1 00:00:06,790 --> 00:00:09,050 Speaker 1: Amy Robach and TJ Holmes present. 2 00:00:09,110 --> 00:00:11,750 Speaker 2: Killer Thriller with your host, Elisa Donovan. 3 00:00:15,230 --> 00:00:18,550 Speaker 1: Hey, everybody. Elisa Donovan here, and this is Killer Thriller. 4 00:00:19,310 --> 00:00:23,860 Speaker 1: In 1989, Lyle and Eric Menendez shot and killed their parents, 5 00:00:24,180 --> 00:00:28,620 Speaker 1: Jose and Kitty, inside their Beverly Hills home. Prosecutors said 6 00:00:28,660 --> 00:00:31,820 Speaker 1: they killed for money. The brothers said years of abuse 7 00:00:31,980 --> 00:00:35,460 Speaker 1: left them fearing for their lives. Caught in the middle 8 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:39,930 Speaker 1: was Jose's sister, Marta Cano, an aunt who ultimately testified 9 00:00:40,010 --> 00:00:42,950 Speaker 1: for the nephews who killed her brother and remained one 10 00:00:42,970 --> 00:00:49,370 Speaker 1: of their strongest supporters. Marlene Forte plays Marta in Netflix's Monsters, 11 00:00:49,450 --> 00:00:53,019 Speaker 1: the Lyle and Eric Menendez story. She joins us today 12 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:57,000 Speaker 1: to talk about stepping into this extraordinary family story and 13 00:00:57,060 --> 00:00:59,980 Speaker 1: what she discovered about one of the most complicated figures 14 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:01,220 Speaker 1: in the Menendez case. 15 00:01:02,110 --> 00:01:02,830 Speaker 2: Hi, Marlene. 16 00:01:02,870 --> 00:01:05,390 Speaker 1: Welcome to Killer Thriller. Thank you so much for talking 17 00:01:05,410 --> 00:01:06,050 Speaker 1: with me today. 18 00:01:06,069 --> 00:01:07,390 Speaker 2: Well, thank you for inviting me. 19 00:01:07,730 --> 00:01:09,910 Speaker 1: It's a pleasure to meet you. I'm a big fan 20 00:01:09,950 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 1: of your work and many things, but today we are 21 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:19,820 Speaker 1: going to talk about Monsters, the Menendez story, which I 22 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:22,780 Speaker 1: think we can all agree is really just one of 23 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:26,899 Speaker 1: the most upsetting cases in a multitude of ways. And 24 00:01:28,170 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 1: before you got the role in this series, how much 25 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:34,740 Speaker 1: did you actually know about the Menendez brothers and the case? 26 00:01:35,660 --> 00:01:39,320 Speaker 2: Well, I'm Cuban. So I knew about it. I didn't 27 00:01:39,819 --> 00:01:42,220 Speaker 2: follow it. I didn't do any of that stuff, but 28 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:47,400 Speaker 2: I knew of it. And that's what you said. It's 29 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:50,540 Speaker 2: so sad. People are like, how was it working on monsters? 30 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:56,630 Speaker 3: I'm like horribly sad is in this courtroom read, just 31 00:01:57,050 --> 00:02:01,139 Speaker 3: listening to these horrible stories. 32 00:02:01,390 --> 00:02:05,300 Speaker 2: But the most fascinating thing for me was when I 33 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:08,440 Speaker 2: started to look into it, because everything is on YouTube, 34 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:11,600 Speaker 2: the whole court thing, everything is on YouTube, right? So 35 00:02:11,620 --> 00:02:15,960 Speaker 2: I was able to actually see Martha's testimony. I think 36 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:21,829 Speaker 2: it was like, beginning of Court TV. So it just 37 00:02:21,930 --> 00:02:24,890 Speaker 2: went viral, you know, and it was almost impossible not 38 00:02:24,930 --> 00:02:27,970 Speaker 2: to know about it while it was happening. I never 39 00:02:28,050 --> 00:02:32,410 Speaker 2: thought I'd be working on a project about it back then. 40 00:02:33,450 --> 00:02:37,540 Speaker 1: Was there anything that you learned about the real case 41 00:02:37,620 --> 00:02:42,060 Speaker 1: that genuinely surprised you? I mean, probably maybe a million things, but... 42 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:46,500 Speaker 1: anything specific that you went, wow, I really can't believe this. 43 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:49,640 Speaker 2: I think, I think the hardest thing for me going 44 00:02:49,700 --> 00:02:53,530 Speaker 2: through the court, again, I never met Martha. Martha is 45 00:02:53,570 --> 00:02:59,150 Speaker 2: still alive. I believe she's in her eighties now. But, and, 46 00:02:59,330 --> 00:03:03,389 Speaker 2: and I, they didn't encourage us at least, you know, the, 47 00:03:03,510 --> 00:03:07,020 Speaker 2: the supporting cast to, to go out. And I, I, 48 00:03:07,700 --> 00:03:09,910 Speaker 2: I really didn't want to. There was enough online for 49 00:03:09,950 --> 00:03:12,290 Speaker 2: me to get a sense of who she was. And 50 00:03:12,350 --> 00:03:15,889 Speaker 2: I really just wanted to kind of convey her. But 51 00:03:15,930 --> 00:03:18,950 Speaker 2: for me, the thing that I learned, the hardest thing 52 00:03:18,990 --> 00:03:23,470 Speaker 2: to learn was that I, the complicit, when somebody is 53 00:03:23,500 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 2: complicit in a crime by being quiet. By being silent. Yep. 54 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:33,419 Speaker 2: And because it's family and because it's, and to stay 55 00:03:33,620 --> 00:03:37,870 Speaker 2: silent or to allow it to continue because it's, oh, 56 00:03:37,910 --> 00:03:41,270 Speaker 2: that's how Cuban macho men are or whatever, whatever reason 57 00:03:41,310 --> 00:03:47,810 Speaker 2: that you justify your complicitness, you know? So I think 58 00:03:47,830 --> 00:03:50,790 Speaker 2: for me, that was the hardest thing. And just to 59 00:03:50,830 --> 00:03:53,070 Speaker 2: say straight out, I'm not a court lawyer and I 60 00:03:53,130 --> 00:03:55,430 Speaker 2: wasn't at the courtroom, but I do believe that they 61 00:03:55,470 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 2: were abused. I think that there was a lot of, 62 00:03:59,070 --> 00:04:01,130 Speaker 2: a lot of issues in that family. 63 00:04:01,510 --> 00:04:02,250 Speaker 1: Yes. 64 00:04:03,110 --> 00:04:07,190 Speaker 2: And I do believe that Martha, if she didn't know, 65 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:13,030 Speaker 2: she sure as hell had an inkling. And the, for 66 00:04:13,050 --> 00:04:19,690 Speaker 2: me watching her, there was this sadness, this weight and 67 00:04:19,850 --> 00:04:21,030 Speaker 2: sadness to her. 68 00:04:21,890 --> 00:04:25,390 Speaker 1: Yes. I totally agree. I watched some of it last 69 00:04:25,450 --> 00:04:30,119 Speaker 1: night and I just thought there's at once this simultaneous 70 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 1: enormous bravery on her part. To be, to serve for 71 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:39,340 Speaker 1: the defense, but also you just feel there is this 72 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:43,219 Speaker 1: world of things that she's not saying. 73 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:43,900 Speaker 2: Yeah. 74 00:04:44,060 --> 00:04:47,730 Speaker 1: And I think that's an extraordinarily difficult position to be in. 75 00:04:47,830 --> 00:04:50,550 Speaker 1: It's like she's called upon to be what the person, 76 00:04:50,570 --> 00:04:52,250 Speaker 1: the only person in, you know, in the history of 77 00:04:52,290 --> 00:04:55,070 Speaker 1: the family that's going to speak out. Like it's just 78 00:04:55,130 --> 00:04:55,630 Speaker 1: a lot. 79 00:04:56,190 --> 00:04:58,230 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 80 00:04:58,470 --> 00:05:02,030 Speaker 1: And so she's such an interesting person to enter the 81 00:05:02,070 --> 00:05:04,990 Speaker 1: story through for all of these reasons, because Jose was 82 00:05:05,050 --> 00:05:08,550 Speaker 1: her brother and Lyle and Eric were her nephews. And 83 00:05:09,350 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 1: she was the first witness to be called by the defense. 