1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:03,200 Speaker 1: Since the initial release of Patrick Pursley's story, he has 2 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: been fighting for his certificate of actual innocence. Without it, 3 00:00:07,280 --> 00:00:10,760 Speaker 1: he cannot file for state compensation or file a federal 4 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:14,400 Speaker 1: civil suit. After so much delay, the state has been dragged, 5 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 1: kicking and screaming to a hearing for Patrick's certificate of 6 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:22,239 Speaker 1: actual innocence occurring August twenty seventh, twenty twenty one. The 7 00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:25,920 Speaker 1: state has been desperately trying to throw Patrick's innocence into question, 8 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 1: to no avail, and for no other reason than to 9 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 1: not admit that they were wrong, and thereby gray and 10 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:36,600 Speaker 1: Patrick the right to pursue the compensation that he so 11 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:43,240 Speaker 1: rightly deserves. At ten pm on a snowy April second, 12 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:46,640 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three, twenty two year old Andrew Asher and 13 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:48,839 Speaker 1: Becky George sat in a parked car in front of 14 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:52,720 Speaker 1: her brother's apartment on Silent Road in Rockford, Illinois. A 15 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 1: black man approached the car in a blue scheme mask 16 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 1: in a hoodie, and he opened the driver's side door, 17 00:00:56,840 --> 00:00:59,640 Speaker 1: announcing a stick up. While Becky fished around in her 18 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:02,120 Speaker 1: person tried to offer the gunman the sixty dollars she had, 19 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 1: he shot Andrew Asher twice. 20 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:06,000 Speaker 2: Becky ran to her brother's apartment to. 21 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 1: Call the police, and the two bullets and their casings 22 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:11,440 Speaker 1: were retrieved from the crime scene and during the autopsy. 23 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:15,160 Speaker 1: Through the use of incentivized eyewitness testimony, the coercion of 24 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:18,839 Speaker 1: a false confession, and grand jury testimony from Patrick Persley's girlfriend, 25 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:22,959 Speaker 1: Samantha Crabtree, testimony she later recanted a trial, and conflicting 26 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 1: and misleading ballistics expert testimony. Patrick was convicted of first 27 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:31,759 Speaker 1: degree murder and sentenced to life without parole, with an 28 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:35,399 Speaker 1: epic appeals process that included Patrick getting a law change 29 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 1: from prison in order to get new ballistics testing done 30 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 1: that would ultimately set him free. Patrick Parsley suffered for 31 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:46,319 Speaker 1: over twenty five years for a crime he simply didn't commit. 32 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 1: In March twenty seventeen, Patrick's conviction was finally. 33 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 2: Vacated and he was released on bond. 34 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:56,520 Speaker 1: He was formally acquitted at his retrial on January sixteenth, 35 00:01:56,760 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 1: twenty nineteen. It's Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm Welcome Back 36 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 1: to Wrongful Conviction. This episode was recorded at Complex Con 37 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 1: Chicago twenty nineteen, a culture, fashion, art and music hybrid 38 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 1: event described as a streetwear fans, kind of world's fair 39 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 1: featuring limited edition brand collaborations, performances, and even the occasional 40 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 1: live podcast recording like this one. We only had thirty 41 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 1: minutes though, to tell Patrick's story, so I'll be fleshing 42 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 1: out some of the details along the way. Patrick Persley, 43 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 1: this is going to be extraordinary because, frankly because of you. 44 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 2: Because Patrick is my new friend. 45 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:51,960 Speaker 1: I've just got to know him, his unbelievable spirit and intellect. 46 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:54,399 Speaker 1: But Patrick, I want to say that I'm happy you're here. 47 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 2: I'm sorry you're. 48 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:57,640 Speaker 1: Here because you should never even have to be having 49 00:02:57,639 --> 00:02:58,239 Speaker 1: this conversation. 50 00:02:58,320 --> 00:02:59,920 Speaker 2: But I'm happier here. 51 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:02,440 Speaker 1: Case has so many of the hallmarks, so many of 52 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 1: the common factors that we see. 53 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 2: In wrongful convictions over and over again. 54 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 1: You had incentivized lying witnesses, coerced threatened witnesses. You had 55 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 1: bad ballistics, terrible ballistics, right. You had people in positions 56 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:20,960 Speaker 1: of authority who broke rules, broke laws in order to 57 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:23,880 Speaker 1: railroad you. Tunnel vision is another factor, right, And by 58 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:26,120 Speaker 1: tunnel vision, what I mean by that is once a 59 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 1: suspect is identified. In many cases, we see that the 60 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 1: police and prosecutors start to build a narrative, either consciously 61 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 1: or subconsciously, and they managed to ignore or they subconsciously 62 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:41,440 Speaker 1: ignore evidence that points away, as it did in your case. 63 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 3: Yes, i'll term to suspects, crime scene evidence, clothing, everything, 64 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 3: Everything was contradicted. 65 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 1: So Patrick Pursley was wrongfully convicted of a brutal crime, 66 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:53,680 Speaker 1: a robbery of two people in a car where the 67 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 1: robber shot the guy sitting in the car twice and 68 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 1: ran and then things went downhill from. 69 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 2: There very quickly. 70 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:07,360 Speaker 1: And Patrick, this was Rockford, Illinois, Rockford. But you didn't 71 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 1: know the people, You didn't know anything about the. 72 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 4: Crime, didn't even know it happened. 73 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 2: You were home with your girlfriend when this happened. 74 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 3: Yes, I was doing a lated birthday party for my 75 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 3: son and he came from Wisconsin. His birthday was on 76 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:22,320 Speaker 3: the twenty ninth, and we were celebrating on the night 77 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 3: of the crime, which was four to ninety three, and 78 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:28,359 Speaker 3: had a chemistry set for him and we were just 79 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 3: tinkering around and have no idea of these events happening 80 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 3: just a few miles away. 81 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:34,920 Speaker 5: Now. 82 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:37,239 Speaker 1: I Meanwhile, there's another aspect of this that's important to recognize, 83 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:40,080 Speaker 1: which is crime stoppers, right and theory. Crime stoppers great thing, right, 84 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 1: people call up, they talk about a crime, They're gonna 85 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:44,280 Speaker 1: make us all safer to get a reward. But in 86 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 1: your case, except when they do it like when Patrick's case, 87 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:49,919 Speaker 1: where someone called up and knew nothing about the crime 88 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 1: and just gave up his name in order to get 89 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 1: two thousand, six hundred. 