WEBVTT - Getting the Real Russia Report (feat. Kyle Kinane) 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:03.600 My expertise is getting secrets from the government, and damn it, 0:00:03.760 --> 0:00:06.080 I was going to get those Muller records first. 0:00:06.400 --> 0:00:10.280 That's investigative journalist Jason Leopold. These days, he's reporting for 0:00:10.280 --> 0:00:14.680 Bloomberg News. But on Saturday, November two, twenty nineteen, Jason 0:00:14.720 --> 0:00:17.520 and his team were waiting impatiently for documents from Robert 0:00:17.560 --> 0:00:21.759 Muller's investigation into Russian interference in the twenty sixteen election. 0:00:22.200 --> 0:00:25.079 It was the first tranne from thousands of pages of 0:00:25.160 --> 0:00:28.040 interview summaries that the FBI had tried to keep secret, 0:00:28.280 --> 0:00:30.120 but we managed to pry them loose. 0:00:30.600 --> 0:00:33.680 Jason was certain there'd be important information in these pages 0:00:34.040 --> 0:00:36.800 and he couldn't wait to break whatever news they contained. 0:00:37.360 --> 0:00:40.919 You see, CNN was also getting these records. The issue 0:00:41.159 --> 0:00:44.200 was that Jason's copy was supposed to be mailed to Chicago. 0:00:44.800 --> 0:00:49.400 Meanwhile, CNN is in Washington, DC and the records office 0:00:49.400 --> 0:00:52.440 is in Virginia, so they're going to get it first. 0:00:52.760 --> 0:00:55.560 And I was like, there's no way I will accept this. 0:00:56.560 --> 0:00:59.360 So after some hounding, the government agreed to reroute the 0:00:59.360 --> 0:01:02.240 package in get it to Jason's team as quickly as possible, 0:01:03.480 --> 0:01:06.160 and then on this Saturday. In twenty nineteen, the race 0:01:06.200 --> 0:01:09.760 against time began when Jason's colleague in DC received a 0:01:09.800 --> 0:01:10.720 package with. 0:01:10.760 --> 0:01:15.240 A CD inside a CD like it was nineteen ninety nine, which, 0:01:15.280 --> 0:01:17.560 by the way, is how they still do it to 0:01:17.640 --> 0:01:18.119 this day. 0:01:18.440 --> 0:01:21.000 But with the records firmly in hand, the gravity of 0:01:21.040 --> 0:01:22.120 the situation set in. 0:01:22.319 --> 0:01:25.920 It was like, holy, we just got the first release 0:01:25.959 --> 0:01:32.120 from the Mauler investigation and immediately just went crazy and 0:01:32.160 --> 0:01:34.480 saying that like, all right, we have this. We don't 0:01:34.480 --> 0:01:36.600 know if CNN has it, but we have an advantage. 0:01:36.640 --> 0:01:39.040 It's Saturday. We're willing to work on a Saturday. 0:01:39.240 --> 0:01:41.399 It didn't take long for Jason and his colleagues to 0:01:41.440 --> 0:01:43.039 find something that public deserve to know. 0:01:44.000 --> 0:01:47.360 There was this conspiracy floating around as it related to 0:01:47.800 --> 0:01:51.680 the Democratic National Committee and the hack of their emails. 0:01:52.040 --> 0:01:55.200 President Trump asked President Zelensky to look into CrowdStrike. He 0:01:55.360 --> 0:01:58.000 was referring to a cybersecurity firm at the center of 0:01:58.040 --> 0:02:01.000 a conspiracy theory that suggests you the Crane not rush Up, 0:02:01.080 --> 0:02:03.840 was behind the DNC server hack in the twenty sixteen elections. 0:02:03.920 --> 0:02:06.600 And so these records revealed that it was actually Paul 0:02:06.640 --> 0:02:10.280 Maniford who was pushing and floating. 0:02:09.760 --> 0:02:13.320 That conspiracy theory. It was such a big deal at 0:02:13.360 --> 0:02:14.000 the time, you know. 0:02:14.080 --> 0:02:16.400 So we got the first story up just honestly, within 0:02:16.480 --> 0:02:18.359 an hour, and then just kept filling it out. 0:02:18.960 --> 0:02:22.880 Sure enough, Jason and the team beat CNN by ours man. 0:02:23.040 --> 0:02:27.520 Everyone there was just so excited, and that evening it 0:02:27.560 --> 0:02:30.680 was MSNBC that had a segment on it, joining us 0:02:30.680 --> 0:02:34.880 now senior investigative reporter BuzzFeed News, Jason Leopold. The documents 0:02:34.880 --> 0:02:38.440 provide a window into what was taking place behind the scenes, 0:02:38.440 --> 0:02:40.840 and it allows the public to see what the FBI 0:02:41.200 --> 0:02:42.720 memorialize firsthand. 