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Speaker 1: I'm Noah. This is Devin in today's episode. A question

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Speaker 1: that nags at me every time I sit in one

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Speaker 1: of their chairs. Our dentists scamming us. We dig into

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Speaker 1: the dental industry surprisingly dark history.

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Speaker 2: A lot of the replacement teeth were from corpses.

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Speaker 1: We hear from someone who uncovered a dentist drilling healthy

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Speaker 1: teeth for profit.

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Speaker 3: How did I let this happen to me? Twenty eight

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Speaker 3: rout canals.

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Speaker 1: I must be stupid, and I talk with a startup

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Speaker 1: founder who's trying to blow up the entire industry.

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Speaker 4: Going to the dentist is one of the biggest scams

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Speaker 4: of our modern time.

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Speaker 5: I know there's no no touch thing, no touch, Thank touch,

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Speaker 5: thank touch, thank touch, thank.

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Speaker 1: All right, So in the studio today, we're joined by

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Speaker 1: a friend of the pod, a licensed therapist and a

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Speaker 1: writer of the Reality Test newsletter, Lily Caplin.

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Speaker 6: Hi, guys, going, I'm so happy to be back.

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Speaker 1: You may remember Lily from the Do I Need Therapy? Episode?

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Speaker 1: So we're glad to have you back for a discussion.

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Speaker 1: Has nothing to do with therapy. I love that, but really, actually,

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Speaker 1: specifically if we wanted you on this episode because at

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Speaker 1: many and me as baby shower. A few weeks ago,

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Speaker 1: at the after afters UH, we were all gathered around

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Speaker 1: the table and I was complaining about dentists in Sea, saying, Hey,

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Speaker 1: I think they're trying to scam me. I think dentist

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Speaker 1: or scammers. We had some other people in the group saying, yeah,

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Speaker 1: dentist are scamming us. And we had one dentist defender

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Speaker 1: at the table. We had one person who said, guys,

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Speaker 1: they're doing what they think is best. They care about

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Speaker 1: your oral care. They're trying to prevent things from getting worse.

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Speaker 1: And that was you, Lily. You were you were defending

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Speaker 1: the dentists, which was which was I thought an interesting

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Speaker 1: take to have, because like brave, dentists have, as we'll

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Speaker 1: talk about in this episode, a pretty negative reputation. But

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Speaker 1: you you came in there, you know, supporting them and

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Speaker 1: speaking up for them, get to the voiceless exactly.

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Speaker 6: So I think that my take on dentistry is a

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Speaker 6: bit of a defense, a bit of a yo yo

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Speaker 6: from where I used to sit. So I've struggled with

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Speaker 6: a bit more than a bit of what one might

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Speaker 6: call dentophobia throughout my life. So I've been super, super

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Speaker 6: super avoidant of dentists, which has caused some problems for

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Speaker 6: my teeth, and I had to get like a whole

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Speaker 6: bunch of work done on my mouth, which was pretty

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Speaker 6: painful and terrible, and I had to really overcome my

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Speaker 6: fear of dentists and going to the dentist. I find

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Speaker 6: it a very vulnerable experience to go to the dentist.

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Speaker 6: And yeah, so I think coming off of that, like

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Speaker 6: I was not, especially that night and probably still, I'm

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Speaker 6: not emotionally prepared to have the view that dentistry is

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Speaker 6: a scam because I was so far in the other

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Speaker 6: direction of like, I will not go to the dentist.

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Speaker 6: I cannot go to the dentist. I can't handle the dentist.

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Speaker 6: That the dentist did become truly necessary. And now I

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Speaker 6: would say I am of the mind that like, you

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Speaker 6: should go so that you don't end up like me.

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Speaker 1: Ago, Yeah, no, talk us through. What What are your

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Speaker 1: dentist interactions been like over the years.

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Speaker 7: Over the past few years? None, Okay, I'm going, I'm booked.

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Speaker 7: I'm booked to go soon. Long wait list, yes, which

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Speaker 7: which that was news to me because in the past

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Speaker 7: I've been able to hop right over there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, so I didn't have any trauma with I never

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Speaker 7: minded going, but I never It was just more of

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Speaker 7: an inconvenient thing to do. But I did feel like

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Speaker 7: my teeth were cleaner after.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So basically you're going for questions not regularly as we're.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, we're hearing it's more laziness than, you know, than

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Speaker 7: like a mistrust distrust.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So the reason we're doing this episode is because

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Speaker 1: of my experience with the dentists. For most of my

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Speaker 1: life up to up into high school, I had pretty

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Speaker 1: limited interactions with this. Never had cavities besides when I

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Speaker 1: was like a kid, so I was just going for

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Speaker 1: cleanings until my senior year of high school. Well, we're

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Speaker 1: transport ourselves to the bowling alley in New Jersey where

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Speaker 1: it's the final frame. It's me and my friends. We're

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Speaker 1: going head to head and I am tied for last place.

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Speaker 1: And if you're a bowling head, you know the one

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Speaker 1: rule of bowling with your friends is you don't want

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Speaker 1: to come in less. So I just need to hit

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Speaker 1: one to not come in last. So I said, okay,

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Speaker 1: I just don't just don't get a gutter ball. That's

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Speaker 1: pretty easy. I don't know why. In my mind, you know,

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Speaker 1: I think I want to be a little bit of

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Speaker 1: a jokester too, So I was like, let me let

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Speaker 1: me granny bullet. So are you familiar with brainy bowling?

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Speaker 6: Is that where you do it between your legs?

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Speaker 5: Yes?

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Speaker 1: Yes, you put two hands on the ball, you sort

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Speaker 1: of get your legs nice and wide, and you sort

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Speaker 1: of pull it the ball between your legs and then

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Speaker 1: push it out. So I did that and I slipped

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Speaker 1: fell on my face because my hands were up. Remember

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Speaker 1: when you rainy bowl your your hands are going sure,

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Speaker 1: so they're above my head and chipped three or four

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Speaker 1: of my teeth like on a on a diagonal. And

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Speaker 1: I know it sounds horrific. It did not hurt at all.

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Speaker 1: I knew immediately that my teeth came out because I

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Speaker 1: could feel there was a gap. But I wasn't bleeding

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Speaker 1: and there was no pain. And the worst part is

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Speaker 1: I went over the line. Yeah I was gonna ask

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Speaker 1: about that. So it didn't even count.

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Speaker 7: So lost you lost more than your four teeth?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Little did I know the trajectory of that would

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Speaker 1: put me on because replacing teeth is very, very expensive,

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Speaker 1: So even with insurance at the time, I ended up

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Speaker 1: having to spend like three or four grand out of

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Speaker 1: pocket for it. And the thing that people don't think

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Speaker 1: about when you get dental work is that it's not

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Speaker 1: a one and done. If you get teeth replaced, you

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Speaker 1: have to get those teef replaced if you get it

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Speaker 1: done right, like every ten years or so. So and

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Speaker 1: you're paying thousands of dollars every ten years or so

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Speaker 1: to get those teeth replaced. So I've gone in to

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Speaker 1: just replace the crown. But my dentist has been really

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Speaker 1: really trying to get me to replace all of my

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Speaker 1: fake teeth because she's like, I just want to do

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Speaker 1: them all, make it all. Look, you know, the color

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Speaker 1: will match better. I can make the match better. And

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Speaker 1: I was like, okay, theoretically that sounds fun. Like let's

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Speaker 1: find out how much is that gonna cost. She's like, okay,

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Speaker 1: they run through the insurance, they get anstipate. It's like

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Speaker 1: seven or eight grand. Okay, now let's just do the one.

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Speaker 7: They don't have like a bundle deal.

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Speaker 1: That's what I was thinking.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, I was like, you know, they're already all the

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Speaker 7: tools are out already.

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Speaker 1: Better if it's only gonna be slightly more expensive, you know,

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Speaker 1: like why not do it?

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Speaker 7: But then they're all on the same timeline.

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Speaker 1: Exactly, So I told them, Now then you know, they're

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Speaker 1: trying to convince me you can do a payment. I

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Speaker 1: was like, I don't care if it's paying it right

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Speaker 1: now or over a year. I don't want to pay

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Speaker 1: seminar eight grand on teeth just for fun. Yeah exactly. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Later it's like I'm still paying, so no, thank you.

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Speaker 1: So they, you know, they seem to get the message.

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Speaker 1: I come back. And the thing, when you're getting teeth

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Speaker 1: for place, you have to as you know, when you're

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Speaker 1: getting work done, you have to go in multiple times.

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Speaker 1: So I had to go in like three or four

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Speaker 1: times for this crown, and every time I would go in,

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Speaker 1: it was as if I had not had that conversation

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Speaker 1: with them that they were only doing the one tooth.

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Speaker 1: So they would down to the last time I was

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Speaker 1: going in to get my permanent in. The dentist was like, okay,

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Speaker 1: so this is going to take a bit longer because

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Speaker 1: we're doing you know, all these teeth, and I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: we're not. So it just felt and I had liked.

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Speaker 1: I've been going to this dentist for like two or

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Speaker 1: three years now. I'd liked that dentist up to this point,

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Speaker 1: but it just to me felt very scammy in a

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Speaker 1: way of that, like I've been very clear if you that,

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Speaker 1: and I was I was pulling that I can't afford it,

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Speaker 1: you know. I was like, that's going to shut it down,

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Speaker 1: Like you know, you could say whatever you want about

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Speaker 1: like the cosmetics of it. I was like, I can't

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Speaker 1: afford this right now. I just cannot afford to do it.

