WEBVTT - #219 Jason Flom with Patrick Pursley 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:03.200 Since the initial release of Patrick Pursley's story, he has 0:00:03.240 --> 0:00:07.120 been fighting for his certificate of actual innocence. Without it, 0:00:07.280 --> 0:00:10.760 he cannot file for state compensation or file a federal 0:00:10.840 --> 0:00:14.400 civil suit. After so much delay, the state has been dragged, 0:00:14.520 --> 0:00:17.520 kicking and screaming to a hearing for Patrick's certificate of 0:00:17.560 --> 0:00:22.239 actual innocence occurring August twenty seventh, twenty twenty one. The 0:00:22.280 --> 0:00:25.920 state has been desperately trying to throw Patrick's innocence into question, 0:00:26.200 --> 0:00:29.120 to no avail, and for no other reason than to 0:00:29.360 --> 0:00:33.040 not admit that they were wrong, and thereby gray and 0:00:33.200 --> 0:00:36.600 Patrick the right to pursue the compensation that he so 0:00:36.800 --> 0:00:43.240 rightly deserves. At ten pm on a snowy April second, 0:00:43.400 --> 0:00:46.640 nineteen ninety three, twenty two year old Andrew Asher and 0:00:46.680 --> 0:00:48.839 Becky George sat in a parked car in front of 0:00:48.840 --> 0:00:52.720 her brother's apartment on Silent Road in Rockford, Illinois. A 0:00:52.760 --> 0:00:54.960 black man approached the car in a blue scheme mask 0:00:54.960 --> 0:00:56.800 in a hoodie, and he opened the driver's side door, 0:00:56.840 --> 0:00:59.640 announcing a stick up. While Becky fished around in her 0:00:59.640 --> 0:01:02.120 person tried to offer the gunman the sixty dollars she had, 0:01:02.160 --> 0:01:03.920 he shot Andrew Asher twice. 0:01:04.440 --> 0:01:06.000 Becky ran to her brother's apartment to. 0:01:06.000 --> 0:01:08.600 Call the police, and the two bullets and their casings 0:01:08.640 --> 0:01:11.440 were retrieved from the crime scene and during the autopsy. 0:01:12.080 --> 0:01:15.160 Through the use of incentivized eyewitness testimony, the coercion of 0:01:15.160 --> 0:01:18.839 a false confession, and grand jury testimony from Patrick Persley's girlfriend, 0:01:18.880 --> 0:01:22.959 Samantha Crabtree, testimony she later recanted a trial, and conflicting 0:01:23.000 --> 0:01:27.080 and misleading ballistics expert testimony. Patrick was convicted of first 0:01:27.080 --> 0:01:31.759 degree murder and sentenced to life without parole, with an 0:01:31.800 --> 0:01:35.399 epic appeals process that included Patrick getting a law change 0:01:35.480 --> 0:01:38.560 from prison in order to get new ballistics testing done 0:01:38.600 --> 0:01:42.800 that would ultimately set him free. Patrick Parsley suffered for 0:01:42.920 --> 0:01:46.319 over twenty five years for a crime he simply didn't commit. 0:01:47.120 --> 0:01:51.080 In March twenty seventeen, Patrick's conviction was finally. 0:01:50.800 --> 0:01:52.680 Vacated and he was released on bond. 0:01:53.280 --> 0:01:56.520 He was formally acquitted at his retrial on January sixteenth, 0:01:56.760 --> 0:02:17.880 twenty nineteen. It's Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm Welcome Back 0:02:17.880 --> 0:02:21.440 to Wrongful Conviction. This episode was recorded at Complex Con 0:02:21.520 --> 0:02:25.320 Chicago twenty nineteen, a culture, fashion, art and music hybrid 0:02:25.360 --> 0:02:28.720 event described as a streetwear fans, kind of world's fair 0:02:28.919 --> 0:02:32.760 featuring limited edition brand collaborations, performances, and even the occasional 0:02:32.800 --> 0:02:36.040 live podcast recording like this one. We only had thirty 0:02:36.080 --> 0:02:38.840 minutes though, to tell Patrick's story, so I'll be fleshing 0:02:38.840 --> 0:02:42.880 out some of the details along the way. Patrick Persley, 0:02:42.960 --> 0:02:46.000 this is going to be extraordinary because, frankly because of you. 0:02:46.639 --> 0:02:48.160 Because Patrick is my new friend. 