1 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:06,080 Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet as a production 2 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:13,640 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd and this 3 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:14,720 Speaker 1: is There Are No Girls. 4 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:15,120 Speaker 2: On the Internet. 5 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: Welcome to the brand new season of There No Girls 6 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 1: on the Internet, where we explore the intersection of technology, 7 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:27,040 Speaker 1: social media, and identity. And this is our first iteration 8 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:30,280 Speaker 1: of our weekly news roundup of our new season. We're 9 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:33,200 Speaker 1: bringing you stories you might have missed this week, and 10 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:36,559 Speaker 1: another big first, we have our first ever guest co 11 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:41,159 Speaker 1: host for our roundup, the Amazing, the Wonderful that Like Media, 12 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:45,360 Speaker 1: Maven Kristen Conger of Unladylike Media. Kristin, thank you so 13 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:46,160 Speaker 1: much for being here. 14 00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:49,519 Speaker 3: Oh, thank you so much for having me. I'm honored 15 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 3: to be the first. 16 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 1: I think of you as kind of like a like 17 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:55,920 Speaker 1: a virtuoso. You are the co author of the book Unladylike, 18 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 1: a Field Guide to Smashing the Patriarchy and Claiming your Space. 19 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 1: Awesome title, most of two great podcasts, Conspiracy she wrote 20 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:05,160 Speaker 1: and Unladylike. We're in the middle of a series called 21 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:08,760 Speaker 1: Gender War Games. What is that? For folks who don't know? 22 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 3: Yes, so for anyone who has missed it, we right 23 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:18,720 Speaker 3: now are kind of living in this uncanny valley of 24 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 3: various forms of gender panic and honestly, gender war games 25 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:29,000 Speaker 3: is partly like my own excuse to talk to like 26 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 3: smart feminists about all of these this wild gender and 27 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:39,960 Speaker 3: anti gender discourse happening right now. So if you're feeling 28 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 3: kind of spun out, come get some contexts gender war games. 29 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:48,120 Speaker 4: Come find out why. 30 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:51,560 Speaker 1: Well, speaking of finding out, why, are you ready to 31 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 1: dive into some news that folks might have missed this week? 32 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 4: I'm so ready. 33 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 1: Okay, So we got to start with an update on 34 00:01:57,360 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 1: my girl. I have talked about her on the podcast 35 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 1: few times because I'm fascinated. But we have an Elizabeth 36 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:06,960 Speaker 1: Holmes update. Are you familiar with Elizabeth Holmes? 37 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:08,680 Speaker 4: I mean, how could I not be? I should have 38 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:10,839 Speaker 4: worn a black turtleneck. 39 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 1: In honor and like spoken in a weird, fake deep 40 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:17,080 Speaker 1: voice to signal that you're like a serious tech person. 41 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:18,840 Speaker 1: That's my Elizabeth Holmes voice. 42 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:20,399 Speaker 4: It's good, it is good. 43 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Holmes, the disgrace CEO of the scam blood testing 44 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 1: company Faranos, who is now in prison for defrauding investors 45 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 1: because her blood testing was all a scam. Anyway, So 46 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 1: Weed just recently found out what her husband is up 47 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 1: to these days, and that is, you know, securing the 48 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:41,239 Speaker 1: family business, you know, the scam family. He is securing 49 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:45,240 Speaker 1: funding for a brand new blood testing startup company that 50 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:46,240 Speaker 1: he is launching. 51 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 4: My mouth fell on the floor when I read that. 52 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:54,360 Speaker 1: Yes, I mean, if there's one thing these people have, 53 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:58,520 Speaker 1: it's the audacity, you know, really no no bounds. So, 54 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:01,240 Speaker 1: according to The New York Times, her husband Paul Evans, 55 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:04,520 Speaker 1: is raising money for a company called Hemanthus, which means 56 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 1: blood flower in Greek. And apparently it's already accumulated millions 57 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 1: of dollars in funding. Who would give these like at 58 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 1: this point, like, if you're giving this person your money, 59 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 1: you get what you get. 60 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:17,639 Speaker 3: Like come on, yeah, I think that you you should 61 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 3: be there should be an extra tax, Like you should 62 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 3: have to give that money away. 63 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:27,400 Speaker 1: Totally agreed. So this company says it is the future 64 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 1: of diagnostics and a radically new approach to health testing 65 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:33,960 Speaker 1: and will use AI to test blood and other bodily 66 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 1: fluids like so i'va and urine for diseases. So it 67 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 1: sounds like just like theorhanose, but instead of just blood, 68 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 1: it's also other bodily fluids. 69 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 3: What is this couple just you know, are they just 70 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 3: really fluids? You know what? 71 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 4: And I don't want to follow up answer. I'm so 72 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 4: so sorry, I asked. 73 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 1: So the cut really called this out, saying that it's 74 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 1: basically the same company that you've had a photo of 75 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 1: the new company's prototype, which looks suspiciously like Aaronos's now 76 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 1: defunct testing machine. They write, anyone else experiencing deja vu 77 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 1: to the company. Here's what they had to say. They 78 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 1: were like, we know this looks bad, but trust us 79 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 1: on X they wrote, quote, we're Hymanthos. Yes, our CEO, 80 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 1: Billy Evans is Elizabeth Holmes partner. Skepticism is rational. We 81 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:27,600 Speaker 1: must clear a higher bar, so we will communicate directly 82 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:31,599 Speaker 1: the unfiltered truth, no intermediaries. We prefer to build first, 83 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 1: talk later. The science, when ready, will stand on its 84 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 1: own merits. But we feel compelled to introduce ourselves because 85 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 1: of the recent media coverage. And yeah, I just really 86 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 1: I almost almost kind of have to respect it, Like 87 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 1: I wish I had this confidence to go not just 88 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 1: into a health testing company, but specifically going into a 89 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 1: company that tests blood, just like Baronos did. Like you 90 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 1: almost have to respect it. So I do have a question, 91 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:00,719 Speaker 1: which is that if they are a mayor couple, is 92 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 1: it possible that Holmes could one day be profiting from 93 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:06,599 Speaker 1: this new blood testing company, because you know, it could 94 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:09,360 Speaker 1: be marital property since he started this company after they 95 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 1: were already married. I don't know the answer to this, 96 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 1: but I am very curious, Like I don't necessarily like 97 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:19,320 Speaker 1: a dynamic where she is revealed to be defrauding investors 98 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:21,239 Speaker 1: with a blood scam and then gets to make money 99 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:22,560 Speaker 1: from blood testing later on. 100 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:26,440 Speaker 3: Well, and also with the added bonus of not having 101 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 3: to wait until she's home from prison because her husband. 102 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:36,839 Speaker 4: Is just at home cooking up what's it called hymantheus hamanthea. 103 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:38,239 Speaker 1: It's also terrible made. 104 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 4: So maybe we shouldn't be worried. 105 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:44,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean, whenever we talk about Holmes, I 106 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:47,719 Speaker 1: do like to just remind folks that she is responsible 107 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 1: for like actual harm. Her blood scam told a woman 108 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:53,599 Speaker 1: who was prone to miscarriage that she would never be 109 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:56,120 Speaker 1: able to have children. It told somebody that they were 110 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:59,480 Speaker 1: HIV positive, and this person could not afford to get 111 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 1: like an action blood test for some time, and so 112 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:04,200 Speaker 1: like had to just wait while they accumulated enough money 113 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:06,920 Speaker 1: to like get another blood test that told them like no, no, 114 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 1: you actually you don't have HIV and also misdiagnosed somebody 115 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 1: is having cancer. And so Holmes basically says that none 116 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:16,800 Speaker 1: of this should disqualify her from running similar kinds of 117 00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 1: health test and companies. In fact, to this day, she 118 00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 1: maintains her innocence and says that failure isn't fraud, even 119 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 1: though like, yeah, she might have defrauded some people, but like, 120 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:27,120 Speaker 1: come on, it's just business. 