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Speaker 1: And the fact that they were still bringing it up

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Speaker 1: every single time, I was like, something's going on here.

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Speaker 1: And I have talked to other people who have been like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I've been going to the Dunets for years. It's been fine.

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Speaker 1: I go to this random dudist. He says, I have

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Speaker 1: all these cavities, So I had to get all these

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Speaker 1: cavities filled. So I guess with this episode, what I

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Speaker 1: wanted to look into is is there a dental standard?

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Speaker 1: What are dentists actually doing when they're in your mouth? Right?

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Speaker 1: How do they determine you need a cavity field? Right?

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Speaker 1: Is there some sort of standard or are they just freestyling.

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Speaker 1: And then I also want to deal with this idea

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Speaker 1: of dental insurance and why, with all these experiences that

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Speaker 1: I've had, I've always had dental insurance, and I'm still

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Speaker 1: paying thousands of dollars out of pocket. Why doesn't dental

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Speaker 1: insurance cover more of my oral care? So we're going

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Speaker 1: to take a break. I'm gonna get back and walk

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Speaker 1: you through my deep dive into the world of dentistry.

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Speaker 1: We'll hear about its history. I'll talk to a dentist

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Speaker 1: who found out a colleague was giving his patients unnecessary

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Speaker 1: root canales, and a chat with a guy who says

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Speaker 1: his startup will blow up the industry. All that. After

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Speaker 1: the break. All right, we're back. We have a lot

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Speaker 1: to get into in this episode. But first I wanted

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Speaker 1: to try to learn how the hell we got here,

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Speaker 1: so I called up journalists AJ Jacobs for a history lesson.

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Speaker 5: Well.

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Speaker 2: I like the premise because, for instance, I went to

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Speaker 2: the dentists and they told me I had to get

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Speaker 2: my tooth out, Like, how am I supposed to know

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Speaker 2: whether that's true?

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Speaker 1: Yes, So AJ used to write this column for this

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Speaker 1: magazine called Mental Flaws.

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Speaker 2: And the column was called the Bad Old Days, because

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Speaker 2: the premise was that the good old days were not good.

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Speaker 2: They were terrible. They were dangerous, they were racist, sexist, smelly,

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Speaker 2: they were just horrible, painful.

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Speaker 1: In every month he would cover a new topic. In

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Speaker 1: one of his most memorial months was when he covered dentistry.

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Speaker 2: You know, I don't like going to the dentist, but

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Speaker 2: I certainly don't like reading about the history of dentistry

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Speaker 2: because it is just horrible.

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Speaker 1: So let's say it's a seventeenth century you're having an

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Speaker 1: issue with one of your teeth. AJ said, you would

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Speaker 1: typically go to a barber surgeon.

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Speaker 2: Which was a combination of a barber and a surgeon,

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Speaker 2: and dentistry was often lumped in with surgery because you're

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Speaker 2: taking stuff out of the body that was basically surgery.

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Speaker 1: And an important thing to note is that during his

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Speaker 1: time period, doctors did not perform surgery, So the church

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Speaker 1: viewed surgery is being unclean because you were touching bodily fluids.

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Speaker 1: So barber surgeons were seen as being more similar to

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Speaker 1: something like a blacksmith. So back to our roleplay. If

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Speaker 1: you have a toothake naved rip your tooth out basically

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Speaker 1: with no anaesetic at all.

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Speaker 2: Or maybe they'd give you some whiskey.

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Speaker 1: Or something even weirder.

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Speaker 2: For some reason, in the seventeenth eighteenth century, medical practitioners

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Speaker 2: were obsessed with enemas. There's not a huge overlap between

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Speaker 2: your teeth and your butt, but they just were like,

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Speaker 2: let's shoot things off the butt and see if that

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Speaker 2: helps the teeth.

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Speaker 1: So barber surgeons were basically your best case scenario back then,

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Speaker 1: because there were also some straight up grifters.

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Speaker 2: There was this crazy genre of traveling dentists and they

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Speaker 2: were called toothpolers, and they were sort of like quack medicine,

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Speaker 2: and they would put on a show.

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Speaker 1: So they'd come to your town with music, they'd draw

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Speaker 1: a huge crowd and then they'd pull out your teeth.

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Speaker 2: And they would first bring up a shill, someone who

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Speaker 2: was on their team and who had a fake tooth

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Speaker 2: that they would pull out. But then people would volunteer

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Speaker 2: and pay whatever it was fifty cents and go, and

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Speaker 2: then they would pull out the.

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Speaker 1: Teeth, and these drifters would signal for the band to

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Speaker 1: play louder to drown out patient screams.

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Speaker 2: And it was a spectacle, you know, people, he really

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Speaker 2: came to watch it. People watched it. It was like

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Speaker 2: people loved executions. People back then, I mean sometimes now

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Speaker 2: are sadistic, voyeuristic, horrible people.

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Speaker 1: And there are some crazy stories about how these traveling

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Speaker 1: dentists try to one up one another.

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Speaker 2: One of the famous examples is that they would attach

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Speaker 2: a string to the tooth and then the dentist would

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Speaker 2: get on a horse and kick the horse to go

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Speaker 2: in an opposite direction, and that's how they pulled the

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Speaker 2: tooth out. Now, there is some evidence that was an

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Speaker 2: apocryphal and nyvy didn't happen a lot or even ever,

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Speaker 2: but that was the shot.

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Speaker 1: And the dentists would use these shows to sell.

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Speaker 2: The snake oil tooth ointments that were supposed to help.

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Speaker 1: Aj also told me about the dark history of dentures.

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Speaker 2: A lot of the replacement teeth were from corpses. So

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Speaker 2: in the nineteenth century there was something called Waterloo teeth,

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Speaker 2: and it was from the dead soldiers on the Waterloo

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Speaker 2: Battlefield and other battles. Scavengers would go and they would

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Speaker 2: take out the teeth and then dentists would put them in.

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Speaker 1: Growing up, you may have heard about George Washington having

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Speaker 1: false teeth.

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Speaker 2: The rumor is that it was wood, but that's not true.

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Speaker 2: Truth is much more disturbing that it was a combination

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Speaker 2: of things. It was partly animal ivory from elephants and hippopotamus,

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Speaker 2: but partly from enslaved people human teeth.

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Speaker 1: Aj says the transition from the quack based dentistry of

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Speaker 1: the past to the science back dentistry of today didn't

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Speaker 1: happen overnight, but there were incremental steps.

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Speaker 2: There were a few landmarks that really helped. One was

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Speaker 2: the invention of nitrous oxide, which was very helpful because

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Speaker 2: before you were just getting your teeth pulled with no anesthesia,

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Speaker 2: maybe a little whiskey.

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Speaker 1: And the germ theory was also another huge step forward.

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Speaker 2: Back before the germ theory, these dentists would go in

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Speaker 2: with their dirty hands and they would cause more infections

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Speaker 2: than if they just left it b So it was

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Speaker 2: a gradual thing, learning about germs, learning about pain management.

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Speaker 1: And also the idea of prevention became a lot more popularized.

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Speaker 2: The idea of brushing your teeth and even flossing.

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Speaker 1: AJA also took a look at how culturally we viewed

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Speaker 1: dentists over the years.

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Speaker 2: If you google historical dentist illustrations you'll see, you know,

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Speaker 2: they look like these distic monsters pulling teeth out, And

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Speaker 2: I think that that reputation has continued. Like in pop culture,

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Speaker 2: there's Marathon Man, who is this sadistic Nazi dentist.

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Speaker 8: A life, freshly cut nerve is infinitely more sensitive.

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Speaker 5: So I'll just go into a healthy tooth until I

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Speaker 5: reached the pose.

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Speaker 2: There's Steve Martin who was in the Little Shop of

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Speaker 2: Horrors and like that song, He's got an entire song

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Speaker 2: about how much he loves inflicting pain on other people.

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Speaker 3: Peteple will pay you.

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Speaker 9: To be in humane.

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Speaker 2: There's a line in when Harry met Sally when Meg

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Speaker 2: Ryan says that her boyfriend's name is Sheldon, and Billy

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Speaker 2: Crystal's like, well, he's not going to be a good lover.

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Speaker 1: No, No, you did not have great sets with Sheldon.

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Speaker 1: I did too, No, you did. Sheldon can do your

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Speaker 1: income taxes if you need a root canal, Sheldon shumans,

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Speaker 1: But humping and pumping is not sheldon strong suit.

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Speaker 2: So the poor dentists get beat up on a lot. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and some of them I'm sure deserve it, because some

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Speaker 2: I'm sure are still quacks and doing things they shouldn't,

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Speaker 2: but I do believe a lot of them are out

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Speaker 2: to make us healthier and make our teeth less painful.

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Speaker 1: So that is the history of dentistry. Fast forward to today.

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Speaker 1: Like I said, I am someone who has spent a

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Speaker 1: lot of time going to the dentists over the last

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Speaker 1: couple of years. And one of my biggest issues with

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Speaker 1: the dentists is that it is so damn expensive. Right, So,

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Speaker 1: a new study found that nearly one in three young

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Speaker 1: adults have skipped it dentist in the past year because

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Speaker 1: of cost. And one of the most frustrating things for

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Speaker 1: me about dental care is that it is so expensive

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Speaker 1: even if you have insurance. So I want to find

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Speaker 1: out why the hell dental insurance does not cover more.

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Speaker 1: So I call up somebody who cares about this a lot.

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Speaker 9: I'm Sarah Stufan. I'm a general dentist in Iowa.

