1 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:08,600 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News. 2 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to The Money Stuff Podcast, your weekly 3 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:17,759 Speaker 2: podcast where we talk about stuff related to money. Hi'm 4 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:20,840 Speaker 2: Matt Levin. I read the Money Stuff column for Bloomberg Opinion. 5 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: And I'm Katie Greifeld. I'm a reporter for Bloomberg News 6 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 1: and an anchor for Bloomberg Television. 7 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:26,880 Speaker 2: It's the best day of our lives. 8 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 1: It is the best day of our lives, which happens 9 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 1: every day on Fridays. We have a lot to talk 10 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:33,960 Speaker 1: about today. We have to talk about Elon Musk. 11 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:36,200 Speaker 2: Of course, we had a whole week with that Elon Musk. 12 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 1: I think, I know it was weird that we didn't 13 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:39,279 Speaker 1: get to it in the first week. So we'll talk 14 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:42,360 Speaker 1: about Elon Musk on that pay package fifty six billion dollars, 15 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:44,919 Speaker 1: and of course his issues with Delaware. We're also going 16 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:49,479 Speaker 1: to talk about Jane Street versus Millennium. You just published 17 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 1: on this. 18 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 2: By the time you heard this podcast, I will published 19 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:54,640 Speaker 2: on it roughly twenty four hours ago. Were recording it 20 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 2: shortly after I published on it. 21 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 1: It's Thursday right now, and Matt published twenty minutes ago. 22 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 1: So this is the one I'm least prepared for. As 23 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:03,960 Speaker 1: we're also going to talk about Hunter Brook, the hedge 24 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 1: fund that's also a newspaper question mark. Indeed, before we 25 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:14,320 Speaker 1: get into this week's topics, it's our second episode. 26 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:16,560 Speaker 2: It's our second episode. We got a lot of feedback 27 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:17,360 Speaker 2: on the first episode. 28 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:19,360 Speaker 1: We got a lot of feedback. A lot of it 29 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:22,560 Speaker 1: was about all of its comment that I made about 30 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:26,400 Speaker 1: the doped Olympics. Surprise, they already exist and they're funded 31 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:27,119 Speaker 1: by Peter Teel. 32 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:29,120 Speaker 2: Well, it don't exist, they're like launching. 33 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:32,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, the idea is out there, the enhanced Games that 34 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:36,120 Speaker 1: would have no drug testing. So if you didn't want 35 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:38,400 Speaker 1: to do it performance enhancing drugs, you could still enter. 36 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 2: You would just lose, yes, or you could do the 37 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:42,160 Speaker 2: regular Olympics, which you'll still have drug testing. 38 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you'll probably still lose. 39 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:46,840 Speaker 2: I wonder if, like presumably day one, the best athletes 40 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 2: will still do the regular Olympics. 41 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 1: Yeah. 42 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:50,720 Speaker 2: I wonder how long it'll take for the Enhanced Olympics 43 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 2: to have faster times and it jumps. 44 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 1: It's a great question because if you're like. 45 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 2: The tenth best track athlete and you do a lot 46 00:01:57,040 --> 00:01:58,800 Speaker 2: of drugs are better than the best. 47 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:03,680 Speaker 1: You probably there's only one way to find out. 48 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 2: Is going to do? 49 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:07,960 Speaker 1: These games need to happen. The event roster includes individual 50 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 1: sports such as athletics meaning track and field, aquatics, gymnastics, 51 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:15,760 Speaker 1: strength and combat. I would watch these, but. 52 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:21,400 Speaker 2: What we don't have on that list is drissage. 53 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 1: Trissage Yeah, for the uninitiated, dressage is horse dancing. Effectively, 54 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:30,919 Speaker 1: just go on YouTube look it up. It's a ridiculous 55 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:33,680 Speaker 1: sport that, for better or worse, I partake in. I'm 56 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:36,399 Speaker 1: not sure if when I enter the enhanced games, which 57 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:39,200 Speaker 1: I will, whether I take the drugs, the horse takes 58 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 1: the drugs. Do we both take the drugs the drugs? 59 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 2: Have you or your horse ever been like offered drugs? 60 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 2: Has ever been a controversy at your dressage? 61 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:50,680 Speaker 1: We're not that good maybe in higher levels of the sport, 62 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:55,440 Speaker 1: but what we're doing, it's very loosely dressage. Let's talk 63 00:02:55,480 --> 00:03:01,079 Speaker 1: about the time, moving gracefully along laon Musk. The big 64 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 1: news this week is that Tesla came out with their 65 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 1: proxy statement two items of interest. They're going to havesh 66 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 1: shareholders to vote again on that twenty eighteen pay package 67 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:13,400 Speaker 1: of fifty six billion dollars that was voided by a 68 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 1: Delaware judge, and related to that, they're going to vote 69 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:20,919 Speaker 1: on whether to move Tesla's state of incorporation from Delaware 70 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 1: to Texas. What do you want to start with? 71 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:26,320 Speaker 2: They're inter related, yes, right, he got paid a giant 72 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 2: snack of options in about twenty eighteen. Everyone says they're 73 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 2: worth fifty six billion dollars. Whatever they're worth, like forty 74 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 2: billion dollars, fifty billion dollars, just like a conventional number 75 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 2: that people attached to it because you know, go up 76 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 2: and down with the stock. But right now they're with 77 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 2: forty billion dollars and judge took them away in January. 78 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 2: I said that was too much to pay him, and 79 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 2: it wasn't properly approved by the shareholders. And so they're 80 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 2: going back to the shareholders to one get it properly 81 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 2: approved and two never has to deal with a Delaware 82 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 2: judge again because they're going to move to Texas. 83 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:56,240 Speaker 1: Like you said, these are two intimately related issues. But 84 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 1: sticking with the pay package, which everyone is saying is 85 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 1: fifty six billion dollars, maybe it's forty billion dollars. But 86 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 1: the vote is in June. Yeah, are they going to 87 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 1: approve it again these shareholders. 