0:02:42.880 --> 0:02:45.320 And boy was there a lot more, so much more. 0:02:45.200 --> 0:02:48.200 Than we can fit into this episode. But the thing is. 0:02:48.120 --> 0:02:51.679 We wouldn't know any of it, not one bit, if 0:02:51.720 --> 0:02:54.639 not for a little thing called the Freedom of Information 0:02:54.760 --> 0:02:56.240 Act the FOIA. 0:02:56.520 --> 0:02:58.960 It's something Jason and I know very well because we 0:02:59.040 --> 0:03:01.760 both thought to get these documents released, which is what 0:03:01.800 --> 0:03:02.920 we do together every. 0:03:02.840 --> 0:03:06.040 Day, and that's what we're here to talk about. Cue 0:03:06.080 --> 0:03:10.359 the music. I'm investigative journalist Jason Leopold. I spend most 0:03:10.400 --> 0:03:12.400 of my days getting documents from the government. 0:03:12.480 --> 0:03:14.600 I'm attorney Matt Topic, and I fight them in court 0:03:14.639 --> 0:03:16.240 to open their files when they don't want to. 0:03:17.160 --> 0:03:21.480 From Bloomberg and no smiling. This is Disclosure, a podcast 0:03:21.520 --> 0:03:25.120 about crying loose government secrets, the Freedom of Information Act, 0:03:25.280 --> 0:03:27.600 and the unexpected places that takes us. 0:03:31.639 --> 0:03:33.480 I mean, I'll just say it, Matt. 0:03:33.600 --> 0:03:38.760 I never thought that the Russia investigation and the Mueller 0:03:38.880 --> 0:03:42.320 investigation that looked into Trump would have such a long life. 0:03:42.720 --> 0:03:45.040 We're seeing that in the news all over again. 0:03:45.240 --> 0:03:49.360 Yeah, enormous news. The Trump Justice Department has now indicted 0:03:49.440 --> 0:03:54.200 former FBI director James Comy Jim Comy, charged with lying 0:03:54.240 --> 0:03:55.320 to Congress. 0:03:55.160 --> 0:03:58.480 Just days after the president publicly pressured Attorney General Pam 0:03:58.480 --> 0:04:02.760 Bondi to pursue case against his opponents, including Comy by name. 0:04:02.920 --> 0:04:05.520 The indictment is tied to Comy's twenty twenty testimony in 0:04:05.520 --> 0:04:08.160 front of Congress about Russian meddling in the twenty sixteen 0:04:08.280 --> 0:04:09.520 presidential election. 0:04:09.400 --> 0:04:12.600 In about what three days before the Statute of Limitations 0:04:12.680 --> 0:04:13.480 was going to explare. 0:04:13.680 --> 0:04:15.839 My family and I have known for years that there 0:04:15.840 --> 0:04:18.279 are costs to standing up to Donald Trump. But I 0:04:18.320 --> 0:04:21.520 have great confidence in the federal judicial system and I'm innocent, 0:04:21.720 --> 0:04:22.680 So let's have a trial. 0:04:22.960 --> 0:04:28.039 It's funny because anytime there's something that is related to 0:04:28.080 --> 0:04:30.920 a hot button issue, I immediately think back to did 0:04:30.920 --> 0:04:33.760 I file a Foyer request for anything related to that 0:04:33.920 --> 0:04:37.520 person or anything that they did. And when the news 0:04:37.600 --> 0:04:42.599 broke about Comy being indicted, I immediately thought back to a 0:04:42.680 --> 0:04:46.320 request that I filed in twenty eighteen. So back in 0:04:46.320 --> 0:04:50.040 twenty eighteen, Trump said during an interview with the Daily 0:04:50.080 --> 0:04:55.120 Caller that he had one hundred pictures of James Comy 0:04:55.360 --> 0:05:00.479 and Robert Muller hugging and kissing each other. When he 0:05:00.520 --> 0:05:05.159 said that that was a Foya opportunity. So I filled 0:05:05.200 --> 0:05:07.839 a Foy request with the FBI and said, I would 0:05:07.960 --> 0:05:11.719 like to have pictures of James Comy and Robert Muller hugging, 0:05:11.800 --> 0:05:12.520 kissing each other. 