0:02:48.160 --> 0:02:51.960 I've just got to know him, his unbelievable spirit and intellect. 0:02:51.960 --> 0:02:54.399 But Patrick, I want to say that I'm happy you're here. 0:02:54.400 --> 0:02:55.200 I'm sorry you're. 0:02:55.040 --> 0:02:57.640 Here because you should never even have to be having 0:02:57.639 --> 0:02:58.239 this conversation. 0:02:58.320 --> 0:02:59.920 But I'm happier here. 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:02.440 Case has so many of the hallmarks, so many of 0:03:02.440 --> 0:03:04.160 the common factors that we see. 0:03:04.040 --> 0:03:06.120 In wrongful convictions over and over again. 0:03:06.600 --> 0:03:12.720 You had incentivized lying witnesses, coerced threatened witnesses. You had 0:03:13.080 --> 0:03:16.880 bad ballistics, terrible ballistics, right. You had people in positions 0:03:16.880 --> 0:03:20.960 of authority who broke rules, broke laws in order to 0:03:21.040 --> 0:03:23.880 railroad you. Tunnel vision is another factor, right, And by 0:03:23.919 --> 0:03:26.120 tunnel vision, what I mean by that is once a 0:03:26.240 --> 0:03:30.400 suspect is identified. In many cases, we see that the 0:03:30.400 --> 0:03:34.120 police and prosecutors start to build a narrative, either consciously 0:03:34.240 --> 0:03:38.000 or subconsciously, and they managed to ignore or they subconsciously 0:03:38.040 --> 0:03:41.440 ignore evidence that points away, as it did in your case. 0:03:41.520 --> 0:03:45.280 Yes, i'll term to suspects, crime scene evidence, clothing, everything, 0:03:45.320 --> 0:03:46.520 Everything was contradicted. 0:03:46.960 --> 0:03:50.680 So Patrick Pursley was wrongfully convicted of a brutal crime, 0:03:50.960 --> 0:03:53.680 a robbery of two people in a car where the 0:03:53.920 --> 0:03:57.080 robber shot the guy sitting in the car twice and 0:03:57.360 --> 0:04:01.880 ran and then things went downhill from. 0:04:01.720 --> 0:04:03.000 There very quickly. 0:04:03.400 --> 0:04:07.360 And Patrick, this was Rockford, Illinois, Rockford. But you didn't 0:04:07.400 --> 0:04:09.040 know the people, You didn't know anything about the. 0:04:09.000 --> 0:04:10.760 Crime, didn't even know it happened. 0:04:11.240 --> 0:04:13.160 You were home with your girlfriend when this happened. 0:04:13.320 --> 0:04:16.400 Yes, I was doing a lated birthday party for my 0:04:16.520 --> 0:04:19.400 son and he came from Wisconsin. His birthday was on 0:04:19.440 --> 0:04:22.320 the twenty ninth, and we were celebrating on the night 0:04:22.480 --> 0:04:25.640 of the crime, which was four to ninety three, and 0:04:25.960 --> 0:04:28.359 had a chemistry set for him and we were just 0:04:28.720 --> 0:04:32.520 tinkering around and have no idea of these events happening 0:04:33.480 --> 0:04:34.640 just a few miles away. 0:04:34.800 --> 0:04:34.920 Now. 0:04:34.920 --> 0:04:37.239 I Meanwhile, there's another aspect of this that's important to recognize, 0:04:37.240 --> 0:04:40.080 which is crime stoppers, right and theory. Crime stoppers great thing, right, 0:04:40.080 --> 0:04:42.560 people call up, they talk about a crime, They're gonna 0:04:42.600 --> 0:04:44.280 make us all safer to get a reward. But in 0:04:44.279 --> 0:04:47.800 your case, except when they do it like when Patrick's case, 0:04:47.800 --> 0:04:49.919 where someone called up and knew nothing about the crime 0:04:50.240 --> 0:04:53.440 and just gave up his name in order to get 0:04:53.640 --> 0:04:55.080 two thousand, six hundred. 0:04:54.800 --> 0:04:56.640 And fifty dollars the price of life. 0:04:56.760 --> 0:04:58.640 Right, about one hundred dollars a year for the time 0:04:58.680 --> 0:05:01.279 you were in the Price of life. So all of 0:05:01.279 --> 0:05:03.880 this must have come as a tremendous shock to you 0:05:04.000 --> 0:05:07.160 when it happened in stages right when you first first 0:05:07.160 --> 0:05:08.600 you became aware that you were a suspect. 