88 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 2: I think, so the proxy quits a lot of letters 89 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 2: from individual shareholders saying how much they love Elon Musk 90 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 2: and how they're going to approve it, and also, by 91 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 2: the way, letters from like Trope Price Right big shareholders too. 92 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 2: It's interesting if you were a sharelder in like twenty 93 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 2: twenty one, or even like December of last year, I 94 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 2: think you would say this pay package was worth it. 95 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 2: In twenty eighteen, they said we're going to pay you 96 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 2: on Musk fifty six billion dollars if he takes the 97 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:30,719 Speaker 2: market cap of Tesla from like sixty billion dollars, like 98 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 2: six hundred and fifty billion dollars, And at the time 99 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 2: that seemed like a real stretch goal. And then he 100 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:41,040 Speaker 2: did it really quickly, and so all the shareholders got rich, 101 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:43,080 Speaker 2: like they made a lot of money on Tesla, and 102 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 2: I think they felt the real sense of gratitude, and 103 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:48,240 Speaker 2: so I think very few shareholders were complaining about his 104 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 2: pay package, but one did ensued. Right, Yes, I think 105 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 2: the shareholders were happy with it. But now if you 106 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:56,440 Speaker 2: go back to them and say you want to approve 107 00:04:56,440 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 2: it again, they could be like, we already got whatever 108 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:00,600 Speaker 2: he did. He did the stuff that made it a 109 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 2: six hundred and fifty billion dollar company. So if we 110 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 2: can get those past efforts for free, why shouldn't they 111 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:08,040 Speaker 2: get it for free? They feel grateful, but do they 112 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:10,479 Speaker 2: feel fifty six billion dollars grateful? But that's it. If 113 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:12,719 Speaker 2: you're a Tesla scholder at this point, you're playing a 114 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:16,360 Speaker 2: longer game, and rightly or wrongly, I think Tesla sholders 115 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 2: assume that Elon Musk and his continued affection are essential 116 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 2: to the value of Tesla's stock. And so if they 117 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 2: vote down this paypack goods, Like will he quit in 118 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 2: a huff? Maybe he's got a lot going on, right, 119 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 2: He's got a lot of distractions, so he could quit 120 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:37,120 Speaker 2: in a huff. And although his mercurial stewardship has not 121 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:38,719 Speaker 2: been great for the stock price in the last couple 122 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 2: of years, he quits in a huff, that's going to 123 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:40,560 Speaker 2: take the. 124 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:43,239 Speaker 1: Stock think, Yeah, I mean the stock's already down forty 125 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:44,040 Speaker 1: percent year today. 126 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:46,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, Like it's been a rough ride. But still I 127 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:48,920 Speaker 2: think they want him there. It's not like if they 128 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:50,719 Speaker 2: vote this down, he'll come back and be like, Okay, fine, 129 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 2: can you be like two billion dollars? Like I think like, 130 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 2: if they vote this down, he's going to be really mad, 131 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 2: like really mad. 132 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 1: I guess I have two kind of related points to 133 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 1: that to what you're saying, what is the key man 134 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 1: risk to Tesla? Like, how much does Tesla need Elon 135 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:06,480 Speaker 1: Musk at this point? Is something I think about all 136 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 1: the time. This is an established company at this point. 137 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:10,840 Speaker 2: No, I agree with that, it's an established company that 138 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 2: could probably operate on its own. It's not like the 139 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 2: stock has been continuing to go out from strength to strength. 140 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 2: It's been a rough time. I do think that there's 141 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 2: probably still a valuation premium for Elon Musk, and I 142 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:23,279 Speaker 2: think like it's a somewhat retail heavy stocked a lot 143 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:25,120 Speaker 2: of people who like Elon Musk and the stock, and 144 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:28,040 Speaker 2: I think if he were to leave, that would be bad. 145 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:29,840 Speaker 2: But I'm not sure of that in the way that 146 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:31,280 Speaker 2: I might have been in like twenty twenty one. 147 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:31,800 Speaker 1: Yeah. 148 00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 2: I also think, by the way, whatever your sort of 149 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:36,120 Speaker 2: economic calculation, I do think that some of the sholders 150 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 2: at least are like, we agreed to pay him to 151 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 2: these options. We voted on it. A court in a 152 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:47,120 Speaker 2: weird technical opinion struck that down, and we don't think 153 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 2: that's fair. We think it's like bad for corporate democracy 154 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 2: and also bad for like fairness to Elon Musk, and 155 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 2: so we're going to give him that fifty six billion 156 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:57,719 Speaker 2: dollars back anyway. I think there's probably some of that 157 00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:00,720 Speaker 2: going on among some of the including some of the 158 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:01,839 Speaker 2: institutional shareholders. 159 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 1: Even if this is approved, we'll just get avoided again. 160 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 1: Like how does this work if they approve it again. 161 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 2: It's a fascinating question, I think, and Tesla thinks the 162 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:14,520 Speaker 2: answer is that if they approve it again this time, 163 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 2: it will stick, right, because what happened last time is 164 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 2: they approved it and the judge found that the shaholders 165 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:22,240 Speaker 2: were not fully informed of all the conflicts of interest 166 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 2: involved in setting his pay package. Now they're fully informed, 167 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:29,600 Speaker 2: in part because, like Tesla went back and gave disclosures, 168 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 2: but also they just attached the judge's opinion to the 169 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:34,239 Speaker 2: proxy statement to be like anything that the judge found 170 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 2: bad here, you can read it, right. So I think 171 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 2: they have to be fully informed. There's no problem with 172 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 2: the vote, but the law and this is not super clear, 173 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 2: and they say in the proxy statement, we're not totally 174 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 2: sure what the effect of this will be I think 175 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 2: there's some argument that the disgruntled shareholder can sue again 176 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 2: and the judge again gets to decide if the pay 177 00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 2: package is fair, and we kind of know she thinks 178 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 2: it isn't, so it might get stricked down. But the 179 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:02,640 Speaker 2: other thing I want to say is that I don't 180 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 2: know what the disgruntl cherold. There's a guy named Richard Tournetto. 