90 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 4: And fifty dollars the price of life. 91 00:04:56,760 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 1: Right, about one hundred dollars a year for the time 92 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:01,279 Speaker 1: you were in the Price of life. So all of 93 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 1: this must have come as a tremendous shock to you 94 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:07,160 Speaker 1: when it happened in stages right when you first first 95 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:08,600 Speaker 1: you became aware that you were a suspect. 96 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 2: Can you get into that aspect of this whole thing. 97 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:13,719 Speaker 3: I was taking my daughter and my son to a 98 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:18,000 Speaker 3: birthday party and the police tried to for him me, 99 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 3: and unfortunately I was ghettle bred, so I fled, And 100 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:25,479 Speaker 3: that's how it started. 101 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:32,040 Speaker 1: That was June tenth, nineteen ninety three, about ten weeks 102 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 1: after the crime. Two days earlier, on June eighth, Marvin Wyndham, 103 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 1: a man Patrick knew from a few small time weed 104 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 1: deals around Rockford, was the first one to point the 105 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 1: finger at him in a call he made to crime stoppers. 106 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 1: It was later revealed a trial that not only did 107 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:49,919 Speaker 1: Marvin have eyes for Samantha Crabtree, Patrick's girlfriend, but he 108 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 1: also received leniency on a number of charges that he 109 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:55,400 Speaker 1: faced in exchange for his testimony not to mention the 110 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:58,599 Speaker 1: two thousand, six hundred and fifty dollars reward. With Wyndham's 111 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 1: hot tip, the police now we're able to get a 112 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 1: search warrant for Patrick and Samantha's apartment, where they recovered 113 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:08,840 Speaker 1: a Taurus nine millimeter that Samantha kept for protection. Notably, 114 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 1: she always stored it out of reach of her small children. 115 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 1: While Patrick fled on foot and the cops rated the apartment, 116 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 1: they brought Samantha in for some aggressive interrogation. 117 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 2: And I'm putting that mildly. 118 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:25,839 Speaker 3: Dan Argergate and my girlfriend for like twelve hours she 119 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:31,159 Speaker 3: was pregnant, you know, just basically force fed a narrative 120 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:35,920 Speaker 3: to her while disregarding glaring contradictions. 121 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:38,400 Speaker 2: And so your girlfriend was the pregnant mother. 122 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:40,920 Speaker 4: Of two or three, never been in trouble, three kids. 123 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 2: Three kids, pregnant mother. 124 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:43,839 Speaker 1: So she's a target for twelve hours and the police 125 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 1: tell her that if she doesn't tell them exactly what 126 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 1: they want to hear. 127 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 4: She won't see her children till she's forty. 128 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 2: So here's how this unraveled. 129 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:55,839 Speaker 1: So they take her from directly from the interrogation room 130 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:58,000 Speaker 1: to a grand jury where they make her repeat the 131 00:06:58,040 --> 00:06:59,479 Speaker 1: story right now. 132 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 3: She's under oath, right, get her own record, get it 133 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:04,799 Speaker 3: under you know, as substantiates evidence come in later. 134 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:07,719 Speaker 1: So she tells them what they want to hear, and 135 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 1: a girlfriend, to her everlasting. 136 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 4: Credit, stood strong, took it back. 137 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 2: Can you talk about that? 138 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:16,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, So, as soon as she was out of custody, 139 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 3: she filed an affidavit with my attorneys and said she 140 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:24,119 Speaker 3: was coursed, basically took back her statement. When elnoi idea 141 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 3: is no takebacks. 142 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 2: Right now, It's called perjury. 143 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:31,360 Speaker 3: It's called perjury. It's called come in that trial substantial evidence. 144 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 3: Didn you say this under oath and comes in as 145 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 3: evidence of guilt. 146 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:38,120 Speaker 2: Your girlfriend ended up spending two years in prison. 147 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:40,200 Speaker 4: Because she didn't go along with the narrative and took 148 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 4: it back. 149 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:48,840 Speaker 1: The narrative of her terror ride, spoon fed and patently 150 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 1: false confession, and her grand jury testimony was that she 151 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 1: and Patrick were having financial trouble and on the night 152 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 1: of the murder, they were driving around in search of 153 00:07:56,480 --> 00:07:58,560 Speaker 1: a house to rob when Patrick told her to stop 154 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:00,800 Speaker 1: on silent road, hopped out of the car, put on 155 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 1: a blue ski mask, told her to keep the engine running, 156 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:06,040 Speaker 1: and ran off toward the apartment buildings. Then a few 157 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 1: minutes later she heard two gun shots and Patrick returned 158 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 1: to the car carrying a Taurus nine millimeter. Hours before 159 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 1: being threatened with a life separated from her children and 160 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 1: regurgitating this narrative for her false confession, Samantha's apartment was 161 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:24,120 Speaker 1: being searched by the police where photos were actually staged. 162 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 2: There was stage. 163 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:27,679 Speaker 1: Photos of her tourist nine millimeters being stored in plain 164 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 1: sight for ease of use. 165 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:34,080 Speaker 3: The whole gun situation as far as like pictures of 166 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:36,080 Speaker 3: where the gun was, It's like I had children in 167 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 3: my house. I'm not going to have a gun in 168 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 3: plain view where a ten year old could get it. 169 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:40,679 Speaker 4: It just wasn't. 170 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 3: The whole narrative of how it was put together was 171 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 3: so far socle it was. It's just crazy. 