Speaker 1: Look for your children's eyes, and you will discover the
Speaker 1: true magic of a forest. Find a forest near you
Speaker 1: and start exploring it. Discover the forest dot org. Brought
Speaker 1: to you by the United States Forest Service and the
Speaker 1: AD Council. M Hey, Elizabeth, you're the co host of
Speaker 1: that new podcast, Ridiculous Crime. Why yes, I am You
Speaker 1: know what's ridiculous? Yeah? Carpeting in kitchens and bathrooms? Oh wow,
Speaker 1: you are good. But you know what's also ridiculous? A
Speaker 1: sixteen year old who breaks into a car dealership and
Speaker 1: steals guy theories Lamborghini. What yes to impress a girl?
Speaker 1: I'll tell you all about it on Ridiculous Crime, our
Speaker 1: podcast about absurd and outrageous capers, heist and cons It's
Speaker 1: always murder free and ridiculous. Listen to Ridiculous Crime on
Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
Speaker 1: get your podcasts. On the Art of Accomplishment podcast. We
Speaker 1: love anxiety, anger, sadness, and selfishness. Most people do everything
Speaker 1: they can to get rid of these emotions, but nothing
Speaker 1: makes them go away. We, however, welcome them because they
Speaker 1: give us a healthy advantage if we know how to
Speaker 1: interpret their signals. Listen to the Art of Accomplishment podcast
Speaker 1: on the I Heart Radio, Apple Apple Podcasts or wherever
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts to understand yourself and be who
Speaker 1: you were meant to be. I didn't set out to
Speaker 1: immerse myself in the murky realm of art fraud. In
Speaker 1: two thousand and ten, I found myself waging legal war
Speaker 1: with a dealer who sold me a painting that wasn't
Speaker 1: quite right, as they say in the art world. As
Speaker 1: fate would have it, my story was unfolding just as
Speaker 1: the Knodler Gallery scandal was taking center stage under intense
Speaker 1: scrutiny from the press. As an actor, I'm always looking
Speaker 1: for what defines a character. All con artists have their
Speaker 1: own definitive markings, and Friedman and Gupira Rosalees presented themselves
Speaker 1: as courtly, almost academic, Yet behind their poise and professional demeanor,
Speaker 1: I always sensed an undertone of loneliness, even despair. To
Speaker 1: my surprise, these same traits are evident in both our
Speaker 1: stories in this final episode of the season. Art fraud
Speaker 1: is an ever present phenomenon. Not long ago, Intego Philbrick,
Speaker 1: a dapper, young London dealer, managed to steal some seventy
Speaker 1: million dollars from his friends and colleagues by selling fractional
Speaker 1: shares of paintings than trading those shares like monopoly cards.
Speaker 1: Oftentimes pieces of one painting would be sold entirely twice
Speaker 1: over in what amounted to a sort of art world
Speaker 1: Ponzi scheme. Intego was brilliant, says his friend Kenny Shackter,
Speaker 1: a droll and beloved columnist of the contemporary art market.
Speaker 1: Even more than like Gogozian or some other dealers, he
Speaker 1: could tell you the difference between a two million dollar
Speaker 1: Christopher Wall painting and a two point two million He
Speaker 1: would really have a cabal of people in Ago that
Speaker 1: he would sell work to, and then he would resell
Speaker 1: it amongst those participants, unwittingly that we're buying and selling
Speaker 1: art through him. Shackter lost one point seven five million dollars.
Speaker 1: When Philbrick vanished, only to be arrested on an island
Speaker 1: off the eastern coast of Australia, Kenny was left to
Speaker 1: wonder what had motivated his friend to commit such egregious
Speaker 1: acts of fraud, just as I had wondered about my dealer,
Speaker 1: Mary Boone, I suspect the motivation is almost always universal greed.
Speaker 1: We will get into my sordid story in a bit,
Speaker 1: but first I want to tell you the story of
Speaker 1: artist Robert Indiana, creator of the iconic love sculpture. The
Speaker 1: whole world knows those four letters to over two that
Speaker 1: spelled love with its oh at a debonair slant. Long ago.
Speaker 1: Indiana had lived with artist Ellsworth Kelly on Cowenty's Slip,
Speaker 1: the Artist's Wharf in Lower Manhattan. But in the early
Speaker 1: eighties he'd come to the coast of Maine and never left.
Speaker 1: His home was a rambling Victorian lodge hall on the
Speaker 1: scruffy island of vinel Haven, about halfway up the coast
Speaker 1: of May near Rockland. There his career had stalled for
Speaker 1: Indiana refused to trademark or copyright any of his work
Speaker 1: and let tacky commercial spinoffs of love define him. By
Speaker 1: the end of the seventies, he had moved out of
Speaker 1: New York City, moved to Maine, and moved to vinyl Haven, Maine,
Speaker 1: which is an island an hour off the coast that
Speaker 1: you can only get to by ferry or small engine plane,
Speaker 1: and so he was as isolated as they can get.
Speaker 1: That's Luke Nikos, the lawyer who represented Ann Friedman in
Speaker 1: the trial, and now found himself fighting a perhaps more
Speaker 1: noble campaign on behalf of the iconic artist Robert Indiana.
Speaker 1: He was gone as far as the art world was concerned.
Speaker 1: Throughout the eighties. He made works here and there, but
Speaker 1: he wasn't a superstar anymore. He wasn't recognized, and by
Speaker 1: the end of the eighties he might as well not
Speaker 1: even have existed in terms of his presence in the
Speaker 1: fine art world. That was when an art advisor named
Speaker 1: Simon Salama Carrow started knocking. Salama Carro had seen his
Speaker 1: work and was interested in meeting with Indiana to talk
Speaker 1: with him about rejuvenating his career. He saw a path.
Speaker 1: He saw a path of reintroducing Indiana's work to our historians,
Speaker 1: to museums. He saw a path of getting the infringing
Speaker 1: use of Indiana's images under control. No more shoes, no
Speaker 1: more trinkets, no more use that was outside of what
Speaker 1: Simon thought would really bring the brand back. Salamcarrow steered
Speaker 1: his work away from schlocky spinoffs to sculptures in what
Speaker 1: Indiana came to call admiringly the noble materials. He also
Speaker 1: extricated the artist from an unpaid six hundred thousand dollars
Speaker 1: in taxes and leans on his home. Such guidance didn't
Speaker 1: come for free. Salamcarro worked for the Morgan Art Foundation
Speaker 1: for profit that held the rights to produce Indiana's best
Speaker 1: known works, but Indiana could see it had promise Morgan
Speaker 1: would take the copy rights in the trademarks, would give
Speaker 1: Indiana of revenue from the use of those images so
Speaker 1: it would be a split between them, and Morgan would
Speaker 1: monitor and clean up the market for Indiana's images. It
Speaker 1: went all over the world and started bringing infringement suits
Speaker 1: season desist letters, and ultimately what that did was it
Speaker 1: created the very clear message that Indiana's imagery could not
Speaker 1: be exploited. At the same time, Morrigan put millions and
Speaker 1: millions and millions of dollars of funding behind the fabrication
Speaker 1: of indiana sculptures, which are extremely expensive to fabricate, difficult
Speaker 1: to fabricate. You need real facilities that Indiana did not have.