181 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 2: I don't know what he thinks. I don't know if 182 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 2: he wants to do this again. But you know who 183 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:11,679 Speaker 2: cares his lawyers who when they won in the dellar 184 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 2: A court and they streck down this fifty six billion 185 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:16,440 Speaker 2: dollar pay package. They went to the court and they said, 186 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:18,920 Speaker 2: we want five point six billion dollars worth of Tesla 187 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 2: stock as a fee for this win. Right, And their 188 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:25,560 Speaker 2: theory is we saved shareholders all this money by clawing 189 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 2: back the fifty six billion dollars from Elon Musk. If 190 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 2: the shareholders give Elon Musk the fifty six billion dollars back, 191 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 2: they haven't gotten the fee yet, right, it's still in court. Yeah, 192 00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 2: if they give the money back, what is their argument 193 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 2: that they save the shareholders any money? Like, yeah, they've 194 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 2: got a lot of money riding on the argument that 195 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:43,320 Speaker 2: Musk's compensation actually got clawed back, so they care. 196 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, let's talk about the second part of what happened Texas. 197 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:49,240 Speaker 1: Are they going to run into this problem again in 198 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:52,920 Speaker 1: Texas moving to Texas? What does that do for Tesla? 199 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 2: They say that moving to Texas makes sense because they're 200 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:59,200 Speaker 2: big factories in Texas, their headquarters in Texas. Elon lives 201 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 2: in Texas, and so they have to bet their incorporation 202 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 2: to Texas because that just makes sense. No other company 203 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:05,800 Speaker 2: thinks that, right, Like, that's not really a thing. Like 204 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:08,600 Speaker 2: every company is incorporated in Delaware, and very few are 205 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 2: located in Delaware. But it's what they say. The answer is, 206 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:14,320 Speaker 2: nobody knows. There's a lot of Delaware corporate law and 207 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:16,720 Speaker 2: there's not a lot of corporate law anywhere else because 208 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 2: most big companies that have big lawsuits are incorporated in Delaware, 209 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:22,520 Speaker 2: and so that's where all the cases are. Tesla says, 210 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 2: and it's proxy that they think the law in Texas 211 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 2: is mostly the same as the law in Delaware. I 212 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:33,480 Speaker 2: think it's probably true. But everyone kind of assumes that 213 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:38,400 Speaker 2: if this had all happened in Texas, and if a 214 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:41,120 Speaker 2: shareholder had sued Elon Musk in Texas, they get back 215 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 2: to the fifty six billion dollars, a Texas judge would 216 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:46,560 Speaker 2: have been like, Nah, Elon Musk can keep that money. 217 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:50,760 Speaker 2: There's no basis for assuming that nobody knows. It seems 218 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:53,360 Speaker 2: that way, and clearly Elon Musk assumes it, because as 219 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 2: soon as the Delaware opinion came out, he's like, we're 220 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:58,600 Speaker 2: moving to Texas. By the way, that happened, the opinion 221 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:00,280 Speaker 2: came out and he was like, we're moving to says 222 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:02,600 Speaker 2: right away, was saying it on Twitter. But Tesla now 223 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 2: and it's proxy statement has to explain why it's moving 224 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 2: to Texas, and it describes this very thorough process that 225 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:11,840 Speaker 2: it did to evaluate moving to Texas. So it formed 226 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:14,720 Speaker 2: a special committee of independent directors. There's one person on 227 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:15,319 Speaker 2: the committee. 228 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:16,440 Speaker 1: Was his name Elon Musk. 229 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:19,320 Speaker 2: No, No, it's a truly independent director. Her name is Kathleen 230 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 2: Wilson Thompson. The special committee met sixteen times for more 231 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:24,960 Speaker 2: than twenty six hours, says the proxy, which is like 232 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:28,560 Speaker 2: a fun thing to imagine, Like I first imagined it 233 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 2: as like I met four hours today with the money 234 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 2: stuff committee. Like I was like typing on my computer. 235 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 2: I was like, oh, there's a meeting, But in fact 236 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:37,040 Speaker 2: she met with like her lawyers, so she did. There 237 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 2: were real meetings, but just she was the only director 238 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:43,440 Speaker 2: at the meetings. But they the committee evaluated all fifty 239 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:45,559 Speaker 2: states to decide. It was like throwing darts, being like, 240 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:47,520 Speaker 2: which state should we move to, and like it just 241 00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:52,079 Speaker 2: so happens that the best state turned out to be Texas. Coincidentally, 242 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 2: the same thing that Elon Musk was treating about like 243 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 2: two months ago. It's beautiful, so it worked out nicely. 244 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:58,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's good that it turned out that way. 245 00:10:58,280 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 2: By the way, you asked you if the laws move 246 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:03,080 Speaker 2: with I wrote this before there's some small chance of 247 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:06,679 Speaker 2: a Delaware judge saying, no, you're not allowed to move 248 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 2: to Texas because you're only moving to Texas to pay Elon. 249 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:12,559 Speaker 1: Muskmore and which seems reasonable. 250 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:15,320 Speaker 2: That is like a violation of your pretty shaddies to 251 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 2: your Delaware shaholders, so we're going to stop you. I 252 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 2: wrote that in like January. I thought that was like 253 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 2: some extremely funny theoretical chance of that happening. Since then, 254 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:24,840 Speaker 2: there's been like a Delaware court decision that makes it 255 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:28,240 Speaker 2: less likely, So I don't think that's going to happen, 256 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 2: but it would be really funny. 257 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 1: So I have one point, and I also have a question. 258 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:33,840 Speaker 1: I guess I'll start with the point, and that is 259 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:37,439 Speaker 1: that there is like a human psychology component to this, 260 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:41,440 Speaker 1: because I remember when this happened in January that it 261 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 1: was voided this pay package. My suggestion to Elon Musk 262 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 1: would be, why don't you just have Tesla do a dividends. 