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Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Sets podcast.

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Speaker 1: My guest today is Tom Fresker. He was chairman of

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Speaker 1: MTV Networks, chairman of Viacom, is chairman of the board

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Speaker 1: of the One Campaign. Tom. Great to have you here.

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Speaker 1: Great to be here, Bob. So what's going on with

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Speaker 1: the One Campaign. Well, we're in full mode these days

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Speaker 1: with the pandemic. We've kind of pivoted you know, One

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Speaker 1: the One campaigns and activists organizations, so basically think of

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Speaker 1: it like as the n r A for the extreme poor.

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Speaker 1: We're trying to lobby politicians either directly or through people

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Speaker 1: who are you know, activists, who who who worked with

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Speaker 1: which are millions of people, and to get them to

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Speaker 1: do the right things for the people, the poorest people

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Speaker 1: on the planet. And we focus on Africa, and since

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Speaker 1: March it's been COVID COVID but the whole time and

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Speaker 1: these days it's all about vaccine equity, which you read about.

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Speaker 1: You know, the fourteen percent of the people have seventy

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Speaker 1: percent of the orders in for the vaccines. There's hardly

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Speaker 1: any in Africa. And until everybody on this planet is activated,

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Speaker 1: is inoculated, or we reached some kind of herd immunity.

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Speaker 1: This thing is going to continue to mutate, could come

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Speaker 1: back and bite us in They asked us fourteen percent

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Speaker 1: of the people in the northern countries. So we're all

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Speaker 1: about that and we've been you know, it's been a

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Speaker 1: real uh change with Trump leaving and Biden coming in,

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Speaker 1: because right away he committed to six billion dollars for

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Speaker 1: vaccines for people in uh less developed countries. And that's

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Speaker 1: sort of what I'm doing. It's all vaccines, all the time.

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Speaker 1: Tell me more about the organization, the history and how

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Speaker 1: many people are working in fundraising, etcetera. Well, you know it.

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Speaker 1: Bano started it, and uh he had had a thing

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Speaker 1: called the One Campaign, and he had a thing called Red,

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Speaker 1: which was a different organization that sort of was an

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Speaker 1: arm into the private sector. And then he had another

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Speaker 1: organization called Data, which sort of assembled a lot of

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Speaker 1: data essentially about what was going on in the world.

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Speaker 1: This is back in two thousand and five. So he

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Speaker 1: started this organization and the idea was, let's see how

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Speaker 1: many members we can get and let's begin to put

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Speaker 1: pressure on some of these key legislatures in the States

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Speaker 1: and elsewhere. He was able to assemble basically a gaggle

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Speaker 1: of billionaires to fund this. I mean, we it's are.

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Speaker 1: What we say is we don't want your money, we

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Speaker 1: want your voice. But we've got Michael Bloomberg, Bill Gates,

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Speaker 1: Susie Buffett, you know, Jeff Skull, John Door, there's a

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Speaker 1: whole he's a great door opener, let's put it that way.

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Speaker 1: So it's funded privately. We've got about a hundred and

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Speaker 1: seventy employees. We've got twelve offices, uh main one is

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Speaker 1: in d C. But then we've got five or six

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Speaker 1: in uh in Africa, and we're you know, we're in Brussels,

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Speaker 1: were in Berlin, were in London, we're in Paris, we're

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Speaker 1: in Johannesburg, in Dakar, and the population of the people

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Speaker 1: who worked there are largely activists. I mean, we're not

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Speaker 1: not for profit. And uh, they're young, and they're smart

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Speaker 1: as hell, and they have swung literally billions and billions

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Speaker 1: of dollars from uh, you know, government budgets. Two Uh

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Speaker 1: do the right thing in a smart way. And I'm

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Speaker 1: not talking about a you know, uh foreign aid necessarily,

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Speaker 1: but it's been it's been very focused on health, also

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Speaker 1: agriculture and governance. So, um, we've got a board. I've

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Speaker 1: been the board chair for god, I guess it's like

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Speaker 1: thirteen or fourteen years. Now we've got an interesting board

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Speaker 1: and uh, you know, it's very fulfilling work for me

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Speaker 1: and very different. You know what I found when I

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Speaker 1: left MTV Networks and Viacom. You know, Bonna was the

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Speaker 1: first guy to call me up when I got fired.

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Speaker 1: He called me from dub and the next day we

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Speaker 1: had had her We had a we were friends and

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Speaker 1: had been together for a long time, not together, but

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Speaker 1: I mean MTV and you two kind of came up

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Speaker 1: and he said, why don't you come run Red, which

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Speaker 1: I barely knew about any I said, you know, I

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Speaker 1: just got fired last night. I'm not I'm not not

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Speaker 1: ready or really to make any big decisions right now

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Speaker 1: that he has. Bill Gates called me Steve's jobs call

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Speaker 1: me anyway. I put it off, And then about three

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Speaker 1: months later I went and saw him Paul at Paul

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Speaker 1: McGinnis is asking saying, please help this things kind of

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Speaker 1: you know, kind of coming apart. I said I would

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Speaker 1: study work for three months and see if we could

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Speaker 1: reorganize things, which I did do and in the process,

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Speaker 1: fell in love with the organization, fell in love with

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Speaker 1: what they did, and uh, it was like a whole

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Speaker 1: different group of young people, you know what I which

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Speaker 1: I have been working with for most of my career.

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Speaker 1: But they were they were activists. So I said I'd

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Speaker 1: stay on as the board chair and there I am today,

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Speaker 1: still doing it. How much of your time does it require? Well,

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Speaker 1: now it's about a third, I'd say. You know, our

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Speaker 1: CEO was just taken from us by Biden. He just

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Speaker 1: hired her, uh to come in and be sort of

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Speaker 1: the special envoy on vaccines. All the things we're advocating

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Speaker 1: for the USA to do, we now go to her

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Speaker 1: because she's in power and can and make those kind

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Speaker 1: of decisions. So it's inconvenient to lose your CEO. But

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Speaker 1: when you find out that she actually has the job,

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Speaker 1: that is the key to the highway, so to speak

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Speaker 1: for you know, helping us move along the vaccine equity spectrum.

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Speaker 1: It's it's it's good, but it's not full time. Historically,

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Speaker 1: there's been an issue of getting the money from the donors,

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Speaker 1: whether it be countries or individuals, into the hands of

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Speaker 1: the end user. I'm talking about foreign aid in general.

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Speaker 1: So what happens with the vaccines, Well, the vaccines go

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Speaker 1: through they get distributed. It depends by country, but basically

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Speaker 1: again they get distributed through the ministries of health in

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Speaker 1: these various countries who you know, and and funny in Africa,

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Speaker 1: because they've had a lot of experience with a bola

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Speaker 1: and other things, they actually are pretty set up for pandemics.

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Speaker 1: They have some experience in this area. So this is

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Speaker 1: not the type of thing that's likely to fall astray

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Speaker 1: and where you lose a lot of money. I mean,

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Speaker 1: they're getting vaccines, they're not getting they're not getting money,

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Speaker 1: but they you know, they and they already have existing

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Speaker 1: staffs and they can mobilize people to do these inoculations.

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Speaker 1: But that's not to say it's going to be an

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Speaker 1: easy task. And what is the status as we speak?

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Speaker 1: The virus is raging in India, to what degree is

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Speaker 1: it under control? And are there vaccinations in Africa? The

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Speaker 1: thing in India is really a mind blower because the

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Speaker 1: people thought Indian sort of had come through this. But

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Speaker 1: in Africa, Africa has so far gotten off a lot

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Speaker 1: easier than people thought they were. That's not to say

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Speaker 1: it hasn't been bad. In South Africa in particular, it

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Speaker 1: has been bad, but you know, they have a very

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Speaker 1: young population, uh and there's a lot of anybody's running

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Speaker 1: around from other infections people might have had, so they

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Speaker 1: have not had the death rates the hospitalization rates that

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Speaker 1: we've seen, say in America, of course no one's seen that,

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Speaker 1: but uh they are. You know, I think countries have

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Speaker 1: maybe twenty thousand vaccines done. That would be a high amount,

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Speaker 1: you know in a country like Ghana, now you see.

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Speaker 1: But but we've there's a big public relations efforts, so

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Speaker 1: to speak, to address this, and people are realizing that

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Speaker 1: it's on our own self interest to have this happen.

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Speaker 1: And now, like America, we have all the sexcess vaccines already.

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Speaker 1: I mean, anybody can get a vaccination we have. Canada

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Speaker 1: has four times as many vaccines as they have people.

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Speaker 1: These are they haven't all been delivered yet, mind you,

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Speaker 1: but that's what they have on order. And it's about

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Speaker 1: the same for the United States. I mean, we have,

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Speaker 1: you know, hundreds of millions of extra vaccines to go.

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Speaker 1: So at some point it wasn't really uh kosher to

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Speaker 1: be pleading for these vaccines to go to Africa. Before

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Speaker 1: we got our own population under control and vaccinated and

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Speaker 1: people felt comfortable. But we're at that point now, certainly

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Speaker 1: in the States. Since you're a king of marketers, we

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Speaker 1: have the issue in America where many people do not

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Speaker 1: want to get the vaccine. What can be done and

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Speaker 1: what what you might have done, you know, putting on

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Speaker 1: your hat of marketing not only the young people but

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Speaker 1: the public at large. Well, I mean, if you really

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Speaker 1: look where the and there's there's the anti vax people

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Speaker 1: that have sort of existed before, but you know, now

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Speaker 1: you see really the vaccine hesitant people are largely in

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Speaker 1: the Republican Party and they're largely evangelical. Those are the

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Speaker 1: two biggest groups. I mean, if someone like Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: came out and uh did p s A is along

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Speaker 1: the lines of what Elvis Presley did with polio back

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Speaker 1: in the fifties, that would be good to a lot

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Speaker 1: of these people. You can't really you know, you can't

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Speaker 1: really dissuade them with facts. Uh, there's this hardcore there's

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Speaker 1: probably never gonna get vaccinated, but there is this group

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Speaker 1: that can't be moved, and it's gonna take marketing and uh,

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Speaker 1: some kind of promotion. A doctor that I know in

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Speaker 1: Boston told me that when they were vaccinating people over

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Speaker 1: seventy they could get the six and they hit like

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Speaker 1: a dead end. So they started basically doing promotions. They said,

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Speaker 1: if you bring somebody with you to get vaccinated, if

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Speaker 1: you're over seventy, will vaccinate them too. It's sort of

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Speaker 1: like dex they'll be giving out toasters. But they were

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Speaker 1: able to drive it from like six up to seventy percent.

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Speaker 1: I don't know where they are now, but it shows

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Speaker 1: you things can be done. I mean a lot of

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Speaker 1: it is gonna be uh you know what. They need

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Speaker 1: people to They need people that they respect and like

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Speaker 1: like Donald Trump in this case, or leading evangelical to

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Speaker 1: say it's okay, don't worry about it. So if one

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Speaker 1: third year time is with the one campaign, what are

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Speaker 1: you doing with the rest of your time? Generally speaking,

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Speaker 1: obviously everything's crazy during COVID. Well, I've been spending a

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Speaker 1: lot of time, you know, these years since I work

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Speaker 1: with the Vice Media. Another thing that I've been working with,

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Speaker 1: I've work with this company called Mobi Media, which has

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Speaker 1: been based in Afghanistan, and I really went and I

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Speaker 1: used to live in Afghanistan before I ever had a

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Speaker 1: career at and MTV networks, and I kind of went

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Speaker 1: moved back there too, because they started these television networks

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Speaker 1: which are now, you know, really the leading ones in

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Speaker 1: the market. There was no television there under the Taliban.

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Speaker 1: So I'm spending a lot of time with them now

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Speaker 1: because of course we're looking at the Taliban maybe coming

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Speaker 1: back into Afghanistan, which is not going to be a

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Speaker 1: pretty picture. I work on that. I work on Red

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Speaker 1: UH and UH you know few other projects. I worked

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Speaker 1: with this company called Rain. They're a private equity company

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Speaker 1: and they do I've led investments like can Imagine Imagine

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Speaker 1: Entertainment with Brian Grazer and Ron Howard, uh Matt and

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Speaker 1: Trey you know, the South Park guys. You know. So

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Speaker 1: UH RAIN will take a position in them and then

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Speaker 1: I'll you know, help work with their teams on things.

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Speaker 1: So I bounced around. I used to travel a lot, Bob,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I travel like four months a year, but

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Speaker 1: this last year has been grounded. Like everybody, let's go

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Speaker 1: back to Afghanistan. The last time we discussed this, you

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Speaker 1: had been going to Afghanistan, but then things changed and

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Speaker 1: the person was actually running your operation, UH was avoiding

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Speaker 1: killers So what is the status today of the stations

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Speaker 1: and the people running them. Well, it's worse. Uh, we've

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Speaker 1: kinda you know, they've they've killed a lot of our journalists.

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Speaker 1: They've set off, you know, suicide bombers have attack some

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Speaker 1: of our commuter us is to take people and it's

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Speaker 1: not you know, one of the success stories in Afghanistan

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Speaker 1: has been independent media and the independent media there is

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Speaker 1: more independent than is rated, even so more so than

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Speaker 1: in countries like India or Turkey. The Taliban does not

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Speaker 1: like this. We have a substantial news organization and the

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Speaker 1: people are really consumed by news when they're living in

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Speaker 1: a war zone, which they've been doing for forty years now. Uh,

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Speaker 1: but they've now had to basically enclose themselves in their

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Speaker 1: own many green zone. So when uh, my friend Satmossini,

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Speaker 1: who's the CEO, brilliant character, when he will go in,

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Speaker 1: I mean he goes in unannounced and he goes rather

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Speaker 1: than live in his house, he goes that is heavily

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Speaker 1: fortified compound and people come to see him there and

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Speaker 1: he'll stay a week and then leave on an unannounced basis.

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Speaker 1: So it's really hard for people to go anywhere. There's

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Speaker 1: the Taliban of the start of this assassination program. As

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Speaker 1: a result of their negotiations during the Trump hear they

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Speaker 1: sort of said they would no longer do mass terror, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, things blowing up banks and public squares and

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Speaker 1: so forth. So they've sort of switched to just knocking

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Speaker 1: off Supreme Court justices, reporters, politicians, have people who work

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Speaker 1: at m G O s uh and uh. Anybody who

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Speaker 1: works at Too Low TV, which is the actual name

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Speaker 1: of it, there is you know, has to be very

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Speaker 1: careful and what is the reach of that TV network?

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Speaker 1: It reach us the whole country. There's right now there's

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Speaker 1: a there well when there was no television, now there's

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Speaker 1: a TV stations and loads of radio stations, and the

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Speaker 1: thing is and there's a lot of print publications. So

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Speaker 1: for the first time in its history, these Afghans are

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Speaker 1: connected to the outside world, which has made a big difference.

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Speaker 1: They're connected to each other. Layer on top of that,

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Speaker 1: the fact that where there was eleven thousand cell phones

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Speaker 1: when the Taliban ran Afghanistan, there's now thirty five million

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Speaker 1: of them, so people aren nected with each other. So

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Speaker 1: they've there's been like this twenty year period where this

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Speaker 1: war has been going on, but we've been working kind

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Speaker 1: of going over the head of the war for this insurgency,

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Speaker 1: and they've been they've really developed a lot of relative

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Speaker 1: freedoms that they've never had before. They've been connected to

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Speaker 1: each other, there's been a lot of social change. Women

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Speaker 1: are more liberated and empowered, and Uh, the sad thing

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Speaker 1: is right now, you've got about fifteen percent of the

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Speaker 1: population likes the Taliban. That's it. Of the people like

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Speaker 1: the government. The government's corrupt and predatory, and you know

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Speaker 1: figured that the Taliban is still like an armed religious

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Speaker 1: fanatic organization, still tied and intermarried with Al Qaeda. So

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Speaker 1: the there's my friend would tell me the best case

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Speaker 1: he sees in Afghanistan now is a civil war because

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Speaker 1: there's not going to be some kind of coalition government.

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Speaker 1: That seems extremely unlikely. And these characters have been living

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Speaker 1: up in the hills or in Pakistan for twenty years

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Speaker 1: and life has really changed. I mean, they're gonna be

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Speaker 1: like Rip van Winkle when they come back in the

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Speaker 1: cobble and they see people are on Facebook and they're tweeting,

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Speaker 1: and they all have phones and they're talking to each other.

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Speaker 1: So it's gonna be Uh, it's gonna be interesting to

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Speaker 1: see how this plays out. And I foresee it's not

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Speaker 1: gonna play out in a in a really uplifting fashion. Um,

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Speaker 1: should America ever have gone in and should they have

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Speaker 1: gotten now quicker? What do we know? Before the US

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Speaker 1: Russia was an Afghanistan and they ultimately pulled out without

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Speaker 1: any great achievements. Yeah, they they lost. They killed a

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Speaker 1: million Afghans this play six million others had this horrible ward.

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Speaker 1: You know they're not they're they're like, just just raise villages. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And before them, the British were throwing up Afghanistan. There's

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Speaker 1: a long history of this, the Graveyard of Empires, as

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Speaker 1: they like to say. We went in and vanquished the Taliban,

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Speaker 1: and we immediately set out and made threshold mistakes. That

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Speaker 1: kind of of uh kind of destined. It's kind of

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Speaker 1: was destined. What was gonna happen When it was over,

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Speaker 1: the Taliban wanted to negotiate a surrender to be part

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Speaker 1: of the process of the new government, and Donald Rumsfeld said, no,

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Speaker 1: we're not going to negotiate with you your terrorists. Now.

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Speaker 1: Mind you, when people have civil wars or things like

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Speaker 1: this is not uncommon. We've seen it in South African

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Speaker 1: other places. The opposing sides get together and work something out. Uh,

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Speaker 1: that didn't happen. So the Taliban was sort of shun

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Speaker 1: it off to Pakistan and uh, you know, resentful, and

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Speaker 1: Pakistan would fuel them. Uh. And then we we set

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Speaker 1: about putting in place. They centralized government for the country

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Speaker 1: in their new constitution, which they've never had before, which made,

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Speaker 1: of course corruption easier to do. We empower a lot

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Speaker 1: of old guys who actually they were so bad, these

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Speaker 1: warloades that they their behavior led to the Taliban in

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Speaker 1: the first place, and then we just dumped a lot

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Speaker 1: of money at it. You know, there's American hubris and

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Speaker 1: naivete and uh, we were like destined to fail. I

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Speaker 1: can understand why Biden wants to get out because I

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Speaker 1: don't see that things are going to change. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's like pushing a string there. It's just I don't

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Speaker 1: know what's gonna happen. Some miracle really needs to happen

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Speaker 1: for the Taliban to try and assimilate into what has

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Speaker 1: been this newer, more modern culture that's turned up at

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Speaker 1: least in urban Afghanistan. So you were in Afghanistans decades before.

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Speaker 1: And you said, this was before they had a lot

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Speaker 1: of technology, and you've been there. Now the average American

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Speaker 1: doesn't even have a passport. But what was the appeal

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Speaker 1: of Afghanistan for you? Well, I had I have been

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Speaker 1: working at the time. I had been I had quit

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Speaker 1: a job at an ad agency in New York. I

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Speaker 1: just couldn't take it anymore. And uh, they they were

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Speaker 1: gonna assign me to Sharman toilet paper. And I realized

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Speaker 1: that and I had been already been working on g

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Speaker 1: I Joe. Mind you, this was during the Vietnam War,

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Speaker 1: so I was just an alienated guy. And an old

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Speaker 1: girlfriend called me up from Paris and said, Hey, I

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Speaker 1: want to go across the Sahara Desert. I was on

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Speaker 1: a plane like a week and a half later, and

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Speaker 1: I met her. We did do that. We broke up

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Speaker 1: like a little we're a little bit Florida. How do

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Speaker 1: you go across the Sahara Desert in those days? I

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Speaker 1: went all the way down from Paris through Spain and

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Speaker 1: Morocco to the very southern point of Morocco where the

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Speaker 1: road stopped, and then you get into what was basically

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Speaker 1: the back of a Ford truck pickup truck, not a

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Speaker 1: pickup truck. It was like, you know, a dump truck

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Speaker 1: and you drive a hundred and fifty miles at the

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Speaker 1: border of what was then a place called the Spanish Sahara.