Speaker 1: Ten years later, or so fifteen years the Whitney Museum
Speaker 1: in New York City had a major retrospective of Indiana's work,
Speaker 1: and he was back on the map again extraordinarily successful.
Speaker 1: And then what happened? Michael Mackenzie came into the picture
Speaker 1: in two thousand eight. Advisor Michael Mackenzie had a brilliant idea,
Speaker 1: why not change Indiana's love to hope and make it
Speaker 1: the banner for the surging Obama presidential campaign. As Mackenzie
Speaker 1: deepened his relationship with Indiana over hope, he began expanding
Speaker 1: Hope prints on canvas, more Hope sculptures, more colors of hope. Expand, Expand, Expand,
Speaker 1: and then he bought a studio on Vinyl even near
Speaker 1: Indiana to have better access to him. Soon, other operators
Speaker 1: began swooping in. I spoke with Bob Keys, a longtime
Speaker 1: reporter for the Portland Press Herald who just published a
Speaker 1: fascinating book titled The Isolation Artist, Scandal, Deception, and the
Speaker 1: Last Days of Robert Indiana. Keys described the circle of
Speaker 1: operators well. Jim Brown is a long time attorney in
Speaker 1: Rock and Maine. He became much more closely involved in
Speaker 1: Indiana's affairs and in twos sixteen helped change Indiana's will
Speaker 1: that made him the executor of the estate. And Jamie Thomas,
Speaker 1: who was then an island caretaker became much more involved
Speaker 1: in Indiana's personal affairs, and he became the power of
Speaker 1: attorney as well as the healthcare power of attorney. And
Speaker 1: from that point on UH indianas certainly lost control of
Speaker 1: much of the legal and professional aspects of his life
Speaker 1: in terms of his legal representation, and Jamie Thomas was
Speaker 1: authorized at that point to make business decisions for him
Speaker 1: as power of attorney. That's when we began to see
Speaker 1: much more work attributed to Mackenzie start to come out
Speaker 1: of the UH Indiana studio at a time when Indiana
Speaker 1: was definitely in failing health and had not made new
Speaker 1: work in quite a while. Now, is that to say
Speaker 1: that that it looked to you and others as if
Speaker 1: what Mackenzie and um Thomas we're doing, and perhaps Brandon
Speaker 1: as well, was forging. Uh forging is a legal term.
Speaker 1: I think what they were doing was pushing the boundaries
Speaker 1: of what was authentic work. The work was suspicious right
Speaker 1: away in the eyes of many people who knew it.
Speaker 1: It didn't seem authentic. My reporting suggests that Indiana probably
Speaker 1: was aware of its creation but not involved with it
Speaker 1: and looked the other way, and that was fairly common
Speaker 1: during that point in his life. And what did it
Speaker 1: mean that Thomas became beneficiary I guess of the estate.
Speaker 1: I mean he had nothing to do with making art.
Speaker 1: Why was he written into the will? Thomas was written
Speaker 1: into the will because Indiana at some point surrounded himself
Speaker 1: with people from the vinyl Haven community who were loyal
Speaker 1: to him, and Thomas was in that camp. Thomas had
Speaker 1: a relationship with Robert Indiana that went back many decades.
Speaker 1: There is a lot of debate among people who worked
Speaker 1: with Indiana how they were, but it is a fact.
Speaker 1: At his eightieth birthday party in two thousand and eight,
Speaker 1: Indiana invited Jamie Thomas to it, and that was a
Speaker 1: pretty personal affair, so they definitely had a friendship. Jamie
Speaker 1: Thomas ultimately convinced Indiana to make him the power of attorney.
Speaker 1: And then we see Thomas's text messages with Mackenzie up
Speaker 1: until the point Indiana died, where they were texting back
Speaker 1: and forth about works that they would create together. You
Speaker 1: can envision the text W I N E and and
Speaker 1: so forth and so on, stacked four letter words. They
Speaker 1: were texting back and forth that they should create on
Speaker 1: their own while Indiana was on his deathbed, and so Mackenzie,
Speaker 1: deep in that relationship, built it with Thomas. Thomas was
Speaker 1: on the inside. Thomas became involved in Indiana's life at
Speaker 1: a time when his health was failing, and many people
Speaker 1: on the island saw him as coming in to help
Speaker 1: get Indiana out of some more trouble. But there's no
Speaker 1: question that in so doing he also isolated Indiana from
Speaker 1: all of his art world contacts who could no longer
Speaker 1: reach him an interview him and talk about things. And
Speaker 1: at the same time, there was a large body of
Speaker 1: work coming out of his studio and it had the
Speaker 1: mark of Mackenzie all over it. Fine art friends like
Speaker 1: legendary Dartmouth art professor John Wilmerding started knocking on the
Speaker 1: door of Indiana's Vinyl Haven home and getting no response.
Speaker 1: John Wilmerging made at least an annual trip to see
Speaker 1: Robert Indiana at the Star of Hope every summer. I
Speaker 1: believe the last time he saw Indiana was in the
Speaker 1: fall or late summer of umerd made a comment to
Speaker 1: Indiana that it sort of looks like the School of Indiana,
Speaker 1: and Indiana sort of shrugged and said, I guess in
Speaker 1: some ways that it is. Wilmerding never saw him again.