84 00:05:12,940 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 1: And so what did you make of that? The fact 85 00:05:15,940 --> 00:05:18,979 Speaker 1: that his own sister was on the boy's side from 86 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:19,500 Speaker 1: the beginning. 87 00:05:20,580 --> 00:05:22,659 Speaker 2: That's why I think they did. That's why I think 88 00:05:22,700 --> 00:05:26,400 Speaker 2: he's guilty. That's why I think he's guilty because, you know, 89 00:05:26,420 --> 00:05:28,599 Speaker 2: my mom and dad had, my mom and her brother 90 00:05:28,660 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 2: had a very interesting relationship. My uncle, may he rest 91 00:05:33,140 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 2: in peace, was a very difficult man and had a 92 00:05:37,580 --> 00:05:40,520 Speaker 2: lot of issues, violence, you know, a lot of stuff. 93 00:05:42,260 --> 00:05:50,489 Speaker 2: And my mother would never go against him. So, I 94 00:05:50,550 --> 00:05:52,530 Speaker 2: always wondered what was the bottom line? You know, there's 95 00:05:52,570 --> 00:05:54,890 Speaker 2: always a line in the sand, right? At what point 96 00:05:54,930 --> 00:05:58,190 Speaker 2: does your line, do the person that you're allowing to 97 00:05:59,010 --> 00:06:01,729 Speaker 2: exist or whatever, be complicit or whatever, what time does, 98 00:06:02,029 --> 00:06:06,390 Speaker 2: where does that line cross? And I think, you know, 99 00:06:06,450 --> 00:06:10,020 Speaker 2: the fact that, that I think there's so much guilt 100 00:06:10,060 --> 00:06:12,260 Speaker 2: in her, the fact that they got to that point 101 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:16,450 Speaker 2: and us knowing that, I'm not sure Martha's been abused. 102 00:06:16,610 --> 00:06:19,690 Speaker 2: I decided that she was not. I decided she was 103 00:06:19,750 --> 00:06:23,950 Speaker 2: spared from that just for my own psyche of being 104 00:06:24,010 --> 00:06:28,420 Speaker 2: able to have the courage. But I think that she 105 00:06:28,620 --> 00:06:32,720 Speaker 2: witnessed a lot of stuff and stayed silent. And I 106 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 2: think that happens so much. It happens so much in 107 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:41,140 Speaker 2: situations like this because she's stuck between her brother and 108 00:06:41,850 --> 00:06:43,890 Speaker 2: I remember when I was working, I was like, what 109 00:06:43,950 --> 00:06:46,409 Speaker 2: would it have taken for my mother to turn on 110 00:06:46,450 --> 00:06:48,930 Speaker 2: my brother, right? What does it take? 111 00:06:49,510 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 3: Eight. 112 00:06:50,710 --> 00:06:53,920 Speaker 2: First of all, he's dead. Gives you a lot more courage. 113 00:06:53,980 --> 00:06:55,820 Speaker 2: If he was alive, I'm not sure she would have 114 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:57,479 Speaker 2: ever had the courage. 115 00:06:57,779 --> 00:06:58,360 Speaker 3: I don't know. 116 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:02,280 Speaker 1: That's such a good point. I didn't actually think about that. 117 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 1: But that is a really specific, important point. 118 00:07:06,260 --> 00:07:10,690 Speaker 2: He's gone. So she's free to be at least, if not. 119 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 2: And I don't think she ever, I would like to 120 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 2: believe she never actually physically saw anything, but it's those 121 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:23,850 Speaker 2: little nuggets that are dropped that you look and you go, huh, 122 00:07:24,430 --> 00:07:28,050 Speaker 2: that's not right. You shouldn't do that. And they did try. 123 00:07:28,070 --> 00:07:30,710 Speaker 2: I think her and her husband did try. I mean, 124 00:07:30,750 --> 00:07:33,290 Speaker 2: even in the movie, there's a scene where, I don't 125 00:07:34,470 --> 00:07:35,890 Speaker 2: know if that ended up in the movie, but I 126 00:07:35,940 --> 00:07:42,610 Speaker 2: remember reading in the movie, in the series, that My 127 00:07:42,650 --> 00:07:44,490 Speaker 2: husband tries to say, hey, that's a little bit much, 128 00:07:44,650 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 2: you know, and they throw us out of the house. Right, right. 129 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 1: And at the very least, yeah, when he's dead, she 130 00:07:53,380 --> 00:07:58,200 Speaker 1: at least is no longer perhaps afraid of any kind 131 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:02,570 Speaker 1: of physical ramifications. Yeah. And the mother, too. 132 00:08:02,610 --> 00:08:07,390 Speaker 2: You know, the grandma was abused, according to the series, right? Now, 133 00:08:09,070 --> 00:08:15,820 Speaker 2: I don't know how much... Ryan used to dramatic liberties 134 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 2: and all that stuff because these things are always not factual. 135 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:25,180 Speaker 2: They are not documentaries. This is not a documentary. There's 136 00:08:25,220 --> 00:08:33,260 Speaker 2: documentaries out there, but human nature. Human nature, it's the 137 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:36,300 Speaker 2: most interesting thing I do about my career is what 138 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:41,839 Speaker 2: compels a person to do or not do something that 139 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:44,860 Speaker 2: you know you should be doing or not doing. 140 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:48,740 Speaker 1: And the kind of compilation of things, right? Things can 141 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:55,110 Speaker 1: get progressively worse or you can become progressively immune just 142 00:08:55,230 --> 00:08:59,290 Speaker 1: because we've tried to survive or it is too painful. 143 00:08:59,570 --> 00:09:03,290 Speaker 2: Your survival instincts kick in. It's too painful. It's too 144 00:09:05,470 --> 00:09:08,370 Speaker 2: You know, there's so many reasons to justify. I mean, 145 00:09:08,390 --> 00:09:10,170 Speaker 2: that's my job. I justify things. 146 00:09:10,750 --> 00:09:11,929 Speaker 1: Yeah. 147 00:09:12,250 --> 00:09:14,189 Speaker 2: Why would a person do this? I must justify. 148 00:09:15,150 --> 00:09:17,670 Speaker 1: I mean, but this is also in this whole podcast, 149 00:09:17,710 --> 00:09:19,860 Speaker 1: you know, we, I say this all the time. We're 150 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:26,219 Speaker 1: in most cases talking about the worst moments of people's lives. Right. 