1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:04,520 Speaker 1: Look for your children's eyes, and you will discover the 2 00:00:04,559 --> 00:00:08,239 Speaker 1: true magic of a forest. Find a forest near you 3 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 1: and start exploring it. Discover the forest dot org. Brought 4 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:14,120 Speaker 1: to you by the United States Forest Service and the 5 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 1: AD Council. M Hey, Elizabeth, you're the co host of 6 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:20,520 Speaker 1: that new podcast, Ridiculous Crime. Why yes, I am You 7 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:24,640 Speaker 1: know what's ridiculous? Yeah? Carpeting in kitchens and bathrooms? Oh wow, 8 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:27,319 Speaker 1: you are good. But you know what's also ridiculous? A 9 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:29,760 Speaker 1: sixteen year old who breaks into a car dealership and 10 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 1: steals guy theories Lamborghini. What yes to impress a girl? 11 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:36,240 Speaker 1: I'll tell you all about it on Ridiculous Crime, our 12 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:40,239 Speaker 1: podcast about absurd and outrageous capers, heist and cons It's 13 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 1: always murder free and ridiculous. Listen to Ridiculous Crime on 14 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:49,479 Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 15 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:53,280 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. On the Art of Accomplishment podcast. We 16 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 1: love anxiety, anger, sadness, and selfishness. Most people do everything 17 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 1: they can to get rid of these emotions, but nothing 18 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 1: makes them go away. We, however, welcome them because they 19 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:06,679 Speaker 1: give us a healthy advantage if we know how to 20 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:10,360 Speaker 1: interpret their signals. Listen to the Art of Accomplishment podcast 21 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:13,400 Speaker 1: on the I Heart Radio, Apple Apple Podcasts or wherever 22 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:16,679 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts to understand yourself and be who 23 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 1: you were meant to be. I didn't set out to 24 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:33,319 Speaker 1: immerse myself in the murky realm of art fraud. In 25 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:36,199 Speaker 1: two thousand and ten, I found myself waging legal war 26 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:38,760 Speaker 1: with a dealer who sold me a painting that wasn't 27 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 1: quite right, as they say in the art world. As 28 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:46,200 Speaker 1: fate would have it, my story was unfolding just as 29 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 1: the Knodler Gallery scandal was taking center stage under intense 30 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 1: scrutiny from the press. As an actor, I'm always looking 31 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:59,800 Speaker 1: for what defines a character. All con artists have their 32 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 1: own definitive markings, and Friedman and Gupira Rosalees presented themselves 33 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 1: as courtly, almost academic, Yet behind their poise and professional demeanor, 34 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:18,080 Speaker 1: I always sensed an undertone of loneliness, even despair. To 35 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:21,520 Speaker 1: my surprise, these same traits are evident in both our 36 00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:29,280 Speaker 1: stories in this final episode of the season. Art fraud 37 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:37,080 Speaker 1: is an ever present phenomenon. Not long ago, Intego Philbrick, 38 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 1: a dapper, young London dealer, managed to steal some seventy 39 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:45,520 Speaker 1: million dollars from his friends and colleagues by selling fractional 40 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 1: shares of paintings than trading those shares like monopoly cards. 41 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:55,400 Speaker 1: Oftentimes pieces of one painting would be sold entirely twice 42 00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:57,920 Speaker 1: over in what amounted to a sort of art world 43 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:03,680 Speaker 1: Ponzi scheme. Intego was brilliant, says his friend Kenny Shackter, 44 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 1: a droll and beloved columnist of the contemporary art market. 45 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 1: Even more than like Gogozian or some other dealers, he 46 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:15,080 Speaker 1: could tell you the difference between a two million dollar 47 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 1: Christopher Wall painting and a two point two million He 48 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 1: would really have a cabal of people in Ago that 49 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:24,959 Speaker 1: he would sell work to, and then he would resell 50 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:29,080 Speaker 1: it amongst those participants, unwittingly that we're buying and selling 51 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:34,240 Speaker 1: art through him. Shackter lost one point seven five million dollars. 52 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 1: When Philbrick vanished, only to be arrested on an island 53 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 1: off the eastern coast of Australia, Kenny was left to 54 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 1: wonder what had motivated his friend to commit such egregious 55 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 1: acts of fraud, just as I had wondered about my dealer, 56 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 1: Mary Boone, I suspect the motivation is almost always universal greed. 57 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 1: We will get into my sordid story in a bit, 58 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 1: but first I want to tell you the story of 59 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 1: artist Robert Indiana, creator of the iconic love sculpture. The 60 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:18,039 Speaker 1: whole world knows those four letters to over two that 61 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 1: spelled love with its oh at a debonair slant. Long ago. 62 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:28,480 Speaker 1: Indiana had lived with artist Ellsworth Kelly on Cowenty's Slip, 63 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:32,239 Speaker 1: the Artist's Wharf in Lower Manhattan. But in the early 64 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 1: eighties he'd come to the coast of Maine and never left. 65 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 1: His home was a rambling Victorian lodge hall on the 66 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 1: scruffy island of vinel Haven, about halfway up the coast 67 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 1: of May near Rockland. There his career had stalled for 68 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 1: Indiana refused to trademark or copyright any of his work 69 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:59,240 Speaker 1: and let tacky commercial spinoffs of love define him. By 70 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:01,800 Speaker 1: the end of the seventies, he had moved out of 71 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 1: New York City, moved to Maine, and moved to vinyl Haven, Maine, 72 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:08,360 Speaker 1: which is an island an hour off the coast that 73 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 1: you can only get to by ferry or small engine plane, 74 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:14,480 Speaker 1: and so he was as isolated as they can get. 75 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 1: That's Luke Nikos, the lawyer who represented Ann Friedman in 76 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:23,560 Speaker 1: the trial, and now found himself fighting a perhaps more 77 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:28,240 Speaker 1: noble campaign on behalf of the iconic artist Robert Indiana. 78 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:31,680 Speaker 1: He was gone as far as the art world was concerned. 79 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 1: Throughout the eighties. He made works here and there, but 80 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:38,480 Speaker 1: he wasn't a superstar anymore. He wasn't recognized, and by 81 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 1: the end of the eighties he might as well not 82 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 1: even have existed in terms of his presence in the 83 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:47,159 Speaker 1: fine art world. That was when an art advisor named 84 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:52,880 Speaker 1: Simon Salama Carrow started knocking. Salama Carro had seen his 85 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 1: work and was interested in meeting with Indiana to talk 86 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:01,840 Speaker 1: with him about rejuvenating his career. He saw a path. 87 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 1: He saw a path of reintroducing Indiana's work to our historians, 88 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:11,120 Speaker 1: to museums. He saw a path of getting the infringing 89 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:15,680 Speaker 1: use of Indiana's images under control. No more shoes, no 90 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:20,360 Speaker 1: more trinkets, no more use that was outside of what 91 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 1: Simon thought would really bring the brand back. Salamcarrow steered 92 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:31,479 Speaker 1: his work away from schlocky spinoffs to sculptures in what 93 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 1: Indiana came to call admiringly the noble materials. He also 94 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 1: extricated the artist from an unpaid six hundred thousand dollars 95 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 1: in taxes and leans on his home. Such guidance didn't 96 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:50,080 Speaker 1: come for free. Salamcarro worked for the Morgan Art Foundation 97 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:54,040 Speaker 1: for profit that held the rights to produce Indiana's best 98 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:59,040 Speaker 1: known works, but Indiana could see it had promise Morgan 99 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 1: would take the copy rights in the trademarks, would give 100 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 1: Indiana of revenue from the use of those images so 101 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:09,359 Speaker 1: it would be a split between them, and Morgan would 102 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:14,200 Speaker 1: monitor and clean up the market for Indiana's images. It 103 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 1: went all over the world and started bringing infringement suits 104 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 1: season desist letters, and ultimately what that did was it 105 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:25,000 Speaker 1: created the very clear message that Indiana's imagery could not 106 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:29,680 Speaker 1: be exploited. At the same time, Morrigan put millions and 107 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:33,920 Speaker 1: millions and millions of dollars of funding behind the fabrication 108 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:38,560 Speaker 1: of indiana sculptures, which are extremely expensive to fabricate, difficult 109 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:41,520 Speaker 1: to fabricate. You need real facilities that Indiana did not have. 110 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 1: Ten years later, or so fifteen years the Whitney Museum 111 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 1: in New York City had a major retrospective of Indiana's work, 112 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 1: and he was back on the map again extraordinarily successful. 