1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,600 Speaker 1: My expertise is getting secrets from the government, and damn it, 2 00:00:03,760 --> 00:00:06,080 Speaker 1: I was going to get those Muller records first. 3 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:10,280 Speaker 2: That's investigative journalist Jason Leopold. These days, he's reporting for 4 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 2: Bloomberg News. But on Saturday, November two, twenty nineteen, Jason 5 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 2: and his team were waiting impatiently for documents from Robert 6 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:21,759 Speaker 2: Muller's investigation into Russian interference in the twenty sixteen election. 7 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:25,079 Speaker 1: It was the first tranne from thousands of pages of 8 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:28,040 Speaker 1: interview summaries that the FBI had tried to keep secret, 9 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 1: but we managed to pry them loose. 10 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 2: Jason was certain there'd be important information in these pages 11 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 2: and he couldn't wait to break whatever news they contained. 12 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:40,919 Speaker 2: You see, CNN was also getting these records. The issue 13 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:44,200 Speaker 2: was that Jason's copy was supposed to be mailed to Chicago. 14 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 1: Meanwhile, CNN is in Washington, DC and the records office 15 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 1: is in Virginia, so they're going to get it first. 16 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 1: And I was like, there's no way I will accept this. 17 00:00:56,560 --> 00:00:59,360 Speaker 2: So after some hounding, the government agreed to reroute the 18 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 2: package in get it to Jason's team as quickly as possible, 19 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 2: and then on this Saturday. In twenty nineteen, the race 20 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:09,760 Speaker 2: against time began when Jason's colleague in DC received a 21 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 2: package with. 22 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 1: A CD inside a CD like it was nineteen ninety nine, which, 23 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:17,560 Speaker 1: by the way, is how they still do it to 24 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:18,119 Speaker 1: this day. 25 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 2: But with the records firmly in hand, the gravity of 26 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:22,120 Speaker 2: the situation set in. 27 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 1: It was like, holy, we just got the first release 28 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:32,120 Speaker 1: from the Mauler investigation and immediately just went crazy and 29 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 1: saying that like, all right, we have this. We don't 30 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 1: know if CNN has it, but we have an advantage. 31 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:39,040 Speaker 1: It's Saturday. We're willing to work on a Saturday. 32 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:41,399 Speaker 2: It didn't take long for Jason and his colleagues to 33 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:43,039 Speaker 2: find something that public deserve to know. 34 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 1: There was this conspiracy floating around as it related to 35 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 1: the Democratic National Committee and the hack of their emails. 36 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 3: President Trump asked President Zelensky to look into CrowdStrike. He 37 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 3: was referring to a cybersecurity firm at the center of 38 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:01,000 Speaker 3: a conspiracy theory that suggests you the Crane not rush Up, 39 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 3: was behind the DNC server hack in the twenty sixteen elections. 40 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 1: And so these records revealed that it was actually Paul 41 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 1: Maniford who was pushing and floating. 42 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 4: That conspiracy theory. It was such a big deal at 43 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 4: the time, you know. 44 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 1: So we got the first story up just honestly, within 45 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:18,359 Speaker 1: an hour, and then just kept filling it out. 46 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 2: Sure enough, Jason and the team beat CNN by ours man. 47 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:27,520 Speaker 1: Everyone there was just so excited, and that evening it 48 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:30,680 Speaker 1: was MSNBC that had a segment on it, joining us 49 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 1: now senior investigative reporter BuzzFeed News, Jason Leopold. The documents 50 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 1: provide a window into what was taking place behind the scenes, 51 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 1: and it allows the public to see what the FBI 52 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 1: memorialize firsthand. 53 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:45,320 Speaker 2: And boy was there a lot more, so much more. 54 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 4: Than we can fit into this episode. But the thing is. 55 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:51,679 Speaker 1: We wouldn't know any of it, not one bit, if 56 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:54,639 Speaker 1: not for a little thing called the Freedom of Information 57 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:56,240 Speaker 1: Act the FOIA. 58 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:58,960 Speaker 2: It's something Jason and I know very well because we 59 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:01,760 Speaker 2: both thought to get these documents released, which is what 60 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:02,920 Speaker 2: we do together every. 61 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 1: Day, and that's what we're here to talk about. Cue 62 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:10,359 Speaker 1: the music. I'm investigative journalist Jason Leopold. I spend most 63 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:12,400 Speaker 1: of my days getting documents from the government. 64 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 2: I'm attorney Matt Topic, and I fight them in court 65 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:16,240 Speaker 2: to open their files when they don't want to. 66 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 1: From Bloomberg and no smiling. This is Disclosure, a podcast 67 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:25,120 Speaker 1: about crying loose government secrets, the Freedom of Information Act, 68 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 1: and the unexpected places that takes us. 69 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 4: I mean, I'll just say it, Matt. 70 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 1: I never thought that the Russia investigation and the Mueller 71 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 1: investigation that looked into Trump would have such a long life. 72 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:45,040 Speaker 4: We're seeing that in the news all over again. 73 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, enormous news. The Trump Justice Department has now indicted 74 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 2: former FBI director James Comy Jim Comy, charged with lying 75 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 2: to Congress. 76 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 5: Just days after the president publicly pressured Attorney General Pam 77 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 5: Bondi to pursue case against his opponents, including Comy by name. 78 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 1: The indictment is tied to Comy's twenty twenty testimony in 79 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 1: front of Congress about Russian meddling in the twenty sixteen 80 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 1: presidential election. 81 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 2: In about what three days before the Statute of Limitations 82 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 2: was going to explare. 83 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:15,839 Speaker 6: My family and I have known for years that there 84 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:18,279 Speaker 6: are costs to standing up to Donald Trump. But I 85 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 6: have great confidence in the federal judicial system and I'm innocent, 86 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 6: So let's have a trial. 