151 00:09:26,540 --> 00:09:29,660 Speaker 1: And why do we do that? Well, it's not to 152 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:34,260 Speaker 1: exploit them. It's to understand them. human nature because the 153 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:36,860 Speaker 1: reality is these are human beings who have done these 154 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:39,900 Speaker 1: things and they're human beings that have been the recipients 155 00:09:40,090 --> 00:09:46,670 Speaker 1: of this just horrific behavior and you know both sides 156 00:09:46,710 --> 00:09:49,890 Speaker 1: of that are so important like how do we continue 157 00:09:50,970 --> 00:09:52,630 Speaker 1: how does one get to a place to do something 158 00:09:52,670 --> 00:09:55,790 Speaker 1: like that and then how does one survive and recover you. 159 00:09:55,730 --> 00:09:59,930 Speaker 2: Know and how does one learn to try not to, 160 00:10:00,370 --> 00:10:04,150 Speaker 2: but look, it's human nature. Humans are capable of wonderful, 161 00:10:04,230 --> 00:10:07,550 Speaker 2: beautiful things and horrific, horrible things. That is the one, 162 00:10:07,630 --> 00:10:10,220 Speaker 2: if you believe in religious or somebody above or whatever 163 00:10:10,260 --> 00:10:13,579 Speaker 2: it is, that is the really, the only thing that 164 00:10:14,500 --> 00:10:19,490 Speaker 2: the universe gave us was choice, right? So now, How 165 00:10:19,530 --> 00:10:24,270 Speaker 2: does even Dahmer, like the most worst, you know, I 166 00:10:24,309 --> 00:10:26,309 Speaker 2: was listening to some of your podcasts and it's just, 167 00:10:26,470 --> 00:10:30,970 Speaker 2: it is people at their worst. And what, where do 168 00:10:31,010 --> 00:10:33,199 Speaker 2: you cross that line? Right. At what point do you 169 00:10:33,220 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 2: cross the line on the sand? And now you're, you're 170 00:10:34,940 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 2: on the other side, you've crossed it, you know, you're 171 00:10:39,420 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 2: still a human being, but you've crossed that line. 172 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:46,660 Speaker 1: And then how is it even possible to go back 173 00:10:46,780 --> 00:10:50,449 Speaker 1: to cross back? And I don't, I don't know. I 174 00:10:50,490 --> 00:10:52,450 Speaker 1: don't know at what time it's. 175 00:10:52,550 --> 00:10:54,850 Speaker 2: And then the other thing is hurt people, hurt people, right? 176 00:10:54,890 --> 00:10:59,350 Speaker 2: That is monsters. You know, the other wonderful thing about 177 00:10:59,390 --> 00:11:02,450 Speaker 2: this series is who's the monster, right? As you're watching, 178 00:11:03,230 --> 00:11:07,090 Speaker 2: as you're watching these things that Ryan Murphy has created. 179 00:11:07,870 --> 00:11:11,130 Speaker 2: And even when you listen to your podcasts, it's like, well, 180 00:11:12,410 --> 00:11:15,610 Speaker 2: you know, what, what drives a mom to kill her children? 181 00:11:16,070 --> 00:11:18,100 Speaker 2: I mean, we can go back to Medea. There are, 182 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:22,020 Speaker 2: there are, it is not new. You have been doing 183 00:11:22,059 --> 00:11:27,090 Speaker 2: horrendous things for a long time. So that is the 184 00:11:27,150 --> 00:11:32,550 Speaker 2: power that we have. Right. So it's, it's it's fascinating 185 00:11:32,630 --> 00:11:35,809 Speaker 2: to know what goes on in people's brains. And for 186 00:11:35,830 --> 00:11:38,290 Speaker 2: me as an actor, that's the most interesting thing from, 187 00:11:38,630 --> 00:11:40,429 Speaker 2: for my job. Right. 188 00:11:40,790 --> 00:11:41,390 Speaker 1: For sure. 189 00:11:41,590 --> 00:11:44,790 Speaker 2: To be able to say, you know, And people always say, 190 00:11:44,820 --> 00:11:46,340 Speaker 2: how do you get into that character? I said, well, 191 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:53,520 Speaker 2: I start with, what would Marlene do? Right? What would 192 00:11:53,580 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 2: take it? What would happen? What would need to happen 193 00:11:56,720 --> 00:11:59,979 Speaker 2: for Marlene, me, who I am the human translating this, 194 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:04,820 Speaker 2: to get to that, crossing that line, right? To get 195 00:12:04,940 --> 00:12:08,700 Speaker 2: to that. And justify. Because you have to live with that. 196 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:11,050 Speaker 2: So you must justify it somehow in your brain. Yep. 197 00:12:25,090 --> 00:12:29,950 Speaker 1: And so Marta testified that Jose viewed Eric as quote, 198 00:12:29,970 --> 00:12:33,430 Speaker 1: too soft and too tender while seeing Lyle as someone 199 00:12:33,450 --> 00:12:36,250 Speaker 1: that he can mold in his own image. Did, did 200 00:12:36,309 --> 00:12:38,990 Speaker 1: that help you to understand the family dynamic that the 201 00:12:39,030 --> 00:12:40,450 Speaker 1: series was trying to portray? 202 00:12:40,870 --> 00:12:46,770 Speaker 2: Well, also Latin, you know, and weakness is not allowed 203 00:12:46,970 --> 00:12:51,400 Speaker 2: in men, you know, and, you know, there was the 204 00:12:51,420 --> 00:12:57,310 Speaker 2: whole sexuality thing. Um, hate what you are, you know, um, 205 00:12:58,510 --> 00:13:01,100 Speaker 2: despise what you feel, you know, cause somebody makes you 206 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:04,819 Speaker 2: feel something inside you. So it, to me, that was 207 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:09,330 Speaker 2: easy to, to get to because again, I see it 208 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:11,810 Speaker 2: in my, I, I am, I was born in Cuba. 209 00:13:11,830 --> 00:13:16,309 Speaker 2: I am very close to the old world, you know, and, 210 00:13:16,570 --> 00:13:21,150 Speaker 2: and it's easy. Again, it's part of the justification. Yeah. Amen. Amen. 211 00:13:22,090 --> 00:13:27,550 Speaker 2: And not that I think Martha condoned it, but the 212 00:13:27,610 --> 00:13:31,650 Speaker 2: silence is condoning. Right. 213 00:13:31,890 --> 00:13:36,530 Speaker 1: That must have been an extraordinary experience to be inhabiting 214 00:13:36,570 --> 00:13:42,650 Speaker 1: this character and having such a personal understanding of dynamics 215 00:13:43,010 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 1: and kind of that sort of cultural aspect. That's incredible. Yeah. 216 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was. And, you know, we worked. I was 217 00:13:51,179 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 2: hired to do three episodes, which is where Martha testifies 218 00:13:54,540 --> 00:13:56,540 Speaker 2: and all the other stuff. That was the original contract. 219 00:13:56,580 --> 00:13:59,700 Speaker 2: It was just a recurring three episodes. And then as 220 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:04,720 Speaker 2: we got into it, the directors realized Paris was like, 221 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:09,740 Speaker 2: they got to be in the courtroom. So now I'm 222 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:14,979 Speaker 2: sitting in these other three episodes just absorbing, absorbing what's 223 00:14:15,020 --> 00:14:18,650 Speaker 2: coming at me. I was having PTSD, man. I was like, 224 00:14:18,690 --> 00:14:22,020 Speaker 2: Whirly World saved my brain. Because every time they went cut, 225 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:23,500 Speaker 2: I was like, I'm going into Whirly World. 226 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:24,440 Speaker 1: Right. 227 00:14:26,100 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 2: Right. I'm leaving this space now for a little bit, 228 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:32,100 Speaker 2: even if it's just five minutes. It was really, and 229 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:34,390 Speaker 2: they were long days. So we're just sitting there. And 230 00:14:34,470 --> 00:14:37,990 Speaker 2: it was literally like being in court and having this 231 00:14:38,110 --> 00:14:45,580 Speaker 2: just bombardment of information. Sad, sad information. Sad people. 232 00:14:46,030 --> 00:14:46,550 Speaker 1: Yes. 233 00:14:47,770 --> 00:14:49,850 Speaker 2: It's not just the family. It's just the people that 234 00:14:49,870 --> 00:14:50,650 Speaker 2: were testifying. 