113 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 1: And then what happened? Michael Mackenzie came into the picture 114 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:04,280 Speaker 1: in two thousand eight. Advisor Michael Mackenzie had a brilliant idea, 115 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 1: why not change Indiana's love to hope and make it 116 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:15,560 Speaker 1: the banner for the surging Obama presidential campaign. As Mackenzie 117 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 1: deepened his relationship with Indiana over hope, he began expanding 118 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:27,960 Speaker 1: Hope prints on canvas, more Hope sculptures, more colors of hope. Expand, Expand, Expand, 119 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 1: and then he bought a studio on Vinyl even near 120 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:38,199 Speaker 1: Indiana to have better access to him. Soon, other operators 121 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:41,880 Speaker 1: began swooping in. I spoke with Bob Keys, a longtime 122 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:45,319 Speaker 1: reporter for the Portland Press Herald who just published a 123 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 1: fascinating book titled The Isolation Artist, Scandal, Deception, and the 124 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:54,680 Speaker 1: Last Days of Robert Indiana. Keys described the circle of 125 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 1: operators well. Jim Brown is a long time attorney in 126 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:02,960 Speaker 1: Rock and Maine. He became much more closely involved in 127 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:07,680 Speaker 1: Indiana's affairs and in twos sixteen helped change Indiana's will 128 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:11,840 Speaker 1: that made him the executor of the estate. And Jamie Thomas, 129 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 1: who was then an island caretaker became much more involved 130 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 1: in Indiana's personal affairs, and he became the power of 131 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 1: attorney as well as the healthcare power of attorney. And 132 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 1: from that point on UH indianas certainly lost control of 133 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 1: much of the legal and professional aspects of his life 134 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 1: in terms of his legal representation, and Jamie Thomas was 135 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 1: authorized at that point to make business decisions for him 136 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:39,960 Speaker 1: as power of attorney. That's when we began to see 137 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 1: much more work attributed to Mackenzie start to come out 138 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:47,640 Speaker 1: of the UH Indiana studio at a time when Indiana 139 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:50,000 Speaker 1: was definitely in failing health and had not made new 140 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:52,880 Speaker 1: work in quite a while. Now, is that to say 141 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:55,400 Speaker 1: that that it looked to you and others as if 142 00:09:55,400 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 1: what Mackenzie and um Thomas we're doing, and perhaps Brandon 143 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 1: as well, was forging. Uh forging is a legal term. 144 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:06,360 Speaker 1: I think what they were doing was pushing the boundaries 145 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:10,760 Speaker 1: of what was authentic work. The work was suspicious right 146 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:13,320 Speaker 1: away in the eyes of many people who knew it. 147 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 1: It didn't seem authentic. My reporting suggests that Indiana probably 148 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:20,080 Speaker 1: was aware of its creation but not involved with it 149 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:24,400 Speaker 1: and looked the other way, and that was fairly common 150 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 1: during that point in his life. And what did it 151 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:37,199 Speaker 1: mean that Thomas became beneficiary I guess of the estate. 152 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 1: I mean he had nothing to do with making art. 153 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 1: Why was he written into the will? Thomas was written 154 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:46,640 Speaker 1: into the will because Indiana at some point surrounded himself 155 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:50,120 Speaker 1: with people from the vinyl Haven community who were loyal 156 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:52,840 Speaker 1: to him, and Thomas was in that camp. Thomas had 157 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:56,199 Speaker 1: a relationship with Robert Indiana that went back many decades. 158 00:10:57,000 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 1: There is a lot of debate among people who worked 159 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:01,680 Speaker 1: with Indiana how they were, but it is a fact. 160 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 1: At his eightieth birthday party in two thousand and eight, 161 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 1: Indiana invited Jamie Thomas to it, and that was a 162 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 1: pretty personal affair, so they definitely had a friendship. Jamie 163 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:16,679 Speaker 1: Thomas ultimately convinced Indiana to make him the power of attorney. 164 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:22,200 Speaker 1: And then we see Thomas's text messages with Mackenzie up 165 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 1: until the point Indiana died, where they were texting back 166 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:28,840 Speaker 1: and forth about works that they would create together. You 167 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:32,719 Speaker 1: can envision the text W I N E and and 168 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 1: so forth and so on, stacked four letter words. They 169 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:38,520 Speaker 1: were texting back and forth that they should create on 170 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 1: their own while Indiana was on his deathbed, and so Mackenzie, 171 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:45,559 Speaker 1: deep in that relationship, built it with Thomas. Thomas was 172 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:50,040 Speaker 1: on the inside. Thomas became involved in Indiana's life at 173 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:52,839 Speaker 1: a time when his health was failing, and many people 174 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 1: on the island saw him as coming in to help 175 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:58,720 Speaker 1: get Indiana out of some more trouble. But there's no 176 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:02,680 Speaker 1: question that in so doing he also isolated Indiana from 177 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:05,480 Speaker 1: all of his art world contacts who could no longer 178 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 1: reach him an interview him and talk about things. And 179 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:10,080 Speaker 1: at the same time, there was a large body of 180 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:12,960 Speaker 1: work coming out of his studio and it had the 181 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 1: mark of Mackenzie all over it. Fine art friends like 182 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 1: legendary Dartmouth art professor John Wilmerding started knocking on the 183 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 1: door of Indiana's Vinyl Haven home and getting no response. 184 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:32,199 Speaker 1: John Wilmerging made at least an annual trip to see 185 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:35,080 Speaker 1: Robert Indiana at the Star of Hope every summer. I 186 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:38,160 Speaker 1: believe the last time he saw Indiana was in the 187 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 1: fall or late summer of umerd made a comment to 188 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:44,559 Speaker 1: Indiana that it sort of looks like the School of Indiana, 189 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 1: and Indiana sort of shrugged and said, I guess in 190 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:49,720 Speaker 1: some ways that it is. Wilmerding never saw him again. 191 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:52,560 Speaker 1: He tried to reach him, He sent emails that were 192 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:56,120 Speaker 1: not returned. He had ters responses from others in the 193 00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:58,840 Speaker 1: Indiana camp and basically was told you're no longer going 194 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:01,079 Speaker 1: to be able to see him, and other people were 195 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 1: peeled away as well. By early two thousand eighteen, attorney 196 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:10,400 Speaker 1: Luke Nikos, representing the Morgan Art Foundation, alleged that the 197 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:15,320 Speaker 1: trio of art publisher Michael Mackenzie, caretaker Jamie Thomas, and 198 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 1: local business partner James W. Brannan had taken control of 199 00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:24,360 Speaker 1: the eighty eight year old artist. Indiana lived in an 200 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 1: old Mason's home. Is a very old home, big beautiful home, 201 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 1: tons of space, but also in need of significant repair 202 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:36,440 Speaker 1: that wasn't kept up over time, and so Indiana's bedroom 203 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:39,720 Speaker 1: was on the top floor, and near the end of 204 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:43,160 Speaker 1: his life, they took the staircase that went from his 205 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:47,200 Speaker 1: bedroom out of the house down to his yard out 206 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 1: of the house that completely removed it. We were told 207 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:55,199 Speaker 1: by studio assistants that the locks were changed so they 208 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 1: couldn't get in to help Indiana, that windows were boarded 209 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:02,160 Speaker 1: up so that he couldn't yell out or reach out 210 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:06,120 Speaker 1: for help, and so this was total isolation in the 211 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 1: extreme to prevent Indiana from reaching out to the people 212 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:15,559 Speaker 1: he knew