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Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways. I don't stories of things we simply don't

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Speaker 1: know the answer too. Hi there, welcome again to an

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Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Sideways. I'm your host Joe, joined as

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Speaker 1: always by and Steve. Yeah. Well, so we're going to

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Speaker 1: tackle another cool mystery this week. We're going to talk

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Speaker 1: about the disappearance of David Like the singer. Uh No, actually,

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Speaker 1: well it's funny. It's an interesting mystery in a mystery

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Speaker 1: here is that David snedd and the singer has got

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Speaker 1: a Wikipedia page, but list David Sneddon does not have one.

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Speaker 1: Be honest with you, the singer David Sneddon kind of

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Speaker 1: became the bane of my existence throughout researching this. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I know, because I don't care where he's touring. That's

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Speaker 1: not what I'm after now. It's unfortunate, but yeah, he

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Speaker 1: does clog after Google service. Yeah, I know. I'm sure

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Speaker 1: that fans of him are saying the exact same thing

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Speaker 1: about our story tonight. I don't want to read about

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Speaker 1: this story again. Really shouldn't have been in China anyway, man,

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Speaker 1: any way, back to back to the disappearance of David

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Speaker 1: snid And he was a twenty four year old students

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Speaker 1: and traveler who disappeared in China and two thousand four.

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Speaker 1: And before I say anything more, I'd also I'd like

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Speaker 1: to thank our listeners Sean who suggested this story, and

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Speaker 1: I'm glad that he did because I had not heard

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Speaker 1: about this one before. It's really it's really good. It's

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Speaker 1: an interesting story, don't you think. Yeah, And so onto

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Speaker 1: the case. Then let me let me lay out the

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Speaker 1: facts for you. David was twenty fourth time that he

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Speaker 1: just disappeared. And in two thousand four, he had finished

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Speaker 1: his junior year at Brigham Young University and was planning

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Speaker 1: on returning in the fall to finish out his final year,

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Speaker 1: and he was making plans to go to law school.

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Speaker 1: Had it all has left, all planned out? Yeah, he was.

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Speaker 1: He was a Mormon, son of Roy and Kathleen Sted,

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Speaker 1: and he had ten brothers and sisters, big old family.

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Speaker 1: And as he all probably know, Mormons are expected to

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Speaker 1: go somewhere for two years on a mission, and the

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Speaker 1: missionaries and score some new Mormons, and uh, yeah, that

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Speaker 1: is part of what they do on their mission. It's

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Speaker 1: not just trying to convert people. Yeah, yeah, even primarily. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but they'll do that kind of stuff too, Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: missionary work and whatever that it might entail. Yeah. Uh.

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Speaker 1: David spent his two years in South Korea. Then he

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Speaker 1: was fluent in Korean. Yeah, and at b y U

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Speaker 1: he also studied Mandarin. He lived in the Chinese house.

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Speaker 1: Apparently they had different houses there that so you could

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Speaker 1: be immersed in the language and learned. So he lived

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Speaker 1: in the Chinese house and his plan apparently was to

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Speaker 1: when he came back uh in the follow two thousand

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Speaker 1: fours he wanted to study Spanish also, so he just

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Speaker 1: planning on living in the Spanish house. This guy was

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Speaker 1: in the languages. Apparently he had some facility with them.

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Speaker 1: I was I was gonna say, because that's not an

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Speaker 1: easy thing to do. Yeah, now, neither of those are

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Speaker 1: particularly easy languages. Yeah. Apparently, from what I understand, he

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Speaker 1: was fluent in both Mandarin and Korean. Yeah. Yeah, so

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Speaker 1: that's that's impressive. Yeah. And anyway, after he finished his

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Speaker 1: class as at b y U in two thousand four,

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Speaker 1: he went to China to study Mandarin and Beijing and

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Speaker 1: when the classes ended, which is at the beginning of August,

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Speaker 1: he left Beijing with his roommate George Bailey, who was

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Speaker 1: also going to be y U, and they traveled together

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Speaker 1: until August nine. At that point, George had to leave

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Speaker 1: because his plane his returned plane ticket was earlier than

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Speaker 1: than David's. David continued on to United Province, and I

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Speaker 1: don't know, I'm gonna state this right away. There's a

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Speaker 1: lot of words here that I'm probably going to mispronounce.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, okay. So he went to Unan Province, which

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Speaker 1: is in the southwest of China borders Vietnam. Laos Burma

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Speaker 1: went down there. He went to the town of Lijiang,

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Speaker 1: where he spent to night, and on August eleventh, he

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Speaker 1: sent an email to his mother which read quote, actually, Devin,

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Speaker 1: you want to read that so they don't have to

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Speaker 1: listen to entirely in my voice. Sure, yeah, he says,

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Speaker 1: I'm in Lijiang now, the in western Non province. I

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Speaker 1: will take a bus and hike tiger Leaping gorge in

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Speaker 1: about half an hour. I am having a great time here,

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Speaker 1: but nonetheless I'm excited to come home unquote. And that

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Speaker 1: was the last that the family heard from him. Uh.

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Speaker 1: He went to the tiny town of Keo Too, which

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Speaker 1: is the jumping off point for tiger Leaping gorge. And

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Speaker 1: by the way, let a moment here Tiger Tiger leaping gorge.

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Speaker 1: You can do a Google on it. It's just fantastically incredible.

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Speaker 1: It's you've seen pictures of it. Yeah, it's incredible. I mean,

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Speaker 1: if I ever get to China, I'm really going to

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Speaker 1: try to go make that take that hike. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I don't know that I would take the hike though,

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Speaker 1: it's a little scary. I'm I don't know I would

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Speaker 1: take that. Yeah, Yeah, more about the hike in a

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Speaker 1: little bit. Here. He was carrying a large backpack. He

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Speaker 1: left that at a youth hostel called James guest House,

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Speaker 1: and he took the top that it's one of those

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Speaker 1: backpacks that's got the detachable top party you can use

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Speaker 1: kind of look at Fannie packed. And so he took

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Speaker 1: that only and put a few clothing articles and toothbrush

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Speaker 1: and this Book of Mormon in there, and uh left

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Speaker 1: to hike the trail. And I'm sitting I'm assuming he

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Speaker 1: had some water in there too. Yeah. He never came

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Speaker 1: back to get the backpack. The police found it there

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Speaker 1: weeks later. He was he would generally stay in touch

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Speaker 1: with his family while traveling. He would email them then

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Speaker 1: two or three times a week at least. Um. When

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Speaker 1: a week went by, they started worrying about not hearing

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Speaker 1: from but they they assumed, well, he's kind of traveling

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Speaker 1: in our remote area, so maybe there's no internet cafes.

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Speaker 1: But on the twenty sixth of August, he was supposed

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Speaker 1: to meet up with his brother Michael in Seoul, South Korea,

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Speaker 1: and he didn't show up for their meeting, and that

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Speaker 1: was That would have been about two weeks after he

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Speaker 1: left to hike Tiger Leaping Gorge. Yeah. Uh so the

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Speaker 1: family got in touch with the U. S. Embassy in China,

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Speaker 1: and the Chinese authorities did a little searching. They they

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Speaker 1: went around, like since he said he was going to

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Speaker 1: go to Tiger Leaping Gorge, they went to the tiny

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Speaker 1: town of Kian two and put up posters all over

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Speaker 1: the place, especially outside hospital hostels. And they also went

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Speaker 1: up the trail because they were there were also small

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Speaker 1: little hostels and and what we're called guest houses on

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Speaker 1: the trail itself. So they went to all those places

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Speaker 1: and put posters up and stuff and ask questions, and

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Speaker 1: that's how they found the backpack. Other than that, they

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Speaker 1: apparently his passport hadn't been used to his his bank

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Speaker 1: account hadn't bed touch since August five. They checked the hospitals, jails,

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Speaker 1: mental hospitals, found nothing. They decided that murder was out

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Speaker 1: of the question because there's very little murdering that part

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Speaker 1: of that part of China. It's kind of rural and

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Speaker 1: you know, nice, it's not like the cities, and China

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Speaker 1: does at least officially have a very low murder rate.

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Speaker 1: It's like, you know, one per a hundred thousand, which

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Speaker 1: is yeah, and privacy, mean most of that is in

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Speaker 1: the cities. Yeah, I would imagine. So, I mean it's

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Speaker 1: it's kind of a cultural taboo, yeah, exactly. So they

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Speaker 1: found his backpack where he left at Jame's guest house,

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Speaker 1: like I said, and looking at that, they've got some clothes,

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Speaker 1: some airline tickets, and some undeveloped rules of film, which

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Speaker 1: they turned over to the U. S Embassy. Eventually, they

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Speaker 1: concluded that David had fallen from the trail to his death, because,

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Speaker 1: after all, it is kind of a scary little trail.

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Speaker 1: It was kind of kind of treacherous. In fact, I

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Speaker 1: came across several amusing blog posts by people who would

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Speaker 1: who would hide the trail. You read those two, yeah,

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Speaker 1: ne were talking about how it was the most terrifying experience,

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Speaker 1: that there was a lot of colorful descriptions of the trail. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so it sounds like why I'll never, I'll never hike it.

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Speaker 1: It looks kind of awesome. Yeah, now it looks pretty

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Speaker 1: awesome to me too, And I'm thinking about the opportunity

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Speaker 1: for for photography and some really awesome pictures. Yeah. But

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Speaker 1: according the end, and probably you guys read those some

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Speaker 1: of the accounts that I read, which is there are

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Speaker 1: a few people that said it's very easy to lose

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Speaker 1: your way and get sidetracked and get on the wrong path,

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Speaker 1: which not a false trails from the main trail. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and then some of those will lead to very perilous

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Speaker 1: places and you and here you thinking, well, this is

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Speaker 1: a real trail, you know your head, and you keep

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Speaker 1: heading on down to this place that's going to lead

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Speaker 1: it like maybe not certain death. But oh yeah, no,

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Speaker 1: I've I've read I think it might have been one

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Speaker 1: of the ones you put up of hikers who went

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Speaker 1: down a false trail and followed it for two hours

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Speaker 1: and when they realized they were on a false trail

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Speaker 1: had to go back and then continue hiking in the

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Speaker 1: real trail. So they're doing it in the dark. If

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Speaker 1: you've ever hiked in the dark, you know, just a

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Speaker 1: flat area, it's kind of perilous. Now put yourself on

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Speaker 1: some extreme slope with basically a goat track, that's what

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Speaker 1: you're doing. Yeah, now, uh yeah. The only time I

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Speaker 1: went up lost and hiking in the dark, I luckily

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Speaker 1: had a small flashlight with me. Yeah, that was a

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Speaker 1: good thing for you. I'm really glad I had that

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Speaker 1: with me, because I would have been hosed. As I said,

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Speaker 1: The Chinese concluded that he left the trail, may roll

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Speaker 1: down the mountain side, maybe even on into the Jinshaw River,

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Speaker 1: which is at the bottom of Tiger Leaping Gorge where

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Speaker 1: he drowned, if he wasn't already dead from the fall. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: from the fall? Is this? Is this a correct conclusion? Well,

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Speaker 1: there's I found one Reddit thread. There's more than one

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Speaker 1: Reddit thread about this. This this particular one was the

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Speaker 1: shortest one I've ever seen it. That's somebody introduces the

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Speaker 1: mystery and everybody's I'll come on. Of course he fell

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Speaker 1: and died, you know, Yeah, uh so, but there were

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Speaker 1: other threads that had a little more we were a

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Speaker 1: little less close minded than that. Yeah, there are people

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Speaker 1: who think otherwise, including David Sniden's family, especially the family,

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Speaker 1: because they've done a lot of looking for David. They

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Speaker 1: really have invested heavily in figuring out what was going on. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: good for them. I mean, you know, they won't give

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Speaker 1: up on their son. I can only hope that my

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Speaker 1: family would do the same, you know, you would hope.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I've met your family out and they

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Speaker 1: don't seem to really care for you. It happened. Who's

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Speaker 1: going to watch the dog your hell? Okay, so it

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Speaker 1: goes xerox off some posters. Yeah, here are a few

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Speaker 1: of the theories that are floating around out there. And

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Speaker 1: he yes, we're right in the theories now right away,

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Speaker 1: right away. This one. Whenever somebody disappears, of course, this

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Speaker 1: theory always gets floated, which is that they disappeared voluntarily

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Speaker 1: to go start a new life. And you know, we

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Speaker 1: heard that in Marrow Murray's case, Dorothy Arnold's case. And

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Speaker 1: I found a website called NK News which quotes an

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Speaker 1: anonymous friend of David's who said that David was conflicted,

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Speaker 1: that he was struggling, that he felt trapped, that he

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Speaker 1: was being forced into a mold that he didn't really want.