87 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:28,039 Speaker 1: It's funny because anytime there's something that is related to 88 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:30,920 Speaker 1: a hot button issue, I immediately think back to did 89 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 1: I file a Foyer request for anything related to that 90 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 1: person or anything that they did. And when the news 91 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:42,599 Speaker 1: broke about Comy being indicted, I immediately thought back to a 92 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 1: request that I filed in twenty eighteen. So back in 93 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:50,040 Speaker 1: twenty eighteen, Trump said during an interview with the Daily 94 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:55,120 Speaker 1: Caller that he had one hundred pictures of James Comy 95 00:04:55,360 --> 00:05:00,479 Speaker 1: and Robert Muller hugging and kissing each other. When he 96 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:05,159 Speaker 1: said that that was a Foya opportunity. So I filled 97 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:07,839 Speaker 1: a Foy request with the FBI and said, I would 98 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:11,719 Speaker 1: like to have pictures of James Comy and Robert Muller hugging, 99 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 1: kissing each other. 100 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 4: Oh, that's just so good. 101 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:20,039 Speaker 1: And the FBI responded by saying they couldn't locate any 102 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:22,880 Speaker 1: photographs of Komy and Muller hugging and kissing. 103 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:28,040 Speaker 4: So I wrote a little story about it and tweeted 104 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:30,040 Speaker 4: that app Matt, can you read what I tweeted? 105 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:33,320 Speaker 2: I would be honored. Jacob Foya update, the FBI has 106 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:35,919 Speaker 2: not been able to locate any photographs of James Comy 107 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 2: and Robert Muller hugging and kissing parentheses. Trump City had 108 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:43,680 Speaker 2: one hundred. My favorite part is you got a response 109 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 2: from Komy that says, my wife was so relieved, crying 110 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 2: laughing emoji. 111 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 1: But Matt, as far as that recent indictment from this 112 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 1: year is concerned, I'm not going to get into whether 113 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 1: Kobe should or shouldn't have been charged, but the history 114 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:03,400 Speaker 1: leading up to it is worth discussing. One of the 115 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:06,239 Speaker 1: reasons why the effects of the Russian investigation are still 116 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:09,600 Speaker 1: being felt now is because at the time, it was 117 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:15,600 Speaker 1: an investigation that just dominated Trump's entire presidency, and Trump 118 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 1: was outraged that he was under federal investigation, which is 119 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:25,479 Speaker 1: why it also became such a big bite for us 120 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 1: to get all those records that might never have seen 121 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:32,720 Speaker 1: the light of day. So we're talking about something that 122 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:36,880 Speaker 1: dates back to twenty sixteen when Comy was still in 123 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 1: charge of the FBI, right where the FBI was secretly 124 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 1: at work on an investigation called Crossfire Hurricane, and that 125 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:49,760 Speaker 1: name was chosen as a homage to the Rolling Stones. 126 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 1: What's the song I forgot anyway, We'll figure it out. 127 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:53,839 Speaker 2: It's jumping Jack Flesh. 128 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 4: Jason Poser, Matt stop. Don't listen to him. I mean, 129 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 4: he's right, but don't listen to him. 130 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:03,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, I am right. 131 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 1: So the investigation was to essentially look into Trump's ties 132 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 1: to Russia's campaigns ties to Russia. It was opened after 133 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 1: if anyone recalls Trump saying Russia, if you're listening, I 134 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 1: hope you're able to find the thirty thousand emails that 135 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 1: are missing. The investigation also centered around the sources of 136 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 1: information that we're coming into the FBI, including what we 137 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 1: know now or very suspect sources that were essentially saying 138 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:36,840 Speaker 1: Trump has these ties to Russia, campaign has these ties 139 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 1: to Russia. There's these communications that are taking place with 140 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 1: people at the Kremlin. FBI opens up this investigation. Trump 141 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 1: gets elected president, and immediately after he's elected, multiple congressional 142 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 1: committees start these Russia related investigations. There was lots of 143 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 1: leaks taking place that kind of forced the Attorney General 144 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 1: at the time Justice Department, Jeff Sessions, to ultimately recuse himself. 145 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 7: My staff recommended recuse them. 146 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:11,400 Speaker 8: They said that since I had involvement with the campaign, 147 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 8: I should not be involved in any campaign investigation. 148 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 1: And then Collby is fired from the FBI by Trump 149 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 1: in May twenty seventeen, which Kobe ultimately claimed was related 150 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 1: to his handling of the Russia investigation. 151 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 6: I take the President's words. I know I was fired 152 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 6: because of something about the way I was conducting the 153 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 6: Russian investigation was in some way putting pressure on him, 154 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 6: in some way irritating him, and he decided to fire 155 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:35,720 Speaker 6: me because of that. 156 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:39,760 Speaker 1: So, with Sessions recusing himself, this led to Robert Muller, 157 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 1: former director of the FBI, being appointed as special counsel, 158 00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 1: you know, to make sure any investigation was independent. 159 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:49,600 Speaker 2: So really the person we have to thank is mister 160 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 2: magoo aka Jeff Sessions. I keep handy for these occasions. 161 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 2: The Wikipedia page for a list of nicknames used by 162 00:08:57,080 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 2: Donald Trump, I had to look it up at The 163 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 2: nickname for Jeff Session was mister McGoo. 164 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 4: By the way, no nickname for Robber Maler on the list. 165 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 1: Surprisingly, fast forward to March twenty nineteen, we heard that 166 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 1: the Mala report was going to be submitted any day 167 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 1: to Bill Barr, the Attorney General at the time, who 168 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 1: told a Senate committee months earlier that the public deserved 169 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 1: to know what the results of the investigation were. 170 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 7: My goal will be to provide as much transparency as 171 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:27,560 Speaker 7: I can consistent with the law, and I will not 172 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 7: let personal, political, or other improper interests influence my decision. 