could help him out of this situation. There 213 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 1: was more. Luke learned the Trio had taken over Indiana's 214 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 1: email account as Voicemail and had completely controlled every aspect 215 00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 1: of his life for the last several years. Not only 216 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 1: did Morgan allege Jamie Thomas stole money from Indiana and 217 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:36,880 Speaker 1: diverted opportunities from Indiana, but Morgan alleged that Jamie Thomas 218 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:42,800 Speaker 1: and Michael Mackenzie had conspired to forge works in Indiana's name. 219 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:47,440 Speaker 1: The trio had even stolen images that the Morrigan Art 220 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:52,080 Speaker 1: Foundation owned and sold those images as Indiana's even though 221 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 1: they weren't. We found a Instagram post a video of 222 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 1: someone signing in mackenzie studio Robert Indiana works with an 223 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 1: auto pen or a ghost writer, and in the middle 224 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 1: of the video, the studio assistant said for jury and 225 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 1: posted that Mackenzie her boss, was forcing her to forge 226 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 1: paintings and if the police came, she would quote unquote 227 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 1: sing like a bird. And so we we filed this 228 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 1: lawsuit alleging that Mackenzie had forged these paintings. The very 229 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:29,160 Speaker 1: next day, in May of two thousand eighteen, Indiana died. 230 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:40,440 Speaker 1: Despite Indiana's death, the case forged ahead. We jumped into 231 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:44,080 Speaker 1: discovery in the case, got more information related to the 232 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 1: works that were being made. We have witnesses, We took testimony, 233 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 1: and then throughout the case Michael Mackenzie testified that he 234 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 1: had absolutely no more works by Indiana in his possession. 235 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 1: He wasn't making any works. The entire business was shut 236 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 1: down in that respect. Two weeks ago, I inspected Michael 237 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 1: Mackenzie's property to look at the works that were on 238 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 1: the property, and it turns out there were over a 239 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 1: thousand works on the property that we're supposedly by Robert 240 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 1: Indiana stencils that he was using with certain years two 241 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 1: thousand fifteen, two thousand seventeen stamped on the back of 242 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 1: the paintings that were used as Indiana signature. So I 243 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 1: went to the judge and I asked for more discovery 244 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 1: given that we had been denied information, and then was 245 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 1: allowed to go out again and inspect the entire studio. 246 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:37,000 Speaker 1: And when I was there, I cataloged the entire blueprint 247 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 1: of how Michael McKenzie operated the catalog. Resume of Robert 248 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 1: Indiana's works was tabbed with post it notes. He had 249 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 1: a full composition notebook of drawings of Indiana works he 250 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 1: was creating. And so we went back to the court 251 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:53,400 Speaker 1: and said he's forging works. This is the blueprint, this 252 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 1: is the forger's den. I received a phone call from 253 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 1: one of Michael mackenzie's now former friends and what he 254 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 1: said was two things. Number one, Michael Mackenzie still forging works. 255 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:11,400 Speaker 1: He just forged a hundred and fifty in his studio. 256 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:15,399 Speaker 1: Here's a picture. He's stamping the back of those works 257 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:19,640 Speaker 1: with two thousand fifteen stencils, with two thousand seventeen stencils. 258 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:21,879 Speaker 1: He's selling them for a lot of money all over 259 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 1: the world. And production was still ramping up when you 260 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:32,000 Speaker 1: came to the studio under court order allowed to inspect 261 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 1: his property to see what he had created. In the 262 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:38,399 Speaker 1: middle of the day and night before you arrived, he 263 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 1: shipped seven truckloads of art off the property into a 264 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 1: storage facility to prevent you from seeing what he had done. 265 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 1: Luke got a declaration from Mackenzie under oath detailing all 266 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 1: of this, detailing the forgeries he was making, detailing how 267 00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:02,480 Speaker 1: he was using the stencils, detailing Mackenzie's proclivities toward guns 268 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 1: and threats, and the way he deals with people in 269 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:08,280 Speaker 1: his workplace. And so we got that declaration under oath, 270 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 1: went back to the judge, and the judge is now 271 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:14,359 Speaker 1: opening up the whole other phase in the case for 272 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:18,520 Speaker 1: violation of all of these discovery orders that she's issued. 273 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 1: In the summer of Luke Nicholas demonstrated the automatic signature 274 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:30,200 Speaker 1: machine that signed Indiana Prince and showed the tropes of forgeries. 275 00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:36,639 Speaker 1: With that, three of the parties settled, the Morgan Art Foundation, 276 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:41,120 Speaker 1: the artist's Star of Hope Foundation, and the estate itself. 277 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:46,959 Speaker 1: Perhaps now top quality Indiana works could be sold again. 278 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 1: Also participating in the settlement where Jamie Thomas, the island 279 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 1: caretaker and Jim Brannan the lawyer, left out was Michael Mackenzie, 280 00:18:57,640 --> 00:18:59,880 Speaker 1: who said he would work with both parties but imply 281 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:04,440 Speaker 1: ide the wrangling wasn't done yet. Quote I can take 282 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:08,160 Speaker 1: this apart, he warned his partners. In The New York Times. 283 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 1: The terms were secret, which struck many as odd since 284 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:16,760 Speaker 1: the Star of Hope is a nonprofit foundation. There are 285 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:18,760 Speaker 1: many people who believe that settlement needs to be made 286 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:21,439 Speaker 1: public because the Star of Hope Foundation is a public 287 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:24,640 Speaker 1: entity in Maine and it's UH the taxpayers and their 288 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:28,320 Speaker 1: citizens and residents of Maine have vested interest in the 289 00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:31,720 Speaker 1: outcome of it, and it's worth maybe a million hundred 290 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:36,639 Speaker 1: million dollars the estate, and UH, as taxpayers, we have 291 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:38,680 Speaker 1: a right to know at least what it says and 292 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:41,320 Speaker 1: and who's going to benefit from the estate and where 293 00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:44,920 Speaker 1: the artwork is going to go. Indiana wanted his artwork 294 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 1: on view and for public consumption. That's what he cared 295 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:59,399 Speaker 1: most about. What I'm struck by in this story is 296 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:02,760 Speaker 1: the efforts Indiana made to get his name back and 297 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:06,200 Speaker 1: to get the valuation of his work back. And he's successful, 298 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:08,919 Speaker 1: but then he runs into these people and it just 299 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:13,800 Speaker 1: blows up in his face. Ultimately, this is the story 300 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 1: of a brilliant but lonely man whose art may never 301 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:21,000 Speaker 1: have filled the whole in his heart. Certainly he never 302 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 1: had another long term partner after Ellsworth Kelly asked for 303 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:30,000 Speaker 1: the Vinyl Haven community. Despite welcoming the great artist in 304 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:34,920 Speaker 1: early the local fishermen and their families had cut Indiana 305 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:41,120 Speaker 1: off amid shocking charges. Indiana had been arrested for solicitation 306 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:46,719 Speaker 1: of prostitution and stood accused of paying minors for sex. 307 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 1: One local boy testified that he was twelve when the 308 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:54,760 Speaker 1: abuse began and that it had continued for six years. 309 00:20:55,720 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 1: Another accuser also came forward a legal proceeding A quick 310 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:05,320 Speaker 1: did Indiana of the charges. In Indiana said he felt 311 00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 1: lucky to be acquitted, a sentiment that left the Islanders outraged. 312 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:14,679 Speaker 1: I feel that Indiana brought on a lot of the 313 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:18,320 Speaker 1: problems himself because of his inability to resolve the conflicts. 