121 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:27,719 Speaker 4: Wow. 122 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:30,720 Speaker 1: And while Holmes might not be directly involved in her 123 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:34,280 Speaker 1: partner startup, she does say that her days working in 124 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:37,720 Speaker 1: health tech are far from over, and in fact, she's 125 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:42,479 Speaker 1: already working on patents from prison. She says, there is 126 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:44,360 Speaker 1: not a day that I have not continued to work 127 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:47,359 Speaker 1: on my research and inventions. I remain completely committed to 128 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 1: my dream of making affordable healthcare solutions available to everybody, 129 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 1: which like girls keep them at this point, I don't 130 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:54,279 Speaker 1: let me need them. 131 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 4: I just have to say, bravo. That was I mean, 132 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:00,560 Speaker 4: that was a beautiful you put me. I felt like 133 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 4: I was in the boardroom with Elizabeth. 134 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:05,839 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I've been doing that voice for the 135 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:08,799 Speaker 1: longest step. When the dropout was being released on Hulu, 136 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 1: I was like watching it, like like I was like 137 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 1: very into it. I have been mimicking her voice for 138 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 1: a long time. I feel like I feel like it's 139 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 1: like in my in my repertourna. 140 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 4: You drop into it seamlessly. 141 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you. 142 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 2: Let's take a quick break at our back. 143 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:45,080 Speaker 1: Okay, so we have to talk about this recent news 144 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 1: with the Federal porn band. Are we at the making 145 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:53,280 Speaker 1: all pornography a federal crime stage of Project twenty twenty five. 146 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 1: Potentially one of the projects stated goals was to permanently 147 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 1: criminalize all pornography, and now Mike Lee, a Republican Senator 148 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 1: from Utah, has introduced a bill that would do exactly that. 149 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 1: Lee recently introduced the Interstate Obscenity Definition Act or IODA, 150 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 1: which would effectively criminalize all pornography nationwide by legally redefining 151 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 1: what it means to be obscene in a way that 152 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 1: virtually includes all visual representations of sex. According to the bill, 153 00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 1: quote a picture, image, graphic image, file, film, videotape, or 154 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:30,080 Speaker 1: other visual depiction of any media that quote appeals to 155 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:33,840 Speaker 1: the prurient interest of innudity, sex, or excretion would be 156 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 1: considered criminal. So, like people are pointing out that, like 157 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:40,600 Speaker 1: that could mean Game of Thrones episodes, right, Yeah. 158 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:43,040 Speaker 3: I mean also, it's been a long time since I 159 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:46,680 Speaker 3: took my mass com law class, but I feel like 160 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:51,079 Speaker 3: we've kind of like constitutionally supreme court wise, we've. 161 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:51,679 Speaker 4: Been around the block. 162 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, So Lee Lee addresses that he says obscenity is 163 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:59,199 Speaker 1: not protected by the First Amendment, but hazy and unforceable 164 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:03,280 Speaker 1: legal definition have allowed extreme pornography to saturate American society. 165 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:06,480 Speaker 1: How to reach countless children, Our bill updates the legal 166 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 1: definition of obscenity for the Internet age, so this content 167 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:13,960 Speaker 1: can be taken down and it's pedlars prosecuted. So one 168 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:15,320 Speaker 1: of the things that we talk about on the show 169 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:18,839 Speaker 1: a lot is like, if when you hear someone using 170 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:21,560 Speaker 1: language that is like we need to do xyz to 171 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 1: the Internet to protect children, your Spidey senses should sort 172 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 1: of tingle, because that is exactly the language that people 173 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:30,080 Speaker 1: who want to restrict the Internet use before taking some 174 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 1: like draconian action. Because what happens when the powers that 175 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:35,800 Speaker 1: be decide that content related to the existence of trans 176 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 1: folks or queer folks or any other kind of LGBTQ 177 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:42,200 Speaker 1: person is pornographic and thus needs to be like legislated 178 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 1: off the Internet, and it's it's peddler's put behind bars, 179 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:48,599 Speaker 1: you know. Like most rational people, I also want to 180 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:52,960 Speaker 1: keep explicit content away from kids. But research is super 181 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:55,560 Speaker 1: clear that when you restrict the Internet through things like 182 00:09:56,160 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 1: verification laws that verify your age or like laws where 183 00:09:59,880 --> 00:10:02,320 Speaker 1: you you have to show your government idea to access 184 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:05,440 Speaker 1: certain content, that is not effective, that does not effectively 185 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 1: keep kids away from explicit content. So all you are 186 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:12,120 Speaker 1: really doing then is like setting the stage for extremists 187 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:14,440 Speaker 1: to have the power to legislate anything they don't like 188 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 1: off of the Internet. 189 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 4: Exactly. 190 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:20,160 Speaker 3: And it's fascinating that it's the same group of people 191 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 3: who are now pushing for an extreme kind of anti 192 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:29,439 Speaker 3: porn band while also celebrating social platforms removing censorship. 193 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 4: It exactly makes sense. 194 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:34,720 Speaker 1: It makes no sense, and it's one of those things 195 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 1: that like, if you follow the thread, their argument completely 196 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:42,240 Speaker 1: falls apart. So speaking of platform moderation and what is 197 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:45,280 Speaker 1: and is not allowed on platforms, I am so sorry everybody. 198 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 1: We have to talk about Kanye West, folks who have 199 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 1: been listening to the show for a while, know that 200 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:53,560 Speaker 1: I had kind of a like Kanye West like me 201 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 1: paying attention to him funeral where I was like, I'm 202 00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:58,680 Speaker 1: just I'm leaving him in the past. I'm moving forward. 203 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 1: But so I am like loave to talk about this man. 204 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:04,719 Speaker 1: But what's happening with his new song really says more 205 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:07,200 Speaker 1: about the state of Facebook's moderation than it says about 206 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:09,559 Speaker 1: Kanye himself. So if you've not checked in with Kanye 207 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 1: in a while, he's making new music. He is hanging 208 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:15,800 Speaker 1: out with like the worst of the worst Z list 209 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:20,079 Speaker 1: extremist internet personalities. They will do these like live streams 210 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:23,320 Speaker 1: from their hangout sessions and it just looks grim like 211 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 1: it looks like something out of a David Lynch film 212 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:29,840 Speaker 1: where there they'll be like in a beautiful waterfront mansion 213 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 1: and then it's just like all these goons wearing all black, 214 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:36,959 Speaker 1: like it's just a It just as a very weird 215 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 1: vibe and the vibes look terrible when there, I guess, 216 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 1: let's put it that way. So Kanye released a new song. 217 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:45,360 Speaker 1: The song is called I'm going to call it Smiles Schmidler. 