1 00:00:02,400 --> 00:00:06,000 Speaker 1: You're listening to Law and Order Criminal Justice System, a 2 00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:16,160 Speaker 1: production of Wolf Entertainment and iHeart Podcasts. Hey Law and 3 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:20,840 Speaker 1: Order CJS listeners, Welcome back for this special bonus episode. 4 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 1: As we got deeper into the terrorism cases we featured 5 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:26,680 Speaker 1: in season two, we kept coming back to some of 6 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 1: the same questions. How does someone become radicalized to the 7 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:35,239 Speaker 1: point of committing such violence against other people? Are there 8 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:38,519 Speaker 1: things that might make one person more susceptible to extremism 9 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:42,640 Speaker 1: than others? And the million dollar question, can we prevent 10 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:46,839 Speaker 1: that violence by identifying certain traits? Of course, there's no 11 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:50,240 Speaker 1: one size fits all in any of this, but luckily 12 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:52,880 Speaker 1: for us, we met someone who can address these very 13 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 1: questions and more. Ari Kuglanski is a professor of psychology 14 00:00:57,160 --> 00:01:01,480 Speaker 1: at the University of Maryland. Today a conversation with Professor 15 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:07,680 Speaker 1: Kruglansky about the psychology surrounding both extremism and radicalization. When 16 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: we spoke, I started by asking Ari about his background 17 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:12,479 Speaker 1: and what exactly he studies. 18 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 2: My research has been in radicalization, terrorism and the motivational 19 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:24,120 Speaker 2: basis of it all, the psychology of terrorism. I was 20 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 2: a founding member of the National Center of Excellence for 21 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:32,120 Speaker 2: the study of terrorism and the response to terrorism, bringing 22 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:35,400 Speaker 2: in the psychological dimension that to me is crucial. 23 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:37,759 Speaker 3: And I have studied terrorists all over the world. 24 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:39,840 Speaker 1: All right, where did you grow up? 25 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 3: I'm still trying to grow up. 26 00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 1: Aren't we all? We never want to think we got 27 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:46,480 Speaker 1: all the way there. 28 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 2: So I was born in Poland. I grew up in Israel, 29 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 2: actually from Poland. In nineteen fifty my parents immigrated to Israel, 30 00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:00,200 Speaker 2: and I was with them. Of course, I did my 31 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 2: high school education, my military service in Israel, and subsequently 32 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 2: I went to Canada to University of Toronto to obtain 33 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:12,360 Speaker 2: my BA in psychology, and from there I went to 34 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:14,360 Speaker 2: UCLA to obtain my doctorate. 35 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:19,680 Speaker 1: I wonder, what was your knowledge of terrorism before actually 36 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 1: starting to study it yourself professionally? 37 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:26,919 Speaker 2: It was very limited. I grew up during Second World War. 38 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 2: I mean my early childhood was in a Jewish ghetto 39 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 2: in the city of Lodge, So I was immersed in 40 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:39,559 Speaker 2: an environment that was suffused with danger. Very few people survived. 41 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 2: Our family was one of the very lucky ones. But 42 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 2: out of a quarter of a million people, eight hundred 43 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 2: families survived, and we were one of those. So danger 44 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:52,640 Speaker 2: was very much part of my life in Israel, I 45 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 2: participated in several of the wars. I was exposed to 46 00:02:56,120 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 2: extremists and violence throughout, but strangely, it was never an 47 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:04,800 Speaker 2: interest of mine as a psychologist. I was interested in 48 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 2: how people think, never anything to do with extremism. 49 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 1: And before we get into some of the specific cases, 50 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:14,359 Speaker 1: are just a little bit more into the actual psychology 51 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:18,799 Speaker 1: of terrorism. When did you first become interested in the 52 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:20,400 Speaker 1: field and what led you there. 53 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 2: I'm primarily interested in them million dollar question of why 54 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 2: people become terrorists, why they radicalize, what is the motivation 55 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 2: behind it. I was a theoretical empirical psychologist, minding my 56 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 2: business doing laboratory research with university students as participants all along, 57 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:44,360 Speaker 2: very interested in psychological theory. 58 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 3: I still am. 59 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 2: But when the nine to eleven attack happened, everything changed. 60 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 2: The National Academies of Science wrote a letter to President 61 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 2: George W. Bush offering its services in understanding terrorism, and 62 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 2: President Bush agreed, and as a consequence, panels were established 63 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 2: in various scientific disciplines, and it was my good fortune 64 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:12,120 Speaker 2: to be invited to one of these panels on the 65 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:16,560 Speaker 2: social and behavioral aspects of terrorism. And at that point 66 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 2: there was a competition for National Centers of Excellence for 67 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:25,440 Speaker 2: the Study of Terrorism. Our university competed along with seventy 68 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 2: two others, including all the most illustrious universities in the nation, 69 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:35,880 Speaker 2: and nobody was more surprised than us when the winner 70 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:37,240 Speaker 2: was announced. 71 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 3: Because it was US. 72 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 2: So I was a co founder of that Center for 73 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:44,719 Speaker 2: the Study of Terrorism, and by now I think I'm 74 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 2: beginning to understand what terrorism and nordicalization are all about. 75 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:53,680 Speaker 1: When was the organization actually founded or when did that 76 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 1: competition take place about. 