314 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:22,119 Speaker 1: He suffered from a lot of issues in terms of 315 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:24,639 Speaker 1: his youth and his lack of trust and his inability 316 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:27,640 Speaker 1: to let people close to him, and that really did 317 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:31,320 Speaker 1: affect him at the end. I feel sorry for him 318 00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:35,480 Speaker 1: because of his lack of personal tools that one needs 319 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 1: to navigate the world. He didn't have a healthy youth 320 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 1: grown up, and he never figured out how to live 321 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:46,800 Speaker 1: in the world in a partnered sort of way. All 322 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:56,080 Speaker 1: he was left within the end was hope. After the break, 323 00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:59,879 Speaker 1: Michael Shnayerson and I will talk about Mary Boone Ross 324 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:03,000 Speaker 1: Lechner and a painting I loved and finally was able 325 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 1: to purchase sort of Hey, it's your girl, Emily Curl 326 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:12,879 Speaker 1: from My Heart Radio. And whether you work, create, or play, 327 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 1: Logitech is designing products for you to unleash your creativity 328 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 1: and defy the logic of the past. 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Logitech defy logic. 338 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:04,439 Speaker 1: From more information, visit logitech dot com slash to by Logic. 339 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:09,240 Speaker 1: Adoption of teams from foster care is a topic not 340 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 1: enough people know about, and we're here to change that. 341 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:15,200 Speaker 1: I'm April Dinuit, the host of the new podcast Navigating Adoption, 342 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:18,960 Speaker 1: presented by adopt Us Kids. Each episode brings you compelling, 343 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:21,960 Speaker 1: real life adoption stories told by the families that lived 344 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:25,960 Speaker 1: them with commentary from experts. Visit adopt us Kids dot org, 345 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:29,800 Speaker 1: slash podcast, or subscribe to Navigating Adoption, presented by adopt 346 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 1: us Kids, brought to you by the U. S. Department 347 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:34,880 Speaker 1: of Health and Human Services, Administration for Children and Families 348 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:40,480 Speaker 1: and the ACT Council. What grows in the forest trees? Sure? No. 349 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:43,960 Speaker 1: What else grows in the forest, Our imagination, our sense 350 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:47,360 Speaker 1: of wonder and our family bonds grow too, because when 351 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:54,200 Speaker 1: we disconnect from this and connect with this, we reconnect 352 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:57,280 Speaker 1: with each other. The forest is closer than you think. 353 00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:00,480 Speaker 1: Find a forest near you and start explain. Or I 354 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:03,040 Speaker 1: discovered the fourth dot org brought to you by the 355 00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 1: United States Fourth Service and the ad Council. In the 356 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:12,199 Speaker 1: ninety movie gaslight Ingrid Bergmann found yourself wondering why her 357 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:15,399 Speaker 1: possessions are moving and vanishing? Is she losing her mind? 358 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:18,640 Speaker 1: I thought about that movie, Alec, when I first heard 359 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:21,200 Speaker 1: about your own personal brush with art fraud. So how 360 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:25,200 Speaker 1: did that happen? Well, you know, for a long time 361 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:29,159 Speaker 1: I had walked around with this mailing card that I 362 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 1: got from Mary Boone and Calorie selling a painting by 363 00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:37,119 Speaker 1: Ross Bleckner, and I had it with me and you know, 364 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:39,200 Speaker 1: kind of stared at it every now and then thought, Wow, 365 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:41,840 Speaker 1: I wonder where that painting is. And I mean I 366 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:45,640 Speaker 1: I wasn't someone who was keen on researching that and 367 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 1: chasing that down. First of all, let's talk about Bleckner 368 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:53,639 Speaker 1: a minute and sort of put him in context. He 369 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:56,560 Speaker 1: had come up in the early eighties in a group 370 00:24:56,600 --> 00:25:00,959 Speaker 1: of young, very dramatic artists represented by the Mary Boot Gallery. 371 00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:03,359 Speaker 1: They were doing something new, you know, breaking out of 372 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,639 Speaker 1: abstract and minimalist art that frankly most people were tired of. 373 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:10,800 Speaker 1: And Mary saw that the market was ready for big, 374 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,800 Speaker 1: bold paintings with a lot of color paintings you can understand. 375 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 1: So by the early nineteen eighties she had the hottest 376 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:21,040 Speaker 1: gallery in New York. Perhaps not by coincidence, her artists 377 00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:25,040 Speaker 1: were mostly male, handsome, very dramatic. They were artists who 378 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 1: actually looked and acted like artists. Painters like Julian Schnabel 379 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 1: with his broken plate paintings, Eric Fishel with his paintings 380 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:35,639 Speaker 1: that showed a dark side of suburban life, and David 381 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:40,199 Speaker 1: Sally who painted sensuous women among various symbols, and finally 382 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:44,960 Speaker 1: Ross Buckner. So what was it about Ross Bleckner that 383 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:48,399 Speaker 1: you liked, you know, more than those other artists. I 384 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:50,720 Speaker 1: think just the colors. I mean, you know, my own 385 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:54,720 Speaker 1: personal taste, you know. I think that picture just kind 386 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:58,080 Speaker 1: of cast a little tiny spell on me, you know 387 00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:00,200 Speaker 1: what I mean. And I and I, like I said, 388 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:03,280 Speaker 1: I wound up carrying that in a sheaf of papers 389 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:05,760 Speaker 1: that I had, that a little binder. One day, as 390 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 1: luck would have it, I met Ross and a bunch 391 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:11,280 Speaker 1: of other people for Ross's birthday, which coincided with another 392 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:15,480 Speaker 1: opening he had at Mary Boom, and I went and 393 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:18,040 Speaker 1: saw a painting I liked. I had to hustle out 394 00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:20,920 Speaker 1: the door because we relate to another appointment. I came 395 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:23,920 Speaker 1: back the next day that painting was sold. You went 396 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,520 Speaker 1: into that event one night, I think you said in 397 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:30,560 Speaker 1: two right. We went to the gallery because it was 398 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:33,680 Speaker 1: Ross's birthday, and we went to the opening, and then 399 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:37,119 Speaker 1: we were hustled out of the opening very quickly. I 400 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:38,520 Speaker 1: was like, well, I'd like to spend some time or 401 00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:40,199 Speaker 1: look at some of the paintings, and they were like, 402 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:42,080 Speaker 1: what you know, they weren't there to buy any of 403 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:46,120 Speaker 1: Ross's paintings. His friends. So I came back the next 404 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:50,159 Speaker 1: day and I said to Mary, that's the painting I want. 405 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:53,239 Speaker 1: She said, well, that's sold, And then you realized, well, 406 00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:55,400 Speaker 1: of course it did, and she said, when you come 407 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:57,880 Speaker 1: in and we can talk, I go to a computer 408 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:00,000 Speaker 1: with her and I take her to see a mirror 409 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:02,080 Speaker 1: the painting that i'd refer to in the in the 410 00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:04,880 Speaker 1: mailer that I carried around the Holy Grail here if 411 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:10,000 Speaker 1: you will, of Ross's paintings to me, I said that picture, 412 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:11,800 Speaker 1: I said, where is that? She goes, I think I 413 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:14,120 Speaker 1: can get that for you. I think that guy would 414 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,679 Speaker 1: sell that painting. So that was the picture that was 415 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:20,040 Speaker 1: literally the image that you had had on your card 416 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:23,160 Speaker 1: that you were walking around with. That was the painting 417 00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 1: see and mirror from She said, I know who bought that, 418 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 1: And she said, I think I can get it fair. 419 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:35,320 Speaker 1: I presume you thought, well that could be expensive if 420 00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:37,680 Speaker 1: she's going to persuade someone to sell the painting back 421 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:40,840 Speaker 1: to you, But you said, go ahead and try your luck. 422 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:43,840 Speaker 1: You know, Mary, if you can do it, great, and 423 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:47,320 Speaker 1: only the next day, if not even that day, she 424 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,320 Speaker 1: called you back to say what she said, I got 425 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:54,919 Speaker 1: the painting. Yeah, Now the paintings that were contemporary, the 426 00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:59,040 Speaker 1: paintings that were from that gallery exhibit in and around 427 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 1: that time we're in the high five figures. She then 428 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:04,240 Speaker 1: came to me and said, I can get you this 429 00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:08,159 Speaker 1: painting for a hundred and ninety thousand dollars, and it 430 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:13,119 Speaker 1: was more than double the thousand dollars that Ross was 431 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:16,080 Speaker 1: getting for the other paintings where they