218 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:47,600 Speaker 1: That is not what the song is called but what 219 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:49,800 Speaker 1: you're thinking that is the name of the song, right, 220 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:50,520 Speaker 1: you feel me? 221 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:52,080 Speaker 4: Gotcha? Gotcha taken up? 222 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:55,680 Speaker 1: So yeah, I just did. Our producer Mike and I 223 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 1: had a whole conversation. I was like, I don't even 224 00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:00,199 Speaker 1: really feel comfortable like saying the name of the song 225 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 1: on Mike. I don't want there to be like audio 226 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:05,800 Speaker 1: of me saying this. So yeah, well college Schmele Schmitler. 227 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:08,080 Speaker 1: But you know, you know what it is, and yeah, 228 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:12,120 Speaker 1: the song it sounds exactly like what you're thinking it is. 229 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 1: It's all about how the trials and tribulations of Kanye 230 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:20,120 Speaker 1: West's life have turned him into a Nazi. Now, most 231 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:23,960 Speaker 1: streaming platforms and social media platforms will not allow a 232 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 1: song called Schmeile Schmitler where the chorus is schmile Schmitler 233 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 1: over and over again on their platforms. Right except Instagram, 234 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 1: as it turns out, because according to a reporting from 235 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:36,120 Speaker 1: four or four media major shout out to them. They've 236 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:38,840 Speaker 1: been like, really on this story, the song is all 237 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 1: over Instagram, they right. While other social media sites and 238 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:46,040 Speaker 1: streaming services rush to scrub Kanye West's pro nazi song 239 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 1: from their platforms, the curious or enthused can find memes, remixes, 240 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 1: and unedited audio of West's new song all over Instagram. 241 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:57,920 Speaker 1: And I mean it's as if that's not bad enough. 242 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:02,760 Speaker 1: This is like exublicitly against Instagram's platform policies. In fact, 243 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:05,960 Speaker 1: Nazism is one of the only specific groups that Meta 244 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:08,719 Speaker 1: calls out by name in its own rules. In the 245 00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:12,319 Speaker 1: current version of its Community Standards Policy regarding Dangerous Organizations 246 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 1: and Individuals, the company says it will remove any content 247 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 1: that promotes Nazis, saying, quote, we remove content that glorify, support, 248 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:23,440 Speaker 1: or represents ideologies that promote hate, such as Nazism and 249 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 1: white supremacy. But for four found that there are reels 250 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 1: that use this song that have over one million views. 251 00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 1: There's one reel that calls it quote the Song of 252 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 1: the Summer, which, FYI, I'm pretty sure it's not right. 253 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 1: Do you wait well side question? Do you have any 254 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:44,280 Speaker 1: like potential candidates for the actual song of the Summer? 255 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:46,680 Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, no, not off the top of my head, 256 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:47,560 Speaker 4: what about you? 257 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 1: I had to look it up, and I will admit that, 258 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:51,840 Speaker 1: like in the list, I felt very old because I 259 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:56,080 Speaker 1: was like, oh, half of these songs, I know, I know, I. 260 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:57,960 Speaker 4: Was like I need to go do my millennial homework. 261 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:01,280 Speaker 1: I know, trust me, if you like me, there's no 262 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 1: shame of admitting, Like, we'll put some lists in the 263 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:06,560 Speaker 1: show notes. Let me, I will be honestly like I was, like, 264 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 1: I don't know half of these songs. I'm gonna say 265 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 1: it's Luther by Kendrick Lamar and Sizza or like Charlie 266 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:13,959 Speaker 1: XCX or something like that. But like, I know one 267 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:16,199 Speaker 1: thing is for sure, and it's not Smiles Schmidler. That 268 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:18,000 Speaker 1: is not the song of the summer. 269 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 3: Absolutely not well, And so you mentioned that this was 270 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:25,920 Speaker 3: getting traction on Instagram. 271 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 4: What about Facebook or is it just limited to Instagram 272 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:30,920 Speaker 4: at this point? 273 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 1: That is a great question. I my sense is because 274 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 1: Instagram and this this is my sense. My sense is 275 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:44,479 Speaker 1: because Instagram is much more like short form video heavy ie. 276 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 1: I would bet it's showing up there more than Facebook. 277 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 1: But I need to look into That's actually a very 278 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 1: good question. 279 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:52,480 Speaker 3: I just assume if it's if it's something bad, it's 280 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:53,640 Speaker 3: gotta be on Facebook too. 281 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:56,200 Speaker 1: I don't know. Don't even get me started. Like if 282 00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 1: Facebook has zero haters, I am dead. I'll just put 283 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:01,280 Speaker 1: it that way. There are like number one Borce platform 284 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 1: around here, and so like, if folks are wondering, like 285 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 1: how is this song showing up on reels, it is 286 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 1: showing up in like the grossest ways that you can imagine. 287 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 1: One reel depicts a white dude in khaki pants dancing 288 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:17,120 Speaker 1: to the song in front of a glowing, spitting swastika, 289 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:20,760 Speaker 1: and the caption reads white Dad's getting turned to Kanye's 290 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:24,000 Speaker 1: new song at the summer barbecue flame emoji, which I 291 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 1: read is like a pretty clear reference to the Holocaust, 292 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 1: And that one reel has been viewed almost a million times. 293 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 1: The account that shared it describes itself as a quote 294 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 1: race realist and meme guy. In the bio, much of 295 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 1: the content is memed up clips of avowed white supremacist 296 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 1: Nick Fuentez. So like it's very explicitly and overtly dealing 297 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:51,000 Speaker 1: with like Nazism, white supremacy. Like they're not taking they're 298 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:53,440 Speaker 1: not like they're not being like an obscure about that. 299 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 1: Like that's like very clearer. And if that's not bad enough, 300 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 1: I think to add insult to injury. Facebook when asked 301 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:04,360 Speaker 1: about this, they honestly like speak to us like we're 302 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:07,720 Speaker 1: stupid because four four actually reached out to Facebook and 303 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 1: like ask like, why is this kind of content allowed 304 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:13,640 Speaker 1: on your platform even when it's explicitly disallowed by your policy, 305 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 1: like called out by name, and their response is very frustrating. 306 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 1: They said, we recognize that users may share content that 307 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 1: includes references to designated dangerous organizations and individuals in the 308 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:27,920 Speaker 1: context of social or political discourse. This includes content reporting 309 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 1: on neutraally discussing or condemning dangerous organizations and individuals or 310 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 1: their activities. So the kind of reels that four or 311 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 1: four media found, those are not neutral, They are not 312 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 1: neutrally discussing, They certainly are not condemning. But the ideology 313 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:47,920 Speaker 1: being talked about in this song, if anything, like some 314 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:50,040 Speaker 1: of them are maybe making fun of that, you can 315 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:53,240 Speaker 1: maybe argue that, but most of them are pretty queerly 316 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:56,320 Speaker 1: and explicitly celebrating it. And so like, why even make 317 00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:59,960 Speaker 1: a rule that exuplicitly names and bans the glorification of 318 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 1: Nazism if you're not going to actually abide by it. 319 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:06,080 Speaker 3: Right, and then come around and call it like try 320 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:10,240 Speaker 3: to twist what is obviously like a song intended to 321 00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:17,200 Speaker 3: troll and like terrorize and call it like, oh. 322 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:19,160 Speaker 4: So it's reporting and discourse, like. 323 00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 1: What exactly, And in case anybody's wondering. On Joe Rogan's podcast, 324 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:26,480 Speaker 1: he talked about the song and he said it's kind 325 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:32,400 Speaker 1: of catchy. Stop it. Yeah, So like yeah, that's there's 326 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:38,800 Speaker 1: that okay. So speaking of things that are gross and horrifying, 327 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:43,159 Speaker 1: let's check in with what's going on on x slash Twitter. 