1 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:06,720 Speaker 1: Well, Elon Muski is now the richest person on the planet. 2 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:10,039 Speaker 2: More than half the satellites in space are owned and 3 00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:14,160 Speaker 2: controlled by one man. Well, he's a legitimate super genius. 4 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 1: I mean legitimate. 5 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:18,119 Speaker 2: He says he's always voted for Democrats, but this year 6 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:18,880 Speaker 2: it will be different. 7 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:19,880 Speaker 3: He'll vote Republican. 8 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:22,640 Speaker 2: There is a reason the US government is the reliant 9 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 2: on ed. 10 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:26,680 Speaker 1: Elon Musk is a scam artist and he's done nothing. 11 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:30,240 Speaker 4: Anything he does, he's fascinating people. 12 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:39,440 Speaker 2: Welcome to Elon Inc. Where we discuss Elon Musk's vast 13 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:42,360 Speaker 2: corporate empire, his latest gambits and antics, and how to 14 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:45,360 Speaker 2: make sense of it all. I'm your host, David Papadopolis. 15 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:50,120 Speaker 2: This week, while Elon has been tweeting NonStop about quote 16 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:53,159 Speaker 2: unquote illegals at the border, we're going to take a 17 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 2: close look at another crisis of sorts, Tesla's share price. 18 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:00,960 Speaker 2: It has plunged thirty percent since late December. Last week's 19 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:04,120 Speaker 2: decision by a Delaware judge that his record breaking fifty 20 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:07,959 Speaker 2: five billion dollar pay package was on lawful certainly hasn't 21 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:11,120 Speaker 2: helped matters. But the situation at Tesla, one of the 22 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:14,880 Speaker 2: most valuable companies in the world has been developing for years. 23 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 2: Later on, we'll discuss yet another story claiming that Elon's 24 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 2: drug use has material consequences for his companies. To talk 25 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:27,400 Speaker 2: about this, I'm sitting here in the studio with Max Chafkin, 26 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:32,200 Speaker 2: senior reporter at Bloomberg Business Week. Hey, Hey, Max, and 27 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:36,960 Speaker 2: Esha Day, a stocks reporter who covers Tesla for US. Hello, 28 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:41,199 Speaker 2: good to see you here. Okay, So we talked about 29 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:44,039 Speaker 2: Tesla stock a little bit last week, and over the 30 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:49,160 Speaker 2: past week it's just gotten worse. It is now at 31 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 2: this point the single worst stock this year in the 32 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 2: Nasdaq one hundred, and it's the worst out of all 33 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 2: five hundred stocks in the S and P five hundred. 34 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:01,040 Speaker 2: Some two hundred billion dollars has been a raised from 35 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 2: its market value. It fell yesterday, it opened lower once 36 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:09,400 Speaker 2: again this morning. Esche What is going on? 37 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:14,040 Speaker 3: Well, a lot of things, But before I kind of 38 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 3: unpack the many reasons that are driving the stock fall, 39 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:20,880 Speaker 3: I just want to take a step back and situate 40 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 3: this stock move in. 41 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:23,880 Speaker 4: A larger context. 42 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:26,079 Speaker 3: So, as you pointed out, Tesla Schez are down almost 43 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 3: thirty percent just this year, but this also comes on 44 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:32,800 Speaker 3: the back of a doubling or more than one hundred 45 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 3: percent gained last year. The year before that, which was 46 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:40,079 Speaker 3: twenty twenty two, the stock crater sixty five percent. I mean, 47 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:42,240 Speaker 3: we can keep doing this and keep going back. But 48 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 3: the point that I'm trying to make is that this 49 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:47,160 Speaker 3: is not an unusual move for Tesla Sches. 50 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 2: It's a very violatle stock. It's sort of all or nothing. 51 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:53,400 Speaker 2: To your point, there was a period, a twenty month 52 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 2: period from March twenty twenty to November twenty twenty one 53 00:02:56,840 --> 00:03:01,240 Speaker 2: where the stock rose on six hundred percent. Indeed, indeed, 54 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 2: so you want to just give us that context, say, okay, 55 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:06,480 Speaker 2: let's not Let's step back here for a second and 56 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 2: see it a little bit. For what is It's a 57 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 2: volatile stock. So that's it, and the show we were 58 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 2: done now. 59 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:13,960 Speaker 3: No, no, not at all, but that's you know, it's 60 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 3: good to understand that this is a volatile stock. Whenever 61 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:19,799 Speaker 3: the stock falls or whenever the stock rises, it tends 62 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:23,360 Speaker 3: to overreact either way. Despite that, and I think this 63 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 3: is the most important point. Despite that, the kind of 64 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:28,639 Speaker 3: moves and the kind of value erosion that we're seeing 65 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:32,520 Speaker 3: in the stock this year is definitely historic, even for Tesla. 