263 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:50,760 Speaker 1: Mark Zuckerberg did that with Meta. Now he's going to 264 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:53,599 Speaker 1: make like seven hundred million dollars a year. Mark Zuckerberg 265 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:56,319 Speaker 1: obviously owns a lot more Meta share, so it makes 266 00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:59,240 Speaker 1: more sense there. But you made the point to me 267 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 1: that Elon mus isn't trying to make normal extremely wealthy 268 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:07,440 Speaker 1: man money. He has like insane aspirations that he needs 269 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:08,200 Speaker 1: all this money for. 270 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 2: He owns a minority of Tesla. He's a controlling Cheryl 271 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:12,120 Speaker 2: everbody owns like twenty percent of the stock, so a 272 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:14,320 Speaker 2: dividend would go mostly to other people, and like they're 273 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 2: not so rolling in cash, they could pay it like 274 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:18,600 Speaker 2: tens of billions of dollars or dividends. Mark Zuckerwood gets 275 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:21,440 Speaker 2: a dividend because he likes to go water skiing or 276 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:23,440 Speaker 2: whatever it is that he does, right, hoverboarding, He. 277 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 1: Has cows, right house, Yeah. 278 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 2: Archery, I don't know, all sorts of normal things hobbies, Yeah, 279 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:31,439 Speaker 2: like moderately expensive hobbies some of them. But Elon Musk's 280 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 2: hobbies are like brain implants, going to Mars, buying Twitter. 281 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 2: I'm forgetting a few, but like, he's not like looking 282 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 2: to spend money on a nice vacation. He's looking to 283 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 2: have tens of billions of dollars to fund going to Mars, 284 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:48,920 Speaker 2: and so he needs these giant pay packages every now 285 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:50,439 Speaker 2: and then to pursue his next ambition. 286 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 1: You're not going to get that from your dividend checks. 287 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:55,120 Speaker 1: And then my question for you is what do you 288 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 1: think is the most interesting way that this proxy vote 289 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:01,560 Speaker 1: could turn out? What would be the most interesting chain 290 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:02,240 Speaker 1: of events for you? 291 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:05,160 Speaker 2: Look, I love the idea of a Delaware court preventing 292 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 2: Musk from leaving for Texas. I think that would be 293 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:11,400 Speaker 2: extremely funny. But I actually think the simpler answer is funnier, 294 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:14,320 Speaker 2: which is, if the shareholders vote this down, that's wild, 295 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 2: Like he'll quit it a huff on Twitter like that day. Yeah, 296 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 2: it'll be an amazing thread of tweets and it will 297 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 2: be an amazing corporate tobaccle. Whatever time he's devoting to Tesla, 298 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 2: he'll go and devote to some other wild thing and 299 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 2: that'll be wild, and Tesla will like find its way, 300 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 2: as you know, it'll get back that fifty million dollars 301 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:36,120 Speaker 2: and find its way as a company not controlled by 302 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 2: a wild, wild sequence of events. 303 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:42,040 Speaker 1: Now, in my mind would be the most interesting scenario 304 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:43,840 Speaker 1: as well, and then we could truly find out what 305 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:45,439 Speaker 1: the Elon Musk premium. 306 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:47,240 Speaker 2: Is the thing about Elon Musk companies is that if 307 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:49,400 Speaker 2: you're an investor in Elon Musk companies, like you like 308 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 2: Elon Musk, like that's just how it goes, right, Like 309 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:54,120 Speaker 2: you're not there because you like the assets but think 310 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 2: they're mismanaged, Like you're there because you like Elon Musk. 311 00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:59,679 Speaker 2: It would be really shocking for the investors in an 312 00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:02,559 Speaker 2: Elon Musk company to vote against them in such a 313 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:03,240 Speaker 2: striking way. 314 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:05,440 Speaker 1: Do you want to talk about Elon Musk for like 315 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 1: twenty five more minutes or do you think we should 316 00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:07,679 Speaker 1: move on? 317 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:11,320 Speaker 2: I saw your look of like I have wrapped this 318 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:14,800 Speaker 2: up so nicely. And then Matt comes in with more stuff. 319 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:16,480 Speaker 2: I have some more stuff, but I'm gonna wrap it up. 320 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:35,360 Speaker 2: Never mind, Stay tuned, Stay tuned. There's always more, love, Katie. 321 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 2: You're so impatient to get to James sain Street. Yeah. 322 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:41,680 Speaker 1: I don't really know why not that it's not super 323 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 1: interesting set the scene for us, what's going on? 324 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 2: So I wanted to talk you about this because Jane 325 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:52,240 Speaker 2: Street sued Millennium. Two Jane Street traders left Jane Street. 326 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:55,480 Speaker 2: They went to Millennium, and Jane Street thinks they took 327 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:58,800 Speaker 2: a complicated secret trade with them and are now making 328 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 2: money for Millennium at the expensive Jane Street, and so 329 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 2: they sued. I wanted to talk about it because the 330 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 2: complaint is public, but it's heavily redacted because Jane Street 331 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:09,760 Speaker 2: is like, we have the secret trading strategy that's being 332 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 2: ruined by someone else copying it. They don't want to 333 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 2: say what the strategy is, right, but they have to 334 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:14,600 Speaker 2: say what it is. They just have to black it 335 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:16,000 Speaker 2: out in the publicly filed version. 336 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 1: Yeah. 337 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:18,120 Speaker 2: So I want to read the complaint and all. 338 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:19,480 Speaker 1: The biopes go for it. 339 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 2: Okay, I'm not really going to read the whole complaint, 340 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 2: but they did a trading investigation. They had this idea 341 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 2: and they like tested it out, and the results confirmed 342 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 2: Jane Street's initial findings, notwithstanding their facial improbability, and revealed 343 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:35,680 Speaker 2: that the market was bibe for certain classes of trades 344 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:38,280 Speaker 2: in the presence of specific market signals and underline conditions. 345 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:40,560 Speaker 2: Probably we could have, like a podcast producer put a 346 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 2: real beep over that, but I think I think I 347 00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:43,800 Speaker 2: did a pretty pretty good peep. 348 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:46,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, No, that definitely was a beeB anyway. 349 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 2: So, yeah, they have this trade. Yeah, we don't know 350 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 2: what it is. 351 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 1: I want to know what it is. 352 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 2: So what we know about it is one that makes 353 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 2: money like reliably for like some number of months at least. 354 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:58,320 Speaker 2: And two it's weird. Yeah, they really emphasize that it's weird. 