328 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 1: If you'n't even like me, you're probably like not spending 329 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:47,240 Speaker 1: a lot of time there. I do not blame you, 330 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:49,399 Speaker 1: but a little update as to what's going on on 331 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:53,560 Speaker 1: that platform. According to kalinicule Tie, a research re at Bellingcat, 332 00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 1: users have been using Rock, which is ex's like AI chatbot, 333 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:01,120 Speaker 1: to undress women in the comment of their posts, and 334 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 1: Groc is sort of doing it. According to PC mag, 335 00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:08,879 Speaker 1: while the chatbot rejects prompts for completely nude images, it 336 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:13,000 Speaker 1: does fulfill remove her clothes requests with AI generated images 337 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:16,439 Speaker 1: of women in bikinis or lingerie. Groc's responses are public 338 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:20,680 Speaker 1: and appear as replies to the original prompts. Uh, pretty gross. 339 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:23,159 Speaker 1: So like if I were to post something on X 340 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:27,359 Speaker 1: or Twitter, somebody could say remove her clothes and Groc 341 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:31,600 Speaker 1: would serve up an image, an AI generated image of 342 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:35,120 Speaker 1: whoever in a bikini or lingerie is just like it's 343 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:38,879 Speaker 1: just really fucked, like there's no other and it's like 344 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 1: other AI chatbots don't do this, right, like other AI 345 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:45,639 Speaker 1: chatbots have guardrails against this that Groc does not. 346 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:50,359 Speaker 3: Yeah, it seems like Groc is uh is he like he? 347 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:52,680 Speaker 3: Why am I gendering broc oh God? 348 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 1: But you know, Grock's a guy. 349 00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:57,639 Speaker 4: He's a. 350 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:04,720 Speaker 3: But it's especially unhinged though, right because I was also 351 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:09,600 Speaker 3: seeing I've seen headlines as well about like just wild 352 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:16,960 Speaker 3: kind of like South African, like wild racist kind of 353 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:18,400 Speaker 3: stuff being baked into Rock. 354 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:21,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, so we were talking about this. Producer Maca and 355 00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:23,679 Speaker 1: I were talking about this before we got online. I 356 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:25,159 Speaker 1: was like, oh, I'm just speaking about Crock and he 357 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:28,960 Speaker 1: was like, oh, the South Africa thing. So basically Elon Musk, 358 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:32,760 Speaker 1: who is South African, was annoyed that GROC was not 359 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:38,720 Speaker 1: serving up like enough racially inflammatory content about how they're 360 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:42,680 Speaker 1: bringing South African, like white South Africans to the United States. 361 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:46,120 Speaker 1: So I guess they overcorrected because now when you ask 362 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:48,880 Speaker 1: Rock anything, it's like, oh, it's just like the oppression 363 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:50,800 Speaker 1: of the white South Africans, like you could be acting 364 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 1: for a recipe and it's like, oh, are you also 365 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 1: interested in the plight of white South Africans. They really 366 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:02,639 Speaker 1: the pendulum has swung in the other direction, Mike, Do 367 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:04,400 Speaker 1: I have I summarized that correctly? 368 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:05,080 Speaker 4: Yeah? 369 00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:07,720 Speaker 5: I think that's right. I think they just like turned 370 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:12,439 Speaker 5: up the white Afrikaanners dial and it's like any question. 371 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:15,920 Speaker 5: I saw somebody submit a haiku that was like had 372 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:18,920 Speaker 5: nothing to do with anything, and it was like, oh, yes, 373 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:21,919 Speaker 5: this is like the blood of the white africaners, like 374 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:23,359 Speaker 5: my god, GROC like set. 375 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:32,080 Speaker 1: Her down, settled down rock. Oh so yeah, honestly, like, 376 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:37,120 Speaker 1: I have never heard anybody say a positive thing about GROC. Yeah, 377 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:41,200 Speaker 1: I don't think it's going well over there. So about 378 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:46,080 Speaker 1: the non consensual like undressing of women, you know, When 379 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 1: pointed to a post about this and asked about the 380 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:54,399 Speaker 1: guardrails that GROC has against non consensual AI generated explicit content, 381 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:58,080 Speaker 1: GROC responded with an apology and said, this incident highlights 382 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:00,119 Speaker 1: a gap in our safeguards which failed to blow like 383 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:03,960 Speaker 1: a harmful prompt, violating our ethical standards on consent and privacy. 384 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:07,160 Speaker 1: We recognize the need for stronger protections and are actively 385 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:10,640 Speaker 1: working to enhance our safety mechanisms, including better prompt filtering 386 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:13,760 Speaker 1: and reinforcement learning. We are also reviewing our policies to 387 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:16,920 Speaker 1: ensure clearer consent protocols. So like, at least Groc knows 388 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:20,119 Speaker 1: what he's doing is wrong. At least I really I 389 00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:23,920 Speaker 1: should not be answer pomorphizing AI, but I do it 390 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:25,679 Speaker 1: constantly in my head, even though I shouldn't. 391 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 3: Well, in twenty twenty five, we are all at this 392 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 3: point programmed to make a public apology, make a make 393 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:35,200 Speaker 3: a yes, a normal apology, and notes app Yeah. 394 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:38,359 Speaker 1: Groc knows when called out, Like what the proper thing 395 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 1: to do is just apologize very quickly via you know, 396 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 1: an apology that sounds like Verry Wordsmith. So like, I 397 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:47,720 Speaker 1: something about this story gets me because I feel like 398 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:50,720 Speaker 1: it is exactly the kind of climate that makes social 399 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 1: media and technology more generally like a hostile space for women. 400 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:57,359 Speaker 1: And I think you know, in twenty twenty five, most 401 00:21:57,359 --> 00:21:59,879 Speaker 1: of us are using social media like it is just 402 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:02,560 Speaker 1: part of showing up in civic and public life is 403 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:07,239 Speaker 1: being online. And if anybody can use AI to undress you, 404 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:10,080 Speaker 1: to sexualize you when you do show up online, we 405 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:12,760 Speaker 1: simply do not have an online landscape that would that 406 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:16,280 Speaker 1: allows for women to like fully and safely participate in 407 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:18,679 Speaker 1: civic life. And so I mean I am not showing 408 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 1: up on x or Twitter as a platform anymore, but 409 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 1: if I were, and if other women are, I think that, 410 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:26,360 Speaker 1: like I can see why that would drive women off 411 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:28,679 Speaker 1: of these platforms. And so these people who say so 412 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:30,879 Speaker 1: much they care about free speech, they care about like 413 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:34,159 Speaker 1: you know, having a marketplace of ideas, this is anti 414 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:36,280 Speaker 1: free speech. Women are going to not show up to 415 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:40,280 Speaker 1: these platforms and not you know, make their voices heard 416 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:43,280 Speaker 1: on them if the threat is there them being like 417 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 1: sexualized and undressed and violated in this way. So it's 418 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:48,639 Speaker 1: not only like a gross violation, it's also in my book, 419 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:50,840 Speaker 1: like very anti democratic. 420 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 3: Absolutely well in the the unsettling layer of it as well, 421 00:22:56,160 --> 00:23:00,560 Speaker 3: that yes, Grock is a problem, but it it's also 422 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:04,959 Speaker 3: such a problem that there are enough people wanting to 423 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:08,840 Speaker 3: train Grock to essentially like assault people. 