66 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 3: The kind of two hundred billion value wipeout that we're seeing, 67 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:37,640 Speaker 3: it's definitely historic, even for Tesla. 68 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 4: So why is that happening? As I said, several reasons, 69 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:43,280 Speaker 4: But I think the two. 70 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:46,120 Speaker 3: Main factors that investors keep pointing out to me when 71 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 3: I'm whenever I'm talking to them for a while now 72 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 3: are really stand out. So the first one is this 73 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 3: slowdown that we're expecting to see in EV demand in 74 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 3: twenty twenty. 75 00:03:56,520 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 2: Four max that we're already seeing in EV demand, right. 76 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, And also not only slow down an EV demand, 77 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 1: but maybe some signs that in particular demand for Tesla 78 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 1: is looking a little bit shaky. 79 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 2: Right And you were you were telling me earlier, Esha 80 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 2: that if you're gonna play as an investor the slow 81 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:19,480 Speaker 2: down in EV demand, the one stock to make that 82 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 2: play on is Tesla. There's no other way you're gonna 83 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:24,520 Speaker 2: You're gonna manifest. That's gonna manifest itself. 84 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 3: Absolutely, absolutely so. For and for any investor that's looking 85 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 3: at like which is trying to play on the electric 86 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 3: vehicle market even globally or let's say even US, Tesla 87 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:39,560 Speaker 3: is really the only proxy. This is definitely at this 88 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 3: point it's not the biggest volume player. It has been 89 00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:45,039 Speaker 3: overtaken by China's bid, but even then, like this is 90 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 3: the most profitable EV company, pure play EV company in 91 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:49,920 Speaker 3: the world. 92 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 4: So if you're trying to make. 93 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 3: A bet on the future of the EV industry, trust 94 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:56,679 Speaker 3: Tesla's really or only proximity. 95 00:04:56,760 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 2: And to that point, so EV's were obviously super hot 96 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 2: for a while time. Tesla, in large part because of 97 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 2: Musk and his drive and what he did was the 98 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 2: way to play that evs or the thing of the future. 99 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:12,800 Speaker 2: As EV demands slows in the US, right it is 100 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:16,599 Speaker 2: suddenly not the hot new thing. Interestingly, as Tesla's market 101 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:20,200 Speaker 2: value is plunged, several stocks have gone past it and 102 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 2: become bigger than Tesla, and Eli Lilly is one of them, 103 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 2: which makes sense right now, Eli Lilly a maker of 104 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:31,919 Speaker 2: these weight loss drugs. That's the hot new thing, not EV's. 105 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 4: Absolutely eve's back in twenty twenty twenty twenty. 106 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:38,600 Speaker 3: One were the hot new things like that, they were 107 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 3: the hottest fat everybody. No one had any idea of 108 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 3: how this will play out. But that market has now 109 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:48,360 Speaker 3: started maturing and people are realizing maybe the overstepped a bit, 110 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:51,360 Speaker 3: as is something that happens with fat markets. 111 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:54,040 Speaker 1: Just to say I don't think fad. I mean, I 112 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 1: understand maybe buying Tesla stock was like fatish, but I 113 00:05:57,560 --> 00:05:59,840 Speaker 1: mean a lot of evv's have been sold, and I 114 00:05:59,880 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 1: think I think it's more a question of how big 115 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:04,920 Speaker 1: the market can get, right, Like, there were investors who 116 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:08,240 Speaker 1: were betting, essentially that it could grow a lot bigger 117 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:11,360 Speaker 1: than it has. And now it looks like you have 118 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:13,039 Speaker 1: a lot of people maybe who own one EV and 119 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 1: one gas powered car or whatever, but but you're not 120 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:19,479 Speaker 1: gonna have this like instantaneous, overnight EV revolution. Like that 121 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 1: to me feels like, right, that was the fad, that 122 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:24,919 Speaker 1: was the thing that everyone was sort of that was. 123 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:27,479 Speaker 2: The fat, the idea that it was all just that 124 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:32,480 Speaker 2: the momentum was relentless, and that everyone in America within 125 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 2: a matter of years was going to have nothing but 126 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:36,720 Speaker 2: EV's in their garage. 127 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 1: We can talk about all the things that may have 128 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:41,000 Speaker 1: fueled that, but like EV's have drawbacks, and people I 129 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 1: think underestimated the drawbacks in terms of charging infrastructure, in 130 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:48,400 Speaker 1: terms of repairs, you know, with the Hurtz announcement, we 131 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 1: talked about that a few weeks back. I mean, part 132 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:52,240 Speaker 1: of it had to do with the fact that, like, 133 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 1: getting these things serviced is a pain, and particularly getting 134 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 1: Tesla's service is a bit of a pain. And all 135 00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:01,280 Speaker 1: that is, like Esha says, contributing to you, problems with demand. 