were a five 432 00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:19,680 Speaker 1: thousand dollar range. So what was her rationale for why 433 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:23,359 Speaker 1: you should pay you more than twice? I was buying 434 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 1: the six painting. She was saying, how I'm buying it 435 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:30,280 Speaker 1: from this collector, and that's what he wants. He wants 436 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:34,040 Speaker 1: a hundred and nine dollars for the painting. I said, great, 437 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 1: I'll take it. I was just completely completely overjoyed that 438 00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:44,240 Speaker 1: I could get the painting. Thrilled with the opportunity he 439 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:47,320 Speaker 1: had been presented to finally own his own Holy Grail 440 00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:51,400 Speaker 1: of paintings, Alec purchased Ross Buck, Nurse c and Mirror 441 00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:54,800 Speaker 1: from Mary Boone for the agreed price of a hundred 442 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:58,120 Speaker 1: and ninety thousand dollars. A short time later, the painting 443 00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:02,480 Speaker 1: arrived at Alex's office on the upper side, so we 444 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:05,040 Speaker 1: had them hang the painting and when they hung the painting, 445 00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:10,440 Speaker 1: it reeked very strongly of some chemical like paint thinner, turpentine, 446 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:13,800 Speaker 1: some astringent kind of chemical smell like that. And then 447 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:18,080 Speaker 1: I called her and I said, that gauzy feathered effect 448 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:22,960 Speaker 1: that is on display in this painting in the mirror 449 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:24,800 Speaker 1: like no other. I mean, it's probably one of his 450 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:29,000 Speaker 1: gaussiest series of paintings, and very watery. It doesn't look 451 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 1: like that at all. It doesn't look like that at all. 452 00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:33,880 Speaker 1: And I said, what's going on? And it smells at 453 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:36,440 Speaker 1: this chemical? She said, well, we took it off the 454 00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:40,280 Speaker 1: stretcher and we cleaned it because the previous owner was 455 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 1: a heavy smoker and we wanted to clean the painting. 456 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:47,920 Speaker 1: And I thought, uh huh okay. But and and even 457 00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 1: though clean, I thought cleaning wouldn't affect the technique of 458 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:55,600 Speaker 1: the painting. It was almost like she was suggesting that 459 00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:58,560 Speaker 1: the cleaning of the painting had altered the very nature 460 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:01,840 Speaker 1: of the painting. It was very bright and very vivid. 461 00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:04,240 Speaker 1: It wasn't at all like the other paintings. I said, 462 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:05,960 Speaker 1: look like a bag of M and M spilled on 463 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:09,120 Speaker 1: the floor. Was very bright and very shiny. The colors 464 00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:11,560 Speaker 1: weren't the same in the original sea and mirror there 465 00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:17,200 Speaker 1: are really strong. The yellows are very buttery, the reds 466 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,680 Speaker 1: are very maroon and very burgundy and very strong. And 467 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,520 Speaker 1: these are my favorite colors. There's violets that are just 468 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,800 Speaker 1: all the haunting colors. And then the ones that he 469 00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:30,160 Speaker 1: did for this picture. I mean, I I sometimes wonder 470 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:33,120 Speaker 1: if he even painted this. It was like some assistant 471 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:36,840 Speaker 1: or something, because it was really nowhere at all remotely 472 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:39,200 Speaker 1: like the original painting. And she said to me, well, 473 00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 1: we took it off the stretcher in case we had 474 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:44,920 Speaker 1: to repair some cracks and stuff. And later on I 475 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:52,200 Speaker 1: consulted with someone else who told me that's nonsense. I 476 00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:55,320 Speaker 1: just find it so fascinating that, you know, you called 477 00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:58,880 Speaker 1: Mary and she just had this song and dance about 478 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 1: how it was the real painting. It was the painting 479 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:03,120 Speaker 1: that you had wanted, that you had carried around a 480 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:06,760 Speaker 1: picture of all these years. You know, she could have 481 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:09,080 Speaker 1: gone a whole other way here. She could have said, 482 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:11,800 Speaker 1: you know, I couldn't get that painting, but here's some 483 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:14,760 Speaker 1: others from the series. Well, I mean, you know, I 484 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:18,320 Speaker 1: always live inside a world of alternatives. You know, what 485 00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:23,480 Speaker 1: might have happened, what choices might people have made? And 486 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:26,680 Speaker 1: one of the things that was just clear to me 487 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:28,720 Speaker 1: was if you'd come to me and said, I can't 488 00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:31,880 Speaker 1: get the painting. The guy in California that owns the 489 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:36,440 Speaker 1: se in mirror, I either can't find him or he 490 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:39,560 Speaker 1: doesn't want to sell. My point is is that if 491 00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 1: she come to me and said, I'll have them paint 492 00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:45,320 Speaker 1: you a copy, I'll have him paint you another in 493 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 1: a series of these types of paintings, I would have 494 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:51,440 Speaker 1: said great. And it wasn't like I'm saying, oh, when 495 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:54,440 Speaker 1: you're gonna charge me eight dollars to like like I 496 00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:56,800 Speaker 1: was obsessed about the price. The important thing is I 497 00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:00,080 Speaker 1: would have accepted a copy. Had they told me it 498 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:02,120 Speaker 1: was a copy, we could have negotiated the price. But 499 00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:04,600 Speaker 1: instead she didn't say it was a copy. She put 500 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:07,800 Speaker 1: the bin number of the ninet painting on the back 501 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:11,120 Speaker 1: of the painting she sold me. She put the date 502 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:14,480 Speaker 1: nine nine six on the back of the painting she 503 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:18,520 Speaker 1: sold me. All of it was just weeked of foul play, 504 00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:22,040 Speaker 1: of speaking. The fact that you're handing me the painting 505 00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:24,800 Speaker 1: in two thousand ten and you're putting the date nine 506 00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:27,880 Speaker 1: and it wasn't the painting from nineteen ninety six, you 507 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:31,320 Speaker 1: put a fake date on there. When all this went 508 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:34,800 Speaker 1: down and she was confronted, legally, the statute of limitations 509 00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:38,800 Speaker 1: had passed, but she decided to go a completely different way. 510 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:42,760 Speaker 1: She insisted that I knew it was a copy. I 511 00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:45,400 Speaker 1: knew what I was buying. She had never represented to 512 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:48,720 Speaker 1: me that this was the original painting. She swore up 513 00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:51,600 Speaker 1: and down that I knew I was buying a copy 514 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:55,680 Speaker 1: of C and Mirror from, not the original painting, which 515 00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:58,560 Speaker 1: was not true. And the MO went back to the 516 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:03,800 Speaker 1: d A and said, she charged me. I just bought 517 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:06,520 Speaker 1: two paintings from her that were freshly made, so to speak, 518 00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:09,200 Speaker 1: that were freshly baked, and they were in the high 519 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:11,520 Speaker 1: five figures. Why would I pay a hundred and nine 520 00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:16,600 Speaker 1: dollars for a freshly baked Ross? Now that was exhibit A, 521 00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:18,480 Speaker 1: if you will, and the other was the date and 522 00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:21,720 Speaker 1: the bin number. And when this thing was on my wall, 523 00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:24,040 Speaker 1: I said to myself, and again, I think it's an 524 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:26,480 Speaker 1: important point that it wasn't around me all the time 525 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:28,560 Speaker 1: I travel uptown, I go to that office, I go, oh, 526 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:32,040 Speaker 1: there it is, and I'd say, so that means Ross 527 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:35,640 Speaker 1: is a fake. And Ross I was kind of friendly 528 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 1: with and I thought, well, this means Ross ripped me off. 529 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:43,040 Speaker 1: And I thought or not. I mean maybe Ross was 530 00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:46,240 Speaker 1: told he's okay with a copy, make him a copy, 531 00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:49,680 Speaker 1: and I'm gonna sell him this copy. I believe she 532 00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:54,000 Speaker 1: played both of us. I believe she said Ross, he 533 00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:56,080 Speaker 1: wants a copy of c and Mirrors, and she said 534 00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:58,040 Speaker 1: to me, I'm going to get you the original Sea 535 00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:00,960 Speaker 1: and Mirrors. He thought one thing, I thought another thing. 