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Speaker 1: It was Spain's last colony and you had to camp

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Speaker 1: out for a few days. So they opened the border

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Speaker 1: and then you'd go in and then you'd uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: tool around the Sahara. And I I did that for

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Speaker 1: about a month and ended up we split up, and

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Speaker 1: I ended up continue to travel for a year and

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Speaker 1: I met somebody in Greece, this girl in Greece, and

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Speaker 1: she said, you know, you gotta go to India. That

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Speaker 1: was the Holy Grail. This is like nineteen seventy two, Bob.

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Speaker 1: So when I went to it, it was like the

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Speaker 1: day I went to Afghanistan. My life sort of changed

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Speaker 1: because I was having a great time and soaking it

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Speaker 1: all in. I mean it was hitchhiking around and riding

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Speaker 1: on the back of trucks. I was a kid basically.

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Speaker 1: But when I when I showed up at the Afghan

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Speaker 1: Iran border, I went through Iran, Uh, it was like

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Speaker 1: I was in another world and a whole other planet

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Speaker 1: that the guy who was an immigration stamping passports he

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Speaker 1: was wearing his jacket was there was a jacket from

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Speaker 1: the high school band at the Akron High School. You know. So,

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Speaker 1: and what's often lost with people because they think Afghanistan's

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Speaker 1: just a place of continual war and terrorists. The Afghans

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Speaker 1: are actually hilarious and people go there. One of the

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Speaker 1: reasons we probably stayed this longest because at the top

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Speaker 1: military levels they all you get entranced then really engaged

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Speaker 1: with the Afghans. They're wonderful people. They got this great

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Speaker 1: soul and uh I fell for that and about that.

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Speaker 1: This was the most exotic place I'd been and I

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Speaker 1: wanted to try and figure out a way to support

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Speaker 1: myself and live there. And I basically I started a

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Speaker 1: company and I lived there for eight years there in India,

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Speaker 1: where I also started another company. Does a whole other,

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Speaker 1: a whole other lifetime, ago, a whole other career. It

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Speaker 1: was those are my defining great years. I love them. Okay,

365
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Speaker 1: what'd your parents say when you jettison the path and

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Speaker 1: went off across the god? You know, they were already

367
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Speaker 1: annoyed because uh I had gotten out of college. I

368
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Speaker 1: was gonna get drafted. I went to graduate school, which

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Speaker 1: was still possible. I wanted to get Someone said I said,

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Speaker 1: I got to get drafted, and said, we gotta go

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Speaker 1: to graduate school. Since well, I don't want to be

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Speaker 1: a doctor or a dentist or a lawyer. Sai, why

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Speaker 1: don't you go to business school? I was so out

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Speaker 1: of it, Bob, I didn't know there was such a thing,

375
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Speaker 1: you know, get an m b A. So I signed up,

376
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Speaker 1: went to n y U. And that's sort of when

377
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Speaker 1: I got out of there, I decided, Uh, I had

378
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Speaker 1: gotten out of the draft. How'd you get out of

379
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Speaker 1: the draft? Well? In then, at the end of my

380
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Speaker 1: first year of a two year program, they said, okay,

381
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Speaker 1: he's graduate school. Deferments are over. I'm back in the

382
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Speaker 1: draft pool. I said, I gotta, I gotta, I gotta.

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Speaker 1: I can't do that. So I I found a guy.

384
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Speaker 1: I knew a guy. The only thing that I got

385
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Speaker 1: in the Navy Reserve, which had it was one year

386
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Speaker 1: of meetings and then you had to go an active

387
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Speaker 1: duty for two years. And I had been working in

388
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Speaker 1: Lake George with this guy who ran a bar, but

389
00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:31,119
Speaker 1: he also ran a big steamship which used to be.

390
00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:33,760
Speaker 1: You know, in World War two they had cut it

391
00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:36,600
Speaker 1: up and brought it up to Lake George, and he

392
00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:38,560
Speaker 1: was in the Naval Reserve and he was able to

393
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Speaker 1: get me in. I mean, think about that. And then

394
00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:42,760
Speaker 1: I once I got in, I it was determined I

395
00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:45,600
Speaker 1: had some medical problems, so I gotta I got at

396
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Speaker 1: the ferment. And then just when I graduated, my parents said,

397
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Speaker 1: he's getting on the conveyor belt. He's gonna get a

398
00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:52,880
Speaker 1: grown up job. I split for a year. I went

399
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Speaker 1: to ask him and uh the Virgin Islands. And then,

400
00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:58,680
Speaker 1: you know, they were not happy about that. But then

401
00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:00,720
Speaker 1: I got a job at ben in ball Holes, which

402
00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:04,600
Speaker 1: they were elated about. And that lasted about two years,

403
00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:06,800
Speaker 1: and uh, I was just alien it. And then I

404
00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:10,239
Speaker 1: quit again. I took five thousand dollars and left, and

405
00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:13,080
Speaker 1: they were just sort of slack jawed. But you know,

406
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Speaker 1: what can they do. I was, you know, twenty two

407
00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:19,240
Speaker 1: or something like that, twenty three. What did your father

408
00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:22,080
Speaker 1: do for a living? Your mother? He was, Uh. I

409
00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:25,040
Speaker 1: grew up in in Fairfield County, not far from you.

410
00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:27,720
Speaker 1: I was from Rowait in Connecticut, of course, just a

411
00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:31,520
Speaker 1: little down the line. And my father, actually he was

412
00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:34,439
Speaker 1: in one of the mad Men guys. He worked in uh,

413
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Speaker 1: in public relations for a paper bag company called Union Bag,

414
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Speaker 1: which meant all my life I got free lunch bags.

415
00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:44,000
Speaker 1: You know, I didn't have to recycle him like my

416
00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:48,800
Speaker 1: fellow students did. So he you know, and he had

417
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:50,440
Speaker 1: a lot of friends that are awaiting who were sort

418
00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:53,760
Speaker 1: of in that world of advertising public relations, and they

419
00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:56,520
Speaker 1: were what I saw. There was a window of what

420
00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:58,879
Speaker 1: I could. I I saw that was possible to be

421
00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:01,199
Speaker 1: in business and actually have a good time and do

422
00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:04,399
Speaker 1: something like these people were creative. I wanted to always

423
00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:07,840
Speaker 1: be around creative people. So anyway, they took it and

424
00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:09,639
Speaker 1: stride when I left, and then they became proud of

425
00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:12,080
Speaker 1: me because my company became very successful. I had no

426
00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:15,480
Speaker 1: idea what I was doing, but we build warehouses and showrooms,

427
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:20,080
Speaker 1: and then of course I got wiped out and lost everything. Okay,

428
00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:21,840
Speaker 1: let's go back to the beating for a second. How

429
00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:24,600
Speaker 1: many kids in the family. There was me and my brother.

430
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:27,359
Speaker 1: I'm a younger brother, right And what's he up to

431
00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:29,840
Speaker 1: right now? I mean I met up a couple of times.

432
00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:33,280
Speaker 1: For the people who don't know, uh, he's started retired.

433
00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:36,679
Speaker 1: You know, he was just Libby. He was he had

434
00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:39,280
Speaker 1: had it with the pandemic, so he got vaccinated and

435
00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:42,800
Speaker 1: went to beck Way, which is an island in the Grenadines. St.

436
00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:46,000
Speaker 1: Vincent and the Grenadines is one of the last island

437
00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:48,800
Speaker 1: nations in the Caribbean. It sounds like a rock band.

438
00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:51,760
Speaker 1: And he was the island of beck Way, and he

439
00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:53,520
Speaker 1: had rented a place for three months and he was

440
00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:55,639
Speaker 1: enjoying it there. He likes living on islands. But then

441
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:59,359
Speaker 1: they had just had this volcano in St. Vincent. So

442
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:01,520
Speaker 1: he got a vacuated by the American government and a

443
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:04,440
Speaker 1: cruise liner that took him to Saint Martin. So he's

444
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:06,960
Speaker 1: back in New York now a little up perturb, I said, Bill,

445
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:09,840
Speaker 1: only you could get, you know, run from a pandemic

446
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:13,480
Speaker 1: and then you have to get evacuated because of a volcano. Okay,

447
00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:16,840
Speaker 1: did you go to public school or prep school? I

448
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:21,959
Speaker 1: went to a combination. I went to public schools in

449
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:25,400
Speaker 1: Connecticut until my father wanted me to have a good

450
00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:28,800
Speaker 1: Catholic education. See, so he said, sent me to Fairfield Prep.

451
00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:31,919
Speaker 1: Right down the street. I mean literally right down the

452
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,880
Speaker 1: street pass if we only knew, you know, that's where

453
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:38,080
Speaker 1: I saw my first concert Ray Charles at Fairfield University.

454
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:42,600
Speaker 1: I saw the Beach Boys at Fearfield University. Enough you

455
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:45,359
Speaker 1: were there and there was another concert with the Young Rascals.

456
00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:47,960
Speaker 1: This was in the sixties. I think you might have

457
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:50,800
Speaker 1: been in college at that point. Yeah. Well, after two

458
00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:54,479
Speaker 1: years of that, and I wasn't that happy because you know,

459
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:56,400
Speaker 1: I have it's an hour and a half up there

460
00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:58,880
Speaker 1: and back, and you know, all my friends I didn't

461
00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:01,560
Speaker 1: really have. I kind of was contact with my local friends.

462
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:03,719
Speaker 1: And my father said, I'll make you deal. I'll let

463
00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:06,959
Speaker 1: you transfer to the local high school and finish here

464
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:08,879
Speaker 1: because I can see you wanted to play hockey, you

465
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,639
Speaker 1: wanted to do this, meet some girls, and you know,

466
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:13,920
Speaker 1: I want to be happy, but we gotta make a deal.

467
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:16,040
Speaker 1: If I do this, you have to commit to me

468
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:20,040
Speaker 1: that you go to a Catholic college. Wow. So I

469
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:22,160
Speaker 1: had to. I took the deal that was on the table. Bob,

470
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:25,000
Speaker 1: I said, I'll deal with that other one later, you know.

471
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:28,879
Speaker 1: So he said, uh, that's that's what he said. So

472
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:32,720
Speaker 1: when it came time to apply to college, my choices

473
00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:34,320
Speaker 1: were a lot more limited than the other kids that

474
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,200
Speaker 1: were in school with and I I, you know, I

475
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:39,760
Speaker 1: ended up going to a small college in Vermont, which

476
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:41,439
Speaker 1: I never even visited. At that point in my life,

477
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:43,760
Speaker 1: I've only been in two states, New York and Connecticut,

478
00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:49,080
Speaker 1: so you know, so I went to a combination and

479
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:52,560
Speaker 1: so you went to St. Michael's in Vermont. There were

480
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:57,840
Speaker 1: no women there, right exactly, but they had a important point,

481
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,840
Speaker 1: a recurring theme with these ethnic schools. But there was

482
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 1: a There was a a school called Trinity College or

483
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:07,920
Speaker 1: sort of the sister college in Burlington, right across the river.

484
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:10,879
Speaker 1: But there were a lot of other colleges. There was

485
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:13,240
Speaker 1: a lot of uh, there was sort of a college

486
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:15,320
Speaker 1: town Burlington. It was a really cool town to go

487
00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:17,720
Speaker 1: to school. And if you weren't in St. Michael's, but

488
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:26,720
Speaker 1: you could meet girls. I made a point of that. Okay,

489
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:30,160
Speaker 1: growing up, were you like the leader of the group?

490
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:33,320
Speaker 1: Were you popular? And then when you get to college,

491
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:36,760
Speaker 1: were you, you know, the guy who was hanging with

492
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:39,600
Speaker 1: everybody or you were more independent? What kind of kid

493
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:42,480
Speaker 1: were you like growing up? I was independent. I mean

494
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,400
Speaker 1: I really wasn't in any big click or anything like that.

495
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:47,840
Speaker 1: But I was well liked and I got along. I

496
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:49,640
Speaker 1: got a well, I I got I can get along

497
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:51,639
Speaker 1: with anybody, so I would get along with everybody. Was

498
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:54,119
Speaker 1: just a big bruiser guy, a bully. I could somehow

499
00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:57,399
Speaker 1: befriend him. And when I went to college, like I

500
00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 1: made a fortune. I was. I took a cut and pay.

501
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:03,000
Speaker 1: When I graduated, I was. I had all kinds of

502
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:06,920
Speaker 1: jobs from dishwasher to where because I had had to

503
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:08,600
Speaker 1: kind of work my way through college. But but I

504
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:12,240
Speaker 1: got a little money in the system. So uh, but

505
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:14,639
Speaker 1: there I was. Most of the other kids in that

506
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:18,119
Speaker 1: school were from Upper New England. There was only a

507
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:21,479
Speaker 1: few of us from the Tri City area who we

508
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:23,600
Speaker 1: thought we were hit but we were nothing. You know.

509
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 1: All I really knew was like listening to New York

510
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:28,720
Speaker 1: City radio growing up in terms of you know, never

511
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:30,320
Speaker 1: really went into the city much. So I went to

512
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:35,600
Speaker 1: graduate school. Okay, you were an Aspen We never discussed this.

513
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:37,720
Speaker 1: You were a big skier. You mean, that's the reason

514
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 1: to go to Aspen, especially back then, although Aspen was different.

515
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:45,200
Speaker 1: That was before all the chain stores were there. Oh yeah,

516
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:47,879
Speaker 1: like people hadn't even heard of Aspen in nineteen seventy.

517
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:52,000
Speaker 1: But what have you know. Sometimes you can remember something

518
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:55,360
Speaker 1: with total clarity, and I can remember at the beginning

519
00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:57,920
Speaker 1: of my sophomore year in college, I was at a

520
00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:00,399
Speaker 1: part I went before school started. I was at the

521
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:04,320
Speaker 1: University of Ramondic of fraternity and I had made friends

522
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:07,280
Speaker 1: there too. And then this guy I knew kind of

523
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,800
Speaker 1: this is in the afternoon, he's on a Bonneville motorcycle.

524
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:13,040
Speaker 1: He kind of comes through and he I said, Hey, Tom,

525
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:15,080
Speaker 1: how are you doing? This is his name is Tom too.

526
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:16,879
Speaker 1: He says, Oh, Man, I just had the greatest summer.

527
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:19,640
Speaker 1: I was down in this place, Lake George. It's while

528
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:21,720
Speaker 1: down there. You know, there's all these girls. You can

529
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:24,000
Speaker 1: make a lot of money. It's a beautiful place, and

530
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:26,679
Speaker 1: you know you're crazy to go home and for the summertime.

531
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 1: I decided right then and there, this is what I'm

532
00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 1: gonna do. I'm gonna finally be free, away from my parents,

533
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:35,680
Speaker 1: away from the rules of college. So I went there.

534
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:38,360
Speaker 1: And when I was there, like the cool gang in

535
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:41,000
Speaker 1: that town where all these guys from Aspen they would

536
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 1: they would like be on the circuit. They would work

537
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 1: in Lake George, they would work in ask when they

538
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:48,360
Speaker 1: go to the Caribbean, then run pot. They ran bars.

539
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:51,720
Speaker 1: But they were like bohemians. My first real encounter with

540
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:53,920
Speaker 1: and they there, they theyre they didn't even think of

541
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 1: having a career. They were, but they struck a nerve

542
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:00,480
Speaker 1: with me, and I saw like a window for me

543
00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:03,040
Speaker 1: to have a more interesting life. But they always said, hey, man,

544
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:05,959
Speaker 1: come out and finsess this in a Aspen. So as

545
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:07,600
Speaker 1: soon as I got out of school, I bought a

546
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 1: car for like a hundred bucks and drove to Aspen

547
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 1: and showed up at the It was in the Aspen

548
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 1: and it was now the rich Carlton stands in its place. Yeah,

549
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:20,440
Speaker 1: So I went in. I say where's Gary? And Gary

550
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 1: comes out and I said. He says, Tom, what are

551
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:25,320
Speaker 1: you doing here? I said, well, this was a pilgrimage

552
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:27,280
Speaker 1: for me. I wanted to check it out. You got anything,

553
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:29,760
Speaker 1: you got any nice job for a for a hard

554
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 1: working man. He says, everyone filled up. You shouldn't let

555
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,600
Speaker 1: me know, but you could be a dishwasher. And this

556
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,200
Speaker 1: was like the nitty Gritty dirt band would play there

557
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:41,320
Speaker 1: and Steve Martin and it was. It was a hopping place,

558
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:43,560
Speaker 1: but I knew all the guys who kind of ran it. Well.

559
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 1: I worked my way up and I spent uh. Then

560
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 1: he sends me to go get a room at the

561
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:52,240
Speaker 1: Independence Lodge, which is at the base of Ajax. It's

562
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:54,800
Speaker 1: now a Ralph the Ren store, and they gave me

563
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:57,040
Speaker 1: a room with no window. And then the guy says

564
00:29:57,080 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 1: to me, you're not gonna need a window if you're

565
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:01,720
Speaker 1: working at the s spen in. I go, what is that?

566
00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:04,520
Speaker 1: He says, because those guys are wild. You'll be They'll

567
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:06,760
Speaker 1: have you all night at some parties in Red Mountain

568
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 1: and you'll be thanking me that the sun's not waking

569
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 1: you up. You can sleep all day. So that turned

570
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:15,560
Speaker 1: out to be, you know, that turned out to pretty

571
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:17,960
Speaker 1: much be the case. But I I was there. I

572
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 1: skied a few times, but I had to rent all

573
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:22,560
Speaker 1: my equipment, so it was really uh, you know, I

574
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 1: didn't have my own stuff. Wasn't a great skier, but

575
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 1: it was. I really fell in love with the town.

576
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:28,920
Speaker 1: But I realized after three months I had to get

577
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:31,120
Speaker 1: out of there. I go crazy. That was sort of

578
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:33,640
Speaker 1: my brief psychedelic period. There was a lot of bad

579
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 1: things going on and Aspen in those days. I mean

580
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:38,280
Speaker 1: it was Hunter Thompson had just run for it was

581
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 1: about to run for sheriff, but he had started that

582
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 1: freak party thing which you probably knew all about. They

583
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 1: were gonna fight the developers, the greedhogs, who ultimately turned

584
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:53,520
Speaker 1: Aspen into what it is today. Okay, so you leave Aspen,

585
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 1: and then the next stop is I went through San

586
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 1: Francisco and down do Big Sir Her and they went

587
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:03,600
Speaker 1: to uh San Diego. Had a friend of mine who

588
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:06,240
Speaker 1: was in the Navy. He lived in Mission Beach, hung

589
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:08,680
Speaker 1: out there a while. Then I I I tried to

590
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 1: dry I finally I couldn't drive my car in Mexico,

591
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 1: so I sold it in, flew to Port of the

592
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,080
Speaker 1: Art and went to San Blass. I was there for

593
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:18,400
Speaker 1: not long, and then her friend called me. I was says, hey,

594
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:21,560
Speaker 1: I'm in the I'm in the Virgin Islands, and you

595
00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:23,640
Speaker 1: could probably get a job here at Tendon Bar. So

596
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:25,960
Speaker 1: I went there and spent three months in the Virgin

597
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 1: Islands doing that. That was a whole other adventure. And

598
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 1: then from there I went to Martha's Vineyard and got

599
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 1: a job in the lamp post. And this was when

600
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,440
Speaker 1: I met Tom Rush, who you just had on and

601
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,560
Speaker 1: I met Jill Lumpkin who we talked about on your podcast,

602
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:44,640
Speaker 1: who was his girlfriend on the Circle Game, who I

603
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 1: hired as a designer to work for me at my company,

604
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:51,120
Speaker 1: Hindu Kush. She used to be a bar to waitress

605
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 1: at max Is in the city and she's living in

606
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:56,280
Speaker 1: Indian now. I I had, I had, I said. I

607
00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 1: sent her a copy of the link to your podcast.

