaker 1: thing happening here. Okay, but well you're talking about microphone diagnosis. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think that we, you know, as armchair investigators, cannot know.
Speaker 1: I mean the only thing that I'll say is that
Speaker 1: people say that Karen's UM profile went dark because she
Speaker 1: was institutionalized or she was you know, was in treatment,
Speaker 1: and there there are comments on her profile about isn't
Speaker 1: it like somebody's coming over. She actually goes on like
Speaker 1: a tirade because like because again people were like reporting
Speaker 1: her to the police, and she's just basically is like,
Speaker 1: you guys, this is none of your business, Like, do
Speaker 1: not call the cops on me. I'm not crazy. I'm
Speaker 1: like posting this. It's my own personal thing, like get out,
Speaker 1: Like you guys are awful, like just ignoring, and the
Speaker 1: fastest way to get attention is to say, don't look
Speaker 1: at me. Absolutely it is. Yeah, So I think I
Speaker 1: don't I don't give credit to the fact that I mean,
Speaker 1: her Facebook is the only thing that went dark, like all,
Speaker 1: she has all these other accounts that we can trace
Speaker 1: that didn't disappear in two thousand eleven when her Facebook disappeared.
Speaker 1: So I think I don't really buy into that necessarily,
Speaker 1: but I do. I do think that the theory that
Speaker 1: I am that I land on in this story, which
Speaker 1: makes me uncomfortable that we've done an entire episode on it,
Speaker 1: is that it's just a woman who is like mentally
Speaker 1: ill and this is how it is expressing it, and
Speaker 1: she does not deserve this level of scrutiny. Yeah, it
Speaker 1: probably doesn't want it that bad, And it might be
Speaker 1: that she didn't even delete it, because obviously, if she's
Speaker 1: mentally ill and getting a ton of attention for her writings,
Speaker 1: that's not necessarily a negative thing for her. But her
Speaker 1: family deleted it. Well, but it might be a negative
Speaker 1: thing for her if people are like calling hospitals on her.
Speaker 1: And I remember, have you ever deleted a Facebook account?
Speaker 1: It's not an easy thing to do. Oh yeah, well,
Speaker 1: you you go in and you click the button, and
Speaker 1: then you cannot log into the account. Facebook tells you
Speaker 1: for two weeks. In actuality, Facebook does not want to
Speaker 1: lose so oh, if you hit the log in button
Speaker 1: with that account name for somewhere between six months to
Speaker 1: twelve months, I've found that Puppy is back online and
Speaker 1: it is up and running because I have had family
Speaker 1: members who have messed up and done the multiple profile
Speaker 1: thing without realizing it and Okay, we're gonna turn this
Speaker 1: one off and turn that one off. Just don't log
Speaker 1: into it. And then I come back and I'm like,
Speaker 1: why is what's Oh you logged into it? Why so
Speaker 1: it's it's not It's not an easy thing. So it yes,
Speaker 1: it requires a set of circumstances for the normal person
Speaker 1: or the not completely mentally sound person to be forced
Speaker 1: into an order for that account to not be accidentally reactivated.
Speaker 1: I see, I'll remember that if I ever tried to
Speaker 1: delete Facebook, which I probably will wind up doing one
Speaker 1: of these days, probably probably probably. So yeah, do you
Speaker 1: guys have any more theories? I still I still, while
Speaker 1: the what we've talked about for probably what's been the
Speaker 1: last ten minutes seems like the most probable. I also
Speaker 1: have seen enough art students that I almost wonder if
Speaker 1: this is a crappy crappy art projects or some sort
Speaker 1: of a long con some Reddit types. Yeah, yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, I'll do this, and you do this portion,
Speaker 1: and the one person who does the beginning get does
Speaker 1: a ton of stuff and then burns out, and the
Speaker 1: person who does all the genealogy side, it's like, oh,
Speaker 1: oh look, I set myself a reminder for every two
Speaker 1: and a half two months and twelve days, and it's
Speaker 1: been that time. Let's log in and post some weird stuff. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm I'm much happier having to do it
Speaker 1: done an episode. If it's like a coded message number
Speaker 1: station thing, well that's because you've got a thing for that.
Speaker 1: But I think they didn't do a very good job
Speaker 1: of keeping a little profile if that was the purpose.
Speaker 1: And I think I just think it's somebody that I
Speaker 1: think is probably sufferings from some wellness something. I like
Speaker 1: the long con a little bit better, just because I
Speaker 1: like conspiracies. But there's one person who knows, and that's Karen. So, Karen,
Speaker 1: send us an email or friend us on Facebook. There's
Speaker 1: a problem with that is that you're presuming that she's
Speaker 1: real and that she exists. Yeah, that's true, that's true,
Speaker 1: but somebody made her up. Well you can friend us too.
Speaker 1: That okay, but then we'll never know. Well, let us
Speaker 1: just that fess up. Keep you, we'll keep it. Send us,
Speaker 1: send a messenger. We won't tell. We promise that bombshell.
Speaker 1: Are you if you are Karen Um? Yeah, please contact
Speaker 1: Please contact us. No. So we'll post some links from
Speaker 1: the research on our website. You can also listen and
Speaker 1: download the episode on the website, as well as find
Speaker 1: our entire what is it like two hundred and five
Speaker 1: episode archive or something like that. You can count the
Speaker 1: short five thousand, four hundred seventy two millions. Yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: pretty sure that's how it is. Yeah. So you can
Speaker 1: find all that stuff on our website, which is Thinking
Speaker 1: Sideways podcast dot com. There's also links to our merch
Speaker 1: sites on the website. If you want to buy a
Speaker 1: shirt or a mug up. We got a new shirt up.
Speaker 1: That's right, new shirt cool. If you want to find
Speaker 1: us on social media, as previously mentioned, we do have
Speaker 1: a Facebook. Don't friend us? Actually, um, you can like
Speaker 1: our page. You can join our group, but if you
Speaker 1: friend us, we will reject your request. Sorryct, we just
Speaker 1: reject all the requests exactly. We can still join the group.
Speaker 1: We don't like you, It's true. We also have a
Speaker 1: Twitter which is Thinking Sideways um, and we have a
Speaker 1: sub credit which is UM thinking site ways. You can
Speaker 1: also email us, like I said, if you're Karen and
Speaker 1: you like are scared of social media, now send us
Speaker 1: an email. Yep. That email address is Thinking Sideways Podcast
Speaker 1: at gmail dot com. And I think all of that
Speaker 1: having been said, uh, we're just going to get out
Speaker 1: of here. I think it's time yeah logging off, sweet,
Speaker 1: I'm craving a Waldorf salad. I am related to everybody,
Speaker 1: and I will now begin to list off every person
Speaker 1: that I am related to in history. Okay, in reverse
Speaker 1: chronological order. Great Okay, hit hit the record button.