0:05:08.680 --> 0:05:10.640 Can you get into that aspect of this whole thing. 0:05:10.760 --> 0:05:13.719 I was taking my daughter and my son to a 0:05:13.760 --> 0:05:18.000 birthday party and the police tried to for him me, 0:05:18.680 --> 0:05:24.520 and unfortunately I was ghettle bred, so I fled, And 0:05:24.600 --> 0:05:25.479 that's how it started. 0:05:29.440 --> 0:05:32.040 That was June tenth, nineteen ninety three, about ten weeks 0:05:32.080 --> 0:05:36.200 after the crime. Two days earlier, on June eighth, Marvin Wyndham, 0:05:36.240 --> 0:05:38.560 a man Patrick knew from a few small time weed 0:05:38.600 --> 0:05:41.080 deals around Rockford, was the first one to point the 0:05:41.120 --> 0:05:43.880 finger at him in a call he made to crime stoppers. 0:05:44.200 --> 0:05:46.520 It was later revealed a trial that not only did 0:05:46.560 --> 0:05:49.919 Marvin have eyes for Samantha Crabtree, Patrick's girlfriend, but he 0:05:50.080 --> 0:05:52.680 also received leniency on a number of charges that he 0:05:52.760 --> 0:05:55.400 faced in exchange for his testimony not to mention the 0:05:55.440 --> 0:05:58.599 two thousand, six hundred and fifty dollars reward. With Wyndham's 0:05:58.640 --> 0:06:01.320 hot tip, the police now we're able to get a 0:06:01.320 --> 0:06:05.120 search warrant for Patrick and Samantha's apartment, where they recovered 0:06:05.200 --> 0:06:08.840 a Taurus nine millimeter that Samantha kept for protection. Notably, 0:06:08.960 --> 0:06:11.640 she always stored it out of reach of her small children. 0:06:12.080 --> 0:06:15.000 While Patrick fled on foot and the cops rated the apartment, 0:06:15.240 --> 0:06:18.880 they brought Samantha in for some aggressive interrogation. 0:06:19.000 --> 0:06:20.560 And I'm putting that mildly. 0:06:22.839 --> 0:06:25.839 Dan Argergate and my girlfriend for like twelve hours she 0:06:25.920 --> 0:06:31.159 was pregnant, you know, just basically force fed a narrative 0:06:31.279 --> 0:06:35.920 to her while disregarding glaring contradictions. 0:06:36.080 --> 0:06:38.400 And so your girlfriend was the pregnant mother. 0:06:38.360 --> 0:06:40.920 Of two or three, never been in trouble, three kids. 0:06:40.680 --> 0:06:42.120 Three kids, pregnant mother. 0:06:42.160 --> 0:06:43.839 So she's a target for twelve hours and the police 0:06:43.880 --> 0:06:47.320 tell her that if she doesn't tell them exactly what 0:06:47.360 --> 0:06:48.200 they want to hear. 0:06:48.920 --> 0:06:50.760 She won't see her children till she's forty. 0:06:51.800 --> 0:06:53.080 So here's how this unraveled. 0:06:53.120 --> 0:06:55.839 So they take her from directly from the interrogation room 0:06:55.880 --> 0:06:58.000 to a grand jury where they make her repeat the 0:06:58.040 --> 0:06:59.479 story right now. 0:06:59.480 --> 0:07:02.000 She's under oath, right, get her own record, get it 0:07:02.120 --> 0:07:04.799 under you know, as substantiates evidence come in later. 0:07:05.240 --> 0:07:07.719 So she tells them what they want to hear, and 0:07:07.800 --> 0:07:11.160 a girlfriend, to her everlasting. 0:07:10.440 --> 0:07:12.640 Credit, stood strong, took it back. 0:07:12.880 --> 0:07:14.000 Can you talk about that? 0:07:14.160 --> 0:07:16.240 Yeah, So, as soon as she was out of custody, 0:07:16.400 --> 0:07:19.160 she filed an affidavit with my attorneys and said she 0:07:19.280 --> 0:07:24.119 was coursed, basically took back her statement. When elnoi idea 0:07:24.160 --> 0:07:26.640 is no takebacks. 0:07:25.800 --> 0:07:27.360 Right now, It's called perjury. 0:07:27.520 --> 0:07:31.360 It's called perjury. It's called come in that trial substantial evidence. 0:07:31.480 --> 0:07:34.200 Didn you say this under oath and comes in as 0:07:34.320 --> 0:07:35.160 evidence of guilt. 0:07:35.360 --> 0:07:38.120 Your girlfriend ended up spending two years in prison. 