355 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 2: It's facial improbability, and they say that it was counterintuitive, unexpected, 356 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 2: and initially met with significant skepticism and incredulity internally at 357 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 2: Jane Street. It's really tantalizing. They're like, we found this 358 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:13,640 Speaker 2: trade that you would not believe. It's so crazy. They 359 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 2: like discovered it in like the data and they all 360 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 2: sat it on and being like this can't be real. 361 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:19,560 Speaker 2: And then they tested it for like a year and 362 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:20,560 Speaker 2: they go, wow, it's real. 363 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 1: This is kind of silly. But reading about it and 364 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:26,960 Speaker 1: reading that line specifically made me think of like Rudolph 365 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 1: the Red Nose reindeer, how everyone made fun of him 366 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:33,720 Speaker 1: and then his nose actually lit up and illuminated the 367 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 1: night sky and they were like, Wow, this works. It's 368 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 1: sort of a similar situation. Yes, something else in the 369 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 1: Bloomberg News article, apparently Jane Street saw evidence that one 370 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 1: of the traders who left in February he was using 371 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:51,960 Speaker 1: the strategy. They figured it out because Jane Street said 372 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:54,360 Speaker 1: that its profits from using the strategy fell by fifty 373 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 1: percent in March, a drop, it said, could only be 374 00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:00,640 Speaker 1: attributable to quote, the entrance of a competitor using the 375 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:02,360 Speaker 1: same strategy. What is this trade? 376 00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 2: It's apparently a trade where there's like capacity to make editor. 377 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:07,400 Speaker 2: I'm going to make up a number, make a million 378 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:09,159 Speaker 2: dollars a day, right, And Jane Sat was doing it 379 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 2: and making a million dollars a day, right, and then 380 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:12,119 Speaker 2: Millennium starts to do it. Now that each make half 381 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:12,920 Speaker 2: a million dollars a day. 382 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 1: Right. Yeah, Because it's not like they lost money because 383 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:16,639 Speaker 1: someone else started doing it. They're just they're not the 384 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:19,359 Speaker 1: only person in this market anymore. Whatever this market is. 385 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:21,800 Speaker 2: It's some sort of options market. It seems clear it's 386 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:25,440 Speaker 2: like some sort of options trade. Rumor is that it's 387 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 2: not in the United States, but it is. 388 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 1: How does this work? Are we ever going to find 389 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:30,639 Speaker 1: out what the trade is? Or is it just a secret? 390 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:33,800 Speaker 2: I'm going to keep asking. One of my favorite things 391 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:36,480 Speaker 2: about this complaint is that one of these traders leaves 392 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:39,679 Speaker 2: Jane straight from Millennium, and the complaint mentions how much 393 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 2: money he's getting, because they're making the point like he's 394 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:45,000 Speaker 2: getting paid so much money. It can't be just because yeah, 395 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:48,720 Speaker 2: he's like whatever experience, whatever skill, he wouldn't be making 396 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:51,360 Speaker 2: that much money. He's getting paid that much money because 397 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 2: he's bringing this Chaine Street trade. 398 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:53,920 Speaker 1: To the millign people. 399 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 2: How much he's making, Yeah, the complaint says, based on 400 00:17:56,359 --> 00:17:59,200 Speaker 2: conversations between shadow Wald and his colleagues at Jane Street, 401 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 2: his companies from MILLENNAUMO, but so they don't know. He 402 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:05,560 Speaker 2: told his friends at Jane Street and then like Jane 403 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:07,760 Speaker 2: Street asked his friends how much he was making. They're like, 404 00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 2: all right, man, he's getting and then they put that 405 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 2: thing complaint. 406 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:14,920 Speaker 1: I can't imagine telling people so casually what I make, 407 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:16,639 Speaker 1: especially if it's a lot of money. 408 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:19,400 Speaker 2: I can like, he's leaving, he's leaving a financial firm 409 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:21,480 Speaker 2: for another financial firm, and like he goes out to 410 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:23,320 Speaker 2: drinks with his friends and they're like, oh man, what 411 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:26,840 Speaker 2: are they giving you? And he's like boob right, like 412 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:28,679 Speaker 2: like that's why he's leaving, right, Like, it's not like 413 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:30,320 Speaker 2: this is a very mercenary business. 414 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:32,879 Speaker 1: I don't know. He should have just bought a huge 415 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 1: apartment and let that speak for itself. That is how 416 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 1: much I'm making. 417 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:38,439 Speaker 2: Well, he hadn't made it yet. I feel like the 418 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:40,440 Speaker 2: day of he's like, oh my, look at how much 419 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:42,920 Speaker 2: money I'm making. I also love the best possible amount 420 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:46,240 Speaker 2: of money to make is boob right, Like a number 421 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 2: is so big that they can't publicize it. 422 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:51,399 Speaker 1: That is pretty amazing. So I guess, yeah, the two 423 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 1: things I want to know what the tradear how much 424 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:56,640 Speaker 1: this guy is making? Also, is this an unforced error 425 00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:00,400 Speaker 1: by Jane Street which doesn't have non competes? Like could 426 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:03,360 Speaker 1: this all have been avoided had they had a non compete? 427 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:06,480 Speaker 2: There are really like two different things, right, There's a noncompete, 428 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:08,399 Speaker 2: which usually it's like time limited. You can't go to 429 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:11,680 Speaker 2: another firm for six months, a year or two years. Yes, 430 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:13,480 Speaker 2: I think that would avoid that here, because what's it 431 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:15,560 Speaker 2: going to be like in a year, Like it seems unlikely. 432 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:17,520 Speaker 2: I don't know if the strategy is, but it seems 433 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:19,199 Speaker 2: unlikely Jane Street will still be making a lot of 434 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:21,680 Speaker 2: money on the strategy in a year because someone will 435 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:24,359 Speaker 2: notice it. Somehow Alpha gets competed away all over the place. 436 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:27,359 Speaker 2: Whatever this weird counterintuitive strategy is, Like, probably it'll decay. 437 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 1: I have an idea, what maybe it's uh, this is 438 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:33,199 Speaker 1: half a joke. This is a joke. Actually closed end 439 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:33,960 Speaker 1: fund arbitrages. 440 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:36,480 Speaker 2: Oh man, you love closed end trying evertise, I'm thinking 441 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:38,000 Speaker 2: it's not that, but right, so if you have a 442 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:40,439 Speaker 2: non compete and like the guy goes and sits on 443 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 2: a beach for a year and then he comes back, 444 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:45,400 Speaker 2: whatever he knew a year ago is just not valuable anymore. 