172 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 1: But early on you it you had a lawyer who 173 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:49,199 Speaker 1: actually made one move. 174 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 2: That one move saved your life. 175 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:54,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, So every defendant, I think in the course of 176 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 3: America says I didn't do it. I had a young 177 00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:00,679 Speaker 3: lawyer who was beginning his career and I'm his first 178 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 3: death penalty case. And then I had the older lawyer 179 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 3: who kind of just like, I'm out of here. So 180 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:09,640 Speaker 3: the young lawyer and his pushback, right, you know you 181 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:15,080 Speaker 3: didn't do it. Well, we'll test a gun. Really, you 182 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 3: can do that, Yes, please test the gun. Test a gun. 183 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 3: That's how it all started, That's what got me here. 184 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 1: Ballistic testing is very important to this story. Ballistics is 185 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:32,400 Speaker 1: the study of the dynamics of projectiles or of the 186 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:35,560 Speaker 1: internal action of firearms. It can tell us what type 187 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:37,959 Speaker 1: of firearm was used, where it was fired, from how 188 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 1: many shots were fired, and most importantly for this case, 189 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:43,360 Speaker 1: it can be used to identify a firearm by the 190 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:47,200 Speaker 1: markings left on bullets and bullet casings after firing. So, 191 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 1: after both the state's crime lab and the defense's independent 192 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 1: lab test fire Crabtrees nine millimeters and compare the bullets 193 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:57,679 Speaker 1: and casings from both the test firing and the murder, 194 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 1: the prosecutions expert testified that the gun used in the 195 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 1: murder was Crabtrees Tourist nine millimeter and this is a 196 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 1: direct quote to the exclusion of all others. Powerful testimony, 197 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 1: false but powerful. While the defense's expert testified that the 198 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 1: murder weapon was likely a tourist nine millimere, but not 199 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 1: crab Trees, however, the expert hired by the defense could 200 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:22,640 Speaker 1: not conclusively exclude the gun. 201 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 2: So think about this. 202 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:28,720 Speaker 1: You now have the state testifying with absolute certainty and 203 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 1: the defense inconclusive in their exclusion of Patrick. This, along 204 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:40,479 Speaker 1: with Marvin Wyndham's incentivized testimony and Samantha Crabtree's initial false confession, 205 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 1: brings us to where we know this part of the 206 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 1: story tragically went. However, the ballistics testing becomes crucial again 207 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:53,320 Speaker 1: many years down the road. When the jury went out, 208 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 1: You've now seen a bunch of dirty tricks. You've been 209 00:10:56,920 --> 00:10:59,160 Speaker 1: around the system. You grew up, as you said, in 210 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 1: the streets, so you know what can happen. You're a 211 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 1: young black man at this point in the clutches of 212 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:07,440 Speaker 1: a system that is designed to chew you up and 213 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:08,079 Speaker 1: spit you out. 214 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:11,520 Speaker 3: I think Lupez called it planned convalescence. I think Lupeco 215 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 3: called it that. 216 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 2: Well. 217 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 1: That being said, when the jury went out, did you 218 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:17,120 Speaker 1: have hope. 219 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:19,959 Speaker 4: Oh yeah, I knew I didn't do it. I know 220 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:20,800 Speaker 4: it was going home. 221 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 3: And so when they returned a guilty verdict, I just 222 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:26,600 Speaker 3: I really don't even remember how I got back to 223 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 3: my cell because I guess the blood drained off my 224 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:34,200 Speaker 3: body or something. I just went body numb, and uh, 225 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:37,280 Speaker 3: you know, I couldn't believe it. I just I couldn't 226 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:38,400 Speaker 3: believe it. It floored me. 227 00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 1: I don't think anybody here can possibly begin to understand 228 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:44,920 Speaker 1: nless someone else here has been through, and you've been through, 229 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 1: and now you're facing the death penalty. Yes, so you 230 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 1: come back for sentencing, and the judge says. 231 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 3: Because of the inconsistencies of the evidence, I'm not going 232 00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:55,440 Speaker 3: to give you the death penalty. 233 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 4: However, I will give you natural life. I find you'll 234 00:11:57,960 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 4: be a ministers. 235 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:01,960 Speaker 3: And this is at a time where people were actually 236 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:03,480 Speaker 3: picketing for me to get a new trial. It was 237 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:06,120 Speaker 3: very strange, a very strange correlation what was going on. 238 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 2: And that's just facaic. We're not going to kill you quickly, 239 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:10,320 Speaker 2: but we are going to kill you slowly. Right. 240 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm having mercy on you because I see the 241 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 3: bs and evidence, but you're still going buddy, you're gone. 242 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 3: There was a cry in the courtroom when he announced 243 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:19,920 Speaker 3: that my daughters were there. 244 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 4: It was something else. 245 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:37,480 Speaker 2: You were said to some of the worst, well one 246 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:38,440 Speaker 2: of the worst prisons. 247 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:41,839 Speaker 3: Yes, stay built, and uh, I'm one got job in 248 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:43,840 Speaker 3: the law library. I tried to play past the game 249 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:46,959 Speaker 3: banging and the dice games and try to educate myself. 250 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 3: I got a grant to correspondence classes in law. 251 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 2: Is it as bad as everyone thinks it is? 252 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 3: I'm a natural life survivor right so, right now in 253 00:12:56,800 --> 00:13:00,120 Speaker 3: the wintertime, although locks are cut off the windows, so 254 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:01,600 Speaker 3: the natives don't make knives. 255 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 4: However, what that does that allows your cell to have 256 00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 4: enough ice on you can make a snow cone right 257 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 4: off the bars and freezing temperatures, mice, roaches, so many roaches. 