Speaker 1: He tried to reach him, He sent emails that were
Speaker 1: not returned. He had ters responses from others in the
Speaker 1: Indiana camp and basically was told you're no longer going
Speaker 1: to be able to see him, and other people were
Speaker 1: peeled away as well. By early two thousand eighteen, attorney
Speaker 1: Luke Nikos, representing the Morgan Art Foundation, alleged that the
Speaker 1: trio of art publisher Michael Mackenzie, caretaker Jamie Thomas, and
Speaker 1: local business partner James W. Brannan had taken control of
Speaker 1: the eighty eight year old artist. Indiana lived in an
Speaker 1: old Mason's home. Is a very old home, big beautiful home,
Speaker 1: tons of space, but also in need of significant repair
Speaker 1: that wasn't kept up over time, and so Indiana's bedroom
Speaker 1: was on the top floor, and near the end of
Speaker 1: his life, they took the staircase that went from his
Speaker 1: bedroom out of the house down to his yard out
Speaker 1: of the house that completely removed it. We were told
Speaker 1: by studio assistants that the locks were changed so they
Speaker 1: couldn't get in to help Indiana, that windows were boarded
Speaker 1: up so that he couldn't yell out or reach out
Speaker 1: for help, and so this was total isolation in the
Speaker 1: extreme to prevent Indiana from reaching out to the people
Speaker 1: he knew could help him out of this situation. There
Speaker 1: was more. Luke learned the Trio had taken over Indiana's
Speaker 1: email account as Voicemail and had completely controlled every aspect
Speaker 1: of his life for the last several years. Not only
Speaker 1: did Morgan allege Jamie Thomas stole money from Indiana and
Speaker 1: diverted opportunities from Indiana, but Morgan alleged that Jamie Thomas
Speaker 1: and Michael Mackenzie had conspired to forge works in Indiana's name.
Speaker 1: The trio had even stolen images that the Morrigan Art
Speaker 1: Foundation owned and sold those images as Indiana's even though
Speaker 1: they weren't. We found a Instagram post a video of
Speaker 1: someone signing in mackenzie studio Robert Indiana works with an
Speaker 1: auto pen or a ghost writer, and in the middle
Speaker 1: of the video, the studio assistant said for jury and
Speaker 1: posted that Mackenzie her boss, was forcing her to forge
Speaker 1: paintings and if the police came, she would quote unquote
Speaker 1: sing like a bird. And so we we filed this
Speaker 1: lawsuit alleging that Mackenzie had forged these paintings. The very
Speaker 1: next day, in May of two thousand eighteen, Indiana died.
Speaker 1: Despite Indiana's death, the case forged ahead. We jumped into
Speaker 1: discovery in the case, got more information related to the
Speaker 1: works that were being made. We have witnesses, We took testimony,
Speaker 1: and then throughout the case Michael Mackenzie testified that he
Speaker 1: had absolutely no more works by Indiana in his possession.
Speaker 1: He wasn't making any works. The entire business was shut
Speaker 1: down in that respect. Two weeks ago, I inspected Michael
Speaker 1: Mackenzie's property to look at the works that were on
Speaker 1: the property, and it turns out there were over a
Speaker 1: thousand works on the property that we're supposedly by Robert
Speaker 1: Indiana stencils that he was using with certain years two
Speaker 1: thousand fifteen, two thousand seventeen stamped on the back of
Speaker 1: the paintings that were used as Indiana signature. So I
Speaker 1: went to the judge and I asked for more discovery
Speaker 1: given that we had been denied information, and then was
Speaker 1: allowed to go out again and inspect the entire studio.
Speaker 1: And when I was there, I cataloged the entire blueprint
Speaker 1: of how Michael McKenzie operated the catalog. Resume of Robert
Speaker 1: Indiana's works was tabbed with post it notes. He had
Speaker 1: a full composition notebook of drawings of Indiana works he
Speaker 1: was creating. And so we went back to the court
Speaker 1: and said he's forging works. This is the blueprint, this
Speaker 1: is the forger's den. I received a phone call from
Speaker 1: one of Michael mackenzie's now former friends and what he
Speaker 1: said was two things. Number one, Michael Mackenzie still forging works.
Speaker 1: He just forged a hundred and fifty in his studio.
Speaker 1: Here's a picture. He's stamping the back of those works
Speaker 1: with two thousand fifteen stencils, with two thousand seventeen stencils.
Speaker 1: He's selling them for a lot of money all over
Speaker 1: the world. And production was still ramping up when you
Speaker 1: came to the studio under court order allowed to inspect
Speaker 1: his property to see what he had created. In the
Speaker 1: middle of the day and night before you arrived, he
Speaker 1: shipped seven truckloads of art off the property into a
Speaker 1: storage facility to prevent you from seeing what he had done.
Speaker 1: Luke got a declaration from Mackenzie under oath detailing all
Speaker 1: of this, detailing the forgeries he was making, detailing how
Speaker 1: he was using the stencils, detailing Mackenzie's proclivities toward guns
Speaker 1: and threats, and the way he deals with people in
Speaker 1: his workplace. And so we got that declaration under oath,
Speaker 1: went back to the judge, and the judge is now
Speaker 1: opening up the whole other phase in the case for
Speaker 1: violation of all of these discovery orders that she's issued.
Speaker 1: In the summer of Luke Nicholas demonstrated the automatic signature
Speaker 1: machine that signed Indiana Prince and showed the tropes of forgeries.
Speaker 1: With that, three of the parties settled, the Morgan Art Foundation,
Speaker 1: the artist's Star of Hope Foundation, and the estate itself.
Speaker 1: Perhaps now top quality Indiana works could be sold again.
Speaker 1: Also participating in the settlement where Jamie Thomas, the island
Speaker 1: caretaker and Jim Brannan the lawyer, left out was Michael Mackenzie,
Speaker 1: who said he would work with both parties but imply
Speaker 1: ide the wrangling wasn't done yet. Quote I can take
Speaker 1: this apart, he warned his partners. In The New York Times.
Speaker 1: The terms were secret, which struck many as odd since
Speaker 1: the Star of Hope is a nonprofit foundation. There are
Speaker 1: many people who believe that settlement needs to be made
Speaker 1: public because the Star of Hope Foundation is a public
Speaker 1: entity in Maine and it's UH the taxpayers and their
Speaker 1: citizens and residents of Maine have vested interest in the
Speaker 1: outcome of it, and it's worth maybe a million hundred
Speaker 1: million dollars the estate, and UH, as taxpayers, we have
Speaker 1: a right to know at least what it says and
Speaker 1: and who's going to benefit from the estate and where
Speaker 1: the artwork is going to go. Indiana wanted his artwork
Speaker 1: on view and for public consumption. That's what he cared
Speaker 1: most about. What I'm struck by in this story is
Speaker 1: the efforts Indiana made to get his name back and
Speaker 1: to get the valuation of his work back. And he's successful,
Speaker 1: but then he runs into these people and it just
Speaker 1: blows up in his face. Ultimately, this is the story
Speaker 1: of a brilliant but lonely man whose art may never
Speaker 1: have filled the whole in his heart. Certainly he never
Speaker 1: had another long term partner after Ellsworth Kelly asked for
Speaker 1: the Vinyl Haven community. Despite welcoming the great artist in
Speaker 1: early the local fishermen and their families had cut Indiana
Speaker 1: off amid shocking charges. Indiana had been arrested for solicitation
Speaker 1: of prostitution and stood accused of paying minors for sex.