0:05:13.839 --> 0:05:15.760 Oh, that's just so good. 0:05:16.040 --> 0:05:20.039 And the FBI responded by saying they couldn't locate any 0:05:20.080 --> 0:05:22.880 photographs of Komy and Muller hugging and kissing. 0:05:23.920 --> 0:05:28.040 So I wrote a little story about it and tweeted 0:05:28.080 --> 0:05:30.040 that app Matt, can you read what I tweeted? 0:05:30.160 --> 0:05:33.320 I would be honored. Jacob Foya update, the FBI has 0:05:33.360 --> 0:05:35.919 not been able to locate any photographs of James Comy 0:05:35.920 --> 0:05:39.800 and Robert Muller hugging and kissing parentheses. Trump City had 0:05:39.800 --> 0:05:43.680 one hundred. My favorite part is you got a response 0:05:43.680 --> 0:05:46.960 from Komy that says, my wife was so relieved, crying 0:05:47.080 --> 0:05:48.000 laughing emoji. 0:05:48.960 --> 0:05:52.680 But Matt, as far as that recent indictment from this 0:05:52.760 --> 0:05:55.000 year is concerned, I'm not going to get into whether 0:05:55.080 --> 0:05:57.640 Kobe should or shouldn't have been charged, but the history 0:05:58.360 --> 0:06:03.400 leading up to it is worth discussing. One of the 0:06:03.440 --> 0:06:06.239 reasons why the effects of the Russian investigation are still 0:06:06.279 --> 0:06:09.600 being felt now is because at the time, it was 0:06:10.000 --> 0:06:15.600 an investigation that just dominated Trump's entire presidency, and Trump 0:06:16.000 --> 0:06:22.560 was outraged that he was under federal investigation, which is 0:06:22.600 --> 0:06:25.479 why it also became such a big bite for us 0:06:25.560 --> 0:06:28.760 to get all those records that might never have seen 0:06:28.800 --> 0:06:32.720 the light of day. So we're talking about something that 0:06:32.800 --> 0:06:36.880 dates back to twenty sixteen when Comy was still in 0:06:36.960 --> 0:06:40.320 charge of the FBI, right where the FBI was secretly 0:06:40.360 --> 0:06:45.400 at work on an investigation called Crossfire Hurricane, and that 0:06:45.520 --> 0:06:49.760 name was chosen as a homage to the Rolling Stones. 0:06:49.920 --> 0:06:52.440 What's the song I forgot anyway, We'll figure it out. 0:06:52.480 --> 0:06:53.839 It's jumping Jack Flesh. 0:06:53.920 --> 0:06:59.920 Jason Poser, Matt stop. Don't listen to him. I mean, 0:07:00.120 --> 0:07:02.080 he's right, but don't listen to him. 0:07:02.200 --> 0:07:03.120 Yeah, I am right. 0:07:03.600 --> 0:07:08.680 So the investigation was to essentially look into Trump's ties 0:07:08.720 --> 0:07:13.040 to Russia's campaigns ties to Russia. It was opened after 0:07:13.440 --> 0:07:17.440 if anyone recalls Trump saying Russia, if you're listening, I 0:07:17.520 --> 0:07:21.480 hope you're able to find the thirty thousand emails that 0:07:21.520 --> 0:07:26.040 are missing. The investigation also centered around the sources of 0:07:26.080 --> 0:07:29.920 information that we're coming into the FBI, including what we 0:07:30.040 --> 0:07:33.080 know now or very suspect sources that were essentially saying 0:07:33.200 --> 0:07:36.840 Trump has these ties to Russia, campaign has these ties 0:07:36.840 --> 0:07:39.520 to Russia. There's these communications that are taking place with 0:07:39.560 --> 0:07:43.840 people at the Kremlin. FBI opens up this investigation. Trump 0:07:43.880 --> 0:07:48.040 gets elected president, and immediately after he's elected, multiple congressional 0:07:48.040 --> 0:07:53.840 committees start these Russia related investigations. There was lots of 0:07:54.600 --> 0:07:59.160 leaks taking place that kind of forced the Attorney General 0:07:59.320 --> 0:08:04.840 at the time Justice Department, Jeff Sessions, to ultimately recuse himself. 0:08:05.080 --> 0:08:07.560 My staff recommended recuse them. 0:08:07.760 --> 0:08:11.400 They said that since I had involvement with the campaign, 0:08:11.760 --> 0:08:15.400 I should not be involved in any campaign investigation. 