445 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 2: It's not as valuable, and so that solves the problem. Now, 446 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:51,800 Speaker 2: it doesn't always solve every problem, because you know, you 447 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:54,159 Speaker 2: do have like a confidentiality agreement about IP because like 448 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:58,320 Speaker 2: there's some stuff that has value longer term, like if 449 00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:00,480 Speaker 2: you really know how, like Jane Street Systems, there's some 450 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:02,919 Speaker 2: chance that two years from now you could sell that 451 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 2: to someone and it would be valuable to them. Right. 452 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 2: So Jane Street does not have non competes, but they 453 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:09,679 Speaker 2: have confidentiality agreements. That's how you can't use what you 454 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:11,760 Speaker 2: learn here somewhere else. You know. They say in the 455 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:14,960 Speaker 2: complaint like, well, it's typical for people to take some 456 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:17,720 Speaker 2: time off between firms. This guy didn't. It's like, it's 457 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:20,120 Speaker 2: not typical. It's not like people just feel like taking 458 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 2: some time off. They do. Yeah, I would, but a 459 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 2: lot of people don't. It's typical because usually firms have 460 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:28,040 Speaker 2: non competes that require them to take time off. Yeah, 461 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 2: and he didn't. And so the impression from the complaint 462 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:32,480 Speaker 2: is that he had a real time sensitive trade and 463 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:34,119 Speaker 2: he's like I got to start the next day to 464 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 2: make as much money as I can from. 465 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:38,080 Speaker 1: This trade, and that's what he did allegedly. 466 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:40,600 Speaker 2: I don't. I think it's interesting because, like the non 467 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 2: compete is a really good solution because like it's clear, 468 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:45,920 Speaker 2: m you know that whatever the time period is, so 469 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:47,560 Speaker 2: let's say it's a year, you know, you can't go 470 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:49,840 Speaker 2: work for the competing firm for a year, and then 471 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 2: after that you can What's interesting here is Jane Street 472 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:56,520 Speaker 2: is arguing that these guys stole their intellectual property. As 473 00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 2: of today Thursday, we don't have Millennium's response, but I 474 00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:01,440 Speaker 2: assume their response be something like, no, we didn't, we 475 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 2: didn't steal their intellectual poverty. But there's like this wide 476 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:08,520 Speaker 2: overlap where if you work at a financial firm doing 477 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:12,119 Speaker 2: closed un fund arbitrage, right, and then you leave and 478 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:15,040 Speaker 2: you go to another financial firm, and you're like, I'm 479 00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:15,919 Speaker 2: going to close in fund. 480 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:19,360 Speaker 1: Arbittrge, I'm going to find closed on funds with huge discounts. Right. 481 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:21,920 Speaker 2: You're not gonna like forget everything you learned at the 482 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:23,720 Speaker 2: first firm, right, Like there's some amount of just like 483 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:26,880 Speaker 2: general skills and knowledge building and just like market experience 484 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:30,600 Speaker 2: that everyone understands is portable and goes with you, Like 485 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:32,960 Speaker 2: if you like download the code from your first firm, 486 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:35,320 Speaker 2: like that's bad, right, But a lot of stuff it's 487 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:37,520 Speaker 2: like the general experiences that you have at one firm 488 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:39,000 Speaker 2: are going to inform what you do at the next firm. 489 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:41,200 Speaker 2: And it's I think sort of hard to tease out 490 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:44,520 Speaker 2: which is which Sometimes which is why gardening leave is 491 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 2: such a good solution, because it's like you do nothing 492 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:48,000 Speaker 2: for a year, and then after that it's like we 493 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:50,760 Speaker 2: don't have to worry about it. Here, Like Jane Street 494 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:53,640 Speaker 2: makes it sound like this is a very complicated, very 495 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:57,280 Speaker 2: counterintuitive and weird trade that like is their secret sauce. 496 00:21:57,920 --> 00:21:59,720 Speaker 2: But what if it's just like noticing that the price 497 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:01,879 Speaker 2: is if some options are like too low, and like 498 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:04,480 Speaker 2: clicking on them right like then like kind of weird 499 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:06,359 Speaker 2: to say, like you have to forget that you noticed 500 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 2: that when you moved to another firm. 501 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:10,640 Speaker 1: My heart always hurts when I'm in a conversation about 502 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:13,520 Speaker 1: gardening leave because I've never been on gardening leave. I 503 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:16,720 Speaker 1: will never be on gardening leave. It sounds idyllic. 504 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:23,800 Speaker 2: When I left investment banking for deal Breaker, the Great 505 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 2: Wall Street comedy blog, I had, I want to say, 506 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:28,440 Speaker 2: three months of. 507 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:29,920 Speaker 1: Gardening leave sounds great. 508 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 2: I sat on my catch being terrified. I regret it 509 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 2: so much. I really wasted my gardening leave because I 510 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:40,160 Speaker 2: was like, I have made this huge career change. I'm 511 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:42,600 Speaker 2: getting paid so much less money. This is around the 512 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:45,160 Speaker 2: time that like Goldman had that programmer who still code, 513 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:46,919 Speaker 2: they had him prosecuted for still encoding. He went to 514 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 2: jail for a while, and so I spent some of 515 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:51,520 Speaker 2: my time thinking Goldman's going to kill me eventually. Like 516 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:53,440 Speaker 2: my last week of gardening leave, I talked to like 517 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 2: a Goldman PR person. He's like, no, this is great, 518 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:58,360 Speaker 2: We're excited for you. It was like so worried. But 519 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:01,000 Speaker 2: in any case, I spent my gardening leave being nervous 520 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:02,160 Speaker 2: and not partying. 521 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:03,359 Speaker 1: Oh I hate that. 522 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:07,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's really a shame. I did get to 523 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:08,920 Speaker 2: experience gardening leave once, but I didn't get to really 524 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:09,400 Speaker 2: enjoy it. 525 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:31,800 Speaker 1: Gardening leave wasn't that great. Take a big sip of water. 526 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 1: Let's get into hunter Brook. This is a meati. 527 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 2: One hunter It's a hedge fund. 528 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:40,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is something that you and I have talked. 529 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 2: About a lot in our private conversation. 530 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:46,639 Speaker 1: In our private conversations. Maybe explain what hunter Brook is 531 00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:48,880 Speaker 1: and we're pronouncing it with vowels. 