Speaker 1: One local boy testified that he was twelve when the
Speaker 1: abuse began and that it had continued for six years.
Speaker 1: Another accuser also came forward a legal proceeding A quick
Speaker 1: did Indiana of the charges. In Indiana said he felt
Speaker 1: lucky to be acquitted, a sentiment that left the Islanders outraged.
Speaker 1: I feel that Indiana brought on a lot of the
Speaker 1: problems himself because of his inability to resolve the conflicts.
Speaker 1: He suffered from a lot of issues in terms of
Speaker 1: his youth and his lack of trust and his inability
Speaker 1: to let people close to him, and that really did
Speaker 1: affect him at the end. I feel sorry for him
Speaker 1: because of his lack of personal tools that one needs
Speaker 1: to navigate the world. He didn't have a healthy youth
Speaker 1: grown up, and he never figured out how to live
Speaker 1: in the world in a partnered sort of way. All
Speaker 1: he was left within the end was hope. After the break,
Speaker 1: Michael Shnayerson and I will talk about Mary Boone Ross
Speaker 1: Lechner and a painting I loved and finally was able
Speaker 1: to purchase sort of Hey, it's your girl, Emily Curl
Speaker 1: from My Heart Radio. And whether you work, create, or play,
Speaker 1: Logitech is designing products for you to unleash your creativity
Speaker 1: and defy the logic of the past. They're on a
Speaker 1: mission to inspire the next generation of creators as they
Speaker 1: define the new logic of tomorrow. Build a podcast, start
Speaker 1: a live stream, gain a following. The options are endless
Speaker 1: and how cool is this? You can work from virtually
Speaker 1: anywhere on the beach in the air. I know my
Speaker 1: family and Georgia will be especially excited that I can
Speaker 1: take more frequent trips. So with Logitechs range with superior quality,
Speaker 1: beautifully designed and precisely engineered products, you can follow your
Speaker 1: passions and define the new logic of tomorrow. Logitech defy logic.
Speaker 1: From more information, visit logitech dot com slash to by Logic.
Speaker 1: Adoption of teams from foster care is a topic not
Speaker 1: enough people know about, and we're here to change that.
Speaker 1: I'm April Dinuit, the host of the new podcast Navigating Adoption,
Speaker 1: presented by adopt Us Kids. Each episode brings you compelling,
Speaker 1: real life adoption stories told by the families that lived
Speaker 1: them with commentary from experts. Visit adopt us Kids dot org,
Speaker 1: slash podcast, or subscribe to Navigating Adoption, presented by adopt
Speaker 1: us Kids, brought to you by the U. S. Department
Speaker 1: of Health and Human Services, Administration for Children and Families
Speaker 1: and the ACT Council. What grows in the forest trees? Sure? No.
Speaker 1: What else grows in the forest, Our imagination, our sense
Speaker 1: of wonder and our family bonds grow too, because when
Speaker 1: we disconnect from this and connect with this, we reconnect
Speaker 1: with each other. The forest is closer than you think.
Speaker 1: Find a forest near you and start explain. Or I
Speaker 1: discovered the fourth dot org brought to you by the
Speaker 1: United States Fourth Service and the ad Council. In the
Speaker 1: ninety movie gaslight Ingrid Bergmann found yourself wondering why her
Speaker 1: possessions are moving and vanishing? Is she losing her mind?
Speaker 1: I thought about that movie, Alec, when I first heard
Speaker 1: about your own personal brush with art fraud. So how
Speaker 1: did that happen? Well, you know, for a long time
Speaker 1: I had walked around with this mailing card that I
Speaker 1: got from Mary Boone and Calorie selling a painting by
Speaker 1: Ross Bleckner, and I had it with me and you know,
Speaker 1: kind of stared at it every now and then thought, Wow,
Speaker 1: I wonder where that painting is. And I mean I
Speaker 1: I wasn't someone who was keen on researching that and
Speaker 1: chasing that down. First of all, let's talk about Bleckner
Speaker 1: a minute and sort of put him in context. He
Speaker 1: had come up in the early eighties in a group
Speaker 1: of young, very dramatic artists represented by the Mary Boot Gallery.
Speaker 1: They were doing something new, you know, breaking out of
Speaker 1: abstract and minimalist art that frankly most people were tired of.
Speaker 1: And Mary saw that the market was ready for big,
Speaker 1: bold paintings with a lot of color paintings you can understand.
Speaker 1: So by the early nineteen eighties she had the hottest
Speaker 1: gallery in New York. Perhaps not by coincidence, her artists
Speaker 1: were mostly male, handsome, very dramatic. They were artists who
Speaker 1: actually looked and acted like artists. Painters like Julian Schnabel
Speaker 1: with his broken plate paintings, Eric Fishel with his paintings
Speaker 1: that showed a dark side of suburban life, and David
Speaker 1: Sally who painted sensuous women among various symbols, and finally
Speaker 1: Ross Buckner. So what was it about Ross Bleckner that
Speaker 1: you liked, you know, more than those other artists. I
Speaker 1: think just the colors. I mean, you know, my own
Speaker 1: personal taste, you know. I think that picture just kind
Speaker 1: of cast a little tiny spell on me, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean. And I and I, like I said,
Speaker 1: I wound up carrying that in a sheaf of papers
Speaker 1: that I had, that a little binder. One day, as
Speaker 1: luck would have it, I met Ross and a bunch
Speaker 1: of other people for Ross's birthday, which coincided with another
Speaker 1: opening he had at Mary Boom, and I went and
Speaker 1: saw a painting I liked. I had to hustle out
Speaker 1: the door because we relate to another appointment. I came
Speaker 1: back the next day that painting was sold. You went
Speaker 1: into that event one night, I think you said in
Speaker 1: two right. We went to the gallery because it was
Speaker 1: Ross's birthday, and we went to the opening, and then
Speaker 1: we were hustled out of the opening very quickly. I
Speaker 1: was like, well, I'd like to spend some time or
Speaker 1: look at some of the paintings, and they were like,
Speaker 1: what you know, they weren't there to buy any of
Speaker 1: Ross's paintings. His friends. So I came back the next
Speaker 1: day and I said to Mary, that's the painting I want.
Speaker 1: She said, well, that's sold, And then you realized, well,
Speaker 1: of course it did, and she said, when you come
Speaker 1: in and we can talk, I go to a computer
Speaker 1: with her and I take her to see a mirror
Speaker 1: the painting that i'd refer to in the in the
Speaker 1: mailer that I carried around the Holy Grail here if
Speaker 1: you will, of Ross's paintings to me, I said that picture,
Speaker 1: I said, where is that? She goes, I think I
Speaker 1: can get that for you. I think that guy would
Speaker 1: sell that painting. So that was the picture that was
Speaker 1: literally the image that you had had on your card
Speaker 1: that you were walking around with. That was the painting
Speaker 1: see and mirror from She said, I know who bought that,
Speaker 1: And she said, I think I can get it fair.