0:08:15.840 --> 0:08:18.320 And then Collby is fired from the FBI by Trump 0:08:18.320 --> 0:08:22.640 in May twenty seventeen, which Kobe ultimately claimed was related 0:08:22.680 --> 0:08:24.720 to his handling of the Russia investigation. 0:08:24.920 --> 0:08:27.200 I take the President's words. I know I was fired 0:08:27.280 --> 0:08:29.400 because of something about the way I was conducting the 0:08:29.440 --> 0:08:32.360 Russian investigation was in some way putting pressure on him, 0:08:32.360 --> 0:08:34.920 in some way irritating him, and he decided to fire 0:08:34.960 --> 0:08:35.720 me because of that. 0:08:36.080 --> 0:08:39.760 So, with Sessions recusing himself, this led to Robert Muller, 0:08:39.880 --> 0:08:43.640 former director of the FBI, being appointed as special counsel, 0:08:43.920 --> 0:08:47.000 you know, to make sure any investigation was independent. 0:08:47.160 --> 0:08:49.600 So really the person we have to thank is mister 0:08:49.679 --> 0:08:54.040 magoo aka Jeff Sessions. I keep handy for these occasions. 0:08:54.360 --> 0:08:57.040 The Wikipedia page for a list of nicknames used by 0:08:57.080 --> 0:08:58.800 Donald Trump, I had to look it up at The 0:08:58.880 --> 0:09:00.880 nickname for Jeff Session was mister McGoo. 0:09:01.880 --> 0:09:05.000 By the way, no nickname for Robber Maler on the list. 0:09:05.080 --> 0:09:09.480 Surprisingly, fast forward to March twenty nineteen, we heard that 0:09:09.520 --> 0:09:11.880 the Mala report was going to be submitted any day 0:09:11.920 --> 0:09:14.920 to Bill Barr, the Attorney General at the time, who 0:09:14.960 --> 0:09:18.640 told a Senate committee months earlier that the public deserved 0:09:18.640 --> 0:09:21.160 to know what the results of the investigation were. 0:09:21.600 --> 0:09:24.800 My goal will be to provide as much transparency as 0:09:24.800 --> 0:09:27.560 I can consistent with the law, and I will not 0:09:27.760 --> 0:09:33.040 let personal, political, or other improper interests influence my decision. 0:09:33.520 --> 0:09:35.400 I wanted to put that to the test, so I 0:09:35.440 --> 0:09:38.360 called Matt, my attorney, also known as the Foya King 0:09:38.440 --> 0:09:41.880 of Chicago, as his coffee mug says, Matt and his 0:09:41.960 --> 0:09:45.400 team have gotten the government to release documents hundreds of times, 0:09:45.760 --> 0:09:48.120 like when he forced the release of the Lakwan McDonald 0:09:48.240 --> 0:09:49.319 dashcam footage. 0:09:49.440 --> 0:09:52.480 Mayor Manuel and the prosecutor battle for months to keep 0:09:52.480 --> 0:09:55.599 the dash cam video under wraps. They lose when a 0:09:55.679 --> 0:09:57.240 judge orders the release of. 0:09:57.200 --> 0:09:59.520 The video, and he helps me pry things lose from 0:09:59.520 --> 0:10:01.640 the government, regardless of which party. 0:10:01.480 --> 0:10:02.000 Is in power. 0:10:04.280 --> 0:10:08.000 So the plan was that Jason would submit a FOYA 0:10:08.120 --> 0:10:11.760 or Freedom of Information Act request for the report. And 0:10:11.880 --> 0:10:13.880 let me just explain a little bit. You're going to 0:10:13.960 --> 0:10:17.120 hear an awful lot about FOYA. So, FOYA is a 0:10:17.160 --> 0:10:20.360 statute that says the public is entitled to government records since. 0:10:20.200 --> 0:10:23.240 It's a government of the people and for the people, right. 0:10:23.720 --> 0:10:26.160 And this law says that the work of all these 0:10:26.200 --> 0:10:30.080 government agencies, they're emails, notes, meeting man, it's all that stuff. 0:10:30.360 --> 0:10:32.720 It should be available to the public if a member 0:10:32.760 --> 0:10:34.319 of the public asks. 0:10:34.480 --> 0:10:37.880 Except in certain circumstances where there's something like personal privacy 0:10:38.000 --> 0:10:41.320 or an ongoing investigation, or national security or a long 0:10:41.360 --> 0:10:43.920 list of things where the government can keep information secret 0:10:43.960 --> 0:10:46.400 from you. But when they do that, you have a 0:10:46.480 --> 0:10:48.920 right to go to court to challenge that. And Jason 0:10:48.920 --> 0:10:51.520 and I have done that countless times in order to 0:10:51.520 --> 0:10:54.240 get access to all kinds of records. But the first 0:10:54.280 --> 0:10:57.120 step in using the FOYA is always the same. Make 0:10:57.160 --> 0:10:58.320 a request, right. 