536 00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:08,840 Speaker 1: As it turned out, that's exactly what happened. We reached 537 00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:11,600 Speaker 1: out to Ross Bleckner for comment, and he was gracious 538 00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:15,080 Speaker 1: enough to respond. While we don't feel comfortable reading his 539 00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:18,960 Speaker 1: response verbatim, we can say that Ross's own recollection of 540 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:22,680 Speaker 1: the events is precisely what Alex expected. That is to say, 541 00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:25,840 Speaker 1: Mary Boone contacted Bluckner and asked him to paint a 542 00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:28,919 Speaker 1: copy of Cen Mirror for a client. He didn't hear 543 00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:31,440 Speaker 1: from Mary Boone after that. Once she took possession of 544 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:37,719 Speaker 1: the painting. The moment, we subpoenaed her emails and she produced, 545 00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:40,240 Speaker 1: and Ross produced a bunch of emails, and she produced 546 00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:43,959 Speaker 1: almost none. And the judge said, if you don't give 547 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:46,520 Speaker 1: me these emails, if you're saying, you don't have emails 548 00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:49,640 Speaker 1: of your exchange with him that discussed this early on. 549 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:52,520 Speaker 1: You know, at the onset, I was amazed at how 550 00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:55,080 Speaker 1: firm the judge was and how clear of the judge was. 551 00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:58,480 Speaker 1: The judge says, if you don't do this, I'm going 552 00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:02,040 Speaker 1: to assume you're hiding something, I'm going to automatically assume 553 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:05,359 Speaker 1: there's something you're hiding. And they were just shrieking up 554 00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:07,279 Speaker 1: and down that they couldn't wait to have that in 555 00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:10,759 Speaker 1: a courtroom and overs of the stuff, and I thought, okay, okay. 556 00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:14,799 Speaker 1: And then once we subpoened all of her emails to 557 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:18,600 Speaker 1: any sales of Ross Blacker, because we knew deep down 558 00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:20,720 Speaker 1: inside that she didn't wake up one day and start 559 00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:24,279 Speaker 1: doing this with me that day. We wanted to check 560 00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:27,200 Speaker 1: and see were we in the territory of a class 561 00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:31,239 Speaker 1: action suit with a grouping of people who had been 562 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:34,600 Speaker 1: treated this way in some way. And the moment we 563 00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:38,880 Speaker 1: subpoenaed all of her emails to discuss that, they settled 564 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:40,640 Speaker 1: and they wrote me a check for a million dollars. 565 00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:50,200 Speaker 1: I want you to tell me about going to marry 566 00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:52,920 Speaker 1: Anne Bowski. You were going to see some paintings. She 567 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:56,080 Speaker 1: was going to show you a Thornton dial and what happened. 568 00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:59,920 Speaker 1: That became a real turning point when I said to 569 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:02,680 Speaker 1: her that, Mary said, we took the painting off the 570 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:05,600 Speaker 1: stretcher in order to repair it and clean it. I 571 00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:09,400 Speaker 1: think she said it needed to be repaired. Mary Ann said, well, 572 00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:11,680 Speaker 1: that's ridiculous. I said, what do you mean? She said, 573 00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:14,400 Speaker 1: she would never have taken the painting off the canvas 574 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:17,600 Speaker 1: and repaired it and cleaned it without your permission. She 575 00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:19,880 Speaker 1: just took it upon herself. She's claiming to do that. 576 00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:22,200 Speaker 1: We we just did that for you. And she said, 577 00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:24,879 Speaker 1: it never happens that way. She said, this is an 578 00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:28,400 Speaker 1: all likelihood of fake. It looks like a fake, and 579 00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:30,399 Speaker 1: it smells like a fake because it is a fake. 580 00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,400 Speaker 1: Mary Anne Bowski has been an art dealer for twenty 581 00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:39,000 Speaker 1: five years. She started her first gallery and her current 582 00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:41,960 Speaker 1: gallery on Two Street in New York has been opened 583 00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:46,680 Speaker 1: since two thousand six. Alec visited with Marianne recently at 584 00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:50,359 Speaker 1: her gallery. She recalled their original conversation about that ill 585 00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:54,360 Speaker 1: fated painting. You just said, is it strange that I 586 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:57,080 Speaker 1: would have gotten, you know, a painting after I bought 587 00:36:57,120 --> 00:36:59,279 Speaker 1: it and it would look different than the image that 588 00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:02,160 Speaker 1: it looked like, and then was told that it was 589 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:05,000 Speaker 1: cleaned and I was like, that's definitely strange. And then 590 00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:07,520 Speaker 1: we kind of continued talking about it, and I, you know, 591 00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:09,880 Speaker 1: I had real empathy for you, but there was a 592 00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:13,040 Speaker 1: terrible situation. But if the painting comes off the stretcher 593 00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:15,640 Speaker 1: to be cleaned or repaired, that's something that you would 594 00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:19,160 Speaker 1: affect the value of the painting, not necessarily. So let's 595 00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:21,279 Speaker 1: say I had a Lesiu s. Gabbage. Someone came back 596 00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:23,239 Speaker 1: with Alsia s. Gabbage that I sold them in two 597 00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:27,279 Speaker 1: thousand one, and it had some schmutz on it. Right. 598 00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:31,360 Speaker 1: What I would do is I would have a conservator 599 00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:33,919 Speaker 1: look at it and recommend what needs to be done. 600 00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:36,440 Speaker 1: Cann be cleaned if you need to in pain? Is 601 00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:39,600 Speaker 1: there damage? Then I would call Lisa or her if 602 00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:42,040 Speaker 1: I didn't know her personally, I would call Swarner and 603 00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:45,640 Speaker 1: I would say I have this, and here's the situation. 604 00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:48,160 Speaker 1: Does Lisa want to look at it? And she would 605 00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:52,000 Speaker 1: either say yes or no, or they would say, um, 606 00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:53,799 Speaker 1: you know, she'd like to fix it herself. And if 607 00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:57,080 Speaker 1: she fixes it herself, it's not really going to be 608 00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:00,279 Speaker 1: um any kind of diminution in value because it's her, 609 00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:02,520 Speaker 1: you know, just making sure that her work is in 610 00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:04,239 Speaker 1: good shape. So or if she wanted to clean it, 611 00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:06,799 Speaker 1: that's not going to change anything except clean it. But 612 00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:09,719 Speaker 1: if she's then said, you know there's a terror in 613 00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:11,880 Speaker 1: it and it needs to be fixed, I recommend you 614 00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:14,040 Speaker 1: go to so and so to fix it, because they're 615 00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:16,319 Speaker 1: the best of my work. So now I have this 616 00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:21,160 Speaker 1: painting that is on consignment and it's been torn and sown, 617 00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:24,080 Speaker 1: and Lisa has opined on who needs to fix it, 618 00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:26,160 Speaker 1: and we've gotten it fixed and we spent six thousand 619 00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:28,600 Speaker 1: dollars fixing it. Whatever it is. Then when I go 620 00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:31,719 Speaker 1: to offer that painting to someone, I have to tell 621 00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:34,400 Speaker 1: them you can't see it, but right here, if you 622 00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:39,480 Speaker 1: look on the back, I do. Yes, there's a little 623 00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:42,759 Speaker 1: mark here. The artist has looked at it. The artist 624 00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:44,840 Speaker 1: has approved the work that was done on it and 625 00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:57,560 Speaker 1: chose the person to do it. But transparency more art 626 00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:01,799 Speaker 1: fraud in a minute. Look for your children's eyes to 627 00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:05,400 Speaker 1: see the true magic of a forest. It's a storybook 628 00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:08,560 Speaker 1: world for them. You look and see a tree, they 629 00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:11,920 Speaker 1: see the wrinkled face of a wizard with arms outstretched 630 00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:15,279 Speaker 1: to the sky, they see treasure and pebbles, they see 631 00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:18,439 Speaker 1: a windy path that could lead to adventure, and they 632 00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:23,080 Speaker 1: see you. They're fearless. Guide. Is this fascinating world? Find 633 00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:25,799 Speaker 1: a forest near you and start exploring a Discover the 634 00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:28,239 Speaker 1: Forest dot Org brought to you by the United States 635 00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:31,920 Speaker 1: Forest Service and the AD Council. Hey everyone, it's Bobby Brown. 636 00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:35,840 Speaker 1: You might know me as the makeup artist beauty expert. 