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Speaker 1: K News I believe would be North Korea. I'm suspecting. Um.

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Speaker 1: You know, I was never able to find out to

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Speaker 1: my satisfaction whether or not it was just a North

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Speaker 1: Korean propaganda side. Yeah, I think I was on that

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Speaker 1: site and I couldn't figure out what was going on.

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Speaker 1: I know, I know it's if you ever read any

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Speaker 1: official press releases from North Korea, they're a lot less

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Speaker 1: professional than that, particular than endkan News with the website. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, because you know, the ones from North North

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Speaker 1: Korean government are bombastic, combative and and just kind of ludicrous.

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Speaker 1: And whereas that one was that that the NK news

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Speaker 1: article was was actually written in a fairly reasonable rational voice,

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Speaker 1: even though even though I think they made up this

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Speaker 1: anonymous friend of David's and they didn't say who he was,

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Speaker 1: and it didn't sound to be like from his other

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Speaker 1: his other friends said that he was conflicted at all.

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Speaker 1: They said he was David. Back to end Kane News,

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Speaker 1: he was last seen at the Korean Restaurant in the

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Speaker 1: company of quote A beautiful Asian woman unquote. So they

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Speaker 1: floated the idea that he's decided to leave and start

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Speaker 1: his life over again. Yeah, I don't like this, sary.

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Speaker 1: Had he left seven hundred behind seven hund dollars behind

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Speaker 1: his bank account, why wouldn't he get that out? If

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Speaker 1: you're gonna head off to start a new life, how

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Speaker 1: don't you want to take as much cash as you

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Speaker 1: can with you. You never back to get his backpack either,

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Speaker 1: he already paid tuition for fall and bring him young. Um.

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Speaker 1: And also, last of all, I think that leaving your

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Speaker 1: family hanging like that is is really kind of what's

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Speaker 1: the word I'm trying to think. Yeah, it's a d

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Speaker 1: bag move, you know. I mean, and he didn't strike people.

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Speaker 1: What I've learned about David, that's that kind of a guy.

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Speaker 1: So I have a couple of questions for you. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: first off, tuition was paid? Was he financing his tuition

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Speaker 1: or was he paying cash? Do you know I never

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Speaker 1: found him? No, I do not know. That's a good question.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to guess they're going to bring him young.

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Speaker 1: He probably had to finance it. So when it says

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Speaker 1: that it was paid for, really he had signed the

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Speaker 1: loan paperwork, but if he never showed up, the money

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Speaker 1: never would transferred. Yeah, I well, I in this particular case,

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Speaker 1: I don't. I'm not fully behind the he decided to

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Speaker 1: to just take off and make a new life. I

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Speaker 1: will say that from the perspective of his religion. It's

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Speaker 1: you here describe I've I've known some folks who were Mormons.

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Speaker 1: Is that there. It's a bit rigid at times, and

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Speaker 1: you put on the happy face. You are everything is great.

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Speaker 1: You couldn't be happier. You do everything you're told to.

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Speaker 1: You show no signs of any cracks in the foundation,

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Speaker 1: but that doesn't mean they're not there, and that doesn't

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Speaker 1: mean that people in that situation won't do things behind

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Speaker 1: everybody else's back. Very particular example is that years ago

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Speaker 1: I met a girl and we started dating. This was

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Speaker 1: very briefly, and I kind of knew she was Mormon,

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Speaker 1: but I didn't really pay attention to it. And then

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Speaker 1: not too long after we had been together for a

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Speaker 1: very brief amount of time, I come to find out that, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: she's actually her family doesn't know about me. They think

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Speaker 1: she's extremely devout and she's, according to the church, engaged.

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Speaker 1: This does somebody else entirely who was of the church. Okay,

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Speaker 1: now she was doing all of this for I mean,

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Speaker 1: she pulled it off with me for about a month

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Speaker 1: before I was like, whoa, So no, this is not okay.

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Speaker 1: She didn't try to convert you or anything. No. But

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Speaker 1: but the point is is that when you are following

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Speaker 1: what you're told you have to do and it's not

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Speaker 1: what you want to do, people can get extremely creative

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Speaker 1: about making that double life. Now do I think that

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Speaker 1: that's what happened to him? I I really I don't

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Speaker 1: see anything. But then again, I have to wonder was

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Speaker 1: he good enough at making that double life that for

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Speaker 1: him the whole time in Korea was a giant party,

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Speaker 1: but everybody else didn't know it because he was just

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Speaker 1: so good at hiding it. You know, I had no

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Speaker 1: idea how to vow he was. You know, any religion

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Speaker 1: is like there's always going to be people who are

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Speaker 1: more into it than other people. The varying degrees of commitment. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I had a lot of variance there. But he left

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Speaker 1: the money in the backpack behind. I don't know. People do,

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Speaker 1: not everybody obviously, but there's a certain fair number of

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Speaker 1: people who classify Mormonism as a cult just to like

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Speaker 1: that out there. Well, you know, while everything like Stephen

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Speaker 1: saying may have seemed really hunky dorry to his friends

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Speaker 1: and family, if he was feeling that, it was kind

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Speaker 1: of that way and the only way to escape out

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Speaker 1: of it would have been to fake his death and

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Speaker 1: lead a different life. But I agree, I don't necessarily

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Speaker 1: think you would leave all that stuff behind. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't think so. Yeah. I mean that dropping of

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Speaker 1: every physical trace. That's I almost want to say, that's like,

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Speaker 1: you know, a total government plot level thought ahead of time,

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Speaker 1: instead of you know, some dude who is like, that's it.

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Speaker 1: I got to get out. He's not going to be

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Speaker 1: that good at planning and ahead and you know, I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's I don't think this is what happened, But I can't.

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Speaker 1: I can't push it away as a possibility is as

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Speaker 1: easily as some are willing to, I can push it

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Speaker 1: away pretty easily. I'm giving this theory um once one

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Speaker 1: star out of seven possible. They it's one of those

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Speaker 1: stories for Joe. Yeah, folks at home, please write down

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Speaker 1: that number. You're gonna need a cheat sheet at the

304
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Speaker 1: edge because there will be a test. Yeah. Yeah, so

305
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Speaker 1: not a not a good theory in my opinion. Okay,

306
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Speaker 1: next theory, Um, he was murdered. It's hard to say

307
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Speaker 1: why somebody would murder him. Something maybe robbery, Maybe somebody

308
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Speaker 1: wanted wanted his money as Walleton, but it seems like

309
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Speaker 1: he didn't have that much money on him. Yeah. Yeah,

310
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Speaker 1: and uh, it's probably not necessary to kill somebody. You

311
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Speaker 1: can just rob him, right. And of course, as I said,

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Speaker 1: murder was not typical of the area. But I will

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Speaker 1: say this I did, I did look around a little bit.

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Speaker 1: But it turns out in in two thousand four when

315
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Speaker 1: David disappeared, there happened to be a farmer named jiangyang Ming.

316
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Speaker 1: He lived in Yunon Province, although he didn't live like

317
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Speaker 1: he lived near the sent of the city of kung Ming,

318
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Speaker 1: which is a city that David was actually going it

319
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Speaker 1: was actually going to travel to shortly. It's a nearby city. Uh.

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Speaker 1: In May two thousand twelve, Young Ming Jiang how would

321
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Speaker 1: be calling jiangang Ming was arrested for murder and turns

322
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Speaker 1: out he was a serial killer and he was suspected

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Speaker 1: of murdering perhaps as many as seventeen people. Yeah, his

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Speaker 1: first murder was in nineteen seventy nine. He uh served

325
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Speaker 1: prison time for that until nineteen ninety seven, when they

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Speaker 1: let him out and gave him some land in Yunan

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Speaker 1: Province to be a farmer. After he murdered these people,

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Speaker 1: reportedly he butchered their bodies and fed parts of them

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Speaker 1: to his dogs. And here's the best part, or maybe

330
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Speaker 1: not the best part, but a lot of the meat.

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Speaker 1: He would cure it and take it down to the

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Speaker 1: local market and sell it as ostrich meat. It's white meat, yeah,

333
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Speaker 1: I know, And so you don't know what in white

334
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Speaker 1: meat is white meat? Yeah? So yeah, the word of

335
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Speaker 1: the wise if you go to China, don't eat the

336
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Speaker 1: ostrich meeting. Yeah. So, anyway, his spree is mostly concentrated.

337
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Speaker 1: I think the ones that were able to pin on

338
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Speaker 1: him were from two thousand to two thou twelve. That

339
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Speaker 1: doesn't mean that he didn't commit the odd murder before

340
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Speaker 1: that time, just means maybe he escalated, so could Jang

341
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Speaker 1: and David cross paths and did that and not so

342
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Speaker 1: well for David that you know. My thing with this

343
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Speaker 1: whole theory is that he's hiking a trail. Yeah, you know,

344
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Speaker 1: that's not the best place to try and abduct somebody

345
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Speaker 1: or commit a crime, because you don't know there's you know,

346
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Speaker 1: there's inevitably going to be somebody just around the corner

347
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Speaker 1: on that path. Well yeah, but I don't. I don't

348
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Speaker 1: because I personally think spoiler alert here and play your ear.

349
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Speaker 1: But I personally think he didn't meet him on the trail.

350
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Speaker 1: He met him, met him afterwards, after he left the trail,

351
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Speaker 1: if he met him at all, that I doubt. At

352
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Speaker 1: the odds of these two crossing paths is I think

353
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Speaker 1: pretty minimal. Yeah, it makes me think of do you

354
00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:21,160
Speaker 1: remember what is that Timothy Oliphant movie where he is, uh,

355
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Speaker 1: he's a newly wed and he needs another newlywed couple

356
00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:26,639
Speaker 1: and it turns out one of the one couple is

357
00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:31,680
Speaker 1: a set of crazy psycho killers. But it's just everything

358
00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:35,080
Speaker 1: about the movie is so absurd because the chances of

359
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Speaker 1: this and the chances of that, and you know, it's

360
00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:39,480
Speaker 1: one of those we just build suspense and suspense till

361
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Speaker 1: we have a sort of okay ending. But it's like

362
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Speaker 1: that that only happens in written Hollywood movies. That's where

363
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Speaker 1: they meet on the trail and they hike for a

364
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Speaker 1: day together, and they bore him my friendship and then

365
00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:56,560
Speaker 1: he beats him over the head and cooks him for dinner. Yeah,

366
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Speaker 1: I know the I don't think that if they did meet,

367
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Speaker 1: I think they would admit probably later on. Okay, but

368
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Speaker 1: I guess another point to be made probably is that

369
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Speaker 1: you don't a tourist is probably way more likely to

370
00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:13,639
Speaker 1: be missed. That's an American tourists. Yeah, you know, because

371
00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:18,400
Speaker 1: apparently people disappear in China with a disturbing regularity, but

372
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Speaker 1: like locals, locals exactly. So everybody figures they went to

373
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Speaker 1: the big city or the next town to get better work,

374
00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:28,520
Speaker 1: or everybody figures that they were kidnapped and sent off

375
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Speaker 1: to do Okay, yeah, yeah, okay, so I I murder.

376
00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:35,960
Speaker 1: I'm going to say it's kind of improbable, and we're

377
00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:40,520
Speaker 1: going to give that three stars okay out of okay. Yeah,

378
00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:42,920
Speaker 1: I'm going to be consistent here. Is this an arbitrary

379
00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:45,879
Speaker 1: scoring system, by the way, or is there some you know,

380
00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:50,360
Speaker 1: he's he's done all the math behind it, calculations want

381
00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:53,400
Speaker 1: to make really complex formulas. I don't. I don't want

382
00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:56,280
Speaker 1: to get you know, some statistician right and in about

383
00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:58,880
Speaker 1: how our system is skewed. I just want to make sure. Yeah,

384
00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:01,359
Speaker 1: now you multiply three of three or three times and

385
00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:08,600
Speaker 1: you get yeah. And I like the system because it's

386
00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:12,760
Speaker 1: more precise than just say four or five stars. Yeah. Okay,

387
00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:17,600
Speaker 1: next theory suicide. Now, I know it's stupid, but I'm

388
00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:20,119
Speaker 1: going to give this one a quarter star. Yeah, because

389
00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:23,000
Speaker 1: obviously nobody h there was no evidence of any kind

390
00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:26,159
Speaker 1: of depression. His friend George Bailey that he lived with

391
00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:29,800
Speaker 1: in Beijing and he traveled with after Beijing said I

392
00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:32,640
Speaker 1: didn't report any sort of depression or anything like that. Yeah.

