Speaker 1: Pushkin.
Speaker 2: Last week we went back and replayed my conversation with
Speaker 2: Usher to celebrate his Super Bowl performance and the incredible
Speaker 2: career resurgence he's had over the last couple of years.
Speaker 2: In thinking about our back catalog of episodes, I thought
Speaker 2: there was another conversation worth revisiting, Malcolm Gladwell speaking with
Speaker 2: Ziggy Marley about the cultural influence the tiny country of
Speaker 2: Jamaica and Ziggy's dad, Bob Marley, have had over the
Speaker 2: last half a century. The Bob Marley bio Pick One Love,
Speaker 2: was released in theaters yesterday. I hope anyone familiar with
Speaker 2: the Bob Marley name or his music will go see
Speaker 2: it at some point if I wanted to keep the
Speaker 2: conversation about his songs and his political thinking alive and
Speaker 2: to guard against his legacy becoming further Whitewashington commercialized, which
Speaker 2: feels increasingly inevitable as the years after his death continue on.
Speaker 2: So have a listen to Malcolm's conversation with Ziggy from
Speaker 2: a couple of years back, see the movie Spend some
Speaker 2: Time with Males catalog and some of the other great
Speaker 2: Jamaican music from that time, from Prince Buster to Alton
Speaker 2: Ellis and beyond. This is broken record liner notes for
Speaker 2: the digital age.
Speaker 1: I'm justin Richmond.
Speaker 2: Here's Malcolm Gladwell and Ziggy Marley. This conversation was taped
Speaker 2: live as part of the Live Talks Los Angeles series.
Speaker 1: This book that you've done, with all of these photos
Speaker 1: of your father, it had a kind of personal residence
Speaker 1: for me because, as you may know, my mom is
Speaker 1: Jamaican and when I was growing up in the seventies,
Speaker 1: we would go to Jamaica every year every Christmas and
Speaker 1: all these so many of these photos are from the
Speaker 1: Jamaica that I remember as a kid. It's funny, It's like,
Speaker 1: I mean, it's very personal for you, but in this
Speaker 1: weird indirect way, it's personal for me too. You know
Speaker 1: how when you look at a photo of Jamaica, you
Speaker 1: can smell Jamaica. I could smell I could smell Jamaica again,
Speaker 1: It's this lovely like took me back to my childhood.
Speaker 1: What led you to want to do this book?
Speaker 3: So over the years we've we've collected a lot of
Speaker 3: photographs of Bob. I'm from different photographers and stuff like that.
Speaker 3: And you know, usually I think the photographs you say
Speaker 3: a Bob are iconic photographs. You know, you always see
Speaker 3: the iconic images, and so for this, we came upon
Speaker 3: the seven the fifth at birthday anniversary, and I felt like,
Speaker 3: let's do some special for the seven fifth. Let's take
Speaker 3: some of these photos archives and put together a photobook.
Speaker 3: The family has never done one before, other people have
Speaker 3: done one. Then I'm totally understand. Always said when you
Speaker 3: talk about you smell Jamaica the photos because during the book,
Speaker 3: like it brought me back to that time too, you know,
Speaker 3: looking at it just it's like it's such a it's
Speaker 3: such a real experience, a real thing that when I
Speaker 3: was looking at the photos, it, you know, everything just
Speaker 3: kind of came back to me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, when you say, I was just thinking logistically, you said,
Speaker 1: this is really the family's book. There's so many of you.
Speaker 1: How on earth did you guys? Did you guys coordinate
Speaker 1: picking all of these photos? Did you have like a
Speaker 1: family counsel where you all sat down and went through them?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 3: No, well I was given a task. I was given
Speaker 3: that responsibility of going through the photos.
Speaker 4: That's all we do.
Speaker 3: Kind of delegate responsibilities. Yeah, you know, everybody, this is
Speaker 3: your project, your you have you have the family's approval
Speaker 3: and blessing.
Speaker 4: Is your project, go ahead and do it, you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, tell me about your your memories of your father.
Speaker 1: You so, you're born in sixty eight, so you when
Speaker 1: he dies, you're you're just a teenager.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was going on thirteen.
Speaker 1: Yeah, tell me tell me a little bit about what
Speaker 1: you remember of your father.
Speaker 3: Well everything, I mean, they's not'ing to forget really, because
Speaker 3: the limited experience we've had with him, you know, everything
Speaker 3: was memorable and left everlasting impact on my psyche. You know,
Speaker 3: I said everything it was like going to school, but
Speaker 3: a different type of school, you know, I said, like
Speaker 3: so growing not put bob. I mean, there was different elements.
Speaker 3: It was fun side, happicide and clear on the children.
Speaker 4: We will travel to the countryside, this hometown every now
Speaker 4: and again. I didn't fun. I remember those days. They
Speaker 4: were no seats.
Speaker 3: He would have been a lap in the front seat
Speaker 3: or seat no no, no ear back.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I believe it. I remember that Jamaica in
Speaker 1: the back of the Volkswagen Beetle driven by my uncle.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah.
Speaker 4: My my mom had one of those two. She had
Speaker 4: one of those Beatles too.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, But I mean and then there was a serious side.
Speaker 3: It was what I saw was a lot of discipline.
Speaker 4: This money.
Speaker 3: I love work hard this mane, I love discipline, this money.
Speaker 3: He's from the countryside and he's so rute rooted in
Speaker 3: his humility that for him to call back to his
Speaker 3: home towne I go back to trenchtone in the ghetto.
Speaker 4: It was like, it's just it's just Bob. This is
Speaker 4: just Bob. It's not like Bob.
Speaker 3: The the superstar or whatever, you know, It's just bib So.
Speaker 3: I mean lots of socle, lots of football, socle music,
Speaker 3: socle music, and the spiritual side of it was very
Speaker 3: powerful thing. And as love having Bible. And he would
Speaker 3: take me and my brother Steve into this what you
Speaker 3: call him. It's like service, like you know people got
Speaker 3: to church service, or people go to the synagague or
Speaker 3: the masque. When we had these thing called naia bingis
Speaker 3: and we would it would be like some weird time
Speaker 3: at night.
Speaker 4: And it was such a mystical.