136 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, and to that point, Max, it's not just Tesla 137 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:08,560 Speaker 2: that's seeing a slow down in demand. It is also GM, 138 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 2: it's Ford, It's all of them now. No, as you 139 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 2: this morning, a Wall Street analyst downgraded Tesla stock to 140 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:21,760 Speaker 2: a sell i e. He is now recommending this as 141 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:26,360 Speaker 2: someone at Daiwa is recommending investors sell the stock cut 142 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 2: pair back they're holdings of it. And it's interesting to 143 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:32,560 Speaker 2: me because when I look at the landscape across Wall 144 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 2: Street and Wall Street analysts, Wall Street analysts tend to 145 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 2: play a bit of this game where they're very very 146 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 2: very reluctant to say, hey, sell this stock or sell 147 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:43,320 Speaker 2: that stock. They don't want to get sideways around bad 148 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 2: terms with management. In the case of Apple, I'll give 149 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 2: you a few statistics. There are thirty four analysts recommend 150 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 2: you buy Apple shares and only six recommend you sell it. 151 00:07:55,160 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 2: With Microsoft, fifty nine say buy zero, say sell with Alphabet, 152 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:06,040 Speaker 2: fifty three say by zero, say Cell, with Tesla it 153 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 2: is now twenty one, say by twelve, say Cell, Why 154 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 2: how do we understand and interpret this very disparate set of. 155 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 3: Fact Sure, you know Wall Street analysts are like they 156 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 3: are not a very homogeneous bunch, though sometimes it might 157 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:26,320 Speaker 3: seem like so I can only sort of hazard some 158 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 3: guesses as to water. 159 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:31,400 Speaker 4: Yes, right, So the Tesla's. 160 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:34,120 Speaker 3: Valuation, which is something that everybody is always talking about, 161 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:37,680 Speaker 3: that it's a really expensive stock, has definitely got to 162 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 3: got a role to play. So even if we think 163 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:44,079 Speaker 3: that Tesla is one of the most interesting growth stocks 164 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 3: in the US market, if you compare it with the 165 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:48,839 Speaker 3: other so called magnificent seven stocks, like. 166 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 2: We don't use that term. Okay, let's seven seven with 167 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 2: the index of seven large tex stacks. 168 00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 3: Let's say, yeah, the group of like the seven big 169 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:03,200 Speaker 3: a cohort of seven biggest of the tech stocks. 170 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 4: That's like still expensive. It's like expensive, you say it's expensive? 171 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 2: How for our listeners, how do you define expensive? What 172 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:11,560 Speaker 2: makes it expensive? 173 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:14,679 Speaker 3: So there are many ways to look at whether a 174 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:17,960 Speaker 3: stock is expensive, I would say for a profitable company, 175 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:21,439 Speaker 3: for a company of Tesla stature, one of the best 176 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:24,439 Speaker 3: ways is to look at what people call the. 177 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:25,679 Speaker 4: Price to earnings ratio. 178 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 3: So it's a way of comparing what a companies share, 179 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:34,000 Speaker 3: a company's share price to the profit it's making basically. 180 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:36,080 Speaker 2: To the expectation of future profits it will. 181 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:38,840 Speaker 3: Correct correct, So basically how much money you're having to 182 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 3: pay as a shareholder to get to have a share of. 183 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 2: That problem of that of that income stream. 184 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 1: Matt, the growth story is just very tough with Tesla 185 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 1: at this point because you know, this company, this company 186 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 1: sells a lot of cars. We talk about all the time. 187 00:09:56,160 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 1: It's a huge accomplishment for Elon Musk something like close 188 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 1: to two million cars a year. But it's worth way, way, 189 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 1: way more companies that sell way way more cars. You know, 190 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 1: Toyota sells like some like three or four times as 191 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 1: many or five times maybe as many cars as Tesla, 192 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:13,719 Speaker 1: and I think it's worth the market caps. I was 193 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:15,720 Speaker 1: just trying to look, but it's it's it's a little 194 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 1: maybe it's a little more than half of Tesla's market value, 195 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 1: you know, GM tiny fraction of Tesla's market value sells 196 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 1: more cars. And of course, like there's