532 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 2: Yes, the thing is called hunter Brook. Their website is 533 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:56,159 Speaker 2: it's h n t rb rka hunter Brook is. I 534 00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:58,119 Speaker 2: don't know how to describe it. Say it's a headphone. 535 00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:02,400 Speaker 2: That's also our newspaper. Sometimes I think it's a activist 536 00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:05,280 Speaker 2: short hedge fund that is very good at getting me 537 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:06,440 Speaker 2: to pay attention to it. 538 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:10,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know if I've seen it anywhere else, 539 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,240 Speaker 1: but maybe I'm just not looking at this. 540 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:17,080 Speaker 2: No. How to Work is is a media organization that 541 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:22,560 Speaker 2: does like investigative reporting around the world to find interesting news, 542 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:30,640 Speaker 2: and it funds its reporters by they take their scoops 543 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:33,720 Speaker 2: and they give them to its affiliated hedge fund. And 544 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:35,680 Speaker 2: if the hedge fund is like this is a market 545 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:38,879 Speaker 2: moving scoop, then they trade on it and then they 546 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:41,000 Speaker 2: publish the scoop and then the stock goes up or 547 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:44,199 Speaker 2: down or whatever it's about. The market moves, and then 548 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:46,439 Speaker 2: the hedge fund makes money, and it gives some of 549 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:49,000 Speaker 2: the money to the reporters to pay for the continued reporting. 550 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 2: It's not a typical journalistic business model. 551 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 1: True. 552 00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:57,440 Speaker 2: All journalistic business models involve some conflicts of interests. 553 00:24:57,720 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 1: True. 554 00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:01,359 Speaker 2: Possibly it maybe involves a little bit more conflict of ventures. Yeah, 555 00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:06,160 Speaker 2: because like your incentive is to make your story as 556 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:08,200 Speaker 2: market moving as possible. If you find some like bad 557 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 2: stuff about a company, and then I'll see you find 558 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:12,040 Speaker 2: some good stuff about the company, and like also it's 559 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:14,080 Speaker 2: like not that bad and like there's some mitigating factors. 560 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,560 Speaker 2: You're tempted to just be like, this is the worst 561 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:19,000 Speaker 2: company in the world, or this is the best company 562 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:20,200 Speaker 2: in the world, because you're on the move the stock 563 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,960 Speaker 2: price as much as possible. Yeah, So it is a 564 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 2: conflict in that way. 565 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:27,240 Speaker 1: I guess the part that feels strange to me is 566 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:30,920 Speaker 1: that the hedge fund sees it first before it's published. 567 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:33,640 Speaker 2: And that's the whole part I know, there's no other part. 568 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 2: That's how they make money. 569 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:37,360 Speaker 1: Well, in terms of like how they report things out, 570 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 1: they don't talk to insiders. They can't talk to insiders. 571 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:43,280 Speaker 2: If you're like a regular journalist at a regular journalistic publication, 572 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:45,720 Speaker 2: you can like call an insider at a company and 573 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:48,200 Speaker 2: be like, hey, is it doing fraud. If the insiders like, yes, 574 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:51,199 Speaker 2: it's doing fraud. Here are some secret documents proving it, 575 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:53,040 Speaker 2: you're like, oh my god, this is a great scoop, right, 576 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:55,480 Speaker 2: But if you're a Hunter Book and you do that, 577 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:57,359 Speaker 2: then you're like, oh, no, this is inside information. We 578 00:25:57,400 --> 00:25:59,520 Speaker 2: can't trade on it. So they try to stay away 579 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:02,120 Speaker 2: from information underli on published sources. 580 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:05,040 Speaker 1: So let's talk about what Hunter Book has done so far. 581 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:09,480 Speaker 1: They officially debuted in early April. I believe their first 582 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:12,680 Speaker 1: article was on United Wholesale mortgage. Now they've come out 583 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 1: with another splashy report that you wrote about. I'm impressed, 584 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,720 Speaker 1: honestly by the volume so far, because there's a lot 585 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:24,000 Speaker 1: of work that goes into investigative journalism of this degree. 586 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:26,359 Speaker 2: Also like into activist short selling, the sort of like 587 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:29,159 Speaker 2: well known activist short selling funds. You know, every so 588 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:30,840 Speaker 2: often they'll put up a short report, but it's not 589 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:33,080 Speaker 2: like a daily news meeting to figure out what's going 590 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:35,520 Speaker 2: to go on. The real meeting is like somewhere in between. 591 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:35,719 Speaker 1: Right. 592 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:37,679 Speaker 2: My question when they launched was like, what's it going 593 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 2: to look like on the second day, because the first 594 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:41,920 Speaker 2: day it launches the big investigation. The second day is 595 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,520 Speaker 2: that like bumped down the feed so they can do 596 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:47,239 Speaker 2: like more local news, and that's there is no kind 597 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:49,359 Speaker 2: of looks like a short seller's website where it's like 598 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:51,560 Speaker 2: that big report is on top for a week or so. 599 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:53,359 Speaker 2: But now it looks a little bit more like a 600 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:56,640 Speaker 2: news organization where like they've had two like big stories 601 00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:58,680 Speaker 2: in the sense of like kind of short investigations this week, 602 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:00,520 Speaker 2: but there's like a spinoff story for one of them. 603 00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 2: It's like they's the other stuff. So one of the 604 00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:05,199 Speaker 2: stories this week was like an oil company that has 605 00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:07,680 Speaker 2: been telling investors it's going to reopen a trilling platform 606 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:09,560 Speaker 2: and Hunter Bruk thinks they're not. And it's just like 607 00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:12,840 Speaker 2: a very straightforward kind of small short bet. It's like 608 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:15,119 Speaker 2: this company is going to have like a little bit 609 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:17,080 Speaker 2: worse news than the market expects, you know, So they 610 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:19,119 Speaker 2: traded on that. I don't know. That almost feels like 611 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:21,840 Speaker 2: something like a hedge finanalyst would come up with and 612 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 2: trade on and not bother to publish. It's just not 613 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:26,520 Speaker 2: that interesting a news story, right. But the other one 614 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:29,240 Speaker 2: they had was about Pasco, the big Korean like steel 615 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:31,360 Speaker 2: company and Conglomberate doing a lot of work with very 616 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:35,560 Speaker 2: unpleasant military hunter and Myanmar, and that one they didn't 617 00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:38,480 Speaker 2: trade on. Yeah, they said they did this big investigation 618 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:41,640 Speaker 2: and they said, we're not trading on this, and I 619 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:45,480 Speaker 2: was curious why. And I think the two leading answers 620 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:48,359 Speaker 2: are one that it might not be that market moving, 621 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:50,760 Speaker 2: which is like you can think of that as being 622 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:53,800 Speaker 2: like a depressing story of like complicity and human rights 623 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:55,880 Speaker 2: abuses actually doesn't matter to share. 