637 00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:38,200 Speaker 1: You might also know me as the founder of Jones 638 00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:42,680 Speaker 1: Road Beauty. But today I'm here with a brand new podcast, 639 00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:46,360 Speaker 1: The Important Things. On this new podcast, I'll be joined 640 00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:50,040 Speaker 1: by my co host and dear friend, international best selling 641 00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:55,880 Speaker 1: author Attorney and Ted Talk along Angelie Kumar. Together, we 642 00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:58,759 Speaker 1: want to answer the question how can you lead a 643 00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:02,799 Speaker 1: life of fulfillment? The ongoing pandemic has given us all 644 00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:06,440 Speaker 1: the opportunity to examine what really matters most to us 645 00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:10,200 Speaker 1: and what brings us true contentment. Each week through candid 646 00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:15,000 Speaker 1: conversations with friends, thought leaders, creators, and entrepreneurs, Bobby and 647 00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:17,160 Speaker 1: I are looking for ways we can all learn to 648 00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:21,680 Speaker 1: live more authentic, gratifying lives. You can look forward to 649 00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:25,880 Speaker 1: learning from our amazing guests, including the incomparable Gloria steinem 650 00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:31,280 Speaker 1: entrepreneur and designer, Jennifer Fisher, Senator Corey Booker, charity founder 651 00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:35,600 Speaker 1: Christy Turlington Burns, and many many more. So join us 652 00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:38,200 Speaker 1: every other week as we dig deep into the stuff 653 00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:42,480 Speaker 1: that really matters on the important things. Listen to the 654 00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:45,719 Speaker 1: important things on the I Heart radio app, Apple podcasts 655 00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:51,000 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're live here 656 00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:54,400 Speaker 1: outside the Perez family home, just waiting for them. And 657 00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:57,600 Speaker 1: there they go, almost on time. This morning, Mom is 658 00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:00,200 Speaker 1: coming out the front door strong with a double armed 659 00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:02,840 Speaker 1: kid carry. Looks like Dad has the bags daughter he 660 00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:06,080 Speaker 1: is bringing up the rear. Oh but the diaper bag 661 00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:11,640 Speaker 1: wasn't closed. Diapers and toys are everywhere. Oh but Mom 662 00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:15,080 Speaker 1: has just nailed the perfect car seat buckle for the toddler. 663 00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:17,799 Speaker 1: And now the eldest daughter, who looks to be about 664 00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:20,759 Speaker 1: nine or ten, has secured herself in the booster seat. 665 00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:24,959 Speaker 1: Dad zips the bag clothes and they're off. But looks 666 00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:27,239 Speaker 1: like Mom doesn't realize her coffee cup is still on 667 00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:31,120 Speaker 1: the roof of the car and there it goes. Ah, 668 00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:34,520 Speaker 1: that's a shame that mug was a fan favorite. Don't 669 00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:37,080 Speaker 1: sweat the small stuff, just nailed the big stuff, like 670 00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:38,960 Speaker 1: making sure your kids are buckled correctly in the right 671 00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:41,120 Speaker 1: seat for their agent's eyes. Learn more n h t 672 00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:43,880 Speaker 1: s A dot gov slash the Right Seat visits h 673 00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:47,800 Speaker 1: s A dot gov slash the Right Seat brought to 674 00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:51,399 Speaker 1: you by NITZA and the ad Council Alec. What did 675 00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:53,960 Speaker 1: you think of that moment when Mary Ann first told 676 00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:56,719 Speaker 1: you your treasured seat and mere painting was at all 677 00:41:56,760 --> 00:42:00,279 Speaker 1: likelihood of fake Because that was really the moment. So 678 00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:02,560 Speaker 1: I gather that this hits home. How did that hit 679 00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:06,239 Speaker 1: you emotionally? Well, I think two things. One is, I 680 00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:08,759 Speaker 1: had to kind of sort out of my head what 681 00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:12,960 Speaker 1: Ross's involvement was, because I was very concerned about that 682 00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:17,080 Speaker 1: in any civil litigation. Now Ross wound up giving me 683 00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:20,720 Speaker 1: uh that he found up making me a fact simile 684 00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:22,759 Speaker 1: of seeing mirror that I have in my home. Now 685 00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:28,640 Speaker 1: I have the honest copy. I said, give me the 686 00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:31,439 Speaker 1: copy of the painting that is, and then he gave 687 00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:34,919 Speaker 1: me another painting to settle our dispute, if you will. 688 00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:39,479 Speaker 1: You know, it's a funny situation because I mean, yes, 689 00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:42,560 Speaker 1: it was a fraud, but it was a fraud enacted 690 00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:46,240 Speaker 1: by the painter who painted the original. See what's funny 691 00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:50,560 Speaker 1: is when in the litigation he made me the copy 692 00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:52,000 Speaker 1: of C and Mirror that I have in my home, 693 00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:56,440 Speaker 1: that is the genuine copy. Well, there it is. It's true. 694 00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:58,360 Speaker 1: When he wanted to put his mind to it and 695 00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:02,399 Speaker 1: get it right, he did. Yeah, that's really bizarre. When 696 00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:06,440 Speaker 1: the original painting arrives, it's not even close. But when 697 00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:09,600 Speaker 1: he's told to do it exactly the copy, it's very close. 698 00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:12,239 Speaker 1: It's it's pretty pretty spot on. Because you wonder how 699 00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:14,799 Speaker 1: many more copies of it are they're out there? If 700 00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:18,440 Speaker 1: he could so handily render facsimiles of cing Mirror, than 701 00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:20,919 Speaker 1: how many more were out there? How many more people 702 00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:23,319 Speaker 1: were told they were buying the original painting? How many 703 00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:26,680 Speaker 1: more canvases have wtten on the back and the bin 704 00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:31,040 Speaker 1: number that I had? But as I said, once we 705 00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:33,600 Speaker 1: wanted to open up a can of worms, which would 706 00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:38,040 Speaker 1: have discussed that, once we wanted to speak in court 707 00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:41,760 Speaker 1: about where else she might have done this. They settled 708 00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:46,600 Speaker 1: the case. You know, when all this went down, and 709 00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:50,440 Speaker 1: I had gone to the d A to investigate our 710 00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:53,719 Speaker 1: options and see what was going on. You know, one 711 00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:57,879 Speaker 1: aspect of it was that this was also unnecessary if 712 00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:02,400 Speaker 1: I had been someone who had had had some difficult 713 00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:05,840 Speaker 1: relationship with Mary. If there's been some friction between us, 714 00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:08,960 Speaker 1: especially in the art world, if wanting to settle a 715 00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:12,480 Speaker 1: score with me, get even with me. I didn't really 716 00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:16,160 Speaker 1: know Mary on a personal level, so there was really 717 00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:20,400 Speaker 1: nothing between us that engendered that kind of treatment. I 718 00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:22,879 Speaker 1: couldn't understand why she would do that to me. That's 719 00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:24,680 Speaker 1: that's what really really upset me. And then I thought 720 00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:27,200 Speaker 1: to myself, that's the whole point. You can walk in 721 00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:29,399 Speaker 1: as a very innocent person who just as a lover 722 00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:32,200 Speaker 1: of arts. I mean, I realized, I'm not spending tens 723 00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:34,839 Speaker 1: of millions of dollars on a on a Pollock. It's 724 00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:38,040 Speaker 1: not like the Lagrange case and and Friedman and Noodler 725 00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:40,440 Speaker 1: and all that kind of stuff. I'm a guy walking 726 00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:43,239 Speaker 1: in buying something in the high five figures the low 727 00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:46,000 Speaker 1: six figures. But I'm wondering, I'm assuming that some of 728 00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:47,880 Speaker 1: us are like some of the bread and butter of 729 00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:51,640 Speaker 1: that business. And and even if we aren't, what's the 730 00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:54,120 Speaker 1: amount of money I need to spend on the paving 731 00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:56,680 Speaker 1: for you to treat me fairly. If I walked in 732 00:44:56,719 --> 00:44:58,120 Speaker 1: the door and you said, let me just tell you 733 00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:01,799 Speaker 1: this privately, Mary, what's saying now? I'm going to sell 734 00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:04,759 Speaker 1: you a knockoff of bogus painting for the amount of 735 00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:08,080 Speaker 1: money you're willing to spend. But if you spend more money, 736 00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:10,320 Speaker 1: if you're willing to give me more money, I'll actually 737 00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:13,520 Speaker 1: go get you the painting you want. I won't rip 738 00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:16,080 Speaker 1: you off. I mean it was which was what did 739 00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:19,799 Speaker 1: I need to do to deserve the fair treatment? I 740 00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:29,879 Speaker 1: didn't understand any of why this happened. I guess I'll 741 00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:35,759 Speaker 1: never know. Alec. We started working on this podcast a 742 00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:38,040 Speaker 1: little over a year ago, and I remember at the 743 00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:42,160 Speaker 1: time you said that you believed and Freedman. Your opinion 744 00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:44,799 Speaker 1: was that she didn't know the paintings were fake and 745 00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:47,680 Speaker 1: she hadn't sold them as fakes, and I said I 746 00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:50,200 Speaker 1: felt just the opposite. And so I wonder, after a 747 00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:54,400 Speaker 1: whole year of immersing ourselves in this podcast and talking 748 00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:58,080 Speaker 1: to over two dozen experts, artists, lawyers, and journalists, have 749 00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:01,240 Speaker 1: your beliefs held firm? Do you still think a Freedman 750 00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:04,439 Speaker 1: had no idea she was complicit in a forgery scheme? Well, 751 00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:08,120 Speaker 1: I think that what has changed is this idea that 752 00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:12,200 Speaker 1: something hinges on everybody doing something they've never done before. 