393
00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:36,119
Speaker 1: I would give ran away more more credence in this.

394
00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:39,520
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, twice as much in fact, at least our

395
00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:42,600
Speaker 1: next theory he fell on the gorge and went splat. Yeah.

396
00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:45,479
Speaker 1: Of course, as you know, some people believe this, including

397
00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:49,040
Speaker 1: the Chinese government. That's what China says, That's what says. Yeah,

398
00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:52,800
Speaker 1: it's plausible because the high Trail's what we've already said.

399
00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:55,760
Speaker 1: It's kind of scary, and people have died by the way.

400
00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:58,720
Speaker 1: Of course, one difference between those incidents and this is

401
00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:01,479
Speaker 1: that they found the bodies in the cases. Yeah, so

402
00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:03,120
Speaker 1: this will be this will be a first, but that's

403
00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:05,320
Speaker 1: not that doesn't make it completely out of the question, right,

404
00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:08,600
Speaker 1: But it's it's a gorge. It's not a you know,

405
00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:12,479
Speaker 1: a smooth surface. There's nooks and crannies, there's places for

406
00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:17,400
Speaker 1: a body to fall into, andre face, he gets stuck there,

407
00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:20,399
Speaker 1: that's true. And you know, a month goes by and

408
00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:24,439
Speaker 1: the local birds have been having a heyday with it.

409
00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:26,600
Speaker 1: You're not going to notice it anymore. It's just a

410
00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:32,920
Speaker 1: pile of stuff. Yeah, I know. So it's so that's possible. Uh.

411
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:37,119
Speaker 1: But David's father and his two brothers went to China.

412
00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:40,119
Speaker 1: His father's name is Roy, his brothers Michael and James.

413
00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:44,080
Speaker 1: They traveled there about a month after he disappeared and

414
00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:46,120
Speaker 1: retrace his steps. They want to they want to over

415
00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:50,439
Speaker 1: the trail, and they claim that the trail is actually

416
00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:52,960
Speaker 1: not that bad. And they also say they found witnesses.

417
00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:56,320
Speaker 1: We saw him after he left the trail and the gorge. Yeah,

418
00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:58,919
Speaker 1: that's what they say. So so then he made it

419
00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:02,600
Speaker 1: out of tiger leaping and gore intact. Yeah. They arrived

420
00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:06,560
Speaker 1: in Kao two on September twelfth, I believe, and the

421
00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:08,560
Speaker 1: m of the U. S Embassy had developed the roles

422
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:11,760
Speaker 1: of film that the Chinese found in the backpack. They

423
00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:14,800
Speaker 1: found a lot of shots from his travels with George Bailey,

424
00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:17,280
Speaker 1: but there were about four good shots that we had

425
00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:20,280
Speaker 1: to have been taken only days before. According to George Bailey,

426
00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:23,760
Speaker 1: the pictures were taken on August seventh and eighth, two

427
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:28,040
Speaker 1: thousand four, so just just a few days before he disappeared.

428
00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:31,439
Speaker 1: When they got there, they hired its betting guy named Sean,

429
00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:36,760
Speaker 1: who happens to own Seawan's guesthouse, Nentiger Leaping Gorge. Yeah,

430
00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:39,440
Speaker 1: and they also hired an interpreter. They sat on the

431
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:42,080
Speaker 1: high trail and as I said, they didn't find it

432
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:43,840
Speaker 1: to be as difficult to some people make it out

433
00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:45,480
Speaker 1: to be. But apparently these guys have a lot of

434
00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:49,200
Speaker 1: outdoors experience. Well I was gonna say, I know how

435
00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:53,080
Speaker 1: old is Roy. He's in his sixties now, is that

436
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:57,600
Speaker 1: about so? Yeah? So I know that not too long

437
00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:01,199
Speaker 1: after everything went down with their son, and he and

438
00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:06,440
Speaker 1: his wife went on another mission to somewhere in Africa,

439
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:12,040
Speaker 1: if I remember correctly, doing you know, their missionary duties,

440
00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:14,439
Speaker 1: which was not all just sitting around in front of

441
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:16,640
Speaker 1: a table and waving of people. They're like doing heavy

442
00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:20,800
Speaker 1: labor and stuff. So these people. They're tough stock. Yeah there, Yeah,

443
00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:23,960
Speaker 1: they did. They apparently do lots of backpacking and hiking

444
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:28,160
Speaker 1: and stuff like that. Worth reminding everyone, David is their family,

445
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:31,240
Speaker 1: so he would have been of the same. Yeah, he

446
00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:33,480
Speaker 1: had According to the family, he was an eagle scout

447
00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:37,359
Speaker 1: who had many years of experience with backpacking, and so

448
00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:39,919
Speaker 1: them finding it not so difficult would mean that he

449
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:42,359
Speaker 1: would likely have also found it not so difficult. Yeah,

450
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:48,000
Speaker 1: probably similar experience levels are competence. Yeah, anyway, they spent

451
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,919
Speaker 1: they traveled to the Gorge and uh, one of the

452
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:53,000
Speaker 1: first persons that they met they were they had they

453
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,160
Speaker 1: had made these placards that they put on their bodies

454
00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:58,160
Speaker 1: which had a picture blown a picture of David's face

455
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:02,159
Speaker 1: and also in English and Mandarin's missing trekker. And they

456
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:03,959
Speaker 1: talked to a lot of people. People would you know,

457
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:05,560
Speaker 1: walk up to them and try to be helpful. And

458
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:08,199
Speaker 1: they met this guide on the trail who was guiding

459
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:11,639
Speaker 1: some people through through the trail, and he said that

460
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:15,160
Speaker 1: he had seen David and he described he encountered this way.

461
00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:18,040
Speaker 1: He said that he had been hiking from west to

462
00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:20,479
Speaker 1: east in the gorge. So count two was in the

463
00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:23,359
Speaker 1: west where you start out and then it goes up

464
00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:25,800
Speaker 1: and over the mountains, then back down to what's called

465
00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:28,119
Speaker 1: the Lower Trail, which is actually a road. Used to

466
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:29,640
Speaker 1: be a trail. Now they made it into a road.

467
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:32,320
Speaker 1: And at that spot there's a guesthouse or a hostel

468
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:36,200
Speaker 1: called Tina's Guesthouse. So they were headed. They were headed

469
00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:39,160
Speaker 1: from west to east on the trail, and David caught

470
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:41,200
Speaker 1: up with them. He was with a Hong Kong couple

471
00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:44,960
Speaker 1: and he said that they chatted for a little bit

472
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:48,480
Speaker 1: in in Mandaroin, and he and David chatted. David and

473
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:50,720
Speaker 1: the Hong Kong couple would talk to each other and

474
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:53,600
Speaker 1: they would alternate talking in English so the Hong Kong

475
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,280
Speaker 1: people could practice their English, and they would switch to

476
00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:59,560
Speaker 1: Mandaaroin so he David could practice his Mandarin. So they

477
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:01,439
Speaker 1: had for three hours. So obviously this guy got a

478
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:03,280
Speaker 1: real good look at David. And then they went on

479
00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:06,720
Speaker 1: to Teain his guesthouse where they all spent the night. Um,

480
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:08,960
Speaker 1: so obviously, if that's true, then he made it out

481
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:12,040
Speaker 1: of the gorge. Okay, let me let me describe how

482
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,640
Speaker 1: they how they questioned people. They tried not to ask

483
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 1: leading questions or plant ideas so they first question was

484
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 1: is did you meet a white guy who spoke Chinese?

485
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:23,639
Speaker 1: And if somebody said yeah, I think I did, I remember,

486
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 1: And then they would ask for a description of his

487
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:31,160
Speaker 1: his high weight clothing, and if that was reasonable, they'd

488
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:33,120
Speaker 1: ask what was he wearing a pack of any SciTE

489
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 1: of any kind and asked him to describe the pack,

490
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:39,040
Speaker 1: the size, you know that, the color, and if if

491
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 1: their answers were all reasonable and believable, and then they

492
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:44,440
Speaker 1: would pull out the pictures and only then and showed

493
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:46,960
Speaker 1: them to the witness and so pictures in addition to

494
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:49,680
Speaker 1: the placard. Yeah, and the placard. Apparently the picture and

495
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:52,399
Speaker 1: the placard was not that great. It was was that

496
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:55,600
Speaker 1: intentional I'm guessing based on their questioning method. No, I

497
00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:57,480
Speaker 1: don't know if it was intentional or not. That was

498
00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:01,720
Speaker 1: just one of the most recent pictures available of him

499
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:04,119
Speaker 1: and it wasn't that high resolution. So so when they

500
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:05,520
Speaker 1: blew it up and put it on the placard, it

501
00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:08,520
Speaker 1: just wasn't that great. But the travel photos that were

502
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:10,640
Speaker 1: in the roles of film. Turns out several of those

503
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:14,080
Speaker 1: were very good, much better quality. So they'd show these

504
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 1: of these people and then people would I say, yeah,

505
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 1: that's the guy, or no, that's not the guy. But yeah,

506
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:20,919
Speaker 1: and so David, David obviously is going to stand out

507
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:22,439
Speaker 1: a little bit if you talk to him, because if

508
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:24,879
Speaker 1: you're Chinese, you're probably not used to running into people

509
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 1: white Americans who speak Chinese. Yeah, that would be abnormal. Yeah,

510
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:32,360
Speaker 1: it would be kind of abnormal. Um. The Stentdons continued

511
00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:34,919
Speaker 1: on the trail to the end, stopped at Tina's guesthouse.

512
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 1: Nobody there remembered David, so they asked if they could

513
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:40,640
Speaker 1: look at the register or the guest lugs to see

514
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:43,359
Speaker 1: if he had signed in. And Uh, at this point,

515
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:46,360
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm getting this from from some of their

516
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:49,680
Speaker 1: They actually wrote some long emails, which they eventually posted

517
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:53,159
Speaker 1: on their website. Uh, they went through the records. They

518
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 1: found the records to be in somewhat somewhat of disarray,

519
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 1: and there were no records for the tant or eleventh

520
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:04,159
Speaker 1: of August in there. They've been confiscated. Um, you know,

521
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,200
Speaker 1: I don't know, because a guy named Chris Vogel wrote

522
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 1: a good article about this whole thing and Outside magazine,

523
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:15,200
Speaker 1: and he said he said that in the article that

524
00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 1: these things have been confiscated and then they got the

525
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,040
Speaker 1: logs have been confiscated for the month of August. But

526
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:22,679
Speaker 1: what what they said at the time was that they

527
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:24,960
Speaker 1: didn't say anything about the police confiscating them. They just

528
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:27,040
Speaker 1: said that the tenth and the elevens were missing. It

529
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:32,200
Speaker 1: sounds like their logs were pretty haphazard at the best. Yeah,

530
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:34,919
Speaker 1: it sounds like yeah, So, I mean that's what the

531
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:37,399
Speaker 1: Staton said that I'm guessing it's not a log book

532
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 1: as much as a series of leaflets or sheets of paper. Probably, Yeah,

533
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:44,040
Speaker 1: they said to quote the Snettons in their email. As

534
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 1: it's a case with so many guest houses that we

535
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 1: have visited, the record keeping is not always well organized

536
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 1: or up to date. Um, sometimes records have been delivered

537
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 1: to the police and sometimes they are missing. So and

538
00:28:57,760 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 1: I'm not sure. I'm trying to as kind of a

539
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:01,720
Speaker 1: police day. So I'm not sure if they have to

540
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:04,800
Speaker 1: save all these things for the police or that take

541
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:07,400
Speaker 1: them to the police, or or if the police took

542
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:09,880
Speaker 1: it when they were doing their original search, yeah, and

543
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:12,040
Speaker 1: then just never returned them. It could have been that.

544
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm not sure if there was no

545
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 1: if he didn't sign and I'm not sure why they

546
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:20,040
Speaker 1: bothered taking him except his evidence maybe, but then evidence

547
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 1: that he hadn't been there had to be right about

548
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:24,640
Speaker 1: the fact that he fell into the gorge. Yeah, I know,

549
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:26,560
Speaker 1: but you would think they would just look and see

550
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:28,240
Speaker 1: if he signed in and then give him back balogues,

551
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:31,959
Speaker 1: right unless he did sign in, huh and if they

552
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:35,040
Speaker 1: were like they wanted to cover it up. Yeah, possible.

553
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:39,280
Speaker 1: We'll talk a little bit more on that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

554
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 1: They did find another place by the way, and Shangra Law.