Speaker 1: I presume you thought, well that could be expensive if
Speaker 1: she's going to persuade someone to sell the painting back
Speaker 1: to you, But you said, go ahead and try your luck.
Speaker 1: You know, Mary, if you can do it, great, and
Speaker 1: only the next day, if not even that day, she
Speaker 1: called you back to say what she said, I got
Speaker 1: the painting. Yeah, Now the paintings that were contemporary, the
Speaker 1: paintings that were from that gallery exhibit in and around
Speaker 1: that time we're in the high five figures. She then
Speaker 1: came to me and said, I can get you this
Speaker 1: painting for a hundred and ninety thousand dollars, and it
Speaker 1: was more than double the thousand dollars that Ross was
Speaker 1: getting for the other paintings where they were a five
Speaker 1: thousand dollar range. So what was her rationale for why
Speaker 1: you should pay you more than twice? I was buying
Speaker 1: the six painting. She was saying, how I'm buying it
Speaker 1: from this collector, and that's what he wants. He wants
Speaker 1: a hundred and nine dollars for the painting. I said, great,
Speaker 1: I'll take it. I was just completely completely overjoyed that
Speaker 1: I could get the painting. Thrilled with the opportunity he
Speaker 1: had been presented to finally own his own Holy Grail
Speaker 1: of paintings, Alec purchased Ross Buck, Nurse c and Mirror
Speaker 1: from Mary Boone for the agreed price of a hundred
Speaker 1: and ninety thousand dollars. A short time later, the painting
Speaker 1: arrived at Alex's office on the upper side, so we
Speaker 1: had them hang the painting and when they hung the painting,
Speaker 1: it reeked very strongly of some chemical like paint thinner, turpentine,
Speaker 1: some astringent kind of chemical smell like that. And then
Speaker 1: I called her and I said, that gauzy feathered effect
Speaker 1: that is on display in this painting in the mirror
Speaker 1: like no other. I mean, it's probably one of his
Speaker 1: gaussiest series of paintings, and very watery. It doesn't look
Speaker 1: like that at all. It doesn't look like that at all.
Speaker 1: And I said, what's going on? And it smells at
Speaker 1: this chemical? She said, well, we took it off the
Speaker 1: stretcher and we cleaned it because the previous owner was
Speaker 1: a heavy smoker and we wanted to clean the painting.
Speaker 1: And I thought, uh huh okay. But and and even
Speaker 1: though clean, I thought cleaning wouldn't affect the technique of
Speaker 1: the painting. It was almost like she was suggesting that
Speaker 1: the cleaning of the painting had altered the very nature
Speaker 1: of the painting. It was very bright and very vivid.
Speaker 1: It wasn't at all like the other paintings. I said,
Speaker 1: look like a bag of M and M spilled on
Speaker 1: the floor. Was very bright and very shiny. The colors
Speaker 1: weren't the same in the original sea and mirror there
Speaker 1: are really strong. The yellows are very buttery, the reds
Speaker 1: are very maroon and very burgundy and very strong. And
Speaker 1: these are my favorite colors. There's violets that are just
Speaker 1: all the haunting colors. And then the ones that he
Speaker 1: did for this picture. I mean, I I sometimes wonder
Speaker 1: if he even painted this. It was like some assistant
Speaker 1: or something, because it was really nowhere at all remotely
Speaker 1: like the original painting. And she said to me, well,
Speaker 1: we took it off the stretcher in case we had
Speaker 1: to repair some cracks and stuff. And later on I
Speaker 1: consulted with someone else who told me that's nonsense. I
Speaker 1: just find it so fascinating that, you know, you called
Speaker 1: Mary and she just had this song and dance about
Speaker 1: how it was the real painting. It was the painting
Speaker 1: that you had wanted, that you had carried around a
Speaker 1: picture of all these years. You know, she could have
Speaker 1: gone a whole other way here. She could have said,
Speaker 1: you know, I couldn't get that painting, but here's some
Speaker 1: others from the series. Well, I mean, you know, I
Speaker 1: always live inside a world of alternatives. You know, what
Speaker 1: might have happened, what choices might people have made? And
Speaker 1: one of the things that was just clear to me
Speaker 1: was if you'd come to me and said, I can't
Speaker 1: get the painting. The guy in California that owns the
Speaker 1: se in mirror, I either can't find him or he
Speaker 1: doesn't want to sell. My point is is that if
Speaker 1: she come to me and said, I'll have them paint
Speaker 1: you a copy, I'll have him paint you another in
Speaker 1: a series of these types of paintings, I would have
Speaker 1: said great. And it wasn't like I'm saying, oh, when
Speaker 1: you're gonna charge me eight dollars to like like I
Speaker 1: was obsessed about the price. The important thing is I
Speaker 1: would have accepted a copy. Had they told me it
Speaker 1: was a copy, we could have negotiated the price. But
Speaker 1: instead she didn't say it was a copy. She put
Speaker 1: the bin number of the ninet painting on the back
Speaker 1: of the painting she sold me. She put the date
Speaker 1: nine nine six on the back of the painting she
Speaker 1: sold me. All of it was just weeked of foul play,
Speaker 1: of speaking. The fact that you're handing me the painting
Speaker 1: in two thousand ten and you're putting the date nine
Speaker 1: and it wasn't the painting from nineteen ninety six, you
Speaker 1: put a fake date on there. When all this went
Speaker 1: down and she was confronted, legally, the statute of limitations
Speaker 1: had passed, but she decided to go a completely different way.
Speaker 1: She insisted that I knew it was a copy. I
Speaker 1: knew what I was buying. She had never represented to
Speaker 1: me that this was the original painting. She swore up
Speaker 1: and down that I knew I was buying a copy
Speaker 1: of C and Mirror from, not the original painting, which
Speaker 1: was not true. And the MO went back to the
Speaker 1: d A and said, she charged me. I just bought
Speaker 1: two paintings from her that were freshly made, so to speak,
Speaker 1: that were freshly baked, and they were in the high
Speaker 1: five figures. Why would I pay a hundred and nine
Speaker 1: dollars for a freshly baked Ross? Now that was exhibit A,
Speaker 1: if you will, and the other was the date and
Speaker 1: the bin number. And when this thing was on my wall,
Speaker 1: I said to myself, and again, I think it's an
Speaker 1: important point that it wasn't around me all the time
Speaker 1: I travel uptown, I go to that office, I go, oh,
Speaker 1: there it is, and I'd say, so that means Ross
Speaker 1: is a fake. And Ross I was kind of friendly
Speaker 1: with and I thought, well, this means Ross ripped me off.