77 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 2: This was about twenty years ago. I think that the 78 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:01,359 Speaker 2: center was established in two two thousand and five. 79 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:07,920 Speaker 1: When we talk about terrorism, generally, obviously it's a criminal act. 80 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:09,919 Speaker 1: But when we talk about criminal acts, it can be 81 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 1: motivated by many different things. What makes terrorism different if 82 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 1: we're looking at it from that perspective, like the acts 83 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:22,880 Speaker 1: versus the motivation. I guess if you're looking at terrorism. 84 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:27,560 Speaker 2: Yes, acts of terrorism are extremely diverse. You had the 85 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 2: left wing terrorism in Europe, in South America, the kind 86 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:36,240 Speaker 2: of Mao East Leninist terrorism all over South America, in 87 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:42,000 Speaker 2: Peru and other places. You had the jihadi terrorism al Qaeda, 88 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 2: I SES. You had at non nationalist terrorists, the Basque terrorists, 89 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 2: terrorism in Spain, the kind of terrorism that liberated Algeria, 90 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 2: liberated Israel, liberated Cyprus, liberated Kenya. They were engaging in 91 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 2: that terror but for nationalist cause. So on the one hand, 92 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 2: there are extremely diverse. Now you have environmental terrorism in 93 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 2: the name of environmental causes, animal rights. It can be 94 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:13,360 Speaker 2: anything at all. At the same time, there is a 95 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 2: communality to it. The core psychology is the same. The 96 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 2: differences are in contents of specific ideologies. Because terrorism is 97 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:29,040 Speaker 2: an ideological crime. It's unlike greed driven crime of gangs 98 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 2: that want just to get rich or the families that 99 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:36,040 Speaker 2: you mentioned. They want power, they want wealth. The terrorists 100 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:39,600 Speaker 2: are different. They are doing it in the name of 101 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:44,040 Speaker 2: an ideology. A friend of mine, anthropologist Professor Scott A. 102 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 2: Tron talks about the devoted actor. They are devoted to 103 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 2: an ideal, and the ideal can be religious, it can 104 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 2: be nationalists, it can be anything like that. 105 00:06:56,760 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 1: When we talk about the types of terrorism, is the 106 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:04,279 Speaker 1: motivation the same or different? When we're talking about the 107 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 1: different types. 108 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 2: People at large do not understand motivation. Understanding motivation is 109 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 2: crucial because only when we understand motivation we can provide 110 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:23,560 Speaker 2: alternative ways, pro social, non destructive ways of addressing that motivation. 111 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 2: And that's about the only way whereby radicalization and extrevism 112 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:32,560 Speaker 2: can be fought. The way I understand it is that 113 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:37,400 Speaker 2: people have a limited set of basic motives, and everything 114 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 2: that we do, all the infinity of goals that we 115 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 2: have that are different from country to country, from culture 116 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 2: to culture, from context to context, ultimately go back to 117 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 2: this top of the pyramid, the basic needs. When people 118 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 2: ask why a mass shooter carried out the mass shooting, 119 00:07:56,160 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 2: the answers they sometimes give because this person hated people 120 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:05,280 Speaker 2: of color, because this person wasn't a neo Nazi, But 121 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 2: this is not the prime mover of this phenomenon. The 122 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 2: prime mover goes to those basic motives, and one of 123 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 2: the most important basic motives that people have is the 124 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 2: desire to feel that they matter, that they are significant. 125 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 2: This is a motivation that animates us all on an 126 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 2: everyday basis. You want to be significant by dint of 127 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 2: the work you do. I want to be significant. Nobody 128 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 2: wants to be ghost that. Nobody wants to be disrespected, 129 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:39,359 Speaker 2: nobody wants to be discriminated against. Nobody wants to be humiliated. 130 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:43,360 Speaker 2: So everybody has that motivation. The question is how this 131 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 2: motivation is channeled, and very often the motivation can be 132 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 2: channeled in destructive ways through violence. 133 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 1: When we talked last, you talked a little bit about 134 00:08:56,679 --> 00:09:00,960 Speaker 1: there's actually a psychological model of extremism. Can you explain 135 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 1: that a little bit. 136 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 2: We have a theory of extremism places the utmost weight 137 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 2: on what we call motivational imbalance. Motivational imbalance happens when 138 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 2: one need is so dominant that it suppresses, overshadows, overrides 139 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 2: all the other concerns. And now those concerns usually would 140 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 2: limit the kind of acts we would engage in. 141 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 1: How does extremism show itself within terrorism because it seems 142 00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:37,880 Speaker 1: to become an overriding principle for the person who ultimately 143 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 1: is committing the act. 144 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:43,439 Speaker 2: Yes, we call it the three an model. The three 145 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 2: ends in the model, the first end is the need, 146 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:49,439 Speaker 2: and this is the need for significance. The second end 147 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 2: is the narrative. How the guide posts for significance? 148 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:54,200 Speaker 3: What do you need to do? 149 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 2: The narrative can be you've got to do good works, 150 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:02,040 Speaker 2: you've got to have a professional achievements, or it can 151 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:05,080 Speaker 2: be there is an enemy at the gates, and you've 152 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 2: got to fight him. For example, the great Replacement theory 153 00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 2: alleges that people of color, immigrants, and others are about 154 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 2: to take America away from its rightful owners, the white people, 155 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 2: and that the ideology suggests you've got to fight these people. 