555
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:44,120
Speaker 1: There's a town. I forgot the original name. It was

556
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 1: renamed as Shango Law in two thousand and one. I

557
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 1: know that that. I gotta tell you. Reading about Shangra

558
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:53,560
Speaker 1: lass Anger lash Anger Law, really I got I was

559
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:55,800
Speaker 1: so weird because I'm like, wait a minute, no, I

560
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:59,440
Speaker 1: grew up hearing about Shangri Lab being this mystical place

561
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 1: that nobody he found, and now it's a town in

562
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:06,959
Speaker 1: Tiger Leaping Gorge. What it really it's weird for anybody

563
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:09,720
Speaker 1: who has grown up learning that is that because it's

564
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 1: from what is the book? And from nine three Lost Horizons?

565
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:15,960
Speaker 1: I think that's yeah. Yeah, they at least that was

566
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:18,040
Speaker 1: the name of the movie. Maybe the book was something different,

567
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 1: but yeah, I guess they renamed it that for touristic reasons. Yeah,

568
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 1: it's totally why. It's a little tacky, asked me. But

569
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 1: like the what was the movie the River Quai? They

570
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 1: shot at the movie in the wrong place, and so

571
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 1: the government went ahead and renamed a village so that

572
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 1: it was in the right place according to the movie

573
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 1: for tourism reasons. It's not the first time this kind

574
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 1: of stuff has happened. That's hilarious. I didn't know about

575
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,880
Speaker 1: that any way. Back to back to Shango Law. They

576
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 1: did find a place called there was They eventually went

577
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 1: on and and to Shangra La and I'll tell you

578
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:54,120
Speaker 1: how they got there. But this this place called the

579
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 1: De King Tibetan Area International Guesthouse where some of the

580
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:01,760
Speaker 1: women who worked there I do David and said that

581
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 1: he had spent the night there in August the thirteen.

582
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 1: And she was not able to show the records because

583
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:09,520
Speaker 1: she did say that the police had taken all records

584
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:13,239
Speaker 1: regarding foreign visitors. And whether that's just routine or if

585
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 1: they took him because they were because of David's just disappearance,

586
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:20,959
Speaker 1: I'm not really sure. Anyway that staying on the trail.

587
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 1: When you get to the trail, you can turn left

588
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:29,040
Speaker 1: or right and it's super familiar. Yeah, yeah, yeah, when

589
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 1: you got off the trail and you wind up on

590
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:34,880
Speaker 1: the lower trail, which is the road. And so he's

591
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 1: still along the river, So he still could have wind

592
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:40,479
Speaker 1: up floating in the river at this point. Yeah. So

593
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:43,040
Speaker 1: he could have turned right and gone down the road

594
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:46,960
Speaker 1: to Kioto and gotten his backpack back, or he could

595
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 1: have turned left and headed northeast to a village called

596
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 1: Habba and some other villages beyond there. Then that that

597
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 1: road eventually leads to Shaka Law, and so the family

598
00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:58,320
Speaker 1: decided to turn left and go to Habba just on

599
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:00,320
Speaker 1: a hunch, and two kilometers out the road they got

600
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 1: to Shawn's Guesthouse, which is where their business at their

601
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:06,959
Speaker 1: guide owns. And by the way, Sean himself didn't remember

602
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 1: actually seeing David one because David actually stopped in just briefly.

603
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:11,840
Speaker 1: He didn't spend the night there or anything like that.

604
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:13,600
Speaker 1: I think he stopped in and maybe had a little food.

605
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 1: But a couple of employees at Shawn's guesthouse did remember

606
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:21,600
Speaker 1: seeing David, and then from there they continued on to

607
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 1: the village of Habo and canvas the town and eventually

608
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 1: found out a storekeeper who had who positively identified David

609
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 1: again to using their stringent methods of you know, describe

610
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 1: him first before we're showing the pictures. Uh, they can't,

611
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:35,920
Speaker 1: they can't. They went on by a hired car and bus,

612
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:38,600
Speaker 1: et cetera until they got to Shango Law and the

613
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:40,600
Speaker 1: first day they had no luck. Second day they found

614
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 1: a Korean restaurant called the Yak Bar. And knowing that,

615
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 1: David like, I know, I understand why it's named that,

616
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:52,680
Speaker 1: but it doesn't sound like I went to the Yak

617
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:58,040
Speaker 1: Bard made yak Yeah, I know. Well, I'm twelve. I

618
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:02,960
Speaker 1: can't help it. I'm fourteen. In the is funny. Yeah, yeah, Anyway,

619
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:06,000
Speaker 1: the act Bar. I wouldn't name my bar that, but

620
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 1: but anyway, the owner of the act Bar did remember

621
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:10,960
Speaker 1: David coming into the restaurant three times in a two

622
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:14,560
Speaker 1: days period about a month before. Again, she remembered him

623
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 1: very distinctly. I mean she positively because he because she

624
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:20,360
Speaker 1: was Korean. He insisted on speaking to her in Korean

625
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 1: and they had some good conversations. And once again, you know,

626
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 1: white American who speaks Korean in China and China that's

627
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:30,560
Speaker 1: stick in your mind. Yeah, And she very possitively identified

628
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:32,760
Speaker 1: him and said there's no evidence that David was in

629
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 1: Shankra Law before he went to Tiger Leaping Gorge. Remember

630
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:38,200
Speaker 1: his email to his mother says, I'm leaving Lijiang on

631
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:41,240
Speaker 1: the bus to go to type of Tiger Leaping gorge, right,

632
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:45,080
Speaker 1: so he must this must have been after he left

633
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 1: the gorge, so he couldn't have lined up dead in

634
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 1: the river, right right. Yeah, I don't know, although this

635
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 1: does bring up a because he was seen with a

636
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:57,800
Speaker 1: with an attractive woman at that point. Yeah. Apparently she

637
00:33:57,880 --> 00:33:59,800
Speaker 1: said that he came in at one point in one

638
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 1: of his visits, it might have been even the last one,

639
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 1: and he was with an Asian woman whom probably must

640
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:09,120
Speaker 1: have been an American something somebody. I don't you know,

641
00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:10,880
Speaker 1: when when you travel by yourself, you tend to be

642
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:13,879
Speaker 1: friend people sometimes, you know, more likely to start talking

643
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:19,520
Speaker 1: to people. And she was probably American and probably probably

644
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:22,399
Speaker 1: didn't speak Chinese or Korean or anything, and so that's

645
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:25,640
Speaker 1: that's what that's what The owner. Her name was Jang

646
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:28,360
Speaker 1: Yao Finn and she said that he did come in

647
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:31,600
Speaker 1: one time with an attractive Asian woman who did not

648
00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:34,719
Speaker 1: appear to speak Korean or Chinese because David had to

649
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:39,040
Speaker 1: translate for her. So, so if from English state Korean? Yeah,

650
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:41,120
Speaker 1: so this might be the attractive woman that they talked

651
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:46,440
Speaker 1: about in the Endkan News article. But she didn't report

652
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:49,440
Speaker 1: that David and the Asian girl were like affectionate or

653
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:52,080
Speaker 1: holding hands. It was probably just one of those things

654
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:53,920
Speaker 1: where you're traveling and you get kind of acquainted with

655
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 1: somebody for a little bit, right. Yeah. And also, by

656
00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:59,320
Speaker 1: the way, another employee at the same restaurant remember David too,

657
00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:03,560
Speaker 1: so uh, and some other people around shang seeing David.

658
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:05,920
Speaker 1: So I think the Stentons did a pretty good job

659
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:08,960
Speaker 1: improving that David didn't die on the high trail and

660
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 1: tiger leaping gorge. Yeah. And also, by the way, if

661
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:14,560
Speaker 1: you if you'd taken he probably would have wound up

662
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 1: in the low road on the low trail, which is

663
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 1: a road, as I said, instead of plunging into the river.

664
00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:20,120
Speaker 1: So I don't know, how what do you guys think

665
00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:22,520
Speaker 1: of the theory they died in the garge? I got

666
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:24,799
Speaker 1: to give it a quarter star. It's just night and

667
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:28,320
Speaker 1: any an, he thought, Steve, No, No, I mean it's

668
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:32,759
Speaker 1: the evidence is there to disprove the fall I think so.

669
00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:36,320
Speaker 1: I mean there's just too there's too many things because

670
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:39,400
Speaker 1: he was too unique of a carecter. Yeah. Yeah, if

671
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 1: they had found just one person, just one witness, and

672
00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 1: I'd say, okay, well maybe you know, but yeah, they

673
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:47,839
Speaker 1: seem to have found quite a few. And just let

674
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:50,919
Speaker 1: me show you here. You read the report right that.

675
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:53,680
Speaker 1: I read parts of it. I didn't read for the

676
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:56,360
Speaker 1: entire thing. Okay, I'm going to hold this up to

677
00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:59,520
Speaker 1: the microphone so you can see it. This is they

678
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:02,440
Speaker 1: list the witnesses, and this is their their ranking system.

679
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:06,160
Speaker 1: Looks like a QR code. Yeah, they're yeah, and so

680
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:10,799
Speaker 1: based on all the various criteria for credibility, um, they

681
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:13,240
Speaker 1: ranked them on a scale of one to ten using

682
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:16,560
Speaker 1: using this little table here. As you can see. Yeah,

683
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 1: but as you can see, they were. They were very

684
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:23,759
Speaker 1: pretty credible, very stringent, and you know they didn't if

685
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:25,719
Speaker 1: somebody comes up and just says, yeah, I think I

686
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:28,399
Speaker 1: saw somebody like that. That ain't good enough. I mean

687
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 1: you had to really jump over a bunch of hurdles

688
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:32,960
Speaker 1: to actually be one of these people. They called, you know,

689
00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:35,839
Speaker 1: what they call a sighting of David. Well, and that's

690
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:38,400
Speaker 1: the problem with you know, any kind of way. We

691
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:41,919
Speaker 1: talked about this so many times, witness testimonies. Oh yeah,

692
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:45,480
Speaker 1: I saw a guy who looked like that. I think

693
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 1: maybe I'm positive kind of sure's yeah, absolutely, no, yeah,

694
00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:56,000
Speaker 1: I mean that's just the way it goes. Yeah. Yeah.

695
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:58,880
Speaker 1: Memory is fallible. Oh yeah, it is. I think I

696
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:00,640
Speaker 1: think one of the advent I just ahead in the

697
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:04,040
Speaker 1: case of David again, it's the language thing. Yeah that's huge, Yeah,

698
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:07,840
Speaker 1: that's real big. Yeah. Okay, So anyway, so much for

699
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:10,800
Speaker 1: that theory. He did not die into gorge. You what

700
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:17,080
Speaker 1: are you ranking that, sir? Of course I was busy

701
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:20,080
Speaker 1: looking at the map in front of me. Okay, I know.

702
00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:23,840
Speaker 1: Our next theory, human trafficking. Here's something from the CIA

703
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:28,200
Speaker 1: World Factbook. Actually, Devin, you want to read that? Why not, Steve? Okay, Steve,

704
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:31,320
Speaker 1: you want to read that? No, No, I'll do it anyway, okay.

705
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:36,640
Speaker 1: China is a source, transit and destination country for men, women,

706
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:41,000
Speaker 1: and children subjected to sex trafficking and forced labor. Chinese

707
00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:45,120
Speaker 1: adults and children are forced into prostitution in various forms

708
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:48,560
Speaker 1: of forced labor. Yeah, why did I have to read that?

709
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 1: That was the most depressing statement. Yeah, I just I

710
00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:55,279
Speaker 1: just wanted people to live, to be able to listen

711
00:37:55,280 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 1: to other voices besides me. But it's estimated. I'm not

712
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:03,799
Speaker 1: sure how reliably that ten to twenty people a year

713
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 1: abducted and sent off to do forced labor or prostitution

714
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:12,239
Speaker 1: or whatever is in China. Yeah, okay, that's about there.

715
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:15,239
Speaker 1: Abducted and brought into China. They're abducted and shipped out

716
00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 1: of China, you know, or whatever. But I don't know,

717
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:22,839
Speaker 1: but like why white American? Yeah, well that's the whole thing.