608
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 1: I said, well, Tom's really talk talking about you so small,

609
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 1: small world. Why did your business in Afghanistan in India crash? Well?

610
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:11,840
Speaker 1: As good as it was and we were, we were

611
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:15,400
Speaker 1: making not crappy clothes, but really kind of stylish things. Uh.

612
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:19,280
Speaker 1: You know, the Afghanistan they had a communist coup. You know,

613
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 1: generally not good for business. I mean, we were going around.

614
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:25,320
Speaker 1: It was a big surprise to everybody in town, including

615
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 1: pretty much the Soviets, because these guys weren't ready for

616
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 1: prime time. And that was in April seventy eight. So

617
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:33,720
Speaker 1: I kind of bailed. I have been there for a

618
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 1: coup in seventy three when they took out the king,

619
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:40,360
Speaker 1: but that was like there's one oligarch to another. This

620
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,520
Speaker 1: was the These were communists and they were not big

621
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 1: on doing business. So I kind of gathered some stuff

622
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 1: together and I said, let's, uh, let's go through the

623
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:52,160
Speaker 1: Cobra Pass. And stay in pish hour and this thing

624
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:56,560
Speaker 1: blows over, and uh with Jill and whatnot, and it

625
00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 1: never it still hasn't blown over, Bob. They've been fighting

626
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:02,760
Speaker 1: for forty three years. But then the Soviets invaded, god worse.

627
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:04,960
Speaker 1: So I had a business in India at a house

628
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:09,640
Speaker 1: in Delhi. I doubled down on that. But then like

629
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:13,040
Speaker 1: six months later, Jimmy Carter, under pressure from the domestic

630
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:16,960
Speaker 1: uh you know, apparel people put a quota and an

631
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:21,440
Speaker 1: embargo on close from India and you had to get

632
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 1: quota from the Indian government. Since I was one of

633
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:26,400
Speaker 1: the only kind of Caucasians doing this and didn't have

634
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:30,240
Speaker 1: the government connectors, I didn't get anything. So I went

635
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:34,720
Speaker 1: out of business, and uh I I came back with

636
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 1: my tail between my legs, trying to get a job.

637
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:40,000
Speaker 1: And that's where when I ended up at MTV. Okay,

638
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:42,640
Speaker 1: since you said you'd only been to New York in Connecticut,

639
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:46,160
Speaker 1: where did all this wanderlusts come from? I think it

640
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:48,640
Speaker 1: was just pan up. You know. My dad was in

641
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:51,960
Speaker 1: the Navy in the Pacific War, and he used to

642
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 1: drive those boats that went up on the Pacific Islands.

643
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 1: The door would come down Statar, Bryan Ryan, and you

644
00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:59,000
Speaker 1: know of the guys get killed in Eily, he had

645
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 1: they called it shell shop then. But he went from

646
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:04,840
Speaker 1: a guy in my side like a hundred and ninety

647
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 1: pounds to just pounds. And he spent the rest of

648
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:09,320
Speaker 1: the war like a year and a half in Hawaii,

649
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:12,319
Speaker 1: and he was he just never wanted He never said

650
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 1: a word to me about the war. I can never

651
00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:16,840
Speaker 1: get him to watch like Victory at Sea or anything

652
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:20,240
Speaker 1: like that. And uh, he never wanted to go anywhere.

653
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:22,040
Speaker 1: The only trip we ever took as a family was

654
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:26,920
Speaker 1: a day trip to the Mystic Seaport. And uh So

655
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:30,000
Speaker 1: when I went to Vermont to college, I you know,

656
00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:31,759
Speaker 1: I just got the jones I can do this. I

657
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:35,319
Speaker 1: just felt exhilarated to travel. And then I would hear

658
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:37,800
Speaker 1: all these stories like from these guys about Aspen in

659
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:41,440
Speaker 1: other places in the Caribbean, and it seemed so romantic

660
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:43,560
Speaker 1: to me, and I said, I want to do this.

661
00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 1: And meanwhile I kind of beefed up my you know,

662
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:49,560
Speaker 1: my reading with the beats and all of that. And

663
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:54,280
Speaker 1: you know, I just was into expanding experiences I might encounter.

664
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:56,880
Speaker 1: And uh, I gotta say this, all the traveling that

665
00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 1: I've done has been really the defining thing in my life.

666
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:03,720
Speaker 1: I mean in terms of you know, confidence and comfort

667
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:07,080
Speaker 1: about myself and uh, empathy for other people. I mean

668
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:10,480
Speaker 1: you said in the beginning less than half of Americans

669
00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:14,040
Speaker 1: have passports. So true, and that's that's really sort of

670
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:16,359
Speaker 1: central to our problem as a nation. I think. You know,

671
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:19,320
Speaker 1: so you never have that ability to look at America

672
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:23,120
Speaker 1: through someone else's prism. But anyway I had. I just

673
00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:26,759
Speaker 1: love to travel, Okay. You know it's amazing because when

674
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:29,239
Speaker 1: you go to other countries, you're like UK. You know,

675
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:31,440
Speaker 1: it's a nation of travelers, will go to go. Oh,

676
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:33,560
Speaker 1: We'll go, you know, things that people wouldn't even think

677
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 1: of in America. But were you so successful because of

678
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:41,880
Speaker 1: what you learned in business school? Well, I had an

679
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:44,759
Speaker 1: innate drive and ability to put things together and do it.

680
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:48,439
Speaker 1: What I did learn in business school is I really

681
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,800
Speaker 1: straightened out. I mean I really applied myself in business.

682
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:54,480
Speaker 1: I mean on my studies. I kind of coasted through

683
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:57,160
Speaker 1: high school like hosted through college. I still made like

684
00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:00,520
Speaker 1: the honor roll when I got to when I got

685
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:02,960
Speaker 1: to business school, I just got so turned on. I

686
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 1: got I was number one of my class. I graduated

687
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:07,120
Speaker 1: number one of my class. I had this one professor,

688
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:11,080
Speaker 1: that's guy named Peter Drucker, who legendary. He was a

689
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:13,600
Speaker 1: legend and he was you know, he'd hold these classes

690
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:16,759
Speaker 1: and they were all about innovation and change. And I

691
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:18,880
Speaker 1: got someone that I said, there's a window for me.

692
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:22,080
Speaker 1: This is a this is you know, innovation and change

693
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:25,000
Speaker 1: is what kind of drives America had. And I realized

694
00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:27,320
Speaker 1: if I could work on things that were new and interesting,

695
00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:30,799
Speaker 1: put things together in an interesting way, that's a creative way,

696
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:34,239
Speaker 1: I could be a business person. So I was able

697
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:36,239
Speaker 1: to apply some of the things I learned there. But

698
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:38,040
Speaker 1: my success there I had no idea. What I was

699
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 1: doing was just done through hustle. I mean, I knew

700
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:43,279
Speaker 1: when I was working there, Bob, nothing that I would

701
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:45,320
Speaker 1: ever do in my life would be more complicated or

702
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:47,799
Speaker 1: difficult than that, And that's been the case. I mean,

703
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:50,720
Speaker 1: you know, you had the bride people, nothing was delivered

704
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:54,440
Speaker 1: on times, stuff was done wrong. You know, there was

705
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:59,719
Speaker 1: you know, this was really premass tourism. These places were

706
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:02,760
Speaker 1: the uh you know, I think India had like seventy

707
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:05,400
Speaker 1: thousand tourists a year or something at that point. So

708
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:08,040
Speaker 1: you really had to hustle. So it was through determination,

709
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:13,719
Speaker 1: which I guess was in bred in me. Okay, and

710
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:16,040
Speaker 1: where have you not been that you want to go.

711
00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:20,160
Speaker 1: I haven't been to New Zealand. Love to go there.

712
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:24,760
Speaker 1: I've been in Westralia, but only once. I'm I'm surprised,

713
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:28,440
Speaker 1: since you know it's a long way down there. I'll

714
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:30,000
Speaker 1: believe me. I know if I've been a few times,

715
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:33,520
Speaker 1: I know it's I'd love to go to way Antarctica,

716
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:36,799
Speaker 1: you know now I sent away The other day. I

717
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:39,360
Speaker 1: was browsing through Amazon. I said, Lonely Planet has a

718
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:41,719
Speaker 1: book on Antarctica. I said, well, I want to get that.

719
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:46,600
Speaker 1: Find out what's the cool hotel there. So I'm studying

720
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:49,400
Speaker 1: up on Antarctica. I haven't been to uh. You know,

721
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:53,799
Speaker 1: I've been to almost every country in Asia. I've been

722
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:57,640
Speaker 1: to half of the fifty countries in Africa. There's still

723
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:02,279
Speaker 1: I want to go to the Central African Republic Um.

724
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:05,239
Speaker 1: You know, the northern part of Japan. I don't know

725
00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:07,000
Speaker 1: if you've been to Hokkaido Island, the one in the

726
00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:09,359
Speaker 1: north where Sapporo is. They make that good beer up

727
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:11,480
Speaker 1: there and they do all that skiing. That's supposed to

728
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:13,360
Speaker 1: be amazing. That was where I was going to go

729
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 1: if it wasn't for the pandemic. That was my I

730
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:17,319
Speaker 1: always like having a trip in the back of my

731
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:19,719
Speaker 1: head that I can, you know, fantasize about. That's gonna

732
00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:23,960
Speaker 1: be coming up sometime over the horizon. So if you

733
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:27,880
Speaker 1: told someone who really hadn't been anywhere two countries to

734
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 1: go to, what would you say? You Well, depend I

735
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:36,440
Speaker 1: guess on a type of person, but let's put the

736
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:39,520
Speaker 1: pandemic inside. I would always put India on top of

737
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:41,440
Speaker 1: the list. It's the greatest show on Earth. I mean,

738
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:47,040
Speaker 1: anything could happen any that's just a mind blower no

739
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:51,640
Speaker 1: matter what. Uh India would be there. Greece, I mean,

740
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:53,439
Speaker 1: I've been going to Greece. I've been renting a house

741
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:55,920
Speaker 1: in Greece in the summers, is on a little island

742
00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:59,759
Speaker 1: where it's a lot less expensive than the Hampton's and

743
00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:02,520
Speaker 1: Greece that the people are wonderful, the light is great.

744
00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:05,440
Speaker 1: Greecent Italy pretty cool in Europe, and in in in

745
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:11,160
Speaker 1: uh Africa, Senegal, you know, great, great music scene. And

746
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:13,680
Speaker 1: Ethiopia is the other one who has a whole different

747
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:17,440
Speaker 1: music scene. I'm very much into you know, African music,

748
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:19,640
Speaker 1: and you know it's just a daily occurrence going to

749
00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:23,840
Speaker 1: clubs there and meeting and seeing musicians. And for the

750
00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:29,480
Speaker 1: American how safe is it in Africa? Say, oh, it's

751
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:33,080
Speaker 1: safe and very safe. I would assume in all your

752
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:35,520
Speaker 1: travels though around the world, you've had a couple of

753
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:40,120
Speaker 1: scary experiences. Yes, yes, I have, and I had the

754
00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:44,680
Speaker 1: worst one was in Africa. Actually I went to uh

755
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:47,319
Speaker 1: this thing called the festival in the desert and north

756
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:49,279
Speaker 1: the Timbuck too. I was once again back in the

757
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:53,640
Speaker 1: Sahara I went. I I assembled a group to go.

758
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:55,360
Speaker 1: Is that they've been doing this thing for a bunch

759
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:58,879
Speaker 1: of years. And I got Chris Blackwell to go and

760
00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:02,360
Speaker 1: Jimmy Buffett to go because number one, he loves to travel,

761
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:05,400
Speaker 1: but he also had a jet. So we flew to

762
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:09,719
Speaker 1: tim Buck two and we hired some guides and you

763
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:11,680
Speaker 1: better have to drive like six eight hours in the

764
00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:13,560
Speaker 1: desert to get there. And the look. We had a

765
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:17,040
Speaker 1: couple of people who came with us from from Bombaco

766
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 1: to Capital. But there was this guy from tim Buck

767
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:23,960
Speaker 1: two who was gonna steer us in the wrong direction

768
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:28,879
Speaker 1: and have us kidnapped, which happens frequently there by people

769
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:30,759
Speaker 1: who ended up being in al Qaeda, who had just

770
00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:34,000
Speaker 1: killed some German tourists. Now we didn't know this at

771
00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:36,080
Speaker 1: the time, but after about four or five hours, we're

772
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:37,879
Speaker 1: going to go, where the hell are we? We were

773
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:40,279
Speaker 1: gonna get there, and then they jammed the brakes on.

774
00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:43,400
Speaker 1: We had like a little caravan going through, just blowing on,

775
00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 1: you know, just going over these sand dunes, and uh,

776
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:48,359
Speaker 1: they get out and this guy pulls out a gun

777
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:51,160
Speaker 1: to this local local guy's head. He's like he's gonna

778
00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:53,879
Speaker 1: kill him. He says, you're you're cheating on me, You're

779
00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:56,279
Speaker 1: taking us in the wrong place. So they we we

780
00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:58,600
Speaker 1: we left him in the desert and turned around and

781
00:40:58,640 --> 00:40:59,799
Speaker 1: head of the other way and made it to the

782
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:02,960
Speaker 1: fast stable. But I'm saying, oh, man, I just would

783
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:05,719
Speaker 1: imagine every day we were these people that they kidnapped,

784
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:08,040
Speaker 1: they were taking to Mauritania. They keep you like for

785
00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 1: a year or two, you know. I just imagine waking

786
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:14,440
Speaker 1: up every day and Chris enemy you and your fucking ideas,

787
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:17,960
Speaker 1: you know, your big ideas. So that was that was scary.

788
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:22,480
Speaker 1: But I didn't know how scary it was actually until afterwards. Okay,

789
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:26,440
Speaker 1: let's go back to Vice. Vice was a media in

790
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:29,680
Speaker 1: stock Darling and then it all kind of blew up

791
00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 1: in Shane Smith was a bad actor. You brought in

792
00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:36,480
Speaker 1: a new ceo. What what's the status of Vice today?

793
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:39,480
Speaker 1: You know, it took a few hits. It was I

794
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:42,799
Speaker 1: loved the Vice guys and originally, you know, I met

795
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:45,480
Speaker 1: them when I was a CEO of I when I

796
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:48,319
Speaker 1: was CEO of viacom and and and did a deal

797
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:51,720
Speaker 1: with them. They had a vision, they had a voice.

798
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:53,720
Speaker 1: They were from the streets. They were running up business

799
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:56,920
Speaker 1: on borrowed furniture. So I really like these guys. They

800
00:41:56,920 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 1: could make they were ready for YouTube was breaking and

801
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:01,400
Speaker 1: they were gonna be able to do video at a cost.

802
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:03,960
Speaker 1: And they really had a good ear for eye for

803
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:06,160
Speaker 1: stories and uh an ear for stories and an eye

804
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:07,959
Speaker 1: for making them good. And then you know, they kinda

805
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:11,160
Speaker 1: we got a little Huber's in there. They took some

806
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:14,799
Speaker 1: meat too, bumps. And then we saw you know, which

807
00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:17,759
Speaker 1: decimated sort of the upper ranks if you will, of

808
00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:21,359
Speaker 1: some colorful characters. And that was a big hit. And

809
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:24,440
Speaker 1: then we had the whole thing. If you're a publisher,

810
00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:28,360
Speaker 1: you know this in UH online where Google and Facebook

811
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:31,360
Speaker 1: are taking eighty to nine of all the advertising revenue,

812
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:34,520
Speaker 1: taking a lot of companies and putting them out of business,

813
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:36,800
Speaker 1: a lot of people doing good work. They just couldn't

814
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:39,600
Speaker 1: have a business model that worked, so we had to

815
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:42,160
Speaker 1: kind of dig ourselves out of the hole. Now. Oddly enough,

816
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:44,960
Speaker 1: coincidentally and I was on a board meeting today and uh,

817
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:47,600
Speaker 1: you know, we were profitable last year they recast. Uh

818
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:50,080
Speaker 1: we had a hot run with HBO that left. Now

819
00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:53,640
Speaker 1: we've got the news operation on showtime and we also

820
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 1: have a sizeable presence online. But their engagement with people

821
00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:00,960
Speaker 1: is up thirty. They're profitable. They're sort of they're they're

822
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:03,560
Speaker 1: they're back. I mean you may not know it, but uh,

823
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:08,680
Speaker 1: you know they they they ran really hot and then

824
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:12,799
Speaker 1: they cooled down. And Nancy Dubuke, who's the CEO there

825
00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:15,160
Speaker 1: now very talented as brought in pretty much a whole

826
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:18,200
Speaker 1: new crew. And of course they've had the work remotely

827
00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:20,520
Speaker 1: all this year, but they've made they've made good progress.

828
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:24,399
Speaker 1: It was it was an encouraging call. Okay, let's talk

829
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:29,440
Speaker 1: about the landscape, first, the news landscape, then the media landscape.

830
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:32,319
Speaker 1: What's going to happen in the news landscape on some level,

831
00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:36,240
Speaker 1: we have consolidation in newspapers such that there's the Big

832
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:38,759
Speaker 1: three and you know, not really everybody else. When it

833
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:42,439
Speaker 1: comes to network news, that is dying, and cable news

834
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:45,319
Speaker 1: doesn't reach that many people. You know, for a long time,

835
00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:47,279
Speaker 1: it looked like Vice was going to be the alternative.

836
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:51,600
Speaker 1: How do you see it playing out? Well, you know,

837
00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:54,520
Speaker 1: all the guys on table, the three networks we all watch,

838
00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:56,879
Speaker 1: I guess there's four or five now, I mean they've

839
00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:58,600
Speaker 1: all kind of take they're all in the Trump slam.

840
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:02,239
Speaker 1: I mean they were really cooking, as was you know,

841
00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:05,399
Speaker 1: the you know, Washington Post and the New York Times

842
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:07,799
Speaker 1: everything during the Trump period because everything was hot all

843
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:11,960
Speaker 1: the time. So they've got a they gotta figure out

844
00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:15,799
Speaker 1: that they've created a model, which pretty much is economically

845
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:19,600
Speaker 1: it's just talking heads. No one's really out doing any stories.

846
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:22,320
Speaker 1: There's talking to people in the studio. That's where I

847
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:24,640
Speaker 1: thought Advice had a real angle of young people. They're

848
00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:26,440
Speaker 1: really going to be interested, they can take a different

849
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:28,880
Speaker 1: take on the news, and to some extent that was

850
00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:32,759
Speaker 1: largely true. Uh, but what happens now, I don't know.

851
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:36,839
Speaker 1: The real shame is, like on the local level, local stations,

852
00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:43,040
Speaker 1: local uh newspapers. I mean, they're just consolidating, consolidating, sucking

853
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:46,080
Speaker 1: costs out there really isn't much there. I spent a

854
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:51,920
Speaker 1: good part of the of the pandemic up in Santa Barbara,

855
00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:54,399
Speaker 1: and they have up there. It's so bad that three

856
00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:57,960
Speaker 1: the three broadcast stations have joined together to have the

857
00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:02,759
Speaker 1: same weather report, and they're they're sharing news stories, which

858
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:05,399
Speaker 1: are not many much of a news story to begin with.