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Speaker 1: So doctor Sarah is also a dental insurance expert and

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Speaker 1: a spokesperson for the American Dental Association otherwise known as

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Speaker 1: the ADA. She says, I am not alone in being

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Speaker 1: confused by how little dental insurance actually covers.

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Speaker 9: When we talk about patient satisfaction, and we talk about

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Speaker 9: frustration and cost of care. This hits the nail on

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Speaker 9: the head of what I hear from my patients is

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Speaker 9: that they have some sort of dental benefit and they

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Speaker 9: have expectations of what it's going to do for them,

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Speaker 9: and then it turns out it's not not meeting those expectations.

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Speaker 9: What we've seen with dental insurance over the past twenty

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Speaker 9: years is that, you know, dental insurance has an annual maximum,

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Speaker 9: and those maximums haven't changed.

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Speaker 1: So to break this down, most dental plans have what's

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Speaker 1: called an annual maximum, which is the maximum amount the

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Speaker 1: insurance company will pay towards any care for the year.

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Speaker 1: Over the last twenty years, that number hasn't really changed.

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Speaker 1: And that's despite rising healthcare costs and inflation. So the

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Speaker 1: value of your dental insurance, say twenty years ago, is

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Speaker 1: not the same as it is today. Another way of

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Speaker 1: thinking about this is if I gave you one hundred

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Speaker 1: bucks to go to a grocery store in two thousand

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Speaker 1: and six, how much would that get you versus one

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Speaker 1: hundred dollars at the grocery store in twenty six.

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Speaker 9: And that's frustrating because the idea and the expectation behind

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Speaker 9: dental insurance is similar to most people base their experiences

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Speaker 9: off of medical.

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Speaker 1: But it turns out tental insurance is nothing like medical insurance.

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Speaker 9: Dental insurance I think of more like a coupon. So right,

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Speaker 9: and there's normally, you know, in the bottom of that

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Speaker 9: cupon there was a bunch of uh, there's a bunch

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Speaker 9: of asterisks like limitations and waiting periods and all these things.

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Speaker 9: So when you get to the checkout, you find out

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Speaker 9: that coupon isn't as great as you thought it was

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Speaker 9: going to be.

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Speaker 6: I mean, all this work that I spoke about, my

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Speaker 6: insurance covered like zero of it, Like it was thousands

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Speaker 6: and thousands of dollars, which I mean, just hearing that

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Speaker 6: just honestly made me feel tired.

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Speaker 5: No, it just sucks.

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Speaker 6: It makes me really angry. Yeah, it's like it's such

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Speaker 6: a it's a it's a promise like insurance insurance. The

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Speaker 6: word insurance is a promise that you will be insured

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Speaker 6: against something bad happening. But if something actually bad happens,

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Speaker 6: like your dental insurance covers like what one two cleanings

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Speaker 6: a year, it doesn't ensure you if something bad happens

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Speaker 6: that happens, you're paying for it.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Sarah says the ada's ideal dental plan has no

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Speaker 1: annual maximum because.

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Speaker 9: If you have some sort of problem that's beyond you know,

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Speaker 9: say that one crown or that one crown or root canal,

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Speaker 9: is it right for a patient to say, Okay, I'm

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Speaker 9: going to wait on that until next year.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 9: When we're talking about health, this is this is health.

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Speaker 9: Somehow we've disconnected the mouth from the rest of the body,

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Speaker 9: but healthy mouth is part of a healthy body.

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Speaker 1: So the ADA is working on insurance reforms at both

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Speaker 1: the state and federal level.

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Speaker 9: And one of the big things when you talk about

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Speaker 9: value for care is called dental loss ratio, which is

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Speaker 9: basically the amount of your premium dollars that actually get

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Speaker 9: spent towards care versus administration of the plan and things

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Speaker 9: like that, and that already exists on the full side.

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Speaker 1: Under the Affordable Care Act, medical insurance companies have to

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Speaker 1: spend between eighty and eighty five percent of premium dollars

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Speaker 1: on your actual care. Where there's no federal regulation on

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Speaker 1: dental insurance. So I was actually able to find one

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Speaker 1: insurance company in West Virginia who had a dentist loss

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Speaker 1: ratio as low as thirty six percent.

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Speaker 9: So some plans are putting a very low percentage of

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Speaker 9: what you're paying for a premium actually into your care.

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Speaker 1: So where's most of that money, like you're saying, is

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Speaker 1: going well towards administrative cost and just profit.

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Speaker 9: Right, we think it's important that patients their actual their

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Speaker 9: premium dollars are going towards care rights. And that's the

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Speaker 9: expectation for our patients, is that it's going towards care.

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Speaker 7: It is like, this is exactly what people fear, is

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Speaker 7: what's happening. Yeah, yeah, and it's right right under our eyes.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, I can't say I'm surprised. Yeah, it

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Speaker 6: is an expectation that I would like to have, but

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Speaker 6: it's not an expectation that I've had for any kind

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Speaker 6: of insurance on it.

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Speaker 1: All, Right, So that's the insurance portion of this, And

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Speaker 1: insurance is going to be a reoccurring thing that comes

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Speaker 1: up in this conversation, so just keep that in the

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Speaker 1: back of your mind. But let's talk about care. Right.

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Speaker 1: So I've been going to the dentist for over thirty

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Speaker 1: years now. I'm still not quite sure what they're doing

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Speaker 1: in my mouth, So I called up doctor Sharlyn Pizzulo.

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Speaker 10: I am a general dentist and a clinical associate professor

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Speaker 10: at NYU Dental School.

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Speaker 1: So the recommendation is that you go to the dentist

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Speaker 1: twice a year for checkups and cleanings, and at one

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Speaker 1: of those checkups they're usually going to do some X rays.

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Speaker 10: So then when we look at those, we look at

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Speaker 10: a couple of things. I'm looking at kind of like

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Speaker 10: if I see any infection in the roots of your teeth.

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Speaker 1: Which might indicate you need a root canal.

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Speaker 10: I'm looking at old fellings that you've had or crowned

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Speaker 10: or things like that, to see how they're looking that

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Speaker 10: there's nothing compromising them.

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Speaker 1: They're checking bone levels to make sure that your teeth

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Speaker 1: have a good foundation, and they're also checking for cavities.

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Speaker 10: We could see the different layers of your teeth, so

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Speaker 10: there's enamel, there's dentin. If I see those shadows going

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Speaker 10: past that first layer, that enamel layer, then definitely I'm

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Speaker 10: recommending that we do a filling.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Shearlyn says, this is where things can get tricky.

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Speaker 10: Sometimes you might get recommended to get more fillings and

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Speaker 10: you're used and you're like what is happening here? Depending

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Speaker 10: on that dentist practice or beliefs, they might do fillings

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Speaker 10: on enamel lesions is what they're called, like enamel cavities,

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Speaker 10: like these little shadows that only are in the first

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Speaker 10: layer because they argue like, oh, we should just get

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Speaker 10: rid of it now so it doesn't get any bigger.

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Speaker 1: But research shows that these early stage cavities can actually

436
00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:54,119
Speaker 1: be reversed if you take proper care of your teeth

437
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:55,520
Speaker 1: and use things like fluoride.

438
00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:59,439
Speaker 10: So I'm a pretty conservative dentist in that way where

439
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:02,920
Speaker 10: I don't like to drill a person's tooth unless it's

440
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:04,200
Speaker 10: really really necessary.

441
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:07,760
Speaker 1: So is there no standard in terms of like, hey,

442
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:10,680
Speaker 1: let's get all the dentists together and say we are

443
00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:14,280
Speaker 1: not going to fill someone's cavities unless they do X.

444
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:17,920
Speaker 1: It seems like there's a lot of like personal discretion.

445
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:18,760
Speaker 1: There is.

446
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:23,639
Speaker 10: There is a standard, and that we teach in dental school,

447
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:25,480
Speaker 10: because I teach in a dental school where we teach

448
00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:29,359
Speaker 10: our students is fundamentally that if it is again like

449
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:33,359
Speaker 10: I said, if the cavity has progressed past that first layer,

450
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:36,280
Speaker 10: that enamel layer of your tooth, once it's gotten to

451
00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:38,639
Speaker 10: the dentin, which is the second layer of your tooth.

452
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,879
Speaker 10: Then you really need to you need to do something

453
00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:45,560
Speaker 10: to get in there, take out the decay and fill

454
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:47,480
Speaker 10: it up with the like kind of seal it so

455
00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 10: that you know it doesn't progress, because once it gets

456
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:52,560
Speaker 10: that layer, it not only moves quicker, but it really

457
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:54,960
Speaker 10: can't be reversed. And you know, once you get past

458
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:57,120
Speaker 10: that layer, you're getting into the nerves of your tooth,

459
00:25:57,119 --> 00:25:59,679
Speaker 10: which is where like rue canal, that discussion comes up.

460
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:05,760
Speaker 10: I've seen patients firsthand, though, be able to reverse cavities

461
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:07,160
Speaker 10: in the first layer of the tooth.

462
00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:09,960
Speaker 1: She says she could understand an argument for drilling this

463
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 1: early if a patient just refuses to take care of

464
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 1: their teeth.

465
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:13,679
Speaker 9: Some patients will.

466
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:14,720
Speaker 10: Tell me like, I'm not going to do it, dog

467
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:16,840
Speaker 10: like straight up, like I don't care. I got a

468
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:19,080
Speaker 10: lot going on. I only brush once a day. If

469
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:21,080
Speaker 10: that so, then I'd be like, all right, maybe then

470
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 10: we should do this.