258 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:13,880 Speaker 3: You put a potato chip back in the corner of 259 00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 3: your segregation cell and the roaches going there and they 260 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:18,640 Speaker 3: can't get out, and so you hear kind of like 261 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:21,719 Speaker 3: the scraping, And that was the roach motel and f 262 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:22,720 Speaker 3: house Panoptacon. 263 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 4: They actually it's a landmark. It's a landmark. 264 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:29,840 Speaker 1: And of the two point two million people in prison, 265 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:32,479 Speaker 1: there are a lot of them who don't have air conditioning, 266 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 1: and I don't know. A guy who died recently in 267 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 1: Texas prison, he told his brother that. 268 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 2: His brother said, why don't you have any sodas? 269 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:41,679 Speaker 1: You love soda. You can't keep sodas in your cell? 270 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:44,120 Speaker 1: He said, I can't because they explode because it's too hot. Like, 271 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:45,440 Speaker 1: what the fuck even is that? 272 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:46,800 Speaker 4: Well, ice is the commodity. 273 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:48,800 Speaker 3: They might get one cup of ice in the morning, 274 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 3: one cup of ice at night. 275 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:51,280 Speaker 4: Ice is a commodity. 276 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:55,360 Speaker 3: So you will deal with the elements, and right around 277 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:57,560 Speaker 3: April fifteenth they will turn off the heat every year 278 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:01,480 Speaker 3: like clockwork, despite the elements. 279 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:05,320 Speaker 1: Right in Chicago. You got some elements here, Yes, God 280 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 1: knows so. And I'm always fascinated and amazed by people 281 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:12,920 Speaker 1: like yourself who managed to, you know, go through this 282 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:16,720 Speaker 1: ordeal as an innocent person, and the extra psychological damage 283 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:20,080 Speaker 1: that that must do to a person who's undergoing the 284 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 1: extreme physical hardships, h and the loneliness and all the 285 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:25,600 Speaker 1: rest of it. The violence in the prison, we talked 286 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:27,880 Speaker 1: about it, the terrible food, et cetera. Set the cold 287 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:33,000 Speaker 1: to heat, and then you are there, you know, innocent, innocent. 288 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:35,600 Speaker 4: I was done, All my appeals were done. 289 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:39,120 Speaker 1: I was done in court, was over with that being said, 290 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 1: you found this something, this inner strength, perseverance, whatever you 291 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 1: however you describe it, and you not only didn't you 292 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 1: give up, but you had and first of all, you 293 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:55,040 Speaker 1: had every reason to give up. Motion after motion after motion, denied, denied, denied. 294 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:59,120 Speaker 4: I needed was one yes, I needed one yes. That's it. 295 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:01,640 Speaker 1: And how you got to that is a really incredible 296 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:02,280 Speaker 1: part of the story. 297 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:04,400 Speaker 2: So deny denied. 298 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 1: Now, as I understand that the law in Illinois at 299 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 1: the time allowed for post conviction testing of fingerprints in DNA, 300 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 1: but not ballistics exactly. 301 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 3: So in two thousand and I asked for the testing. 302 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 3: I've seen an article and a tribune about Illinois State 303 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:25,320 Speaker 3: Police now starts using the IBIS system Integated Ballistic Identification System, 304 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:29,080 Speaker 3: which uses algorithms to connect ballistics to crime scenes. 305 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:31,520 Speaker 4: So I was like, that can free me. I knew 306 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:34,000 Speaker 4: it could free me. It was just that simple. 307 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 3: And unfortunately, because the law didn't allow for it in 308 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 3: two thousand and two thousand and one, yis for it. 309 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:41,680 Speaker 3: The courts was like, no, the law would have to 310 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 3: be amended, the law would have to be a change 311 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 3: in order to grant me the gun testing, which would 312 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:50,000 Speaker 3: potentially desonerate me. And that was two thousand and one. 313 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 1: Right, So you were stuck on a technicality, right because 314 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 1: you knew that you had this evidence because your lawyer 315 00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 1: had tested. We go back to that, right. Your lawyer 316 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:01,800 Speaker 1: had had the sense to go and get the testing dependent. 317 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 3: Testing, independent lab, independent lab. This lab had only testified 318 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 3: for defendants four times. 319 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 1: So now a lot of people would say, Okay, here 320 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 1: you are in the segregation unit of one of the 321 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 1: worst prisons in America. Not a great education. You'd have 322 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 1: a law degree, you don't have a science degree. It 323 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 1: would seem to be hopeless. But somehow or other you 324 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 1: managed to actually get the law changed from inside yourself. 325 00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:38,040 Speaker 3: So so long, long story short, it's two thousand and six. 326 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 4: I'm in chowhall. 327 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:41,880 Speaker 3: There's an a warden, I would say, a Southern gentleman, 328 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 3: maybe in past life he had slave ships. He sees 329 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:47,320 Speaker 3: my prayer beads and he says, are you allowed to 330 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:50,720 Speaker 3: have him, sir, and me, being the sarcastic bastard, I am. 331 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 3: I buck up and say yes sir. So he looks 332 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:55,640 Speaker 3: at me and he says, are you sure you're allowed 333 00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 3: to have him? I don't like your attitude. He sees 334 00:16:58,040 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 3: the energy coming off me. 335 00:16:59,440 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 4: I say so. 336 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:03,160 Speaker 3: Yes, sir, And so he gets a little closer in 337 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:05,640 Speaker 3: my personal space than the tar man's out with the gun. 338 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:09,480 Speaker 3: It's about two hundred inmates, and he says, I don't 339 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:13,440 Speaker 3: like your attitude. I said, we don't like your attitude either, sir. 340 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:16,640 Speaker 3: You brought much misery and suffering to the land. As 341 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:19,880 Speaker 3: a result, I went straight to segregation six months in 342 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:22,520 Speaker 3: some of the worst conditions in the United States. But 343 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:25,679 Speaker 3: while there I had epiphany and I wrote an article 344 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 3: that became a state law. 345 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 2: And what is that law? Yeah, exactly, here we go. 346 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 4: So the law is seven to twenty five. 347 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:36,720 Speaker 3: I'llc has five one, sixteen dash three as a minute 348 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 3: October twenty seven, two thousand and seven, signed by Governor Blagoyevitch. 