156 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:26,040 Speaker 2: You've got to be violent and show them that they 157 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:29,080 Speaker 2: cannot do what they intend to do. They cannot take 158 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 2: America away from its rightful owners, the whites. That's one example. 159 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:38,600 Speaker 2: And finally, the third end is the network. The narrative 160 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:42,079 Speaker 2: does not exist in a vacuum. The narrative is a 161 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 2: shared reality that is common to a. 162 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:46,320 Speaker 3: Group of people. 163 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:49,680 Speaker 2: You're in group, your culture, the kind of people you 164 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:54,959 Speaker 2: respect and whose respect ucravy in return. The network validates 165 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:58,120 Speaker 2: the narrative. They tells you, yes, this narrative is correct. 166 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 2: We all believe it. And if you behave according to 167 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 2: what the narrative tells you to do, if you fight, 168 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 2: if you engage in self sacrifice, even if you become 169 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:11,960 Speaker 2: a suicide bomber ready to die on alter of the cause, 170 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 2: the network is going to reward you in life, and 171 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:18,720 Speaker 2: after that, your name is going to be engrave in 172 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 2: the group's collective memory, you're going to have immortality, You're 173 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:24,760 Speaker 2: going to go down in history. 174 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:28,480 Speaker 1: Is there a personality or a type of person that 175 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:32,720 Speaker 1: is more prone to be caught up in that type 176 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 1: of extremism? 177 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 3: Excellent question. 178 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:40,320 Speaker 2: In the history of research on extremism, the first idea 179 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 2: was that extremism and terrorism are kind of psychopathologists. These 180 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 2: people are really mentally disturbed because one could not understand 181 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:55,320 Speaker 2: why would they engage in this seemingly wanton acts of 182 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 2: violence against innocence, against women, children, the elderly. 183 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 3: We would not do that. 184 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:04,120 Speaker 2: Therefore, because they do it, they must be different from us, 185 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:09,360 Speaker 2: they must be crazy. That research over time discovered that 186 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:11,800 Speaker 2: they are not crazy at all. Many of them are 187 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 2: completely well balanced. So the idea that they are crazy 188 00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:19,200 Speaker 2: went out the window, and now nobody seriously considers that 189 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:23,560 Speaker 2: it's a mental pathology. But that does not mean that 190 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 2: each one of us is equally prone to extremism. People 191 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:32,319 Speaker 2: are different in their individual characteristics. Some are more aggressive 192 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 2: than others, Some are more willing to embark on violence 193 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:40,320 Speaker 2: than others. Some are more persuadable than others. Therefore, they 194 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:43,960 Speaker 2: will be more persuaded by narratives that call people to 195 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:48,599 Speaker 2: arms and to engage in extremism. So their individual differences, 196 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:54,080 Speaker 2: not anybody, not everybody, is equally likely to engage in extremism. We, 197 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:58,200 Speaker 2: by the way, have developed a scale that measures people 198 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:02,319 Speaker 2: propensity to be extreme. We show that these skills predict 199 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 2: not only violent extremism but political extremism. So there is 200 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 2: a core dynamic that some people possess more than others 201 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 2: that predisposes people to engage in extreme acts. And this 202 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:21,400 Speaker 2: dynamic is the ability to prioritize one needs and suppress 203 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 2: everything else and therefore justify the engagement in whatever serves 204 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 2: the dominant need. So we have massive data to show 205 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:32,680 Speaker 2: that kind of personality exists. 206 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 3: And these people, in addition. 207 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:38,600 Speaker 2: To all kinds of other extremists, could also become violent extremists, 208 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:43,000 Speaker 2: could be attracted to a terrorist organization extremists of that kind. 209 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit like now you have 210 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:51,959 Speaker 1: these homegrown terrorists, Like here's a US citizen targeting their own. 211 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:56,760 Speaker 2: I'm now a member of a NATO panel that is 212 00:13:56,800 --> 00:14:00,960 Speaker 2: studying the radicalization of members of the midilitary in the 213 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:05,320 Speaker 2: member nations because it's spreading plague the military. But the 214 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 2: military attained their significance through acts of violence by definition, 215 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:14,240 Speaker 2: So they are reared and cultivated in order to be 216 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 2: heroes via violence, and therefore they are so attractive to 217 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:25,080 Speaker 2: radical movements because they know how to activate explosives, they 218 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 2: know how to use weapons. They bring the aura of 219 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 2: the military, So that idea of attaining significance through military 220 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 2: glory is what characterized McVeigh and many other radicals in 221 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 2: the ranks of the military. Many of the people who 222 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:46,400 Speaker 2: participated in January sixth where former military or active military, 223 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 2: and many of the mass shooters in the history of 224 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 2: mass shooting in the United States had military background. So 225 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 2: the military cultivates the idea that significance can be attained 226 00:14:57,680 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 2: through violence. 