424 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:11,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I guess like that's my point, Like that's 425 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 1: like why I don't like to answer fromre size technology 426 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:16,800 Speaker 1: like this is because like it's learning from us, so 427 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:19,600 Speaker 1: like it's built by people, it's trained by people that 428 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:24,320 Speaker 1: learns from people all of the biases and gross things 429 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:28,520 Speaker 1: that we know that people have, Like it is, it 430 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:31,119 Speaker 1: is just reflecting that back and like turbo charging it. 431 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:35,199 Speaker 1: And so yeah, it really does reflect the fact that, 432 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:39,359 Speaker 1: like this technology is being trained on the worst human 433 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:42,560 Speaker 1: impulses and that is a problem. And not only is 434 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 1: that like a tech problem, it's like a like an 435 00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:47,000 Speaker 1: US problem, like a people problem. If we can't figure 436 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:50,440 Speaker 1: out how to, you know, how to have a more 437 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:55,080 Speaker 1: equitable landscape, how to not use technology to just reinforce 438 00:23:55,520 --> 00:24:00,440 Speaker 1: and reinforce these like patriarchal attitudes about women and violate women, 439 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:02,280 Speaker 1: we're never gonna get anywhere. So it's like it's like 440 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:05,320 Speaker 1: both a tech problem and a like human problem. I 441 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:07,800 Speaker 1: guess we gotta buy Grock a copy of your book. 442 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:12,920 Speaker 3: Come on, Grock, get a ladylike Rocks. 443 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:14,640 Speaker 4: It's a gender neutral term. 444 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:18,639 Speaker 1: Yeah. 445 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:31,520 Speaker 2: More after a quick break, let's get right back into it, 446 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 2: all right. 447 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:37,720 Speaker 1: So, speaking of things that are infuriating me and also 448 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:39,719 Speaker 1: sort of inspiring me, I guess I need to talk 449 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:42,480 Speaker 1: about a landro Nelson. Landre Nelson for folks who don't 450 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 1: know she is incredible. I have been lucky enough to 451 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 1: like hear her speak, and she is really phenomenal. She 452 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:51,280 Speaker 1: has a very long and storied career in public service. 453 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 1: She was the first black person and the first ever 454 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:56,280 Speaker 1: woman of color to lead the White House Office on 455 00:24:56,359 --> 00:25:00,480 Speaker 1: Science and Technology Policy. She's a very accomplished scientist professor. 456 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 1: In twenty twenty three, she was nominated by the Biden 457 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:06,160 Speaker 1: administration to the UN High Level Advisory Body on AI. 458 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:09,520 Speaker 1: Her list of contributions to public interest and science like 459 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:10,879 Speaker 1: could go on and on and on. I could talk 460 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 1: about her all day. She's phenomenal. Shout out to her. Well. 461 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 1: This week she resigned from the National Science Board and 462 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 1: the Library of Congress Scholars Council, citing creeping authoritarianism. And 463 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 1: I want to talk a bit about what she said 464 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:29,080 Speaker 1: drove her to these resignations. One because I think coming 465 00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:31,600 Speaker 1: out publicly the way that she has is really brave 466 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:34,040 Speaker 1: and it comes with tons of risk, Especially right now. 467 00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:38,080 Speaker 1: I haven't really seen this story talked about in the 468 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 1: way that I wish it was being talked about, because 469 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:42,880 Speaker 1: I think absolutely everybody should read what she has to say. 470 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:45,320 Speaker 1: I'll put the link to the full piece in the 471 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:48,159 Speaker 1: show notes. But I also think it highlights what we 472 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:51,919 Speaker 1: all lose when voices like Nelson's are pushed out of 473 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:55,880 Speaker 1: public service, Like we all benefit from having voices who 474 00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:59,760 Speaker 1: are critical, who ask tough questions. When those voices are 475 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:03,240 Speaker 1: in in the conversation, all of our lives can improve. 476 00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:06,920 Speaker 1: And when those voices are pushed out and silenced, we 477 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:10,960 Speaker 1: all lose out. And so yeah, it's it's I think 478 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:15,360 Speaker 1: that her her coming out publicly with what she saw 479 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:18,440 Speaker 1: and why she's leaving is really important. So have you 480 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:20,480 Speaker 1: did you do you know anything about her work or 481 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:22,160 Speaker 1: had you heard this story? 482 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:26,920 Speaker 3: I was not familiar with her, but it's it's tragic 483 00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:31,000 Speaker 3: to lose someone like that who also, I mean just 484 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:35,720 Speaker 3: the amount of knowledge, like institutional knowledge that she possesses, 485 00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:37,920 Speaker 3: Like when that one person just walks out the door 486 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 3: like that, it's I mean, yeah, it's it's gross how 487 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:47,520 Speaker 3: many people are being forced to, yeah, just walk away. 488 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:49,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean I live in Washington, d C. 489 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:53,040 Speaker 1: Where a lot of federal workers live, not all, but 490 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:55,199 Speaker 1: a lot of federal workers live in this area, and 491 00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:58,320 Speaker 1: I have been covering it for another podcast I work 492 00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:03,360 Speaker 1: on called City CASSIDC. It's just we all lose out, 493 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:08,800 Speaker 1: like it really is. We all lose out for no reason. 494 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:11,480 Speaker 1: It's not saving any money. We could we could do 495 00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:13,720 Speaker 1: a whole episode on this. But like for all of 496 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:16,800 Speaker 1: the like puffery that Elon Musk talked about, like fraud 497 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:20,560 Speaker 1: and waste, we have we the deficit is up. And 498 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:23,200 Speaker 1: when you fire somebody illegally and you have to pay 499 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:25,080 Speaker 1: them severance that you didn't think you're gonna have to pay, 500 00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 1: or you have to like fund the lawsuit or something, 501 00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:29,000 Speaker 1: we have not saved any money, right, So like it's 502 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:31,080 Speaker 1: like we're shooting ourselves in the foot for no reason. 503 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:35,040 Speaker 1: So first, what is the National Science Board the entity 504 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:37,000 Speaker 1: that she was one of the entities she was resigning from. 505 00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:39,639 Speaker 1: So the National Science Board of the United States establishes 506 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:42,280 Speaker 1: policies of the National Science Foundation, which is one of 507 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:45,239 Speaker 1: the biggest and most important funders of scientific research in 508 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:48,240 Speaker 1: our country. The National Science Board also serves as an 509 00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:51,280 Speaker 1: independent policy advisory body to the President and Congress on 510 00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:54,840 Speaker 1: science and engineering, research and education issues. Basically, it supports 511 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:58,040 Speaker 1: all non medical science research in the United States, so 512 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,080 Speaker 1: kind of like an i age, the Nationalist Suit of Health, 513 00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:04,600 Speaker 1: that is the health and medical counterpart of the National 514 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:10,320 Speaker 1: Science Foundation, And basically like it is why I am 515 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,640 Speaker 1: talking to you about technology and the Internet on a podcast, 516 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:16,280 Speaker 1: because if it was not for this board, we would 517 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:19,920 Speaker 1: not have the Internet like it is important. So her 518 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:23,639 Speaker 1: peace in time explaining her decision to resign isn't just 519 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:26,359 Speaker 1: maddening because this like accomplished person is being pushed out 520 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:30,240 Speaker 1: of government, although yes, that it's also maddening because it 521 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 1: shows how much the Trump administration is attacking and gutting 522 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:38,080 Speaker 1: these organizations that technology and scientific advancement really rely on. 523 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 1: I was watching this just like a side frustration. I 524 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:44,760 Speaker 1: was watching this podcast with Pete Boudajeg and he was 525 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 1: He's been on these like podcast bro type podcasts recently, 526 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:53,720 Speaker 1: and there was one where he was basically explaining to 527 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:57,280 Speaker 1: the World's Stupidest podcast Bro that the Internet would not 528 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:00,880 Speaker 1: exist and like the iPhone, would not exist without the 529 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:04,120 Speaker 1: government because it was essentially a project of the government 530 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:07,920 Speaker 1: in collaboration with researchers and universities. Why we have the 531 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:11,080 Speaker 1: Internet at all? And it really him having to explain 532 00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:16,440 Speaker 1: that really revealed that, like some people just don't know, 533 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:19,240 Speaker 1: or don't think about, or have not been taught about 534 00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:23,640 Speaker 1: where research and scientific and technological advances come from. In 535 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:26,560 Speaker 1: this country, and that if we didn't have research, but 536 