Speaker 1: And I thought or not. I mean maybe Ross was
Speaker 1: told he's okay with a copy, make him a copy,
Speaker 1: and I'm gonna sell him this copy. I believe she
Speaker 1: played both of us. I believe she said Ross, he
Speaker 1: wants a copy of c and Mirrors, and she said
Speaker 1: to me, I'm going to get you the original Sea
Speaker 1: and Mirrors. He thought one thing, I thought another thing.
Speaker 1: As it turned out, that's exactly what happened. We reached
Speaker 1: out to Ross Bleckner for comment, and he was gracious
Speaker 1: enough to respond. While we don't feel comfortable reading his
Speaker 1: response verbatim, we can say that Ross's own recollection of
Speaker 1: the events is precisely what Alex expected. That is to say,
Speaker 1: Mary Boone contacted Bluckner and asked him to paint a
Speaker 1: copy of Cen Mirror for a client. He didn't hear
Speaker 1: from Mary Boone after that. Once she took possession of
Speaker 1: the painting. The moment, we subpoenaed her emails and she produced,
Speaker 1: and Ross produced a bunch of emails, and she produced
Speaker 1: almost none. And the judge said, if you don't give
Speaker 1: me these emails, if you're saying, you don't have emails
Speaker 1: of your exchange with him that discussed this early on.
Speaker 1: You know, at the onset, I was amazed at how
Speaker 1: firm the judge was and how clear of the judge was.
Speaker 1: The judge says, if you don't do this, I'm going
Speaker 1: to assume you're hiding something, I'm going to automatically assume
Speaker 1: there's something you're hiding. And they were just shrieking up
Speaker 1: and down that they couldn't wait to have that in
Speaker 1: a courtroom and overs of the stuff, and I thought, okay, okay.
Speaker 1: And then once we subpoened all of her emails to
Speaker 1: any sales of Ross Blacker, because we knew deep down
Speaker 1: inside that she didn't wake up one day and start
Speaker 1: doing this with me that day. We wanted to check
Speaker 1: and see were we in the territory of a class
Speaker 1: action suit with a grouping of people who had been
Speaker 1: treated this way in some way. And the moment we
Speaker 1: subpoenaed all of her emails to discuss that, they settled
Speaker 1: and they wrote me a check for a million dollars.
Speaker 1: I want you to tell me about going to marry
Speaker 1: Anne Bowski. You were going to see some paintings. She
Speaker 1: was going to show you a Thornton dial and what happened.
Speaker 1: That became a real turning point when I said to
Speaker 1: her that, Mary said, we took the painting off the
Speaker 1: stretcher in order to repair it and clean it. I
Speaker 1: think she said it needed to be repaired. Mary Ann said, well,
Speaker 1: that's ridiculous. I said, what do you mean? She said,
Speaker 1: she would never have taken the painting off the canvas
Speaker 1: and repaired it and cleaned it without your permission. She
Speaker 1: just took it upon herself. She's claiming to do that.
Speaker 1: We we just did that for you. And she said,
Speaker 1: it never happens that way. She said, this is an
Speaker 1: all likelihood of fake. It looks like a fake, and
Speaker 1: it smells like a fake because it is a fake.
Speaker 1: Mary Anne Bowski has been an art dealer for twenty
Speaker 1: five years. She started her first gallery and her current
Speaker 1: gallery on Two Street in New York has been opened
Speaker 1: since two thousand six. Alec visited with Marianne recently at
Speaker 1: her gallery. She recalled their original conversation about that ill
Speaker 1: fated painting. You just said, is it strange that I
Speaker 1: would have gotten, you know, a painting after I bought
Speaker 1: it and it would look different than the image that
Speaker 1: it looked like, and then was told that it was
Speaker 1: cleaned and I was like, that's definitely strange. And then
Speaker 1: we kind of continued talking about it, and I, you know,
Speaker 1: I had real empathy for you, but there was a
Speaker 1: terrible situation. But if the painting comes off the stretcher
Speaker 1: to be cleaned or repaired, that's something that you would
Speaker 1: affect the value of the painting, not necessarily. So let's
Speaker 1: say I had a Lesiu s. Gabbage. Someone came back
Speaker 1: with Alsia s. Gabbage that I sold them in two
Speaker 1: thousand one, and it had some schmutz on it. Right.
Speaker 1: What I would do is I would have a conservator
Speaker 1: look at it and recommend what needs to be done.
Speaker 1: Cann be cleaned if you need to in pain? Is
Speaker 1: there damage? Then I would call Lisa or her if
Speaker 1: I didn't know her personally, I would call Swarner and
Speaker 1: I would say I have this, and here's the situation.
Speaker 1: Does Lisa want to look at it? And she would
Speaker 1: either say yes or no, or they would say, um,
Speaker 1: you know, she'd like to fix it herself. And if
Speaker 1: she fixes it herself, it's not really going to be
Speaker 1: um any kind of diminution in value because it's her,
Speaker 1: you know, just making sure that her work is in
Speaker 1: good shape. So or if she wanted to clean it,
Speaker 1: that's not going to change anything except clean it. But
Speaker 1: if she's then said, you know there's a terror in
Speaker 1: it and it needs to be fixed, I recommend you
Speaker 1: go to so and so to fix it, because they're
Speaker 1: the best of my work. So now I have this
Speaker 1: painting that is on consignment and it's been torn and sown,
Speaker 1: and Lisa has opined on who needs to fix it,
Speaker 1: and we've gotten it fixed and we spent six thousand
Speaker 1: dollars fixing it. Whatever it is. Then when I go
Speaker 1: to offer that painting to someone, I have to tell
Speaker 1: them you can't see it, but right here, if you
Speaker 1: look on the back, I do. Yes, there's a little
Speaker 1: mark here. The artist has looked at it. The artist
Speaker 1: has approved the work that was done on it and
Speaker 1: chose the person to do it. But transparency more art
Speaker 1: fraud in a minute. Look for your children's eyes to
Speaker 1: see the true magic of a forest. It's a storybook
Speaker 1: world for them. You look and see a tree, they
Speaker 1: see the wrinkled face of a wizard with arms outstretched
Speaker 1: to the sky, they see treasure and pebbles, they see
Speaker 1: a windy path that could lead to adventure, and they
Speaker 1: see you. They're fearless. Guide. Is this fascinating world? Find
Speaker 1: a forest near you and start exploring a Discover the
Speaker 1: Forest dot Org brought to you by the United States
Speaker 1: Forest Service and the AD Council. Hey everyone, it's Bobby Brown.