173 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 1: I wanted to put that to the test, so I 174 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:38,360 Speaker 1: called Matt, my attorney, also known as the Foya King 175 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 1: of Chicago, as his coffee mug says, Matt and his 176 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 1: team have gotten the government to release documents hundreds of times, 177 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:48,120 Speaker 1: like when he forced the release of the Lakwan McDonald 178 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:49,319 Speaker 1: dashcam footage. 179 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 3: Mayor Manuel and the prosecutor battle for months to keep 180 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:55,599 Speaker 3: the dash cam video under wraps. They lose when a 181 00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:57,240 Speaker 3: judge orders the release of. 182 00:09:57,200 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 1: The video, and he helps me pry things lose from 183 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 1: the government, regardless of which party. 184 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 4: Is in power. 185 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 2: So the plan was that Jason would submit a FOYA 186 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 2: or Freedom of Information Act request for the report. And 187 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 2: let me just explain a little bit. You're going to 188 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 2: hear an awful lot about FOYA. So, FOYA is a 189 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 2: statute that says the public is entitled to government records since. 190 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 1: It's a government of the people and for the people, right. 191 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 1: And this law says that the work of all these 192 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:30,080 Speaker 1: government agencies, they're emails, notes, meeting man, it's all that stuff. 193 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:32,720 Speaker 1: It should be available to the public if a member 194 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:34,319 Speaker 1: of the public asks. 195 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:37,880 Speaker 2: Except in certain circumstances where there's something like personal privacy 196 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:41,320 Speaker 2: or an ongoing investigation, or national security or a long 197 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 2: list of things where the government can keep information secret 198 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:46,400 Speaker 2: from you. But when they do that, you have a 199 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:48,920 Speaker 2: right to go to court to challenge that. And Jason 200 00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 2: and I have done that countless times in order to 201 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 2: get access to all kinds of records. But the first 202 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:57,120 Speaker 2: step in using the FOYA is always the same. Make 203 00:10:57,160 --> 00:10:58,320 Speaker 2: a request, right. 204 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 1: Just request the docum from the government agency that would 205 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 1: have them. I do these requests as a journalists all 206 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 1: the time. It's my thing, but really anybody can do this, 207 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 1: and the law says that the government has to respond 208 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 1: within certain. 209 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 2: Timelines in the request either has to be denied, or, 210 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:17,600 Speaker 2: as happens all the time, the agency just blows you 211 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:21,160 Speaker 2: off and doesn't actually comply with their legal obligations. So 212 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:23,800 Speaker 2: once that happens, then you can go to court to 213 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 2: challenge it. 214 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:26,839 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I wanted to use this process to get 215 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:29,160 Speaker 1: my hands on the Muller Report as quickly as possible. 216 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:32,559 Speaker 2: So he makes the request and then like the next thing, 217 00:11:32,559 --> 00:11:36,640 Speaker 2: that happens publicly is that Bill Barr sends his letter 218 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:39,720 Speaker 2: to Congress with the quote principal conclusions. 219 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 1: So what's out in the public is not the Muller 220 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 1: report itself. At this point, we couldn't see Mueller's take, 221 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:49,080 Speaker 1: just the summary from bar. 222 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 2: They wanted to get their version of what the report 223 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:55,280 Speaker 2: said out in the world and have it get some 224 00:11:55,400 --> 00:12:00,200 Speaker 2: traction before they release the report. Yes, yes, and this 225 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:02,320 Speaker 2: is like, this drives me nuts. I'm sure it drove 226 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:04,640 Speaker 2: Jason nuts. It drove a lot of people nuts. That 227 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:07,720 Speaker 2: to me is like FOYA is screaming like, let me in, 228 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:10,640 Speaker 2: let me in. This is my job. Now they're saying 229 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:13,079 Speaker 2: one thing. You want to know what it really says. 230 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:14,520 Speaker 2: Then you got to get the documents. 231 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:19,440 Speaker 1: And for just a second, it looks like we might 232 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 1: get a FOYA compliant version of the report quickly because 233 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 1: the DOJ granted expedited processing to my request. Well, except 234 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:31,199 Speaker 1: that they almost immediately tell us that it'll take them 235 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:33,920 Speaker 1: even longer to process the report under the Freedom of 236 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:39,120 Speaker 1: Information Act because it fell within quote unusual circumstances. So 237 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:42,080 Speaker 1: we sue the government to get that report. Oh and 238 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:45,680 Speaker 1: while this is all going on, something a little weird happens. 239 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:49,080 Speaker 2: So about a month after Bill Barr released his initial 240 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:52,959 Speaker 2: summary of Mueller's findings, they finally released the first version 241 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:56,040 Speaker 2: of the mull report itself, but it wasn't actually processed 242 00:12:56,080 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 2: and redacted. According to the FOYA stachues, it was FOYA esque, 243 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 2: so they were deact to things like grain jury stuff 244 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:06,600 Speaker 2: and like harm to ongoing investigations, or they just use 245 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:09,240 Speaker 2: their own kind of shorthand for it instead of the 246 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:10,959 Speaker 2: actual FOYA statute. 247 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 4: Harm to ongoing matter, sorry andthrow matter. 