been this growth 197 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 1: story right Elon was going around in twenty twenty twenty 198 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 1: twenty one. You know, the time of this, the kind 199 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:32,720 Speaker 1: of like hype around EV is saying, you know, this 200 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:35,679 Speaker 1: is going to take over all of transportation. Remember not 201 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 1: just cars, not just personal cars, but it's going to 202 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 1: come for taxis and we're going to remake our cities 203 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 1: and your Tesla is going to be driving around and 204 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 1: you know, driving your friends who don't have cars. It's 205 00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:47,560 Speaker 1: going to be this like multi trillion dollar business. And Elon, 206 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 1: you know, that's falling apart for two reasons. One is 207 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 1: the downside around EV's we talked about. The other is 208 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 1: that the whole robotaxi thing has just sort of like 209 00:10:56,720 --> 00:11:01,080 Speaker 1: failed to actually come about. And so has a new story, right, 210 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 1: which is which is optimist and AI and he's again 211 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:08,079 Speaker 1: trying trying to find a new fad to essentially attach 212 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:11,560 Speaker 1: Tesla to a new growth story. And I think for 213 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:14,439 Speaker 1: a bunch of different reasons, it just hasn't been as successful. 214 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:16,200 Speaker 1: I think there's like a formly once you know, for 215 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:19,080 Speaker 1: me twice thing going on perhaps with some investors. You know, 216 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:21,920 Speaker 1: also you have these antics and you it just kind 217 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 1: of like the idea like there were there was some 218 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 1: credibility to the self driving story whereas optimists, I've watched 219 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:31,560 Speaker 1: these demos, right, you see guys like Wheel the thing 220 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 1: on stage. It doesn't look like, oh, this is about 221 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 1: to come from my job anytime, right, So it's just hard. 222 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:39,240 Speaker 1: It's just hard to like believe it. And then and then, 223 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 1: as Esha's saying, like, you look at the market cap, right, 224 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:44,200 Speaker 1: it's pretty big for a company that only sells sells 225 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 1: less than two million cars. 226 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:47,640 Speaker 2: Well that when it lost two hundred billion dollars in 227 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 2: market cap this year, that two hundred billion it lost 228 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:53,080 Speaker 2: in market cap. It still has a market cap of 229 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:56,000 Speaker 2: nearly six hundred billion, but what it lost alone was 230 00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 2: greater than the market cap of four GM and all 231 00:11:58,520 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 2: these other companies combined. 232 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:02,559 Speaker 4: See. I think that that's exactly what I was trying 233 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:03,040 Speaker 4: to get to. 234 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 3: Why is a test company of Tesla's side size having 235 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:10,680 Speaker 3: so much of polarizing views among Wall Street analysts? And 236 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:13,720 Speaker 3: this is the heart of that kind of that conversation. 237 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:15,720 Speaker 3: Is it a car company, is it a tech company? 238 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 3: Or is it like a weird amalgamation of a car 239 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 3: and a tech company? And I think that question has 240 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 3: not been solved yet. So when we look at the 241 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 3: Wall Street analysts who cover this stock. So for like 242 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 3: for the other six big companies, it's it's largely analysts 243 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 3: who cover the technology space. 244 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:38,160 Speaker 4: Right for Tesla, you would. 245 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:42,760 Speaker 3: See it's a mix of company analysts who cover car companies, 246 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 3: which are essentially value stocks. That's how so they use 247 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 3: a different way to view these stocks. And but then 248 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 3: there are also analysts who really cover tech stocks, and 249 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:56,200 Speaker 3: in some of them think Tesla is overvalued as well. 250 00:12:56,559 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 3: But that's where this kind of weird polarization between us feelings. 251 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 1: We need to talk about Elon Musk, right, because it's 252 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:08,000 Speaker 1: not just about you knows or whatever. It's it's the 253 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: fact that he is the thing that separates Tesla from 254 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:16,400 Speaker 1: being a car company versus a you know, ils crazy 255 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 1: growth stock, and so I think that is also. 256 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:21,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a really a good way to frame it. Right, 257 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 2: Elon Musk walks out the door, and what Wall Street 258 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 2: investors currently value as this incredible tech growth stock. From 259 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:33,400 Speaker 2: the moment Elon Musk closes the door on Tesla, it 260 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 2: absolutely becomes just a car basically becomes a car company. 