471
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:25,399
Speaker 1: Right, But she says even in those cases, it's a

472
00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 1: discussion and she's not just drilling just because. But not

473
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:31,159
Speaker 1: all dentists follow that logic.

474
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:35,040
Speaker 10: I actually recall before I was a dentist, I was

475
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:37,600
Speaker 10: like you know, in college or something, and I went

476
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:40,040
Speaker 10: and I had never had cavities my whole life. I

477
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 10: was really good about it. I always knew I wanted

478
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:43,159
Speaker 10: to be a dentist since I was like fourteen, So

479
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:46,120
Speaker 10: I was that girl. So I went to a new

480
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:49,119
Speaker 10: dentist and they told me I had like four cavities,

481
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 10: and I literally cried in the chair. I was like, no,

482
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 10: this can't be, Like, I know, how has this happened?

483
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:57,439
Speaker 10: And now that I look at my X rays, I

484
00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:00,199
Speaker 10: don't think I really needed those. I think they are

485
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:03,119
Speaker 10: very tiny. I think they could have been reversed. But

486
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,119
Speaker 10: you know, I guess that dentist for whatever reason, and

487
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:08,760
Speaker 10: I'm not going to, like, you know, bash him. But

488
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:13,760
Speaker 10: some people do over treatment plan for various reasons. I

489
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 10: hope that a lot of them are because they really

490
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 10: feel like it's the right thing to do. But I

491
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:20,600
Speaker 10: am sure, and I do know that a lot of

492
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:24,560
Speaker 10: people do it for you know, insurance purposes and being

493
00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:26,399
Speaker 10: able to collect. You know, it is a business at

494
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:28,280
Speaker 10: the end of the day with for a lot of people.

495
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:30,720
Speaker 10: I don't know my own practice, so I have a

496
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:34,439
Speaker 10: completely different mindset in that way. But unfortunately, some people

497
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 10: do get they change over the years when they're trying

498
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:41,239
Speaker 10: to you know, build their practice. They have employees, they

499
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:44,240
Speaker 10: have a family, so there's usually good reason, but still

500
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:47,600
Speaker 10: at the expense sometimes of maybe what is the ultimate

501
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 10: best thing for the patient.

502
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 3: Wow.

503
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:55,360
Speaker 1: I was kind of shocked. Doctor Sherylyn was just outright like, yeah,

504
00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:58,640
Speaker 1: there are some dentists who were just failing cavities for fun, essentially,

505
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:01,240
Speaker 1: not for fun, but because they want the insurance money.

506
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:04,000
Speaker 1: So I did I ask bec or Sarah about this.

507
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:07,560
Speaker 1: You know, she's like, you're a round table. Now she's

508
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:11,200
Speaker 1: a spokesperson for the ADA. This is a pretty big accuation.

509
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:13,760
Speaker 1: I didn't just want to take one word for it.

510
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 1: So here's what she had to say.

511
00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:19,200
Speaker 9: I think in any profession, there's probably going to be

512
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:24,040
Speaker 9: a few bad apples, right. I personally feel that dentists

513
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:30,360
Speaker 9: generally are wanting to do what's best for their patients.

514
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 1: So I started looking around because I wanted to see

515
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:40,720
Speaker 1: just how often dentists are ripping off their patients. Unsurprisingly,

516
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 1: I couldn't find any hard data, but I did come

517
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:48,560
Speaker 1: across some antidotes like this journalists in nineteen ninety seven

518
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 1: for Readers Digests, he sent his X rays to fifty

519
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 1: different dentists. The journalists had already known that he needed

520
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:59,280
Speaker 1: maybe two crowns that would cost him up to fifteen

521
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 1: hundred dollars, but the estimates that he got were all

522
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:06,840
Speaker 1: over the place. Six dentists said he needed at least

523
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:10,480
Speaker 1: eleven crowns, and four dentists said he needed at least

524
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 1: twenty one crowns, which would cost him up to thirty

525
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:18,240
Speaker 1: thousand dollars. And more recently, it came across an article

526
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:21,320
Speaker 1: from the Atlantic from twenty nineteen in which journalist Farris

527
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 1: Jabber questions just how scientific dentistry really is. He lays

528
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:30,080
Speaker 1: out the case that dentistry has created quote both the

529
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 1: opportunity and motive for widespread over treatment. Here's Ferris on

530
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:37,520
Speaker 1: the podcast in twenty twenty one.

531
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 11: Most doctors will end up working for a large healthcare

532
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 11: organization or a hospital with quite a bit of oversight,

533
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,440
Speaker 11: But the vast majority of dentists in the US open

534
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:50,720
Speaker 11: up their own practices, so they mostly answer to themselves.

535
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 11: There are ethical guidelines and codes that they're supposed to follow,

536
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 11: but there isn't somebody looking over their shoulder day to day.

537
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:02,600
Speaker 1: I emailed in DMS Faris multiple times to interview him

538
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:04,880
Speaker 1: for this episode, but he didn't get back to me.

539
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 1: But I was able to chat with someone at the

540
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:09,880
Speaker 1: heart of Ferris' reporting.

541
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 3: The journalist, you know, Ferris Jabberer. I don't know how

542
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:16,560
Speaker 3: you say his last name, but I don't subscribe to

543
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:21,000
Speaker 3: anything to his opinion of dentistry or dentist in general.

544
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 1: That is doctor Brandon Ziedler, who is a dentist in California.

545
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:29,160
Speaker 1: And no, he is not the fat guy in his story.

546
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 1: Let's rewind a bit to the twenty ten killed Osama

547
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 1: bin Laden.

548
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 3: At the time, I was much younger, you know. I

549
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 3: was working maybe three days a week and I was

550
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 3: looking to work five.

551
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 1: So doctor Brandon was looking to take over another practice,

552
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 1: the mayor.

553
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 3: You can't just put up a Sinus's dentist and expect

554
00:30:57,400 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 3: people to walk through the door. You kind of have

555
00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:01,160
Speaker 3: to take over someone that was retiring.

556
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 1: So a broker he had worked with before put him

557
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:06,320
Speaker 1: in touch with doctor Luhn, who was looking for someone

558
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:09,200
Speaker 1: to buy his practice so that he could retire.

559
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:10,880
Speaker 3: And it was about a mile and a half away,

560
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 3: and I figured this would compliment my practice perfectly.

561
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 1: Things were looking great, like Lynn's practice was bringing in

562
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:20,120
Speaker 1: a good amount of money. It was nearby. Doctor brand

563
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:22,240
Speaker 1: didn't only a day or two to make a decision

564
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 1: because the market in the Bay is very competitive, so

565
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 1: he tried to do his due diligence by looking through

566
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 1: Lune's patients records.

567
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 3: It's pretty difficult if there's several hundred charts and you

568
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:35,960
Speaker 3: have an hour or so to go through the charts,

569
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 3: you're just randomly selected.

570
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:40,080
Speaker 1: Doctor Brandon ultimately decided to pull the trigger and he

571
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:41,200
Speaker 1: bought the practice.

572
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 3: I just had confidence that this could be a good

573
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 3: fit for me, so I purchased a practice and in

574
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 3: February of twenty twelve, I took over and I just,

575
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 3: you know, decided that I'd start meeting the patients, getting

576
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 3: to know them like I did my first practice.

577
00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 1: But within that first month he started to figure it

578
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:00,920
Speaker 1: that some thing was off.

579
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 3: I don't remember the numbers exactly, but if it had

580
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:05,840
Speaker 3: been eighty thousand dollars a production a month, it was

581
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 3: around like fifteen thousand.

582
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 1: So in other words, doctor Brannon was doing a lot

583
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:12,280
Speaker 1: less work on these patients than doctor Loan was.

584
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:14,720
Speaker 3: I was thinking, maybe I'm doing something wrong, Like where

585
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:18,280
Speaker 3: am I going wrong here. Well, then the second month

586
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:20,520
Speaker 3: was similar, the third month was similar.

587
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 1: And as he started seeing more and more of LUN's

588
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:26,480
Speaker 1: former patients, he started noticing something was off.

589
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:30,400
Speaker 3: I would look in their mouths and you know, scan

590
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 3: really really well, and I couldn't find anything wrong with

591
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 3: their mouth. And then they would stand up and be like,

592
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:39,520
Speaker 3: are you sure that you looked closely enough? I don't

593
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 3: think you're looking closely enough. So then I'm now starting

594
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:44,560
Speaker 3: to second guess myself again. And then they'd go it

595
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:47,280
Speaker 3: up and go to the front office staff member that

596
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 3: I had that also worked for the previous dentists was like,

597
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 3: I don't know that this dentist is, you know, looking

598
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 3: closely enough. I don't trust his diagnostic abilities.

599
00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 1: Doctor Brannon also started to notice a disturbing pattern.

600
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:02,280
Speaker 3: I was looking at the patients, you know, I was

601
00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:04,719
Speaker 3: starting to see a very high number of root canals,

602
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:08,240
Speaker 3: a very high number of crowns, and so that was

603
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 3: another red flag for me. Started to put two and

604
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:14,840
Speaker 3: two together and I and that's when I'm you know,

605
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:17,000
Speaker 3: it was probably maybe six or seven months in. I

606
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 3: was like, this is not me. I'm not doing anything wrong.

607
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 3: You know this there was something that was not done

608
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:26,160
Speaker 3: above board here on these.

609
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:29,600
Speaker 1: Patients, and he decided he needed to take a closer look.

610
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 1: So over the next year, he looked at all of

611
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:36,200
Speaker 1: doctor Loehne's former patients, going through every single procedure that

612
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:39,880
Speaker 1: he had performed over the previous five years.