Speaker 3: That's why I said it left such an impression on
Speaker 3: me as a child, because it was such a the
Speaker 3: not being was such a mystical thing, you know, smoke, fire, drums, singing,
Speaker 3: chanting and a whole spiritual vibe, you know. So yeah,
Speaker 3: you know, we go up in that kind of environment
Speaker 3: where every memory really is stuck with us, and the
Speaker 3: memory is stuck with us more than just a memory.
Speaker 3: It stuck with us as like I experience that has
Speaker 3: kind of molded us into who we are today. You know,
Speaker 3: is a It's a really heavy thing, you know, it's heavy.
Speaker 1: Yeah. The other part of it that's fastening to me,
Speaker 1: as I said earlier, was the Jamaica of that period,
Speaker 1: which is Jamaica in the seventies. So many of these
Speaker 1: photos are about Jamaica in the seventies, and Jamaican in
Speaker 1: the seventies is an intense place. I mean, politics is
Speaker 1: manly in Siaga, and there's violence, and there's gun court,
Speaker 1: and there's reggae and there's you know, don Quarry winning
Speaker 1: gold medal. I mean, it's just sort of like there's
Speaker 1: so I remember go there as a kid. It's just
Speaker 1: like so much. I was coming from rural Canada where
Speaker 1: nothing happened, to a place where everything was happening. Can
Speaker 1: you talk a little bit about that. I mean, you
Speaker 1: were in the epicenter of this because your father was
Speaker 1: at the was the kind of in the middle of
Speaker 1: the of the maelstream.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there were certain minor posts that I can like
Speaker 3: remember about the seventies, especially the more turbulent times the politics.
Speaker 3: So we can go back. I remember the night my
Speaker 3: appearents verse, right. I remember before my mom left to
Speaker 3: go to Ursus. I was like, yo, Mommy, take.
Speaker 4: Me to Earth.
Speaker 3: I wanted to go. I wanted to go to use
Speaker 3: and said no, like you have school tomorrow. And I
Speaker 3: was like very like angry that she never let me
Speaker 3: go to Ursers. And then, you know, looking back after
Speaker 3: the shoot, I think she probably.
Speaker 4: It was a good decision, right. So I remember that night.
Speaker 3: I remember she leaving and we went to bed, right,
Speaker 3: But in the middle of the night, some police came
Speaker 3: to the house and like grabbed us up and like
Speaker 3: there's a lot of you know, like chaos, and like
Speaker 3: let's go move, let's go, let's go get the kids
Speaker 3: them out of the house, and they drove us to.
Speaker 4: Wherever we were going. We never know. I was just
Speaker 4: like this, I was like, the fuck this year? What
Speaker 4: is seventy seventy six?
Speaker 3: But you're about geting the assassination seventy six y So
Speaker 3: Another more impacerful experience was with my mom. Actually we're
Speaker 3: talking about the seventies and what was going on there,
Speaker 3: the political upheaval and just you know, the drama and everything.
Speaker 4: So my some my mom pick us up from school.
Speaker 3: This was during the height of the there was a
Speaker 3: big protest going on political They were blacking the roads,
Speaker 3: fire burning, tires burning in the streets.
Speaker 4: So my mom picked us up from school in.
Speaker 3: The Beatle in the vub's driving us home and we
Speaker 3: come up on our road back.
Speaker 4: Okay, okay, I get home. We're not too far from home.
Speaker 3: But we can pass because these guys there, there's tires burning,
Speaker 3: and these guys are like and I remember being in
Speaker 3: a back seat and watching my mother.
Speaker 4: She came out of the car and she confronted these
Speaker 4: guys in a very bridge brave.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's brave what she did, like stand up
Speaker 3: and say, yo, know whatever I do. She cursed and
Speaker 3: she tacked them down, and they kind of like, okay,
Speaker 3: I'm kind of part part of the road back and
Speaker 3: we drove through. So that's that's another memory that's like
Speaker 3: from remember that time and the turbulent political situation. Those
Speaker 3: two mile posts is what I go back to but
Speaker 3: I mean there was good times to man, you know
Speaker 3: what I mean, I mean going back to change, don't
Speaker 3: playing football. You know, it was a very double edged
Speaker 3: sword that period of time because it was so good too.
Speaker 4: The vibe, the energy of the music.
Speaker 3: There's so much live and there's so much revolutionary like change,
Speaker 3: you know, like it's the same time Bob and Clyde
Speaker 3: muss Up, who was a strong man or a strong
Speaker 3: arm the political function and Bucking Marshall, they came together
Speaker 3: and were starting to kind of dis owned the politics.
Speaker 4: And I was there too.
Speaker 3: I met I met all of these guys take live
Speaker 3: and I knew, I knew what was happening, and I
Speaker 3: kind of but actually when I got later and I
Speaker 3: kind of understand who these guys were because I just
Speaker 3: saw them as guys, as Bob's friends, and I know
Speaker 3: they were meeting and talking and blah blah blah. But
Speaker 3: when I grew up, I realized these guys were some
Speaker 3: dangerous men. They weren't just like some love. These guys
Speaker 3: were some serious guys, you know. So that is yeah,
Speaker 3: that is the world.
Speaker 4: That is the world. You know.
Speaker 1: Back in the seventies, I remember funny you talk about
Speaker 1: your mother and that bla black. My grandfather telling me
Speaker 1: that he driving down the road and there'd be a roadblock,
Speaker 1: and he got really good at guessing whether it was
Speaker 1: j LP or pn P, the two two parties. So
Speaker 1: take a look. He's like, that's JLP wave. It is
Speaker 1: fished out the window j LP. They're like waving through
Speaker 1: the P and P. But you know, to your point,
Speaker 1: it's the world that burst this extraordiny amount of your
Speaker 1: father's music. I mean, it's what gave his music such
Speaker 1: immediacy and urgency and power. Did your father talk a
Speaker 1: lot about the cut of the politics of Jamaica?
Speaker 4: Not, I mean not to me.
Speaker 3: I mean I've heard, I've overheard stuff and i've you know,
Speaker 3: but never directed to us.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean he's spoken about it.