261 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 1: You could also imagine a situation where they bring in 262 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 1: I don't know who, Adam Newman comes in and you know, 263 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:45,560 Speaker 1: he's like and he's he's energized, he's got the Don 264 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:49,640 Speaker 1: Julio and like he's able to spin a story that 265 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 1: maybe it's not as good as like. 266 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:54,120 Speaker 2: The goes to one hundred, right, But but you. 267 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 1: Could imagine a situation where another tech executive, like, it's 268 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 1: not it's not exclusively Elon Musk, but I do think 269 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:03,720 Speaker 1: he's a big part of this, and you lose him 270 00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:07,320 Speaker 1: and it gets just way harder to tell that story. 271 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:09,560 Speaker 2: Let me take that for a second, esh and go 272 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 2: to the other side of it, which is the short sellers. 273 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:17,079 Speaker 2: Elon Musk despises short sellers, the people who bet against 274 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 2: the stock, bet that his stock or any other stock 275 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 2: will decline in price. Have they, as Tesla has plunged 276 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 2: this year, have they raked in and made a big fortune. 277 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:29,080 Speaker 4: Not really. I mean, let's look at the data and 278 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 4: what that tells us. 279 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 1: Right. 280 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:33,320 Speaker 3: So, there was a time, you know, even before Model 281 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:35,720 Speaker 3: three was launched, and around the time when Model three 282 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 3: was being launched and Elon Musk was going on and 283 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:41,880 Speaker 3: on about his so called production hell. Around that time, 284 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:44,680 Speaker 3: Tesla's short interests used to howe, I would say around 285 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 3: thirty percent the. 286 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:49,080 Speaker 2: Short interest is the percent of the total s momber 287 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:52,960 Speaker 2: shares out there that people have borrowed to then turn 288 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 2: around and sell. 289 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:56,400 Speaker 3: So I guess a simple way to look at it 290 00:14:56,440 --> 00:15:00,880 Speaker 3: is like, how what percentage of investors are are kind 291 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 3: of betting against the stock? 292 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 2: Okay? And it got to his highest thirty percent, which 293 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 2: is a pretty high number, very high, And today that 294 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 2: number is what. 295 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:09,680 Speaker 3: Around three percent, and it hasn't really budged from that 296 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 3: like you would see like small spikes and drops, but 297 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 3: it really has been hovering around that three percent. 298 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 2: So three percent in date is pretty low. So basically 299 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 2: that means that when the stock soared in twenty twenty 300 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 2: and twenty twenty one, he gave the short cellars such 301 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:26,600 Speaker 2: a beatdown. And I believe in twenty twenty that they 302 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 2: lost thirty eight billion dollars. That's right, the short sellars 303 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 2: that you're in, I mean that kind of that. He 304 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 2: just scared them all out of the market. So the 305 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:36,560 Speaker 2: David Einhorns, the Jim Chains is even Bill Gates right 306 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 2: famously was sure they all get to bet. 307 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 3: I mean it's possible that they all have or some 308 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:45,960 Speaker 3: of them have short short or small shot shorts. 309 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:46,920 Speaker 2: They own short shots. 310 00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 1: Now, well, you don't want to get there, not only 311 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 1: when you lose money on Tesla. He insults you on 312 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 1: top of that, so you can take a huge loss, 313 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 1: and you know he burns you on Twitter as as 314 00:15:56,920 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 1: he does to all these guys when they. 315 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:02,000 Speaker 2: Did you buy a pair of the short short. 316 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 1: No, Santa did not bring those to me? 317 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:09,040 Speaker 2: Right, Okay, all right, Max? How does this decline plunge 318 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:11,600 Speaker 2: in Tesla's value? Effect is broader empire? I know you 319 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:13,680 Speaker 2: said earlier on there's a bit of a halo effect, 320 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:16,440 Speaker 2: But for instance, do I think we know that in 321 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:21,760 Speaker 2: twenty twenty two, at some point he was considering financing 322 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 2: his acquisition of Twitter by using Tesla as collateral. It 323 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:29,600 Speaker 2: was going to be one of the biggest such loans 324 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 2: in the history of the world. Mercifully for him, I 325 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:35,160 Speaker 2: think he backed away from that idea because if he had, 326 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 2: he would be feeling a lot of financial pain. Right now, 327 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 2: are there other knock on effects on the rest of 328 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 2: the of the Musk constellation? 