0:10:59.040 --> 0:11:01.600 Just request the docum from the government agency that would 0:11:01.600 --> 0:11:04.240 have them. I do these requests as a journalists all 0:11:04.280 --> 0:11:08.240 the time. It's my thing, but really anybody can do this, 0:11:08.480 --> 0:11:10.880 and the law says that the government has to respond 0:11:10.920 --> 0:11:11.880 within certain. 0:11:11.600 --> 0:11:14.640 Timelines in the request either has to be denied, or, 0:11:14.800 --> 0:11:17.600 as happens all the time, the agency just blows you 0:11:17.679 --> 0:11:21.160 off and doesn't actually comply with their legal obligations. So 0:11:21.400 --> 0:11:23.800 once that happens, then you can go to court to 0:11:24.120 --> 0:11:24.640 challenge it. 0:11:24.760 --> 0:11:26.839 Yeah, and I wanted to use this process to get 0:11:26.840 --> 0:11:29.160 my hands on the Muller Report as quickly as possible. 0:11:29.520 --> 0:11:32.559 So he makes the request and then like the next thing, 0:11:32.559 --> 0:11:36.640 that happens publicly is that Bill Barr sends his letter 0:11:36.880 --> 0:11:39.720 to Congress with the quote principal conclusions. 0:11:40.600 --> 0:11:43.160 So what's out in the public is not the Muller 0:11:43.240 --> 0:11:46.920 report itself. At this point, we couldn't see Mueller's take, 0:11:47.800 --> 0:11:49.080 just the summary from bar. 0:11:49.559 --> 0:11:52.360 They wanted to get their version of what the report 0:11:52.520 --> 0:11:55.280 said out in the world and have it get some 0:11:55.400 --> 0:12:00.200 traction before they release the report. Yes, yes, and this 0:12:00.280 --> 0:12:02.320 is like, this drives me nuts. I'm sure it drove 0:12:02.400 --> 0:12:04.640 Jason nuts. It drove a lot of people nuts. That 0:12:04.760 --> 0:12:07.720 to me is like FOYA is screaming like, let me in, 0:12:07.840 --> 0:12:10.640 let me in. This is my job. Now they're saying 0:12:10.679 --> 0:12:13.079 one thing. You want to know what it really says. 0:12:13.200 --> 0:12:14.520 Then you got to get the documents. 0:12:16.240 --> 0:12:19.440 And for just a second, it looks like we might 0:12:19.600 --> 0:12:22.800 get a FOYA compliant version of the report quickly because 0:12:22.840 --> 0:12:27.920 the DOJ granted expedited processing to my request. Well, except 0:12:27.960 --> 0:12:31.199 that they almost immediately tell us that it'll take them 0:12:31.280 --> 0:12:33.920 even longer to process the report under the Freedom of 0:12:33.960 --> 0:12:39.120 Information Act because it fell within quote unusual circumstances. So 0:12:39.160 --> 0:12:42.080 we sue the government to get that report. Oh and 0:12:42.320 --> 0:12:45.680 while this is all going on, something a little weird happens. 0:12:46.280 --> 0:12:49.080 So about a month after Bill Barr released his initial 0:12:49.120 --> 0:12:52.959 summary of Mueller's findings, they finally released the first version 0:12:52.960 --> 0:12:56.040 of the mull report itself, but it wasn't actually processed 0:12:56.080 --> 0:12:59.800 and redacted. According to the FOYA stachues, it was FOYA esque, 0:13:00.080 --> 0:13:02.600 so they were deact to things like grain jury stuff 0:13:02.640 --> 0:13:06.600 and like harm to ongoing investigations, or they just use 0:13:06.679 --> 0:13:09.240 their own kind of shorthand for it instead of the 0:13:09.280 --> 0:13:10.959 actual FOYA statute. 0:13:10.640 --> 0:13:13.040 Harm to ongoing matter, sorry andthrow matter. 