248 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, right right, that's the right, right. So we got 249 00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:18,400 Speaker 2: into court and we're immediately like they got to release 250 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:21,680 Speaker 2: the FOYA version like now, like next week, two days, 251 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 2: like really really fast. They shouldn't need that much time. 252 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 2: They've already been through the report. They're already telling everybody 253 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:29,040 Speaker 2: what the report says. Like they need to release a 254 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:33,360 Speaker 2: FOYA compliant version of this report like as soon as possible, 255 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 2: because every day that goes by is another day in 256 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:37,920 Speaker 2: which there's a story out there and we don't really know. 257 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:40,080 Speaker 8: If that's what the report says or not, which it's 258 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 8: important to note, is creating an environment that the judge said, 259 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 8: quote I think is going to cause a significant portion 260 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:49,679 Speaker 8: of the American public to be concerned about whether there 261 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 8: is transparency. 262 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 2: So we're basically putting the title of the metal, trying 263 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:56,640 Speaker 2: to make this lawsuit go as fast as we can 264 00:13:56,679 --> 00:13:59,720 Speaker 2: get the judge to go, and he was willing to 265 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:03,240 Speaker 2: go pretty fast. So they get a deadline by which 266 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:06,600 Speaker 2: they have to properly review and reject the report. 267 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 1: Then our Foyer redacted report comes out May sixth, twenty nineteen. 268 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 1: But all the redactions were largely the same. The big 269 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:18,439 Speaker 1: difference is that instead of the weird shorthand, they were 270 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 1: now citing Freedom of Information Act exemptions to justify what 271 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 1: they would keep secret. 272 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 2: But this stuff was really important because that's how we 273 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 2: make sure the government is complying with the law. 274 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 1: Yes, exactly, Matt Accountability. Plus, now that we knew how 275 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 1: they were trying to justify the redactions, we could challenge 276 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 1: those in court, which we did and. 277 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:43,040 Speaker 4: You'll hear all about that after the break. 278 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:48,760 Speaker 1: Before the break, we had just gotten our hands on 279 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 1: a Foyer process copy of the Mola report where the 280 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:54,560 Speaker 1: government has said, here's what we want to keep secret, 281 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:56,920 Speaker 1: and here are the exemptions that let us do that. 282 00:14:57,600 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 1: So now it's time to go back to court where 283 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:02,120 Speaker 1: we say, oh, you want to keep that a secret 284 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 1: because you think the Freedom of Information Act allows you to, okay, 285 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:06,280 Speaker 1: prove it. 286 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, because that's what FOYA is like. Stuff gets withheld, 287 00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 2: stuff gets rejected. But the law says that the government 288 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 2: has to prove in court, if challenged, that everything that 289 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:20,160 Speaker 2: they withheld, that there's a basis in the statute to 290 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:22,840 Speaker 2: do that, and they have to prove that with some 291 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:25,560 Speaker 2: level of evidence, and they have to show how the 292 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 2: exemptions actually apply. 293 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, we really wanted to challenge a lot of the 294 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:33,280 Speaker 1: redactions that were hiding the reasons why Muller concluded that 295 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:36,320 Speaker 1: some people Donald Trump Junior being a big one here, 296 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 1: wouldn't be charged with crimes even though some of their 297 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:41,360 Speaker 1: conduct was already publicly detailed. 298 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:44,120 Speaker 2: Okay, so let me explain a little bit more about 299 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 2: how this works. Normally, the government just explains everything they withheld, 300 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:51,000 Speaker 2: and they put it in these declarations to describe what 301 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:54,400 Speaker 2: they withheld and explain why it's exempt like it rises 302 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:57,680 Speaker 2: and falls with that. But sometimes the court will actually 303 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 2: say no, I want to look at it, especially if 304 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 2: there's kind of reasons to be concerned about whether the 305 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 2: government is really being straight about it. 306 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, we really weren't sure what the judge in our 307 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 1: case was going to do at this point. 308 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:12,440 Speaker 2: And so the next big thing that happened in the 309 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 2: case is March fifth, twenty twenty, which is like just 310 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:19,520 Speaker 2: before the world shuts down for COVID. I remember, I'm 311 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:23,920 Speaker 2: in New Orleans for the Nikar Conference, which is a 312 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 2: conference of like mostly data journalists and alta foya stuff. 313 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 2: So I'm there when we get this decision, and the judge, 314 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:35,880 Speaker 2: who's a Bush appointee just like demolishes Bill Barr and says, 315 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 2: I'm going to read this report myself because of this 316 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:43,320 Speaker 2: super shady way that the Justice Department went about first 317 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:46,000 Speaker 2: releasing like their summary and other things. And then there 318 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:50,680 Speaker 2: were disputes between Mueller's team and the Attorney General Bill 319 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:53,960 Speaker 2: Barr about whether Bill Barr was mischaracterizing things like that 320 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:56,920 Speaker 2: whole ball of X turned into the judge saying this 321 00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 2: is all fishy. He writes a very scathing opinion. 322 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, we have a couple of excerpts here from it, 323 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:06,000 Speaker 1: and we've asked comedian Kyle Kanane to read it. 324 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 4: All right, give it a shot. 325 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:11,320 Speaker 5: The inconsistencies between Attorney General Bar's statements, made at the 326 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:13,359 Speaker 5: time when the public did not have access to the 327 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:16,119 Speaker 5: redacted version of the Mullor Report, caused the court to 328 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:20,040 Speaker 5: seriously question whether Attorney General Barr made a calculated attempt 329 00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:23,359 Speaker 5: to influence public disclosure about the Mullor Report in favor 330 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:24,320 Speaker 5: of President Trump. 331 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 2: He's calling into question the credibility of the sitting Attorney 332 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 2: General of the United States. Like that's a big deal. 333 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:34,439 Speaker 2: Bear in mind, this is Bill Barr, So this is 334 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:37,800 Speaker 2: Trump version one. This is when like most of the 335 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 2: cabinet people, you know, most of the people in positions 336 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:46,160 Speaker 2: of power, they are people with like long Republican pedigrees. 