613
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:43,200
Speaker 3: Then I started to create a big spreadsheet because I

614
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:48,240
Speaker 3: knew that spreadsheet was important as far as percentages of

615
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 3: treatment to see how far this dentist was from the norm.

616
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 1: For example, Lund loved to give root canals. Fifty of

617
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:59,800
Speaker 1: his patients had fifteen or more root canals, with one

618
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 1: patient getting twenty four. Typical person is only getting one

619
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:07,040
Speaker 1: to two root canals in their lifetime. Looking through the

620
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:09,759
Speaker 1: numbers that you you have in terms of you know,

621
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 1: usually if there's a crown, I think you said, there's

622
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:15,880
Speaker 1: usually thirty percent seven percent chance that you're going to

623
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:18,360
Speaker 1: correct perform a root canal. And he was in correct

624
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:21,319
Speaker 1: ninety percent in some cases, So like correct and this

625
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:23,879
Speaker 1: is not like a difference of opinion if it would

626
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:25,080
Speaker 1: have been like ten or fifteen.

627
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:27,360
Speaker 3: Every day I get a patient coming in my office,

628
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 3: you know, could be a new patient, right, and I

629
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:31,920
Speaker 3: don't know a lot of times I don't agree with

630
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:35,160
Speaker 3: that the other dentists did, but that's a difference of opinion, yeah, right,

631
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:37,959
Speaker 3: and me and one of my patients could move or leave, right, Yeah,

632
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:39,879
Speaker 3: And that dentis may not agree with what I did,

633
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:43,080
Speaker 3: but being in the ninety percentile range when it should

634
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:46,880
Speaker 3: be in the three to seven percentile range is way

635
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:48,040
Speaker 3: outside norm.

636
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:51,680
Speaker 1: And if that wasn't bad enough, Lun was also charging

637
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:56,640
Speaker 1: patients insurance for work he never actually did. After seeing

638
00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:00,799
Speaker 1: just how widespread this overtreatment was, Brennan felt like he

639
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:02,319
Speaker 1: had to do something about it.

640
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 3: And then I started talking to them one by one.

641
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:09,239
Speaker 3: Some were already well aware, some had suspicions, and.

642
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:13,360
Speaker 1: So doctor Brandon, along with several of LUN's former patients,

643
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:17,560
Speaker 1: ended up suing him. There were some settlements. Lon's insurance

644
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 1: had some big payouts. Loun never admitted to any wrongdoing,

645
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:26,120
Speaker 1: but he was arrested in twenty fifteen and charged with

646
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 1: dozens of felonies for insurance fraud, and he eventually ended

647
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 1: up surrendering his dental license in twenty twenty three.

648
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:35,440
Speaker 3: A lot of them were like, I'm so stupid. How

649
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:37,759
Speaker 3: could I be so dumb? I can't either, and I

650
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:39,839
Speaker 3: would say to them, this is not about intelligence. This

651
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:43,800
Speaker 3: is betrayal of trust. Like that's what it boils down to.

652
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:46,279
Speaker 3: It has nothing patient be like I've had all these

653
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:47,960
Speaker 3: How did I let this happen to me? Twenty eight

654
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:50,840
Speaker 3: rou canals I must be stupid and says betrayal of trust.

655
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:53,200
Speaker 3: You go to someone for all these years, dry doctor,

656
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:59,359
Speaker 3: this person betrayed your trust. Yeah, and that's hard for

657
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:04,400
Speaker 3: some people to swallow. There's you know, you know in relationships,

658
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 3: there's some spouses that have infidelity and one's spouse may

659
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:11,919
Speaker 3: know but doesn't want to bring up that topic because

660
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:13,759
Speaker 3: it's the betrayal of They don't want to, they don't

661
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:15,919
Speaker 3: want to deal with it. They can't handle it psychologically.

662
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:19,920
Speaker 1: But despite what doctor Brannon went through, he says he

663
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:23,320
Speaker 1: thinks this type of overtreatment is extremely rare.

664
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:25,840
Speaker 3: I think in any profession, no matter what you go into,

665
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:31,760
Speaker 3: you know, law enforcement or medicine or you know, lawyer's attorneys, whatever,

666
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:34,959
Speaker 3: I feel like ten percent I think cross the line.

667
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:37,359
Speaker 3: I think no matter what profession are going to, you're

668
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:39,000
Speaker 3: going to run into people that do the wrong thing,

669
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:42,279
Speaker 3: that don't do the right thing. And I felt like

670
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:47,440
Speaker 3: that article in particular kind of led the reader perhaps

671
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 3: to believe that there's a much higher percentage, say, in

672
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:55,319
Speaker 3: dentistry than any other profession. But in reality, I've been

673
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:58,080
Speaker 3: doing dentistry twenty years now. I have a brother that's

674
00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:00,400
Speaker 3: been doing it twenty five and a father that's has

675
00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:03,480
Speaker 3: been a dentist for fifty seven years. And when you

676
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:06,799
Speaker 3: combine the three of us together, that's that's a lot

677
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:09,319
Speaker 3: of experience, and it's a lot of colleagues, a lot

678
00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:13,120
Speaker 3: of other professors, other people in the profession that we've

679
00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:16,439
Speaker 3: come in contact with, and I and them have never

680
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 3: seen anything like that.

681
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:21,880
Speaker 1: Do you feel like there needs to be something done

682
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:26,160
Speaker 1: more on just the you know, a more nationwide level

683
00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:28,360
Speaker 1: in terms of dentists and holding them accountable.

684
00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:31,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's you know, people always ask I don't I don't.

685
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 3: I think the profession would be completely different if it

686
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 3: was big brother was watching, right. I think I think

687
00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 3: that would be hard to be a dentist. I think

688
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:41,120
Speaker 3: less people would want to be a dentist. I mean,

689
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:44,200
Speaker 3: there's a certain amount of ethics and integrity we're supposed

690
00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:46,680
Speaker 3: to have. There's a similar to a Hippocratic oath that

691
00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:50,440
Speaker 3: we take as a dentist. I don't you know, I

692
00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 3: mean like a governing body of some sort. You mean, right,

693
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:56,920
Speaker 3: like say the IRS for taxes or yes, I mean

694
00:37:56,960 --> 00:37:59,160
Speaker 3: we have There is the dental board, and the dental

695
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 3: board has one primary goal, and it is nothing but

696
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:05,320
Speaker 3: to protect the patient.

697
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:08,640
Speaker 1: So my first thought after reading this story is how

698
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:11,480
Speaker 1: do you not become that person who has all this

699
00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:15,000
Speaker 1: unnecessary work done. This is my recommendation, This is doctor

700
00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:16,040
Speaker 1: Sarah Ada.

701
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:20,640
Speaker 9: If your gut tells you that something's up, go get

702
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:27,759
Speaker 9: another opinion. In general, dentistry is not emergent. There are

703
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:30,799
Speaker 9: definitely some emergent situations where you need to make a

704
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:34,000
Speaker 9: decision that day, but most of the time you can

705
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:36,600
Speaker 9: take home the information and you can sleep on it.

706
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:40,799
Speaker 1: And this advice was also shared by doctor Charylyn. But

707
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:43,880
Speaker 1: as you'll hear, I don't like this advice.

708
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:46,520
Speaker 10: If it feels like it's weird, I would take a

709
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:48,319
Speaker 10: step back as a patient, be like, let me think

710
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:50,719
Speaker 10: about this before we move forward, and you can get

711
00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:51,520
Speaker 10: a second opinion.

712
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:54,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was going to say, how do you so

713
00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:57,400
Speaker 1: I get a little bit frustrated with this feedback of

714
00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:02,560
Speaker 1: like get a second opinions. How usually when this is happening.

715
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:05,640
Speaker 1: You're going for your check up, right, your dentist is saying, hey,

716
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:08,040
Speaker 1: you need to get this thing done. I can do

717
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:11,920
Speaker 1: it now, right, And you know, part of what I

718
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:14,480
Speaker 1: goes through my mind is like, Okay, to get a

719
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:17,760
Speaker 1: second opinion, I need to go search and find another dentist.

720
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:19,879
Speaker 1: And what if they say the exact same thing. Now

721
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:22,480
Speaker 1: I'm paying out of pocket because my insurance is not

722
00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:26,120
Speaker 1: going to pay for that second appointment if I've already

723
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:29,480
Speaker 1: you know, used it up for a year. So yeah,

724
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:32,239
Speaker 1: is there just like no good options outside of like,

725
00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:33,920
Speaker 1: you know, go get somebody else to give you X

726
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:35,400
Speaker 1: rays and give your opinion.

727
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:38,640
Speaker 10: You don't have to necessarily take x rays again. You

728
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:41,920
Speaker 10: could take your records from the office you went to,

729
00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:44,400
Speaker 10: so like that would save you because those records are yours,

730
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:46,600
Speaker 10: like you paid for them. So you'd ask them like, hey,

731
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:48,880
Speaker 10: could you give me my records and they have to

732
00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:51,440
Speaker 10: give it to you, so you could take those too

733
00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:54,920
Speaker 10: a different office or I mean, now, I know I

734
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:56,440
Speaker 10: work at a dental school, but dentald school is a

735
00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:58,200
Speaker 10: really good option if you have a local dental school

736
00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:01,000
Speaker 10: near you. What's great about it is you get so

737
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:03,319
Speaker 10: many eyes looking at you, right, Like, I know some

738
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:04,560
Speaker 10: people are kind of like, well, I don't want a

739
00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 10: student looking at me, but that student has to be

740
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:10,920
Speaker 10: checked off by like multiple dentists and professors, right, So

741
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:12,440
Speaker 10: there's really not a lot of places you could go

742
00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:14,640
Speaker 10: to where like multiple dentists are giving you an opinion.