Speaker 3: Obviously, he's not a political person to say, well, decide
Speaker 3: these politics are that political party or whatever. I think
Speaker 3: he was because his thing was rastafar right, which is
Speaker 3: another thing. It's need a pn P, I JP. It's
Speaker 3: like it's all things. And what was happening was that
Speaker 3: all of the mentioned Claude Master, Boki Marshall, these were
Speaker 3: the strong arms. They were These were the enforces of
Speaker 3: the political party, the lead enforce us.
Speaker 4: These guys were coming over to Bob side.
Speaker 3: So there was a whole other thing going on that
Speaker 3: the political poets were losing their their muscle to this
Speaker 3: idea of RASTAFARII. And that was what bubb was really about,
Speaker 3: really if it, I mean, if if he was about politics,
Speaker 3: it was the political party of Rasta Farirai, which is
Speaker 3: a spiritual movement, you know, change, change how things are.
Speaker 3: So I think that was his politics. Rastafari was his politics.
Speaker 1: We could say, you know, yeah, I was trying to
Speaker 1: think whether there's another musical artist who has had the
Speaker 1: same kind of status in his or her home country
Speaker 1: as your father did. I mean, I remembering that famous
Speaker 1: concert where the two political figures of the day and
Speaker 1: manly didn't they shake hands on stage? Had had a
Speaker 1: Bob Marley concert.
Speaker 4: Yeah, the one loved Peace concert.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, the analogy would be as if Donald
Speaker 1: Trump and Joe Biden had kind of hugged on stage
Speaker 1: at a Bruce Springsteen concert. Right, that's the that's the
Speaker 1: club I mean, But it doesn'ty, that doesn't even capture it.
Speaker 1: I mean, this is why I love the book so
Speaker 1: much because it takes us back to the time and
Speaker 1: the place. Yeah, there's wonderful photos of the One Love
Speaker 1: Concert with Siega and Michael Manley.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I remember that that was there. Me and my
Speaker 3: brother went on stage. That's what we usually do. Like
Speaker 3: me'am Stephen, my brother Steven, you would go on stage.
Speaker 3: We would go on stage in that last time, which
Speaker 3: is usually exodus those times was tough to the One
Speaker 3: Love Peace Concert. So I remember, let me.
Speaker 4: Let me.
Speaker 3: I don't think we're being afforded at that period. But
Speaker 3: when Bob after the assassination attempt and Bob I'd come
Speaker 3: home far the One Love Peace Concert, So we all
Speaker 3: went to the airport, and you know, there was totally
Speaker 3: enough people at the air because Bob's coming back. And
Speaker 3: the thing is that political strongmen for the parties, political
Speaker 3: parties now we're on the same page as Bob. And
Speaker 3: so everyone that supports these political parties now was supporting
Speaker 3: Bob and and and these these guys who know have
Speaker 3: their own ideas of peace and less political violence.
Speaker 4: So the airport was full.
Speaker 3: And then I was there and I remember the crowd
Speaker 3: and then pulled Bob and I'm there, I'm outside now
Speaker 3: in this crowd, all mixed up with everybody, and Bob
Speaker 3: get pulled into a car and I'm by the window
Speaker 3: like this, Why no, he pulled me through the window.
Speaker 1: Well you knew you got left behind.
Speaker 4: I got mixed up in the cow. It was like
Speaker 4: this crowd. No, there wasn't I had no nanny, r
Speaker 4: nobody watching me.
Speaker 1: It's important to remember in this moment in Jamaican history,
Speaker 1: it's almost like the country is in is instead of
Speaker 1: civil war, there is violence everywhere. You know, people are
Speaker 1: leaving Jamaica and droves to come to the United States
Speaker 1: or Canada to escape. It's a kind of a crazy period.
Speaker 3: But it's funny not only as civil wars, like a
Speaker 3: geopolitical work going on to at the same time between
Speaker 3: the United States and Russia and Cuba, because that was
Speaker 3: the old thing.
Speaker 4: That's why Edward Seaga he was a buston.
Speaker 3: He guarded from Boston University, and so there was the
Speaker 3: geopolitical situation.
Speaker 4: Even elevated the stakes even more.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and Bob, I mean, Bob wasn't a serious position
Speaker 3: and nobody knew, but he wasn't a serious position because
Speaker 3: of the geopolitical element. Would would America allow a socialist
Speaker 3: government who has ties with Cuba to have another, which
Speaker 3: would then mean Russia having a more influence in that region.
Speaker 3: You know, America didn't want and would not allow that.
Speaker 3: And now there was this guy, this singer guy who
Speaker 3: who people were drawn to, and he was like she
Speaker 3: had some politic got power too because the political strong
Speaker 3: men and their people are now drawn to this singer guy.
Speaker 3: Who's this singer guy, you know what I'm saying. So
Speaker 3: the states were really high beyond what I think we realized,
Speaker 3: or even Bob might have realized at the time. Are
Speaker 3: people around him you know.
Speaker 2: We'll be back with Malcolm Gladwell and Ziggy Marley after
Speaker 2: a break. We're back with more from Ziggy Marley and
Speaker 2: Malcolm Gladwell.
Speaker 1: Can you think of a musical figure who is analogous
Speaker 1: to your father?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think more fella cute from Nigeria.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and him he was, you know, he was another
Speaker 3: one of my I met him once, not Chica, but
Speaker 3: he was he was serious. He was really, I mean
Speaker 3: what he did in in Nigeria standing up against the government,
Speaker 3: the brutality and the songs he.
Speaker 4: Wrote about that.
Speaker 3: Really, he just like my father assassination, and I mean
Speaker 3: they would read him and beat him and beat his
Speaker 3: mother and you know a type of things.
Speaker 4: So I felt it would be a good analogy to Bob.
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, yeah, And there are a couple maybe
Speaker 1: a couple of South African la maybe it would be
Speaker 1: a good analogy. But when do you become aware that
Speaker 1: you want to make your life in music? Is that
Speaker 1: something that comes to you very young and looking at
Speaker 1: your father or afterwards after his death.
Speaker 4: No, it comes, it comes before that.
Speaker 3: I mean the first concert we played, it was a
Speaker 3: concert that Bob wasn't It was the International year the
Speaker 3: children hear that was same to nine. So he and
Speaker 3: he wrote the first song that we have a song.
Speaker 3: So we was always music and Bob would always call
Speaker 3: us to sing when he's writing, it'll come sing.