0:13:13.280 --> 0:13:16.240 Yeah, right right, that's the right, right. So we got 0:13:16.280 --> 0:13:18.400 into court and we're immediately like they got to release 0:13:18.400 --> 0:13:21.680 the FOYA version like now, like next week, two days, 0:13:21.720 --> 0:13:24.120 like really really fast. They shouldn't need that much time. 0:13:24.360 --> 0:13:26.480 They've already been through the report. They're already telling everybody 0:13:26.480 --> 0:13:29.040 what the report says. Like they need to release a 0:13:29.120 --> 0:13:33.360 FOYA compliant version of this report like as soon as possible, 0:13:33.360 --> 0:13:35.880 because every day that goes by is another day in 0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:37.920 which there's a story out there and we don't really know. 0:13:37.920 --> 0:13:40.080 If that's what the report says or not, which it's 0:13:40.080 --> 0:13:43.400 important to note, is creating an environment that the judge said, 0:13:43.480 --> 0:13:46.480 quote I think is going to cause a significant portion 0:13:46.559 --> 0:13:49.679 of the American public to be concerned about whether there 0:13:49.760 --> 0:13:50.760 is transparency. 0:13:51.160 --> 0:13:54.640 So we're basically putting the title of the metal, trying 0:13:54.679 --> 0:13:56.640 to make this lawsuit go as fast as we can 0:13:56.679 --> 0:13:59.720 get the judge to go, and he was willing to 0:13:59.720 --> 0:14:03.240 go pretty fast. So they get a deadline by which 0:14:03.280 --> 0:14:06.600 they have to properly review and reject the report. 0:14:06.920 --> 0:14:11.880 Then our Foyer redacted report comes out May sixth, twenty nineteen. 0:14:12.200 --> 0:14:15.280 But all the redactions were largely the same. The big 0:14:15.280 --> 0:14:18.439 difference is that instead of the weird shorthand, they were 0:14:18.440 --> 0:14:22.320 now citing Freedom of Information Act exemptions to justify what 0:14:22.360 --> 0:14:23.400 they would keep secret. 0:14:23.440 --> 0:14:26.080 But this stuff was really important because that's how we 0:14:26.160 --> 0:14:28.320 make sure the government is complying with the law. 0:14:28.720 --> 0:14:33.760 Yes, exactly, Matt Accountability. Plus, now that we knew how 0:14:33.760 --> 0:14:37.440 they were trying to justify the redactions, we could challenge 0:14:37.440 --> 0:14:40.200 those in court, which we did and. 0:14:40.080 --> 0:14:43.040 You'll hear all about that after the break. 0:14:46.200 --> 0:14:48.760 Before the break, we had just gotten our hands on 0:14:48.800 --> 0:14:52.040 a Foyer process copy of the Mola report where the 0:14:52.040 --> 0:14:54.560 government has said, here's what we want to keep secret, 0:14:54.720 --> 0:14:56.920 and here are the exemptions that let us do that. 0:14:57.600 --> 0:14:59.600 So now it's time to go back to court where 0:14:59.600 --> 0:15:02.120 we say, oh, you want to keep that a secret 0:15:02.120 --> 0:15:05.680 because you think the Freedom of Information Act allows you to, okay, 0:15:05.880 --> 0:15:06.280 prove it. 0:15:06.480 --> 0:15:10.520 Yeah, because that's what FOYA is like. Stuff gets withheld, 0:15:10.520 --> 0:15:13.600 stuff gets rejected. But the law says that the government 0:15:13.760 --> 0:15:17.160 has to prove in court, if challenged, that everything that 0:15:17.200 --> 0:15:20.160 they withheld, that there's a basis in the statute to 0:15:20.240 --> 0:15:22.840 do that, and they have to prove that with some 0:15:23.080 --> 0:15:25.560 level of evidence, and they have to show how the 0:15:25.600 --> 0:15:27.240 exemptions actually apply. 0:15:27.600 --> 0:15:29.440 Yeah, we really wanted to challenge a lot of the 0:15:29.480 --> 0:15:33.280 redactions that were hiding the reasons why Muller concluded that 0:15:33.320 --> 0:15:36.320 some people Donald Trump Junior being a big one here, 0:15:36.560 --> 0:15:39.160 wouldn't be charged with crimes even though some of their 0:15:39.200 --> 0:15:41.360 conduct was already publicly detailed. 