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 1: like funded research, we didn't have universities, and we didn't 537 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,800 Speaker 1: have government, these things that we take for granted, like 538 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:35,520 Speaker 1: the Internet, would not exist, we would not be like, 539 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:37,640 Speaker 1: we would be a completely different country, and I would 540 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,720 Speaker 1: argue a worse country if not for these things. For 541 00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:44,440 Speaker 1: so long, the US has led the world in scientific 542 00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:47,440 Speaker 1: discovery and technological innovation and like improved our lives and 543 00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:50,760 Speaker 1: drove economic prosperity. And it is just depressing as hell 544 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:54,280 Speaker 1: to watch Trump throw all of this away because it's 545 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:56,800 Speaker 1: woke or whatever, and then watch people who do not 546 00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:59,200 Speaker 1: really get it cheer it on and not realize that 547 00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:01,239 Speaker 1: you were cheering on something that is going to make 548 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:04,960 Speaker 1: all of our lives so much worse. So I think 549 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,400 Speaker 1: everybody should read her piece in Time explaining her decision 550 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 1: to resign, But I want to share a couple of 551 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:12,520 Speaker 1: pieces of it because it really, I thought was so 552 00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 1: perfectly put. 553 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:13,360 Speaker 3: So. 554 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:16,240 Speaker 1: She says that initially she planned to stay in government, 555 00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 1: but at a certain point that kind of just became impossible. 556 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:23,000 Speaker 1: She writes, perseverance has its limits. The erosion of these 557 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:26,320 Speaker 1: institutions integrity, and the growing realization that it is impossible 558 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:28,800 Speaker 1: to fulfill their missions in good faith has made the 559 00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:31,719 Speaker 1: cost of continuing untenable. That is why I m at 560 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:33,960 Speaker 1: step away from my work with two federal institutions that 561 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:36,600 Speaker 1: I care deeply about. In both of these roles, over 562 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:38,720 Speaker 1: the past few years, I've been asked to serve on 563 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:41,200 Speaker 1: diverse bodies that offer guidance about how the executive and 564 00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:44,480 Speaker 1: legislative branches can be stewards of knowledge and create structure 565 00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:47,680 Speaker 1: to enable discovery, innovation, and ingenuity. In the case of 566 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:51,200 Speaker 1: the National Science Board, this ideal has dissolved so gradually 567 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:54,920 Speaker 1: yet so completely that I barely noticed its absence until 568 00:30:55,000 --> 00:31:01,320 Speaker 1: confronted with the tallow simulacrum. And yeah, that really, I 569 00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:05,480 Speaker 1: feel like that really just packs a punch of how 570 00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:09,240 Speaker 1: difficult it would be. Because when all of this hearted happening, 571 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:11,560 Speaker 1: I was someone who was like, federal worker should just 572 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 1: stick it out. We need their voices, like make them 573 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:16,920 Speaker 1: fire you, blah blah blah. And I still sort of 574 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:19,640 Speaker 1: feel that way. But I had never really thought about 575 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:22,760 Speaker 1: what it would be like to continue to have your 576 00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:27,640 Speaker 1: name as the overseer of a board that its mission 577 00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:30,360 Speaker 1: had been so hollowed that it was just like fake, 578 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:31,920 Speaker 1: Like how difficult that would be? 579 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:38,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, once your job becomes like enacting the kinds 580 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:42,920 Speaker 3: of draconian policies as well, Like yeah, it's. 581 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:46,880 Speaker 4: It's enraging, it is. 582 00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:50,320 Speaker 1: And she calls out, like just the general attacks on 583 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:54,200 Speaker 1: knowledge that this an administration is pushed forth writing this 584 00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:57,080 Speaker 1: hollowing out is not just about governance and the abstract. 585 00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:00,640 Speaker 1: It has material consequences for which research questions get asked, 586 00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:03,880 Speaker 1: which data sets get produced, which knowledge gets produced, and 587 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:07,719 Speaker 1: which perspectives shape our understanding of pressing societal challenges. It 588 00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:11,360 Speaker 1: has consequences for the integrity of knowledge itself. And I 589 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:14,480 Speaker 1: think that is so true that you know again, I 590 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:16,560 Speaker 1: feel like it's easy to take for granted that they 591 00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:19,280 Speaker 1: are smart people asking the questions that are going to 592 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:22,200 Speaker 1: lead to scientific advancements, right, Like there are people who 593 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:26,920 Speaker 1: are solving problems and challenges that somebody like me might 594 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:29,080 Speaker 1: not that have not even been revealed with somebody like me, 595 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:31,360 Speaker 1: and thank god, somebody is working on it. Like what 596 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:34,440 Speaker 1: do we get when those people are attacked and pushed 597 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:36,600 Speaker 1: out of the important work they've been doing. 598 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:40,440 Speaker 3: Right, and all of their research funding drained? Like it 599 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:44,040 Speaker 3: also seems like part of this an extension of the 600 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:50,400 Speaker 3: whole like Trumpian mentality and like conservative mentality of running 601 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:54,280 Speaker 3: the business, running the government like it's a business, like 602 00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:55,160 Speaker 3: it's a corporation. 603 00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:58,720 Speaker 4: So if something is not immediately turning you a profit, 604 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:03,000 Speaker 4: then it's out door. Like it's just like no thing 605 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 4: so doesn't. 606 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:07,000 Speaker 1: Work that way, And that's just I mean, like that's 607 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:10,200 Speaker 1: just not how we get innovation. Like so many innovations 608 00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:12,800 Speaker 1: take a long time to reveal themselves or like take 609 00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:16,160 Speaker 1: some collaboration or like yeah, they're slow burns, and like 610 00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:19,080 Speaker 1: thank god somebody stuck it out to see them to 611 00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:21,280 Speaker 1: the end, because it's like, Ben, there was this great 612 00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:23,840 Speaker 1: thing or this great development that helped everybody. Like it's 613 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:27,080 Speaker 1: just it's it's just not how it's just not how 614 00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:29,680 Speaker 1: any of this works. So, in addition to resigning from 615 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,560 Speaker 1: a position at the National Science Board, she's also resigning 616 00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:35,520 Speaker 1: from her position on the Library of Congress Scholars Council, 617 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:38,360 Speaker 1: which is like a body of distinguished individuals convened by 618 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:41,240 Speaker 1: the Librarian of Congress to advise on matters related to 619 00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:43,840 Speaker 1: scholarship at the Library of Congress. So y'all might have 620 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:47,840 Speaker 1: seen recently that the Librarian of Congress doctor Carla Hayden 621 00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:52,719 Speaker 1: was recently fired. Uh really for no good reason. 622 00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:54,840 Speaker 4: That's okay. 623 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:58,760 Speaker 3: I had missed that news, and I I mean, I'm 624 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:01,520 Speaker 3: not shocked because she is a black woman, and it 625 00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:04,720 Speaker 3: seems like three black women in the federal government, you know, 626 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:06,040 Speaker 3: has a target on her back. 627 00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:10,720 Speaker 1: So exactly that Nelson points out that in the email 628 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:13,960 Speaker 1: dismissing her, she was so this is someone with a PhD. Right, 629 00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:17,280 Speaker 1: she's doctor Carla Hayden. The email dismissing her was addressed 630 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:20,799 Speaker 1: to Carla just her first name, not doctor Hayden, which 631 00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:25,200 Speaker 1: is like insult to injury. And importantly, it sounds like 632 00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:28,480 Speaker 1: Trump just like fired this woman on his own. He 633 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:31,480 Speaker 1: was not acting on behalf of the lawmakers who oversee 634 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:34,200 Speaker 1: the Library of Congress, and the White House Press Secretary 635 00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:37,080 Speaker 1: said that she was being fired quote for things she 636 00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:39,360 Speaker 1: had done at the Library of Congress in the pursuit 637 00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:42,080 Speaker 1: of DEI and putting in appropriate books in the library 638 00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:44,200 Speaker 1: for children. So I want to play this a quick 639 00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:46,920 Speaker 1: bit of audio of that press conference. 