349 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 3: I should probably send him some money for commissary because 350 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:46,199 Speaker 3: he actually he helped me. 351 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:49,919 Speaker 4: No, really, he helped me. I just it slips my 352 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 4: mind sometimes, but he helped me. 353 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:53,520 Speaker 2: He really did. 354 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:54,880 Speaker 4: He signed my idea to law. 355 00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:58,400 Speaker 1: If you remember, back in two thousand and nine, Illinois 356 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:01,960 Speaker 1: Governor Rod Blagoyevitch was indicted on corruption charges that included 357 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:05,719 Speaker 1: the alleged solicitation of personal benefit in exchange for Barack 358 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:10,680 Speaker 1: Obama's recently vacated US Senate seat. As I remember that well. 359 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:14,480 Speaker 1: It was a bizarre episode anyway. He was later found 360 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 1: guilty of seventeen different charges, including wire fraud, attempted extortion, 361 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 1: and conspiracy to solicit bribes, and sentenced to fourteen years 362 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:24,960 Speaker 1: behind bars. But before he left office, he did sign 363 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:29,720 Speaker 1: Patrick's amendment into law. Now back to the law. Bill 364 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:32,440 Speaker 1: Ryan worked for the Department of Children and Family Services 365 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 1: as an advocate for long term offenders. He had a 366 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:38,040 Speaker 1: newsletter that was circulated throughout prisons as well as to 367 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 1: families of inmates, to law professors and colleges, and even 368 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:45,879 Speaker 1: legislators and politicians. Mister Ryan published the article that Patrick 369 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:49,240 Speaker 1: wrote about amending the law to include post conviction ballistics 370 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:54,399 Speaker 1: testing through the Integrated Ballistics Identification System also known as IBIS. 371 00:18:54,440 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 1: In turn, Illinois State Representative Arthur Turner Senior sponsored the legislator. 372 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:05,880 Speaker 3: You can imagine the letters that come from prison and 373 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:09,960 Speaker 3: so Bill Ryan are a long term advocate, explained to me, 374 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:13,120 Speaker 3: and Michelle says Patrick, you just. 375 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:13,720 Speaker 4: Don't get it. 376 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 3: I had a table full of letters I reached down 377 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 3: to grab one letter. 378 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:20,800 Speaker 4: Open it up. You asked me to give it to 379 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:23,439 Speaker 4: the senators, and I did so. 380 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:28,840 Speaker 3: It's completely by the grace of the creator, completely fortuitous, anomalist, whatever. 381 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:32,320 Speaker 2: You think, it was all just luck, right, No, I mean. 382 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:35,200 Speaker 5: The stars lined up, words, genetics, as a commader, it's 383 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 5: all above. It's a combination of everything. And so ultimately 384 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:44,959 Speaker 5: the lag gets changed. They opened the jail doors, they 385 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:45,639 Speaker 5: let you out right. 386 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 4: No, it's never not exactly. So the log has changed. 387 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:52,400 Speaker 3: Illinois becomes the first state in the country to have 388 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:55,680 Speaker 3: this law in order to grant me the gun testing. 389 00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:58,680 Speaker 3: So the log has changed in general, block which we're 390 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 3: in the shadow of my attorneys over there on Clark Street, 391 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:04,880 Speaker 3: who spent like four point five million dollars over ten 392 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:07,120 Speaker 3: years to get me a signerate. 393 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 1: Well, first of all, let's not leave out there are 394 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 1: a lot of heroes in your story, right, a lot 395 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:15,600 Speaker 1: north none bigger than you, by the way, And two 396 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:16,879 Speaker 1: of them are in the room, and I want to 397 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 1: recognize Steve Drizzen and Laura and I Ryder from the 398 00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 1: Northwestern Center on Ronfel Convictions, who have been steadfast support 399 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:26,800 Speaker 1: as they still are your biggest fans. 400 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:28,119 Speaker 2: I mean, you'd be embarrassed if you heard something things 401 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:28,680 Speaker 2: they say. 402 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:32,240 Speaker 3: But anyway, so Rockford fought every step of the way. 403 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 3: There was no like welcoming Reese for the conquering hero. 404 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:36,919 Speaker 4: It was none of that. 405 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:39,040 Speaker 3: It was more like my cousin Vinnie, we don't take 406 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:43,399 Speaker 3: too kind of your kind around here. So it was 407 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:45,480 Speaker 3: a long fight. It was a very long fight. About 408 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:48,600 Speaker 3: five rounds of gun testing showed the gun didn't match, 409 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:54,359 Speaker 3: and of course no one knits mistakes in this world, 410 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:56,480 Speaker 3: so we had to fight new trial. 411 00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:00,359 Speaker 2: New trial. But meanwhile, now you're hitting your stride. 412 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:03,160 Speaker 4: I'm hitting my stride. We were winning motion after motion. 413 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 4: It was just amazing. It was a momentum. If you 414 00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:11,000 Speaker 4: could imagine ten fifteen years of representing myself or you know, 415 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:13,920 Speaker 4: just trying to navigate the system, and. 416 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 2: You're just starting to look like a lawyer. Did anybody 417 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:17,359 Speaker 2: tell you that. 418 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 4: I do hear that I take my cues from Steve Drizzen. 419 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:21,880 Speaker 2: I confess. 420 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 1: So, as you know, the wheels of justice turned painfully slowly. 