859
00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:08,879
Speaker 1: So and and the money sort of has been just

860
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:12,920
Speaker 1: sucked out of the that the linear television business and

861
00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:17,479
Speaker 1: from every aspect. So it doesn't look too good for

862
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:22,080
Speaker 1: local news, and it doesn't look too good for uh

863
00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:25,560
Speaker 1: local newspapers. The problem there, of course, is we're gonna

864
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:32,359
Speaker 1: have an even more ignorant siloed you know, populus, who

865
00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:34,839
Speaker 1: knows even less about what's going on than they then

866
00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:37,239
Speaker 1: they then then you. Now, I don't know what the

867
00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:39,200
Speaker 1: answer is, Bob. I mean, it seems like if you're

868
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:42,120
Speaker 1: a big if you can hire reporters and really put

869
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:44,560
Speaker 1: out good editorial product, like the Wall Street Journal or

870
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:48,680
Speaker 1: the Washington Post, you can set up a digital business

871
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:51,440
Speaker 1: that you know would sustain you. And those guys all

872
00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:54,319
Speaker 1: have done that. I mean, they have paying subscribers. Now,

873
00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:58,880
Speaker 1: they aren't that reliant on advertising, but they're like national

874
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:01,840
Speaker 1: papers in a sense, I don't know what happens down

875
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:05,719
Speaker 1: below them. To straighten that out, you know, trying to

876
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:08,480
Speaker 1: prop up the past just doesn't work, like trying to

877
00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:11,440
Speaker 1: keep the physical bookstore alive, although they had a rebound

878
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:14,280
Speaker 1: prior to COVID. You have to look to the future.

879
00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:16,360
Speaker 1: Just one other thing that may or may not be

880
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:19,480
Speaker 1: on your radar in terms of you know, music, we

881
00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:21,480
Speaker 1: have it all figured out. Music was in the canary

882
00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:23,759
Speaker 1: in the coal mine. It was the first disrupted for

883
00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:26,719
Speaker 1: no other reason. The files were small, but there are

884
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:30,000
Speaker 1: multiple outlets. For essentially ten dollars a month, you can

885
00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:34,400
Speaker 1: get all the history of recorded music. Whereas TV visual

886
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:38,000
Speaker 1: entertainment has been completely balkanized. How does that play out?

887
00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:40,080
Speaker 1: Because one thing we know, people are not going to

888
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:42,839
Speaker 1: subscribe to all these services like being pecked to death

889
00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:46,480
Speaker 1: by ducks. Yeah, they wanted to break up the cable bundle,

890
00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:48,839
Speaker 1: and now you've got the streamer bundle. Basically it's costs

891
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:51,359
Speaker 1: you more than the cable bundle. Right, of course you're

892
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:55,120
Speaker 1: getting better product and uh, you know, it's on demand

893
00:46:55,200 --> 00:47:01,920
Speaker 1: and there's no advertising, but I mean, the whole world

894
00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:05,400
Speaker 1: of interrupted television that still exists, the linear TV model

895
00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:07,799
Speaker 1: is just gonna collapse. I mean, there's not gonna be

896
00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:10,759
Speaker 1: much to hold it up after a while. The next

897
00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:13,160
Speaker 1: thing that's gonna happen is we're gonna see Netflix bid

898
00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:17,200
Speaker 1: on the NFL, you know, and we're gonna start seeing sports,

899
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:20,520
Speaker 1: which is long with news. The mainstays of what's left

900
00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:25,600
Speaker 1: of the you know, broadcast cable sort of ecosystem. Those

901
00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:28,440
Speaker 1: two must have things are gonna be pecked away by

902
00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:32,680
Speaker 1: the by the more, by the richer streaming services. So

903
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:39,040
Speaker 1: we're gonna be looking at what streaming service do you buy?

904
00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:41,320
Speaker 1: How many do you need? And right now you've got

905
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:44,320
Speaker 1: Paramount has under Viacom has one with a lot of

906
00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:47,520
Speaker 1: paramount product, Warner Brothers has, you know, like all of

907
00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:49,520
Speaker 1: a sudden, it's all balk and that's what the hell

908
00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:51,720
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not gonna buy all of these things.

909
00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:56,239
Speaker 1: It's gonna cost me a fortune. I would think that

910
00:47:56,280 --> 00:47:59,400
Speaker 1: there's gonna be some consolidation that's gonna happen. We know

911
00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:03,359
Speaker 1: that Disney Plus has it made, and Amazon and uh

912
00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:07,280
Speaker 1: and Hulu and uh Netflix all had sort of first

913
00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:10,680
Speaker 1: mover advantages. But what happens with the other guys. On

914
00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:15,000
Speaker 1: one hand, Discovery might have a shot because they have

915
00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:17,680
Speaker 1: a low price and they're sort of out of the

916
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:20,120
Speaker 1: head to head competition the other guys with their own

917
00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:22,440
Speaker 1: own product. It's sort of in the nonfiction space, it's

918
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:26,160
Speaker 1: sort of a niche business. AMC has all these independent movies,

919
00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:28,240
Speaker 1: a little niche business. I mean, if they can get

920
00:48:28,719 --> 00:48:31,799
Speaker 1: eight ten million subs, maybe they'll be happy. But if

921
00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:35,640
Speaker 1: you're a viewer, you know it's gonna be frustrating if

922
00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:37,200
Speaker 1: you want to watch a movie one night and it's

923
00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:40,200
Speaker 1: on another streaming service. You know, I don't see a

924
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:42,399
Speaker 1: lot of people. I think some people now have three,

925
00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:46,080
Speaker 1: four and five, but I don't see that continuing as

926
00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:50,280
Speaker 1: a head scratcher. Okay, since you worked in Hollywood, has

927
00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:52,600
Speaker 1: there been a shifting of power? I mean when we

928
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:54,839
Speaker 1: were growing up, certainly living in l A, you knew

929
00:48:54,880 --> 00:48:57,160
Speaker 1: the heads of every studio. Now the people in l

930
00:48:57,200 --> 00:48:59,200
Speaker 1: A don't even know the heads of the studio, but

931
00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:02,200
Speaker 1: they certainly know Read Hastings in Tim Cook. You know

932
00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:05,640
Speaker 1: Tim Cook has in you know unlimited checkbook. What you know,

933
00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:09,280
Speaker 1: Apple TV Plus at this point is basically given away free,

934
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:11,960
Speaker 1: and they can afford to give it away free. But

935
00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:15,040
Speaker 1: are those that people who really have the power and

936
00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:19,279
Speaker 1: the people in Hollywood who operate completely differently, have they

937
00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:22,840
Speaker 1: fallen behind? Because in Silicon that's a data driven business,

938
00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:27,160
Speaker 1: real business, where Hollywood's a schmooze business. Has it? Finally,

939
00:49:27,239 --> 00:49:31,799
Speaker 1: if they is time, if times caught up with them, well,

940
00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:35,239
Speaker 1: in a sense, you know, if you were if you

941
00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:38,800
Speaker 1: didn't have a legacy studio business with all that overhead

942
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:40,920
Speaker 1: that goes with it, and you were a triple a

943
00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:46,840
Speaker 1: independent producduction company like say Imagine Entertainment, Grazer and Ron Howard,

944
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:52,520
Speaker 1: where you can regularly create content of high quality, you

945
00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:54,880
Speaker 1: you can say this is great. I'm like an arms dealer.

946
00:49:55,280 --> 00:49:57,719
Speaker 1: Now instead of going around to these studios, I can

947
00:49:58,200 --> 00:50:00,480
Speaker 1: I can on the basis of my repute Asian, I

948
00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:04,440
Speaker 1: can get a big deal with Netflix or with Apple

949
00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:07,480
Speaker 1: or something. So they have a lot of places to

950
00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:10,920
Speaker 1: sell stuff, and they have good stuff. For someone like them,

951
00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:14,759
Speaker 1: they are, i could argue, more empowered, and they can

952
00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:16,759
Speaker 1: be more and more of a talent magnet to get

953
00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:20,600
Speaker 1: because they can get stuff on the air. It's it's

954
00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:25,160
Speaker 1: but the whole schmoozing Hollywood agent thing is is sort

955
00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:27,640
Speaker 1: of being deconstructed, Bob. I mean you really can see

956
00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:33,480
Speaker 1: that happening. Uh. Um, it's not. Uh, it's not. Making

957
00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:37,759
Speaker 1: movies is not the most profitable business right now. And uh,

958
00:50:37,920 --> 00:50:41,319
Speaker 1: you know you saw what happened with the oscars. But

959
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:44,040
Speaker 1: I would say being a being a good independent production

960
00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:46,800
Speaker 1: company doesn't have a lot of legacy costs going along

961
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:49,919
Speaker 1: with you, is Okay. The problem there, though, is these

962
00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:52,960
Speaker 1: streamers don't really leave you any back end. So if

963
00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:55,160
Speaker 1: you have a big hit, you know, say you make

964
00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:57,920
Speaker 1: a Seinfeld, You're not gonna have a Larry David pay

965
00:50:58,040 --> 00:50:59,440
Speaker 1: day at the end of it. Because they keep a

966
00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:01,040
Speaker 1: hund percent ut of the i P. You can get

967
00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:03,399
Speaker 1: bigger fees, like maybe a three percent fee and maybe

968
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:05,560
Speaker 1: some more on top of that, more than in the past,

969
00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:08,600
Speaker 1: so you're sort of just an indentured guy. You know.

970
00:51:08,719 --> 00:51:10,719
Speaker 1: That might change in the future, maybe if it gets

971
00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:12,960
Speaker 1: more competitive of some of these streamers would be willing

972
00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:16,520
Speaker 1: to grant certain producers some back end positions on the

973
00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:21,480
Speaker 1: stuff that they make. Okay, when MTV was in its heyday,

974
00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:24,520
Speaker 1: it was a mono culture what mtv A certainly said

975
00:51:24,560 --> 00:51:27,240
Speaker 1: on records, never mind the culture at large. Literally around

976
00:51:27,280 --> 00:51:30,400
Speaker 1: the world people knew. Now it's more bulk bulk and

977
00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:33,080
Speaker 1: I it's so balk and I that my question would be,

978
00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:37,160
Speaker 1: is something like the Oscars. Is it essentially done? Is

979
00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:40,920
Speaker 1: there no way to revive? Have people have their eyeballs

980
00:51:41,080 --> 00:51:45,560
Speaker 1: elsewhere nothing has critical mass? Is that where we're driving

981
00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:49,400
Speaker 1: and where do we end up? I think, you know,

982
00:51:49,680 --> 00:51:51,800
Speaker 1: I think it's not done. I mean one of the

983
00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:56,360
Speaker 1: reasons it keeps going is because for the Grammys and

984
00:51:56,400 --> 00:51:59,400
Speaker 1: for the Oscars, there's these huge licensing deals from ABC

985
00:51:59,560 --> 00:52:01,640
Speaker 1: and c B. Yes, like twenty five million, mean insane

986
00:52:01,640 --> 00:52:03,799
Speaker 1: amounts of money they pay, and you know they have

987
00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:06,359
Speaker 1: to keep doing it to make the money. If same

988
00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:09,960
Speaker 1: Netflix or Hulu or somebody were to take these and

989
00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:15,000
Speaker 1: they can run the Oscars without commercials, and uh, you know,

990
00:52:15,160 --> 00:52:17,960
Speaker 1: I think that there's always gonna be an audience for it,

991
00:52:18,239 --> 00:52:21,880
Speaker 1: And uh, I don't think it's necessarily dead, but I

992
00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:24,319
Speaker 1: mean people have sort of been award awards showed to

993
00:52:24,440 --> 00:52:27,160
Speaker 1: death in a way. But I mean, this is the Oscars.

994
00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:30,520
Speaker 1: It's the top of the line feature film in a way.

995
00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:34,840
Speaker 1: Is still king, although that's even arguable these days because

996
00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:37,480
Speaker 1: one of the things you've noticed, and it's accelerated during

997
00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:40,920
Speaker 1: the pandemic, is how people they aren't satisfied with the

998
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:43,480
Speaker 1: ninety or two hour, ninety minute, two hour movie. They

999
00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:46,239
Speaker 1: want to dig into these characters and go on for seasons.

1000
00:52:46,280 --> 00:52:49,120
Speaker 1: I mean, it's crazy. Binge viewing is the other thing

1001
00:52:49,160 --> 00:52:53,080
Speaker 1: that's really made TV a lot more interesting than films.

1002
00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:56,319
Speaker 1: Films are basically you know these uh you know, big

1003
00:52:56,360 --> 00:53:00,920
Speaker 1: event films that can be franchised into sequels with comic

1004
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:04,640
Speaker 1: book characters. So let me ask a little differently, though

1005
00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:07,600
Speaker 1: certainly when you were an MTV they were these international

1006
00:53:07,640 --> 00:53:12,120
Speaker 1: stars built you mentioned you too, are those days done?

1007
00:53:12,239 --> 00:53:15,439
Speaker 1: Let me put it this way, Uh, at this point

1008
00:53:15,520 --> 00:53:18,240
Speaker 1: in time, Taylor's We've put out two records. I would

1009
00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:20,960
Speaker 1: argue that the majority of Americans have never heard a

1010
00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:23,840
Speaker 1: single song, Whereas when we grew up in the sixties,

1011
00:53:24,160 --> 00:53:26,880
Speaker 1: I knew Louis Armstrong, Hello Dolly because I had to

1012
00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:30,760
Speaker 1: wait for the Beatles. So so now is things continue

1013
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:34,319
Speaker 1: to separate irrelevant of the money involved. Is something like

1014
00:53:34,360 --> 00:53:37,600
Speaker 1: the oscars. Oscars are just representative, but whether it be

1015
00:53:37,640 --> 00:53:41,000
Speaker 1: a musician, whether it be anything a news outlet, is

1016
00:53:41,120 --> 00:53:46,040
Speaker 1: everybody's market share essentially going to go down. Yeah, there's

1017
00:53:46,040 --> 00:53:49,400
Speaker 1: more choices and people have more access, immediate access to

1018
00:53:49,480 --> 00:53:51,640
Speaker 1: all those choices, and all kinds of rabbit holes you

1019
00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:54,400
Speaker 1: can fall down when you get in digging in Spotify

1020
00:53:54,520 --> 00:53:56,520
Speaker 1: or I mean, how do you even find good new music?

1021
00:53:56,560 --> 00:53:59,160
Speaker 1: It's hard word of mouth or whatever. I mean, it's

1022
00:53:59,160 --> 00:54:01,840
Speaker 1: a challenge from now. I used to look forward to

1023
00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:05,319
Speaker 1: getting like Rolling Stone or something. You finally, what's a

1024
00:54:05,320 --> 00:54:07,400
Speaker 1: good new who's got some albums out? It's very difficult

1025
00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:10,240
Speaker 1: to you hear something on the radio, you know, terrestrial radio.

1026
00:54:10,320 --> 00:54:13,160
Speaker 1: It's still out there. It's like the cock roads of

1027
00:54:13,239 --> 00:54:16,759
Speaker 1: the media business and it just can't die. Uh and

1028
00:54:16,880 --> 00:54:19,920
Speaker 1: serious is there. But you know, it's like your music,

1029
00:54:20,920 --> 00:54:24,880
Speaker 1: you're you're oversaturated with choices. So it's hard to be

1030
00:54:24,920 --> 00:54:28,120
Speaker 1: a megastar. And what we also saw the days of

1031
00:54:28,160 --> 00:54:31,600
Speaker 1: the Anglo American dire straits, these people who could be

1032
00:54:31,680 --> 00:54:35,040
Speaker 1: real worldwide stars that began to fall away as these

1033
00:54:35,080 --> 00:54:38,600
Speaker 1: countries began to develop their own musical scenes and ecosystems

1034
00:54:38,640 --> 00:54:41,840
Speaker 1: India and places like that, so they they're everything is

1035
00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:44,320
Speaker 1: sort of local in a way. You know, an uber

1036
00:54:44,400 --> 00:54:47,239
Speaker 1: star that's worth you know, that is huge all around

1037
00:54:47,239 --> 00:54:49,360
Speaker 1: the world, hard to find these days. It's certainly not

1038
00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:55,080
Speaker 1: Taylor Swift. Okay, Earlier you mentioned right up front, with

1039
00:54:55,160 --> 00:54:58,840
Speaker 1: no prompting, that you got fired with Viacom. This is

1040
00:54:58,840 --> 00:55:01,400
Speaker 1: a business where every but he lies. They lie about

1041
00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:04,000
Speaker 1: their age. You know, David Geffin lied to get a

1042
00:55:04,080 --> 00:55:08,200
Speaker 1: job at what was then William Morris, you have embraced it.

1043
00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:11,880
Speaker 1: You know, how do you feel about getting fired and

1044
00:55:11,960 --> 00:55:14,120
Speaker 1: what was it like at the time, and why are

1045
00:55:14,120 --> 00:55:18,279
Speaker 1: you so up front with it? Well, I kind of

1046
00:55:18,280 --> 00:55:22,160
Speaker 1: got fired under the best possible circumstances. I got fired

1047
00:55:22,200 --> 00:55:25,160
Speaker 1: by a guy who was known to fire pretty much

1048
00:55:25,200 --> 00:55:28,040
Speaker 1: everybody who would work for him before. So it wasn't

1049
00:55:28,080 --> 00:55:30,640
Speaker 1: like novel I mean had although I think I think

1050
00:55:30,680 --> 00:55:33,120
Speaker 1: he just drove mail karmas and out the door. People

1051
00:55:33,160 --> 00:55:35,760
Speaker 1: assume Meil got fired, but Mel just couldn't take it anymore.

1052
00:55:35,760 --> 00:55:38,959
Speaker 1: I fired Frank BEYONDI. These were bosses that I worked

1053
00:55:38,960 --> 00:55:41,200
Speaker 1: for that I really liked. So I was reticent to

1054
00:55:41,239 --> 00:55:44,920
Speaker 1: take this job from him because I kind of I

1055
00:55:44,960 --> 00:55:46,880
Speaker 1: would leave a job that was perfect for me. It

1056
00:55:46,960 --> 00:55:48,759
Speaker 1: was all the things I loved in one place, and

1057
00:55:48,760 --> 00:55:52,040
Speaker 1: we had created it so and we were doing all right.

1058
00:55:52,080 --> 00:55:55,400
Speaker 1: You know. He split the company into two, which was

1059
00:55:55,440 --> 00:55:58,279
Speaker 1: a bad move to make, just when all the all

1060
00:55:58,280 --> 00:56:00,759
Speaker 1: the digital guy these were like the last days of

1061
00:56:00,840 --> 00:56:03,680
Speaker 1: the legacy media companies, the last hey days. I mean,

1062
00:56:03,719 --> 00:56:06,080
Speaker 1: then the new guys were banging on the door. Google

1063
00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:08,799
Speaker 1: and Apple and Facebook. They all the changes were in

1064
00:56:08,840 --> 00:56:11,920
Speaker 1: the wind. But he called me over. He was piste

1065
00:56:11,960 --> 00:56:15,319
Speaker 1: off about I had. I had worked for him for

1066
00:56:15,560 --> 00:56:17,719
Speaker 1: I had figured it out, Bob. I think seventy one

1067
00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:21,680
Speaker 1: quarters and every quarter we had what they would say

1068
00:56:21,680 --> 00:56:25,359
Speaker 1: in the finance ray double digit earnings growth. You know.

1069
00:56:25,480 --> 00:56:28,160
Speaker 1: We went public and we had like one my first

1070
00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:30,880
Speaker 1: quarter when we were black Viacommon I was the CEO,

1071
00:56:31,040 --> 00:56:34,240
Speaker 1: went down a bit. But he fired me because basically

1072
00:56:34,280 --> 00:56:37,400
Speaker 1: he was going to install Philippe Dumont and I wasn't.

1073
00:56:38,800 --> 00:56:41,200
Speaker 1: He really liked me and treated me well for a

1074
00:56:41,239 --> 00:56:44,919
Speaker 1: lot of years, but uh, he called me over after

1075
00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:47,360
Speaker 1: Labor Day and just said, you know, I got terrible

1076
00:56:47,360 --> 00:56:49,640
Speaker 1: news for you. The board of directors wants me to

1077
00:56:49,719 --> 00:56:53,239
Speaker 1: fire you immediately, which I really had to laugh, right

1078
00:56:53,719 --> 00:56:57,120
Speaker 1: because I mean he is the board of director and Uh.