624 00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:58,480 Speaker 1: Olders, Cold Embrace of capitalism. 625 00:27:57,840 --> 00:27:59,880 Speaker 2: Or you can be like you know, one reader email 626 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:02,439 Speaker 2: to be like Posca's involvement in Men war has actually 627 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 2: been known for a long time. It's like been on 628 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:07,600 Speaker 2: an ESG exclusion list. Like it might not be market 629 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,159 Speaker 2: moving because like it's news to you, it's news to 630 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:12,879 Speaker 2: many people, it's news to many of your general interest readers, 631 00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:14,200 Speaker 2: but it may not be news to the market. 632 00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:14,560 Speaker 1: Right. 633 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:17,439 Speaker 2: The other explanation for why they didn't short Pasco that 634 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:19,800 Speaker 2: I find much funnier is that South Korea has banned 635 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:20,399 Speaker 2: a short selling. 636 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:24,919 Speaker 1: Maybe like the winner there, it could be. 637 00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:27,040 Speaker 2: It could honestly be either because like it's not like 638 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:28,440 Speaker 2: it's huge market moving news. 639 00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:32,359 Speaker 1: I don't know. It seems like a hard business journalism. Yes, 640 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 1: it's bone crushingly hard, but also short selling is super 641 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 1: hard too, especially in this market. But also there's the 642 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 1: question of like, even if you are right, your thesis 643 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:46,120 Speaker 1: is right, there's no guarantee that the stock is going 644 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:47,560 Speaker 1: to do what you think it's going to do. And 645 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:49,440 Speaker 1: I think that's happened to a lot of short sellers 646 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:50,760 Speaker 1: in recent history. 647 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 2: People hate short sellers, Yeah, it is part of it, 648 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:55,760 Speaker 2: and in particular, like when you talk about recent history, 649 00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:58,760 Speaker 2: Like since like the memestock era, if it gets out 650 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:01,760 Speaker 2: that you are short a stock, that stock could go 651 00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:03,560 Speaker 2: to the moon just because people are mad at you, 652 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 2: to the point that, like some number of activist short 653 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:10,000 Speaker 2: sellers have gotten out of the business or said they'd 654 00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:10,360 Speaker 2: get out of. 655 00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 1: The business, have gone underground. 656 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:14,720 Speaker 2: Gone underground because like it used to be that if 657 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:16,200 Speaker 2: you found a company that you thought was a fraud 658 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:17,920 Speaker 2: and you published a report saying it's a fraud, people 659 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:19,800 Speaker 2: would read it, and if you were right and convincing, 660 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:21,680 Speaker 2: then the stock would go down. Now, if you think 661 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:24,120 Speaker 2: of company's a fraud and you publish that report, people 662 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:26,040 Speaker 2: on Reddit might say, we have to make that stock 663 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:27,680 Speaker 2: go up to punish the evil short seller. So it's 664 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:30,280 Speaker 2: just not as worth it. One possible advantage of the 665 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:33,760 Speaker 2: Hunter Brick business model is like, to the extent they 666 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:36,120 Speaker 2: convince people that they're a media company and not a 667 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:40,320 Speaker 2: short seller, you like somewhat avoid that. Instead of instead 668 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:42,400 Speaker 2: of being like, ah, this hedge fund is shorting the stock, 669 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:45,000 Speaker 2: let's make it go up, you're like, oh, they've published 670 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:47,760 Speaker 2: this media company published a report about human rights abuses. 671 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:50,200 Speaker 2: That's bad, right, Like, yeah, there's some chance of you 672 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:52,760 Speaker 2: like getting a little bit more of a sympathetic audience. 673 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:55,280 Speaker 1: Well, we'll see if they do take a shot at 674 00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:57,640 Speaker 1: a stock that has any. 675 00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:00,280 Speaker 2: It'd be amazing if they were like game Stop, not 676 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:01,120 Speaker 2: a very good company. 677 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:03,920 Speaker 1: I'm gonna say, like, if they come after a company 678 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 1: that has any chance of becoming a meme stock, like 679 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:10,040 Speaker 1: I think about United Wholesale Mortgage, I don't even think 680 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:12,240 Speaker 1: Wall Street Bets could get excited about that one. It 681 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:14,160 Speaker 1: just it doesn't have that curb appeal. 682 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,000 Speaker 2: That's right. The oil company they went after this week 683 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:20,160 Speaker 2: is interesting just because it's like a six hundred million 684 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:22,640 Speaker 2: dollar market cut. Like you're not playing in territory where 685 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:24,520 Speaker 2: like Ro Street Bets gonna have some fun. 686 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:26,520 Speaker 1: Did you want to talk to you on musk worn. 687 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 2: And that was the Money Stuff Podcast. 688 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:34,840 Speaker 1: I'm Matt Levian and I'm Katie Greifelt. 689 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:37,360 Speaker 2: You can find my work by subscribing to the Money 690 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:38,200 Speaker 2: Stuff newsletter on. 691 00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:42,480 Speaker 1: And you can find me on Bloomberg TV every day 692 00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:44,560 Speaker 1: between ten to eleven am Eastern. 693 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:46,479 Speaker 2: We'd love to hear from you. You can send an 694 00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:49,640 Speaker 2: email to Moneypod at Bloomberg dot net. Ask us a 695 00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:51,360 Speaker 2: question and we find answer it on air. 696 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:53,960 Speaker 1: You can also subscribe to our show wherever you're listening 697 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:56,000 Speaker 1: right now and leave us a review. It helps some 698 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:56,960 Speaker 1: more people find the show. 699 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:01,480 Speaker 2: The Money Step Podcast is produced by anim Masaracus and Moses. 700 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:04,560 Speaker 1: And our theme music was composed by Blake Maples. 701 00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:07,680 Speaker 2: Brandon Francis Nenham is our executive producer, and. 702 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:09,760 Speaker 1: Sage Bauman is Bloomberg's head of podcast. 703 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:12,440 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to The Money Stuff Podcast. We'll be 704 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:14,000 Speaker 2: back next week with more boo