227 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 1: When we look at larger proportions of those that are 228 00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 1: committing whether it's the terrorist acts, homegrown or mass shootings, 229 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:09,720 Speaker 1: obviously many people coming out of the military are not 230 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 1: committing these crimes. Are there certain personalities that make people 231 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:16,080 Speaker 1: more susceptible to that. 232 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 2: The extremest personality is people who feel that by leaving 233 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 2: the military, whether discharge honorably or not, they lost the 234 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:30,960 Speaker 2: glamor of being in active military. There is a loss 235 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 2: of significance by departure from the military. The military is 236 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:39,520 Speaker 2: honored in our country and across the world. Actually, our 237 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 2: men and women in uniform be the best you can be. 238 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 2: The recognition at airports for active military to board the 239 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:53,120 Speaker 2: planes as a privilege, all of that betokens great respect 240 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:56,600 Speaker 2: for the military. Once you leave the military, you lose significance. 241 00:15:56,920 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 2: Some people can cope with it better than others. Some 242 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 2: people can turn their lives around and find significance in 243 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 2: a different domain. But the military significance is very difficult 244 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:13,239 Speaker 2: to replace, especially for men. It's a huge claim to significance. 245 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:17,600 Speaker 2: We have carried out research in Sri Lanka among members 246 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 2: of the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Elam who finally were 247 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 2: defeated and reintegrated into the Tamil society. And we interviewed 248 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 2: one person, for example, who was a translator. So we 249 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:33,320 Speaker 2: asked him, how do you feel now that you're integrated 250 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 2: into society, you can support your family. How do you 251 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 2: feel in your integrated face into the Sri Lankan society? 252 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:44,680 Speaker 2: And he said, I feel okay, but I felt much 253 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:47,880 Speaker 2: better as a fighter. So there's a glory that the 254 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 2: military can afford and difficult to match in alternative occupations, 255 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:57,640 Speaker 2: especially when one does not have what it takes to 256 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 2: have a successful civilian. So I think the veterans are 257 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 2: in a very difficult situation, and those who are less 258 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:10,080 Speaker 2: able to fit in have tychological problems or other problems, 259 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 2: very often gravitate to where they can find significance, which 260 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:19,120 Speaker 2: is i militant movements where they are very welcome because 261 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:22,879 Speaker 2: of their military skills, of the aura of the army 262 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:23,880 Speaker 2: and the military that. 263 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:25,160 Speaker 3: They bring with them. 264 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 2: So that's the dynamic why so many of them are 265 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:30,399 Speaker 2: gravitating to the far RYE. 266 00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about jihattest extremism, because 267 00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:39,240 Speaker 1: it really seems to have been a phenomenon that really 268 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:43,399 Speaker 1: has become synonymous with just even the word terrorism today. 269 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:48,080 Speaker 2: Well, it's a very dangerous brand of terrorism. It's very 270 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:51,560 Speaker 2: active in large parts of the world, in Africa, in 271 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 2: the Middle East, of course, in Southeast Asia, in Central Asia. 272 00:17:56,720 --> 00:18:00,919 Speaker 2: It started with the Salafi ideologies, that the kind of 273 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:05,680 Speaker 2: fundamentalist ideology of what pure Islam means and the fact 274 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 2: that the Western cultures and the Western oriented governments in 275 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:16,879 Speaker 2: Islamic nations are corrupting the true meaning of Islam. Hasan 276 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:22,159 Speaker 2: Bana said, who experienced the West felt that what the 277 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:26,680 Speaker 2: West is doing is corrupting the purity of Islam, is 278 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:30,720 Speaker 2: corrupting Muslims, and it has to be fought. And that 279 00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:36,440 Speaker 2: call to arms these people sounded. It led to the 280 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:43,440 Speaker 2: Islamist movements, Muslim Brotherhood, al Qaeda, Islamic State, very powerful 281 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:48,920 Speaker 2: movement again that rested on a very powerful ideology, religious 282 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 2: ideology quoted, misquoted, quoted out of context, versus from the 283 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 2: Qur'an and the Hadid, And they convinced thereby people that 284 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 2: is the true version of Islam and issued the call 285 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:06,720 Speaker 2: to arms. And as I said before, the call to 286 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 2: arms is a great deal of appeal, especially for young men, 287 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:16,920 Speaker 2: and especially when it's embedded in a very powerful religious ideology, 288 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:21,040 Speaker 2: it is very attractive and messes of people swarm to 289 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:27,360 Speaker 2: it to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan, people Indonesia swarming 290 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 2: to Syria and Iraq to join Isis is a very 291 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:36,879 Speaker 2: powerful ideology that carries a lot of appeal to messes 292 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:37,359 Speaker 2: of people. 293 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 1: Obviously, the two that come to mind are Al Qaeda 294 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:48,000 Speaker 1: and Isis anything different in the psychology ideology of them 295 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:50,320 Speaker 1: or is it two different groups that really are For 296 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:54,000 Speaker 1: looking at psychology and the various belief systems are at 297 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:56,000 Speaker 1: least on parallel tracks. 298 00:19:56,960 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 2: We analyze the speeches of as Kawi and Osama bin Ladin. 