0:07:38.000 --> 0:07:40.200 Because she didn't go along with the narrative and took 0:07:40.200 --> 0:07:40.560 it back. 0:07:44.880 --> 0:07:48.840 The narrative of her terror ride, spoon fed and patently 0:07:48.880 --> 0:07:51.880 false confession, and her grand jury testimony was that she 0:07:52.120 --> 0:07:54.720 and Patrick were having financial trouble and on the night 0:07:54.760 --> 0:07:56.480 of the murder, they were driving around in search of 0:07:56.480 --> 0:07:58.560 a house to rob when Patrick told her to stop 0:07:58.560 --> 0:08:00.800 on silent road, hopped out of the car, put on 0:08:00.840 --> 0:08:03.000 a blue ski mask, told her to keep the engine running, 0:08:03.040 --> 0:08:06.040 and ran off toward the apartment buildings. Then a few 0:08:06.080 --> 0:08:09.240 minutes later she heard two gun shots and Patrick returned 0:08:09.240 --> 0:08:13.440 to the car carrying a Taurus nine millimeter. Hours before 0:08:13.440 --> 0:08:16.520 being threatened with a life separated from her children and 0:08:16.560 --> 0:08:20.480 regurgitating this narrative for her false confession, Samantha's apartment was 0:08:20.520 --> 0:08:24.120 being searched by the police where photos were actually staged. 0:08:24.200 --> 0:08:25.200 There was stage. 0:08:24.880 --> 0:08:27.679 Photos of her tourist nine millimeters being stored in plain 0:08:27.800 --> 0:08:29.000 sight for ease of use. 0:08:30.720 --> 0:08:34.080 The whole gun situation as far as like pictures of 0:08:34.080 --> 0:08:36.080 where the gun was, It's like I had children in 0:08:36.080 --> 0:08:37.920 my house. I'm not going to have a gun in 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:39.920 plain view where a ten year old could get it. 0:08:39.920 --> 0:08:40.679 It just wasn't. 0:08:41.120 --> 0:08:43.160 The whole narrative of how it was put together was 0:08:43.200 --> 0:08:45.520 so far socle it was. It's just crazy. 0:08:45.760 --> 0:08:47.640 But early on you it you had a lawyer who 0:08:47.679 --> 0:08:49.199 actually made one move. 0:08:49.480 --> 0:08:51.360 That one move saved your life. 0:08:51.520 --> 0:08:54.440 Yeah, So every defendant, I think in the course of 0:08:54.480 --> 0:08:57.360 America says I didn't do it. I had a young 0:08:57.440 --> 0:09:00.679 lawyer who was beginning his career and I'm his first 0:09:00.800 --> 0:09:04.040 death penalty case. And then I had the older lawyer 0:09:04.080 --> 0:09:06.920 who kind of just like, I'm out of here. So 0:09:07.080 --> 0:09:09.640 the young lawyer and his pushback, right, you know you 0:09:09.679 --> 0:09:15.080 didn't do it. Well, we'll test a gun. Really, you 0:09:15.120 --> 0:09:18.840 can do that, Yes, please test the gun. Test a gun. 0:09:18.880 --> 0:09:21.240 That's how it all started, That's what got me here. 0:09:25.000 --> 0:09:29.360 Ballistic testing is very important to this story. Ballistics is 0:09:29.400 --> 0:09:32.400 the study of the dynamics of projectiles or of the 0:09:32.440 --> 0:09:35.560 internal action of firearms. It can tell us what type 0:09:35.559 --> 0:09:37.959 of firearm was used, where it was fired, from how 0:09:37.960 --> 0:09:40.520 many shots were fired, and most importantly for this case, 0:09:40.840 --> 0:09:43.360 it can be used to identify a firearm by the 0:09:43.440 --> 0:09:47.200 markings left on bullets and bullet casings after firing. So, 0:09:48.080 --> 0:09:51.600 after both the state's crime lab and the defense's independent 0:09:51.679 --> 0:09:55.160 lab test fire Crabtrees nine millimeters and compare the bullets 0:09:55.200 --> 0:09:57.679 and casings from both the test firing and the murder, 0:09:58.080 --> 0:10:01.000 the prosecutions expert testified that the gun used in the 0:10:01.040 --> 0:10:03.880 murder was Crabtrees Tourist nine millimeter and this is a 0:10:03.920 --> 0:10:08.640 direct quote to the exclusion of all others. Powerful testimony, 0:10:08.800 --> 0:10:12.760 