0:15:41.640 --> 0:15:44.120 Okay, so let me explain a little bit more about 0:15:44.160 --> 0:15:48.440 how this works. Normally, the government just explains everything they withheld, 0:15:48.480 --> 0:15:51.000 and they put it in these declarations to describe what 0:15:51.040 --> 0:15:54.400 they withheld and explain why it's exempt like it rises 0:15:54.440 --> 0:15:57.680 and falls with that. But sometimes the court will actually 0:15:57.720 --> 0:16:00.320 say no, I want to look at it, especially if 0:16:00.320 --> 0:16:04.320 there's kind of reasons to be concerned about whether the 0:16:04.360 --> 0:16:06.440 government is really being straight about it. 0:16:06.560 --> 0:16:08.560 Yeah, we really weren't sure what the judge in our 0:16:08.600 --> 0:16:10.040 case was going to do at this point. 0:16:10.120 --> 0:16:12.440 And so the next big thing that happened in the 0:16:12.480 --> 0:16:16.320 case is March fifth, twenty twenty, which is like just 0:16:16.400 --> 0:16:19.520 before the world shuts down for COVID. I remember, I'm 0:16:19.640 --> 0:16:23.920 in New Orleans for the Nikar Conference, which is a 0:16:24.200 --> 0:16:27.480 conference of like mostly data journalists and alta foya stuff. 0:16:27.600 --> 0:16:31.000 So I'm there when we get this decision, and the judge, 0:16:31.040 --> 0:16:35.880 who's a Bush appointee just like demolishes Bill Barr and says, 0:16:36.080 --> 0:16:39.200 I'm going to read this report myself because of this 0:16:39.360 --> 0:16:43.320 super shady way that the Justice Department went about first 0:16:43.360 --> 0:16:46.000 releasing like their summary and other things. And then there 0:16:46.040 --> 0:16:50.680 were disputes between Mueller's team and the Attorney General Bill 0:16:50.680 --> 0:16:53.960 Barr about whether Bill Barr was mischaracterizing things like that 0:16:54.080 --> 0:16:56.920 whole ball of X turned into the judge saying this 0:16:57.000 --> 0:17:01.000 is all fishy. He writes a very scathing opinion. 0:17:01.200 --> 0:17:03.080 Yeah, we have a couple of excerpts here from it, 0:17:03.360 --> 0:17:06.000 and we've asked comedian Kyle Kanane to read it. 0:17:06.160 --> 0:17:07.280 All right, give it a shot. 0:17:07.920 --> 0:17:11.320 The inconsistencies between Attorney General Bar's statements, made at the 0:17:11.359 --> 0:17:13.359 time when the public did not have access to the 0:17:13.359 --> 0:17:16.119 redacted version of the Mullor Report, caused the court to 0:17:16.240 --> 0:17:20.040 seriously question whether Attorney General Barr made a calculated attempt 0:17:20.080 --> 0:17:23.359 to influence public disclosure about the Mullor Report in favor 0:17:23.400 --> 0:17:24.320 of President Trump. 0:17:24.640 --> 0:17:28.080 He's calling into question the credibility of the sitting Attorney 0:17:28.080 --> 0:17:31.800 General of the United States. Like that's a big deal. 0:17:32.400 --> 0:17:34.439 Bear in mind, this is Bill Barr, So this is 0:17:34.480 --> 0:17:37.800 Trump version one. This is when like most of the 0:17:38.000 --> 0:17:41.520 cabinet people, you know, most of the people in positions 0:17:41.560 --> 0:17:46.160 of power, they are people with like long Republican pedigrees. 0:17:46.640 --> 0:17:48.399 And I remember calling Jason and we were both like, 0:17:48.560 --> 0:17:51.800 oh my god, Oh my god, did you see that part? 0:17:51.960 --> 0:17:53.560 Can you believe what he just said? And you know, 0:17:53.600 --> 0:17:56.800 it was, oh man, it was unbelievable. But what that 0:17:56.880 --> 0:17:59.280 meant was that the DJ had to send over a 0:17:59.320 --> 0:18:02.720 secret package to the court. Then, after looking over everything 0:18:02.760 --> 0:18:05.919 for a few months, the judge granted summary judgment on 0:18:05.960 --> 0:18:12.199 September thirtieth, twenty twenty, which mostly upheld the redactions and 0:18:12.280 --> 0:18:15.439 effectively ended our case at the district court level. So 0:18:15.560 --> 0:18:17.119 with that lost stinging a little. 0:18:17.320 --> 0:18:19.760 We looked ahead to the appeals process because there were 0:18:19.880 --> 0:18:21.520 things that we felt like we had a. 0:18:21.400 --> 0:18:23.600 Good shot at challenging on appeal. 