1079
00:56:57,160 --> 00:56:59,120
Speaker 1: I found out afterwards that there have been a coup

1080
00:56:59,200 --> 00:57:02,880
Speaker 1: brewing all of on. Uh so I just got up

1081
00:57:02,880 --> 00:57:07,120
Speaker 1: and left. And a coup against you or a coup well,

1082
00:57:07,160 --> 00:57:09,600
Speaker 1: I mean I think no, it was a coup against

1083
00:57:09,680 --> 00:57:14,080
Speaker 1: me by Philippe, my my successor, who changed it all

1084
00:57:14,160 --> 00:57:16,880
Speaker 1: into a sort of a legal strategy to run instead

1085
00:57:16,920 --> 00:57:20,480
Speaker 1: of making it, you know, exalting the creative people and

1086
00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:22,439
Speaker 1: trying to start for good creative work. And we're gonna

1087
00:57:22,480 --> 00:57:26,200
Speaker 1: sue YouTube, We're gonna sue everybody. And that wasn't a

1088
00:57:26,680 --> 00:57:29,680
Speaker 1: that wasn't a proper strategy, as it turned out. But

1089
00:57:30,240 --> 00:57:32,520
Speaker 1: I I figured I had been there twenty six years,

1090
00:57:33,440 --> 00:57:37,320
Speaker 1: I had a great run. I would have stayed. I

1091
00:57:37,360 --> 00:57:40,120
Speaker 1: loved the people there. I I would have stayed. But

1092
00:57:40,160 --> 00:57:42,880
Speaker 1: I figured out I was I was sixty when it happened.

1093
00:57:42,880 --> 00:57:47,000
Speaker 1: I figured, you know, this is a new opportunity. Um,

1094
00:57:47,120 --> 00:57:49,160
Speaker 1: there's that old addas one door closes and a lot

1095
00:57:49,200 --> 00:57:51,320
Speaker 1: more open and all of a sudden, this stage of

1096
00:57:51,360 --> 00:57:53,840
Speaker 1: my life has been a whole new chapter than I

1097
00:57:53,880 --> 00:57:57,120
Speaker 1: had that chapter in in Asia. And so this chapter

1098
00:57:57,200 --> 00:58:00,640
Speaker 1: has been just terrific. You know, I haven't had to

1099
00:58:00,720 --> 00:58:02,600
Speaker 1: deal with that fucking guy I mean I would come

1100
00:58:02,640 --> 00:58:04,560
Speaker 1: in the morning and there'd be a stack of facts

1101
00:58:04,640 --> 00:58:06,880
Speaker 1: is on my chair about you know, he was holed

1102
00:58:06,960 --> 00:58:09,680
Speaker 1: up in his house in Beverly Park as stack what

1103
00:58:09,720 --> 00:58:12,360
Speaker 1: are you gonna do about the stock price? You know,

1104
00:58:12,400 --> 00:58:14,080
Speaker 1: they looked like bomb threats. I fingured he had the

1105
00:58:14,160 --> 00:58:17,800
Speaker 1: last fax machine on the planet. He was sending him over.

1106
00:58:17,840 --> 00:58:20,960
Speaker 1: So I got fired and everybody knew it, so uh,

1107
00:58:22,160 --> 00:58:24,240
Speaker 1: and he fired me. The reason was, well, I didn't

1108
00:58:24,280 --> 00:58:26,760
Speaker 1: buy my Space. And what really annoyed him he never

1109
00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:29,400
Speaker 1: even fucking heard him my Space. What annoyed him was

1110
00:58:29,400 --> 00:58:32,480
Speaker 1: that Rupert Murdoch bought it. We weren't even really we

1111
00:58:32,600 --> 00:58:34,640
Speaker 1: never even made an offer on it. I we had

1112
00:58:34,640 --> 00:58:37,360
Speaker 1: looked at Friendster and you know, that kind of came

1113
00:58:37,400 --> 00:58:41,560
Speaker 1: and went. And at the time Facebook was just really

1114
00:58:41,600 --> 00:58:44,280
Speaker 1: only college students, so it was still kind of an

1115
00:58:44,320 --> 00:58:47,360
Speaker 1: unproven thing. But anyway, Rupert Murdoch came in one weekend

1116
00:58:47,960 --> 00:58:51,200
Speaker 1: and just bought the thing for five seventy million dollars,

1117
00:58:51,600 --> 00:58:54,440
Speaker 1: No due diligence, no nothing, And he ends up as

1118
00:58:54,520 --> 00:58:57,840
Speaker 1: like the new the new media guru, and he's on

1119
00:58:57,880 --> 00:59:00,280
Speaker 1: the cover of all these magazines. He was some RS

1120
00:59:00,760 --> 00:59:03,680
Speaker 1: arch enemy Rupert didn't think that way, but some of

1121
00:59:03,840 --> 00:59:07,440
Speaker 1: who had a lot of envy for Rupert, uh anyway

1122
00:59:07,800 --> 00:59:10,000
Speaker 1: that you know, so you know, he would say he

1123
00:59:10,080 --> 00:59:12,160
Speaker 1: going on. Charlie Rosen said he had the prize and

1124
00:59:12,200 --> 00:59:14,400
Speaker 1: he lost it. I didn't have the prize. We weren't

1125
00:59:14,400 --> 00:59:18,440
Speaker 1: even really, you know, really seriously looking at buying it.

1126
00:59:18,720 --> 00:59:21,280
Speaker 1: And then when Rupert sold it for thirty five million dollars,

1127
00:59:21,280 --> 00:59:23,400
Speaker 1: I had a good laugh. I keep thinking I wasna

1128
00:59:23,400 --> 00:59:26,439
Speaker 1: get a thank you note, but it never happened. Did

1129
00:59:26,440 --> 00:59:30,800
Speaker 1: you ever talk to Sumner subsequent to your exit? There

1130
00:59:30,880 --> 00:59:32,800
Speaker 1: was one time I was in a restaurant in l

1131
00:59:32,840 --> 00:59:34,680
Speaker 1: a And he was having dinner. I didn't even know

1132
00:59:34,760 --> 00:59:37,320
Speaker 1: he was there. He was having dinner with Bob Evans,

1133
00:59:38,600 --> 00:59:41,680
Speaker 1: who character who I happened to like. But at the

1134
00:59:41,760 --> 00:59:43,680
Speaker 1: end of the meal, I feel these hands on my

1135
00:59:43,800 --> 00:59:46,720
Speaker 1: shoulder and he says, aren't you gonna get up and

1136
00:59:46,720 --> 00:59:49,080
Speaker 1: say hello? You know? And I got up and said hello.

1137
00:59:49,120 --> 00:59:51,000
Speaker 1: But that was pretty much the last time I ever

1138
00:59:51,040 --> 00:59:54,320
Speaker 1: saw him, and both of them are gone now. Evan

1139
00:59:54,440 --> 00:59:59,560
Speaker 1: Zan Sumner, So your your business fails overseas you come

1140
00:59:59,600 --> 01:00:02,560
Speaker 1: back to America. What happens and how to end up

1141
01:00:02,920 --> 01:00:07,480
Speaker 1: at what becomes him. I figured, man, that was rough.

1142
01:00:07,560 --> 01:00:09,280
Speaker 1: I mean I loved what I was doing. I was

1143
01:00:09,280 --> 01:00:12,080
Speaker 1: passionate about it. I mean I got it. I traveled everywhere.

1144
01:00:12,440 --> 01:00:14,520
Speaker 1: India had fourteen states, then I went to every one

1145
01:00:14,560 --> 01:00:16,080
Speaker 1: of them. I I just loved it. And then I

1146
01:00:16,120 --> 01:00:17,960
Speaker 1: got wiped out. Now I'm in debt like a half

1147
01:00:17,960 --> 01:00:20,560
Speaker 1: a million dollars, and who the fund is gonna hire me?

1148
01:00:20,640 --> 01:00:23,080
Speaker 1: Everyone I knew had moved along in their careers or whatever.

1149
01:00:23,480 --> 01:00:25,200
Speaker 1: But I knew one thing. I was gonna do something

1150
01:00:25,280 --> 01:00:27,880
Speaker 1: I loved. And I had deduced that what I loved

1151
01:00:27,960 --> 01:00:31,080
Speaker 1: was music. And I had been a fan, you know,

1152
01:00:31,440 --> 01:00:33,080
Speaker 1: like you. I mean I was a real fan. I

1153
01:00:33,120 --> 01:00:35,680
Speaker 1: really knew my stuff. So at one point I used

1154
01:00:35,720 --> 01:00:38,080
Speaker 1: to come back and my brother worked for Columbia Records

1155
01:00:38,080 --> 01:00:40,600
Speaker 1: in the mid seventies, and he'd say, hey, you know,

1156
01:00:40,680 --> 01:00:42,880
Speaker 1: Bruce King scenes at the bottom line, why don't you

1157
01:00:42,920 --> 01:00:45,360
Speaker 1: come along? And I see how these guys were riding

1158
01:00:45,480 --> 01:00:49,640
Speaker 1: around in limousines, and I said this, I could do this,

1159
01:00:49,640 --> 01:00:52,280
Speaker 1: This is easy. This is this was like the height

1160
01:00:52,320 --> 01:00:54,800
Speaker 1: of the of the of the of the record company business.

1161
01:00:55,280 --> 01:00:58,000
Speaker 1: So when I came back, I read an article that

1162
01:00:58,080 --> 01:01:00,680
Speaker 1: I got I got a copy. I got copy the billboard,

1163
01:01:00,680 --> 01:01:02,760
Speaker 1: and I would say what new companies were starting, because

1164
01:01:02,760 --> 01:01:04,560
Speaker 1: I wanted to fear if I started a new company,

1165
01:01:04,760 --> 01:01:07,640
Speaker 1: there'd be room to grow and I could maybe sell myself.

1166
01:01:08,560 --> 01:01:10,800
Speaker 1: So my I saw this article an interview with this

1167
01:01:10,800 --> 01:01:12,880
Speaker 1: guy named John Lax, and they're gonna start a music

1168
01:01:12,960 --> 01:01:15,480
Speaker 1: video channel on TV. I thought this was the greatest

1169
01:01:15,480 --> 01:01:17,600
Speaker 1: idea I ever heard of. This was fantastic. So I

1170
01:01:17,600 --> 01:01:20,360
Speaker 1: asked my brother if he knew anybody at this one

1171
01:01:20,440 --> 01:01:22,440
Speaker 1: er amics company, and it turns out he did. He

1172
01:01:22,520 --> 01:01:26,520
Speaker 1: knew that this guy Bob mcgrorty, and he got me

1173
01:01:26,520 --> 01:01:28,800
Speaker 1: an interview with Bob mcgroorty, and I got old. You know.

1174
01:01:28,840 --> 01:01:31,320
Speaker 1: I went in and saw him and I said, hey,

1175
01:01:31,360 --> 01:01:34,400
Speaker 1: you need entrepreneurs. I'm a music fan. I had this business.

1176
01:01:34,440 --> 01:01:36,920
Speaker 1: I showed him all these things from Vogue magazine. I

1177
01:01:36,920 --> 01:01:39,840
Speaker 1: could I can do stuff. This is the greatest idea ever.

1178
01:01:40,040 --> 01:01:41,760
Speaker 1: He says, we gotta go and to meet John Lack.

1179
01:01:42,680 --> 01:01:44,640
Speaker 1: So I go next sort of John Lax office, which

1180
01:01:44,680 --> 01:01:46,600
Speaker 1: was dark. He had like a cocktail table and he

1181
01:01:46,680 --> 01:01:49,240
Speaker 1: was like wearing slippers, and I told him where I

1182
01:01:49,240 --> 01:01:51,280
Speaker 1: had been. He said, so you were a drug smuggler, right,

1183
01:01:52,920 --> 01:01:55,439
Speaker 1: And I go, I'm not really and he he thought

1184
01:01:55,480 --> 01:01:58,040
Speaker 1: that was an asset. But then he said the magic phrase.

1185
01:01:58,080 --> 01:02:02,160
Speaker 1: He said, you know, we're starting to thing. It's gonna

1186
01:02:02,200 --> 01:02:05,040
Speaker 1: be like we're gonna do the FM radio. We're gonna

1187
01:02:05,040 --> 01:02:07,120
Speaker 1: do the AM radio. What FM did? He came out

1188
01:02:07,120 --> 01:02:09,560
Speaker 1: of the CBS Radio group, and this is a whole

1189
01:02:09,560 --> 01:02:12,240
Speaker 1: new video revolution. This is really the beginning of the

1190
01:02:12,320 --> 01:02:14,760
Speaker 1: modern cable era. He says. But I'm looking for people

1191
01:02:14,800 --> 01:02:17,600
Speaker 1: who have no experience in television. This was the magic

1192
01:02:17,640 --> 01:02:20,200
Speaker 1: words for me, somethinking who the fund is gonna hire me?

1193
01:02:20,880 --> 01:02:23,200
Speaker 1: I'm just like they think I was a drug smuggler,

1194
01:02:23,520 --> 01:02:27,600
Speaker 1: you know. So they hire me and I get on

1195
01:02:27,720 --> 01:02:30,120
Speaker 1: a team and he says, well, let's wait around. Uh,

1196
01:02:30,160 --> 01:02:32,360
Speaker 1: you know, come on in and we're and we're not

1197
01:02:32,360 --> 01:02:34,320
Speaker 1: gonna we have to still get the green light, but

1198
01:02:34,320 --> 01:02:36,160
Speaker 1: we're gonna do this, So come on and we'll give

1199
01:02:36,160 --> 01:02:38,560
Speaker 1: me a job in the meantime helping to sell Nickelodeon

1200
01:02:38,560 --> 01:02:42,200
Speaker 1: and the movie Channel. So then he hires Bob Pittman

1201
01:02:43,240 --> 01:02:45,960
Speaker 1: and uh, I go to see Bob, he says, go

1202
01:02:46,040 --> 01:02:48,360
Speaker 1: see Bob Pittman. He's putting together a development team for

1203
01:02:48,640 --> 01:02:51,840
Speaker 1: wasn't called MTV then for this music channel. So I

1204
01:02:51,880 --> 01:02:53,919
Speaker 1: go in to see Bob, who was like twenty six

1205
01:02:53,960 --> 01:02:57,480
Speaker 1: I'm now thirty four, and he's the hippie kind of

1206
01:02:57,880 --> 01:03:00,960
Speaker 1: youth's whisperer. Everyone thought that smooth is talking bill best

1207
01:03:01,000 --> 01:03:04,520
Speaker 1: bullshit and guy. Ever then he's a brilliant, brilliant guy.

1208
01:03:04,640 --> 01:03:08,080
Speaker 1: We're still friends. But he said to me, so Black says,

1209
01:03:08,120 --> 01:03:10,520
Speaker 1: I should see you. I said, yeah, I think this

1210
01:03:10,680 --> 01:03:13,160
Speaker 1: is the greatest idea. I think it's I think it's

1211
01:03:13,160 --> 01:03:15,160
Speaker 1: a winner, and you know, I think I could really add.

1212
01:03:15,160 --> 01:03:16,800
Speaker 1: He says, well, we do. Now you were you were

1213
01:03:16,800 --> 01:03:20,960
Speaker 1: a drug smuggler. He's the second guy who accuses me

1214
01:03:21,000 --> 01:03:23,600
Speaker 1: of this and thinks it's a benefit. So he hired me,

1215
01:03:23,640 --> 01:03:26,400
Speaker 1: and I was part of a team of five that

1216
01:03:26,400 --> 01:03:29,960
Speaker 1: that you know, developed what became MTV. And then I

1217
01:03:30,080 --> 01:03:33,439
Speaker 1: stayed and uh stayed and stayed, and you know, Bob

1218
01:03:33,520 --> 01:03:35,680
Speaker 1: kept promoting me. And then when we tried to do

1219
01:03:35,720 --> 01:03:40,360
Speaker 1: an L B O uh and and and lost, Bob

1220
01:03:40,440 --> 01:03:44,400
Speaker 1: left the company. He left me president, and then Viacom

1221
01:03:44,480 --> 01:03:48,200
Speaker 1: bought us. But it wasn't the Viacom a Sumner Redstone.

1222
01:03:48,280 --> 01:03:51,000
Speaker 1: It was some other guys who's some of the redstone

1223
01:03:51,080 --> 01:03:54,200
Speaker 1: later displaced. But that's how I got the job. And

1224
01:03:54,240 --> 01:03:57,800
Speaker 1: I think God luck is so amazing and timing and

1225
01:03:57,880 --> 01:03:59,640
Speaker 1: so amazing. I mean I might have not had that

1226
01:03:59,680 --> 01:04:02,400
Speaker 1: copy of Billboard magazine, never seen that article, or maybe

1227
01:04:02,480 --> 01:04:05,480
Speaker 1: my brother didn't know you know this guy, Bob McGroarty,

1228
01:04:05,600 --> 01:04:07,920
Speaker 1: and you know, my whole life would have been different.

1229
01:04:08,560 --> 01:04:13,200
Speaker 1: What happened to the debt? Oh, I paid it off.

1230
01:04:13,240 --> 01:04:15,440
Speaker 1: You know when we were working there, I mean, no

1231
01:04:15,440 --> 01:04:18,440
Speaker 1: one we were all making that thirty grand. I mean

1232
01:04:18,440 --> 01:04:20,920
Speaker 1: we no one cared about money. It was like a startup.

1233
01:04:20,920 --> 01:04:23,480
Speaker 1: We're just eating pizzas. And you know, we had we

1234
01:04:23,520 --> 01:04:26,720
Speaker 1: had We had my my office I shared with John Psyche.

1235
01:04:26,760 --> 01:04:29,480
Speaker 1: We had coal waiting, we had one phone with call waiting.

1236
01:04:29,960 --> 01:04:33,920
Speaker 1: But I found out that I could got in this account.

1237
01:04:33,920 --> 01:04:35,080
Speaker 1: He says, you know, you could write some of that

1238
01:04:35,200 --> 01:04:37,360
Speaker 1: off as bad debt. And now you ever started making money,

1239
01:04:37,400 --> 01:04:39,120
Speaker 1: it's only really in it cost you like two fifty

1240
01:04:39,240 --> 01:04:49,280
Speaker 1: or three. So I gradually paid it off. Okay, So

1241
01:04:49,440 --> 01:04:53,480
Speaker 1: what year do you go to work for MTV? Okay?

1242
01:04:53,680 --> 01:04:58,520
Speaker 1: What year do you get married? Eighty? Okay, So if

1243
01:04:58,520 --> 01:05:01,120
Speaker 1: you're making thirty grand a year. What's going on there?

1244
01:05:01,720 --> 01:05:04,640
Speaker 1: My my then wife, she was working on Wall Street

1245
01:05:04,720 --> 01:05:07,320
Speaker 1: and she was making like three times what I was making.

1246
01:05:07,320 --> 01:05:10,480
Speaker 1: And you know, you know, you're just a rent paying

1247
01:05:10,640 --> 01:05:15,040
Speaker 1: person in Manhattan, and it was you know, money wasn't

1248
01:05:15,080 --> 01:05:18,000
Speaker 1: money didn't become a big thing to quite a while later,

1249
01:05:18,720 --> 01:05:20,360
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, no one was making a ton

1250
01:05:20,360 --> 01:05:22,280
Speaker 1: of money. But we made enough to live and survive

1251
01:05:22,360 --> 01:05:27,640
Speaker 1: and ultimately bought an apartment down downtown and rebeca Okay,

1252
01:05:27,640 --> 01:05:33,000
Speaker 1: so Tauga's first one, MTV launches. What's the experience on

1253
01:05:33,040 --> 01:05:35,760
Speaker 1: the other side of the screen and what exactly is

1254
01:05:35,800 --> 01:05:39,240
Speaker 1: your job? At the beginning in the years to go by,

1255
01:05:39,280 --> 01:05:42,720
Speaker 1: I was ahead of marketing, so I was responsible for

1256
01:05:42,840 --> 01:05:46,560
Speaker 1: getting people to watch this thing. When we launched, it

1257
01:05:46,600 --> 01:05:48,920
Speaker 1: was unavailable in New York, it was unavailable in l A.