false but powerful. While the defense's expert testified that the 0:10:12.840 --> 0:10:16.000 murder weapon was likely a tourist nine millimere, but not 0:10:16.240 --> 0:10:20.520 crab Trees, however, the expert hired by the defense could 0:10:20.520 --> 0:10:22.640 not conclusively exclude the gun. 0:10:23.040 --> 0:10:24.600 So think about this. 0:10:24.960 --> 0:10:28.720 You now have the state testifying with absolute certainty and 0:10:28.760 --> 0:10:34.880 the defense inconclusive in their exclusion of Patrick. This, along 0:10:34.920 --> 0:10:40.479 with Marvin Wyndham's incentivized testimony and Samantha Crabtree's initial false confession, 0:10:41.000 --> 0:10:42.760 brings us to where we know this part of the 0:10:42.800 --> 0:10:48.480 story tragically went. However, the ballistics testing becomes crucial again 0:10:49.040 --> 0:10:53.320 many years down the road. When the jury went out, 0:10:54.160 --> 0:10:56.880 You've now seen a bunch of dirty tricks. You've been 0:10:56.920 --> 0:10:59.160 around the system. You grew up, as you said, in 0:10:59.200 --> 0:11:02.640 the streets, so you know what can happen. You're a 0:11:02.679 --> 0:11:05.040 young black man at this point in the clutches of 0:11:05.080 --> 0:11:07.440 a system that is designed to chew you up and 0:11:07.440 --> 0:11:08.079 spit you out. 0:11:08.120 --> 0:11:11.520 I think Lupez called it planned convalescence. I think Lupeco 0:11:11.679 --> 0:11:12.120 called it that. 0:11:12.679 --> 0:11:12.880 Well. 0:11:13.080 --> 0:11:16.480 That being said, when the jury went out, did you 0:11:16.520 --> 0:11:17.120 have hope. 0:11:17.240 --> 0:11:19.959 Oh yeah, I knew I didn't do it. I know 0:11:20.040 --> 0:11:20.800 it was going home. 0:11:21.200 --> 0:11:23.520 And so when they returned a guilty verdict, I just 0:11:24.800 --> 0:11:26.600 I really don't even remember how I got back to 0:11:26.640 --> 0:11:31.280 my cell because I guess the blood drained off my 0:11:31.360 --> 0:11:34.200 body or something. I just went body numb, and uh, 0:11:35.120 --> 0:11:37.280 you know, I couldn't believe it. I just I couldn't 0:11:37.280 --> 0:11:38.400 believe it. It floored me. 0:11:39.559 --> 0:11:42.720 I don't think anybody here can possibly begin to understand 0:11:42.760 --> 0:11:44.920 nless someone else here has been through, and you've been through, 0:11:45.480 --> 0:11:48.760 and now you're facing the death penalty. Yes, so you 0:11:48.840 --> 0:11:51.000 come back for sentencing, and the judge says. 0:11:51.280 --> 0:11:54.280 Because of the inconsistencies of the evidence, I'm not going 0:11:54.280 --> 0:11:55.440 to give you the death penalty. 0:11:55.480 --> 0:11:57.920 However, I will give you natural life. I find you'll 0:11:57.960 --> 0:11:58.760 be a ministers. 0:11:59.600 --> 0:12:01.960 And this is at a time where people were actually 0:12:01.960 --> 0:12:03.480 picketing for me to get a new trial. It was 0:12:03.600 --> 0:12:06.120 very strange, a very strange correlation what was going on. 0:12:06.400 --> 0:12:08.520 And that's just facaic. We're not going to kill you quickly, 0:12:08.559 --> 0:12:10.320 but we are going to kill you slowly. Right. 0:12:10.400 --> 0:12:12.480 Yeah, I'm having mercy on you because I see the 0:12:12.559 --> 0:12:15.800 bs and evidence, but you're still going buddy, you're gone. 0:12:15.880 --> 0:12:17.920 There was a cry in the courtroom when he announced 0:12:17.920 --> 0:12:19.920 that my daughters were there. 0:12:20.880 --> 0:12:24.360 It was something else. 0:12:35.280 --> 0:12:37.480 You were said to some of the worst, well one 0:12:37.480 --> 0:12:38.440 of the worst prisons. 0:12:38.640 --> 0:12:41.839 Yes, stay built, and uh, I'm one got job in 0:12:41.880 --> 0:12:43.840 the law library. I tried to play past the game 0:12:43.920 --> 0:12:46.959 banging and the dice games and try to educate myself. 