299 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:07,960 Speaker 2: Ossa bin Laden was more ideological, more religious, more abstract, 300 00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:12,160 Speaker 2: more general. Bringing the caliphate is the kind of long 301 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 2: term goal, whereas the alzar Kawi and al Baghdadi and 302 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:21,440 Speaker 2: the ISIS were more concrete, more concerned with the here 303 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:24,880 Speaker 2: and now. They were very quick in establishing the caliphate 304 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 2: in twenty fourteen. For al Qaeda, this was the kind 305 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:33,040 Speaker 2: of end of time utopia that they were striving for. 306 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 3: For Zarkawi, this was something very concrete. 307 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:40,240 Speaker 2: So there are some differences the ideology in the also 308 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:43,840 Speaker 2: in the sheer brutality of ISIS as compared to al 309 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:47,439 Speaker 2: Qaeda that was frowned upon by leaders of al Qaeda 310 00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:52,879 Speaker 2: such as al Zawairi. These were different movements in the details, 311 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:58,360 Speaker 2: in the concreteness versus abstractness, the kind of universalism versus localism, 312 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:02,680 Speaker 2: but they both were very appealing, and the fall of 313 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 2: the caliphat made him less appealing to followers. But still 314 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:12,400 Speaker 2: it's a powerful movement that keeps active in various parts 315 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:17,320 Speaker 2: of the world and still recruits followers in a very 316 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:21,560 Speaker 2: massive way, although not as much as it was during 317 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 2: the high day of the caliphate, So it's still a 318 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:39,960 Speaker 2: movement that needs to be reckoned with. 319 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:43,159 Speaker 1: With some of these specific cases and belief systems that 320 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:45,760 Speaker 1: we're really starting to study here, it does seem that 321 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:50,920 Speaker 1: the concept of a leaderless resistance started to be seen 322 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 1: as the face behind those terrorist acts. Meaning used to 323 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:57,119 Speaker 1: be that you had the head of an organization that 324 00:21:57,280 --> 00:21:59,919 Speaker 1: specific cause, and everything was done in that name or 325 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:02,920 Speaker 1: under that direction. So it was described at some point 326 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:04,639 Speaker 1: to us as you cut off the head of the 327 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:09,679 Speaker 1: snake and the organization fractures and slowly disappears. But what 328 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:12,919 Speaker 1: we really started to see both in the eighties and 329 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 1: really up to today, is much less of that. It's 330 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:20,600 Speaker 1: these individuals that, again leaderless. They have this belief system 331 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:25,240 Speaker 1: in place, but they're operating almost on their own. Have 332 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:29,959 Speaker 1: you seen or done any work on that. What accounts 333 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:34,479 Speaker 1: for the psychology of that actor versus what we were 334 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 1: seeing earlier in time. 335 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:42,119 Speaker 2: That's a very interesting phenomenon, the lone wolf phenomenon, a 336 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:46,919 Speaker 2: leaderless resistance phenomenon. It has to do with the third 337 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:50,680 Speaker 2: element of the three N model, the network, the network 338 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:54,200 Speaker 2: can be a face to face network of a small 339 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:56,760 Speaker 2: group of people, like in the case of batter Mind 340 00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:00,600 Speaker 2: of Brigade Rossa. This is a kind of prototypic terrorist 341 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:04,200 Speaker 2: organization of the nineteen eighties. But it can also be 342 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:07,520 Speaker 2: a more diffuse group. It can be a group of 343 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:12,199 Speaker 2: people who share the same beliefs and they partake of 344 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 2: them on the internet. The lone wolves aren't really alone, 345 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:20,679 Speaker 2: that's the emerging consensus among terrorist researchers. Even when the 346 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:26,120 Speaker 2: person is physically alone, they have an imagined network. For example, 347 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 2: Anders Bravig, the Norwegian who killed seventy people in the 348 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:34,840 Speaker 2: island of Utoya, believe that he is a member of 349 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 2: a Knights templar and he is carrying out a fight 350 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:44,080 Speaker 2: for the white Norwegians. Ted Kashynski wrote a manifesto for 351 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:48,240 Speaker 2: an audience, so there's always an audience, always a presumed 352 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:51,880 Speaker 2: network that would support their deeds and for whom this 353 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:55,719 Speaker 2: person would become a hero. So the network can be 354 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 2: very closely neat and face to face one, but it 355 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:02,520 Speaker 2: can also be very diffuse. As long as the person 356 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:05,200 Speaker 2: knows that there is a group of people who would 357 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:09,640 Speaker 2: approve of what they're doing, so they are empowered authorized 358 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:14,159 Speaker 2: to carry out acts of violence. They know that they 359 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 2: are not alone, that there is a group of people 360 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:21,119 Speaker 2: and audience that are going to consider them heroic and 361 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:22,880 Speaker 2: celebrate them as martyrs. 362 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 3: And that is actually the case. 363 00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:29,520 Speaker 2: People remember those individuals who carried out those ads, and 364 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 2: their manifestos are widely read, and future generations of extremists 365 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:37,200 Speaker 2: are modeling after those heroes as it were. 366 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:44,159 Speaker 1: What about people working together versus working alone? Does psychology 367 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:48,800 Speaker 1: point to people being more or less likely to commit 368 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:52,679 Speaker 1: acts together in groups versus alone? And what impact do 369 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 1: numbers of people have on the psychology of terrorism. 370 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:00,640 Speaker 2: There is a dimension of sociability. Some people are more 371 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:05,760 Speaker 2: sociable than others. Some people are less sociable. The lone 372 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:07,840 Speaker 2: wolves are usually less sociable. 