1258
01:05:49,040 --> 01:05:51,200
Speaker 1: I mean it really started. MTV was really born in

1259
01:05:51,240 --> 01:05:53,800
Speaker 1: the Midwest, and we we had a launch party and

1260
01:05:54,080 --> 01:05:56,280
Speaker 1: at like a one bar we could find who had

1261
01:05:56,640 --> 01:05:58,720
Speaker 1: some guy had like twenty cable customers, and it was

1262
01:05:58,720 --> 01:06:00,680
Speaker 1: in New Jersey, so we had a lawn party there.

1263
01:06:01,640 --> 01:06:04,840
Speaker 1: But what happened would be I these cities like Tulsa,

1264
01:06:05,000 --> 01:06:09,080
Speaker 1: de Moine, uh Wichita. They had big cable systems, they

1265
01:06:09,080 --> 01:06:12,560
Speaker 1: had room for MTV, the no One. So I would

1266
01:06:12,560 --> 01:06:14,040
Speaker 1: go out there and spend times that I want to

1267
01:06:14,120 --> 01:06:17,240
Speaker 1: immerse myself with the people who actually have this in

1268
01:06:17,360 --> 01:06:19,320
Speaker 1: real time and see what effect it had. It was.

1269
01:06:19,400 --> 01:06:21,040
Speaker 1: I was the first guy to know this was a

1270
01:06:21,080 --> 01:06:25,800
Speaker 1: slam Cold's solid hit because when I show up there,

1271
01:06:26,040 --> 01:06:28,400
Speaker 1: I have on a jacket with an MTV button at

1272
01:06:28,400 --> 01:06:30,880
Speaker 1: the rent a car place, and the girl says, where

1273
01:06:30,880 --> 01:06:33,320
Speaker 1: did you get that? How do I get that? I

1274
01:06:33,360 --> 01:06:35,880
Speaker 1: got a pocket full of buttons, I realized. And then

1275
01:06:35,920 --> 01:06:38,280
Speaker 1: I go to the radio stations to see what kind

1276
01:06:38,320 --> 01:06:41,480
Speaker 1: of impact it had had on request and airplay, went

1277
01:06:41,520 --> 01:06:43,480
Speaker 1: to record store and find out we were selling records.

1278
01:06:43,480 --> 01:06:45,840
Speaker 1: But then I would go to nightclubs and bars and

1279
01:06:45,880 --> 01:06:48,439
Speaker 1: just talk to people, and uh, it was the first

1280
01:06:48,440 --> 01:06:50,240
Speaker 1: time I ever really spent any time in the Midwest.

1281
01:06:50,280 --> 01:06:52,920
Speaker 1: But people were thrilled with this. They thought it was

1282
01:06:52,960 --> 01:06:55,080
Speaker 1: a great sign of the future, and it was. It

1283
01:06:55,160 --> 01:06:58,120
Speaker 1: was the beginning of the of the video revolution, which

1284
01:06:58,160 --> 01:07:01,320
Speaker 1: you know still continues, but was a whole new visual

1285
01:07:01,440 --> 01:07:04,240
Speaker 1: vocabulary for people. And at the beginning, as you know,

1286
01:07:04,280 --> 01:07:06,000
Speaker 1: we had all these acts, no one ever heard of

1287
01:07:06,240 --> 01:07:09,760
Speaker 1: you know, Duran, Duran and Culture Club and Cyndey Lauper

1288
01:07:09,920 --> 01:07:12,520
Speaker 1: and the you know. So the record guys and the

1289
01:07:12,560 --> 01:07:15,120
Speaker 1: record stores were saying, we're selling these records. People are

1290
01:07:15,120 --> 01:07:19,440
Speaker 1: coming in asking for the buggles. Uh. The radio stations

1291
01:07:19,440 --> 01:07:21,520
Speaker 1: would say, people are calling up requesting these songs. So

1292
01:07:21,560 --> 01:07:23,960
Speaker 1: the radio stations A O R stations more mainly they

1293
01:07:23,960 --> 01:07:26,360
Speaker 1: were in CHR stations, they would they would start playing

1294
01:07:26,400 --> 01:07:28,520
Speaker 1: these singles. So we were able to show the record companies,

1295
01:07:28,520 --> 01:07:31,280
Speaker 1: who didn't want to even make videos, that these things

1296
01:07:31,280 --> 01:07:33,960
Speaker 1: actually work to sell records. They were like three many commercials.

1297
01:07:34,240 --> 01:07:36,080
Speaker 1: So I did that, and then I worked on the

1298
01:07:36,360 --> 01:07:38,920
Speaker 1: I Want My MTV campaign because we were then running

1299
01:07:38,920 --> 01:07:41,840
Speaker 1: out of money and the cable operators were refusing to

1300
01:07:41,880 --> 01:07:45,320
Speaker 1: pay the ten cents a month for us. So what

1301
01:07:45,520 --> 01:07:47,760
Speaker 1: was their logic not paying the ten cent? We're gonna

1302
01:07:47,800 --> 01:07:49,600
Speaker 1: pay you ten cents for this? I mean, who then

1303
01:07:49,760 --> 01:07:53,360
Speaker 1: is gonna watch? No one's watching music on television? Who paid?

1304
01:07:53,360 --> 01:07:57,000
Speaker 1: You know, at that point in time, they were paying ESPN.

1305
01:07:57,280 --> 01:08:00,560
Speaker 1: ESPN was paying them to get carried. Now he has

1306
01:08:00,640 --> 01:08:04,200
Speaker 1: been charges like five bucks aside even more maybe, But

1307
01:08:04,360 --> 01:08:06,760
Speaker 1: then they had they the cable operators didn't want to

1308
01:08:06,800 --> 01:08:09,400
Speaker 1: pay for anything. And if there was eleven cable operators

1309
01:08:09,400 --> 01:08:11,560
Speaker 1: in the market, all these each of monopolists in his

1310
01:08:11,640 --> 01:08:14,960
Speaker 1: own territory, they kind of had a little thing together.

1311
01:08:15,040 --> 01:08:18,080
Speaker 1: So we decided based on the experience that people who

1312
01:08:18,240 --> 01:08:21,559
Speaker 1: like who get this love it, that people who get

1313
01:08:21,560 --> 01:08:24,479
Speaker 1: this are in our target audience, are really animated about it,

1314
01:08:24,520 --> 01:08:25,920
Speaker 1: have a lot of time on their hands. We came

1315
01:08:26,000 --> 01:08:28,519
Speaker 1: up with I Want my MTV. It was a Hail

1316
01:08:28,600 --> 01:08:30,920
Speaker 1: Mary passed. We had like thirty million dollars we were

1317
01:08:30,920 --> 01:08:33,120
Speaker 1: gonna go under, and we said, let's see if we

1318
01:08:33,160 --> 01:08:36,120
Speaker 1: could pull this thing. If we could get some rock star,

1319
01:08:37,040 --> 01:08:39,559
Speaker 1: some rock stars to say our name and validate us,

1320
01:08:39,560 --> 01:08:43,240
Speaker 1: maybe hold our logo and you know, say call your

1321
01:08:43,280 --> 01:08:46,360
Speaker 1: cable company and say I want my MTV. Maybe that

1322
01:08:46,400 --> 01:08:48,400
Speaker 1: would work to get these guys over the line. We'll

1323
01:08:48,439 --> 01:08:51,519
Speaker 1: sure enough. We started running these spots that like at

1324
01:08:51,560 --> 01:08:54,280
Speaker 1: the levels of which they you you would introduce a

1325
01:08:54,280 --> 01:08:57,040
Speaker 1: big movie, you know, a lot of rating points, and

1326
01:08:57,400 --> 01:09:00,000
Speaker 1: within a week, every cable operator in market would be

1327
01:09:00,120 --> 01:09:02,479
Speaker 1: calling us up and and and and taking it. So

1328
01:09:02,960 --> 01:09:05,000
Speaker 1: for a couple of years we just rolled out market

1329
01:09:05,040 --> 01:09:07,000
Speaker 1: by market until we got you know, we went from

1330
01:09:07,040 --> 01:09:09,559
Speaker 1: like eight million homes, so like you know, fifty sixty

1331
01:09:09,600 --> 01:09:12,640
Speaker 1: million to the get up to a hundred million. That

1332
01:09:12,760 --> 01:09:15,960
Speaker 1: was that was how we saved ourselves. That's what I did. Okay.

1333
01:09:15,960 --> 01:09:18,800
Speaker 1: So the marketing on some level, you could say you

1334
01:09:18,840 --> 01:09:22,519
Speaker 1: were cable related market you were dealing with the different

1335
01:09:22,520 --> 01:09:27,519
Speaker 1: cable systems, dealt with the cable systems. Uh yeah, okay.

1336
01:09:27,560 --> 01:09:33,480
Speaker 1: But one thing that MTV was famous for was their creativity. Ultimately,

1337
01:09:33,520 --> 01:09:37,599
Speaker 1: you know when John Melli Camp's Pink Cows and then

1338
01:09:37,640 --> 01:09:40,639
Speaker 1: they were who was coming up with those ideas? Well.

1339
01:09:40,720 --> 01:09:42,800
Speaker 1: We we had a small team, so we sort of

1340
01:09:42,800 --> 01:09:46,080
Speaker 1: worked together. Now John Sykes, who I split an office with,

1341
01:09:46,360 --> 01:09:48,880
Speaker 1: one of the world's great promotion man. He's you know

1342
01:09:49,080 --> 01:09:51,519
Speaker 1: his ideas. Look, we gotta give away stuff that radio

1343
01:09:51,560 --> 01:09:54,599
Speaker 1: stations aren't doing. Let's and John is the ultimate fan.

1344
01:09:54,760 --> 01:09:57,240
Speaker 1: So what I want to one night stand with the

1345
01:09:57,240 --> 01:09:59,160
Speaker 1: Fleetwood Mac, I mean, I want to be taken out

1346
01:09:59,160 --> 01:10:01,080
Speaker 1: of private jet and meet the band and come back

1347
01:10:01,080 --> 01:10:03,559
Speaker 1: home the same night or so. We would run those things.

1348
01:10:03,600 --> 01:10:06,040
Speaker 1: So we get millions of entries. In those days they

1349
01:10:06,040 --> 01:10:09,000
Speaker 1: come in postcards. We'd have whole offices full of fucking

1350
01:10:09,840 --> 01:10:12,719
Speaker 1: Duffel bags and stuff. What I liked about my job

1351
01:10:12,880 --> 01:10:14,960
Speaker 1: was that was it an nexus between the on air

1352
01:10:15,000 --> 01:10:18,680
Speaker 1: promotion people, the regular promotion people, the people who did

1353
01:10:18,720 --> 01:10:21,120
Speaker 1: the advertise in the ad sales guys, and the programmers

1354
01:10:21,160 --> 01:10:23,880
Speaker 1: who dealt the music. So almost everything came through me.

1355
01:10:24,280 --> 01:10:27,240
Speaker 1: So I got to you know, I got a lot

1356
01:10:27,280 --> 01:10:29,559
Speaker 1: of exposure, which really helped me as I moved up

1357
01:10:29,640 --> 01:10:32,320
Speaker 1: ultimately to like general manager of MTV and then v

1358
01:10:32,560 --> 01:10:34,439
Speaker 1: H one and so forth, so I would get involved,

1359
01:10:35,200 --> 01:10:36,600
Speaker 1: you know what I really wanted to do along with

1360
01:10:36,680 --> 01:10:39,320
Speaker 1: somehow be involved with the programming and be closer to

1361
01:10:40,080 --> 01:10:44,000
Speaker 1: the creative people. And I felt that we had an opportunity,

1362
01:10:44,439 --> 01:10:46,560
Speaker 1: since we couldn't really pay a lot of money, we

1363
01:10:46,600 --> 01:10:48,800
Speaker 1: have an opportunity to kind of turn that place into

1364
01:10:48,840 --> 01:10:53,080
Speaker 1: a creative hothouse by giving people certain latitude and freedom.

1365
01:10:53,160 --> 01:10:55,200
Speaker 1: We we were a reverend, We're a little you know,

1366
01:10:55,320 --> 01:10:58,080
Speaker 1: let people take chances on things and get like a

1367
01:10:58,080 --> 01:11:00,200
Speaker 1: long line of young people to come and work there.

1368
01:11:00,200 --> 01:11:02,040
Speaker 1: And we you know, at some pople we have like

1369
01:11:02,240 --> 01:11:06,400
Speaker 1: Judd Apatow as an intern, or Adam Sandler, John Stewart,

1370
01:11:06,439 --> 01:11:09,120
Speaker 1: we had we were able to really have a great

1371
01:11:10,040 --> 01:11:14,559
Speaker 1: creative resource, and I thought having a creative culture was

1372
01:11:14,600 --> 01:11:17,559
Speaker 1: a big competitive advantage over other people. We didn't rent

1373
01:11:17,600 --> 01:11:21,400
Speaker 1: shows from like uh uh you know, like from producers

1374
01:11:21,439 --> 01:11:23,200
Speaker 1: because we really couldn't afford it. We had to make

1375
01:11:23,240 --> 01:11:25,920
Speaker 1: our own stuff so we could make these channels kind

1376
01:11:25,920 --> 01:11:28,719
Speaker 1: of look you know, singularly, you know, like that everything

1377
01:11:28,800 --> 01:11:32,320
Speaker 1: kind of fit together, and uh, you know, that was

1378
01:11:32,680 --> 01:11:34,160
Speaker 1: that's what we did. I mean, we just wanted to

1379
01:11:34,200 --> 01:11:35,760
Speaker 1: be a little niche thing over on the side of

1380
01:11:35,800 --> 01:11:39,240
Speaker 1: the road. Obviously we became very powerful force in the

1381
01:11:39,320 --> 01:11:43,160
Speaker 1: music business. Yeah, so what happens is you launching eighty one,

1382
01:11:43,360 --> 01:11:46,960
Speaker 1: you have the I Want my MTV campaign, although ultimately

1383
01:11:47,000 --> 01:11:49,960
Speaker 1: you then have Culture Club. The real break is Duran Duran,

1384
01:11:50,479 --> 01:11:54,800
Speaker 1: Duran Duran makes an very expensive video. It becomes very successful.

1385
01:11:55,280 --> 01:11:59,639
Speaker 1: So at first the labels don't want to make videos, okay,

1386
01:11:59,680 --> 01:12:01,880
Speaker 1: then they're saying how much you're gonna pay for us.

1387
01:12:02,000 --> 01:12:04,439
Speaker 1: All of a sudden, everything flips where you have all

1388
01:12:04,479 --> 01:12:07,720
Speaker 1: the power okay, and you made all the hits. What

1389
01:12:07,840 --> 01:12:10,800
Speaker 1: was the experience on your side of the screen, so

1390
01:12:10,880 --> 01:12:15,280
Speaker 1: to speak? It was something I mean, you know, you

1391
01:12:15,320 --> 01:12:17,320
Speaker 1: went from being a nobody and everybody wants to take

1392
01:12:17,320 --> 01:12:19,519
Speaker 1: you to lunch. And those days, the promotion people from

1393
01:12:19,560 --> 01:12:22,880
Speaker 1: the labels, they were they were something you know what

1394
01:12:23,000 --> 01:12:27,640
Speaker 1: I had to do, you know, attendance, the tendency of

1395
01:12:27,640 --> 01:12:30,160
Speaker 1: the people as to develop hubris and get arrogant. I

1396
01:12:30,200 --> 01:12:32,400
Speaker 1: always used to tell people were not as big as

1397
01:12:32,400 --> 01:12:34,240
Speaker 1: we think, We're not as good as we think. When

1398
01:12:34,240 --> 01:12:36,880
Speaker 1: we deal with the labels, you gotta look at it

1399
01:12:36,920 --> 01:12:40,120
Speaker 1: sort of as a partnership. They all want to break

1400
01:12:40,240 --> 01:12:42,519
Speaker 1: artists and do things, and we want things from them.

1401
01:12:42,560 --> 01:12:45,160
Speaker 1: So you know, we're gonna play stuff, but we're gonna

1402
01:12:45,160 --> 01:12:47,920
Speaker 1: be doing favors here or there, and it's gonna come

1403
01:12:47,960 --> 01:12:50,080
Speaker 1: back and get us. We don't want them. They're gonna

1404
01:12:50,080 --> 01:12:52,280
Speaker 1: be predisposed to want to hate us as we get

1405
01:12:52,320 --> 01:12:54,200
Speaker 1: more and more powerful, and we got to try and

1406
01:12:54,280 --> 01:12:57,080
Speaker 1: play against that and be nice. And we would rotate

1407
01:12:57,120 --> 01:12:59,200
Speaker 1: all these guys through the head of you know, the

1408
01:12:59,240 --> 01:13:02,479
Speaker 1: head of the music departments, because sooner or later they

1409
01:13:02,600 --> 01:13:05,519
Speaker 1: go off the deep end, and uh, you know, I

1410
01:13:05,520 --> 01:13:07,680
Speaker 1: think they were geniuses or something, but it would be

1411
01:13:07,800 --> 01:13:09,760
Speaker 1: you know, you go from like, God, is there more

1412
01:13:09,800 --> 01:13:11,800
Speaker 1: than three videos coming in this week to like, you're

1413
01:13:11,800 --> 01:13:14,880
Speaker 1: getting sixty five videos? And people are sending strippers to

1414
01:13:14,960 --> 01:13:18,720
Speaker 1: the office and there's all kinds of shenanigans going on.

1415
01:13:18,920 --> 01:13:20,479
Speaker 1: But it was it was a heavy thing. I mean,

1416
01:13:20,479 --> 01:13:23,840
Speaker 1: they're making videos. Then Lionel Richie's dance walking on the

1417
01:13:23,840 --> 01:13:26,479
Speaker 1: ceiling from a million dollar video, and they were big

1418
01:13:26,520 --> 01:13:30,120
Speaker 1: events and uh, we were able to deploy them worldwide

1419
01:13:30,120 --> 01:13:32,400
Speaker 1: and they kind of paid off. But that whole rocket

1420
01:13:32,400 --> 01:13:34,920
Speaker 1: ship of a ride was you know, you really sort

1421
01:13:34,920 --> 01:13:37,559
Speaker 1: of needed a seatbelt to keep a sense of yourself.

1422
01:13:37,560 --> 01:13:40,800
Speaker 1: But it was, it was. It was a great wide

1423
01:13:40,880 --> 01:13:42,920
Speaker 1: I gotta say, it's fun to be on the inside.

1424
01:13:43,360 --> 01:13:47,040
Speaker 1: A couple of very significant events happened a Live AID

1425
01:13:47,400 --> 01:13:50,880
Speaker 1: and then the vim AS Video Music Awards become a

1426
01:13:50,920 --> 01:13:55,519
Speaker 1: big thing. What's the history there, Well, you're absolutely right.

1427
01:13:56,200 --> 01:13:59,320
Speaker 1: It was a game changer for us Live AID. Uh,

1428
01:13:59,479 --> 01:14:02,439
Speaker 1: you know, they came around, Uh was geled off. They

1429
01:14:02,439 --> 01:14:04,800
Speaker 1: came around and said, you know we're gonna be doing

1430
01:14:04,840 --> 01:14:06,840
Speaker 1: this thing. It's gonna be in Wembley, We're gonna do

1431
01:14:06,920 --> 01:14:10,519
Speaker 1: it in JFK Stadium. We said, well, we'll run it

1432
01:14:10,880 --> 01:14:13,519
Speaker 1: the whole thing because well were we We have a

1433
01:14:13,560 --> 01:14:16,960
Speaker 1: deal with the ABC. ABC wants to do a three

1434
01:14:17,000 --> 01:14:19,920
Speaker 1: hour you know, sort of best stuff thing for later

1435
01:14:19,960 --> 01:14:22,920
Speaker 1: that night. I don't know do that. But the thing

1436
01:14:23,000 --> 01:14:25,240
Speaker 1: is we're in X million homes right now, the real

1437
01:14:25,280 --> 01:14:28,240
Speaker 1: experiences all of this. This is this phenomenal thing you're doing.