718
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:26,160
Speaker 1: I think that they would be less likely to because

719
00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:28,279
Speaker 1: of attracts attention. I just threw this one in here

720
00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:34,439
Speaker 1: to have shre randomness. Okay, yeah, cheer randomness. So yeah,

721
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 1: this this doesn't write too high. I'm going to give

722
00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:42,160
Speaker 1: this two stars, probably probably more than it deserves. Yeah, alright,

723
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:45,600
Speaker 1: our last theory, this is an interesting one. He was

724
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:49,800
Speaker 1: abducted going the North Koreans. The last sighting of David

725
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:53,680
Speaker 1: Snedden was August fourteen, which was and it was at

726
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 1: the Yak Bar run now or one o'clock. He was

727
00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:00,719
Speaker 1: leaving apparently for Lee Jiang on a bus and then

728
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:02,680
Speaker 1: he was going to stop off in Kyo two and

729
00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:05,759
Speaker 1: get his backpack, of course, and actually he didn't say

730
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:10,480
Speaker 1: that to anybody, but obviously that ob yeah, that was

731
00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:12,759
Speaker 1: that was on the way to you know, to the

732
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:16,520
Speaker 1: Jiang and and so he never got the backpacks. So

733
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:19,560
Speaker 1: it's we have to kind of conclude that he disappeared

734
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:22,960
Speaker 1: either in Shango Law or in Kyo two or somewhere

735
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:25,840
Speaker 1: in between on the day of the fourteenth, since he

736
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:28,360
Speaker 1: was never seen or heard him about that. The statons

737
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:31,560
Speaker 1: seemed to be pretty intelligent, rational people, and they've already

738
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:33,880
Speaker 1: made a good case that he didn't disappear voluntarily, and

739
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:36,200
Speaker 1: that executive report that I talked about, they didn't make

740
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:38,239
Speaker 1: a good case. And of course we didn't rank that

741
00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:42,680
Speaker 1: particular theory very highly ourselves, right. They also established that

742
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:45,360
Speaker 1: he couldn't have died in the Gorge, and so their conclusion,

743
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:47,920
Speaker 1: and this was in late two thousand four when they

744
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:50,440
Speaker 1: wrote the report, was that David had been taken and

745
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:53,399
Speaker 1: was being held against his will. But at that time

746
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:56,880
Speaker 1: they had no idea who. They said their report to

747
00:39:56,920 --> 00:40:00,360
Speaker 1: the State Department, by the way, like seventy four pages

748
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:02,600
Speaker 1: it was pretty thorough. It has pictures and maps and

749
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:05,720
Speaker 1: graphs and all kinds of stuff. They they were pretty

750
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:08,080
Speaker 1: thorough and it was actually very helpful for me and

751
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:10,480
Speaker 1: putting all my facts together. It was it was it's

752
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:13,600
Speaker 1: worth looking at. They sent their report to the State Department,

753
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:16,840
Speaker 1: and after months of pleading, the State Department got the

754
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:21,160
Speaker 1: Chinese government to launch a new investigation that they reinterviewed

755
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:25,040
Speaker 1: all the witnesses at the Students found and it turns

756
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:28,120
Speaker 1: out all the witnesses changed their stories just like that.

757
00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:31,359
Speaker 1: They all they were all positive before that they had

758
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:33,600
Speaker 1: seen David when they were talking to the fair, talking

759
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:35,279
Speaker 1: to the family, and now at this point they're saying

760
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:37,200
Speaker 1: they're not really sure. Some of them were saying they

761
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 1: don't remember it at all, really kind of hanky talking

762
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:43,640
Speaker 1: to an authority figure. Yeah, well that might be it,

763
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:46,919
Speaker 1: you know, it might be that. You know, again, there's

764
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:49,960
Speaker 1: been a lot of allegations of cover up and stuff

765
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:52,719
Speaker 1: like that. But at the same time, and in some

766
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:56,399
Speaker 1: of these countries, when the government shows up, um, you're

767
00:40:56,440 --> 00:40:59,120
Speaker 1: more likely say I don't really know because you don't

768
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:00,759
Speaker 1: really want to get involve. I don't really want to

769
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:04,120
Speaker 1: get involved, so you know, there's it's hard to say,

770
00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:07,239
Speaker 1: but it's people have alleged that the Chinese government is

771
00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:09,880
Speaker 1: actually trying to cover this up. Well, the weird, the

772
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:14,160
Speaker 1: weird shift of story from witnesses, such a dramatic shift.

773
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:17,200
Speaker 1: I can see why people would say that. But I

774
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:20,319
Speaker 1: can also see why you would do that in that

775
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:25,080
Speaker 1: situation when suddenly you're faced with a couple of Chinese

776
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:30,279
Speaker 1: military men or policemen and they've got that look on

777
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:34,960
Speaker 1: their face, like, what did you see that you shouldn't

778
00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:38,160
Speaker 1: have I didn't see anything. I saw nothing. I haven't

779
00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:40,880
Speaker 1: no idea what's going on? Yeah, I live in a

780
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:45,120
Speaker 1: state of see something, say nothing. On the other hand, though,

781
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:49,960
Speaker 1: it could be that it's incredibly frustrating for the investigators

782
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:53,640
Speaker 1: in China, the Chinese investigators who show up and say,

783
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:55,759
Speaker 1: all right, like, tell us your story. It sounds like

784
00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:57,800
Speaker 1: you have something to tell us about this thing that

785
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:00,239
Speaker 1: can help us, you know, crack this mystery. Oh been

786
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:07,000
Speaker 1: witnesses suddenly go no, no, I don't know nothing. I'm

787
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:10,560
Speaker 1: god of fear, whether it's real or perceived. Yeah, so,

788
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:12,480
Speaker 1: you know. So it's hard to say if there's a

789
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:16,000
Speaker 1: sinister cover up going on or not quite possibly well, yeah,

790
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:18,600
Speaker 1: but anyway, the case sat there for a long time,

791
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:21,080
Speaker 1: and then in April two thousand eleven, the students got

792
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:23,920
Speaker 1: a phone call from a guy named Chuck Downs, who

793
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:27,319
Speaker 1: at that time ran an organization called the Committee for

794
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:30,959
Speaker 1: Human Rights in North Korea. He's he says he has

795
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:35,279
Speaker 1: left that position, but I think he's still involved in

796
00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:39,040
Speaker 1: North Korean issues. But Chuckdowns told the Snatans that he

797
00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:42,160
Speaker 1: believed that David had been abducted by the North Koreans,

798
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:44,760
Speaker 1: which does make some sense because the North Koreans actually

799
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:47,400
Speaker 1: kind of are in the habit of abducting people stuff

800
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:51,560
Speaker 1: like that, lots and lots of it, mostly Japanese and

801
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:54,919
Speaker 1: South Koreans. Japanese especially because they forced them to teach

802
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:58,200
Speaker 1: English to the North Korean Americans. There have been a

803
00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:01,239
Speaker 1: few Americans, some Europeans, Middle Eastern areas, all kinds of

804
00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:03,799
Speaker 1: people have been kidnapped by the North Koreans. Did you

805
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:09,239
Speaker 1: know that the the Um North Korean's own own are

806
00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:13,600
Speaker 1: currently holding the only US naval ship to be like captured.

807
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:17,480
Speaker 1: They still have the Pueblo. They still have it, Yeah,

808
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:21,319
Speaker 1: which is crazy. Yeah, I you know, I've often I've

809
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:23,600
Speaker 1: up and wondered why the world puts up with North Korea.

810
00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:25,920
Speaker 1: I mean, after after they several years ago when they

811
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:30,759
Speaker 1: sank that South Korean warship just unprovoked, they just torpedoed it,

812
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:33,600
Speaker 1: sank and killed a bunch of people. I really, I

813
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:36,239
Speaker 1: really felt like the US and the Japanese and South

814
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:40,120
Speaker 1: Korean should have gotten together and just sunk their entire navy.

815
00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:42,480
Speaker 1: I'm not joking. I mean that's that the snake of

816
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:46,400
Speaker 1: sink every submarine at the very least they do some

817
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:49,359
Speaker 1: they do some pretty amazing stuff. I mean that the

818
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:52,560
Speaker 1: American that I was thinking of was gosh, what was

819
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:57,400
Speaker 1: it was the late fifties, was a couple of Americans

820
00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:01,959
Speaker 1: that crossed into North Korea through through the demilitarized Zone

821
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:05,160
Speaker 1: thinking that they would get out of the war because

822
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:08,960
Speaker 1: the North Koreans would deport them to Russia and become

823
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:13,520
Speaker 1: prisoners of war and they get shipped back home and instead,

824
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:16,560
Speaker 1: I think one of them, the one who actually finally

825
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:18,919
Speaker 1: got out, he didn't leave North Korea till like two

826
00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:24,319
Speaker 1: thousand and four exactly, and his wife is Japanese and

827
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:27,040
Speaker 1: they were basically put together. I think he was like

828
00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:29,399
Speaker 1: a thirty or forty year old man by the time

829
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:31,919
Speaker 1: they were put together, and she was a twentysomething. Yeah,

830
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:36,080
Speaker 1: they basically just and they probably kidnapped her. She was

831
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:39,600
Speaker 1: she was she had been forcibly taken. Yeah, he was.

832
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:42,239
Speaker 1: I believe. I believe he was one of their one

833
00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:45,600
Speaker 1: of their principal English teachers, teaching their spies all about

834
00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:49,600
Speaker 1: English and America. Was significantly. He finally got out of

835
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:52,839
Speaker 1: North Korea, I think in July two thousand four, which

836
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:59,120
Speaker 1: is a month before David disappeared. Yeah, I did another

837
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:04,279
Speaker 1: English teacher. I hadn't even made that connection. Yeah. Yeah,

838
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:08,600
Speaker 1: point that lost Yeah. Yeah, they no longer had their

839
00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:12,799
Speaker 1: main English speaking yeah, to teach everybody. Yeah, I mean

840
00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:15,480
Speaker 1: if they had gotten wind of David Snedden with his

841
00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:18,279
Speaker 1: language skills and also he would have been a great

842
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:21,319
Speaker 1: teacher for teaching people about American customs and society and

843
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:23,680
Speaker 1: stuff like that on a certain level. Yeah, you could

844
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:27,520
Speaker 1: at least teach them to impersonate Mormons, that's true. He

845
00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:32,160
Speaker 1: would know English, he would know general customers, have general knowledge,

846
00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:35,440
Speaker 1: which is just invaluable. And I'm sorry, but we live

847
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:38,560
Speaker 1: in an internet age. Even the government of Korea is

848
00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:40,160
Speaker 1: going to have the Internet to be able to use

849
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:42,160
Speaker 1: for their spies even though they don't give it to

850
00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:47,960
Speaker 1: their people. Maybe yeah, not sure. Dishes everywhere, Yeah, yeah

851
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:50,520
Speaker 1: they I'm sure that. I'm sure that Kim Jong and

852
00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:54,520
Speaker 1: at least gets access to the Internet. Yeah. So yeah,

853
00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:58,120
Speaker 1: he must because he found out about the interview. So yeah, yeah,

854
00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:00,439
Speaker 1: that's true. That's a funny thing with the view, isn't

855
00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:05,160
Speaker 1: it didn't even watch that. I didn't. I didn't watch,

856
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:08,920
Speaker 1: but now I heard they were upset about upset they

857
00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:10,839
Speaker 1: were happy, But yeah, I wonder how they felt about

858
00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:17,760
Speaker 1: Team America World Police. I go back to the story

859
00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:22,280
Speaker 1: for Yeah, so the actual evidence that Snedden was abducted

860
00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:24,359
Speaker 1: by the North Korean. So there's not a lot. There

861
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:28,479
Speaker 1: is just one little bit, uh to May two thousand twelve,

862
00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:32,000
Speaker 1: a Japanese group called the National Association for the Rescue

863
00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:35,520
Speaker 1: of Japanese Kidnapped by North Korea. That's an actual thing. Yeah,

864
00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:39,120
Speaker 1: that's a that's a long name there. But in May

865
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:42,719
Speaker 1: two thousand twelve, they put some interesting information on their

866
00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:45,960
Speaker 1: website in which they said a North Korean defector who

867
00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:49,760
Speaker 1: had previously provided reliable information to them, had obtained Chinese

868
00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:52,520
Speaker 1: security documents indicating that the twenty three or twenty four

869
00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:56,920
Speaker 1: year old American student was arrested in Yunnan Province on

870
00:46:57,000 --> 00:47:00,400
Speaker 1: charges of helping illegal residence and that he ended up

871
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:03,279
Speaker 1: in the hands of five North Korean secret agents. What

872
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:06,279
Speaker 1: is it? What is that helping illegal residents? Bit mean,

873
00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:10,480
Speaker 1: I'm not just heard several interpretations. It's kind of it's

874
00:47:10,520 --> 00:47:12,799
Speaker 1: kind of vague. I mean, apparently there are there are

875
00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:17,840
Speaker 1: illegal North Korean immigrants in there. They escape the winters

876
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:20,400
Speaker 1: Gun railroads. Yeah, that kind of thing, an underground railroad,

877
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:25,000
Speaker 1: because they escape Obviously in Korea, you're not going to

878
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:28,800
Speaker 1: escape into the South over the d m Z right, yeah,

879
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:31,880
Speaker 1: and so and and so. The only other way to

880
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:34,200
Speaker 1: do it is to escape across the border into China.