337 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:48,399 Speaker 2: And I remember calling Jason and we were both like, 338 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:51,800 Speaker 2: oh my god, Oh my god, did you see that part? 339 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:53,560 Speaker 2: Can you believe what he just said? And you know, 340 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 2: it was, oh man, it was unbelievable. But what that 341 00:17:56,880 --> 00:17:59,280 Speaker 2: meant was that the DJ had to send over a 342 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:02,720 Speaker 2: secret package to the court. Then, after looking over everything 343 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:05,919 Speaker 2: for a few months, the judge granted summary judgment on 344 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:12,199 Speaker 2: September thirtieth, twenty twenty, which mostly upheld the redactions and 345 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:15,439 Speaker 2: effectively ended our case at the district court level. So 346 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:17,119 Speaker 2: with that lost stinging a little. 347 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 1: We looked ahead to the appeals process because there were 348 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 1: things that we felt like we had a. 349 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:23,600 Speaker 4: Good shot at challenging on appeal. 350 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:26,880 Speaker 2: And in particular, we really wanted to better understand why 351 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:30,000 Speaker 2: certain people weren't charged with any crimes even though they're 352 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:32,080 Speaker 2: mentioned in the report and there's information about him in 353 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 2: the report, there wasn't an explanation about why, for example, 354 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:39,200 Speaker 2: Donald Trump Junior wasn't charged with any crimes despite things 355 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:41,200 Speaker 2: that were found in the investigation. So we kind of 356 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:43,400 Speaker 2: zeroed in on what we wanted to do next, and 357 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:45,960 Speaker 2: that's what we were focusing on when we looked ahead 358 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 2: to an appeal. And a reason that that was really 359 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 2: important was because there was this constant drum beat out 360 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 2: of Trump World that this was an illegal political witch hunt, 361 00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:58,800 Speaker 2: and we thought that a real good way to get 362 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:01,439 Speaker 2: to the bottom of that, whether that is true or 363 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:04,119 Speaker 2: not true, was to take a close look at how 364 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:07,400 Speaker 2: they handled Donald Trump Junior, which would tend to show 365 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 2: you if this was an illegal political witch hunt, then 366 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 2: you would think that they went out of their way 367 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:15,800 Speaker 2: to investigate Don Jior when there was no basis to 368 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:19,679 Speaker 2: do so. But conversely, if they had the goods on 369 00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 2: Don Junior and they didn't charge him. That would suggest 370 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:24,320 Speaker 2: it's the opposite of a political witch hunt. 371 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:27,480 Speaker 1: And there's a huge public interest in knowing did Mueller 372 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:28,600 Speaker 1: do a good job or not. 373 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:31,760 Speaker 2: And so we took that up to the DC Circuit 374 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:34,600 Speaker 2: Court of Appeals and we argued over that like pretty 375 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:36,080 Speaker 2: narrow issue, which we. 376 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:38,720 Speaker 4: Actually have tape of the government. 377 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:41,200 Speaker 2: Is withholding not only the names of Trump campaign officials 378 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:44,439 Speaker 2: who were investigated and not charged, but also the justification 379 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:47,679 Speaker 2: for those decisions. Oral arguments are really fun, but the 380 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:51,840 Speaker 2: most rewarding thing is when the other lawyers arguing and 381 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 2: the judges are taking the stuff that you wrote in 382 00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:57,720 Speaker 2: your brief and they're using that material to pound your 383 00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:01,640 Speaker 2: opponent into the ground. And that's exactly what happened. They 384 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 2: completely understood our theory of how to look at all this. 385 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:07,159 Speaker 9: The public's need for understanding is really high. Here the 386 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:09,640 Speaker 9: president is saying it's a scam, and. 387 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 2: They just rampaged on this government lawyer who was evading 388 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:15,720 Speaker 2: their questions and just trying to like make the thing 389 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:16,240 Speaker 2: go away. 390 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:19,480 Speaker 1: A clear evid insury showing is required to establish government 391 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 1: misconduct for purposes are not. 392 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:27,159 Speaker 9: Talking about misconductor. This rationale it says the public is 393 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 9: entitled to understand. 394 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 4: And it didn't go away. 395 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 9: The individual has been identified, The facts with respect of 396 00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:34,920 Speaker 9: that individual are in. 397 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:37,359 Speaker 4: The public record. They just they really beat them up. 398 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 9: The only thing that's missing that you've redacted is the 399 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:43,560 Speaker 9: explanation for why the government took the position it took 400 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:44,199 Speaker 9: in the report. 401 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 2: And the outcome was because of our lawsuit, the public 402 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:51,639 Speaker 2: got to know why Muller didn't charge Donald Trump Junior 403 00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:55,640 Speaker 2: with any crabs because what got unredacted was the portions 404 00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:58,400 Speaker 2: that said we looked at Donald Trump Junior for sort 405 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:01,160 Speaker 2: of computer hacking type of crimes. 406 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:03,840 Speaker 1: Let's turn again to our friend Kyle Kanaane for the 407 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 1: exact wording from the report. 408 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:08,760 Speaker 5: The office considered whether Donald Trump Junior intentionally accessed a 409 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:12,760 Speaker 5: protected computer without authorization in violation of Title eighteen, United 410 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:15,840 Speaker 5: States Code, Section ten thirty, subsection eight, paragraph two, sub 411 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:16,399 Speaker 5: paragraph C. 412 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:18,160 Speaker 4: At subsection C, paragraph two, sub. 413 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:24,679 Speaker 5: Paragraph you get the point providing penalties for quote whoever 414 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:28,800 Speaker 5: intentionally access as a computer without authorization or exceeds authorized 415 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:32,400 Speaker 5: access and thereby obtains information from any protected computer. 416 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:34,160 Speaker 4: All right, mac continue. 