373 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:10,479 Speaker 3: There is research that shows. 374 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:15,280 Speaker 2: That a larger proportion of them have actually psychological problems. 375 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 2: So the lone wolves do not fit very well into society. 376 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:23,840 Speaker 2: They have suffered blows to their esteem because of their 377 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 2: lack of social skills, and other people are attracted to 378 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:31,520 Speaker 2: the narrative that is propounded by the group. This would 379 00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:35,960 Speaker 2: be the sociable individuals. And among those people who act 380 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:39,800 Speaker 2: violently in groups, there are people who are more committed 381 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:44,919 Speaker 2: the hardcore, the leaders, and the followers, the joiners, And 382 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:49,680 Speaker 2: it's the joiners that we find are easier to deradicalize 383 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:53,280 Speaker 2: because they are kind of opportunistic joiners. They join it 384 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 2: because it seemed like a good idea at the time 385 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:58,480 Speaker 2: they got the recognition, but they are not as committed 386 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,640 Speaker 2: to it. Within the social groups, there is a distinction 387 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:05,040 Speaker 2: between the hardcore and the followers, and the followers are 388 00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:08,720 Speaker 2: kind of easy come, easy go, They join easily, but 389 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:10,400 Speaker 2: they're radicalized more easily. 390 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:13,240 Speaker 1: And that just makes me think of the different types 391 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 1: of Unfortunately, something that we see more and more is 392 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:20,240 Speaker 1: these school shootings for example, right, which I view as 393 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:22,919 Speaker 1: a type of terrorism. What can you talk about the 394 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:28,000 Speaker 1: psychology of because they are almost always these loan actors, 395 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:32,240 Speaker 1: is that more of have felt marginalized themselves and this 396 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:33,040 Speaker 1: is retribution. 397 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:33,240 Speaker 3: Right. 398 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 1: So I don't see that, at least in my own eyes, 399 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:39,119 Speaker 1: as going towards any specific ideology. 400 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 2: Well, the ideology does not have to be a very elaborate, philosophical, 401 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:50,399 Speaker 2: well developed set of arguments. It can be simply a 402 00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:53,240 Speaker 2: guide of what one needs to do to be significant. 403 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:55,919 Speaker 3: It can be for a greater cause. 404 00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:59,399 Speaker 2: It can be just to show that you cannot be 405 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:03,160 Speaker 2: try with you have agency, you have power. You can 406 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:06,320 Speaker 2: show those people who bullied you in school, and there 407 00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:08,960 Speaker 2: is a lot of evidence that many of those school 408 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:14,280 Speaker 2: shooters were actually excluded, discriminated against, bullied in schools, to 409 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:19,040 Speaker 2: show that they cannot be treated as inferior, they cannot 410 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:23,160 Speaker 2: be treated as weak. They can enhance their status by shooting. 411 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:26,920 Speaker 2: So it's not a collective ideology. It's just an attempt 412 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:30,440 Speaker 2: to show that they matter, that they have significance. So 413 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:35,240 Speaker 2: the ideological part can be a very broad ideology that 414 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:39,240 Speaker 2: appeals to masses of people. All members of a given religion, 415 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:43,199 Speaker 2: all members of a given nation, would be resonant to 416 00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:48,480 Speaker 2: an ideology that tells you your nation, your religion were discriminated, 417 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 2: were humiliated. But it can be also something very personal. 418 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:55,840 Speaker 2: You were belittled by these bullies that beat you up, 419 00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:57,080 Speaker 2: that excluded you. 420 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:02,480 Speaker 1: And thinking more about present day, can you talk about 421 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:06,720 Speaker 1: the impact that you have seen in your work by 422 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:09,359 Speaker 1: modern technology like social media. 423 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:16,080 Speaker 2: The social media has two major impacts that facilitate radicalization. 424 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:20,200 Speaker 2: One is the idea of eco chambers, the fact that 425 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:24,919 Speaker 2: you can find whatever you believe in however strange and 426 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:28,640 Speaker 2: esoteric it may be. On the Internet. Online, you can 427 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:32,080 Speaker 2: find other people who would share your beliefs. So it's 428 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:36,000 Speaker 2: easy to find a narrative embraced by a network that 429 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 2: in previous times would have been impossible to find or 430 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 2: very difficult to find. Now, if you're a white suprematist, 431 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:46,320 Speaker 2: whatever the ideology that you subscribe to, you can find 432 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:50,239 Speaker 2: like minded people on the Internet. That's one aspect that 433 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:55,280 Speaker 2: allows radicalization on the Internet to be so pervasive. The 434 00:28:55,320 --> 00:29:00,000 Speaker 2: second is that the Internet, the social media, just enhance 435 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:04,880 Speaker 2: s catalyzes the concern about your significance. People compete for 436 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 2: significance because of the social media. How many likes do 437 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:13,400 Speaker 2: you have, how many Facebook friends, whether your posts are shared. 438 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:17,400 Speaker 2: It all enhances. It turns into a kind of frenzy 439 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:21,680 Speaker 2: for significance, frenzy for social comparison. And I think that 440 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:27,600 Speaker 2: enhances people's craving for significance that can be very often accomplished. 