881
00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:36,279
Speaker 1: And then from China you have to travel so you

882
00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:38,920
Speaker 1: can get to a friendlier country where you can escape

883
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:42,480
Speaker 1: from them there and go to South Korea. Um In

884
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:46,640
Speaker 1: I believe it was two thousand four, for example, there

885
00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:50,839
Speaker 1: were Vietnam allowed more than four hundred North Korean refugees

886
00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:54,080
Speaker 1: to leave Vietnam and go to South Korea, which apparently

887
00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:56,600
Speaker 1: upset the North Koreans quite a bit. I can see

888
00:47:56,600 --> 00:47:59,160
Speaker 1: why they'd be upset about that they don't want their

889
00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:00,920
Speaker 1: people to leave. Well, you know what I gotta say

890
00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:03,839
Speaker 1: that if if your country is such a frigging paradise,

891
00:48:04,520 --> 00:48:08,600
Speaker 1: why do you have to hold everybody a prisoner? I'm

892
00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:11,719
Speaker 1: gonna sh my mouth. Yeah, okay, okay, but anyway, Yeah,

893
00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:14,479
Speaker 1: so this happened again. Happened in August two thousand four

894
00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:18,520
Speaker 1: in Yunan Province, Uh, to a white American around twenty

895
00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:22,240
Speaker 1: four years old who was a student. Could it be uh,

896
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:25,200
Speaker 1: this is in Kunming where this happened. Of course, if

897
00:48:25,239 --> 00:48:27,400
Speaker 1: that is actually true, and then what that means is

898
00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:29,600
Speaker 1: that that would mean the Chinese government had to have

899
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:32,759
Speaker 1: been involved, because if he had been kun Ming, that

900
00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:34,439
Speaker 1: would have mean he would have stepped off in Kio

901
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:37,920
Speaker 1: two and picked up his backpack, because Kyoto was on

902
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:39,600
Speaker 1: his way to lee Jiang, which is on his way

903
00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:41,319
Speaker 1: on the way to Kunming, which is where he needed

904
00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:44,960
Speaker 1: to catch to catch this um his flight. Yeah, kind

905
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:50,240
Speaker 1: of a straight line basically. Yeah. Yeah, so since nobody

906
00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:53,840
Speaker 1: if if this report is actually true, it kind of

907
00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:57,279
Speaker 1: had to have been David because there's there haven't be

908
00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:01,000
Speaker 1: any other any other American tourists who disappeared in China

909
00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:03,960
Speaker 1: and China. These guys apparently, according to these documents, that

910
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:07,200
Speaker 1: Chinese arrested him in August, held him for about a month,

911
00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:10,759
Speaker 1: and then either let him go or sold him to

912
00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:13,800
Speaker 1: eventually sold his information to the Koreans for a bribe,

913
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:16,840
Speaker 1: or maybe for a bribe they just turned him straight

914
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:21,640
Speaker 1: over to the Koreans. Yeah, and what and and we

915
00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:26,120
Speaker 1: have nothing that indicates a who that person is and

916
00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:28,080
Speaker 1: be if that really happened, As far as I know,

917
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:30,000
Speaker 1: we have nothing. Yeah, I just want to I just

918
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:33,160
Speaker 1: want to make sure. I'm like, well, let's start going

919
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:36,640
Speaker 1: through you know, let's I hadn't even thought about looking

920
00:49:36,719 --> 00:49:40,320
Speaker 1: for anybody else who had gone missing in that general

921
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:45,920
Speaker 1: area for anything. Yeah, I think that if they're correct

922
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:49,919
Speaker 1: that this was an American student and he had disappeared

923
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:52,440
Speaker 1: and it wasn't David, then we would we would know

924
00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:55,520
Speaker 1: something about that. I mean, some other American student had

925
00:49:55,520 --> 00:49:58,120
Speaker 1: disappeared in China, we would we would have heard about it. Yeah,

926
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:00,320
Speaker 1: I'll be honest. Though it could have has been a

927
00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:03,440
Speaker 1: white guy, and they everybody just said, well he was

928
00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:05,960
Speaker 1: an American, he was white. Yeah, it could have been

929
00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:08,520
Speaker 1: a britty but I mean it's not just I mean

930
00:50:08,560 --> 00:50:12,359
Speaker 1: it's like, um, it's it was a twenty four year

931
00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:15,319
Speaker 1: old or twenty four year old American. Again, no, no

932
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:18,920
Speaker 1: Americans disappeared in China in two thousand four other than

933
00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:23,399
Speaker 1: David Steadon. Right, so yeah, So of course this report

934
00:50:23,480 --> 00:50:26,439
Speaker 1: is not necessarily true, right. It could be. It could

935
00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:30,160
Speaker 1: be distorted, It could be completely fabricated, could be whitewashed,

936
00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:32,640
Speaker 1: it could be. I mean, we don't, we don't entirely know.

937
00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:36,320
Speaker 1: But I did read an article, uh which actually, actually,

938
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:38,480
Speaker 1: by the way, I got quite a bit of information

939
00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:40,680
Speaker 1: from and I rely on it quite a bit for

940
00:50:40,719 --> 00:50:43,600
Speaker 1: our report here, not quite so much as the family's report,

941
00:50:43,640 --> 00:50:45,799
Speaker 1: but I have relied on it. With this guy named

942
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:48,520
Speaker 1: Chris Vogel wrote this article which I've mentioned already in

943
00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:52,400
Speaker 1: Outside Online. You guys read that article, right, yeah, good article,

944
00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:54,880
Speaker 1: right yeah, And he wrote an article about Snead and

945
00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:58,560
Speaker 1: then he uh, he said in May two thousand thirteen,

946
00:50:58,920 --> 00:51:01,560
Speaker 1: he had an opportunity. You talked to a Japanese cabinet

947
00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:05,200
Speaker 1: minister about the association that's that's the association of you know,

948
00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:08,160
Speaker 1: people people in support of kidnap Japanese by the North

949
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:12,080
Speaker 1: Koreans except that side. You got that wrong National Association

950
00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:16,600
Speaker 1: for the Rescue of Japanese kidnapped by North Korea. There

951
00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:18,080
Speaker 1: you go, I just didn't. I don't know how you

952
00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:21,440
Speaker 1: couldn't remember that. I know, it's like it's talking about

953
00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:28,040
Speaker 1: three sentences long. So yeah, So he talked to this

954
00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:32,640
Speaker 1: minister about the associate that the association's information. The minister's

955
00:51:32,719 --> 00:51:35,920
Speaker 1: name is is Kaiji for yeah. He said that he

956
00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:39,920
Speaker 1: believes that the association's information is very credible. He also

957
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:43,840
Speaker 1: said that the Prime Minister of Japan, Shenzo Abe, also

958
00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:47,400
Speaker 1: believes what the association is saying is true. So this

959
00:51:47,480 --> 00:51:49,080
Speaker 1: is these are people at the top of the Japanese

960
00:51:49,080 --> 00:51:52,719
Speaker 1: government think. He also said something, um, the minister said

961
00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:56,120
Speaker 1: something in the order of that the Americans, the American

962
00:51:56,120 --> 00:52:00,560
Speaker 1: government should be doing more to look into David Steddon's case. Okay,

963
00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:04,240
Speaker 1: So I just want to interject a little bit here though,

964
00:52:04,520 --> 00:52:10,600
Speaker 1: is that at this point in time, Japan has it

965
00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:15,719
Speaker 1: out for North Korea for taking people because it was

966
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:19,960
Speaker 1: right around this time that Kim Jong ill admitted to

967
00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:24,799
Speaker 1: kidnapping Japanese citizens. I believe it. It wasn't it was

968
00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:28,120
Speaker 1: who was he talking, dude? Do you remember this, Joe

969
00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:31,480
Speaker 1: or Devon. He was talking to somebody specifically, and he

970
00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:35,640
Speaker 1: was trying to foster relations between his country and Japan,

971
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:40,120
Speaker 1: and the topic came up, and the interpretations that I've

972
00:52:40,160 --> 00:52:44,279
Speaker 1: read was that he decided that by admitting it, he

973
00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:47,000
Speaker 1: would be admitting it and then we would all just

974
00:52:47,080 --> 00:52:50,640
Speaker 1: sweep it under the carpet and everything would be fine.

975
00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:54,680
Speaker 1: And so he said, yes, we kidnapped thirteen people over

976
00:52:54,760 --> 00:53:01,919
Speaker 1: the years from your country, and did we totally did that?

977
00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:06,200
Speaker 1: But opties, Now can we talk about some trade negotiations?

978
00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:11,560
Speaker 1: And of course that got out and the public lost

979
00:53:11,680 --> 00:53:15,160
Speaker 1: their minds. Can you blame them, No, not at all.

980
00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:19,720
Speaker 1: From that point they have They've just got a axe

981
00:53:19,800 --> 00:53:26,120
Speaker 1: to grind and all they tell everybody those guys are

982
00:53:26,719 --> 00:53:30,040
Speaker 1: a holes and we need to go after them, and

983
00:53:30,120 --> 00:53:32,600
Speaker 1: don't believe anything they say. Oh yeah, I think that.

984
00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:37,279
Speaker 1: I mean, I I do support maintaining lots and lots

985
00:53:37,280 --> 00:53:40,040
Speaker 1: of sanctions against North Korea's because, let's face it, their

986
00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:44,319
Speaker 1: gangster state and the only way they support or the

987
00:53:44,320 --> 00:53:48,960
Speaker 1: only way that that entire country survives is aid from

988
00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:51,680
Speaker 1: the rest of the world. That's the worst part. From

989
00:53:51,719 --> 00:53:55,080
Speaker 1: the rest of the world doing things like counterfeiting US currency.

990
00:53:55,719 --> 00:54:01,360
Speaker 1: That's that's not aid. That's their side, not officially in

991
00:54:01,440 --> 00:54:04,799
Speaker 1: their grows, their their gross national products. But but they

992
00:54:05,600 --> 00:54:09,000
Speaker 1: they survive entirely on aid from other countries. I mean,

993
00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:11,360
Speaker 1: I can't I don't remember how many tons of rice

994
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:14,960
Speaker 1: get shipped to North Korea. And yet they still have

995
00:54:15,040 --> 00:54:18,040
Speaker 1: people walking their signs on the lawns, you know, in

996
00:54:18,080 --> 00:54:20,720
Speaker 1: the public spaces that say please do not pick the grass,

997
00:54:21,320 --> 00:54:24,240
Speaker 1: and there's nothing else to eat, unfortunately, and there's photos

998
00:54:24,280 --> 00:54:27,480
Speaker 1: of poor people who were walking along with baskets picking

999
00:54:27,560 --> 00:54:30,239
Speaker 1: the grass so that in throwing at a basket where

1000
00:54:30,239 --> 00:54:32,799
Speaker 1: they can take it home to feed their family. Yeah,

1001
00:54:33,719 --> 00:54:36,760
Speaker 1: it's not doing it right. That's not a happy place.

1002
00:54:37,360 --> 00:54:41,759
Speaker 1: And yeah, speaking of age shipments and gangsterism, there's a

1003
00:54:41,920 --> 00:54:43,880
Speaker 1: kind of an amazing story from some years back when

1004
00:54:43,920 --> 00:54:46,440
Speaker 1: they were getting all these shipments of grain from China

1005
00:54:47,320 --> 00:54:50,279
Speaker 1: and they would of course gratefully offload the grain, and

1006
00:54:50,280 --> 00:54:54,520
Speaker 1: then they just kept the trains because because it's like, well,

1007
00:54:54,560 --> 00:54:56,640
Speaker 1: you know, we don't have a manufacturing base, we can't

1008
00:54:56,640 --> 00:54:58,799
Speaker 1: make trains, and we can't buy them because we don't

1009
00:54:58,800 --> 00:55:01,360
Speaker 1: have any money. So but we've got these here trains

1010
00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:09,640
Speaker 1: from China. We'll just keep these Yeah, yeah, totally okay.