235 00:14:50,670 --> 00:14:51,950 Speaker 1: You're just like, oh, my God. 236 00:14:52,530 --> 00:14:53,110 Speaker 2: Yes. 237 00:14:53,470 --> 00:14:56,250 Speaker 1: I mean, that's what's so partly fascinating about this case 238 00:14:56,270 --> 00:15:00,530 Speaker 1: is how many relatives eventually testified about things that they 239 00:15:00,620 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 1: had witnessed or been told. 240 00:15:02,860 --> 00:15:05,770 Speaker 2: Yeah. Years and years of it. Years and years of it. 241 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:08,740 Speaker 1: Did you realize that before doing the series? No. 242 00:15:09,420 --> 00:15:12,080 Speaker 2: No. No. I just I didn't. 243 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 1: I didn't. 244 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:16,000 Speaker 2: I didn't really, I followed it because again, you'd have 245 00:15:16,020 --> 00:15:18,500 Speaker 2: to be under, it was the court TV thing and 246 00:15:18,540 --> 00:15:22,150 Speaker 2: it was fascinating. I was also a young single mom 247 00:15:22,190 --> 00:15:22,890 Speaker 2: at that time. 248 00:15:23,570 --> 00:15:26,670 Speaker 1: So I was like, yeah, I just can't, I. 249 00:15:26,690 --> 00:15:28,430 Speaker 2: Can't go there right now. I can't even go to 250 00:15:28,470 --> 00:15:30,570 Speaker 2: that thing. So I was aware of what was happening. 251 00:15:30,610 --> 00:15:33,360 Speaker 2: I was aware that they got, you know, the courts 252 00:15:33,380 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 2: were happening, but I, but it wasn't until I booked 253 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 2: the job that I started to really just investigate and 254 00:15:39,860 --> 00:15:43,180 Speaker 2: then just see all this, there's so much information, which 255 00:15:43,260 --> 00:15:48,260 Speaker 2: is a blessing when you're recreating something. Right. Cause now 256 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 2: with the world that we live in now, it's, you know, 257 00:15:50,540 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 2: I mean, I'm old enough where I was like, man, 258 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:59,160 Speaker 2: I haven't seen that show. I want to rerun. Yes. Yes. 259 00:15:59,540 --> 00:16:01,410 Speaker 1: Or people used to say like, Oh, why weren't you 260 00:16:01,450 --> 00:16:03,650 Speaker 1: watching such and such when you were to, I'm like, well, 261 00:16:03,770 --> 00:16:06,890 Speaker 1: I was working shooting my own show. And then if 262 00:16:06,910 --> 00:16:09,270 Speaker 1: you missed it, you missed it. Like it was over. 263 00:16:09,710 --> 00:16:12,830 Speaker 2: It wasn't, it wasn't accessible though. The, the enormous amount 264 00:16:12,870 --> 00:16:16,290 Speaker 2: of accessibility that we have now, which is, it's really great. 265 00:16:16,820 --> 00:16:19,500 Speaker 2: It's also. Yeah. 266 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:27,140 Speaker 1: I distinctly remember because I moved to LA in 1993, 94, 93. 267 00:16:27,140 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 1: So right at the time, right after OJ, the, the 268 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:32,180 Speaker 1: chase and all of this was kind of the same 269 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:35,100 Speaker 1: time in this beginning of birthing of watching. 270 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:37,580 Speaker 2: And I had just moved out here too, you know, 271 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:39,600 Speaker 2: but what year was that? 272 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:43,979 Speaker 1: The, the, The Bronco chase. Cause I covered this too. 273 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:49,100 Speaker 1: I should know. It was 1994. 274 00:16:49,100 --> 00:16:51,920 Speaker 2: Okay. So I wasn't living out here yet, but I 275 00:16:51,980 --> 00:16:54,810 Speaker 2: was out here cause I remember seeing it here, but 276 00:16:54,830 --> 00:16:56,670 Speaker 2: I didn't move out till 99, but I was coming 277 00:16:56,710 --> 00:16:58,490 Speaker 2: back and forth a lot. So I was out here 278 00:16:58,530 --> 00:17:02,970 Speaker 2: when that happened too. Um, yeah, it's just, it's fascinating 279 00:17:02,990 --> 00:17:06,360 Speaker 2: to have the access accessibility of things now is, you know. 280 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:11,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, it really is. And, um, So there's a fascinating 281 00:17:12,020 --> 00:17:16,160 Speaker 1: contradiction in Marta's own story where she acknowledged at trial 282 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:19,119 Speaker 1: that after the murders, she hadn't told police about the 283 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:22,290 Speaker 1: mistreatment that she later described in court because she wanted 284 00:17:22,330 --> 00:17:25,430 Speaker 1: to protect the family's image. So do you think that 285 00:17:25,510 --> 00:17:29,290 Speaker 1: pressure to maintain the image of a successful close family 286 00:17:29,369 --> 00:17:30,969 Speaker 1: is an important part of the story? 287 00:17:30,990 --> 00:17:33,810 Speaker 2: Oh, it's part of a. 288 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:35,820 Speaker 1: Lot. 289 00:17:35,890 --> 00:17:37,900 Speaker 2: I think about a lot of this type of stuff 290 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:41,500 Speaker 2: that goes on. That gets swept under the rug, especially 291 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:49,359 Speaker 2: people that have a certain status, right? Accessibility to hide things, 292 00:17:50,100 --> 00:17:53,940 Speaker 2: you know, just the accessibility of I'm a very successful 293 00:17:53,980 --> 00:17:56,500 Speaker 2: business person and I bring you a lot of money. 294 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:01,480 Speaker 2: So just shut up and take my money. Right? It 295 00:18:01,500 --> 00:18:03,740 Speaker 2: doesn't matter that I just slapped my kid in front 296 00:18:03,780 --> 00:18:06,700 Speaker 2: of you. You know, just shut up and take my money. 297 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:09,770 Speaker 2: Do you want to do business with me? And that 298 00:18:10,710 --> 00:18:11,530 Speaker 2: still happens. 299 00:18:11,630 --> 00:18:15,169 Speaker 1: Still happens. I was just going to say, we are 300 00:18:15,290 --> 00:18:19,320 Speaker 1: seeing that all the time. All the time. 301 00:18:19,380 --> 00:18:22,979 Speaker 2: Take the knee, man. That's what made this character for 302 00:18:23,020 --> 00:18:26,800 Speaker 2: me so, and even easy to sit there when I 303 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:29,010 Speaker 2: didn't have anything to say, because there's a lot of 304 00:18:29,510 --> 00:18:33,129 Speaker 2: me just like in pain, a lot of stuff to 305 00:18:33,170 --> 00:18:37,290 Speaker 2: me in pain. And other members of the family, because- 306 00:18:40,030 --> 00:18:42,710 Speaker 2: You just start to realize, and then imagine you start 307 00:18:42,750 --> 00:18:46,580 Speaker 2: to think back. What if I had, what if I 308 00:18:46,619 --> 00:18:48,780 Speaker 2: had just been a little harder? What if I had 309 00:18:48,900 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 2: just said something? What if I hadn't said, no, I'm 310 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:57,280 Speaker 2: not leaving your house that night. This is not acceptable. 311 00:18:57,320 --> 00:18:59,679 Speaker 2: And if you don't stop it, I'm going to say something. 312 00:19:01,070 --> 00:19:02,390 Speaker 2: You could speak to your brother like that. 313 00:19:03,310 --> 00:19:03,590 Speaker 3: Right. 314 00:19:04,030 --> 00:19:07,810 Speaker 2: You know, I speak to my sisters like that, you know, so, 315 00:19:08,550 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 2: but you don't, Because he's the head. 316 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:16,820 Speaker 1: And he certainly, you know, so much has changed about 317 00:19:16,859 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 1: this case in our understanding. And he was charming. 