441 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:30,640 Speaker 2: You know, it's very easy to attend significance through violence 442 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 2: because of the appeal of violence, the fact that violence 443 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:37,560 Speaker 2: gets attention. So the social media would not encourage you 444 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:41,000 Speaker 2: to embark on a career that takes years to develop, 445 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:45,120 Speaker 2: but they can encourage you to attack other people as 446 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:48,520 Speaker 2: a road to significance. So in that sense, both in 447 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 2: terms of the motivational aspect of social comparison and facilitating 448 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:57,720 Speaker 2: enhancing the quest for significance and finding the narrative and 449 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:00,560 Speaker 2: the network that would tell you this is the Ruto 450 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:01,920 Speaker 2: significance through violence. 451 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:05,840 Speaker 1: How would it be psychologically relevant that people can be 452 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 1: radicalized really sitting in their own homes and their own apartments, 453 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:13,120 Speaker 1: one by one, as opposed to if we look in 454 00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:15,600 Speaker 1: the past like ku kuks Klan for example, like they 455 00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:18,200 Speaker 1: got together as a group and they fed off one another, 456 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:22,760 Speaker 1: right where now the Internet in particular really can target 457 00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:24,760 Speaker 1: people one by one. 458 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 2: Yes, I think we live in very dangerous times because 459 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:31,440 Speaker 2: of that. We live in times of turmoil, and the 460 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:36,480 Speaker 2: social media enhances that turmoil. It's a very difficult time 461 00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:39,480 Speaker 2: that we live in. And the question is how to 462 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:44,239 Speaker 2: utilize the online opportunities in order to carry out a 463 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:50,680 Speaker 2: preventive policies that would discourage people from embarking on violence 464 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:54,680 Speaker 2: for the sake of significance and to me, psychological literacy, 465 00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:58,920 Speaker 2: letting people understand what it is that they're doing, why 466 00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:01,840 Speaker 2: are they doing that because there is a big confusion 467 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:04,640 Speaker 2: of why people do what they do. When people talk 468 00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:09,720 Speaker 2: about motivation, people say Timo tim McVeigh was motivated by 469 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:13,840 Speaker 2: his aversion toward the government. Yes, it's true, but that 470 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:17,720 Speaker 2: is not the cause. The cause was his craving for significance. 471 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:21,480 Speaker 2: That was the means. One should not confuse the means 472 00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 2: with the end. The end is significance. And once people 473 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:29,480 Speaker 2: understand that that what they're doing is in order to 474 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:33,680 Speaker 2: feel significant, to have significance, maybe we can talk about 475 00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:38,200 Speaker 2: alternative ways of gaining significance. But once people feel so 476 00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:43,520 Speaker 2: assured that what they do is for Islam, or for democracy, 477 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:48,160 Speaker 2: for freedom, or for animal rights or whatever, they feel 478 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:52,760 Speaker 2: holier than now and they feel so committed to their 479 00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:55,760 Speaker 2: ideology that it would be very difficult to counter it. 480 00:31:56,040 --> 00:32:01,800 Speaker 2: I think the psychological counter radicalization should make people literate 481 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:05,720 Speaker 2: about the real reason, the real causes of what they're doing, 482 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:08,160 Speaker 2: and that is the quest for significance. 483 00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:13,360 Speaker 1: In twenty twenty two, there was a shooting in Buffalo 484 00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:18,479 Speaker 1: that killed ten which everything points to that what's been 485 00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:21,880 Speaker 1: called an accelerationist attack, which was really hoped to spark 486 00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:25,520 Speaker 1: something bigger. Has any work been done that you're aware 487 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:27,720 Speaker 1: of or that you've done. Really on the psychology, that's 488 00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:32,880 Speaker 1: like committing these acts hoping to spark something else that's bigger. 489 00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:38,280 Speaker 2: The terrorist does not assume in most cases that their 490 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:43,000 Speaker 2: action alone would promote the kind of societal change, the 491 00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:47,560 Speaker 2: kind of revolution that's going to change the world in 492 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:52,560 Speaker 2: their desired direction. But the ideology is that every little 493 00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:57,360 Speaker 2: bit helps and through their action, the accelerationist movement is 494 00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:01,640 Speaker 2: going to bring about that revolution. Idea is that they 495 00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:06,200 Speaker 2: attain their significance just by doing whatever they can, but 496 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:10,120 Speaker 2: later on the events will take care of themselves and 497 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:15,440 Speaker 2: that desired revolution will happen. That accelerationist movement is also 498 00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:20,760 Speaker 2: part and parcel of the previous ideology that terrorists should 499 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:25,520 Speaker 2: provoke the government to an excessive response, and that excessive 500 00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:29,680 Speaker 2: response would be recognized by the people as being an overreach, 501 00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:32,680 Speaker 2: and that in turn would lead to a revolution. 502 00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:38,560 Speaker 1: What about the psychology of the victims themselves survivors? When 503 00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:41,680 Speaker 1: there is not accountability right, when no one claims responsibility, 504 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:44,920 Speaker 1: when no one is brought to trial or convicted, it's 505 00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:48,320 Speaker 1: an open ended question. How do you think that affects 506 00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:52,000 Speaker 1: someone's psychologically versus when there is that result. 507 00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:56,560 Speaker 2: People call it in psychology lack of cognitive closure. You 508 00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:59,760 Speaker 2: have lack of closure, You have an uncertainty something is 509 00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:04,320 Speaker 2: un resolved, and the sense of uncertainty predisposes you to 510 00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:09,000 Speaker 2: the very very difficult experience to have this lack of closure, 511 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:10,480 Speaker 2: to have this idea. 512 00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:11,560 Speaker 3: That you are diminished. 