1011
00:55:09,920 --> 00:55:11,799
Speaker 1: If you're one of our many North Korean listeners, by

1012
00:55:11,800 --> 00:55:15,200
Speaker 1: the way, don't be offended by this. You probably know

1013
00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:19,840
Speaker 1: what's going on already. Yeah, they probably do. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway,

1014
00:55:19,840 --> 00:55:23,440
Speaker 1: back to the Sneddons, the Seton family. They have written

1015
00:55:23,680 --> 00:55:26,359
Speaker 1: many letters, like we're talking fifty six letters at least,

1016
00:55:26,400 --> 00:55:29,759
Speaker 1: to the State Department into the government looking for any

1017
00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:34,080
Speaker 1: information the US government might have about his disappearance, and

1018
00:55:34,440 --> 00:55:38,239
Speaker 1: the only replies they've gotten is basically saying that we

1019
00:55:38,280 --> 00:55:44,360
Speaker 1: can't really release any information without David's written consent. I know,

1020
00:55:44,200 --> 00:55:47,480
Speaker 1: I know, I know. Uh that's from the U. S.

1021
00:55:47,480 --> 00:55:50,359
Speaker 1: State Department. Yeah, not the North Korea State Department. Yeah,

1022
00:55:50,440 --> 00:55:54,399
Speaker 1: the US government. Like there's a story that I read,

1023
00:55:54,440 --> 00:55:56,640
Speaker 1: I think probably on Reddit recently. It was like this

1024
00:55:56,680 --> 00:56:01,000
Speaker 1: woman was like, hey, everybody, UM, I need some help.

1025
00:56:01,120 --> 00:56:03,719
Speaker 1: I just got this subpoena in the mail, and you know,

1026
00:56:03,760 --> 00:56:06,200
Speaker 1: it's a you have to show up for court, and

1027
00:56:06,239 --> 00:56:09,640
Speaker 1: it's uh, it's for my six month old daughter. And

1028
00:56:09,680 --> 00:56:12,680
Speaker 1: I called and I said it was my six month

1029
00:56:12,760 --> 00:56:14,640
Speaker 1: old daughter. I think you subpoenaed the wrong person. And

1030
00:56:14,680 --> 00:56:17,880
Speaker 1: they said, no, she must show up for court or

1031
00:56:17,920 --> 00:56:20,440
Speaker 1: we will throw her in jail, so that you know,

1032
00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:22,560
Speaker 1: the woman went with the baby and was like, all right,

1033
00:56:22,600 --> 00:56:24,279
Speaker 1: we're here. I don't know what you want to sug

1034
00:56:24,320 --> 00:56:29,040
Speaker 1: testify about, but we're here. Yeah. So what did they do.

1035
00:56:29,120 --> 00:56:31,399
Speaker 1: Did they interrogate the kid? No, I don't think so.

1036
00:56:31,960 --> 00:56:35,000
Speaker 1: I don't think so. I think it's standed like put

1037
00:56:35,000 --> 00:56:36,759
Speaker 1: the kid in the dark room with shed a light.

1038
00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:41,880
Speaker 1: All right, where's the bank? Yeah? Really? Yeah, so I

1039
00:56:42,200 --> 00:56:44,520
Speaker 1: feel like that's about on the same page. Yeah, it's

1040
00:56:44,360 --> 00:56:47,680
Speaker 1: it's litely, it's crazy. That's a government for you. They

1041
00:56:47,719 --> 00:56:51,520
Speaker 1: also filed a Freedom of Information Act request which turned

1042
00:56:51,600 --> 00:56:55,279
Speaker 1: up fourteen documents, and the government released only one of them,

1043
00:56:55,719 --> 00:56:58,560
Speaker 1: which said nothing other than the Chinese government hasn't found

1044
00:56:58,600 --> 00:57:02,239
Speaker 1: any trace of David Well. Okay, that and the other

1045
00:57:02,320 --> 00:57:06,960
Speaker 1: thirteen they're not releasing because privacy concerns and national security

1046
00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:09,680
Speaker 1: concerns and sess in that, which is really kind of

1047
00:57:09,760 --> 00:57:13,680
Speaker 1: interesting because if the government, if the US government knows nothing,

1048
00:57:13,880 --> 00:57:18,400
Speaker 1: then why are they withholding thirteen documents and so those

1049
00:57:18,440 --> 00:57:22,240
Speaker 1: things would have been redacted, so technically all their secrecy

1050
00:57:22,240 --> 00:57:26,240
Speaker 1: stuff should be blacked out. Okay, I guess for me,

1051
00:57:26,320 --> 00:57:28,960
Speaker 1: it makes a little bit of sense because it's easier.

1052
00:57:29,680 --> 00:57:32,880
Speaker 1: There's like a plausible deniability aspect to this, right, where

1053
00:57:33,320 --> 00:57:35,720
Speaker 1: if you release these documents and you say, yeah, we

1054
00:57:35,760 --> 00:57:37,720
Speaker 1: know that North Korea has him and we're like trying

1055
00:57:37,720 --> 00:57:41,800
Speaker 1: to get him back, okay guys, then you then you know,

1056
00:57:41,800 --> 00:57:45,200
Speaker 1: people will be like, well Troy hard or well whatever versus,

1057
00:57:45,640 --> 00:57:48,000
Speaker 1: you know, because because there's a possibility that he'll die

1058
00:57:48,520 --> 00:57:51,520
Speaker 1: or be killed over there, right, and so it's it

1059
00:57:51,560 --> 00:57:54,360
Speaker 1: looks publicity wise, it looks way better to be able

1060
00:57:54,360 --> 00:57:58,120
Speaker 1: to say we just found out had David and they

1061
00:57:58,240 --> 00:58:01,320
Speaker 1: killed him. We had no Yeah, then it does to

1062
00:58:01,360 --> 00:58:04,280
Speaker 1: say like, yeah, we're working on getting him back. Oh yeah,

1063
00:58:04,280 --> 00:58:10,400
Speaker 1: that's that's exactly saving face, and it's probably politically it's better. Yeah,

1064
00:58:10,440 --> 00:58:13,040
Speaker 1: that's entirely possible. It's it's it's even possible that the

1065
00:58:13,120 --> 00:58:16,240
Speaker 1: Chinese government themselves, we're not involved in David's disappearance. Yeah,

1066
00:58:16,240 --> 00:58:18,560
Speaker 1: it's totally possible, But it would be embarrassing for them

1067
00:58:18,600 --> 00:58:22,120
Speaker 1: to admit that a foreign power is active as agents

1068
00:58:22,160 --> 00:58:25,040
Speaker 1: active on their soil and it's actually abducting people. That

1069
00:58:25,040 --> 00:58:26,960
Speaker 1: would that would be a kind of embarrassing for an

1070
00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:31,000
Speaker 1: agent that is worldwide. I think painted is kind of buffoons, right,

1071
00:58:31,360 --> 00:58:34,680
Speaker 1: Like we kind of kind of worldwide paint North Korea

1072
00:58:34,720 --> 00:58:38,920
Speaker 1: as this like kind of bumbling of a country where

1073
00:58:38,960 --> 00:58:40,280
Speaker 1: you know, we make fun of them, and it's like,

1074
00:58:40,320 --> 00:58:43,520
Speaker 1: you know, oh, I eat this like North Korea. But

1075
00:58:43,960 --> 00:58:46,240
Speaker 1: it would be it would be a huge change in

1076
00:58:46,320 --> 00:58:49,680
Speaker 1: public opinion if you were able to say, like, hey,

1077
00:58:49,760 --> 00:58:53,800
Speaker 1: they're actually being highly successful at covert operations of kidnapping

1078
00:58:54,280 --> 00:58:57,640
Speaker 1: people across the world. They have kidnap people from all

1079
00:58:57,680 --> 00:59:01,480
Speaker 1: over the place, Europe and especially Japan and kurred in

1080
00:59:01,520 --> 00:59:04,360
Speaker 1: South Korea, but a lot of other places too. And

1081
00:59:04,480 --> 00:59:06,560
Speaker 1: interesting that the guy we talked about a little while ago,

1082
00:59:06,680 --> 00:59:09,800
Speaker 1: David Jenkins, he's the guy that defected in nineteen and

1083
00:59:09,880 --> 00:59:14,040
Speaker 1: was held He had the American soldier. Yeah. He he's

1084
00:59:14,080 --> 00:59:17,240
Speaker 1: living in Japan now and his personal belief is that

1085
00:59:17,640 --> 00:59:20,280
Speaker 1: they're not just abducting people for training purposes, but they're

1086
00:59:20,280 --> 00:59:25,440
Speaker 1: also abducting them to breathe them. Yeah, yeah, because if

1087
00:59:25,480 --> 00:59:29,280
Speaker 1: you have like they apparently he said that the Koreans

1088
00:59:29,320 --> 00:59:33,480
Speaker 1: actually were gifted a much of American POWs from Vietnam

1089
00:59:33,920 --> 00:59:36,200
Speaker 1: who they were handed over to the North Koreans, and

1090
00:59:36,760 --> 00:59:39,440
Speaker 1: he said that they went out and found them, found

1091
00:59:39,440 --> 00:59:42,840
Speaker 1: them wives to meete with, because the whole idea is

1092
00:59:42,880 --> 00:59:47,640
Speaker 1: to have somebody who is ethnically South Korean or ethnically

1093
00:59:47,960 --> 00:59:51,800
Speaker 1: white American, but raise them and indoctrinate them in North Korea,

1094
00:59:51,880 --> 00:59:54,240
Speaker 1: and then you've got yourself a nice little spy to

1095
00:59:54,320 --> 00:59:57,680
Speaker 1: plan overseas. So yeah, if you think it's more than

1096
00:59:57,720 --> 01:00:00,959
Speaker 1: just training, he's the guy at the has an interesting story.

1097
01:00:00,960 --> 01:00:04,560
Speaker 1: It's a long range plan, then, yeah, very long range. Um.

1098
01:00:04,640 --> 01:00:07,760
Speaker 1: And he himself, David Jenkins, still is looking over his shoulder.

1099
01:00:07,800 --> 01:00:11,120
Speaker 1: And when he left North Korea, the understand he was

1100
01:00:11,320 --> 01:00:13,480
Speaker 1: he was going to come back. He left with his daughters.

1101
01:00:13,480 --> 01:00:15,320
Speaker 1: His wife was already in Japan and I've been there

1102
01:00:15,320 --> 01:00:17,560
Speaker 1: for a couple of years. And he laughed, of course,

1103
01:00:17,600 --> 01:00:19,800
Speaker 1: and never came back. And so he said that he

1104
01:00:19,920 --> 01:00:22,240
Speaker 1: doesn't go out at night. Well, I mean, the thing

1105
01:00:22,360 --> 01:00:25,520
Speaker 1: was is he didn't leave right away because his wife

1106
01:00:25,560 --> 01:00:28,960
Speaker 1: was one of the original parties that she was one

1107
01:00:29,000 --> 01:00:31,360
Speaker 1: of the abductees that was returned to Japan, and she

1108
01:00:31,440 --> 01:00:35,120
Speaker 1: was the trip was we're going to let you go

1109
01:00:35,360 --> 01:00:38,360
Speaker 1: visit your family and then you'll come back. And of course,

1110
01:00:38,440 --> 01:00:40,960
Speaker 1: as soon as they got there, the Japanese government said no,

1111
01:00:41,240 --> 01:00:45,080
Speaker 1: you're not sending you back. Yeah, and so he you know,

1112
01:00:45,160 --> 01:00:47,480
Speaker 1: he's then of course in fear for his life because

1113
01:00:47,840 --> 01:00:51,080
Speaker 1: it's a shame my aspect, I guess. I don't know

1114
01:00:51,120 --> 01:00:54,320
Speaker 1: exactly what it was that he thought meant that the

1115
01:00:54,360 --> 01:00:56,560
Speaker 1: North Koreans were going to kill him, but he was

1116
01:00:56,760 --> 01:00:59,040
Speaker 1: really worried about that. When I were in his situation,

1117
01:00:59,200 --> 01:01:01,920
Speaker 1: I would definitely we do one of those underskin trackers

1118
01:01:02,040 --> 01:01:05,439
Speaker 1: like that you can like embed in people. I would

1119
01:01:05,480 --> 01:01:08,080
Speaker 1: definitely do that and be like, here, everybody that I

1120
01:01:08,120 --> 01:01:11,480
Speaker 1: care about, here's the code to the GPS tracker that

1121
01:01:11,520 --> 01:01:14,720
Speaker 1: I've embedded into my body. If I disappear, please use

1122
01:01:14,800 --> 01:01:20,280
Speaker 1: it and find me a lot of agents of shields. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1123
01:01:20,880 --> 01:01:26,200
Speaker 1: Speaking of the North Korean nastiness and craziness is also

1124
01:01:26,320 --> 01:01:29,680
Speaker 1: David Jenkins. He was He was of course in prison

1125
01:01:29,760 --> 01:01:32,520
Speaker 1: there for many many years, and at some point somebody

1126
01:01:32,640 --> 01:01:34,480
Speaker 1: noticed one of the North Korean's notice said he had

1127
01:01:34,520 --> 01:01:37,040
Speaker 1: an army tattoo on his heart on his arm, and

1128
01:01:37,240 --> 01:01:40,040
Speaker 1: so that just wouldn't do. So they took him to

1129
01:01:40,160 --> 01:01:42,439
Speaker 1: They took him to a doctor, and the doctor used

1130
01:01:42,880 --> 01:01:50,880
Speaker 1: a scalpel and scissors to exercise without anesthesia all because

1131
01:01:51,000 --> 01:01:54,720
Speaker 1: oh my god, he's got a tattoo. It's crazy. Anyway,

1132
01:01:56,960 --> 01:01:59,280
Speaker 1: I could never go there. Yeah, no, I that's my

1133
01:02:00,000 --> 01:02:06,000
Speaker 1: our army tattoos, tattoos in general. Yeah, army if you

1134
01:02:06,040 --> 01:02:08,280
Speaker 1: have MABE, if you're tattooed free, I don't recommend going

1135
01:02:08,320 --> 01:02:10,600
Speaker 1: to North Korea if you could possibly help it. Yeah.