743
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:17,080
Speaker 10: So it is it is a good way to kind

744
00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 10: of like get that feedback because especially students are taught

745
00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:23,160
Speaker 10: these fundamentals and conservative approach, so they're usually not going

746
00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:24,319
Speaker 10: to overtreatment playing you.

747
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:27,400
Speaker 1: Have you ever been in a situation when you felt like, oh,

748
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:29,160
Speaker 1: I want to get a second opinion on this thing,

749
00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:31,560
Speaker 1: but like it seems like it's too much trouble.

750
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:35,319
Speaker 7: Yeah, I probably just wouldn't deal with it. I'd either

751
00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:39,360
Speaker 7: just stop going and yeah, let my teeth throt, or

752
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:43,919
Speaker 7: I would just pay. Yeah, but the school I guess

753
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:48,040
Speaker 7: also they wouldn't have the profit motive incentive is another benefit,

754
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:49,360
Speaker 7: yeah for their side.

755
00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:53,319
Speaker 6: But yeah, I just don't feel like I would ever

756
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:54,480
Speaker 6: have the bandwidth.

757
00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:55,240
Speaker 1: For that exactly.

758
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:55,480
Speaker 11: Yeah.

759
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:56,880
Speaker 7: It's like if I had nothing else to do but

760
00:40:56,920 --> 00:41:00,480
Speaker 7: work on my teeth, yep, sure, mm hmm.

761
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:03,399
Speaker 6: It also kind of feels like it's just such a

762
00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:08,600
Speaker 6: bomber man, because like you've got, you've you when you

763
00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:11,000
Speaker 6: think about all these different parts of your body that

764
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:15,239
Speaker 6: you need to maintain, including your brain and emotions. As

765
00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:19,440
Speaker 6: a therapist, which and I am like drawing some comparisons

766
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:24,840
Speaker 6: to to like my professional world after that, but it

767
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:27,560
Speaker 6: just feels like, Okay, I've made it to the dentist

768
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:32,440
Speaker 6: my twice a year visit, like which is terribly annoying

769
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:36,839
Speaker 6: and often like a bad experience. I don't have who

770
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:41,280
Speaker 6: in the world like has the resources, the time, the money,

771
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:46,759
Speaker 6: the mental capacity to like decide whether or not they

772
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:48,240
Speaker 6: believe their dentist.

773
00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:50,560
Speaker 7: Yeah, and then who knows how long that's going to

774
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:53,240
Speaker 7: take too. Like I said, I'm waiting months for my checkup.

775
00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:55,239
Speaker 7: There's something wrong there. And then they're like, okay, go

776
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:58,160
Speaker 7: to another person. It's like, now this whole thing might

777
00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:00,439
Speaker 7: take three months. If I have real pain, It's like, yeah,

778
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:01,759
Speaker 7: I'm just gonna be like, all right, just take it

779
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:03,359
Speaker 7: out or whatever, Just do it now.

780
00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:06,920
Speaker 6: The onus on the individual just in it, you know,

781
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:10,640
Speaker 6: just for everything. It's just so heavy, it feels so burdensome.

782
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:15,840
Speaker 1: So I'm gonna take one more brick and when we

783
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:18,320
Speaker 1: get back. I'm gonna tell you guys about a startup

784
00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:21,360
Speaker 1: of plans to blow up the dental world as we

785
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:34,040
Speaker 1: know it. Okay, we are back. I'm Noah Devin Lily.

786
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:35,200
Speaker 5: So.

787
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:37,839
Speaker 1: A few days ago I took a trip down to

788
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:41,719
Speaker 1: Soho to meet the founder of a new dental startup.

789
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:51,560
Speaker 1: I'm good. Are you all right? Can I have you

790
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:53,160
Speaker 1: start up by just introducing yourself.

791
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:56,440
Speaker 4: Hey, my name is Tyler Burnett. I'm co founder of

792
00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:57,920
Speaker 4: CEO here at Wally Health.

793
00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:02,000
Speaker 1: Tyler was inspired to start Wally after having his own

794
00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:04,440
Speaker 1: run in with a dentists after moving to the US

795
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:05,720
Speaker 1: from Canada.

796
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:08,320
Speaker 4: And being told I needed eight fillings when I didn't

797
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:12,960
Speaker 4: need them right, and so I wasn't showing any diagnostics.

798
00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:16,759
Speaker 4: I wasn't educated on what was going on with my

799
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:20,920
Speaker 4: oral health. During that appointment, I was told by dentists

800
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:23,719
Speaker 4: that I had eight cavities and they needed to be

801
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:25,960
Speaker 4: filled immediately and it was going to cost me a

802
00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:26,520
Speaker 4: lot of money.

803
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:29,560
Speaker 1: He didn't end up getting the fillings, but he did

804
00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:32,320
Speaker 1: come up with the idea for the startup named Wally.

805
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:35,640
Speaker 4: We're building the future of dental care. So what we're

806
00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:38,440
Speaker 4: doing is solving a major healthcare crisis.

807
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:41,120
Speaker 1: So about forty percent of working age adults in the

808
00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:43,120
Speaker 1: US go to the dentists each year.

809
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:45,200
Speaker 4: We want to see that over eighty percent.

810
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:48,359
Speaker 1: Tyler thinks Wally can change that by making oral care

811
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:50,160
Speaker 1: more affordable and approachable.

812
00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:52,640
Speaker 4: Our product is simple. It's two hundred and forty nine

813
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:55,840
Speaker 4: dollars per year, so it's membership based and we provide

814
00:43:55,960 --> 00:44:01,120
Speaker 4: unlimited dental cleanings, diagnostics, exams with dentists at any of

815
00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:03,359
Speaker 4: our locations here in New York and New Jersey at

816
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:03,760
Speaker 4: the moment.

817
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 1: Tyler, who is married to a dentist, by the way,

818
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:10,000
Speaker 1: is extremely critical of the industry and says it does

819
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:14,920
Speaker 1: not invest in prevention or the patient experience. He says, Wally, though,

820
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:16,480
Speaker 1: has different incentives.

821
00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:20,960
Speaker 4: We're honestly incentivized to prevent and be proactive in our care,

822
00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:22,640
Speaker 4: which no other dentist in the country is.

823
00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:24,120
Speaker 1: By the way, No, we're very proud.

824
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:26,040
Speaker 4: We don't have drills, and while you're not going to

825
00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:26,920
Speaker 4: get drilled.

826
00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:29,560
Speaker 1: So while it doesn't actually do any major dental work

827
00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:32,759
Speaker 1: in house, they offer things like aligners in cavity of

828
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:35,799
Speaker 1: reversal treatments for an extra fee. But if you need

829
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:38,239
Speaker 1: like real work, they'll refer you out to someone else.

830
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:41,719
Speaker 4: Going to the dentist is one of the biggest scams

831
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:44,319
Speaker 4: of our modern time here in the United States. It's,

832
00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:47,719
Speaker 4: pound for pound, the most expensive healthcare experience we have

833
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:50,600
Speaker 4: as patients, as consumers. And what I mean by that

834
00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:54,840
Speaker 4: is we spend more proportionately when we go to a dentist.

835
00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:57,640
Speaker 4: That rate is higher than any other healthcare experience where

836
00:44:57,640 --> 00:44:59,719
Speaker 4: you're going to a doctor, you're getting a prescription field,

837
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:03,600
Speaker 4: the out of pocket spending is off the charts. A

838
00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:08,840
Speaker 4: big reason why that's the case is because insurance is broken.

839
00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:14,560
Speaker 4: Insurance is really driving the rules for the industry, and

840
00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:18,719
Speaker 4: then we have private equity that's come in and been

841
00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:20,440
Speaker 4: very good at playing those rules.

842
00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:20,759
Speaker 1: Right.

843
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:24,080
Speaker 4: They're the experts, and so you know, they own thirty

844
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:26,359
Speaker 4: percent of all dental locations. They're going to own forty

845
00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:27,640
Speaker 4: percent by the end of this year. So it's not

846
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:29,839
Speaker 4: getting better anytime soon. But they come in and they

847
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:32,239
Speaker 4: play those rules really well. One thing they do is

848
00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:36,239
Speaker 4: they find all of the treatments that an insurance plan

849
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:39,040
Speaker 4: will cover. So that's why you see a lot of

850
00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:43,440
Speaker 4: extra treatments being sold and I mean a diagnosed and

851
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:48,640
Speaker 4: sold because the insurance will cover all of these little

852
00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:53,640
Speaker 4: treatments up to a certain point. I know dentists dental

853
00:45:53,680 --> 00:46:00,680
Speaker 4: groups to be clear, that will know their patients insurance

854
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:03,560
Speaker 4: before they've come in for their first appointment and already

855
00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:05,279
Speaker 4: have a game plan on what they're able to sell

856
00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:08,279
Speaker 4: before they've even looked at your mouth or taken a diagnostic.

857
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:12,319
Speaker 1: So, while he doesn't actually accept insurance.

858
00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:15,800
Speaker 4: We didn't want to play those rules. Look, we knew

859
00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:20,719
Speaker 4: to be true to to our our mission around preventive

860
00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:24,160
Speaker 4: and productive care, we had to build the way we

861
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:26,840
Speaker 4: wanted to build, and we didn't want our thinking to

862
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:28,000
Speaker 4: be corrupted in any way.