0:12:47.080 --> 0:12:50.400 I got a grant to correspondence classes in law. 0:12:50.960 --> 0:12:53.160 Is it as bad as everyone thinks it is? 0:12:53.200 --> 0:12:56.760 I'm a natural life survivor right so, right now in 0:12:56.800 --> 0:13:00.120 the wintertime, although locks are cut off the windows, so 0:13:00.240 --> 0:13:01.600 the natives don't make knives. 0:13:01.640 --> 0:13:04.800 However, what that does that allows your cell to have 0:13:04.920 --> 0:13:07.480 enough ice on you can make a snow cone right 0:13:07.480 --> 0:13:12.000 off the bars and freezing temperatures, mice, roaches, so many roaches. 0:13:12.040 --> 0:13:13.880 You put a potato chip back in the corner of 0:13:13.880 --> 0:13:16.760 your segregation cell and the roaches going there and they 0:13:16.760 --> 0:13:18.640 can't get out, and so you hear kind of like 0:13:18.679 --> 0:13:21.719 the scraping, And that was the roach motel and f 0:13:21.760 --> 0:13:22.720 house Panoptacon. 0:13:23.160 --> 0:13:26.760 They actually it's a landmark. It's a landmark. 0:13:27.400 --> 0:13:29.840 And of the two point two million people in prison, 0:13:29.880 --> 0:13:32.479 there are a lot of them who don't have air conditioning, 0:13:33.040 --> 0:13:36.040 and I don't know. A guy who died recently in 0:13:36.080 --> 0:13:37.760 Texas prison, he told his brother that. 0:13:37.880 --> 0:13:39.520 His brother said, why don't you have any sodas? 0:13:39.600 --> 0:13:41.679 You love soda. You can't keep sodas in your cell? 0:13:41.679 --> 0:13:44.120 He said, I can't because they explode because it's too hot. Like, 0:13:44.160 --> 0:13:45.440 what the fuck even is that? 0:13:45.480 --> 0:13:46.800 Well, ice is the commodity. 0:13:47.000 --> 0:13:48.800 They might get one cup of ice in the morning, 0:13:48.880 --> 0:13:50.000 one cup of ice at night. 0:13:50.240 --> 0:13:51.280 Ice is a commodity. 0:13:51.880 --> 0:13:55.360 So you will deal with the elements, and right around 0:13:55.400 --> 0:13:57.560 April fifteenth they will turn off the heat every year 0:13:57.600 --> 0:14:01.480 like clockwork, despite the elements. 0:14:01.720 --> 0:14:05.320 Right in Chicago. You got some elements here, Yes, God 0:14:05.400 --> 0:14:10.160 knows so. And I'm always fascinated and amazed by people 0:14:10.200 --> 0:14:12.920 like yourself who managed to, you know, go through this 0:14:13.040 --> 0:14:16.720 ordeal as an innocent person, and the extra psychological damage 0:14:16.760 --> 0:14:20.080 that that must do to a person who's undergoing the 0:14:20.080 --> 0:14:23.360 extreme physical hardships, h and the loneliness and all the 0:14:23.400 --> 0:14:25.600 rest of it. The violence in the prison, we talked 0:14:25.600 --> 0:14:27.880 about it, the terrible food, et cetera. Set the cold 0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:33.000 to heat, and then you are there, you know, innocent, innocent. 0:14:33.440 --> 0:14:35.600 I was done, All my appeals were done. 0:14:36.120 --> 0:14:39.120 I was done in court, was over with that being said, 0:14:39.240 --> 0:14:45.200 you found this something, this inner strength, perseverance, whatever you 0:14:45.240 --> 0:14:47.520 however you describe it, and you not only didn't you 0:14:47.520 --> 0:14:50.000 give up, but you had and first of all, you 0:14:50.000 --> 0:14:55.040 had every reason to give up. Motion after motion after motion, denied, denied, denied. 0:14:55.360 --> 0:14:59.120 I needed was one yes, I needed one yes. That's it. 0:14:59.160 --> 0:15:01.640 And how you got to that is a really incredible 0:15:01.640 --> 0:15:02.280 part of the story. 0:15:02.360 --> 0:15:04.400 So deny denied. 0:15:04.680 --> 0:15:08.680 Now, as I understand that the law in Illinois at 0:15:08.680 --> 0:15:12.520 the time allowed for post conviction testing of fingerprints in DNA, 0:15:12.640 --> 0:15:14.040 but not ballistics exactly. 0:15:14.320 --> 0:15:16.520 So in two thousand and I asked for the testing. 