1136
01:02:11,360 --> 01:02:13,720
Speaker 1: So anyway, that's about it. We've got our theories. There's

1137
01:02:13,760 --> 01:02:16,000
Speaker 1: a theory that he ran away, Davis ran away to

1138
01:02:16,080 --> 01:02:19,560
Speaker 1: join the circus, which I find completely implausible. There is

1139
01:02:19,560 --> 01:02:23,760
Speaker 1: a theory. I think there is some there's I said

1140
01:02:23,800 --> 01:02:26,680
Speaker 1: this before. I think there's some credence to it. I'm

1141
01:02:26,760 --> 01:02:29,240
Speaker 1: not on board with it, but I still consider it

1142
01:02:29,560 --> 01:02:33,959
Speaker 1: a possibility. I think that's just your wide i'd hope. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

1143
01:02:33,960 --> 01:02:35,320
Speaker 1: I think that's what it is. He would have gone

1144
01:02:35,320 --> 01:02:37,480
Speaker 1: back for his backpack and his money in his bank accounts,

1145
01:02:37,480 --> 01:02:40,080
Speaker 1: so maybe he fell on the gorge. No that nets

1146
01:02:40,080 --> 01:02:42,600
Speaker 1: have pretty much disproved that he was murdered by a

1147
01:02:42,680 --> 01:02:47,120
Speaker 1: serial killer. That seems pretty unlikely. Although you know he's murdered,

1148
01:02:47,400 --> 01:02:49,880
Speaker 1: wound up being ostrich meet in the local marketplace. It's

1149
01:02:50,520 --> 01:02:53,720
Speaker 1: it's actually more plausible than the idea that he ran

1150
01:02:53,840 --> 01:02:56,600
Speaker 1: off to starting new life somewhere, but it still is

1151
01:02:56,880 --> 01:03:01,080
Speaker 1: far from proven. Has it ever been suggested that maybe he,

1152
01:03:02,200 --> 01:03:05,240
Speaker 1: you know, he was seen with that attractive woman it

1153
01:03:05,360 --> 01:03:07,520
Speaker 1: was it. Has it ever been suggested that maybe she

1154
01:03:07,840 --> 01:03:10,320
Speaker 1: was like married, or she was there with her boyfriend

1155
01:03:10,480 --> 01:03:13,400
Speaker 1: and that it was like a jealous lover situation. No,

1156
01:03:13,600 --> 01:03:18,320
Speaker 1: nobody's ever suggested that that's possible. Entirely he was murdered

1157
01:03:18,440 --> 01:03:20,480
Speaker 1: or that wasn't he traveling a little bit with the

1158
01:03:20,640 --> 01:03:23,600
Speaker 1: married family and the guide. Yeah, maybe you know, the

1159
01:03:24,000 --> 01:03:27,680
Speaker 1: husband of that couple was got jealous and threw him over.

1160
01:03:28,760 --> 01:03:30,680
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, there's a I think there's a

1161
01:03:30,800 --> 01:03:34,000
Speaker 1: murder aspect of it that doesn't necessarily have to be

1162
01:03:34,120 --> 01:03:38,160
Speaker 1: like serial murderer or you know, somebody who went out

1163
01:03:38,240 --> 01:03:39,760
Speaker 1: just to kill him. It could have been like a

1164
01:03:39,840 --> 01:03:41,440
Speaker 1: fit of rage sort of thing. Yeah. A lot of

1165
01:03:41,520 --> 01:03:44,840
Speaker 1: murders don't fit timelines, They don't fit into this nice

1166
01:03:44,840 --> 01:03:47,520
Speaker 1: little puzzle that we're laying out. They just kind of happened.

1167
01:03:47,840 --> 01:03:50,320
Speaker 1: People do random, weird stuff and it ends up with

1168
01:03:50,480 --> 01:03:52,560
Speaker 1: the loss of somebody else's life. So you know, it's

1169
01:03:52,600 --> 01:03:54,120
Speaker 1: like that, it's like the whole thing from I know

1170
01:03:54,200 --> 01:03:56,160
Speaker 1: what you did last summer where he was just walking

1171
01:03:56,280 --> 01:03:58,160
Speaker 1: down a road going to get his back back as

1172
01:03:58,200 --> 01:04:01,520
Speaker 1: somebody accidentally ran him over and hit the body. I mean,

1173
01:04:01,600 --> 01:04:05,439
Speaker 1: that's that's entirely possible. And you know, then, of course

1174
01:04:05,440 --> 01:04:07,840
Speaker 1: our last theory, which is that he was kidnapped by

1175
01:04:07,880 --> 01:04:10,040
Speaker 1: the North Koreans, and which I think is the most

1176
01:04:10,080 --> 01:04:15,240
Speaker 1: plausible the theories not. My only issue with the North

1177
01:04:15,360 --> 01:04:19,800
Speaker 1: Korea theory is they are easy target. And it's not

1178
01:04:19,920 --> 01:04:22,320
Speaker 1: that I don't think that they deserve to be, but

1179
01:04:22,920 --> 01:04:26,040
Speaker 1: it's there the convenient one. And do you know what

1180
01:04:26,080 --> 01:04:28,520
Speaker 1: I'm getting at here? It's like everybody says North Koreans there,

1181
01:04:28,600 --> 01:04:30,560
Speaker 1: and they're a bunch of jerks and they do all

1182
01:04:30,640 --> 01:04:33,160
Speaker 1: this stuff, so they must be responded. And we have

1183
01:04:33,280 --> 01:04:35,520
Speaker 1: no idea what's going on in North Korea, so it's

1184
01:04:35,600 --> 01:04:37,880
Speaker 1: really easy to just say there's no way from information

1185
01:04:38,000 --> 01:04:40,040
Speaker 1: blackout means I get to fill in the holes with

1186
01:04:40,160 --> 01:04:42,520
Speaker 1: whatever I want. That's true. I mean, it's it's entirely

1187
01:04:42,600 --> 01:04:45,240
Speaker 1: possible that the Chinese government could have taken him and

1188
01:04:45,240 --> 01:04:47,600
Speaker 1: they're holding him. I mean, I don't think it's likely,

1189
01:04:47,680 --> 01:04:50,760
Speaker 1: because why they have that mean they don't need English teachers.

1190
01:04:50,840 --> 01:04:53,000
Speaker 1: The Chinese has, they have a lot of interactions with

1191
01:04:53,080 --> 01:04:55,920
Speaker 1: the US and Europe, and they don't really need him

1192
01:04:55,960 --> 01:04:58,840
Speaker 1: for any particular reason, so that's why. But it's possible,

1193
01:04:59,040 --> 01:05:02,560
Speaker 1: I mean, it's possible that they arrested him for questioning

1194
01:05:03,120 --> 01:05:06,200
Speaker 1: for whatever reason and he accidentally died in their custody.

1195
01:05:06,880 --> 01:05:12,120
Speaker 1: That's entirely possible. Yeah, and so there's all kinds of possibilities.

1196
01:05:12,160 --> 01:05:14,720
Speaker 1: But I'm I'm still saying that the North Koreans are

1197
01:05:14,800 --> 01:05:18,040
Speaker 1: my favorite suspect in this one. Yeah. All right, Well

1198
01:05:18,320 --> 01:05:21,200
Speaker 1: that's about it, unless you guys want to theorize anymore

1199
01:05:22,040 --> 01:05:25,560
Speaker 1: anything else. Okay, Well, I'm sure if you're out there listening,

1200
01:05:25,600 --> 01:05:27,560
Speaker 1: you've probably got ideas of your own about this, and

1201
01:05:27,640 --> 01:05:30,120
Speaker 1: so definitely if you want to communicate them to us,

1202
01:05:30,280 --> 01:05:33,440
Speaker 1: you can send us an email. We are at Thinking

1203
01:05:33,560 --> 01:05:37,200
Speaker 1: Sideways a podcast at gmail dot com, So if you

1204
01:05:37,240 --> 01:05:40,280
Speaker 1: want to discuss this or any other mysteries, send us

1205
01:05:40,280 --> 01:05:43,680
Speaker 1: an email please. Um. You can find us on our

1206
01:05:43,720 --> 01:05:47,520
Speaker 1: website at Thinking Sideways podcast dot com, where you can

1207
01:05:47,560 --> 01:05:51,160
Speaker 1: download episodes and you can check links. We post links

1208
01:05:51,200 --> 01:05:54,040
Speaker 1: to all these various mysteries that we talked about, and

1209
01:05:54,160 --> 01:05:58,920
Speaker 1: you can also leave comments, preferably polite comments. Yeah, you

1210
01:05:58,960 --> 01:06:00,840
Speaker 1: can also find us on I tune. If you find

1211
01:06:00,920 --> 01:06:03,680
Speaker 1: us out there, please subscribe and leave us a rating

1212
01:06:03,720 --> 01:06:06,080
Speaker 1: and a review. We like that, especially good ratings and reviews.

1213
01:06:06,640 --> 01:06:08,320
Speaker 1: And you can if you want to stream us, well,

1214
01:06:08,440 --> 01:06:11,400
Speaker 1: there's about twenty billion websites that you can stream us from,

1215
01:06:11,520 --> 01:06:16,400
Speaker 1: so go find one of them. And as yeah, that's true.

1216
01:06:17,040 --> 01:06:19,480
Speaker 1: We're also on Facebook, so find us on Facebook. We

1217
01:06:19,520 --> 01:06:21,080
Speaker 1: have we have a group. You can join the group

1218
01:06:21,400 --> 01:06:24,080
Speaker 1: and have exciting discussions about all kinds of cool stuff.

1219
01:06:25,000 --> 01:06:28,280
Speaker 1: We're on Twitter where we are thinking sideways, not thinking,

1220
01:06:28,640 --> 01:06:31,760
Speaker 1: but thinking sideways. And last of all, of course, we

1221
01:06:31,840 --> 01:06:34,280
Speaker 1: are now on Patreon, so you can find us out

1222
01:06:34,320 --> 01:06:36,320
Speaker 1: there if you want to completely optional, but if you

1223
01:06:36,360 --> 01:06:38,840
Speaker 1: feel like it, you can, you know, pledge a small

1224
01:06:38,840 --> 01:06:43,280
Speaker 1: amount of money per episode. And again totally optional because

1225
01:06:43,280 --> 01:06:45,120
Speaker 1: I mean, I I read a lot of blogs and

1226
01:06:45,160 --> 01:06:46,840
Speaker 1: stuff like that, and I don't hit the tip jars,

1227
01:06:46,920 --> 01:06:49,360
Speaker 1: so I'm not trying to guilt to anybody in anything.

1228
01:06:49,960 --> 01:06:52,560
Speaker 1: Just if you feel like it. Okay, So that's it

1229
01:06:52,720 --> 01:06:56,520
Speaker 1: for this week. Any last thoughts, guys, I mean, neither

1230
01:06:56,880 --> 01:07:00,040
Speaker 1: my mind is blank, so by everybody, we'll see in

1231
01:07:00,120 --> 01:07:03,400
Speaker 1: a week. Bye guys, Bye guys, and I want the

1232
01:07:03,440 --> 01:07:04,360
Speaker 1: Ostrichs meet you