417 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:38,320 Speaker 2: So they believed that they had sufficient evidence to charge 418 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:41,240 Speaker 2: him with a misdemeanor, but they decided in an exercise 419 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:44,320 Speaker 2: of discretion that they weren't going to charge him, and 420 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:47,119 Speaker 2: they decided not to charge him with the felony version 421 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 2: because they didn't know definitively that they could prove that 422 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:57,200 Speaker 2: the value of that information exceeded I think it was 423 00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:00,640 Speaker 2: a five thousand dollars threshold in order to argid as 424 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:01,720 Speaker 2: a felony. 425 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:03,960 Speaker 4: So what's your read on it? 426 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:07,240 Speaker 2: Then it showed me, and this is just my opinion 427 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:10,960 Speaker 2: that Mueller handled Trump World with kid gloves in the 428 00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:14,480 Speaker 2: course of this investigation and didn't go at them as 429 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:17,960 Speaker 2: hard as I think prosecutors often do in other cases. 430 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 1: But you know, I do think it's worth noting that 431 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 1: these things we were able to probably lose from the government. 432 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 1: Those reactions were originally agreed upon by Robert Muller's team 433 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 1: and Bill Barr's team, So this wasn't just Bill barrside 434 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:32,000 Speaker 1: trying to keep things secret. 435 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:35,359 Speaker 4: This was also mullerside trying to keep things secret. 436 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:39,800 Speaker 2: What's your takeaway there, Matt, These are institutionalists who are 437 00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:45,320 Speaker 2: primarily concerned with preserving the reputation and integrity of the 438 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:48,800 Speaker 2: institutions that they're working for, which is a different question 439 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:52,440 Speaker 2: from like serving the broader public interest of the United 440 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:55,399 Speaker 2: States of America. And that is why we have a 441 00:22:55,480 --> 00:23:00,640 Speaker 2: FOYA statute, because we know that that's what government officials 442 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:03,199 Speaker 2: are very often going to do. In fact, a lot 443 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:05,760 Speaker 2: of times they can't help themselves. I don't even know 444 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:07,439 Speaker 2: that I would be any better if I was in 445 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:09,480 Speaker 2: those shoes. But that's why we have to have a 446 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:13,320 Speaker 2: law that drags these documents out of them, because they 447 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:16,240 Speaker 2: don't want to be scrutinized. So the conclusion I would 448 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:19,240 Speaker 2: draw is that Muller didn't want to be scrutinized about 449 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 2: why he didn't charge Donald Trump Junior, which means there's 450 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 2: a good chance that's why it's actually been redacted. It's 451 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:28,959 Speaker 2: something they just don't want us to know because they 452 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:31,800 Speaker 2: don't want us to be able to scrutinize them and 453 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:34,720 Speaker 2: question their work and hold them accountable. But that is 454 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:37,520 Speaker 2: something that we as Americans deserve to know and have 455 00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,480 Speaker 2: a right to know. So this is a perfect example 456 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:43,960 Speaker 2: of like what FOYA does, why it's important, and what 457 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:44,679 Speaker 2: it can get you. 458 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:48,960 Speaker 1: These cases were to me the best example of how 459 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:53,360 Speaker 1: powerful FOYA is and keeping the public informed about what 460 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:57,119 Speaker 1: their government is up to and alerting the public to 461 00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 1: what was taking place behind the scenes, which was capped 462 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:04,679 Speaker 1: off by literally unredacting that section of the Mulla Report 463 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:07,280 Speaker 1: and seeing Donald Trump. 464 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:08,120 Speaker 4: Junior's name there. 465 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:12,119 Speaker 1: I mean, that was incredible, but I will say not 466 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:14,880 Speaker 1: as incredible as it could have been, which you'll hear 467 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:21,360 Speaker 1: all about after the break. So on the other side 468 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:22,880 Speaker 1: of the break you heard about some of the big 469 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:25,240 Speaker 1: wins and big news that came out of our attempts 470 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:28,000 Speaker 1: to get the Mullo Report unredacted. All in all, we 471 00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:30,840 Speaker 1: ended up filing five different lawsuits for information from the 472 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 1: Muller investigation. But God, Matt, do you remember the time 473 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 1: we thought we might just get every single thing we 474 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:41,200 Speaker 1: could have ever wanted from the Maller investigation, and then 475 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:46,119 Speaker 1: some mark meadows this was awesome. Here's what I remember. 476 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:48,720 Speaker 1: I remember that Trump tweeted. 477 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:51,600 Speaker 5: I have fully authorized the total declassification of any and 478 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:54,879 Speaker 5: all documents pertaining to the single greatest political crime in 479 00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:59,960 Speaker 5: American history, the Russia hoax. Likewise, the Hillary Clinton emails scandal, 480 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:04,479 Speaker 5: no reactions exclamation point October sixth, twenty twenty. 481 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 1: So I read that and immediately reached for my phone 482 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:12,639 Speaker 1: to call Matt, and I said, Matt, we have to 483 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:16,359 Speaker 1: file an emergency motion in court, and like, I mean, 484 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,120 Speaker 1: I know what an emergency emotion is, but the fact 485 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:21,920 Speaker 1: that that was that immediately popped into my head. 486 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:22,960 Speaker 4: I was like, we got to do this. Did you 487 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:26,040 Speaker 4: see what Trump tweeted? This relates to everything. 488 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:28,200 Speaker 1: That we are asking for because we are still battling 489 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:30,159 Speaker 1: the government in terms of trying to get some of 490 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:31,440 Speaker 1: these records released. 491 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:33,920 Speaker 4: Matt, do you recall that phone call in your response? 492 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:36,280 Speaker 2: I mean, I got really excited because I thought it 493 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:38,720 Speaker 2: was a great idea. There's all these records that are 494 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:41,720 Speaker 2: being with Hell's remos based on them being classified or 495 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:45,360 Speaker 2: for other exemption claims, and here the president, who has 496 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:49,359 Speaker 2: the authority to declassified documents, is saying that not only 497 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 2: are these declassified, he's saying he has already ordered them declassed. 