318 00:19:19,700 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 2: He was charming. Right. That is one thing Cubans are. 319 00:19:22,619 --> 00:19:29,090 Speaker 2: We are charming motherfuckers. We are. Cuban men? Yep. I mean, 320 00:19:29,170 --> 00:19:32,470 Speaker 2: come on. Cuban men, Dominican men, and Puerto Rican men. 321 00:19:33,210 --> 00:19:34,750 Speaker 2: Forget about it. Yep. 322 00:19:34,990 --> 00:19:38,389 Speaker 1: You're in trouble. That's how I learned to salsa dance, 323 00:19:38,410 --> 00:19:39,070 Speaker 1: a Cuban. 324 00:19:39,310 --> 00:19:45,780 Speaker 2: Yep. So the charm, the money, all of it helped 325 00:19:45,940 --> 00:19:51,740 Speaker 2: to shield, right? Yes. everybody shields because the whole family 326 00:19:51,780 --> 00:19:55,060 Speaker 2: is working with, with this company and the whole, you know, 327 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:58,399 Speaker 2: and you learn to put on your big pants and 328 00:19:58,980 --> 00:20:00,290 Speaker 2: grow out of it. 329 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:03,129 Speaker 1: They'll, you know, it really, the series does such an 330 00:20:03,170 --> 00:20:06,970 Speaker 1: amazing job of that, of really showing because Javier Bardem is, 331 00:20:07,830 --> 00:20:11,909 Speaker 1: so terrific and that kind of like he has created 332 00:20:11,930 --> 00:20:15,090 Speaker 1: the reality that this family will exist in like it's 333 00:20:15,210 --> 00:20:19,010 Speaker 1: his own of his own making and everyone is get 334 00:20:19,090 --> 00:20:23,870 Speaker 1: on board and he normalizes all of these horrific things 335 00:20:23,890 --> 00:20:27,810 Speaker 1: yes and then you just go how i'm i find 336 00:20:27,850 --> 00:20:32,310 Speaker 1: it so interesting that we it's taken sort of all 337 00:20:32,330 --> 00:20:37,949 Speaker 1: of these years for us culturally to understand that the 338 00:20:38,050 --> 00:20:41,770 Speaker 1: abuse had such an impact on these children. Like that 339 00:20:43,250 --> 00:20:47,890 Speaker 1: the public narrative has changed so much now where they really, 340 00:20:49,210 --> 00:20:53,140 Speaker 1: you know, we can understand how someone would come to, 341 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:57,139 Speaker 1: I mean, I can. It doesn't excuse things, but it 342 00:20:57,420 --> 00:20:59,140 Speaker 1: certainly explains them. 343 00:21:00,540 --> 00:21:04,060 Speaker 2: Yeah. It doesn't excuse it, but you understand. And again, 344 00:21:04,980 --> 00:21:08,729 Speaker 2: the humanity of it, right? Mm-hmm. The series is called Monsters, 345 00:21:08,850 --> 00:21:13,790 Speaker 2: but yes, us as humans, we can be monsters. We 346 00:21:13,810 --> 00:21:18,129 Speaker 2: can be angels. And those are the two extremes. And 347 00:21:18,190 --> 00:21:21,410 Speaker 2: hopefully we live somewhere in the middle, right? We never 348 00:21:21,450 --> 00:21:27,870 Speaker 2: get to that point. But when something is chronic, it's 349 00:21:28,310 --> 00:21:32,340 Speaker 2: all throughout the life. It's why do women stay in 350 00:21:32,450 --> 00:21:35,460 Speaker 2: relationships for so long? Why do well, a lot of 351 00:21:35,500 --> 00:21:38,060 Speaker 2: these women were young when they got into the relationships 352 00:21:38,100 --> 00:21:42,140 Speaker 2: and then they just, you become, we're also creatures of habit, 353 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:45,280 Speaker 2: the human, right? So we just, this is what we understand. 354 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:47,740 Speaker 2: This is what we feel comfortable in. Why do women 355 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:50,120 Speaker 2: keep picking or men keep, why do you, why do 356 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 2: we as human find ourselves in the same situation? Because we, 357 00:21:53,460 --> 00:21:57,570 Speaker 2: we gravitate to what we recognize, whether it's good or 358 00:21:57,619 --> 00:22:01,430 Speaker 2: bad is different. That's not, it's what we feel comfortable in, right? 359 00:22:01,710 --> 00:22:04,210 Speaker 2: We feel comfortable with people yelling and pushing us around 360 00:22:04,230 --> 00:22:07,160 Speaker 2: and we, This is what we recognize, what we have 361 00:22:07,220 --> 00:22:13,310 Speaker 2: carried with us. So to change something like that has 362 00:22:13,330 --> 00:22:16,470 Speaker 2: to be first recognized. Hardest thing to do. And then 363 00:22:16,710 --> 00:22:21,130 Speaker 2: the work that goes into something like that is not impossible, 364 00:22:21,210 --> 00:22:23,770 Speaker 2: but it has to be recognized and kept in the 365 00:22:23,869 --> 00:22:26,530 Speaker 2: light at all times. Right. 366 00:22:26,830 --> 00:22:31,590 Speaker 1: And the series also really shows what an impossible task 367 00:22:31,630 --> 00:22:35,129 Speaker 1: that was for those boys. even when they were forced 368 00:22:35,190 --> 00:22:39,889 Speaker 1: to go into therapy, it was controlled by Jose. 369 00:22:40,290 --> 00:22:43,770 Speaker 2: Absolutely. And then people always say, why didn't they just leave, 370 00:22:43,810 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 2: walk away from the money, which is, was, should have 371 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:51,200 Speaker 2: been what they did, right? Just walk away from it 372 00:22:51,220 --> 00:22:56,480 Speaker 2: because they're adults now. So you figuratively cut them out 373 00:22:56,520 --> 00:23:00,340 Speaker 2: of your life, right? But if you don't know how 374 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:03,400 Speaker 2: to do that, if you don't know how to survive, 375 00:23:04,369 --> 00:23:10,430 Speaker 2: Without that, you're asking them to kill themselves too, right? 376 00:23:10,490 --> 00:23:12,359 Speaker 2: Which is what they did. 377 00:23:13,020 --> 00:23:20,620 Speaker 4: They just, their naivete, their youth, right? Their warped reality, 378 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:24,990 Speaker 4: which is what, I'm sorry. And people with money listening 379 00:23:25,030 --> 00:23:28,730 Speaker 4: to this, you know, there's 2% of the planet's population 380 00:23:28,770 --> 00:23:30,310 Speaker 4: that lives on another reality. 381 00:23:30,950 --> 00:23:34,160 Speaker 2: Those are the 2% that run everything. And I, they 382 00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:37,639 Speaker 2: just don't live on, on the same planet perspective of us. 383 00:23:38,140 --> 00:23:40,920 Speaker 2: So the higher you get to the sun, the more 384 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:45,950 Speaker 2: you think you can get away with. Right. You lose 385 00:23:45,990 --> 00:23:49,170 Speaker 2: your wings and you fall right on your face. And, 386 00:23:49,290 --> 00:23:52,530 Speaker 2: and it's, it's, it's just human nature. And that's why 387 00:23:52,570 --> 00:23:55,840 Speaker 2: your podcast and why we are so interested in these things. 388 00:23:55,920 --> 00:24:01,620 Speaker 2: It's like, why, why do people snap like that? What, 389 00:24:01,940 --> 00:24:05,140 Speaker 2: What takes it? What takes you to snap? What took 390 00:24:05,180 --> 00:24:07,800 Speaker 2: Martha to finally say anything? Unfortunately, it was the death 391 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:11,380 Speaker 2: of her brother that released her in some way. For me, 392 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 2: creating Martha, it was like, that's why I think she 393 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:18,290 Speaker 2: had the courage to say, because she was released from 394 00:24:18,330 --> 00:24:22,189 Speaker 2: that umbilical cord that nobody could walk away from, that 395 00:24:23,430 --> 00:24:29,910 Speaker 2: their whole reality was based upon, you know? Yep. It's 396 00:24:29,930 --> 00:24:34,350 Speaker 2: a difficult... it's a difficult line that we as humans 397 00:24:35,490 --> 00:24:37,620 Speaker 2: every day face. Yeah. 398 00:24:38,660 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 1: In, um, in a 2018 interview, Marta said she didn't 399 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:46,380 Speaker 1: consider Lyle and Eric criminals anymore and believed that they 400 00:24:46,420 --> 00:24:49,820 Speaker 1: had acted out of fear. Were you aware of how 401 00:24:49,980 --> 00:24:52,340 Speaker 1: strongly she continued to support them? 402 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:58,740 Speaker 2: Yes. She never wavered from that. Um, They killed their parents. 