0:15:17.200 --> 0:15:20.440 I've seen an article and a tribune about Illinois State 0:15:20.480 --> 0:15:25.320 Police now starts using the IBIS system Integated Ballistic Identification System, 0:15:25.360 --> 0:15:29.080 which uses algorithms to connect ballistics to crime scenes. 0:15:29.160 --> 0:15:31.520 So I was like, that can free me. I knew 0:15:31.520 --> 0:15:34.000 it could free me. It was just that simple. 0:15:34.440 --> 0:15:37.160 And unfortunately, because the law didn't allow for it in 0:15:37.200 --> 0:15:39.440 two thousand and two thousand and one, yis for it. 0:15:39.520 --> 0:15:41.680 The courts was like, no, the law would have to 0:15:41.720 --> 0:15:44.040 be amended, the law would have to be a change 0:15:44.120 --> 0:15:47.400 in order to grant me the gun testing, which would 0:15:47.440 --> 0:15:50.000 potentially desonerate me. And that was two thousand and one. 0:15:50.400 --> 0:15:54.080 Right, So you were stuck on a technicality, right because 0:15:54.080 --> 0:15:56.080 you knew that you had this evidence because your lawyer 0:15:56.120 --> 0:15:58.200 had tested. We go back to that, right. Your lawyer 0:15:58.200 --> 0:16:01.800 had had the sense to go and get the testing dependent. 0:16:01.520 --> 0:16:05.120 Testing, independent lab, independent lab. This lab had only testified 0:16:05.120 --> 0:16:06.440 for defendants four times. 0:16:06.600 --> 0:16:08.760 So now a lot of people would say, Okay, here 0:16:08.800 --> 0:16:10.840 you are in the segregation unit of one of the 0:16:10.840 --> 0:16:13.960 worst prisons in America. Not a great education. You'd have 0:16:14.000 --> 0:16:17.120 a law degree, you don't have a science degree. It 0:16:17.120 --> 0:16:21.640 would seem to be hopeless. But somehow or other you 0:16:21.760 --> 0:16:26.440 managed to actually get the law changed from inside yourself. 0:16:27.080 --> 0:16:38.040 So so long, long story short, it's two thousand and six. 0:16:38.120 --> 0:16:39.040 I'm in chowhall. 0:16:39.120 --> 0:16:41.880 There's an a warden, I would say, a Southern gentleman, 0:16:41.960 --> 0:16:44.640 maybe in past life he had slave ships. He sees 0:16:44.680 --> 0:16:47.320 my prayer beads and he says, are you allowed to 0:16:47.320 --> 0:16:50.720 have him, sir, and me, being the sarcastic bastard, I am. 0:16:50.760 --> 0:16:53.680 I buck up and say yes sir. So he looks 0:16:53.720 --> 0:16:55.640 at me and he says, are you sure you're allowed 0:16:55.640 --> 0:16:58.000 to have him? I don't like your attitude. He sees 0:16:58.040 --> 0:16:59.120 the energy coming off me. 0:16:59.440 --> 0:16:59.920 I say so. 0:17:00.240 --> 0:17:03.160 Yes, sir, And so he gets a little closer in 0:17:03.240 --> 0:17:05.640 my personal space than the tar man's out with the gun. 0:17:05.680 --> 0:17:09.480 It's about two hundred inmates, and he says, I don't 0:17:09.560 --> 0:17:13.440 like your attitude. I said, we don't like your attitude either, sir. 0:17:13.520 --> 0:17:16.640 You brought much misery and suffering to the land. As 0:17:16.640 --> 0:17:19.880 a result, I went straight to segregation six months in 0:17:19.920 --> 0:17:22.520 some of the worst conditions in the United States. But 0:17:22.560 --> 0:17:25.679 while there I had epiphany and I wrote an article 0:17:25.920 --> 0:17:27.000 that became a state law. 0:17:27.920 --> 0:17:32.520 And what is that law? Yeah, exactly, here we go. 0:17:32.760 --> 0:17:34.280 So the law is seven to twenty five. 0:17:34.320 --> 0:17:36.720 I'llc has five one, sixteen dash three as a minute 0:17:36.920 --> 0:17:40.760 October twenty seven, two thousand and seven, signed by Governor Blagoyevitch. 