421 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:31,120 Speaker 1: Even after getting the law changed in order to request 422 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:34,119 Speaker 1: new ballistics testing through the IBIS system in two thousand 423 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:37,240 Speaker 1: and seven, it took a tremendous amount of fighting in 424 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:39,919 Speaker 1: order for Patrick's lawyers to finally be able to present 425 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 1: the new evidence from two different ballistics experts, excluding as 426 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 1: the murder weapon the tourist nine millimeter, that same tourist 427 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:49,880 Speaker 1: nine millimeter that was seized at Patrick's apartment. This all 428 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 1: happened finally in December of twenty sixteen, and then at 429 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:01,119 Speaker 1: last his conviction was vacated and a new trial was 430 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:05,400 Speaker 1: granted March of twenty seventeen, and Patrick Persley was released 431 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:08,800 Speaker 1: on bond that very April, and there he began to 432 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:14,360 Speaker 1: fight the new trial from the outside. In November twenty eighteen, 433 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 1: Patrick's lawyers filed a motion for dismissal in light of 434 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:19,359 Speaker 1: a new bit of information that was not disclosed by 435 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:23,200 Speaker 1: the prosecution after eighteen months, a story from Lois Asher, 436 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 1: the victim's mother, that alluded to conscious wrongdoing by police 437 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 1: in regards to the gun, even though at a December 438 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:32,639 Speaker 1: twenty eighteen hearing she admitted that the story came to 439 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:35,480 Speaker 1: her second hand through her now deceased husband. It's still 440 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:44,240 Speaker 1: worth hearing, but did not result in a dismissal. There's 441 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:47,000 Speaker 1: another aspect of this case that needs to be mentioned, 442 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:48,639 Speaker 1: which is the story of the gun. 443 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:53,639 Speaker 3: So basically, the state's attorneys once came to realize that 444 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:54,840 Speaker 3: the gun didn't match. 445 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 4: Even the mother of the victim right had came forward 446 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 4: and was like, look back in two thousand, the detectives 447 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:04,480 Speaker 4: told me and my husband that back in nineteen ninety 448 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:07,520 Speaker 4: four that they couldn't find a gun that killed their sons. 449 00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:10,360 Speaker 4: So they just put Patrick's gun into evidence. 450 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:13,280 Speaker 3: And when she asked, her and her husband asked, are 451 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 3: you sure you have the right person? 452 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,840 Speaker 4: And they responded, well, we got one anyway. 453 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 2: You know, there's a lot of victims in this case. 454 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 1: The parents of the victim right, your girlfriend ended up 455 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:27,080 Speaker 1: spending two years in prison. 456 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 4: My children. 457 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:32,399 Speaker 3: I can't explain watching what they went through, you know, 458 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:34,560 Speaker 3: all through my children, you know, because every step of 459 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:37,000 Speaker 3: the way, they were my guiding light. 460 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:38,800 Speaker 4: They were my guiding light. 461 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:43,400 Speaker 1: So finally the retrial is on. In January twenty nineteen, 462 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:46,800 Speaker 1: despite the evidence pointing to the contrary, the state's ballistics 463 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:50,159 Speaker 1: expert continued to connect the Taurus nine millimeter seized that 464 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:54,720 Speaker 1: Patrick's apartment with the murder weapon. Meanwhile, the defense hired 465 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:58,120 Speaker 1: two of the leading forensic firearm and tul mark experts 466 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:01,480 Speaker 1: in the country, Chris Coleman and Johnadok, who worked independently 467 00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 1: of one another. That's important and arrived at the same conclusion. 468 00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:08,200 Speaker 1: The markings made on test bullets in nineteen ninety three 469 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 1: and twenty eleven by the tourist nine millimeters seized from 470 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:14,920 Speaker 1: Patrick's apartment all matched and showed distinct similarities. 471 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 2: However, the test. 472 00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:19,560 Speaker 1: Bullets did not match the bullets and casings recovered from 473 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:24,119 Speaker 1: the nineteen ninety three crime scene. Therefore, the inescapable and 474 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:28,119 Speaker 1: for the authorities in this case, the inconvenient truth was 475 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 1: that the tourist nine millimeter did not could not have 476 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:39,639 Speaker 1: fired the bullets that killed Andrew Asher. Finally, your day comes, 477 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:42,680 Speaker 1: your day in court, right, how good was that day 478 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:47,680 Speaker 1: of vindication? Did you float out of the courtroom like, well. 479 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:49,520 Speaker 4: It's really strange because. 480 00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:53,120 Speaker 3: As I'm caught up in these events, I realized all 481 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:55,720 Speaker 3: that this is bigger than myself. But I had to 482 00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:59,400 Speaker 3: sit for a second trial, and even though I knew 483 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:01,600 Speaker 3: I knew I was gonna be found innocent, I really 484 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:04,480 Speaker 3: believed it that everything came out the judge it was 485 00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:07,480 Speaker 3: very meticulous, he was very fair, right, but it was 486 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:10,280 Speaker 3: still very much like dangling your feet over hell fire 487 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 3: because he could say guilty and you go back. So 488 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:15,360 Speaker 3: that's in the back of my head. So when I'm 489 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,280 Speaker 3: actually exonerated, when I lead the courtroom, I still have 490 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:20,160 Speaker 3: that goofy look on my face, like. 491 00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:23,119 Speaker 4: Right, So I still was numb. 492 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:26,160 Speaker 3: You know, it's like end to end because you really 493 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:30,119 Speaker 3: can't believe the gravity of the circumstances that you're. 494 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:30,520 Speaker 4: Caught up in. 495 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:46,639 Speaker 1: The questions I get asked most requently what happened to 496 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,040 Speaker 1: the people that did this to you? And we know 497 00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:53,160 Speaker 1: your answer to that is nothing almost always karma. Karma's 498 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:53,680 Speaker 1: always there. 499 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:57,119 Speaker 2: Karma is the thing. And two do you get compensation? 500 00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:01,399 Speaker 1: That question gets asked by everybody, and people just assume. 501 00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:03,600 Speaker 1: So when he walks out, tell me he got paid, right, 502 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:05,080 Speaker 1: the state makes it up to him. 503 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:09,399 Speaker 3: No, no, no, I mean, Illinois has the statue, But 504 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:12,280 Speaker 3: you have to basically go through another fight called a 505 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:15,879 Speaker 3: certificate of innocence, and then after that is another fight 506 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 3: for the federal level for federal civil rights violations, which 507 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:20,640 Speaker 3: would be a wrongful conviction suit. 508 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 4: So it's a process. 