403 00:24:59,020 --> 00:25:01,240 Speaker 2: That's never, that was never, I mean, they tried to 404 00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:03,640 Speaker 2: get away with it, but once, once it was out, 405 00:25:04,230 --> 00:25:06,230 Speaker 2: I mean, those boys needed to go to like heavy 406 00:25:06,270 --> 00:25:10,610 Speaker 2: duty therapy. Like they did not, jail wasn't the answer, right? 407 00:25:10,630 --> 00:25:28,600 Speaker 1: Mm-hmm. So Marta's son, Andy, was close to Eric, and 408 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:31,859 Speaker 1: he became an important defense witness. And Andy testified in 409 00:25:31,859 --> 00:25:35,280 Speaker 1: 93 that when Eric was 13, Eric told him that 410 00:25:35,300 --> 00:25:40,380 Speaker 1: his father was giving him genital, quote, massages that were 411 00:25:40,420 --> 00:25:43,140 Speaker 1: beginning to hurt, and he wanted it to stop. Did 412 00:25:43,180 --> 00:25:44,910 Speaker 1: you know about Andy's testimony? 413 00:25:46,310 --> 00:25:50,570 Speaker 2: Not Marlene. Marlene didn't. But yes, I'm a young man 414 00:25:50,590 --> 00:25:54,140 Speaker 2: who played Andy. We talked about it a lot, you know. we, again, 415 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:57,180 Speaker 2: because we were all sitting in this courtroom, it wasn't 416 00:25:57,220 --> 00:25:59,120 Speaker 2: like we had rehearsals or anything like that, but we, 417 00:25:59,580 --> 00:26:03,530 Speaker 2: we bonded in a very odd way in a quiet way. 418 00:26:05,070 --> 00:26:08,190 Speaker 2: Because we, again, we weren't in the scenes, we weren't talking, 419 00:26:08,650 --> 00:26:12,109 Speaker 2: but we were as the characters. And then on the break, 420 00:26:12,170 --> 00:26:14,670 Speaker 2: you know, we would be like the hell. And he, 421 00:26:14,830 --> 00:26:18,350 Speaker 2: you know, he let me know about that particular interview. 422 00:26:18,410 --> 00:26:22,929 Speaker 2: And I was like, yeah, I mean, the, Actions of 423 00:26:22,990 --> 00:26:27,179 Speaker 2: these people, to me, watching them, all new. And the 424 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:32,679 Speaker 2: ones that were angry about it, maybe they didn't know. 425 00:26:32,700 --> 00:26:36,659 Speaker 2: Maybe they were just so angry at themselves for being quiet. Right. 426 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:39,409 Speaker 1: Right. Sometimes that's the response. 427 00:26:40,030 --> 00:26:40,290 Speaker 2: Yeah. 428 00:26:40,790 --> 00:26:45,650 Speaker 1: And there's another remarkable chapter involving Andy where decades later, 429 00:26:45,670 --> 00:26:49,820 Speaker 1: a letter attributed to Eric and dated 1988 was found 430 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:53,280 Speaker 1: among his belongings and they cited it as new evidence 431 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:57,160 Speaker 1: of Eric's claim that the abuse was, you know, continuing 432 00:26:57,220 --> 00:27:00,040 Speaker 1: before the murders. And were you aware of that, of 433 00:27:00,060 --> 00:27:00,440 Speaker 1: that letter? 434 00:27:00,460 --> 00:27:01,120 Speaker 2: Yeah. 435 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:01,380 Speaker 3: Yeah. 436 00:27:01,420 --> 00:27:03,440 Speaker 2: While we were shooting, we had already, we had already 437 00:27:03,510 --> 00:27:05,850 Speaker 2: seen that. We had, we had already been told about 438 00:27:05,890 --> 00:27:09,169 Speaker 2: that letter. You know, the interesting thing is that I, 439 00:27:10,710 --> 00:27:14,150 Speaker 2: we met some, some, you know, I, I didn't personally, 440 00:27:14,210 --> 00:27:21,410 Speaker 2: but Mauricio, who was playing my cousin. Yeah. And he 441 00:27:21,430 --> 00:27:25,010 Speaker 2: lives in Miami. And, you know, he did a lot 442 00:27:25,030 --> 00:27:29,930 Speaker 2: of business in Miami. And to this very day, those 443 00:27:30,010 --> 00:27:33,290 Speaker 2: businessmen do not believe that he killed their children. 444 00:27:33,530 --> 00:27:35,580 Speaker 1: They don't believe that he abused their children. 445 00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:38,879 Speaker 2: It was all a smear thing. It's all bullshit. And 446 00:27:38,900 --> 00:27:40,699 Speaker 2: those guys were murderers. 447 00:27:42,340 --> 00:27:42,800 Speaker 1: Wow. 448 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:45,380 Speaker 2: And they are murderers. I'm not going to take that 449 00:27:45,420 --> 00:27:48,780 Speaker 2: from you. But what drives somebody to that? 450 00:27:48,980 --> 00:27:49,160 Speaker 1: Right. 451 00:27:49,910 --> 00:27:53,810 Speaker 2: And the easy thing was greed because they were so wealthy, right? Yes. 452 00:27:54,550 --> 00:27:59,650 Speaker 2: But if you cut off some of these children, even adults, 453 00:28:00,630 --> 00:28:03,590 Speaker 2: they wouldn't know what to do. Right. They wouldn't know 454 00:28:03,609 --> 00:28:05,670 Speaker 2: what to do. It's like cutting out the umbilical cord. 455 00:28:05,730 --> 00:28:08,430 Speaker 2: And that's what people don't understand is that if your 456 00:28:08,470 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 2: reality knows nothing else. Right. 457 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:17,200 Speaker 1: If you have been systematically abused your whole life. 458 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:18,419 Speaker 2: This is what life is. 459 00:28:19,530 --> 00:28:21,520 Speaker 1: Cocooned by wealth. 460 00:28:22,300 --> 00:28:23,180 Speaker 2: And your family. 461 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:24,359 Speaker 1: And your family. 462 00:28:24,380 --> 00:28:26,500 Speaker 2: Because you have reached out to certain people. 463 00:28:26,980 --> 00:28:29,260 Speaker 1: And even as they show in the series that Jose 464 00:28:29,300 --> 00:28:32,899 Speaker 1: signs the music group Menudo to a huge contract. And 465 00:28:32,940 --> 00:28:38,660 Speaker 1: then years later, former member Roy Rossello, he alleged that 466 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:41,530 Speaker 1: Jose sexually assaulted him as a teenager. And the brother's 467 00:28:41,590 --> 00:28:46,430 Speaker 1: attorney cited that allegation to try to attempt to challenge 468 00:28:46,470 --> 00:28:49,110 Speaker 1: the convictions. Had you heard about all of that as well? 469 00:28:49,690 --> 00:28:50,130 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. 470 00:28:50,910 --> 00:28:55,710 Speaker 1: And how do we say that this guy's making it 471 00:28:55,790 --> 00:28:57,450 Speaker 1: up too? This is what I don't understand. 472 00:28:57,490 --> 00:28:58,450 Speaker 2: It's all a conspiracy. 473 00:28:58,870 --> 00:28:59,930 Speaker 1: You know, and to what end? 474 00:29:00,350 --> 00:29:02,230 Speaker 2: Well, you got to believe what you got to believe 475 00:29:02,270 --> 00:29:04,390 Speaker 2: so you can walk out of here and say, I 476 00:29:04,410 --> 00:29:07,050 Speaker 2: did business with this man and I have no guilt 477 00:29:07,110 --> 00:29:12,710 Speaker 2: about it. Right? We all justify what we do as 478 00:29:12,750 --> 00:29:17,290 Speaker 2: human beings every day. Every day we do little indiscretions, 479 00:29:17,390 --> 00:29:19,580 Speaker 2: little things. that we justify. 