Speaker 4: We're playing. We want to go play.
Speaker 3: He started telling us to come sing, you know, so
Speaker 3: we'll start very young with music. The thing I get
Speaker 3: from Bob musically speaking, is a discipline and the focus
Speaker 3: and the seriousness in which you approach the music. The
Speaker 3: respect that they gave the music. So you have to
Speaker 3: put in the work that shows you respect the music
Speaker 3: is not like it and you know, you have to
Speaker 3: sing the right No you ever practice, you know, so
Speaker 3: really when we used to see that and much about
Speaker 3: the Marrs, and I think for some reason I grew
Speaker 3: up taking that ethic of hard work and putting it
Speaker 3: into my own music of my life in general, you know,
Speaker 3: the exercise and or whatever.
Speaker 4: I think seeing him just you know, grining and like
Speaker 4: want to make it right.
Speaker 3: And the discipline, the discipline, you know said, the discipline
Speaker 3: is really is a strong impact on me seeing that
Speaker 3: discipline as growing up around that.
Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about the way he
Speaker 1: made music? I mean, was there was there a kind
Speaker 1: of an approach that a particular approach and can you
Speaker 1: can you give a loves of an example of how
Speaker 1: he worked and how he created?
Speaker 3: Well what I saw and this was probably in Miami
Speaker 3: at his mother's house. Yeah, but he always had this
Speaker 3: guitar around and a lot of time it's mumbling. You
Speaker 3: don't really it's not a song, you just hear ideas
Speaker 3: coming out.
Speaker 4: And for me, he would always have fun with it.
Speaker 3: It was never like a serious like writing and you know,
Speaker 3: it was like something very joyful in the process, was
Speaker 3: very joyful, unhappy, and people around and laughing and you know,
Speaker 3: you getting the lyrics making fun. There's this one, and
Speaker 3: I don't think you never did release this one.
Speaker 4: It was released. It's kind of like he.
Speaker 3: Did it as a demo real It's kind of like
Speaker 3: a really good time and.
Speaker 4: I don't remember him being in Miami.
Speaker 3: In his bedroom with his O Vision guitar and it
Speaker 3: was just having fun with you, having a real good time,
Speaker 3: you know, and people you know, I'm a smoke and
Speaker 3: split fun. It's just a good energy, just a good vibe,
Speaker 3: you know what it's like. And then you never hear
Speaker 3: what a sound complete. You only hear when it come
Speaker 3: on the record. You hear pieces of it, ideas of
Speaker 3: things you know, and then you hear a record. So
Speaker 3: you never I never him complete one song righting a
Speaker 3: song completely, you know, you always hear a little bits
Speaker 3: and pieces here and there.
Speaker 1: When your father became ill, was there a sense of
Speaker 1: urgency with him? Did his work take on a new
Speaker 1: kind of seriousness?
Speaker 4: No, he was always urgent from him.
Speaker 3: I mean he was urgent from the get go, because
Speaker 3: there are a few examples of that kind of energy
Speaker 3: of his urgency, of his work, ethic, of his determination.
Speaker 3: So he was in the band of Winners with with
Speaker 3: Bonnie and Peter, these three guys, right, they were in
Speaker 3: his band and obviously in a world code because a
Speaker 3: kind to what he said in an interview, it was
Speaker 3: like and said these words, he used my name. He says,
Speaker 3: if if you think when Ziggy wants to go to
Speaker 3: school that he can say, like he didn't want to work,
Speaker 3: he didn't want to do this what you know, so
Speaker 3: he wants to work, you know, he wants to get
Speaker 3: things done. There was always an urgency. There was never
Speaker 3: a lot of time. There was never a lot of time.
Speaker 3: There was always music. There was never and like all right,
Speaker 3: let me take a vacation, now, let my got chill out.
Speaker 3: Now there's no It was like thirty six I mean,
Speaker 3: how much in thirty six years of like pushing, you know,
Speaker 3: pushing it, pushing and pushing it, touring, never stopping, so
Speaker 3: that urgency of field was always there.
Speaker 1: Of all of his music, what are the songs that
Speaker 1: speak to you the most.
Speaker 3: The song that gets minimalist is a redemption song because
Speaker 3: I remember Shout of Empires.
Speaker 4: That was the album that was the album.
Speaker 3: That song was was the emotional spear, the emotional arrow.
Speaker 3: You know when you hear that song that in that
Speaker 3: time So that memory of that song I related to
Speaker 3: that time period and it was human his guitar. It's
Speaker 3: so it's so soulful and just the final thing is
Speaker 3: just Himan and guitar, and so that song always kind
Speaker 3: of have an emotional impart on me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to know more about your childhood. There's
Speaker 1: a lot of moving around. Your family went to London
Speaker 1: right after the shooting, is that right?
Speaker 3: Yeah, but we we never got London, So all right,
Speaker 3: so chrenched down right Changtown where where I was born
Speaker 3: in Changstown. We grew up in a Changstone a little
Speaker 3: bit and then moved to Delaware, where his mother had
Speaker 3: moved I migrated to.
Speaker 4: So we lived in Delaware, Williamington, Delaware.
Speaker 3: I went to school elementary school in Delaware for maybe
Speaker 3: a year or so.
Speaker 4: Then we moved up to Jamaica.
Speaker 3: But we moved out out Trenchtone and move into a
Speaker 3: place called Bulby, which is a much better standard of living.
Speaker 4: It's like, you know, not poor, but not rich.
Speaker 3: It's like the middle class or something like that in
Speaker 3: Jamaica at the time. But it's funny within that middle
Speaker 3: class community when a mother lived. We were still with
Speaker 3: our grand aunt and it was like we had to
Speaker 3: walk up the road and up the hill and she
Speaker 3: was living in a poor a poor classhouse with no
Speaker 3: what I no tilet no nothing, so right within that
Speaker 3: middle class thing years right, If I went to my aunt,
Speaker 3: I was like I was another neighborhood. And so we
Speaker 3: would stay with her a lot of times because mommy
Speaker 3: and Daddy would go on tour and then we would
Speaker 3: have to stay with Granda Auntie in that house there.
Speaker 4: And then after that we moved to an upper middle.