640 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:48,120 Speaker 2: Question. 641 00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:50,759 Speaker 1: Now, the president fired the Library of Congress, why do. 642 00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:51,800 Speaker 6: You choose to do that? 643 00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:53,640 Speaker 7: We felt she did not fit the means of the 644 00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:56,719 Speaker 7: American people. There were quite concerning things that she had 645 00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:58,759 Speaker 7: done at the Library of Congress in the pursuit of 646 00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:03,240 Speaker 7: DEI and putting inappropriate books in the library for children, 647 00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:05,640 Speaker 7: and we don't believe that she was serving the interests 648 00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:08,000 Speaker 7: of the American tax Pairwell, so she has been removed 649 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:09,880 Speaker 7: from her position in the president as well within his 650 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:10,640 Speaker 7: rights to do that. 651 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:13,839 Speaker 4: Has she visited the Library of Congress, That's what. 652 00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:17,160 Speaker 1: I'm saying, Like, think about this for one second. Does 653 00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:19,840 Speaker 1: she think that the Library of Congress lends out books 654 00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:24,359 Speaker 1: to kids? Like, like genuinely does she think that it 655 00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:27,239 Speaker 1: doesn't lend out books to anyone? Like its job is 656 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:29,920 Speaker 1: to house all the published books in the United States. 657 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:32,160 Speaker 1: So like, first of all, the way that I could 658 00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:35,200 Speaker 1: never obviously it's never happened, But like I just cannot 659 00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:38,799 Speaker 1: imagine sitting in a press conference and hearing somebody say 660 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:40,960 Speaker 1: that and not being like a bullshit or even if 661 00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:43,439 Speaker 1: it's asking a follow up, but I guess, like who 662 00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:45,279 Speaker 1: would be asking the follow up at this point? Like 663 00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:48,480 Speaker 1: one American News They're like, sure, yeah, that's right, she 664 00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:50,680 Speaker 1: was lending out books to kids that were inappropriate. It's 665 00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:55,279 Speaker 1: like sure, And I think you're exactly right. That like, 666 00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:58,319 Speaker 1: and Nelson clock says in her piece, she says that, 667 00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:02,120 Speaker 1: like the reason why they pushed her out is because 668 00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:04,600 Speaker 1: they are just like pushing out black women in public 669 00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:07,960 Speaker 1: service under whatever pretense they invent. And that's that, Like 670 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:09,680 Speaker 1: they don't even have to have a real answer that 671 00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:13,080 Speaker 1: makes any sense in reality whatsoever. Nelson writes, the ouster 672 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:15,480 Speaker 1: of Hayden is part of a broader pattern of political 673 00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:18,960 Speaker 1: targeting of women and black public servants across the federal government. 674 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:21,200 Speaker 1: So exactly what you said, right. 675 00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:26,360 Speaker 3: And I wonder too if part of uh Trump taking 676 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:30,760 Speaker 3: it like firing her himself, and the way it sounds 677 00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:33,520 Speaker 3: like it went down, it seems like there's also like 678 00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:37,960 Speaker 3: an especial like a real distaste for anyone who was 679 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:41,920 Speaker 3: the first in their position, to which I believe Carla 680 00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:44,239 Speaker 3: Harden was she sorry. 681 00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:48,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, I completely agree, And it's like it just really 682 00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:52,360 Speaker 1: crystallizes the way that they are being so exuplicit about 683 00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:57,319 Speaker 1: rolling back any progress, right, Like, And I guess that's 684 00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:02,200 Speaker 1: the thing is like it does feel I really work 685 00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:06,840 Speaker 1: hard to not feel defeated in this moment when things 686 00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:10,200 Speaker 1: feel so bad, but like that's what it feels like. 687 00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:12,040 Speaker 1: It feels like what they're trying to do is be 688 00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:16,759 Speaker 1: like any gains that women or you know, historically marginalized 689 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:19,040 Speaker 1: folks have made, we want to make it. We want 690 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:21,839 Speaker 1: to like spell it out that those are being erased. 691 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:24,880 Speaker 1: And I guess not that I'm saying it out loud. 692 00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:28,480 Speaker 1: They can take it off the website, they can fire people. 693 00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:30,920 Speaker 1: I wish they wouldn't, but they can. But we know, 694 00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:33,600 Speaker 1: right like like they can't take away the gains that 695 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:35,680 Speaker 1: we have made. They can try, they can pull their 696 00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:38,160 Speaker 1: little bullshit in their little scams, but like they can't 697 00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:41,319 Speaker 1: take being the first black anything away from anybody, even 698 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:42,920 Speaker 1: if they do delete it from the website. 699 00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:46,200 Speaker 3: And I mean, unless I'm mis understanding completely how the 700 00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:51,959 Speaker 3: Library of Congress works, which is possible even if let's say, uh. 701 00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:56,319 Speaker 6: The library former Librarian of Congress did put out some 702 00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:59,640 Speaker 6: books for the children. Even if that did happen, I 703 00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:02,319 Speaker 6: guess that's what those books are still cataloged at the 704 00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:06,080 Speaker 6: Library of Congress. Like those books people that are going anywhere, Yeah. 705 00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:08,600 Speaker 1: Exactly, Like the point of the Library of Congress is 706 00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:10,560 Speaker 1: that it holds all the books. So like, if this 707 00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:12,520 Speaker 1: book was published, you don't have to like it, but 708 00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:15,160 Speaker 1: you can't take it out of the library of Congress, Like, 709 00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:18,000 Speaker 1: that's not how it works. So I feel like Nelson 710 00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:21,520 Speaker 1: really is speaking so powerfully to this moment that we're in, 711 00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:25,120 Speaker 1: she writes. To watch these changes unfold without naming them 712 00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:27,360 Speaker 1: for what they are is to participate in a collective 713 00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:31,600 Speaker 1: amnesia about how knowledge infrastructures shape power relations, like the 714 00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:35,480 Speaker 1: shopkeeper in an authoritarian society described by Vachlovehovel in his 715 00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:38,839 Speaker 1: essay The Power of Powerlessness, who participates in its own 716 00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:42,200 Speaker 1: oppression through small, daily acts of complicity, placing a party 717 00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:44,560 Speaker 1: slogan in his window, not out of conviction, but out 718 00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:47,319 Speaker 1: of habit. To remain on advisory boards that have been 719 00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:50,719 Speaker 1: stripped of meaningful advisory function is to become that shopkeeper, 720 00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:55,319 Speaker 1: to lend legitimacy to a process that has been systematically delegitimized. 721 00:38:55,840 --> 00:39:00,480 Speaker 1: And yeah, I mean I really a pre She ate 722 00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:03,600 Speaker 1: that she is not just leaving quietly, that she is 723 00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:07,759 Speaker 1: leaving with such a resounding, clear warning to all of 724 00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:13,000 Speaker 1: us about what happens when you do become complicit, not 725 00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:15,200 Speaker 1: out of convictions, out of habit, when you do say 726 00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:18,359 Speaker 1: like oh yeah, like they deleted all this stuff from 727 00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:20,319 Speaker 1: the website. I guess it never happened, like when you 728 00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:24,480 Speaker 1: allow for this to become legitimized, And I just it 729 00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:27,279 Speaker 1: would have been so easy and probably like advisable in 730 00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:30,200 Speaker 1: some ways for her to leave quietly. But I'm so 731 00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:33,480 Speaker 1: glad she chose to leave loudly. And I think everybody 732 00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:36,760 Speaker 1: should read her parting words. It is like a warning 733 00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:37,120 Speaker 1: to us. 734 00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:37,359 Speaker 4: All. 735 00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:42,920 Speaker 1: Okay, so real quick last story. I mean it's I 736 00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:46,880 Speaker 1: can do it very quickly actually, because she remember back 737 00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:51,719 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty three when HBO became just Max and 738 00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:52,560 Speaker 1: everybody hated it. 739 00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:57,759 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, how could I Where were you? 740 00:39:57,760 --> 00:39:58,200 Speaker 4: You know it. 741 00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:03,040 Speaker 1: Is you're joking, but yo, I remember being like why 742 00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:06,120 Speaker 1: would they take away the HBO? Like I was so 743 00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:09,520 Speaker 1: like angry because like HBO was just like what do 744 00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:12,919 Speaker 1: you think of HBO? You think of like Soprano, Sex 745 00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:16,200 Speaker 1: and the City, like these like iconic shows, and it's like, yeah, 746 00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:18,560 Speaker 1: let's just be Max, Like what is that? 747 00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:19,080 Speaker 4: Yeah? 748 00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:22,319 Speaker 3: I was unnecessarily stubborn about it in the way of 749 00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:23,320 Speaker 3: like I'm. 750 00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:26,160 Speaker 4: Not gonna call it x huh. It's very much like 751 00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:28,080 Speaker 4: it's not Max out. 752 00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:31,040 Speaker 1: Well, don't worry because they're going back to HBO. Max 753 00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:33,600 Speaker 1: now that's it. That's the story. They've they've they've they're 754 00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:35,920 Speaker 1: back to it. They have they've heard our complaints. 