513 00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:14,759 Speaker 2: A random event has happened to you, and it can 514 00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:17,480 Speaker 2: happen again, and there is nothing you can do about it. 515 00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:22,000 Speaker 2: So it's a very upsetting, diminishing kind of experience. And 516 00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:26,000 Speaker 2: these are people that suffer a lot, and presumably they 517 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:30,759 Speaker 2: would be also more vulnerable to all kinds of narratives 518 00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:33,440 Speaker 2: that tell them what to do in order to alleviate 519 00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:34,120 Speaker 2: their suffering. 520 00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:39,920 Speaker 1: Now, taking all that has been learned about the psychology 521 00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:46,000 Speaker 1: of terrorism, has that helped point to any potential solutions 522 00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:49,920 Speaker 1: like how to combat this deadly phenomenon. 523 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:54,440 Speaker 2: It's extremely important how to find alternatives to terrorism, because 524 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:59,760 Speaker 2: there are alternative ways of gaining significance, pro social, constructive ways. 525 00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:03,280 Speaker 2: It's difficult for them to compete with violence because violence 526 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:05,279 Speaker 2: gives you an immediate ticket to heaven. 527 00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:07,200 Speaker 3: All you have to do is kill a few people. 528 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:12,080 Speaker 2: You're celebrated, you're a superstar, whereas the other ways of 529 00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:13,720 Speaker 2: gaining significance. 530 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:16,640 Speaker 3: Is climbing a very steep and lengthy hill. 531 00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:20,719 Speaker 2: It does keep morphing, and its life is change, and 532 00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:25,560 Speaker 2: the technology contributes to the change. Proliferation of cases where 533 00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:30,560 Speaker 2: people engage in acts of violence leads to modeling and copycatting. 534 00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:34,799 Speaker 2: The social media contribute to that. So the terrorism of 535 00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:40,080 Speaker 2: today is very different in form the terrorism of in 536 00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:43,520 Speaker 2: nineteen seventeen and nineteen eighties. I don't think that there 537 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:47,000 Speaker 2: is any consensus in the social sciences as to what 538 00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:51,840 Speaker 2: exactly should be done. There are models that are successful. 539 00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:55,640 Speaker 2: I think the model that is very successful is the 540 00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:57,920 Speaker 2: RHUs model in Denmark. 541 00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:00,920 Speaker 3: I worked with the progenitor of the model. 542 00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:06,520 Speaker 2: Barrison, and I think that the idea of recruiting the 543 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:11,719 Speaker 2: entire community to fight extremism. In other words, this is 544 00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:16,440 Speaker 2: a whole community effort in which the schools are involved, 545 00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:21,000 Speaker 2: the social services are involved, the religious institutions are involved, 546 00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:24,799 Speaker 2: and police are involved. So that people can turn to 547 00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:29,279 Speaker 2: the community when they feel the danger of their children radicalizing, 548 00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:34,440 Speaker 2: and the community has tools to offer their children alternative 549 00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:37,799 Speaker 2: ways to feel that they matter, to feel they have 550 00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:40,640 Speaker 2: social words. I think that's a good model because it 551 00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:44,000 Speaker 2: involves not just a bunch of psychologists. This is not 552 00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:49,080 Speaker 2: a job for individual psychologists. It's a job for entire communities. 553 00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:54,360 Speaker 2: And I think community integration, trust between police and the community, 554 00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:55,839 Speaker 2: trust between. 555 00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:58,840 Speaker 3: Schools, police, social institutions. 556 00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:03,279 Speaker 2: They have to be all united in the effort to 557 00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:08,439 Speaker 2: combat radicalization. They have to be informed about the psychology 558 00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:13,040 Speaker 2: of it all and find ways in their specific context 559 00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:17,880 Speaker 2: to recruit the kind of ways of addressing it that 560 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:21,600 Speaker 2: would converge from all these different points of view, all 561 00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:26,879 Speaker 2: these different parents, schools, religious leaders, youth leaders. That has 562 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:30,759 Speaker 2: to happen in order for this wave of potential extremism 563 00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:31,440 Speaker 2: to be fought. 564 00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:36,160 Speaker 1: I have to say it is fascinating hearing this. Doctor Kuglanski, 565 00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:38,760 Speaker 1: thank you so much for your work, because it's important work. 566 00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:39,879 Speaker 1: I really believe that. 567 00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:52,480 Speaker 2: Law and Order Criminal Justice System is the production of 568 00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:55,080 Speaker 2: Wolf Entertainment and iHeart Podcasts. 569 00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:58,160 Speaker 3: Our host is Anna Sega Nicolasi. 570 00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:02,600 Speaker 1: The show is written by Cooper Mall, executive produced by 571 00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:06,960 Speaker 1: Dick Wolf, Elliot Wolf and Stephen Michael at Wolf Entertainment 572 00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:12,319 Speaker 1: on behalf of iHeart Podcasts Executive producers Trevor Young and 573 00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:18,720 Speaker 1: Matt Frederick, with supervising producer Chandler Mays and producer Jesse Funk. 574 00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:23,000 Speaker 3: This season is executive produced by Anna Sega Nicolazzi. 575 00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:27,440 Speaker 1: Our researchers are Luke Stantz and Carolyn Tolmage. 576 00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:31,200 Speaker 2: Editing and sound designed by Trevor Young and Jesse Funk. 577 00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:36,400 Speaker 2: Original music by John O'Hara, Original theme by Mike Post 578 00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:40,919 Speaker 2: with additional music by Steve Moore and additional voice over 579 00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:42,919 Speaker 2: by me Steve Zernkelten. 580 00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:47,080 Speaker 1: Special thanks to Fox five in New York for providing 581 00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:48,920 Speaker 1: archival material for the show. 582 00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:53,080 Speaker 3: For more podcasts from iHeart in Wolf Entertainment, visit the 583 00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:57,840 Speaker 3: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows. 584 00:38:58,640 --> 00:38:59,560 Speaker 3: Thanks for listening.