863
00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:35,520
Speaker 6: I don't know anything about this startup, but he's saying,

864
00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:40,520
Speaker 6: you know, if we accepted insurance, like we there, we

865
00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:44,200
Speaker 6: would have no agency over becoming corrupted morally like that

866
00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:45,320
Speaker 6: it would just happen to you.

867
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:50,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, like can how about like that?

868
00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:55,719
Speaker 6: Agency also just like lies with you as the provider. Yeah,

869
00:46:55,880 --> 00:47:01,120
Speaker 6: just like maybe don't get corrupted, you have control.

870
00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:05,400
Speaker 1: Over So I thought it would be weird for me

871
00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:08,759
Speaker 1: to talk about this service without trying it out for myself.

872
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:11,799
Speaker 1: So I was actually able to get a Black Friday deal,

873
00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:14,000
Speaker 1: so I only paid one hundred and fifty dollars. It's

874
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:16,879
Speaker 1: usually two hundred and fifty dollars for the year. And

875
00:47:17,239 --> 00:47:21,080
Speaker 1: I made my first appointment to go to Wally's Williamsburg

876
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:24,640
Speaker 1: location in Brooklyn. So this was even before I spoke

877
00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:26,759
Speaker 1: to Tyler, so I had no idea I was doing

878
00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:29,080
Speaker 1: a story on Wally or who I was at all.

879
00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:32,640
Speaker 1: Because I wanted to truly be on their cover and

880
00:47:32,680 --> 00:47:38,320
Speaker 1: get the real experience. So I walked into the building.

881
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:41,880
Speaker 1: There's no front desk person, there's no one to greet you.

882
00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:45,239
Speaker 1: There's just an iPad that you sign in on. There's

883
00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:48,840
Speaker 1: music playing that does not, you know, sound like this

884
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:52,040
Speaker 1: music at all. And the first thing I noticed that

885
00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:55,319
Speaker 1: it's pretty noisy. So all the machines are crew are

886
00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:58,160
Speaker 1: going off. There's no actual walls. It's just a wide

887
00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:02,200
Speaker 1: open office space, but there are paper dividers where there

888
00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:06,520
Speaker 1: are dentist shares and where people are getting their work done.

889
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:10,080
Speaker 1: So sit down in the lobby, I wait for my

890
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:15,200
Speaker 1: name to be called. They bring me over to my section,

891
00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:20,280
Speaker 1: which is divided by these paper walls, and the dental

892
00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:23,640
Speaker 1: assistant starts talking me through what they're going to do

893
00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:24,160
Speaker 1: for today.

894
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:26,600
Speaker 9: Welcome. While I know it's the first time here, and

895
00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:27,799
Speaker 9: I'm going to be your dental.

896
00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:29,359
Speaker 2: Assistant for the day, Sauce.

897
00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:30,799
Speaker 9: It is the first time I'm going to start up

898
00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:33,040
Speaker 9: the problems of diagnostic exams. So I'll start up with

899
00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:37,799
Speaker 9: a scan of your teeth followed by the correctly.

900
00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:38,440
Speaker 1: I think you'll see the.

901
00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:39,560
Speaker 2: High episodes that you're saving.

902
00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:42,600
Speaker 1: Okay, all right now. I would say every single person

903
00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:45,840
Speaker 1: I talked to was really informative in a way that

904
00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:49,120
Speaker 1: I was not used to. At the dentists, they really

905
00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:51,560
Speaker 1: talked me through step by step what they were doing

906
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:55,040
Speaker 1: while he uses this Swiss technology called GBT, which doesn't

907
00:48:55,040 --> 00:48:58,040
Speaker 1: involve any scraping, so it was really pain free and

908
00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:00,879
Speaker 1: past the eye test, it looked just as effective as

909
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:03,840
Speaker 1: my normal cleanings. And then at the end of my appointment,

910
00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:05,879
Speaker 1: I talked to the dentists for a few minutes. Thanks

911
00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:08,439
Speaker 1: for you're flossing unneath this bridge every day, okay, using

912
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:09,200
Speaker 1: those of the rudders.

913
00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:11,799
Speaker 7: That way you can just keep everything cleaned out underneath it.

914
00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:16,400
Speaker 1: Okay, and I was on my way. So for my

915
00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:18,759
Speaker 1: first appointment, I felt like I had a pretty good

916
00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:20,960
Speaker 1: experience at Wally, but I wanted to see what were

917
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:23,680
Speaker 1: the major complaints that people had as well. So one

918
00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:26,440
Speaker 1: of the biggest issues people have is that this idea

919
00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:30,239
Speaker 1: of unlimited cleanings. So the earliest I was able to

920
00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:33,880
Speaker 1: book my next cleaning was two months after my first appointment,

921
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:36,160
Speaker 1: so you know, not truly unlimited.

922
00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:39,759
Speaker 4: Sometimes you know, growth outpaces what we thought it was

923
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:42,520
Speaker 4: going to be, and that's you know, quote unquote a

924
00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:46,080
Speaker 4: good problem to have as a business, but we're always

925
00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:50,239
Speaker 4: building to be ensuring there aren't limits on unlimited.

926
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:52,759
Speaker 1: Some patients also felt, similar to a lot of the

927
00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:55,480
Speaker 1: dentists that we've been talking about, that Wally was trying

928
00:49:55,520 --> 00:49:58,720
Speaker 1: to upsell them on deep cleans and other add ons

929
00:49:58,719 --> 00:50:00,000
Speaker 1: that don't come up the members.

930
00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:05,280
Speaker 4: So even though we go through such rigorous modern diagnostics

931
00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:08,400
Speaker 4: where we educate and talk through them, there is always

932
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:10,759
Speaker 4: going to be a group of people that are not

933
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:12,640
Speaker 4: going to react well to that information.

934
00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:14,960
Speaker 1: And he said, at the end of the day, if

935
00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:16,839
Speaker 1: you don't want to do the treatment, like you don't

936
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:19,359
Speaker 1: have to. You know, they're not pressuring you, they're just

937
00:50:19,480 --> 00:50:23,160
Speaker 1: letting you know. So Wally only operates a few locations

938
00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:25,120
Speaker 1: in New York and New Jersey right now, so it's

939
00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:28,319
Speaker 1: not really going to upend the entire system. Tyler says

940
00:50:28,360 --> 00:50:31,480
Speaker 1: they have big plans to expand to fifty locations by

941
00:50:31,520 --> 00:50:34,560
Speaker 1: the end of the year. There are some other startups

942
00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:37,400
Speaker 1: who are also trying to reimagine the future of dentistry,

943
00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:41,279
Speaker 1: places like ten and Glamory that are trying new approaches.

944
00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:44,839
Speaker 1: Wally's model doesn't solve the problem for people who need

945
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:47,800
Speaker 1: major dental work, but I was curious what doctor Sherylyn

946
00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:48,560
Speaker 1: thought about them.

947
00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:51,560
Speaker 10: I mean, honestly, don't I don't have a problem with it.

948
00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:54,719
Speaker 10: I think it's it's honestly pretty smart that they came

949
00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:57,720
Speaker 10: up with a way to provide this type of accessibility.

950
00:50:57,800 --> 00:50:59,560
Speaker 10: There's like kind of two groups of patients that would

951
00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:02,480
Speaker 10: be really good for these type of places. People that

952
00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:05,480
Speaker 10: are really good at maintaining their oral health already haven't

953
00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:07,560
Speaker 10: had like a lot of dental problems in the past,

954
00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:09,879
Speaker 10: but really like to keep their teeth clean and want

955
00:51:09,880 --> 00:51:13,000
Speaker 10: to get more cleanings, and usually dental insurance only covers

956
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:14,919
Speaker 10: two cleanings a year, so if you can get more,

957
00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:18,440
Speaker 10: it's amazing, right, So I think it's good for that person,

958
00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:21,080
Speaker 10: and also a person who doesn't have dental insurance but

959
00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:23,920
Speaker 10: also is really good at taking care of their mouth

960
00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:25,680
Speaker 10: right and hasn't had a lot of issues. It's great

961
00:51:25,719 --> 00:51:27,799
Speaker 10: to be able to get that like face time and

962
00:51:27,880 --> 00:51:29,960
Speaker 10: cleanings like multiple times for that price.

963
00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:33,160
Speaker 1: So doctor Sarah likes the idea of a membership but

964
00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:35,759
Speaker 1: didn't love that patients may be seeing a variety of

965
00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:36,640
Speaker 1: dent to set Wally.

966
00:51:37,239 --> 00:51:40,200
Speaker 9: The more I get to know a patient, the more

967
00:51:40,239 --> 00:51:44,600
Speaker 9: I understand one of their past experiences and two what's changing,

968
00:51:44,719 --> 00:51:48,200
Speaker 9: I can notice those changes a lot better, and I

969
00:51:48,239 --> 00:51:53,000
Speaker 9: get to know what they like as far as care

970
00:51:53,120 --> 00:51:55,920
Speaker 9: goes and as far as you know, let's say they're anxious,

971
00:51:56,040 --> 00:51:59,120
Speaker 9: like what works really well for them? Each dental visit

972
00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:01,600
Speaker 9: gets a little bit better. Are when when we know

973
00:52:01,640 --> 00:52:03,040
Speaker 9: how we can best care for them.

974
00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:07,040
Speaker 6: We've heard a lot of claims about who how many

975
00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:08,080
Speaker 6: dentists are.

976
00:52:08,040 --> 00:52:10,520
Speaker 1: Or not scammy, and there's no hard numbers to that.