Speaker 3: Class neighborhood now, and then after after my father passed Awa,
Speaker 3: my mother move us into a more upper class in
Speaker 3: the hills with a big house and lots of rooms
Speaker 3: and stuff like that. So yeah, that was the movement
Speaker 3: and it was fun as a child. Everything was a
Speaker 3: great learning experience, you know, this life with my family
Speaker 3: and my father and my mother and what they were
Speaker 3: going through.
Speaker 4: I was also learning from. At the same time, what's.
Speaker 1: It like going back to Jamaica now? Get mobbed walking?
Speaker 4: Do?
Speaker 3: I haven't been back in a while. Still about going
Speaker 3: back when I went back last time? Jam, I mean
Speaker 3: a lot, a lot has changed at another generation.
Speaker 4: A lot of the vibes that's changed, the old look
Speaker 4: has changed.
Speaker 3: You know, I'm a lot of more Americanization of Jamaica.
Speaker 4: But the country side is where the magic still remains.
Speaker 4: You know. The city, the city's side, I'm not so,
Speaker 4: I'm not.
Speaker 3: It's not when we when we were growing up in
Speaker 3: a city, it wasn't like a big metropolitan city. It
Speaker 3: was like a look a town and it was still
Speaker 3: had that vibe of like you're still in Jamaica. But no,
Speaker 3: it kind of the city kind of gets a little
Speaker 3: more hectic and so, but the country side is is
Speaker 3: still where it's. Jamaica has a vibe to it. You
Speaker 3: don't really get anywhere from me. You know, it's a
Speaker 3: very inspirational place if you find the right spot.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Ian Fleming, he wrote this gens band stuff in Jamaica.
Speaker 1: GoldenEye, Golden Eye is written in Jamaica, new Port, Antonio.
Speaker 1: I think there's a there was a there was a house,
Speaker 1: he stated, Yes, that's right.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, so plenty inspiration.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's easy to see why Jamaicans have such an
Speaker 1: inflated sense of their own importance because the whole world
Speaker 1: comes running very pro Yeah, I want to talk about
Speaker 1: some of the photographs that mean the most to you
Speaker 1: in this book. My first question was how many of
Speaker 1: these photographs did you take, our other family members take
Speaker 1: and how many of them are professional photographs?
Speaker 4: Well, I didn't, we never take any. These aren't all photographs.
Speaker 4: These are professional.
Speaker 3: There's there's his friend never who used to do his
Speaker 3: lighting and design his album or have some photos in there.
Speaker 3: But with the book, what we what I try to
Speaker 3: do is do a balance of those type of professional
Speaker 3: like iconic images and with more like images of you know,
Speaker 3: just in real life outside of the musician, outside of
Speaker 3: the stage, you know, show some bags, you know, show
Speaker 3: him beyond that, and for trying, as I said in
Speaker 3: the book, trying to make people even feel a deeper
Speaker 3: relationship to him. Because if you know someone just as
Speaker 3: you I can are as you as a as a musician,
Speaker 3: I mean a singer, then that's one we have done.
Speaker 3: But if he can't get a deeper understanding of his
Speaker 3: his life during that same period of time beyond that,
Speaker 3: then you can feel even more connected to the person
Speaker 3: and on that level.
Speaker 4: So that's what I was trying to do with the book.
Speaker 3: You know, but we never have unfortunate way at the time,
Speaker 3: we never readly a letter. You know, we never have
Speaker 3: cameras and we never have a camera. We never have
Speaker 3: my camera. Yeah, you know, photographers have cameras. We have cameras.
Speaker 1: With the process of going through all these photographs painful,
Speaker 1: what's the prop all kinds of memories.
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, but joyful, not painful.
Speaker 3: I mean melan Caliber Barby's at here and when you
Speaker 3: look at the photograph, he said, oh, what a young man.
Speaker 4: I'm fifty that I'm fifty two now.
Speaker 3: So when I look at him, He's like, look at
Speaker 3: this young guy, young kid, you know what I mean?
Speaker 3: Why you know, it's so that is a sad thing,
Speaker 3: but there's so much the joy overwegh that there's so
Speaker 3: much joy.
Speaker 4: I'm just looking at him and seeing him in that
Speaker 4: way were I know he was having a good time
Speaker 4: while he was doing it too.
Speaker 3: You know, he wasn't upsetaatey. He was having a good time.
Speaker 3: He enjoyed, he enjoyed his experience. You know, I said,
Speaker 3: so I feel happy about that that guy. I know
Speaker 3: he was having a good time doing it. You know,
Speaker 3: there's a photo we want to talk about the photo.
Speaker 4: Let's go to m pages ninety seven China and appeared
Speaker 4: ninety seven.
Speaker 3: If he can't come from it seems it seemed like
Speaker 3: at his home, in his home in the countryside. Oh yes,
Speaker 3: so this guy I used to we used to go
Speaker 3: to the country. This is the same time we used
Speaker 3: to go back with him on a trip. And this
Speaker 3: this is just the real Bob, you know, I said,
Speaker 3: this is and these are the people, this is where
Speaker 3: come from. These are his people, this is his roots.
Speaker 3: He was born on this land. And I mean, you
Speaker 3: can't see the guys he's coming to. He's either coming
Speaker 3: from the fielder going to the field, have some probably
Speaker 3: yeaman stuff in that crocus bag you have there.
Speaker 4: And everybody. I mean, Bubble was just one of the people.
Speaker 4: He was just one of them.
Speaker 3: And as you can see, and he's talking, he's eating
Speaker 3: a banner and antargions and some of the kids them,
Speaker 3: you know, and some of them have shoes on, some
Speaker 3: don't have shoes.
Speaker 4: On, and they're laughing.
Speaker 3: Well, you know, in communication with people, of good communication,
Speaker 3: skilling up with.
Speaker 4: People, and you know, yeah, and just having fun. He
Speaker 4: was en giant life. He's sitting and he's sitting on
Speaker 4: the stairs here on the next page of.
Speaker 1: The pictures is I mean he's so you can just
Speaker 1: tell how relaxing at Homie is.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: But at the time this photo is taken, he's at
Speaker 1: the height of his fame.
Speaker 3: Yeah, man, after the assassination at so this is yeah,
Speaker 3: he's at the height right here. And this is as
Speaker 3: you see this, he's leaning On the other page, he's
Speaker 3: leaning up on the VW van. This is so we
Speaker 3: had Mama had a beat her and he he would
Speaker 3: drive this VW van.