Speaker 1: You might know me as the makeup artist beauty expert.
Speaker 1: You might also know me as the founder of Jones
Speaker 1: Road Beauty. But today I'm here with a brand new podcast,
Speaker 1: The Important Things. On this new podcast, I'll be joined
Speaker 1: by my co host and dear friend, international best selling
Speaker 1: author Attorney and Ted Talk along Angelie Kumar. Together, we
Speaker 1: want to answer the question how can you lead a
Speaker 1: life of fulfillment? The ongoing pandemic has given us all
Speaker 1: the opportunity to examine what really matters most to us
Speaker 1: and what brings us true contentment. Each week through candid
Speaker 1: conversations with friends, thought leaders, creators, and entrepreneurs, Bobby and
Speaker 1: I are looking for ways we can all learn to
Speaker 1: live more authentic, gratifying lives. You can look forward to
Speaker 1: learning from our amazing guests, including the incomparable Gloria steinem
Speaker 1: entrepreneur and designer, Jennifer Fisher, Senator Corey Booker, charity founder
Speaker 1: Christy Turlington Burns, and many many more. So join us
Speaker 1: every other week as we dig deep into the stuff
Speaker 1: that really matters on the important things. Listen to the
Speaker 1: important things on the I Heart radio app, Apple podcasts
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're live here
Speaker 1: outside the Perez family home, just waiting for them. And
Speaker 1: there they go, almost on time. This morning, Mom is
Speaker 1: coming out the front door strong with a double armed
Speaker 1: kid carry. Looks like Dad has the bags daughter he
Speaker 1: is bringing up the rear. Oh but the diaper bag
Speaker 1: wasn't closed. Diapers and toys are everywhere. Oh but Mom
Speaker 1: has just nailed the perfect car seat buckle for the toddler.
Speaker 1: And now the eldest daughter, who looks to be about
Speaker 1: nine or ten, has secured herself in the booster seat.
Speaker 1: Dad zips the bag clothes and they're off. But looks
Speaker 1: like Mom doesn't realize her coffee cup is still on
Speaker 1: the roof of the car and there it goes. Ah,
Speaker 1: that's a shame that mug was a fan favorite. Don't
Speaker 1: sweat the small stuff, just nailed the big stuff, like
Speaker 1: making sure your kids are buckled correctly in the right
Speaker 1: seat for their agent's eyes. Learn more n h t
Speaker 1: s A dot gov slash the Right Seat visits h
Speaker 1: s A dot gov slash the Right Seat brought to
Speaker 1: you by NITZA and the ad Council Alec. What did
Speaker 1: you think of that moment when Mary Ann first told
Speaker 1: you your treasured seat and mere painting was at all
Speaker 1: likelihood of fake Because that was really the moment. So
Speaker 1: I gather that this hits home. How did that hit
Speaker 1: you emotionally? Well, I think two things. One is, I
Speaker 1: had to kind of sort out of my head what
Speaker 1: Ross's involvement was, because I was very concerned about that
Speaker 1: in any civil litigation. Now Ross wound up giving me
Speaker 1: uh that he found up making me a fact simile
Speaker 1: of seeing mirror that I have in my home. Now
Speaker 1: I have the honest copy. I said, give me the
Speaker 1: copy of the painting that is, and then he gave
Speaker 1: me another painting to settle our dispute, if you will.
Speaker 1: You know, it's a funny situation because I mean, yes,
Speaker 1: it was a fraud, but it was a fraud enacted
Speaker 1: by the painter who painted the original. See what's funny
Speaker 1: is when in the litigation he made me the copy
Speaker 1: of C and Mirror that I have in my home,
Speaker 1: that is the genuine copy. Well, there it is. It's true.
Speaker 1: When he wanted to put his mind to it and
Speaker 1: get it right, he did. Yeah, that's really bizarre. When
Speaker 1: the original painting arrives, it's not even close. But when
Speaker 1: he's told to do it exactly the copy, it's very close.
Speaker 1: It's it's pretty pretty spot on. Because you wonder how
Speaker 1: many more copies of it are they're out there? If
Speaker 1: he could so handily render facsimiles of cing Mirror, than
Speaker 1: how many more were out there? How many more people
Speaker 1: were told they were buying the original painting? How many
Speaker 1: more canvases have wtten on the back and the bin
Speaker 1: number that I had? But as I said, once we
Speaker 1: wanted to open up a can of worms, which would
Speaker 1: have discussed that, once we wanted to speak in court
Speaker 1: about where else she might have done this. They settled
Speaker 1: the case. You know, when all this went down, and
Speaker 1: I had gone to the d A to investigate our
Speaker 1: options and see what was going on. You know, one
Speaker 1: aspect of it was that this was also unnecessary if
Speaker 1: I had been someone who had had had some difficult
Speaker 1: relationship with Mary. If there's been some friction between us,
Speaker 1: especially in the art world, if wanting to settle a
Speaker 1: score with me, get even with me. I didn't really
Speaker 1: know Mary on a personal level, so there was really
Speaker 1: nothing between us that engendered that kind of treatment. I
Speaker 1: couldn't understand why she would do that to me. That's
Speaker 1: that's what really really upset me. And then I thought
Speaker 1: to myself, that's the whole point. You can walk in
Speaker 1: as a very innocent person who just as a lover
Speaker 1: of arts. I mean, I realized, I'm not spending tens
Speaker 1: of millions of dollars on a on a Pollock. It's
Speaker 1: not like the Lagrange case and and Friedman and Noodler
Speaker 1: and all that kind of stuff. I'm a guy walking
Speaker 1: in buying something in the high five figures the low
Speaker 1: six figures. But I'm wondering, I'm assuming that some of
Speaker 1: us are like some of the bread and butter of
Speaker 1: that business. And and even if we aren't, what's the
Speaker 1: amount of money I need to spend on the paving
Speaker 1: for you to treat me fairly. If I walked in
Speaker 1: the door and you said, let me just tell you
Speaker 1: this privately, Mary, what's saying now? I'm going to sell
Speaker 1: you a knockoff of bogus painting for the amount of
Speaker 1: money you're willing to spend. But if you spend more money,
Speaker 1: if you're willing to give me more money, I'll actually
Speaker 1: go get you the painting you want. I won't rip
Speaker 1: you off. I mean it was which was what did
Speaker 1: I need to do to deserve the fair treatment? I
Speaker 1: didn't understand any of why this happened. I guess I'll
Speaker 1: never know. Alec. We started working on this podcast a
Speaker 1: little over a year ago, and I remember at the
Speaker 1: time you said that you believed and Freedman. Your opinion
Speaker 1: was that she didn't know the paintings were fake and
Speaker 1: she hadn't sold them as fakes, and I said I
Speaker 1: felt just the opposite. And so I wonder, after a
Speaker 1: whole year of immersing ourselves in this podcast and talking
Speaker 1: to over two dozen experts, artists, lawyers, and journalists, have
Speaker 1: your beliefs held firm? Do you still think a Freedman
Speaker 1: had no idea she was complicit in a forgery scheme? Well,
Speaker 1: I think that what has changed is this idea that
Speaker 1: something hinges on everybody doing something they've never done before.