1438
01:14:28,280 --> 01:14:30,320
Speaker 1: So we were right up on the stage. We were

1439
01:14:30,400 --> 01:14:33,519
Speaker 1: just off you couldn't see us, but you know, I

1440
01:14:33,600 --> 01:14:37,040
Speaker 1: was right there, and I remember going, Uh. I drove

1441
01:14:37,080 --> 01:14:40,519
Speaker 1: down that day with Sykes and Uh in a rent

1442
01:14:40,560 --> 01:14:43,520
Speaker 1: a car and we didn't have any of our credentials

1443
01:14:43,600 --> 01:14:45,840
Speaker 1: or anything. We couldn't get in, so we ended up

1444
01:14:45,920 --> 01:14:48,840
Speaker 1: jumping the fence and you can believe it into what

1445
01:14:48,920 --> 01:14:51,320
Speaker 1: was the artist area. You see Bob Dylan, all these

1446
01:14:51,360 --> 01:14:53,400
Speaker 1: signs and every artists in the world. I'm thinking that

1447
01:14:53,600 --> 01:14:56,200
Speaker 1: they really got to step up their security. But we

1448
01:14:56,200 --> 01:15:00,760
Speaker 1: we got our credentials and that really was Uh. That

1449
01:15:00,880 --> 01:15:03,360
Speaker 1: was a big moment. A thriller was a big moment.

1450
01:15:03,960 --> 01:15:06,120
Speaker 1: And the Video Music Awards, where we could you know,

1451
01:15:06,320 --> 01:15:08,879
Speaker 1: have like some of these punctuation marks on our schedule

1452
01:15:09,000 --> 01:15:11,880
Speaker 1: where a lot of people who would not ordinarily watch

1453
01:15:11,960 --> 01:15:14,080
Speaker 1: us would come and then they would begin to come

1454
01:15:14,120 --> 01:15:17,760
Speaker 1: back and our over our average audience size would would grow.

1455
01:15:18,080 --> 01:15:20,960
Speaker 1: As with are just our residents in the culture. Okay,

1456
01:15:20,960 --> 01:15:23,080
Speaker 1: there are a couple of significant changes in the mid

1457
01:15:23,120 --> 01:15:29,320
Speaker 1: to late eighties. One was uh, not really scripted program

1458
01:15:29,320 --> 01:15:31,360
Speaker 1: but you have remote control, you had the game show.

1459
01:15:31,880 --> 01:15:34,920
Speaker 1: Now we both know the issue is keeping the people

1460
01:15:35,520 --> 01:15:39,759
Speaker 1: on attached to the channel so that you can get

1461
01:15:39,800 --> 01:15:43,479
Speaker 1: advertising at a higher rate. But the public couldn't understand this.

1462
01:15:43,560 --> 01:15:46,719
Speaker 1: So what was the decision. How did you make that decision? Well,

1463
01:15:47,720 --> 01:15:49,200
Speaker 1: we spent a lot of time on this because what

1464
01:15:49,320 --> 01:15:51,759
Speaker 1: we began to see, like around eight six, eighties seven,

1465
01:15:51,960 --> 01:15:56,479
Speaker 1: was that the vibrancy of just running video music hours

1466
01:15:56,560 --> 01:15:59,880
Speaker 1: ten videos an hour, the ratings were continuing to the

1467
01:16:00,040 --> 01:16:02,280
Speaker 1: clients or of the novelty had worn off. There was

1468
01:16:02,320 --> 01:16:04,880
Speaker 1: a hardcore audience, yes, but they could do other things

1469
01:16:04,880 --> 01:16:07,960
Speaker 1: because they knew they could always come back. So two

1470
01:16:08,040 --> 01:16:09,680
Speaker 1: things happened. We we we kind of said, well, you

1471
01:16:09,680 --> 01:16:12,360
Speaker 1: know and and and then music could periodically being a

1472
01:16:12,400 --> 01:16:14,599
Speaker 1: little you don't have Michael Jackson with a hot album

1473
01:16:14,680 --> 01:16:19,000
Speaker 1: everybody wants to see. Well, maybe we could also be

1474
01:16:19,240 --> 01:16:21,479
Speaker 1: we could be something bigger. We could be something that's

1475
01:16:21,520 --> 01:16:23,960
Speaker 1: not just about the music that will be our core thing,

1476
01:16:24,080 --> 01:16:26,320
Speaker 1: but we'll also be about a lot of the things

1477
01:16:26,320 --> 01:16:30,879
Speaker 1: that the music is about news fashion. That's how it started.

1478
01:16:30,880 --> 01:16:33,160
Speaker 1: So well, we hired Kurt Loder, We really stepped up

1479
01:16:33,160 --> 01:16:36,879
Speaker 1: our what was our news coverage. We hired Cindy Crawford

1480
01:16:36,880 --> 01:16:39,639
Speaker 1: in that house of style. These things got big numbers.

1481
01:16:39,680 --> 01:16:42,400
Speaker 1: We did the Weekend Rock. I mean, they would get

1482
01:16:42,400 --> 01:16:44,840
Speaker 1: bigger numbers in the video hours, and people would tell

1483
01:16:44,920 --> 01:16:47,320
Speaker 1: us that they liked that. Our overall ratings would go up.

1484
01:16:47,360 --> 01:16:51,120
Speaker 1: And then uh and then you know, there's sort of

1485
01:16:51,120 --> 01:16:55,639
Speaker 1: there was there was this uh ampetus from the creative

1486
01:16:55,640 --> 01:16:57,680
Speaker 1: group we had assembled to kind of stretch out and

1487
01:16:57,720 --> 01:17:00,320
Speaker 1: do more. We could do promos really well. L but

1488
01:17:00,479 --> 01:17:02,320
Speaker 1: you know, somebody came in one day so that I

1489
01:17:02,360 --> 01:17:05,800
Speaker 1: made this. I made this thing in my basement, you know,

1490
01:17:06,000 --> 01:17:08,840
Speaker 1: on a cheap cam. It's a game show called Remote Control.

1491
01:17:08,840 --> 01:17:11,599
Speaker 1: It's sort of an Irreverend's. It kind of fits MTV.

1492
01:17:11,760 --> 01:17:13,920
Speaker 1: It's gonna you know, it's Irreverend. It's a little wacky.

1493
01:17:13,960 --> 01:17:17,080
Speaker 1: It's not like any game show on television. And said, well, yeah,

1494
01:17:17,080 --> 01:17:19,240
Speaker 1: well let's let's make a few episodes and see what happened.

1495
01:17:19,240 --> 01:17:21,640
Speaker 1: So we hired Ken Ober and Colin Quinn and that

1496
01:17:21,920 --> 01:17:26,680
Speaker 1: became a hit. But that that began a process where uh,

1497
01:17:26,800 --> 01:17:29,320
Speaker 1: it's sort of like taking a heroin. You know, you

1498
01:17:29,320 --> 01:17:34,920
Speaker 1: would find that you were getting better numbers for stuff

1499
01:17:34,960 --> 01:17:37,639
Speaker 1: there wasn't music videos, but we didn't want to lose

1500
01:17:37,640 --> 01:17:41,840
Speaker 1: the music video franchise. We would then start a lot

1501
01:17:41,880 --> 01:17:45,719
Speaker 1: of genre shows like Headbanger's Ball A hundred twenty minutes

1502
01:17:45,720 --> 01:17:48,599
Speaker 1: got stepped up, where we would try and package music

1503
01:17:48,640 --> 01:17:53,400
Speaker 1: by genre. That helped a bit. Uh, but then you know,

1504
01:17:53,479 --> 01:17:55,880
Speaker 1: it kind of kept going and uh there would be

1505
01:17:55,960 --> 01:18:00,080
Speaker 1: successes and we were feeling pretty good about things. So

1506
01:18:00,160 --> 01:18:02,360
Speaker 1: we weren't getting a lot of pushback other than from

1507
01:18:02,439 --> 01:18:05,800
Speaker 1: the older original fans. The new audience. You know, the

1508
01:18:05,840 --> 01:18:09,280
Speaker 1: audience would cycle through MTV like in five years. You know,

1509
01:18:09,360 --> 01:18:11,200
Speaker 1: five years basically you had an audience that kind of

1510
01:18:11,240 --> 01:18:12,760
Speaker 1: came and left, and then you have a whole new

1511
01:18:12,760 --> 01:18:15,559
Speaker 1: group of people. So you had to continue to reinvent

1512
01:18:15,640 --> 01:18:18,880
Speaker 1: yourself for you're just gonna be you know, it's kind

1513
01:18:18,920 --> 01:18:23,160
Speaker 1: of going stale. So uh. At one point, Doug, we

1514
01:18:23,200 --> 01:18:27,439
Speaker 1: had a meeting in Doug Herz said, you know, uh,

1515
01:18:27,560 --> 01:18:29,719
Speaker 1: we should do a soap opera. You know, young people

1516
01:18:29,760 --> 01:18:31,599
Speaker 1: love to see other young people. They get a lot

1517
01:18:31,600 --> 01:18:33,320
Speaker 1: of cues from them. Would be interesting. We could do

1518
01:18:33,360 --> 01:18:35,040
Speaker 1: a soap proper. So I gave them some money to

1519
01:18:35,080 --> 01:18:37,200
Speaker 1: develop a soap proper and they came back and said,

1520
01:18:38,840 --> 01:18:40,720
Speaker 1: you know, we're gonna have to hire writers. It's more

1521
01:18:40,760 --> 01:18:45,040
Speaker 1: expensive than than uh we can we can handle. We're

1522
01:18:45,040 --> 01:18:47,240
Speaker 1: gonna have to pay writers. That's something we never really did.

1523
01:18:47,280 --> 01:18:50,799
Speaker 1: I have real writers do things for an ongoing soap opera.

1524
01:18:50,880 --> 01:18:53,960
Speaker 1: So and someone said, well, you know, we can't afford it.

1525
01:18:54,040 --> 01:18:56,080
Speaker 1: They came back, well, we're really good at post production.

1526
01:18:56,120 --> 01:18:58,160
Speaker 1: We can put stuff together. Why don't we get aloft

1527
01:18:58,200 --> 01:19:00,559
Speaker 1: and soho, stick some cameras in there of some people

1528
01:19:00,600 --> 01:19:03,200
Speaker 1: in and that's created the Real World, which was like

1529
01:19:03,240 --> 01:19:06,479
Speaker 1: the biggest thing we've done almost ever. And I think

1530
01:19:06,479 --> 01:19:10,160
Speaker 1: they're still running the damn thing. Uh So that sort

1531
01:19:10,160 --> 01:19:13,280
Speaker 1: of was the start of reality TV, which unfortunately brought

1532
01:19:13,360 --> 01:19:18,400
Speaker 1: us to The Apprentice and other bad things. But that's

1533
01:19:18,479 --> 01:19:21,520
Speaker 1: sort of how it started. We didn't out a cheapness

1534
01:19:22,040 --> 01:19:25,120
Speaker 1: and a desire to experiment. We fell into something. It

1535
01:19:25,200 --> 01:19:27,559
Speaker 1: was very successful. So once we started, it was sort

1536
01:19:27,600 --> 01:19:30,040
Speaker 1: of hard to take it off. And we tried to

1537
01:19:30,160 --> 01:19:34,400
Speaker 1: keep the music, identity and image, you know, as well

1538
01:19:34,439 --> 01:19:37,639
Speaker 1: as we could while we tried to, you know, run

1539
01:19:37,680 --> 01:19:40,200
Speaker 1: this other stuff through the schedule, put music beds under

1540
01:19:40,479 --> 01:19:42,280
Speaker 1: you know, some of these shows, so there was always

1541
01:19:42,400 --> 01:19:45,120
Speaker 1: music there, but uh, you know, it did ruffle some

1542
01:19:45,200 --> 01:19:47,040
Speaker 1: of our older fans the wrong way. So then we

1543
01:19:47,080 --> 01:19:50,080
Speaker 1: started MTV two and we said, you know, if you

1544
01:19:50,120 --> 01:19:52,280
Speaker 1: really like music videos all the time, here's the channel

1545
01:19:52,280 --> 01:19:54,160
Speaker 1: that's just gonna do that. And we had Andy Shoen

1546
01:19:54,280 --> 01:19:56,439
Speaker 1: was there. Then we we started that. It was sort

1547
01:19:56,439 --> 01:19:59,920
Speaker 1: of sort of a freeform format. Okay, a couple of

1548
01:20:00,200 --> 01:20:03,639
Speaker 1: so when you went to long form programming, was there

1549
01:20:03,640 --> 01:20:06,519
Speaker 1: any pressure from above or was it organic or you

1550
01:20:06,600 --> 01:20:10,240
Speaker 1: knew there would be pressure from above reratings and advertising.

1551
01:20:12,200 --> 01:20:16,000
Speaker 1: One of the problems, uh, when you're embedded in a

1552
01:20:16,040 --> 01:20:18,960
Speaker 1: public company and we went from me in the smallest

1553
01:20:18,960 --> 01:20:22,719
Speaker 1: division to the biggest division, was you had to continue

1554
01:20:22,720 --> 01:20:25,600
Speaker 1: to show growth. So no one was telling us what

1555
01:20:25,680 --> 01:20:27,599
Speaker 1: the program or what to do. They were just saying,

1556
01:20:28,200 --> 01:20:30,000
Speaker 1: I want you to make this amount of money by

1557
01:20:30,080 --> 01:20:32,719
Speaker 1: the end of the year. So you figure it out.

1558
01:20:32,760 --> 01:20:36,240
Speaker 1: You're so fucking smart. So we try and we try

1559
01:20:36,240 --> 01:20:38,080
Speaker 1: and figure it out, and we go, well, you know

1560
01:20:38,880 --> 01:20:41,000
Speaker 1: a lot of this is they it's gonna be hard

1561
01:20:41,040 --> 01:20:43,519
Speaker 1: really to raise our race to the cable operators becauseis

1562
01:20:43,520 --> 01:20:45,439
Speaker 1: are like long term deals. You just can't go in

1563
01:20:45,479 --> 01:20:50,040
Speaker 1: and change them. So it's the advertising marketplace. And uh,

1564
01:20:50,320 --> 01:20:52,880
Speaker 1: people seem to like some of this longer format that

1565
01:20:53,000 --> 01:20:56,080
Speaker 1: this longer format show. So we would try and do it,

1566
01:20:56,120 --> 01:20:59,160
Speaker 1: but you know, and just charge more. And then we

1567
01:20:59,160 --> 01:21:01,840
Speaker 1: would add in the the MTV Video Music Awards would

1568
01:21:01,840 --> 01:21:04,120
Speaker 1: make us seventy five million dollars a night. I mean,

1569
01:21:04,160 --> 01:21:06,559
Speaker 1: it was huge. So then we said, well, why don't

1570
01:21:06,600 --> 01:21:09,160
Speaker 1: we do a movie awards? You know, So then you

1571
01:21:09,240 --> 01:21:12,639
Speaker 1: start going in the the the uh, the rabbit hole

1572
01:21:12,680 --> 01:21:15,719
Speaker 1: of award shows and try and do them in your way,

1573
01:21:15,840 --> 01:21:18,560
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, I got tired of going to

1574
01:21:18,600 --> 01:21:20,960
Speaker 1: award shows, Bob. I'll tell you I've seen my share

1575
01:21:20,960 --> 01:21:24,759
Speaker 1: of them. Okay, you talked about the five years cycle

1576
01:21:25,000 --> 01:21:27,920
Speaker 1: in retrospect, you can certainly see it that way. But

1577
01:21:28,040 --> 01:21:31,120
Speaker 1: from the other side of the screen, it was shocking

1578
01:21:31,160 --> 01:21:35,599
Speaker 1: when the original VJs were canned. Whose decision was that?

1579
01:21:36,000 --> 01:21:38,360
Speaker 1: And was that conscious We're gonna stay with the demo

1580
01:21:38,800 --> 01:21:41,640
Speaker 1: as opposed to grow with our audience. How did that

1581
01:21:41,680 --> 01:21:45,840
Speaker 1: come about? That was my decision, and I had to

1582
01:21:45,920 --> 01:21:49,000
Speaker 1: overrule people who had built up relationships with Martha Quinn

1583
01:21:49,040 --> 01:21:53,280
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, and and uh others. But I

1584
01:21:53,320 --> 01:21:55,599
Speaker 1: decided that, you know, we just needed a new phase.

1585
01:21:55,640 --> 01:21:58,040
Speaker 1: These people are old, and there's the people want to see.

1586
01:21:58,080 --> 01:22:01,040
Speaker 1: If we really think we're an work for young people

1587
01:22:01,080 --> 01:22:03,360
Speaker 1: eighteen to twenty four, they're gonna want to see people

1588
01:22:03,360 --> 01:22:05,640
Speaker 1: who look to be approximately their age. That's gonna make

1589
01:22:05,680 --> 01:22:07,639
Speaker 1: them feel better about it. It It isn't like my big

1590
01:22:07,680 --> 01:22:12,920
Speaker 1: brothers MTV. So that's what we did. There was no pressure. Again,

1591
01:22:13,120 --> 01:22:16,320
Speaker 1: I would say one of the great things about running

1592
01:22:16,320 --> 01:22:19,280
Speaker 1: that company all those years was I didn't really get

1593
01:22:19,280 --> 01:22:22,960
Speaker 1: any pressure about programmers. Just deliver the numbers, and we

1594
01:22:23,080 --> 01:22:27,400
Speaker 1: always did and they left us alone. Okay, was it

1595
01:22:27,560 --> 01:22:29,840
Speaker 1: like you were lying in bed one night and you said, God,

1596
01:22:29,880 --> 01:22:31,720
Speaker 1: I got a can the VJs. I had come up

1597
01:22:31,720 --> 01:22:34,880
Speaker 1: with the idea. Well, I don't know if I was

1598
01:22:34,960 --> 01:22:37,120
Speaker 1: lying in bed, but it hadn't crossed my mind. I mean,

1599
01:22:37,200 --> 01:22:38,840
Speaker 1: one or two of them might have been annoying, and

1600
01:22:38,840 --> 01:22:40,760
Speaker 1: you say, you know, we're we we we gotta like

1601
01:22:40,880 --> 01:22:44,120
Speaker 1: look at this thing holistically. We should be changing the

1602
01:22:44,280 --> 01:22:46,600
Speaker 1: on air. Look, we should be changing the VJs. We

1603
01:22:46,640 --> 01:22:50,360
Speaker 1: should be changing the shows. We we we gotta reinvent

1604
01:22:50,439 --> 01:22:53,840
Speaker 1: this thing continually. And uh, I don't know when that

1605
01:22:53,880 --> 01:22:56,679
Speaker 1: epiphany came, but and we didn't do them all at once,

1606
01:22:56,800 --> 01:22:59,040
Speaker 1: but they kind of filtered away within a six month

1607
01:22:59,040 --> 01:23:04,439
Speaker 1: period and we hired other people. But I uh, and

1608
01:23:04,520 --> 01:23:06,160
Speaker 1: I know I see them all because they're all on

1609
01:23:06,680 --> 01:23:09,960
Speaker 1: they're all on serious radio. Now I went CHATL or another.