753 00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:15,480 Speaker 1: Whenever people walk into a room and there's a time 754 00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:18,200 Speaker 1: honored process they have as a protocol they have, and 755 00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:19,920 Speaker 1: all of a sudden they throw that out the window. 756 00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:23,279 Speaker 1: To the tune of tens of millions of dollars made, 757 00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:26,879 Speaker 1: seventy million dollars and fake aren't there was sold here 758 00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:31,000 Speaker 1: this gallery. There was no excuse. These people have no excuse, 759 00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:36,279 Speaker 1: and Friedman hammer everybody involved in this case. These were 760 00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:39,239 Speaker 1: the top people in the field. And what they didn't know. 761 00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:42,080 Speaker 1: They summoned experts to come in and aid them and 762 00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:45,400 Speaker 1: to counsel them on what to do. What I believe 763 00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:48,480 Speaker 1: now is Anne knew she shouldn't have done what she did, 764 00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:53,280 Speaker 1: but she pressed forward. Well, then, my friend, we are 765 00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:57,960 Speaker 1: in agreement. I really believe that people arrive at a 766 00:46:57,960 --> 00:47:01,319 Speaker 1: place and they believe only as it turns out that 767 00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:05,480 Speaker 1: there's no turning back. Turning back in their mind was 768 00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:08,560 Speaker 1: almost worse. They thought, let's see what happens if we 769 00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:11,879 Speaker 1: get away with it. And if they got away with it, 770 00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:15,319 Speaker 1: then everybody would be walking around staring at a fake 771 00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:19,920 Speaker 1: Rothco and everybody would be happy. Who know, right? Really, 772 00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:22,560 Speaker 1: the person I think who is the hammer that just 773 00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:26,080 Speaker 1: shatters the whole stone work of this thing is Lagrange. 774 00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:30,439 Speaker 1: When La Grange flies over here and has an apoplectic 775 00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:33,279 Speaker 1: fit against this woman, I mean, this is a guy 776 00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:35,840 Speaker 1: who's just not going to be denied. I agree with you. 777 00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:38,960 Speaker 1: And then also just the sheer number of fakes that 778 00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:40,799 Speaker 1: began to come forward. You know, you could believe a 779 00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:43,360 Speaker 1: couple of them lacked provenance, when you're up to forty 780 00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:46,920 Speaker 1: had all lacked provenance. This is something that occurred to 781 00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:50,080 Speaker 1: me when Fara came to speak with us, and that 782 00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:52,920 Speaker 1: is I thought, if this woman had gone into Anne 783 00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:56,440 Speaker 1: and she'd had the least bit of a whiff of 784 00:47:56,880 --> 00:48:03,120 Speaker 1: insincerity since of theater, or something being fabricated or false 785 00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:05,840 Speaker 1: about her when I met her, it all fell into place. 786 00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:08,160 Speaker 1: I thought, who could go in and do this to Anne? 787 00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:10,839 Speaker 1: Who could fool Anne? Who wouldn't have to be enough 788 00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:12,839 Speaker 1: to be somebody who she's like a school teacher, She's 789 00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:16,400 Speaker 1: like a kindergarten teacher. Yes, I think that very day 790 00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:20,200 Speaker 1: you said to me, you know, I believe her. You 791 00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:29,839 Speaker 1: didn't believe Anne, but you did believe Gofira. One thing 792 00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:33,640 Speaker 1: I know for sure. There were sixty or so fake 793 00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:36,920 Speaker 1: painting sold by the Wiseman and n Oldler galleries, and 794 00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:40,840 Speaker 1: it leaves me with a haunting thought, where are those 795 00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:46,920 Speaker 1: paintings today? We know the souls fake Rothko ended up 796 00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:51,600 Speaker 1: in Attorney Luke Nichols office a story to tell curious clients. 797 00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:56,760 Speaker 1: Francis babies. Fake Clifford still found its way to the basement, 798 00:48:57,200 --> 00:49:01,600 Speaker 1: only to get misplaced and free. Men's own fake Pollock 799 00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:04,719 Speaker 1: with the misspelled signature was still hanging in her home 800 00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:08,200 Speaker 1: last we heard. We also know a few of the 801 00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:12,000 Speaker 1: paintings made their way into legal proceedings from various lawsuits. 802 00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:16,160 Speaker 1: But what about the fifty or so others. How many 803 00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:20,080 Speaker 1: of those fakes have been sold very quietly by buyers 804 00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:23,680 Speaker 1: eager to expunge the stain of fraud from their walls, 805 00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:28,240 Speaker 1: Buyers who may have recouped their losses illegally. Of course, 806 00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:32,640 Speaker 1: perhaps they even profited, as Anne Friedman assured them they 807 00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:47,520 Speaker 1: would with paintings from the David Herbert collection. And that's 808 00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:50,920 Speaker 1: it for art fraud. Most of the listeners of this 809 00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:54,040 Speaker 1: show will never purchase a piece of fine art in 810 00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:57,960 Speaker 1: their lives. We hope you've enjoyed this show. Nonetheless, and 811 00:49:58,040 --> 00:50:01,200 Speaker 1: for those who are real collector. Remember, if you can 812 00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:06,960 Speaker 1: fool and Friedman, you can fool anyone. Kiss today you 813 00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:20,799 Speaker 1: could buy the sweetness and the sorrow. Wish me luck 814 00:50:21,160 --> 00:50:32,880 Speaker 1: the same tim you. But I can't regret what I 815 00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:44,239 Speaker 1: did for love, what I did for love. Look my 816 00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:50,839 Speaker 1: eyes are drum art. Fraud is brought to you by 817 00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:55,680 Speaker 1: My Heart Radio and Cavalry Audio. Our executive producers are 818 00:50:55,680 --> 00:51:01,000 Speaker 1: Matt del Piano, Keegan Rosenberger, Andy Turner, myself at Michael Shnayerson. 819 00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:05,480 Speaker 1: We're produced by Brandon Morgan and Zach McNeice. Zack also 820 00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:10,680 Speaker 1: edited and mixed this episode. Lindsay Hoffman is our managing producer. 821 00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:39,239 Speaker 1: However writer is Michael Schneerson. On a cold morning in 822 00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:43,200 Speaker 1: Sandy Beale was found shot to death in her car. 823 00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:47,040 Speaker 1: There's no way, it's just it's just no way that 824 00:51:47,239 --> 00:51:50,120 Speaker 1: it's going to be. Sandy's death was ruled a suicide, 825 00:51:50,280 --> 00:51:54,000 Speaker 1: but her family has always questioned the official story to 826 00:51:54,120 --> 00:51:56,440 Speaker 1: this day. They believe the police knew more than they 827 00:51:56,560 --> 00:51:59,920 Speaker 1: let on. I didn't take any of that crap because 828 00:52:00,040 --> 00:52:04,520 Speaker 1: I could tell that they were hiding something. Listen to 829 00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:07,640 Speaker 1: what happened to Sandy Beale on the I Heart Radio app, 830 00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:12,279 Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. When a 831 00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:16,160 Speaker 1: trivial accusation started on an anonymous internet forum, the Korean 832 00:52:16,200 --> 00:52:18,839 Speaker 1: hip hop star Tableau was at the top of his game, 833 00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:22,279 Speaker 1: but then rumors started to spread that he wasn't who 834 00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:25,680 Speaker 1: we said he was. I'm Dexter Thomas, the host of 835 00:52:25,719 --> 00:52:28,920 Speaker 1: a new podcast from Vice about a bizarre conspiracy. It 836 00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:35,520 Speaker 1: turned into an international obsession. Listen to Authentic the Story 837 00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:38,640 Speaker 1: of Tableau on the I Heart Radio apps, Apple podcast 838 00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:44,319 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. The Laundronauts a potentially 839 00:52:44,440 --> 00:52:48,680 Speaker 1: untrue tale based on actual events. A young boy is 840 00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:53,160 Speaker 1: shoved into a washing machine and vanishes. His friends try 841 00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:56,600 Speaker 1: to rescue him, only to discover a magical world beyond 842 00:52:56,680 --> 00:53:01,640 Speaker 1: the machine. Season one stars Ed Asner and Me John Cameron, 843 00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:06,520 Speaker 1: Mitchell Fine j D. Belzell and bring him back home safely. 844 00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:09,480 Speaker 1: Listen to The Landernauts on the I Heart Radio app, 845 00:53:09,600 --> 00:53:14,879 Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Yes,