480 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:22,100 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, it's so true. 481 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:24,700 Speaker 2: It's so true. 482 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:28,140 Speaker 1: It is so true. 483 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:30,750 Speaker 2: Yeah. 484 00:29:31,170 --> 00:29:35,230 Speaker 1: So in a hearing outside the jury's presence, Marta testified 485 00:29:35,250 --> 00:29:37,430 Speaker 1: that Lyle and Eric seemed shocked by the amount of 486 00:29:37,470 --> 00:29:40,090 Speaker 1: money that their parents had and believe their father had 487 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:42,910 Speaker 1: written the amount of his will. Um, did you know 488 00:29:43,470 --> 00:29:45,790 Speaker 1: that that was part of her testimony? 489 00:29:46,230 --> 00:29:50,830 Speaker 2: Yes. Yes. Yeah. Because Martha used to run all the 490 00:29:50,890 --> 00:29:54,030 Speaker 2: business stuff. She did all the money. She knew she 491 00:29:54,070 --> 00:29:59,770 Speaker 2: was the treasurer of the people who allowed this to happen. Right. 492 00:29:59,790 --> 00:30:00,780 Speaker 2: You know, Right. 493 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:05,340 Speaker 1: And so the first trial ended with verdicts, with both 494 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:09,760 Speaker 1: juries deadlocked. And at the second trial, the brothers were 495 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:14,230 Speaker 1: tied together before one jury ultimately convicted them of first-degree murder. 496 00:30:14,330 --> 00:30:19,530 Speaker 1: And much of the abuse-related evidence presented in the first 497 00:30:19,570 --> 00:30:26,750 Speaker 1: trial was limited or excluded. Why on earth did that happen? 498 00:30:27,970 --> 00:30:35,240 Speaker 2: Because Because it was such a horrific, horrific crime. And 499 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:38,890 Speaker 2: at the time, OJ had gotten away with it. And 500 00:30:39,330 --> 00:30:42,950 Speaker 2: people love to hate rich people. The richer they are, 501 00:30:43,070 --> 00:30:46,530 Speaker 2: the more they hate them. And it was just, I just, 502 00:30:46,570 --> 00:30:51,020 Speaker 2: they needed a conviction. The DA needed a conviction. If 503 00:30:51,060 --> 00:30:54,719 Speaker 2: you look at what was happening in Los Angeles, and 504 00:30:54,740 --> 00:30:58,160 Speaker 2: I hate to bring that to like this, it's all politics. 505 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:02,840 Speaker 2: It was, and they just kept coming back. And to 506 00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:08,380 Speaker 2: take that evidence away is to remove the entire motive 507 00:31:08,540 --> 00:31:12,380 Speaker 2: is to say, now we're going to fight. Now they're monsters, right? 508 00:31:13,740 --> 00:31:15,980 Speaker 2: They had everything they wanted. They had all the cars 509 00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:21,290 Speaker 2: they wanted and they just wanted more. Well, further they 510 00:31:21,310 --> 00:31:23,910 Speaker 2: weren't aware of how much more there was second of all, 511 00:31:23,950 --> 00:31:26,050 Speaker 2: you know, and, and, and the truth is they already 512 00:31:26,110 --> 00:31:33,260 Speaker 2: had everything. Right. So, you know, at what point, you know, 513 00:31:34,500 --> 00:31:39,460 Speaker 2: children cannot defend themselves. These had become men at what point, 514 00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:43,240 Speaker 2: how much in those let's, let's do another thing. Let's 515 00:31:43,260 --> 00:31:47,110 Speaker 2: a woman that's constantly being, abused or raped and whatever. 516 00:31:47,130 --> 00:31:49,810 Speaker 2: And then she, you know, she, she snaps, people snap, 517 00:31:49,870 --> 00:31:55,610 Speaker 2: humans snap. Yes. You know, and that's, and at that moment, 518 00:31:55,670 --> 00:31:57,550 Speaker 2: and you know, they were like, well, they came back 519 00:31:57,610 --> 00:31:58,050 Speaker 2: and shot him. 520 00:31:58,070 --> 00:31:58,300 Speaker 1: Yes. 521 00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 2: Because you have crossed the line. And at that point, 522 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:05,340 Speaker 2: there is no going back. There's no justifying that in 523 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:09,060 Speaker 2: your head. You must go forward. Right. In that impulse, 524 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:10,740 Speaker 2: in that thing. Right. 525 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:13,660 Speaker 1: And now you have a new, you have a new perspective. 526 00:32:13,700 --> 00:32:15,740 Speaker 1: Like now this is, How. 527 00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:18,160 Speaker 2: You do now, how I do it perspective. And now 528 00:32:18,220 --> 00:32:21,959 Speaker 2: you can't get back up. You know, you just, you 529 00:32:22,030 --> 00:32:24,570 Speaker 2: can't now you just move forward and you just get 530 00:32:24,610 --> 00:32:27,450 Speaker 2: deeper and deeper and deeper. And it's, if you just 531 00:32:27,490 --> 00:32:29,670 Speaker 2: study any of these things that you listen to, that's 532 00:32:29,710 --> 00:32:34,070 Speaker 2: what happens. Right. And that's the point. I mean, do we, 533 00:32:35,530 --> 00:32:39,790 Speaker 2: do we, do we punish the person for just the 534 00:32:39,830 --> 00:32:42,990 Speaker 2: crime in an isolated thing, which is what they ended 535 00:32:43,030 --> 00:32:46,910 Speaker 2: up doing to the Menendez brothers? They just looked at 536 00:32:46,950 --> 00:32:51,130 Speaker 2: the crime and said, yes, this is horrible. You must suffer. 537 00:32:52,450 --> 00:32:55,210 Speaker 2: Without saying, what? 538 00:32:56,340 --> 00:33:01,320 Speaker 1: Right. This is why Monsters itself presents different perspectives on 539 00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:04,460 Speaker 1: what happened rather than giving the audience one simple answer. 540 00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:08,820 Speaker 2: You guys can decide. And even with, I think, pretty 541 00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:13,820 Speaker 2: solid evidence that's out there. Forget about the movies. Forget about, 542 00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:16,520 Speaker 2: I mean, the series. Forget about the series. Just look 543 00:33:16,580 --> 00:33:18,360 Speaker 2: at what's out there. The court records. 544 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:19,720 Speaker 1: There's evidence. 545 00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:24,690 Speaker 2: There is so much evidence that, yes, dude, something went on. 546 00:33:24,710 --> 00:33:26,690 Speaker 2: Don't look at me and tell me the whole shit 547 00:33:26,710 --> 00:33:29,470 Speaker 2: was made up. Yes, I am sure that between their 548 00:33:29,530 --> 00:33:33,430 Speaker 2: testimony and the shit that happens, you know, there's the reality. 549 00:33:33,470 --> 00:33:36,800 Speaker 2: And we're never going to know what really happened. But 550 00:33:37,660 --> 00:33:42,500 Speaker 2: something happened. And it happened for a long time. And 551 00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:48,020 Speaker 2: a lot of people knew, including Martha. Did she know 552 00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:51,990 Speaker 2: the details of it? Did she know that it was sexual? 553 00:33:52,090 --> 00:33:55,590 Speaker 2: I don't know. Because people keep that, you know. You know, 554 00:33:55,610 --> 00:33:57,150 Speaker 2: the one thing that I learned that I didn't know 555 00:33:57,210 --> 00:34:02,370 Speaker 2: was that the mother, that our mother had been abused. Right. Right. 