Speaker 1: I think those are the only two kinds of cars
Speaker 1: they were in Jamaica in those years, BW beatles.
Speaker 4: So yeah, and yeah, some of these people, some of
Speaker 4: them is his cousins too. There's a couple of cousins
Speaker 4: in here.
Speaker 3: This is at home. And then this is the last
Speaker 3: photo from that series. I think if you go to
Speaker 3: the next page, is him sitting down stealing sentence.
Speaker 4: But he's alone. His guitars on.
Speaker 3: The floor here on the ground right here, and he's
Speaker 3: he's barefoot also right there.
Speaker 4: This photon is like, this is Bob.
Speaker 3: I think Bob was always like Alona, and he always
Speaker 3: felt alone although he had so many people around him.
Speaker 3: This is Bob, this is him and his like, this
Speaker 3: is his meditation, this is him like in his space,
Speaker 3: you know what I'm saying, alone and just vibing. I
Speaker 3: felt like he felt like he was always alone in
Speaker 3: some way, you know, and this kind of represents that
Speaker 3: loneliness in a way.
Speaker 2: We'll be back with more from Ziggy Marley after this
Speaker 2: quick break. We're back with the rest of Malcolm's conversation
Speaker 2: with Ziggy Marley. As an added bonus, you'll hear the
Speaker 2: Live Talks Los Angeles moderator take questions from the audience
Speaker 2: at the end of Malcolm's interview.
Speaker 1: I love some of these group shots. There's there's on
Speaker 1: page fifty, there's this fantastic group shot with the band
Speaker 1: The Yes.
Speaker 4: All right, this photo was taken in in England. I
Speaker 4: was here. I was there.
Speaker 3: We were on the way to Zimbabwe. Are coming from Zimbabwe.
Speaker 3: That's why the next quota of me, if you look
Speaker 3: at next quota, this is England too.
Speaker 4: So this is this is the time period.
Speaker 3: We're there, right before Zimbabwe, are after Zimbabwe. We were
Speaker 3: in Yeah, and I went on the trip with him,
Speaker 3: and you know, football as usual.
Speaker 1: I had not realized the extent to which she was
Speaker 1: a soccer First of all, I know your son, but
Speaker 1: I want you to be honest. How good was he?
Speaker 4: That was good.
Speaker 3: I mean I remember you played against me when I
Speaker 3: was in you know, sometime of appearance versus. I was
Speaker 3: on the soccer team in elementary school and I remember
Speaker 3: he came. There was a peer versus you know, students,
Speaker 3: and you know, so he came and I was like, yeah,
Speaker 3: I marked this guy.
Speaker 4: I'm marked. I have this guy. I'll take him.
Speaker 3: But he was fast, which is good, and he had
Speaker 3: a good kick, and he had a good player.
Speaker 4: He was a good player. Cousin. He idolized soccer player.
Speaker 3: One of his good friends was Alan skillcoll who was
Speaker 3: like the top Jamaican player at the time, and they
Speaker 3: were good friends.
Speaker 4: So, I mean, he kept fit.
Speaker 3: He kept his workout was like a professional soccer player workout,
Speaker 3: you know. Abdomena was you know, running on the sand
Speaker 3: playing soccer like that was that was that was a workout.
Speaker 3: There's a soccer player workout basically. And his friends, all
Speaker 3: of his friends were soccer players. I could play soccer.
Speaker 3: He was drawn towards you know people like that, you know, but.
Speaker 1: Zig to be a fan of of Jamaican soccer. Is
Speaker 1: it exercise in masochism? It's like the I know this
Speaker 1: from my cousins. Nothing is more painful than this team
Speaker 1: that just loses and loses and loses.
Speaker 4: About the funny things. And we have some of the
Speaker 4: best players in the world.
Speaker 3: But I don't know, cause I think we had some
Speaker 3: great players, but we have the best runner.
Speaker 4: Well, you always have the best runners, the fastest runner.
Speaker 1: That's but that's been true forever. I want to talk
Speaker 1: a little bit about your own music, and you must
Speaker 1: have thought about you had this extraordinary gift, which is
Speaker 1: the gift of your father and his legacy, but it
Speaker 1: also presents a challenge to kind of carve out your
Speaker 1: own identity in that. How do you approach that?
Speaker 3: When I go back and look at my history, right,
Speaker 3: our family history, so we have musicians and artists on
Speaker 3: both sides of my family. A lot of people always
Speaker 3: talk about my father, and like I said, my mother
Speaker 3: was always key in in everything.
Speaker 4: My mother was actually a keen Bob's success. We don't
Speaker 4: my mother. Bob wouldn't be as successful. I wouldn't even
Speaker 4: have what he has.
Speaker 3: She was the one who reintroduced him, or introduced him
Speaker 3: to the Rastafara and culture, which had a big impact
Speaker 3: on him mentally and spiritually. She's the one who when
Speaker 3: they didn't have nothing, She's the one who gave him
Speaker 3: somewhere to sleep, and she was the one who slept
Speaker 3: on the floor with him in the studios, who sold
Speaker 3: records with him on their head, riding their bicycles through
Speaker 3: through the streets. She was the one who got shut
Speaker 3: in her head the same time he got shut in
Speaker 3: the hand, and still showed up for the concert when
Speaker 3: other people are like, no, we're not going.
Speaker 4: She still had a bullet in her head. So her
Speaker 4: impact on his legacy.
Speaker 3: And where we are is I always remember that too,
Speaker 3: you know, when I think about my what you just
Speaker 3: asked me about, you know, making my own way or whatever,
Speaker 3: I remember that what I have is that just coming
Speaker 3: from my father's, coming from my mother, her grandfather, her father.
Speaker 4: My grandfather was a saxophone player. My father and mother and.
Speaker 3: His family were all church people, singers, they're singing churches,
Speaker 3: and so the spirit there's you know, it's sides. And
Speaker 3: for me, yes, I understand the question of my father
Speaker 3: and his his wit or his impact on what it
Speaker 3: would mean to someone like me, are son of any
Speaker 3: person like Bob, and and how we kind of who
Speaker 3: we who choose to be in the same line, and
Speaker 3: we're kind of have to overcome whatever that thing is.