509 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:24,520 Speaker 3: No one you know, Like I said, there's no reas 510 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,160 Speaker 3: for the conquering hero. It doesn't work like that. They 511 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:30,800 Speaker 3: fight fight, fight, fight, fight, because you're messing with people's careers. 512 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:32,119 Speaker 4: It doesn't happen like that. 513 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:34,920 Speaker 1: But it's so crazy because it's a tax payer money. 514 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:37,520 Speaker 1: It's not like they're paying it themselves. In Illinois, there's 515 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 1: a cap on how much you can get as well, 516 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:41,760 Speaker 1: unless you can prove a civil rights violation, right right, 517 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:44,240 Speaker 1: But even then, the cap is I think going to 518 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:45,639 Speaker 1: surprise a lot of people how low it is. 519 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 2: And Illinois is not the worst state by far right, 520 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:48,919 Speaker 2: but the cap here is what. 521 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:50,080 Speaker 4: It's under two hundred. 522 00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 1: Under two hundred thousand dollars for twenty five years and 523 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:55,520 Speaker 1: seven files in prison, right, and that's after you fight, fight, fight, 524 00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:57,160 Speaker 1: fight fight. 525 00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:58,440 Speaker 2: The good news is we're moving. 526 00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:01,320 Speaker 1: The Instant Project has been really moving in on getting 527 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,679 Speaker 1: laws passed state after state compensation laws. We're now up 528 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:06,600 Speaker 1: to thirty five states that have in their fifteen states 529 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:07,760 Speaker 1: that have no laws whatsoever. 530 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:09,200 Speaker 2: There's some states that have a match. 531 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:11,280 Speaker 1: I think Misconsol right next door has a cap of 532 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:16,679 Speaker 1: twenty five thousand dollars. So now you're out right making 533 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:20,639 Speaker 1: speeches and anyone who has heard Patrick's story today, if 534 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:26,560 Speaker 1: you know, another organization, corporate or otherwise that's interested in 535 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:28,639 Speaker 1: having him come and speak. That's how you're supporting yourself. 536 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 4: I'll run my mouth for a living. That's what I do. 537 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:32,520 Speaker 2: You run your mouth for them. 538 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:33,560 Speaker 4: I can't do much else. 539 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:35,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, well you could do that. So that's number one. 540 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:38,320 Speaker 1: And then the other thing is, you know, we're just 541 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,120 Speaker 1: out here trying to educate everyone. I mean, I'll ask 542 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:45,359 Speaker 1: everybody that's here to ask everyone you know to serve 543 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:48,399 Speaker 1: on a jury. Remember the things that you're hearing now 544 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:50,679 Speaker 1: when you're in that jury box. We know the research 545 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,520 Speaker 1: has now shown the jurors are predisposed to think that 546 00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:55,840 Speaker 1: a person in defend this box is guilty just because 547 00:27:55,880 --> 00:28:00,760 Speaker 1: they're there eighty percent to twenty percent. So remember Patrick, 548 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:04,679 Speaker 1: Remember what happened to him, and how what you're watching 549 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:06,800 Speaker 1: unfold in front of you as you're holding somebody's life 550 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,680 Speaker 1: in your hands may not be what you're being told 551 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:10,320 Speaker 1: that it is. 552 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:12,840 Speaker 2: So they're supposed to be a. 553 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:15,800 Speaker 1: Reasonable doubt, reasonable doubt right, and there's supposed to be 554 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:17,120 Speaker 1: a presumption of innocence. 555 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 2: None of that worked. 556 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:22,399 Speaker 3: No, it's a credibility deficit. There's a credibility deficit for 557 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:25,160 Speaker 3: a defendant walking the door, period. And if you're poor, 558 00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:28,040 Speaker 3: there's a credibility deficit. And if you're behind bars and 559 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:30,760 Speaker 3: you fighting the case, you're not going nowhere unless you 560 00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 3: have an attorney. 561 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 4: So pro say gets no play. 562 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:34,840 Speaker 2: Pro say gets no play. 563 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,240 Speaker 1: I want to ask you this question as we wind down, 564 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:38,719 Speaker 1: and I have one more question after this. 565 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:40,840 Speaker 2: Are you bitter? 566 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:44,600 Speaker 4: No? No, I thought that was a good question. No, 567 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:45,800 Speaker 4: it's no. 568 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 3: I'm hurt. I'm very hurt. You know, I have reservoirs 569 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:53,640 Speaker 3: of hurt. So seeing what this has done to my children, 570 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 3: you know, it's like stepping outside of a time machine 571 00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:59,120 Speaker 3: and not really connecting with nothing out here because I'm 572 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:02,400 Speaker 3: the analog man from nineteen ninety three, you know. So 573 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:07,280 Speaker 3: it's really a very strange, you know, just surreal existence. 574 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:09,520 Speaker 3: But we make the best of it. We make the 575 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:13,080 Speaker 3: best of it, you know. I amkidculture dot org. So 576 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:15,800 Speaker 3: I reduced gun and game violence promote higher education on 577 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 3: the organization I found it while. 578 00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 1: That I amkidculture dot org. And of course you're on 579 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 1: all social media now too. You hit the ground running. 580 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:24,640 Speaker 1: I mean you've only been el since January, you got. 581 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:26,720 Speaker 3: I was on social media before I got out that 582 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:30,000 Speaker 3: was that was my thing. I was a writer and 583 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:34,320 Speaker 3: Michelle helped propagate the stories. And we had professors coming 584 00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:37,480 Speaker 3: in and out of Stateville for years who was taking 585 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:40,080 Speaker 3: our material They were you know, volunteers, and they were 586 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:43,280 Speaker 3: taking our materials to game peace circles, high schools, colleges. 587 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:47,239 Speaker 3: Kit Culture actually was born in Stateville, where I had 588 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:51,440 Speaker 3: a natural life sentence. Also, I have a book on Amazon, also, 589 00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:54,680 Speaker 3: the Adventures of Kid Culture in the World Explorers. We 590 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 3: got t shirts on I amkidculture dot org. Please support 591 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:01,440 Speaker 3: support support because we are trying to connect to stop 592 00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:04,920 Speaker 3: the violence movement across the country, show culture to culture. 