755 00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:39,799 Speaker 3: I would love to see. I want to see a 756 00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:44,000 Speaker 3: spreadsheet of a breakdown of how much that circular decision costs. 757 00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:46,759 Speaker 1: I'm so I had the same I had the same question, like, 758 00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:50,000 Speaker 1: did how much money did an executive get paid to 759 00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:52,799 Speaker 1: make the initial choice? How much money went to change 760 00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:55,360 Speaker 1: the branding? I have so many questions. 761 00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:57,799 Speaker 3: Oh my god, and you know that there were so 762 00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:02,200 Speaker 3: many like brainstorm sessions and wow, that's incredible. 763 00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:05,880 Speaker 1: Let me ask you this. When you hear the like 764 00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:10,520 Speaker 1: HBO like static, like, what's the what is the like 765 00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:12,839 Speaker 1: theme song? This is a question I ask everybody. What 766 00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:14,440 Speaker 1: is the like theme song that you're like, Oh, when 767 00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:17,160 Speaker 1: you hear that HBO intro noise, you know it's gonna 768 00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:17,680 Speaker 1: be this. 769 00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:20,080 Speaker 4: Show either Sex and the City or Soprano. 770 00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:25,120 Speaker 1: That's okay. I think those are the only two acceptable answers. Producer, Mikes, 771 00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:27,120 Speaker 1: you want to chime in and tell us what it 772 00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:28,520 Speaker 1: is if I make fun of you all the time. 773 00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:30,520 Speaker 5: There's a period when I was watching a lot of 774 00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:35,080 Speaker 5: True Blood and I was just powering through one episode 775 00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:39,319 Speaker 5: after another, and yeah, that was really my my I 776 00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:42,520 Speaker 5: didn't grow up with HBO, you know. I came from 777 00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:46,680 Speaker 5: a family where we just had three channels. So this 778 00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:50,440 Speaker 5: was the period when I had access to like an 779 00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:53,880 Speaker 5: unlimited set of all of the shows. And it was 780 00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:58,840 Speaker 5: just like static Sound Show, Static Sound Show. It like 781 00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:02,680 Speaker 5: trained my brain. So yeah, I'm not gonna apologize. 782 00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:08,520 Speaker 4: What a weird answer, very unexpected I have. And now 783 00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:09,800 Speaker 4: you got me wanting to ask. 784 00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:12,799 Speaker 3: I have one friend who is a true Bloodhead, and 785 00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:15,520 Speaker 3: now I want to ask her the same question. 786 00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:17,640 Speaker 1: Did you just make that? Did you make up? Is 787 00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:19,680 Speaker 1: true bloodhead what they call themselves? Is that? 788 00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:25,600 Speaker 4: Like, No, I don't know, Mike, Mike would know. 789 00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:29,480 Speaker 5: As a member of the True Blood fan community, that's 790 00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:32,600 Speaker 5: not a term that we used to identify ourselves. 791 00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:34,800 Speaker 4: It's not it's not canon. 792 00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:40,600 Speaker 1: Well, Kristen, this has been incredible. Where can folks hear 793 00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:44,600 Speaker 1: the podcast? The multiple podcasts? Where can folks keep up 794 00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:46,520 Speaker 1: with you? How can they get the book? Tell us 795 00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:47,280 Speaker 1: all the things? 796 00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:50,319 Speaker 4: Well, thank you so much for having me again. This 797 00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:51,080 Speaker 4: was so fun. 798 00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:56,719 Speaker 3: Folks can listen to unladylike podcasts and the Gender War 799 00:42:56,800 --> 00:43:00,640 Speaker 3: Games mini series all four episodes of that are out now. 800 00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:03,799 Speaker 4: Just search unladylike or if you. 801 00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:08,080 Speaker 8: Want something a little weirder, just like for a conspiracy 802 00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:12,719 Speaker 8: She wrote, I just started a new mini series on 803 00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:14,520 Speaker 8: that today. 804 00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:16,759 Speaker 1: Actually, what is the miniseries exploring? 805 00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:20,360 Speaker 4: Well, the Earth is such a dumpster fire. 806 00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:23,920 Speaker 3: Was just taking a quick break to aliens and Ufoh 807 00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:24,239 Speaker 3: my god. 808 00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:28,080 Speaker 1: So it's that so like I am also in like 809 00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:32,120 Speaker 1: the conspiracy world, but so often they're like Quanon. It's 810 00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:34,640 Speaker 1: like nice to take a little break with, like, oh Aliens. 811 00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:38,080 Speaker 3: Yes, I mean all roads will eventually lead back to 812 00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:40,239 Speaker 3: QAnon and like you know, I mean they all route 813 00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:43,839 Speaker 3: the same place. But and I didn't even think about beforehand, 814 00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:47,680 Speaker 3: like how much like UFOs and aliens are just it's 815 00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:50,200 Speaker 3: all like anti government stuff that takes me right back 816 00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:51,560 Speaker 3: down to Earth, which is where I. 817 00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:55,560 Speaker 4: Wanted to leave. But yeah, it's been it's been. 818 00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:59,800 Speaker 3: A fun kind of mental break, but it's fascinating and 819 00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:04,120 Speaker 3: really like spent a ton of time thinking about UFOs 820 00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:05,680 Speaker 3: and now I think I've spent too much time. 821 00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:08,440 Speaker 4: So come listen to conspiracy, she wrote. 822 00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:12,960 Speaker 1: The truth is out there and you're gonna find it. Kristin, 823 00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:14,719 Speaker 1: thank you so much for being here. Thank you for 824 00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:17,320 Speaker 1: being our inaugural guest co host on There Are No 825 00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:20,600 Speaker 1: Girls on the Internet. Y'all can follow me on Instagram 826 00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:25,520 Speaker 1: at bridget Marian DC, on TikTok at bridget Marian DC 827 00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:29,440 Speaker 1: on YouTube There are No Girls on the Internet. I 828 00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:31,839 Speaker 1: know that sounds very awkward. I just started doing more 829 00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:35,080 Speaker 1: social media, so don't make fun of me. I'm being 830 00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:38,120 Speaker 1: perceived there and it's fine. Thanks so much for listening. 831 00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:45,759 Speaker 1: I will see you soon. If you're looking for ways 832 00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:48,000 Speaker 1: to support the show, check out our merch store at 833 00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:51,719 Speaker 1: tenggodi dot com slash store. Got a story about an 834 00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:53,680 Speaker 1: interesting thing in tech? I just want to say hi. 835 00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:56,280 Speaker 1: You can reach us at Hello at tegodi dot com. 836 00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:58,840 Speaker 1: You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tengody 837 00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:01,399 Speaker 1: dot com. No Girls on the Internet was created by 838 00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:04,400 Speaker 1: me Bridget Tod. It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed 839 00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:08,880 Speaker 1: Creative edited by Joey Pat Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer. 840 00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:12,440 Speaker 1: Terry Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Almado 841 00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:15,520 Speaker 1: is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If 842 00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:17,239 Speaker 1: you want to help us grow, rate and review us 843 00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:20,880 Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts, For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out 844 00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:25,360 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.