Speaker 1: Whenever people walk into a room and there's a time
Speaker 1: honored process they have as a protocol they have, and
Speaker 1: all of a sudden they throw that out the window.
Speaker 1: To the tune of tens of millions of dollars made,
Speaker 1: seventy million dollars and fake aren't there was sold here
Speaker 1: this gallery. There was no excuse. These people have no excuse,
Speaker 1: and Friedman hammer everybody involved in this case. These were
Speaker 1: the top people in the field. And what they didn't know.
Speaker 1: They summoned experts to come in and aid them and
Speaker 1: to counsel them on what to do. What I believe
Speaker 1: now is Anne knew she shouldn't have done what she did,
Speaker 1: but she pressed forward. Well, then, my friend, we are
Speaker 1: in agreement. I really believe that people arrive at a
Speaker 1: place and they believe only as it turns out that
Speaker 1: there's no turning back. Turning back in their mind was
Speaker 1: almost worse. They thought, let's see what happens if we
Speaker 1: get away with it. And if they got away with it,
Speaker 1: then everybody would be walking around staring at a fake
Speaker 1: Rothco and everybody would be happy. Who know, right? Really,
Speaker 1: the person I think who is the hammer that just
Speaker 1: shatters the whole stone work of this thing is Lagrange.
Speaker 1: When La Grange flies over here and has an apoplectic
Speaker 1: fit against this woman, I mean, this is a guy
Speaker 1: who's just not going to be denied. I agree with you.
Speaker 1: And then also just the sheer number of fakes that
Speaker 1: began to come forward. You know, you could believe a
Speaker 1: couple of them lacked provenance, when you're up to forty
Speaker 1: had all lacked provenance. This is something that occurred to
Speaker 1: me when Fara came to speak with us, and that
Speaker 1: is I thought, if this woman had gone into Anne
Speaker 1: and she'd had the least bit of a whiff of
Speaker 1: insincerity since of theater, or something being fabricated or false
Speaker 1: about her when I met her, it all fell into place.
Speaker 1: I thought, who could go in and do this to Anne?
Speaker 1: Who could fool Anne? Who wouldn't have to be enough
Speaker 1: to be somebody who she's like a school teacher, She's
Speaker 1: like a kindergarten teacher. Yes, I think that very day
Speaker 1: you said to me, you know, I believe her. You
Speaker 1: didn't believe Anne, but you did believe Gofira. One thing
Speaker 1: I know for sure. There were sixty or so fake
Speaker 1: painting sold by the Wiseman and n Oldler galleries, and
Speaker 1: it leaves me with a haunting thought, where are those
Speaker 1: paintings today? We know the souls fake Rothko ended up
Speaker 1: in Attorney Luke Nichols office a story to tell curious clients.
Speaker 1: Francis babies. Fake Clifford still found its way to the basement,
Speaker 1: only to get misplaced and free. Men's own fake Pollock
Speaker 1: with the misspelled signature was still hanging in her home
Speaker 1: last we heard. We also know a few of the
Speaker 1: paintings made their way into legal proceedings from various lawsuits.
Speaker 1: But what about the fifty or so others. How many
Speaker 1: of those fakes have been sold very quietly by buyers
Speaker 1: eager to expunge the stain of fraud from their walls,
Speaker 1: Buyers who may have recouped their losses illegally. Of course,
Speaker 1: perhaps they even profited, as Anne Friedman assured them they
Speaker 1: would with paintings from the David Herbert collection. And that's
Speaker 1: it for art fraud. Most of the listeners of this
Speaker 1: show will never purchase a piece of fine art in
Speaker 1: their lives. We hope you've enjoyed this show. Nonetheless, and
Speaker 1: for those who are real collector. Remember, if you can
Speaker 1: fool and Friedman, you can fool anyone. Kiss today you
Speaker 1: could buy the sweetness and the sorrow. Wish me luck
Speaker 1: the same tim you. But I can't regret what I
Speaker 1: did for love, what I did for love. Look my
Speaker 1: eyes are drum art. Fraud is brought to you by
Speaker 1: My Heart Radio and Cavalry Audio. Our executive producers are
Speaker 1: Matt del Piano, Keegan Rosenberger, Andy Turner, myself at Michael Shnayerson.
Speaker 1: We're produced by Brandon Morgan and Zach McNeice. Zack also
Speaker 1: edited and mixed this episode. Lindsay Hoffman is our managing producer.
Speaker 1: However writer is Michael Schneerson. On a cold morning in
Speaker 1: Sandy Beale was found shot to death in her car.
Speaker 1: There's no way, it's just it's just no way that
Speaker 1: it's going to be. Sandy's death was ruled a suicide,
Speaker 1: but her family has always questioned the official story to
Speaker 1: this day. They believe the police knew more than they
Speaker 1: let on. I didn't take any of that crap because
Speaker 1: I could tell that they were hiding something. Listen to
Speaker 1: what happened to Sandy Beale on the I Heart Radio app,
Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. When a
Speaker 1: trivial accusation started on an anonymous internet forum, the Korean
Speaker 1: hip hop star Tableau was at the top of his game,
Speaker 1: but then rumors started to spread that he wasn't who
Speaker 1: we said he was. I'm Dexter Thomas, the host of
Speaker 1: a new podcast from Vice about a bizarre conspiracy. It
Speaker 1: turned into an international obsession. Listen to Authentic the Story
Speaker 1: of Tableau on the I Heart Radio apps, Apple podcast
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. The Laundronauts a potentially
Speaker 1: untrue tale based on actual events. A young boy is
Speaker 1: shoved into a washing machine and vanishes. His friends try
Speaker 1: to rescue him, only to discover a magical world beyond
Speaker 1: the machine. Season one stars Ed Asner and Me John Cameron,
Speaker 1: Mitchell Fine j D. Belzell and bring him back home safely.
Speaker 1: Listen to The Landernauts on the I Heart Radio app,
Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Yes,