977
00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:13,480
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, how could there be? Yeah, But like

978
00:52:13,640 --> 00:52:17,560
Speaker 6: I feel like probably I imagine I want to imagine that

979
00:52:17,600 --> 00:52:20,680
Speaker 6: most dentists are just like people who want to do

980
00:52:20,719 --> 00:52:22,719
Speaker 6: a good job at their job and are trying to

981
00:52:22,719 --> 00:52:24,640
Speaker 6: like make an honest living. And I think there is

982
00:52:24,719 --> 00:52:28,759
Speaker 6: probably like a subset of dentists that are trying to

983
00:52:28,760 --> 00:52:31,800
Speaker 6: make the most money possible, but by scamming their customers.

984
00:52:32,239 --> 00:52:35,560
Speaker 6: Just like there are my like family doctor when I

985
00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:41,320
Speaker 6: was a kid, got like arrested for pedaling opioids. That's crazy.

986
00:52:41,440 --> 00:52:49,320
Speaker 6: He's a fine doctor to me anyway. But like those,

987
00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:56,640
Speaker 6: those professionals exist in any profession. Like I feel more

988
00:52:56,800 --> 00:53:02,000
Speaker 6: concerned about, like more broadly, people not being able to

989
00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:04,120
Speaker 6: get the care that they actually do need, because like,

990
00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:08,040
Speaker 6: our teeth are in our bodies and they do matter,

991
00:53:08,120 --> 00:53:10,960
Speaker 6: and like an infection is kind of an emergency, like

992
00:53:11,239 --> 00:53:13,239
Speaker 6: because that can spread and that can become like a

993
00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:16,960
Speaker 6: really serious problem. Like your teeth are connected to.

994
00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:18,280
Speaker 1: Your your health.

995
00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:21,880
Speaker 6: Yeah, and so just the fact that it's separate, that

996
00:53:21,920 --> 00:53:25,600
Speaker 6: the insurance is separate is what's so terrible. Just like

997
00:53:26,160 --> 00:53:31,120
Speaker 6: I feel like the real enemy is our like the

998
00:53:31,160 --> 00:53:36,080
Speaker 6: healthcare system, and not so much the individual dentists who

999
00:53:36,160 --> 00:53:41,040
Speaker 6: are I want to believe, for the most part, just

1000
00:53:41,080 --> 00:53:42,920
Speaker 6: trying to like do their jobs.

1001
00:53:43,120 --> 00:53:48,439
Speaker 1: I agree with you, I think the big issue is access, right,

1002
00:53:48,880 --> 00:53:52,480
Speaker 1: I think I don't think the issue with dentistry is

1003
00:53:53,800 --> 00:53:55,799
Speaker 1: all the dentists are trying to scam us and say

1004
00:53:55,800 --> 00:53:58,040
Speaker 1: we have cavities that we don't have. I do think

1005
00:53:58,080 --> 00:54:02,080
Speaker 1: there's a subgroup that is not conservative of enough in

1006
00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:04,520
Speaker 1: terms of dental care, and they're doing too much work

1007
00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:06,359
Speaker 1: when that don't need to be done. But I don't

1008
00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:10,920
Speaker 1: think that's the majority of dentists. Yeah, let's put it

1009
00:54:10,920 --> 00:54:14,399
Speaker 1: this way. People, the only reason that people know that

1010
00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:17,759
Speaker 1: they went to a dentist that is maybe not conservative

1011
00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:19,800
Speaker 1: is enough is because they go to a conservative dentist

1012
00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:22,160
Speaker 1: who says, actually, you don't need this work done, right.

1013
00:54:22,239 --> 00:54:25,239
Speaker 1: Like it's if all the dentists were conspiring against us,

1014
00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:28,080
Speaker 1: you would never have that moment where someone would be like, oh,

1015
00:54:28,160 --> 00:54:30,719
Speaker 1: actually you don't need all these cavities filled. So I

1016
00:54:30,719 --> 00:54:34,480
Speaker 1: think there are more good than bad dentists. I think

1017
00:54:35,239 --> 00:54:37,640
Speaker 1: more people just need to go to the dentists, and

1018
00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:43,000
Speaker 1: you know, and I think part of that is costs.

1019
00:54:44,040 --> 00:54:47,279
Speaker 1: It's expensive. And I think another big obstacle is this

1020
00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:52,359
Speaker 1: anxiety piece of it, right, and it's like the patient experience, right,

1021
00:54:52,480 --> 00:54:55,279
Speaker 1: And I think there is a little bit of like

1022
00:54:56,360 --> 00:54:59,640
Speaker 1: old school dentistry needs a bit of an update because

1023
00:54:59,680 --> 00:55:03,239
Speaker 1: even like the best case scenario, if a dentist is

1024
00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:05,800
Speaker 1: not very pleasant. So I think there does need to

1025
00:55:05,840 --> 00:55:08,560
Speaker 1: be a bit more of a priority for dentists on

1026
00:55:08,920 --> 00:55:09,719
Speaker 1: patient care.

1027
00:55:10,400 --> 00:55:15,479
Speaker 6: I agree with you, Like, obviously the experience really needs

1028
00:55:15,520 --> 00:55:20,040
Speaker 6: to improve, and dentists need to be more thoughtful and

1029
00:55:20,120 --> 00:55:22,320
Speaker 6: caring of the patient experience exactly.

1030
00:55:22,840 --> 00:55:25,080
Speaker 1: You know, we should send some some dentists to some

1031
00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:27,440
Speaker 1: of your schooling. You know, we'll send up the little

1032
00:55:27,480 --> 00:55:31,920
Speaker 1: school of dentistry where you'll teach them some personal skills.

1033
00:55:32,000 --> 00:55:32,160
Speaker 1: You know.

1034
00:55:34,360 --> 00:55:39,399
Speaker 6: My god, if okay, if any dentist wants to do

1035
00:55:39,480 --> 00:55:42,319
Speaker 6: some like one on one coaching with a therapist on

1036
00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:50,759
Speaker 6: some bedside manner of skills, maybe I actually don't know

1037
00:55:50,760 --> 00:55:56,160
Speaker 6: if I can do that ethically. Dentist need therapy.

1038
00:55:56,440 --> 00:56:02,200
Speaker 8: Yeah, you know, if you've been hurt by the misconception

1039
00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:08,040
Speaker 8: by anti dentist sentiment in popular culture, I welcome you,

1040
00:56:08,960 --> 00:56:10,719
Speaker 8: yoss heals.

1041
00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:15,160
Speaker 1: It took a minute, but I had a lot of

1042
00:56:15,160 --> 00:56:18,520
Speaker 1: fun putting together this episode. If y'all are a fan

1043
00:56:18,719 --> 00:56:22,880
Speaker 1: of no such thing, please please please share this episode

1044
00:56:22,960 --> 00:56:26,440
Speaker 1: your favorite episode with your friends. We love making a show,

1045
00:56:26,719 --> 00:56:28,839
Speaker 1: and the only way we can continue to do it

1046
00:56:28,880 --> 00:56:31,600
Speaker 1: is if y'all keep sharing it and talking about it

1047
00:56:32,040 --> 00:56:35,120
Speaker 1: and get more people to listen to it. Our special

1048
00:56:35,160 --> 00:56:38,720
Speaker 1: guest for this episode was Lily Kaplan sitting in for Manny.

1049
00:56:39,320 --> 00:56:42,880
Speaker 1: Check out Lily's Reality Tests newsletter. We're gonna link to

1050
00:56:42,960 --> 00:56:44,879
Speaker 1: it in our show notes, and make sure you check

1051
00:56:44,920 --> 00:56:47,240
Speaker 1: out her previous episode if you haven't heard it already.

1052
00:56:47,680 --> 00:56:51,520
Speaker 1: It's titled do You Need Therapy. We're gonna link to

1053
00:56:51,560 --> 00:56:55,320
Speaker 1: it in the show notes. Thank you to our panel

1054
00:56:55,360 --> 00:56:59,480
Speaker 1: of dentists for this episode, Doctor Sarah, Doctor Sharylyn, and

1055
00:56:59,560 --> 00:57:05,040
Speaker 1: doctor Brandon. Thank you to Tyler Burnett at Wally, and

1056
00:57:05,120 --> 00:57:09,239
Speaker 1: thank you to aj Jacobs for breaking down the history

1057
00:57:09,440 --> 00:57:13,520
Speaker 1: of dentistry. As always, if you have feedback for the show,

1058
00:57:13,560 --> 00:57:16,040
Speaker 1: you can hit us up at Manny Noah Devin at

1059
00:57:16,120 --> 00:57:19,360
Speaker 1: gmail dot com, or you can call us at the

1060
00:57:19,480 --> 00:57:23,080
Speaker 1: number in our show notes. No such thing as a

1061
00:57:23,120 --> 00:57:27,120
Speaker 1: production of Kaleidoscope Content. Our executive producers are Kate Osborne

1062
00:57:27,240 --> 00:57:30,480
Speaker 1: n Man guest Hati Kudur. The show was created by Manafidel,

1063
00:57:30,760 --> 00:57:34,080
Speaker 1: Noah Friedman and me Devin Joseph. The theme in credit

1064
00:57:34,160 --> 00:57:39,040
Speaker 1: song is by Manny, mixing for this episode by Steve Bone.

1065
00:57:39,240 --> 00:57:41,760
Speaker 1: All Right, we'll see you guys next week. Good Bye.

1066
00:57:44,200 --> 00:57:45,840
Speaker 5: No such thing