0:18:23.600 --> 0:18:26.880 And in particular, we really wanted to better understand why 0:18:26.960 --> 0:18:30.000 certain people weren't charged with any crimes even though they're 0:18:30.040 --> 0:18:32.080 mentioned in the report and there's information about him in 0:18:32.080 --> 0:18:35.520 the report, there wasn't an explanation about why, for example, 0:18:35.680 --> 0:18:39.200 Donald Trump Junior wasn't charged with any crimes despite things 0:18:39.200 --> 0:18:41.200 that were found in the investigation. So we kind of 0:18:41.320 --> 0:18:43.400 zeroed in on what we wanted to do next, and 0:18:43.960 --> 0:18:45.960 that's what we were focusing on when we looked ahead 0:18:45.960 --> 0:18:49.080 to an appeal. And a reason that that was really 0:18:49.080 --> 0:18:52.520 important was because there was this constant drum beat out 0:18:52.520 --> 0:18:56.080 of Trump World that this was an illegal political witch hunt, 0:18:56.440 --> 0:18:58.800 and we thought that a real good way to get 0:18:58.840 --> 0:19:01.439 to the bottom of that, whether that is true or 0:19:01.440 --> 0:19:04.119 not true, was to take a close look at how 0:19:04.200 --> 0:19:07.400 they handled Donald Trump Junior, which would tend to show 0:19:07.440 --> 0:19:11.040 you if this was an illegal political witch hunt, then 0:19:11.160 --> 0:19:12.760 you would think that they went out of their way 0:19:12.800 --> 0:19:15.800 to investigate Don Jior when there was no basis to 0:19:15.880 --> 0:19:19.679 do so. But conversely, if they had the goods on 0:19:19.840 --> 0:19:22.280 Don Junior and they didn't charge him. That would suggest 0:19:22.440 --> 0:19:24.320 it's the opposite of a political witch hunt. 0:19:24.440 --> 0:19:27.480 And there's a huge public interest in knowing did Mueller 0:19:27.600 --> 0:19:28.600 do a good job or not. 0:19:29.040 --> 0:19:31.760 And so we took that up to the DC Circuit 0:19:31.800 --> 0:19:34.600 Court of Appeals and we argued over that like pretty 0:19:34.680 --> 0:19:36.080 narrow issue, which we. 0:19:36.200 --> 0:19:38.720 Actually have tape of the government. 0:19:38.320 --> 0:19:41.200 Is withholding not only the names of Trump campaign officials 0:19:41.200 --> 0:19:44.439 who were investigated and not charged, but also the justification 0:19:44.520 --> 0:19:47.679 for those decisions. Oral arguments are really fun, but the 0:19:47.680 --> 0:19:51.840 most rewarding thing is when the other lawyers arguing and 0:19:51.880 --> 0:19:54.040 the judges are taking the stuff that you wrote in 0:19:54.119 --> 0:19:57.720 your brief and they're using that material to pound your 0:19:57.760 --> 0:20:01.640 opponent into the ground. And that's exactly what happened. They 0:20:01.680 --> 0:20:04.320 completely understood our theory of how to look at all this. 0:20:04.520 --> 0:20:07.159 The public's need for understanding is really high. Here the 0:20:07.160 --> 0:20:09.640 president is saying it's a scam, and. 0:20:09.560 --> 0:20:13.560 They just rampaged on this government lawyer who was evading 0:20:13.560 --> 0:20:15.720 their questions and just trying to like make the thing 0:20:15.800 --> 0:20:16.240 go away. 0:20:16.480 --> 0:20:19.480 A clear evid insury showing is required to establish government 0:20:19.560 --> 0:20:21.280 misconduct for purposes are not. 0:20:21.240 --> 0:20:27.159 Talking about misconductor. This rationale it says the public is 0:20:27.320 --> 0:20:29.080 entitled to understand. 0:20:28.800 --> 0:20:30.080 And it didn't go away. 0:20:30.240 --> 0:20:33.480 The individual has been identified, The facts with respect of 0:20:33.560 --> 0:20:34.920 that individual are in. 0:20:34.840 --> 0:20:37.359 The public record. They just they really beat them up. 0:20:37.520 --> 0:20:40.520 The only thing that's missing that you've redacted is the 0:20:40.640 --> 0:20:43.560 explanation for why the government took the position it took 0:20:43.600 --> 0:20:44.199 in the report. 0:20:44.720 --> 0:20:47.800