Speaker 3: So for me never really was on the forefront of
Speaker 3: my mind, and it was on the peripherals.
Speaker 4: And I heard it. I heard him thing and I
Speaker 4: heard it, but I never paid much attention to it.
Speaker 3: I started seeking a spiritual part when I was a teenager.
Speaker 3: Somebody who will mental see it was evolved beyond that
Speaker 3: because I was looking.
Speaker 4: And it's because of my father.
Speaker 3: I was looking, you know, because of his spirituality led
Speaker 3: me into search for my spirituality.
Speaker 4: And so for me, I was with past.
Speaker 3: My ego of trying are thinking about are putting that
Speaker 3: pressure and myself to live up to the legacyr to
Speaker 3: make my own name or make my own way.
Speaker 4: I don't need to make my own way. I just
Speaker 4: need to be myself.
Speaker 3: That will that will solve all the problem that I
Speaker 3: will solve the problem that people is asking a question about.
Speaker 4: I don't need to like try to do it. I
Speaker 4: just need to be true.
Speaker 3: And then that that is what that's is, how it
Speaker 3: really is, and I also need to accept, and I
Speaker 3: do accept.
Speaker 4: That my father is a part of me.
Speaker 3: There's gonna be similarities, there's gonna be things that is like,
Speaker 3: you know, it's like Bob, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3: So we're not trying to this this this stands to
Speaker 3: ourself from him in that way either. So there's no
Speaker 3: that's suld that doesn't exist because I don't want to
Speaker 3: distance self from him because I am a part of him.
Speaker 4: Anyway.
Speaker 3: You cannot do that. He has a sound car running away.
Speaker 3: You're running away, but you can't run away from yourself,
Speaker 3: you know what I said. So that is how I
Speaker 3: That is how I really try. That is how I
Speaker 3: I when I analyze it myself after being asked that question,
Speaker 3: that is how I see myself having dealt with it
Speaker 3: in that way, you know.
Speaker 1: And yeah, yeah, no that's beautifully but yeah, well thank you, Ziggy.
Speaker 1: I think we have some questions. Ted is that right?
Speaker 1: But this is like I said, the book, The book
Speaker 1: was so lovely and took me back to so many
Speaker 1: kind of wonderful memories of that era in Jamaica and
Speaker 1: at a real thrill to talk to you about.
Speaker 5: It me too, same thing, all right, Thank you, Malcolm.
Speaker 5: The first question, Ziggy is have you been to Ethiopia
Speaker 5: and can you say something about your connection and your
Speaker 5: father's connection to Ethiopia.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we were in Ethiopia years back to celebrate I
Speaker 3: think it was a sixtieth or one of those birthdays above.
Speaker 3: Because obviously Ethiopia and it's history, we found a strong
Speaker 3: connection to the Rastafari culture. It's a deep story because
Speaker 3: as and I've probably catt it shot living in Jamaica
Speaker 3: during the times of after independence or you know where
Speaker 3: supposedly everywhere or whatever, the Christian faith and the faith
Speaker 3: that was forced upon us by the colonists was something
Speaker 3: that a sector of you know, Jamaican started to turn against, like,
Speaker 3: you know, this is a slave master thing.
Speaker 4: You know, white God.
Speaker 3: Why Jesus is a white guy with blue eyes and
Speaker 3: blah blah blah.
Speaker 4: Whereas who do we identify with?
Speaker 3: And so Marcus Gather really started the whole conversation and
Speaker 3: this and and said some stuff. You know, when Marcus
Speaker 3: that all black thing and the black oe and you know,
Speaker 3: your black identity, that was a strong inspiration. And then
Speaker 3: when Rastafari start using the same Bible that was given
Speaker 3: to them by the colonists to now interpret it in
Speaker 3: a way that put an emphasis on this king in
Speaker 3: Ethiopia as the real as the comment of another christ
Speaker 3: like individual in that philosophy. In that in that idea,
Speaker 3: a lot of people in Jamaica found are real independence,
Speaker 3: a full break from the colonialist not only the political independence,
Speaker 3: but the mental independence. And that was the rise of
Speaker 3: the Rastafarire culture and the connection with each opera with
Speaker 3: this king, who within the Bible is still represented because
Speaker 3: he is a lineage of King Solomon, and in the
Speaker 3: Bible say he will come again with the name King
Speaker 3: of Kings Ladah, lad.
Speaker 4: Can canna travel Judah.
Speaker 3: And this was the title that this man, this manner
Speaker 3: has And so that strong connection to Ethiopia is fort
Speaker 3: to that because Exodus in a barbad alum called Exodus,
Speaker 3: and Exodus obviously is a relation to the struggle of
Speaker 3: the israel people coming over of Egypt. And so we
Speaker 3: are a strong connection with that whole thing, with David
Speaker 3: and Salomon, and so Rasta far I come through that
Speaker 3: connection with its last I as I descend that of
Speaker 3: Solomon and Sotopia. Ittopia was a big It was like
Speaker 3: Jerusalem or Mecca, or whatever. You know that was Ethop
Speaker 3: was like that for for Rastafari culture.
Speaker 5: So your siblings have crafted their own music careers. The
Speaker 5: question or asks what is the relationship between your siblings
Speaker 5: both musically and and how you relate to each other today?
Speaker 3: So we grew up, all right, So we grew up,
Speaker 3: let's come back, or we grew now because it's very
Speaker 3: important because all right, my father was married to my mother,
Speaker 3: but he had children of a wed right because obviously
Speaker 3: the wed like thing is a colonial thing, and we
Speaker 3: don't deal with colonial things, you know, we are free
Speaker 3: or whatever. So that was my father's you know philosophy.
Speaker 3: After you learn things, they need us free yourself anyway.
Speaker 3: But so we always grew up.
Speaker 4: You know, when my.
Speaker 3: Father would take us to visit, like I'm the oldest son, right,
Speaker 3: so he would take me and sometimes my brother Stephen.