556 00:34:02,390 --> 00:34:06,150 Speaker 2: Because that conversation that Varden has, I was like. 557 00:34:07,060 --> 00:34:09,240 Speaker 1: Yep. The phone call when he calls his mom. 558 00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:16,050 Speaker 2: Of course. The abuse doesn't. It doesn't start from nothing. 559 00:34:16,430 --> 00:34:16,730 Speaker 3: Right. 560 00:34:17,340 --> 00:34:21,980 Speaker 1: And Eric Menendez publicly criticized the series after its release 561 00:34:22,380 --> 00:34:26,660 Speaker 1: and called his portrayal of Lyle a damaging caricature, and 562 00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:30,120 Speaker 1: he objected to the way their story was presented. Were 563 00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:33,040 Speaker 1: you surprised by that reaction? No. 564 00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:43,529 Speaker 2: This is what happens when you create... something about real 565 00:34:43,590 --> 00:34:51,120 Speaker 2: people and they're not dead because there's, you only want 566 00:34:51,140 --> 00:34:52,680 Speaker 2: to tell my side of the story. I want you 567 00:34:52,700 --> 00:34:53,540 Speaker 2: to tell my side. 568 00:34:53,580 --> 00:34:53,980 Speaker 1: Yes. 569 00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:58,680 Speaker 2: Right. Don't make me look bad. Don't make me look 570 00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:01,719 Speaker 2: like maybe I had a reason to do this. You 571 00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:03,730 Speaker 2: did have a reason to do this. That's what we're 572 00:35:03,770 --> 00:35:04,430 Speaker 2: saying to you. 573 00:35:06,270 --> 00:35:06,530 Speaker 1: Yeah. 574 00:35:06,550 --> 00:35:08,690 Speaker 2: Sorry. It got to that point, but you were not 575 00:35:08,930 --> 00:35:12,420 Speaker 2: taking away your reason. We're not, There was a reason 576 00:35:12,500 --> 00:35:13,620 Speaker 2: why you did what you did. 577 00:35:14,820 --> 00:35:18,910 Speaker 1: Even in the portrayal of him, sure, Lyle in particular 578 00:35:19,030 --> 00:35:23,730 Speaker 1: doesn't look like the nicest of humans in moments. But 579 00:35:24,350 --> 00:35:29,009 Speaker 1: to your point, it's absolutely explained why in all of 580 00:35:29,170 --> 00:35:35,010 Speaker 1: the other actions. I think it's probably very difficult to 581 00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:40,600 Speaker 1: see yourself so publicly presented at imperfectly. Like I'm sure 582 00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:41,360 Speaker 1: that's difficult. 583 00:35:41,420 --> 00:35:44,819 Speaker 2: That's it. That's what you just said. And if you, 584 00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:50,350 Speaker 2: if anybody opens themselves up to reality TV or anything 585 00:35:50,390 --> 00:35:54,489 Speaker 2: like that to, to, to someone to look into your life, um, 586 00:35:55,210 --> 00:35:56,930 Speaker 2: you have to realize they're going to look at everything, 587 00:35:58,310 --> 00:36:03,680 Speaker 2: you know? Um, so it's, you know, Not everybody is 588 00:36:03,739 --> 00:36:06,360 Speaker 2: happy when you take a good look in the mirror. 589 00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:07,260 Speaker 1: Right. 590 00:36:07,940 --> 00:36:11,980 Speaker 2: Right. For sure. Like, oh, no, that's not the way 591 00:36:12,140 --> 00:36:14,180 Speaker 2: I saw it. Exactly. 592 00:36:15,900 --> 00:36:17,839 Speaker 1: Do you think that, we talked a little about this, 593 00:36:17,890 --> 00:36:21,710 Speaker 1: but do you think that audiences hear the brothers' allegations 594 00:36:21,770 --> 00:36:25,530 Speaker 1: differently today than jurors and the public did three decades 595 00:36:25,570 --> 00:36:28,569 Speaker 1: ago when we weren't really talking about boys and men 596 00:36:28,830 --> 00:36:29,910 Speaker 1: reporting sexual abuse? 597 00:36:29,930 --> 00:36:30,430 Speaker 3: Oh, absolutely. 598 00:36:30,570 --> 00:36:37,050 Speaker 2: Absolutely. I think so. I think, look, I think, unfortunately, 599 00:36:38,430 --> 00:36:41,400 Speaker 2: even now, this last time that the courts came around, 600 00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:44,219 Speaker 2: it was a new district attorney, you know, and they 601 00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:51,380 Speaker 2: have been, this story has been mixed into the masa 602 00:36:51,820 --> 00:36:53,569 Speaker 2: in Spanish, if I was going to say, to the 603 00:36:53,630 --> 00:36:56,969 Speaker 2: masa of Los Angeles politics in such a way that 604 00:36:57,550 --> 00:37:04,040 Speaker 2: has really not helped them. You know, every time, because 605 00:37:04,180 --> 00:37:06,439 Speaker 2: I believe the evidence is there and I believe they've, 606 00:37:07,140 --> 00:37:10,219 Speaker 2: they've done their time for killing. They've done their time. 607 00:37:10,660 --> 00:37:12,120 Speaker 2: It's time to let them go. I think. 608 00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:15,029 Speaker 1: I agree with you. I personally agree with you. 609 00:37:15,050 --> 00:37:18,690 Speaker 2: They've done their time. They, any other, any other, it's 610 00:37:18,730 --> 00:37:21,630 Speaker 2: just that because it's on in the media eye and 611 00:37:21,650 --> 00:37:25,730 Speaker 2: because I think they're more sympathetic. I think they have 612 00:37:25,770 --> 00:37:29,029 Speaker 2: more people on their side, but they still, They'd have 613 00:37:29,050 --> 00:37:32,090 Speaker 2: to do this all over again. And at one point, 614 00:37:32,310 --> 00:37:35,489 Speaker 2: you know, I mean, I don't even know. I don't know. 615 00:37:35,510 --> 00:37:38,569 Speaker 2: At what point do you give up? I don't know. 616 00:37:39,370 --> 00:37:39,710 Speaker 4: I don't know. 617 00:37:40,130 --> 00:37:43,370 Speaker 1: I mean, these are all very big questions. And I 618 00:37:43,450 --> 00:37:47,040 Speaker 1: agree with you. I personally, this is my personal opinion, 619 00:37:47,219 --> 00:37:51,500 Speaker 1: just feel that they have suffered enough and after all 620 00:37:51,540 --> 00:37:53,900 Speaker 1: that they have gone through to have to continue to 621 00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:59,100 Speaker 1: be in prison. I just, it feels just... wrong, unusually 622 00:37:59,180 --> 00:37:59,980 Speaker 1: sick and wrong. 623 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:07,950 Speaker 2: Unusually, unusually cruel, which is the way these men have 624 00:38:08,010 --> 00:38:13,370 Speaker 2: lived their lives. Usually cruel punishment around the entire lives. 625 00:38:13,890 --> 00:38:17,930 Speaker 2: It's time. I mean, I, I had no opinion, you know, 626 00:38:17,969 --> 00:38:19,950 Speaker 2: I was like, it's horrible and they should be in jail. 627 00:38:20,070 --> 00:38:22,720 Speaker 2: I think, I don't think they should not have done something, 628 00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:26,210 Speaker 2: you know, some sort of penance for this thing. But, um, 629 00:38:27,780 --> 00:38:29,980 Speaker 2: It's they have, what else do you want from them? 630 00:38:30,140 --> 00:38:30,799 Speaker 2: You know? Yep. 631 00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:36,630 Speaker 1: I agree. Well, this has been such, I've just loved 632 00:38:36,650 --> 00:38:39,609 Speaker 1: talking with you. You're such a delight and you're so 633 00:38:39,690 --> 00:38:44,130 Speaker 1: smart and so interesting. And the series is called monsters, 634 00:38:44,210 --> 00:38:47,350 Speaker 1: the Lyle and Eric Menendez story. It's streaming on Netflix 635 00:38:47,770 --> 00:38:50,700 Speaker 1: and Marlene, what a joy to meet you. I hope, 636 00:38:50,780 --> 00:38:53,160 Speaker 1: I hope we get to meet in person sometime. 637 00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:54,960 Speaker 2: A pleasure to meet you. I hope we see each 638 00:38:55,020 --> 00:38:56,379 Speaker 2: other soon again. Okay. 639 00:38:57,250 --> 00:38:57,739 Speaker 1: Take care. 640 00:38:57,800 --> 00:38:58,060 Speaker 2: Bye.