329 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 1: We talk about this all the time, But like, this 330 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 1: is a very rich man who does not have like 331 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 1: a huge I mean, he's got plenty of cash, but 332 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:51,360 Speaker 1: like he doesn't have like just buy random failing software 333 00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 1: company for crazy over valued prices cash, Like you can't 334 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 1: make a weed joke and an acquisition every day if 335 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 1: you're Elon Musk without essentially selling some Tesla stock or 336 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 1: borrowing against your Tesla stock. And and he's he's stretched, right, 337 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 1: he's got he's a major shareholder of SpaceX, you know, 338 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 1: major shareholder of Tesla would like and and And that's 339 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:16,160 Speaker 1: part of the reason he wants more. He needs It's 340 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 1: he's saying it's partly because of control. But I think 341 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 1: it's partly also because I think it's weird to say this, 342 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:22,879 Speaker 1: But I think he may be feeling the pinch a 343 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 1: little bit. 344 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 2: The world's richest man, the world richest person is is 345 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 2: is poor. 346 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:30,280 Speaker 1: I mean, so when you're trying to start all of 347 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 1: these companies that are hugely capital intensive, right like these 348 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 1: are not. This is a guy who brings Silicon Valley 349 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:41,160 Speaker 1: you know, no how or whatever to capitally intensive businesses. 350 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:43,120 Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean they don't they don't cost capital 351 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 1: and neuralink of course, like even if they even if 352 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:47,480 Speaker 1: this patient is still doing well, which we haven't, we 353 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:48,399 Speaker 1: haven't heard anything about that. 354 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:48,880 Speaker 2: True lately. 355 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:50,879 Speaker 1: But but in any case, like that's a that's like 356 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:53,919 Speaker 1: a ten year project. You have this like boring company, 357 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 1: this like massive infrastructure thing. You know, the sort of 358 00:17:57,040 --> 00:18:02,320 Speaker 1: best economics are with X which, like I mean that 359 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:04,480 Speaker 1: kind of tells you how you know that he needs 360 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:04,840 Speaker 1: a lot of. 361 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:08,080 Speaker 2: Cash, right, So they're both capital intensive and the return 362 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:11,280 Speaker 2: on investment tends to often take a long time. 363 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:14,159 Speaker 1: It also gives him a lot of power because if 364 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:17,359 Speaker 1: he's capable of self funding things like that, that generates 365 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:20,040 Speaker 1: interest from investors by itself, because all of a sudden, 366 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 1: it's like you could either join me on this crazy 367 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 1: ride with Neuralink or whatever or Boring Company or XIAI, 368 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:27,879 Speaker 1: or you could or I'm going to make all the money. 369 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 1: Like it gives him negotiating leverage having this huge water cash. 370 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:37,200 Speaker 2: Now, we need to talk a little bit about drugs, 371 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:42,000 Speaker 2: as one does on this show, and the board and 372 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 2: corporate governance and Elon's relationship with the board, the Tesla board, 373 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 2: the Wall Street Journal Max for the second time and 374 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 2: about a month has come out with a story that 375 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:54,679 Speaker 2: they clearly have put a lot of time, effort, and 376 00:18:54,800 --> 00:19:00,360 Speaker 2: energy into spelling out the nature of his drug use 377 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 2: and his interactions with the board. What were your high 378 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:05,160 Speaker 2: level takeaways? 379 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 1: So we talked about the last piece, and I think 380 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:10,480 Speaker 1: this piece has some things in common with that, Like 381 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 1: this is the Wall Street Journal, really respected news organization, 382 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:17,360 Speaker 1: kind of going at what has been, i would say, 383 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:19,840 Speaker 1: kind of like an open secret right in Silicon Valley, 384 00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:23,080 Speaker 1: which is that Elon Musk parties. And there are a 385 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 1: lot of stories going around and have been for years 386 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:31,160 Speaker 1: from from sources that range from reputable to like other 387 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:34,680 Speaker 1: celebrities talking about accusing Elon Musk of like doing drugs 388 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:37,399 Speaker 1: with them as Alien banks during the four to twenty 389 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:41,959 Speaker 1: funding secured fiasco alleged that that Elon Musk was on LSD. 390 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:45,919 Speaker 1: She's kind of been a continual critic. What's new in 391 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 1: this story, I would say, is the suggestion that the 392 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:52,399 Speaker 1: board is very worried and that certain Tesla board members. 