593 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:06,600 Speaker 1: And one more thing, I got to ask this more 594 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:09,080 Speaker 1: question before I get to the last part. So you 595 00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:12,840 Speaker 1: did talk very beautifully earlier about the programs that you 596 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:15,440 Speaker 1: sponsored in prison and about the importance of education. 597 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:20,480 Speaker 3: Yes, so basically everyone knows how the grants got took 598 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:23,400 Speaker 3: in our prisons. Well, we led a fight to reverse that. 599 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 3: We had did charities in prison. 600 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:27,360 Speaker 2: Police left. 601 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:29,320 Speaker 3: We said we're going to do hats for the homeless. 602 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:33,480 Speaker 3: So every time we tried to do something positive, people 603 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 3: kind of like, ah, right, Well we still did it. 604 00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:39,520 Speaker 3: So there was very much that persistence and also try 605 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 3: to reach out to the community at large to show, 606 00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:45,720 Speaker 3: you know, not just to stare the kids away from 607 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:49,040 Speaker 3: crime and educate college kids that were volunteering to come 608 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:49,920 Speaker 3: into state bill. 609 00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:52,080 Speaker 4: Also educate the public at large. 610 00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:55,080 Speaker 3: There's a lot of mismanagement and gross waste of money 611 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 3: in the prison system. 612 00:30:57,800 --> 00:30:58,880 Speaker 2: Well said again. 613 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:01,600 Speaker 1: And I now I'll come to my favorite part of 614 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:04,920 Speaker 1: the show, which is when I get to thank you 615 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:10,040 Speaker 1: Patrick Pursley for coming and sharing your story, and you know, 616 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:12,560 Speaker 1: just for being here and being such a great example 617 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:15,400 Speaker 1: for everybody of the power of the human spirit. And 618 00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:19,200 Speaker 1: thank the audience here for being here and listening of 619 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:22,600 Speaker 1: course Laura and Steve again for everything you're doing, and 620 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:26,120 Speaker 1: all the great activists in the room. And this part 621 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:28,720 Speaker 1: of the show I call it closing argument. This is 622 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,360 Speaker 1: where I actually get to turn my mic off. Thank 623 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:33,960 Speaker 1: you once again. Thanks to everybody at home or on 624 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:36,120 Speaker 1: your device wherever you're listening to Wrongful. 625 00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:38,640 Speaker 2: Conviction, please check out the other episodes. 626 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:41,200 Speaker 1: One story is crazier than the other and you can 627 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:44,000 Speaker 1: learn something from each one of them. So now I'm 628 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:47,240 Speaker 1: signing off and leaving your microphone on, and I'm just 629 00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:50,080 Speaker 1: going to kick back and listen right. 630 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:53,280 Speaker 3: Close and arguments. Remember, people, everything isn't always is seems. 631 00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:58,920 Speaker 3: Everyone has intrinsiing value. Every one of us has value. 632 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:02,400 Speaker 3: That has to be our mission to be able to 633 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:07,400 Speaker 3: teach compassion and love. Right, So, facing the worst possible conditions, 634 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:12,280 Speaker 3: you can still move mountains. And that is very much 635 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:17,120 Speaker 3: a testament to the spirit. And I have to thank Northwestern, 636 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:19,840 Speaker 3: I have to thank you. I have to thank General Block, Prison, 637 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:22,840 Speaker 3: Neighborhood Arts Project, Michelle, everyone that's been there every. 638 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:24,800 Speaker 4: Step of the way. Because I'm a mess. I will 639 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:25,680 Speaker 4: tell you I'm a mess. 640 00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:29,560 Speaker 3: Don't let anyone tell you otherwise that doing hard time 641 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:31,720 Speaker 3: and inhuman conditions, that. 642 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:33,800 Speaker 4: Would be against the law for you to leave your 643 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:38,280 Speaker 4: dog in see think like that. So I always keep 644 00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:40,200 Speaker 4: a part of me in the cellhouse. 645 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:44,280 Speaker 3: Right so right now, let's see they're back from child. 646 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:46,880 Speaker 3: You know that you have birds flying over their heads, 647 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:50,600 Speaker 3: you have spiders, you have mice, you have people who 648 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:53,480 Speaker 3: are loved, you know, loved ones and prisoners who are 649 00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:57,120 Speaker 3: basically kind of get the scarlet letter for loving a prisoner, 650 00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:00,320 Speaker 3: you see what I'm saying. So basically you have loved 651 00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 3: ones behind bars. Write them holered us at Wrongful Conviction Consultants. 652 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:07,280 Speaker 3: We trying to do something. We got a lot of 653 00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:11,760 Speaker 3: prisoners talk to us, hollers. I amkidculture dot org five 654 00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:14,320 Speaker 3: O one C three reducing gun and game violence. 655 00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:16,240 Speaker 4: We did a mixtape. 656 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:18,640 Speaker 3: Imagine that fifty three year old man come out prison, 657 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:21,360 Speaker 3: do a mixtape and no, I'm not rapping. It just 658 00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:25,120 Speaker 3: tells the story of the wrongful conviction as well as 659 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:28,600 Speaker 3: the violence in Rockford, but also the hope and always 660 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,720 Speaker 3: work for love, Always work for love. It is the 661 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:34,920 Speaker 3: highest vibration of human spirit. And that's my clothes and arguments. 662 00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:36,080 Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me. 663 00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:46,479 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. 664 00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:50,000 Speaker 1: Please support your local innocence projects and go to the 665 00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:52,040 Speaker 1: link in our bio to see how you can help. 666 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:55,560 Speaker 1: I'd like to thank our production team Connor Hall, Jeff 667 00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:58,960 Speaker 1: Cliburn and Kevin Warnis. The music on the show as 668 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:02,440 Speaker 1: always is by three ever time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. 669 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:03,480 Speaker 2: Be sure to. 670 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:07,160 Speaker 1: Follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook 671 00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:11,160 Speaker 1: at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is 672 00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:14,080 Speaker 1: a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in association with 673 00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:17,319 Speaker 1: signal Company number one