Speaker 3: You know there's a new there was a new baby
Speaker 3: or a new you know. He would drive us to
Speaker 3: the house where my brother, my other brother was who
Speaker 3: was not of my mother, and you know, he would
Speaker 3: visit and we would meet you came on here, meet
Speaker 3: Robbie and meet Rowan or whoever it was. And my
Speaker 3: mother now which is the most important part of this
Speaker 3: was always she was like the mother of all of them,
Speaker 3: like she was the mother of the children who she
Speaker 3: wasn't the mother of basically, so everybody would come to us,
Speaker 3: and you know, my mother would be the one who
Speaker 3: kind of take care of children, whether it was his
Speaker 3: child or not.
Speaker 4: And she is the one whenever.
Speaker 3: She never taught us to like be like vindictive our
Speaker 3: head for our reasentful of my father or of the
Speaker 3: other children. In no way, we were just one family.
Speaker 3: So that's all we that's the lesson we have learned.
Speaker 3: Nobody nobody told us that you shouldn't like that guy
Speaker 3: because he's not your mother's son.
Speaker 4: We never learned that. So that's all we still are today.
Speaker 3: We get together every now and again, but we have
Speaker 3: such a strong connection that we don't have that emotion,
Speaker 3: that deep emotional sadness are like oh I missed my thinger,
Speaker 3: oh my brother or something like that.
Speaker 4: You know, we never grew up that way.
Speaker 3: We grew up a little bit let's emotional, I would say,
Speaker 3: So we don't have that in us. But we do
Speaker 3: have a connection and I love for each other and
Speaker 3: I respect for each other. We never fight each other
Speaker 3: whenever you know, we'll understand each other, and everybody understand
Speaker 3: each other. So that's how we live musically. Me and
Speaker 3: my brother Steve, and we share a lot of music
Speaker 3: them man. Steve is the one who nurtured they man.
Speaker 3: We nurture each other music basically each of us. I
Speaker 3: helped Steve when he was young, Steve his younger brother,
Speaker 3: and we just keep nurturing each other.
Speaker 4: So that's how it is.
Speaker 5: A final question has to do and there are several
Speaker 5: people who ask questions about musical collaboration. Is there anyone
Speaker 5: you would have liked to see your father have collaborated
Speaker 5: with that he did not get to And how do
Speaker 5: you feel about musical collaborations?
Speaker 4: Who would you like to collaborate with?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 3: Musical collaboration is a good thing, right In some ways
Speaker 3: it is expanding each of the artists's reach to other audiences,
Speaker 3: which is good. It is showing a true example of
Speaker 3: unification in a way where it can be two different
Speaker 3: types of music blending together to bring to make something new.
Speaker 3: I'm a very shy person, so I don't like to
Speaker 3: ask people for a thing. I don't really like to
Speaker 3: ask people, you know, like hey, can you do this?
Speaker 4: You know?
Speaker 3: So I'm very shy like that, But for some reason
Speaker 3: this year, during the COVID thing, I've done the most
Speaker 3: collaborations I've ever done in ten years, which is very strange.
Speaker 3: It's a very interesting time for me. And how those
Speaker 3: come about, Well, the first colors that I did last
Speaker 3: year was from my kids album, and I think when
Speaker 3: I the children music, I find it's a have a
Speaker 3: different state of when I do the other type my
Speaker 3: other music.
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 3: Somehow I feel more more comfortable with asking somebody to
Speaker 3: do some for children music, and it has something to
Speaker 3: do with that we have a charitable element to it,
Speaker 3: and so I'm much more comfortable doing that.
Speaker 4: So I did.
Speaker 3: I did a few big collaborations with Ben Cheryl Crow,
Speaker 3: Alanis Morissett, Angelie Kid, Joe, tom Morello, Busta Rhymes. So
Speaker 3: my kids album other like a bog of collaboration, which
Speaker 3: we really enjoy doing. And how I work with collaboration
Speaker 3: is that we have a connection. It can just be
Speaker 3: like a corporate deal, it can be like, you know,
Speaker 3: just have a contractual relationship with it has to be
Speaker 3: something real, and that is why I haven't done a
Speaker 3: lot of collaboration, but a lot of these artists that
Speaker 3: are on that album I've done for years. We've done
Speaker 3: music together. You know, we talk and we text her
Speaker 3: or whatever. So that's how I like to do collaborations.
Speaker 4: For Bob. I can't respect late and that I do.
Speaker 4: I don't want to spect it.
Speaker 3: And that Bob, you know, he was in a collaborative band,
Speaker 3: the way as he collaborated Petere and Bonnie and I
Speaker 3: know Steven and that gentleman stage. I think the collaboration
Speaker 3: and there was also what's his name came back? See
Speaker 3: what's the beatle of guy name? George Harrison. So I
Speaker 3: feel like bob collaboration collaborational spirit was one where if
Speaker 3: he was on stage and somebody wanted to come up,
Speaker 3: he would welcome them up, collabor He's a he's a
Speaker 3: social person, come on up and seeing don't I'm not
Speaker 3: sure about record and I don't know about that, and
Speaker 3: there's no way I can't imagine it.
Speaker 4: I can't respect it on that.
Speaker 5: Well, thanks for joining us, Ziggy Marley, and thank you
Speaker 5: Malcolm glad Well for chatting with Ziggy.
Speaker 4: All right, malcom times man, take care see if guys.
Speaker 1: Pleasure Zicky Bye Bye.
Speaker 2: Thanks to Ziggy Marley for sharing so many fascinating details
Speaker 2: about his life with Bob.
Speaker 1: The book he.
Speaker 2: Curated, Bob Marley Portrait of the Legend, is available now
Speaker 2: and to hear a playlist of our favorite Bob and
Speaker 2: Ziggy Marley songs, check out the playlist we created at
Speaker 2: broken Record podcast dot com. Be sure to subscribe to
Speaker 2: our YouTube channel at YouTube dot com slash broken Record Podcast,
Speaker 2: where you can find extended cuts of new and old episodes.
Speaker 2: You can follow us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken
Speaker 2: Record is produced to help from Leah Rose, Jason Gambrel,
Speaker 2: Martin Gonzalez, Eric Sandler, and Jennifer Sanchez, with engineer and
Speaker 2: help from Nick Chafey. Our executive producer is Mei Lobel.
Speaker 2: Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries and he
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Speaker 2: us on your podcast app Our theme musics by Kenny Beats.
Speaker 2: I'm justin Richmond, Peace
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