393 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 1: The story also says that some board members have done 394 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:57,679 Speaker 1: drugs with Elon Musk and that they've been pressured to 395 00:19:57,680 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 1: do drugs with Elon Muster. 396 00:19:58,760 --> 00:19:59,199 Speaker 2: It's kind of. 397 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:01,960 Speaker 1: Funny because it's like awkward to like say no to 398 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:05,200 Speaker 1: when he passes the bong or whatever. It's like pretty 399 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:07,160 Speaker 1: hard to say no. But but I mean the really 400 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 1: what's what's really interesting is the is the suggestion that 401 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:14,359 Speaker 1: some board members wanted him to go to rehab and 402 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:16,440 Speaker 1: that and that if that is true. 403 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:21,359 Speaker 2: Larry Ellison, that Larry Ellison, yeah, a close friend of 404 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:24,439 Speaker 2: Elon Musk, very important now I probably his most important, 405 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:26,440 Speaker 2: uh like powerful ally. 406 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:30,640 Speaker 1: According to this Wall Street Journal story, invited him to Hawaii, 407 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:34,080 Speaker 1: where Larry Ellison lives, to to like dry out. Now 408 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:36,639 Speaker 1: I should say Elon Musk has denied this, as he 409 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 1: often does, right, He went on Twitter and kind of 410 00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:42,200 Speaker 1: ragged on the story with his fans. He said, number one, 411 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:45,720 Speaker 1: no one ever used the word rehab to him, and 412 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:48,800 Speaker 1: that he went to visit Larry Ellison, but it was 413 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 1: just a a family trip, Esha. 414 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:52,879 Speaker 2: One of the things that drumped out at me in 415 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:55,720 Speaker 2: the piece was, in addition to the drug use, that's 416 00:20:55,720 --> 00:21:01,200 Speaker 2: got Max so fascinated it is is the super close ties, 417 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:07,399 Speaker 2: all the complex web of businesses that Musk has with 418 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 2: members of who are supposed to be independent on the board. 419 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:15,480 Speaker 2: On the Tesla board. We know from last week's Delaware 420 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:18,119 Speaker 2: court ruling where his pay package was stinged. One of 421 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 2: the things that the Delaware Court judge ruled was that 422 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:23,399 Speaker 2: you know, hey, Musk was just too cozy with the board, 423 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:26,359 Speaker 2: and the way this enormous pay package was struck was 424 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:31,200 Speaker 2: just not kosher. How do investors look at those Musk 425 00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:33,000 Speaker 2: ties with his board. 426 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 3: So questions about Musk's leadership are not something that are 427 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:41,479 Speaker 3: never discussed, especially when I'm talking to investors. But I 428 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:45,360 Speaker 3: also want to point out that investors who love Tesla 429 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:48,639 Speaker 3: because of Elon Musk kind of take it in this 430 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:53,160 Speaker 3: stride that there are drug use. It's kind of, as 431 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 3: Max said, that it's an open secret. I mean, Musk 432 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 3: has been reported to not be the easiest person to 433 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:03,600 Speaker 3: work with it, so that that does create. 434 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:06,120 Speaker 1: It's like they're rolling Stones, Like if you found out 435 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 1: that the Rolling Stones were using drugs before there shows. Yeah, 436 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:11,879 Speaker 1: that seems like it might even It's not only that 437 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 1: something you would expect, but I think there's a sense, 438 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 1: including amongst some Tesla board members, that this drug use 439 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:21,200 Speaker 1: might be helping him, right, Like you have Antonio Grassius, 440 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 1: who is a close friend of Elon Musk, you know, 441 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:27,359 Speaker 1: donating money to institutions to study psychedelics. These these are 442 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 1: people who think that psychedelics might be the humans in. 443 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 2: Historic should be rising on stories of this drug use. No, 444 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:34,200 Speaker 2: this is bad. 445 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 1: It's not good even in your own personal life. You 446 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:40,640 Speaker 1: know that when like people start talking about like oh 447 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 1: so and so needs to like dry out or whatever, 448 00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 1: like it's it's gone, probably gone past the point of 449 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:49,440 Speaker 1: of just like a party or two. But again, it's 450 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:53,119 Speaker 1: hard to know because this is coming from anonymous sources. 451 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:55,639 Speaker 1: We don't know who is who is speaking to the 452 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:59,000 Speaker 1: Wall Street Journal. Because we don't know, it's a little 453 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:02,679 Speaker 1: bit hard to say, like, are these just you know, 454 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:06,600 Speaker 1: a handful of isolated incidents. Although he hasn't specifically denied 455 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:08,719 Speaker 1: every allegation, he said he's clean. 456 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:14,479 Speaker 2: I can't get you two to stop talking about drugs. 