498 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:57,399 Speaker 2: It was like a cry for help, and it was 499 00:25:57,480 --> 00:25:59,639 Speaker 2: like we were going to help him, Like this is 500 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 2: what he he wants all this stuff declassified and released, 501 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:05,960 Speaker 2: and the quote unquote deep State won't do it. Well, 502 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:09,359 Speaker 2: Like we'll help, right, Like we can help make that happen. 503 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:11,840 Speaker 4: I'm not even sure if it was a strategy at 504 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 4: that point. 505 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,919 Speaker 1: It was honestly wanted to get you know, I certainly 506 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:19,439 Speaker 1: just wanted to get these records, but I was also thinking, 507 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:23,000 Speaker 1: what could the response by the government ultimately be to this. 508 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, because even if you don't get records, you can 509 00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:28,679 Speaker 2: learn a lot from the response itself. They'll give you 510 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:33,520 Speaker 2: declarations and descriptions of records that lets you understand things 511 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:37,679 Speaker 2: like what's the volume of communication on this issue, who's involved, 512 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:41,000 Speaker 2: when were they involved? And sometimes those things are newsworthy 513 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:44,159 Speaker 2: even if you can't get all the details. So it 514 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:46,720 Speaker 2: was exciting and look like it was going to be 515 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:49,480 Speaker 2: great for the public, but also a lot of fun 516 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:52,719 Speaker 2: to make the government answer for this and say, the 517 00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:56,320 Speaker 2: president is saying these are declassified and you're not releasing them, 518 00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,520 Speaker 2: like explain yourself. And in terms of timing, we're like 519 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:03,360 Speaker 2: a month before the twenty twenty election. Russia hoax kind 520 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:05,560 Speaker 2: of language is all over the campaign. This is a 521 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:09,160 Speaker 2: huge campaign issue, and like we maybe have the opportunity 522 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:12,160 Speaker 2: to just blow open like a whole bunch of additional 523 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:16,439 Speaker 2: documents right before the election, because the president says that 524 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 2: he wants them all released. 525 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:21,920 Speaker 1: So follow this emergency motion and what's the process, Matt, 526 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:25,879 Speaker 1: you know, and an emergency motion? Right, so so because 527 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:27,239 Speaker 1: that's what those are the words I use. 528 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:29,920 Speaker 4: That was that right? Was it right? An emergency motion? 529 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:32,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, you called it the right thing. That tweet was 530 00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:37,399 Speaker 2: October sixth, and by October eighth, we file what's called 531 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:41,560 Speaker 2: emergency motion of plaintiffs for court order requiring defendants to 532 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:45,119 Speaker 2: reprocess the Muller Report before the November third, twenty twenty 533 00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:49,480 Speaker 2: presidential election in light of the president's recent declassification in weiver. 534 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 2: And then we spend just like two pages explaining what 535 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:56,639 Speaker 2: the case is about, in reminding the court that it 536 00:27:56,720 --> 00:28:00,680 Speaker 2: had repeatedly recognized the importance of these records to the 537 00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:04,680 Speaker 2: November twenty twenty election. And then we laid out the tweets, 538 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:07,520 Speaker 2: and we said, this should be pretty simple. It doesn't 539 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:12,359 Speaker 2: require any analysis, it doesn't require any consultation with anybody else. 540 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,920 Speaker 2: The President said to release this, he has the authority 541 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:19,320 Speaker 2: to release it. So order them to reprocess it, you know, 542 00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 2: we have to like sort of confer with the government, 543 00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:24,440 Speaker 2: and they indicated, not surprisingly, that they would oppose and 544 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:26,400 Speaker 2: that they didn't read the tweet the. 545 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:27,959 Speaker 4: Way we read the tweet. 546 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:30,840 Speaker 2: But we filed the motion, and then we're in court 547 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:34,480 Speaker 2: I think just a few days later. We have a 548 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:38,440 Speaker 2: zoom or a teleconference court hearing to argue all this, 549 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:40,920 Speaker 2: and the judge is asking the government. He's like, I'm 550 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:43,680 Speaker 2: looking at this like it looks to me like that 551 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:49,080 Speaker 2: might be what he's saying. And the government saying, no, no, no, no, 552 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:51,760 Speaker 2: that's not what he's saying. He's not saying he classes 553 00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 2: by anything. And the judge says, well, did you ask 554 00:28:56,080 --> 00:29:00,280 Speaker 2: him what he meant? And no, nobody actually asked him 555 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,720 Speaker 2: what he meant, So he orders them to go ask 556 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:07,280 Speaker 2: the president what he meant by this tweet. What we 557 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:11,560 Speaker 2: did force the government into actually getting an answer from 558 00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:14,800 Speaker 2: the President of the United States about whether he was 559 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:17,959 Speaker 2: intending to declassify all these records, because the judge was like, 560 00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:19,920 Speaker 2: you can't just come in here and see what you 561 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:22,080 Speaker 2: think he meant. You have no basis to know what 562 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 2: he meant. Go ask him what he meant. 563 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:26,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, essentially the first response by the government 564 00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:28,240 Speaker 1: was just ignore Trump's traits. 565 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:29,800 Speaker 4: He doesn't mean what he tweeted. 566 00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:35,120 Speaker 2: So we go into court. The judge says, no, Justice Department, 567 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 2: you don't just get to guess what he needs. And 568 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:42,120 Speaker 2: so the order says that the Justice Department within like 569 00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:47,760 Speaker 2: four days shall file a declaration by the President or 570 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 2: an individual who has conferred directly with the President regarding 571 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:55,160 Speaker 2: whether the President intended to order the declassification and release 572 00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:57,960 Speaker 2: without reaction of the report prepared by the special coultul 573 00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:00,440 Speaker 2: mull or blah blah blah blah blah. So the judge saying, 574 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,160 Speaker 2: I want a statement under oath by the President or 575 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:06,600 Speaker 2: somebody who directly talked with the President about whether he 576 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:10,840 Speaker 2: intended to declassifying. The task falls to Mark Meadows, who 577 00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 2: is chief of staff at the time. So he's got 578 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 2: to go to President Trump and asked, did you intend 579 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:21,800 Speaker 2: to declassify documents when you made this tweet? And Mark 580 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 2: Meadows puts under oath. 581 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:25,960 Speaker 4: And again our friend Kyle Kanane. 