0:17:41.119 --> 0:17:43.600 I should probably send him some money for commissary because 0:17:44.560 --> 0:17:46.199 he actually he helped me. 0:17:46.640 --> 0:17:49.919 No, really, he helped me. I just it slips my 0:17:49.960 --> 0:17:52.760 mind sometimes, but he helped me. 0:17:52.920 --> 0:17:53.520 He really did. 0:17:53.560 --> 0:17:54.880 He signed my idea to law. 0:17:55.880 --> 0:17:58.400 If you remember, back in two thousand and nine, Illinois 0:17:58.440 --> 0:18:01.960 Governor Rod Blagoyevitch was indicted on corruption charges that included 0:18:02.000 --> 0:18:05.719 the alleged solicitation of personal benefit in exchange for Barack 0:18:05.760 --> 0:18:10.680 Obama's recently vacated US Senate seat. As I remember that well. 0:18:10.680 --> 0:18:14.480 It was a bizarre episode anyway. He was later found 0:18:14.480 --> 0:18:18.560 guilty of seventeen different charges, including wire fraud, attempted extortion, 0:18:18.640 --> 0:18:21.840 and conspiracy to solicit bribes, and sentenced to fourteen years 0:18:21.840 --> 0:18:24.960 behind bars. But before he left office, he did sign 0:18:25.040 --> 0:18:29.720 Patrick's amendment into law. Now back to the law. Bill 0:18:29.800 --> 0:18:32.440 Ryan worked for the Department of Children and Family Services 0:18:32.480 --> 0:18:35.280 as an advocate for long term offenders. He had a 0:18:35.320 --> 0:18:38.040 newsletter that was circulated throughout prisons as well as to 0:18:38.119 --> 0:18:40.960 families of inmates, to law professors and colleges, and even 0:18:41.040 --> 0:18:45.879 legislators and politicians. Mister Ryan published the article that Patrick 0:18:45.920 --> 0:18:49.240 wrote about amending the law to include post conviction ballistics 0:18:49.280 --> 0:18:54.399 testing through the Integrated Ballistics Identification System also known as IBIS. 0:18:54.440 --> 0:19:00.000 In turn, Illinois State Representative Arthur Turner Senior sponsored the legislator. 0:19:02.760 --> 0:19:05.880 You can imagine the letters that come from prison and 0:19:05.960 --> 0:19:09.960 so Bill Ryan are a long term advocate, explained to me, 0:19:10.000 --> 0:19:13.120 and Michelle says Patrick, you just. 0:19:13.040 --> 0:19:13.720 Don't get it. 0:19:13.840 --> 0:19:17.320 I had a table full of letters I reached down 0:19:17.320 --> 0:19:18.840 to grab one letter. 0:19:19.119 --> 0:19:20.800 Open it up. You asked me to give it to 0:19:20.880 --> 0:19:23.439 the senators, and I did so. 0:19:23.520 --> 0:19:28.840 It's completely by the grace of the creator, completely fortuitous, anomalist, whatever. 0:19:29.200 --> 0:19:32.320 You think, it was all just luck, right, No, I mean. 0:19:32.359 --> 0:19:35.200 The stars lined up, words, genetics, as a commader, it's 0:19:35.240 --> 0:19:39.760 all above. It's a combination of everything. And so ultimately 0:19:40.440 --> 0:19:44.959 the lag gets changed. They opened the jail doors, they 0:19:45.000 --> 0:19:45.639 let you out right. 0:19:45.680 --> 0:19:49.240 No, it's never not exactly. So the log has changed. 0:19:49.400 --> 0:19:52.400 Illinois becomes the first state in the country to have 0:19:52.480 --> 0:19:55.680 this law in order to grant me the gun testing. 0:19:56.040 --> 0:19:58.680 So the log has changed in general, block which we're 0:19:58.680 --> 0:20:01.560 in the shadow of my attorneys over there on Clark Street, 0:20:01.560 --> 0:20:04.880 who spent like four point five million dollars over ten 0:20:05.040 --> 0:20:07.120 years to get me a signerate. 0:20:07.240 --> 0:20:09.800 Well, first of all, let's not leave out there are 0:20:09.800 --> 0:20:12.040 a lot of heroes in your story, right, a lot 0:20:12.200 --> 0:20:15.600 north none bigger than you, by the way, And two 0:20:15.640 --> 0:20:16.879 of them are in the room, and I want to 0:20:16.920 --> 0:20:19.800 recognize Steve Drizzen and Laura and I Ryder from the 0:20:19.840 --> 0:20:24.960 Northwestern Center on Ronfel Convictions, who have been steadfast support 0:20:24.960 --> 0:20:26.800 as they still are your biggest fans. 0:20:26.800 --> 0:20:28.119 I mean, you'd be embarrassed if you heard something things 0:20:28.119 --> 0:20:28.680