457 00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 2: I want. I keep trying to push this conversation to 458 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:20,280 Speaker 2: one which the much more sober topic of corporate governance 459 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:22,159 Speaker 2: and his ties with the board, which I know you 460 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:24,639 Speaker 2: can't you can't come to a good conversation about drugs. 461 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:28,879 Speaker 2: But Max, I guess I wonder as I look at 462 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:33,359 Speaker 2: the way he's forged these incredibly tight ties with just 463 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 2: about every member of that board, it just keeps bringing 464 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 2: me back to an episode in a period, an incident 465 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:42,000 Speaker 2: that I think, you know, very well, which was when 466 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:45,720 Speaker 2: he was ousted in that coup from by the board 467 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:46,440 Speaker 2: at PayPal. 468 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 1: Absolutely. Yeah, So so Elon Musk and I've written about 469 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:52,920 Speaker 1: this a bit but like he and others have as well. 470 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:56,560 Speaker 1: But yeah, he behaved in a out of control way 471 00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:59,680 Speaker 1: in terms of his management style and so on, and 472 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:03,119 Speaker 1: was board members were pressured by his executives and he 473 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 1: was pushed out. But you know, a lot of changed. 474 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:09,640 Speaker 1: That was, I believe in two thousand and one, and. 475 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:11,640 Speaker 2: That was a pretty scarring experience for him. 476 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:14,400 Speaker 1: It was when he says, oh, I need like more 477 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:16,679 Speaker 1: Tesla stock because I don't want to take over. Like 478 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:18,679 Speaker 1: I think part of that is he's just trying to 479 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 1: like get a big payday. But I do think there 480 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:23,320 Speaker 1: is some real part of his psychology that where he 481 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:26,480 Speaker 1: is actually worried about being pressed, you know, pushed out, 482 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:28,760 Speaker 1: and he has for years had this Some of the 483 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 1: chip on his shoulder he has comes from this PayPal experience. 484 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:35,639 Speaker 1: I will say that, Like, I don't think the the 485 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:39,520 Speaker 1: Tesla investors who are worried about Elon Musk's drug use 486 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:42,600 Speaker 1: are the ones who think it's a car company. But 487 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:45,240 Speaker 1: if you think that this is like a crazy awesome. 488 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:49,960 Speaker 1: You know AI, you know robot thing. You want him 489 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:52,359 Speaker 1: to be in charge, you want the cozy board, you're 490 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,480 Speaker 1: you know, like Matt Levine made a joke about in 491 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:56,879 Speaker 1: one of his columns a couple of weeks ago that 492 00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,159 Speaker 1: Elon Musk could like put a bag of ketamine on 493 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:02,200 Speaker 1: the boardroom table and the board would say, yes, sir, 494 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:04,199 Speaker 1: that was a very good decision if you believe he's 495 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:06,159 Speaker 1: a creative genius, kind of like the mc jagger thing. 496 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:08,240 Speaker 1: If I told you, you know, mc jagger is really 497 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:10,880 Speaker 1: responsible for a lot of the decisions that the Rolling 498 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:13,040 Speaker 1: Stones are making, you wouldn't be like, oh my god, 499 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:13,639 Speaker 1: that's horrible. 500 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 2: You'd be like, great, he's a rock star. He should be. 501 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,680 Speaker 1: And it's the same thing with Elon Musk. And I'm 502 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 1: not endorsing this line of thinking. I think it's like, 503 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 1: you know, it's a lot of things put together that 504 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 1: raise serious questions. 505 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:28,200 Speaker 2: But like the believers believe. 506 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:30,920 Speaker 1: That Elon Musk is a kind of singular genius. 507 00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:32,439 Speaker 4: Who should be left alone. 508 00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:38,280 Speaker 2: Let's call it quits for the day. Thanks for listening 509 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:43,080 Speaker 2: to Elon Inc. Thanks to our panel, Eedha Max, thank 510 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:52,919 Speaker 2: you great to be here. This episode was produced by 511 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:57,080 Speaker 2: Stacy Wong. Naomi Shaven and Rayhan Harmanci are our senior editors. 512 00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:00,760 Speaker 2: The idea for this very show a so came from 513 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:04,760 Speaker 2: Rayhon Blake Maples handles engineering, and we get special editing 514 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:09,159 Speaker 2: assistants from Jeff Grocott. Our supervising producer is Magnus Henrickson 515 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:13,480 Speaker 2: Huge thanks to Joel Weber. The Elon Inc. Theme is 516 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 2: written and performed by Taka Yasuzawa and Alex Sugiyira. Sage 517 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,640 Speaker 2: Bauman is the head of Bloomberg Podcast and our executive producer. 518 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:24,360 Speaker 2: I am David Papadopolis. If you have a minute, rate 519 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:27,320 Speaker 2: and review our show, it'll help other listeners find us. 520 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:29,920 Speaker 2: See you next week.