582 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 5: The President indicated to me that his statements on Twitter 583 00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:32,240 Speaker 5: were not self executing declassification orders and do not require 584 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:35,480 Speaker 5: the declassification or release of any particular documents. 585 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 2: Kind Of doubtful to me that the word self executing 586 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:42,840 Speaker 2: declassification order passed through the mouth of President Trump. Maybe 587 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 2: maybe it happened, I don't know. We don't know, Like 588 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:49,920 Speaker 2: that I would have loved to go another round and said, well, 589 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:52,960 Speaker 2: what do you mean indicated? What did he say? 590 00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:53,400 Speaker 4: Yeah? 591 00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:55,160 Speaker 2: Not? What did he indicate? 592 00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:55,840 Speaker 4: Yeah? 593 00:30:55,880 --> 00:31:00,000 Speaker 2: And did he really say the word self executing declassification order. 594 00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:03,040 Speaker 2: I think this is where we kind of reached the 595 00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:05,240 Speaker 2: point where, like, I think we're going to be pushing 596 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:08,880 Speaker 2: our luck if we're like, no, judge, go back again 597 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:12,240 Speaker 2: and make them, you know, make them ask more definitively. 598 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:12,640 Speaker 4: So. 599 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:16,640 Speaker 1: But at this point we knew, or at least I 600 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:19,760 Speaker 1: was thinking it that that Trump although he tweeted that, 601 00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:22,800 Speaker 1: and it was it seemed like, I don't know, some 602 00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:26,160 Speaker 1: red meat to his supporters perhaps, but I also knew 603 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:28,560 Speaker 1: that we're not going to see these records come out. 604 00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:31,760 Speaker 4: So at this point, like, this is what I wanted. 605 00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:37,160 Speaker 1: I wanted that declaration, that signed declaration where Mark meadows 606 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:40,000 Speaker 1: in his first paragraph. 607 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:42,040 Speaker 5: I am chief of staff to President Donald J. 608 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:42,600 Speaker 4: Trump. 609 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:46,280 Speaker 5: I conferred with the President concerning his attentions with respect 610 00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:48,160 Speaker 5: to two statements he made on Twitter. 611 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:52,000 Speaker 1: And I just I was happy that we got this declaration, 612 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:54,280 Speaker 1: and I think the headline, oh, yeah, here it is 613 00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:56,800 Speaker 1: Trump told his chief of staff he didn't mean what 614 00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:01,640 Speaker 1: he tweeted that was the headline, and that was true, 615 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:04,560 Speaker 1: and so those documents were never released. But that I 616 00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:07,280 Speaker 1: think that's also just a good example of how filing 617 00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:11,680 Speaker 1: itself becomes news in a FOYA case. God, that was fun, man, 618 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,320 Speaker 1: Remember that that was so much fun. We had a 619 00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:17,520 Speaker 1: blast just kind of marching in there been like hey, 620 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:18,760 Speaker 1: Mark Metal said it. 621 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:21,960 Speaker 2: Jason and I both have distrust of authority at times, 622 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:25,640 Speaker 2: So that's why this is fun. 623 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:27,720 Speaker 4: It's so true, that's what makes it fun. 624 00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:30,640 Speaker 1: But that healthy distrust of authority we have is also 625 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:33,440 Speaker 1: why we do what we do and why forcing the 626 00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:37,200 Speaker 1: government to abide by the Foya Statutes is so important. 627 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:41,720 Speaker 1: The government in America is accountable to American citizens. We 628 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:44,440 Speaker 1: don't have to accept whatever explanations they. 629 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:45,520 Speaker 4: Want to provide. 630 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:49,520 Speaker 1: They owe us this information, whether they want to give 631 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:55,840 Speaker 1: it to us or not. Coming up on the next 632 00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:59,080 Speaker 1: episode of Disclosure, how the hell was he duped by 633 00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:01,960 Speaker 1: Russian paranksters? This is Jerome Powell, He's the chairman of 634 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:02,240 Speaker 1: the FED. 635 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:03,520 Speaker 2: Did that actually happen? 636 00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:06,440 Speaker 4: We've even invited a few comedians to read the emails. 637 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:10,560 Speaker 2: Dear redacted, there will be only one winner who has 638 00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:13,160 Speaker 2: big gun. Could you please send us some Printy Press, 639 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:15,400 Speaker 2: the week in prime American dollars. 640 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:19,240 Speaker 4: From Bloomberg and No Smiling. This is Disclosure. 641 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:23,240 Speaker 1: The show is hosted by Matt Topic and me Jason Leopold. 642 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,880 Speaker 1: It's produced by Heather Schroering and Sean Cannon. For No Smiling, 643 00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:31,040 Speaker 1: our editor for Bloomberg is Jeff Grocott. Our executive producers 644 00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:35,160 Speaker 1: for Bloomberg are Sage Bauman and me Jason Leopold, and 645 00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:38,920 Speaker 1: our executive producers for No Smiling are Sean Cannon, Heather 646 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:43,560 Speaker 1: Schrowing and Matt Topic. The Disclosure theme song is by Nick, 647 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:48,600 Speaker 1: with additional music by Nick An Epidemic Sound sound design 648 00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:51,840 Speaker 1: and mixing is by Sean Cannon. Documents were read this 649 00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:56,120 Speaker 1: week by Kyle Kanaane. For more transparency news and important 650 00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:59,400 Speaker 1: document dumps, you can subscribe to my weekly Foier Files 651 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:05,400 Speaker 1: newsletter at Bloomberg dot com slash Foya Files That's Foia Files. 652 00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:09,320 Speaker 1: To get every episode early on Apple Podcasts. Become a 653 00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:13,120 Speaker 1: Bloomberg dot com subscriber today. Check out our special intro 654 00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:16,960 Speaker 1: offer right now at Bloomberg dot com Slash podcast offer, 655 00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:19,520 Speaker 1: or click the link in the show notes. You'll also 656 00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:23,960 Speaker 1: unlock deep reporting data and analysis from reporters around the world. 657 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:26,000 Speaker 4: We'll see you again next Tuesday.