1610
01:23:10,000 --> 01:23:15,400
Speaker 1: So it's great here in their voices. Okay, under your management,

1611
01:23:16,160 --> 01:23:19,559
Speaker 1: MTV spread all over the world. I always figured that

1612
01:23:19,640 --> 01:23:22,679
Speaker 1: was because of your experience all over the world. Whose

1613
01:23:22,720 --> 01:23:27,640
Speaker 1: decision and what degree were you involved? Well, that was

1614
01:23:29,520 --> 01:23:33,200
Speaker 1: we did a joint venture in the UK for empty

1615
01:23:33,240 --> 01:23:37,800
Speaker 1: a thing called MTV Europe, and I uh, I had

1616
01:23:38,200 --> 01:23:41,920
Speaker 1: great confidence that I could go anywhere, that we could

1617
01:23:41,920 --> 01:23:44,840
Speaker 1: go anywhere, that we could go do business anywhere. At

1618
01:23:44,840 --> 01:23:48,400
Speaker 1: the same time, something important was happening, which is all

1619
01:23:48,439 --> 01:23:51,400
Speaker 1: of these European countries and then subsequently in Asia and

1620
01:23:51,479 --> 01:23:56,479
Speaker 1: Latin America, they were deregulating their television structure. Most of

1621
01:23:56,479 --> 01:23:59,599
Speaker 1: these countries had stayed owned television maybe one independent channel,

1622
01:23:59,600 --> 01:24:02,760
Speaker 1: and they were all terrestrial. Basically, they weren't there. They

1623
01:24:02,800 --> 01:24:07,000
Speaker 1: were very little cable or satellite. But they began to

1624
01:24:07,320 --> 01:24:09,800
Speaker 1: sort of open the doors and let private companies come

1625
01:24:09,840 --> 01:24:11,920
Speaker 1: in and run TV networks. Now, of course you've got

1626
01:24:11,960 --> 01:24:15,160
Speaker 1: Start TV and Asia or be sky b R Sky TV,

1627
01:24:15,280 --> 01:24:17,400
Speaker 1: you know. But in the early days we were a

1628
01:24:17,439 --> 01:24:21,640
Speaker 1: first mover, and um we were able to kind of

1629
01:24:22,360 --> 01:24:25,439
Speaker 1: chase that around from content to kinda. I really wanted

1630
01:24:25,439 --> 01:24:27,400
Speaker 1: to go back to Asia after we got set up

1631
01:24:27,400 --> 01:24:29,320
Speaker 1: in Europe. And when we went to Europe, by the way,

1632
01:24:29,360 --> 01:24:32,760
Speaker 1: the record companies are go, fuck you. We we don't

1633
01:24:32,800 --> 01:24:35,200
Speaker 1: need any Americans coming over here telling us what to do.

1634
01:24:35,280 --> 01:24:37,519
Speaker 1: And I say, this isn't gonna be the American MTV.

1635
01:24:37,600 --> 01:24:40,120
Speaker 1: It's gonna be run by Europeans. Wenna have Dutch people

1636
01:24:40,200 --> 01:24:42,800
Speaker 1: on and it's it's gonna be different. You're gonna like it,

1637
01:24:42,840 --> 01:24:45,280
Speaker 1: and no, no, no, no, no, no no. And it

1638
01:24:45,320 --> 01:24:47,040
Speaker 1: was harder to deal with the labels there because they

1639
01:24:47,040 --> 01:24:49,519
Speaker 1: all could legally get together against you. But we had

1640
01:24:49,560 --> 01:24:51,080
Speaker 1: on the air and we did all right, and finally

1641
01:24:51,439 --> 01:24:54,120
Speaker 1: they realized this was a good tool in their toolbox

1642
01:24:54,160 --> 01:24:57,600
Speaker 1: for promotion. But I wanted to go to Asia and

1643
01:24:57,600 --> 01:25:01,559
Speaker 1: and this amazing thing just got Richard Lee in Hong

1644
01:25:01,640 --> 01:25:05,479
Speaker 1: Kong launched this thing called Star TV, and he wanted.

1645
01:25:05,520 --> 01:25:07,840
Speaker 1: He was gonna put five channels up on a satellite,

1646
01:25:08,200 --> 01:25:10,400
Speaker 1: you know, to a small dish satellite that you could

1647
01:25:10,400 --> 01:25:13,360
Speaker 1: pick up, you know what they call at this time

1648
01:25:13,360 --> 01:25:15,559
Speaker 1: a high band satellite. It would the footprint cover all

1649
01:25:15,560 --> 01:25:18,280
Speaker 1: the way from Taiwan to like, you know, Saudi Arabia.

1650
01:25:18,600 --> 01:25:21,320
Speaker 1: The same signal would come down. So he got the BBC,

1651
01:25:21,840 --> 01:25:26,760
Speaker 1: a couple of Chinese channels and uh MTV and we

1652
01:25:26,760 --> 01:25:28,840
Speaker 1: we were able to get a licensing deal. So we

1653
01:25:28,840 --> 01:25:31,080
Speaker 1: were on there. And then the weirdest thing happened. Star

1654
01:25:31,200 --> 01:25:34,559
Speaker 1: TV number one was just a smash. People have been

1655
01:25:35,080 --> 01:25:38,040
Speaker 1: strangled with no television choices all their lives, you know,

1656
01:25:38,080 --> 01:25:40,160
Speaker 1: watching one or two channels if they even had that.

1657
01:25:40,479 --> 01:25:42,720
Speaker 1: And now if someone had a satellite dish, there was

1658
01:25:42,760 --> 01:25:44,559
Speaker 1: a whole new world open and up to them, even

1659
01:25:44,600 --> 01:25:46,519
Speaker 1: if it was only five channels and they didn't speak

1660
01:25:46,600 --> 01:25:49,799
Speaker 1: Kanthonese or Mandarin. But we would get all of a sudden,

1661
01:25:49,800 --> 01:25:52,840
Speaker 1: we a New York Times reporter would be in a

1662
01:25:53,880 --> 01:25:56,680
Speaker 1: in a cab of the Karin guerrillas on the Burmese

1663
01:25:56,840 --> 01:26:00,240
Speaker 1: Thai border and he would go to the Burmese camp

1664
01:26:00,240 --> 01:26:02,000
Speaker 1: and they have a satellite dish and all these guys

1665
01:26:02,000 --> 01:26:06,559
Speaker 1: are sitting around watching like hip hop videos and he said,

1666
01:26:06,600 --> 01:26:10,840
Speaker 1: this is like bizarre, and MTV became like a verb

1667
01:26:10,920 --> 01:26:13,719
Speaker 1: in their world, and you know, so we we gotta

1668
01:26:13,800 --> 01:26:17,479
Speaker 1: Then Murdoch bought Star TV, and I decided, we don't

1669
01:26:17,479 --> 01:26:20,280
Speaker 1: want to be doing a licensing deal. Let's start our

1670
01:26:20,320 --> 01:26:23,040
Speaker 1: own operated things. So we got a divorce from Murdoch

1671
01:26:23,080 --> 01:26:25,920
Speaker 1: and started from scratch and built up an appreciable business

1672
01:26:25,960 --> 01:26:28,520
Speaker 1: in Indian all the major territories, which was a blasphemy

1673
01:26:28,520 --> 01:26:30,960
Speaker 1: about to be back. And you know, we'd always go

1674
01:26:31,000 --> 01:26:32,919
Speaker 1: out on trips, and you know, we moved our headquarters

1675
01:26:32,960 --> 01:26:35,720
Speaker 1: to Singapore. I'd always tack on an adventure. After we

1676
01:26:35,600 --> 01:26:38,360
Speaker 1: were doing some business and met the guys in the

1677
01:26:38,439 --> 01:26:42,120
Speaker 1: music business in Asia. They were wild. I mean they

1678
01:26:42,640 --> 01:26:47,679
Speaker 1: those guys, they were something. But uh so we set

1679
01:26:47,720 --> 01:26:50,920
Speaker 1: up we were the first worldwide network. MTV was. I mean,

1680
01:26:51,000 --> 01:26:53,040
Speaker 1: I think and I don't know how much we used

1681
01:26:53,040 --> 01:26:55,760
Speaker 1: out a hundred networks at one point. And then we

1682
01:26:55,800 --> 01:26:57,720
Speaker 1: did the same thing in Latin America and then what

1683
01:26:57,960 --> 01:27:00,240
Speaker 1: what the greatest thing was we would have tried through

1684
01:27:00,320 --> 01:27:02,519
Speaker 1: these creative people from all these countries and then we

1685
01:27:02,560 --> 01:27:06,680
Speaker 1: could Ingram intermingle them and move them around. And I

1686
01:27:06,720 --> 01:27:09,240
Speaker 1: missed all I miss all that, but that's still that.

1687
01:27:09,320 --> 01:27:12,799
Speaker 1: The last one was Africa, and I go to Africa

1688
01:27:12,840 --> 01:27:15,800
Speaker 1: a lot now and MTV bas it plays all music.

1689
01:27:15,840 --> 01:27:20,240
Speaker 1: It's all hip hop, and it's the most powerful music

1690
01:27:20,280 --> 01:27:24,519
Speaker 1: force on the continent of Africa. Is MTV to this day? Wow?

1691
01:27:24,560 --> 01:27:28,479
Speaker 1: And we're all these outlets profitable? They are now. They

1692
01:27:28,520 --> 01:27:32,760
Speaker 1: weren't in the beginning, but they became profitable pretty quickly. Okay,

1693
01:27:32,800 --> 01:27:39,639
Speaker 1: so certainly from six on, maybe the Internet starts creeping in.

1694
01:27:40,520 --> 01:27:42,800
Speaker 1: Now you and me have a conversation at the time

1695
01:27:42,840 --> 01:27:46,000
Speaker 1: when everybody is saying they've gotta play more videos, you say,

1696
01:27:46,160 --> 01:27:49,120
Speaker 1: we're never gonna play videos because it's becoming on demand item.

1697
01:27:49,320 --> 01:27:53,720
Speaker 1: You were way ahead of the marketplace personally. However, in retrospect,

1698
01:27:53,800 --> 01:27:58,679
Speaker 1: one can say that MTV missed the Internet. So give

1699
01:27:58,760 --> 01:28:01,840
Speaker 1: us those two takes. Well, you're exactly right. I mean

1700
01:28:01,960 --> 01:28:03,840
Speaker 1: they came along and you can get all this music

1701
01:28:03,880 --> 01:28:05,800
Speaker 1: on demand. I mean, who needs to sit around and

1702
01:28:05,800 --> 01:28:07,680
Speaker 1: wait for Nirvan? I just you know, hit it and

1703
01:28:07,680 --> 01:28:09,200
Speaker 1: it comes up. I can watch it ten times in

1704
01:28:09,240 --> 01:28:13,800
Speaker 1: a row. The problem was the labels, and I had

1705
01:28:13,800 --> 01:28:16,360
Speaker 1: this conversation with Bob Morgado took me up to his office.

1706
01:28:16,360 --> 01:28:17,800
Speaker 1: I went to his office. I thought he was going

1707
01:28:17,840 --> 01:28:20,040
Speaker 1: to congratulate me for the quarter of a million dollars

1708
01:28:20,040 --> 01:28:23,479
Speaker 1: of retail sales of billion dollars of unplugged records. But no,

1709
01:28:23,600 --> 01:28:26,000
Speaker 1: he was to tell me fuck you. He'd already fired

1710
01:28:26,040 --> 01:28:31,200
Speaker 1: Moawston and all these people who we loved. Uh, you're

1711
01:28:31,200 --> 01:28:34,040
Speaker 1: not gonna get online. We're not giving you the rights.

1712
01:28:34,800 --> 01:28:38,080
Speaker 1: So MTV we were all set up with to just

1713
01:28:38,160 --> 01:28:41,200
Speaker 1: move our entire music video library online on demand on

1714
01:28:41,200 --> 01:28:44,280
Speaker 1: our websites, and the record companies wouldn't give it to us.

1715
01:28:44,280 --> 01:28:46,640
Speaker 1: They give it to launch, they give it to some

1716
01:28:46,680 --> 01:28:48,840
Speaker 1: new people. We we we don't want to be under

1717
01:28:48,880 --> 01:28:52,120
Speaker 1: the thumb of MTV and create like another monster who's

1718
01:28:52,120 --> 01:28:55,200
Speaker 1: building a business on our backs. Let's go to other people.

1719
01:28:55,320 --> 01:28:59,280
Speaker 1: So MTV was sort of locked out in a way,

1720
01:28:59,800 --> 01:29:02,880
Speaker 1: and that really allowed other people to come in and

1721
01:29:02,880 --> 01:29:06,960
Speaker 1: do it, and uh, you know it, really it really

1722
01:29:07,120 --> 01:29:10,639
Speaker 1: was a monkey wrench in our ability to increase our

1723
01:29:10,720 --> 01:29:13,000
Speaker 1: digital footprint and move into the digital age. Because our

1724
01:29:13,000 --> 01:29:14,679
Speaker 1: audience that like the canary in the colon, and they're

1725
01:29:14,680 --> 01:29:18,360
Speaker 1: the first people to migrate the digital um. Yeah, that

1726
01:29:18,439 --> 01:29:21,040
Speaker 1: was tough news, and we could not get that to happen.

1727
01:29:22,200 --> 01:29:24,120
Speaker 1: We we wanted to, Laura knows, I mean it would

1728
01:29:24,120 --> 01:29:26,559
Speaker 1: be an idiot that wouldn't want to do that, but

1729
01:29:26,800 --> 01:29:29,639
Speaker 1: they wouldn't give us the rights. Now, but you did

1730
01:29:29,680 --> 01:29:32,040
Speaker 1: have a presence online and certainly about turn of the

1731
01:29:32,080 --> 01:29:36,679
Speaker 1: century it was not an insignificant audience. Was basically without

1732
01:29:36,760 --> 01:29:39,880
Speaker 1: videos you couldn't make it or was there another way

1733
01:29:39,880 --> 01:29:41,639
Speaker 1: to spin it so that you could have had a business.

1734
01:29:41,760 --> 01:29:45,040
Speaker 1: Well you could have used some short like needle drop

1735
01:29:45,160 --> 01:29:47,800
Speaker 1: lengths of music beds on things, but you know, we

1736
01:29:47,800 --> 01:29:51,799
Speaker 1: could we had we would have news and information about music.

1737
01:29:52,000 --> 01:29:55,559
Speaker 1: We had tour dates, we had everything about music, but

1738
01:29:55,720 --> 01:29:58,040
Speaker 1: the music. You know, it's like a head shop in

1739
01:29:58,080 --> 01:30:00,680
Speaker 1: the in the set in the sixties, they sold the

1740
01:30:00,680 --> 01:30:04,519
Speaker 1: papers and the pipes, but they didn't sell you the pot.

1741
01:30:05,880 --> 01:30:09,760
Speaker 1: We had everything but the music. Basically we tried to

1742
01:30:09,840 --> 01:30:12,280
Speaker 1: skirt it in circum benefit we'd always be busted, you know,

1743
01:30:12,400 --> 01:30:16,040
Speaker 1: and they were. They were nasty. I mean, uh, you know,

1744
01:30:16,080 --> 01:30:18,519
Speaker 1: I was like a profit center for them busting down

1745
01:30:18,800 --> 01:30:22,280
Speaker 1: you know, people trying to take their music online. So

1746
01:30:22,880 --> 01:30:26,240
Speaker 1: you started thirty k you know, the old Viacom is

1747
01:30:26,280 --> 01:30:29,599
Speaker 1: sold to Sumner. At what point does everybody start making

1748
01:30:29,600 --> 01:30:33,160
Speaker 1: more money and are you negotiating for money or is

1749
01:30:33,200 --> 01:30:40,000
Speaker 1: it take it or leave it? Well, Sumner bought the

1750
01:30:40,000 --> 01:30:43,960
Speaker 1: company seven he bought it from these guys of the

1751
01:30:44,000 --> 01:30:48,760
Speaker 1: prior Viacom. He installed Frank Beyondi, who made me the

1752
01:30:48,800 --> 01:30:55,000
Speaker 1: CEO right away, and uh, he offered me a pile

1753
01:30:55,040 --> 01:30:56,720
Speaker 1: of money that was more than I had every I

1754
01:30:56,720 --> 01:30:58,639
Speaker 1: didn't I just I didn't even ask for it. He said,

1755
01:30:58,640 --> 01:31:00,320
Speaker 1: they're gonna give you this, and it was and like

1756
01:31:01,040 --> 01:31:04,040
Speaker 1: box car numbers like we see today. But from then on,

1757
01:31:04,160 --> 01:31:10,640
Speaker 1: as these companies in cable became these money machines, and

1758
01:31:10,680 --> 01:31:14,600
Speaker 1: you're embedded in these public companies, Uh, there was a

1759
01:31:14,680 --> 01:31:17,000
Speaker 1: game going on, like the Alan Grubin's of the world

1760
01:31:17,000 --> 01:31:20,600
Speaker 1: would be negotiating UH employees contracts at various companies, and

1761
01:31:20,640 --> 01:31:22,920
Speaker 1: they'd always say, well, we're gonna what are they paying

1762
01:31:22,960 --> 01:31:26,160
Speaker 1: at Disney, what are they paying at uh A Universal?

1763
01:31:26,439 --> 01:31:30,360
Speaker 1: And you would find out that the pay levels, like

1764
01:31:30,439 --> 01:31:32,840
Speaker 1: even in the record companies, were really high, So all

1765
01:31:32,840 --> 01:31:35,280
Speaker 1: of a sudden people could have their We would say, well,

1766
01:31:36,000 --> 01:31:38,160
Speaker 1: we're making more money than these guys in the record

1767
01:31:38,160 --> 01:31:39,960
Speaker 1: companies we're making, you know, we want to be paid

1768
01:31:39,960 --> 01:31:44,040
Speaker 1: on an equivalent basis. And then it was like someone

1769
01:31:44,080 --> 01:31:48,240
Speaker 1: would move up the uh, you know, move up the ladder.

1770
01:31:48,479 --> 01:31:51,519
Speaker 1: And then stock options became a big thing. Uh and

1771
01:31:51,560 --> 01:31:53,320
Speaker 1: people were being granted a lot of those, and it

1772
01:31:53,360 --> 01:31:57,360
Speaker 1: was always you were getting compared to players in similar

1773
01:31:57,400 --> 01:32:01,080
Speaker 1: type of companies. And uh, all of a sudden, money

1774
01:32:01,120 --> 01:32:08,320
Speaker 1: became everybody was rolling in potential salaries and bonuses and

1775
01:32:08,400 --> 01:32:10,519
Speaker 1: stock options, and it really changed the game. I mean,

1776
01:32:10,560 --> 01:32:13,559
Speaker 1: I gotta say, no one really came to work where

1777
01:32:13,600 --> 01:32:16,120
Speaker 1: we work for the money. You can get paid a

1778
01:32:16,200 --> 01:32:18,400
Speaker 1: lot more somewhere else for a lot fewer hours. It mean,

1779
01:32:18,400 --> 01:32:21,360
Speaker 1: it's almost like a lifestyle decision. But then money kind

1780
01:32:21,360 --> 01:32:24,280
Speaker 1: of came in, and uh, you know, you could argue

1781
01:32:24,360 --> 01:32:27,439
Speaker 1: kind of spoiled things a bit. I mean, it was

1782
01:32:27,520 --> 01:32:31,360
Speaker 1: nice to get it, Okay, all the I don't have

1783
01:32:32,160 --> 01:32:34,120
Speaker 1: I don't have a history of working for the corporation.

1784
01:32:34,240 --> 01:32:36,960
Speaker 1: But from my seat, my observer, you're the best corporate

1785
01:32:37,000 --> 01:32:41,280
Speaker 1: manager I've ever encountered in that you saw yourself as

1786
01:32:41,320 --> 01:32:43,960
Speaker 1: relatively equal to the people under you. You would not

1787
01:32:44,080 --> 01:32:46,559
Speaker 1: make a decision, you would never say to Judy, you

1788
01:32:46,600 --> 01:32:49,000
Speaker 1: have to put this. You have to do that because

1789
01:32:49,000 --> 01:32:52,040
Speaker 1: someone gave you a call. How and where did you

1790
01:32:52,080 --> 01:32:56,360
Speaker 1: develop your management style? Well, you're nice of you to

1791
01:32:56,439 --> 01:33:02,679
Speaker 1: say that it was I figured I was a team player.

1792
01:33:03,160 --> 01:33:05,240
Speaker 1: I had a team of people I trusted. People don't

1793
01:33:05,280 --> 01:33:07,280
Speaker 1: like to be if you have good people, they don't

1794
01:33:07,280 --> 01:33:11,400
Speaker 1: want to be overmanaged. And you know, there were times

1795
01:33:11,400 --> 01:33:15,000
Speaker 1: when I would call up and say, by the way,

1796
01:33:15,040 --> 01:33:17,640
Speaker 1: why aren't we playing guns and roases? I mean, what

1797
01:33:17,720 --> 01:33:19,680
Speaker 1: kind of idiots are you people? And this thing is

1798
01:33:19,760 --> 01:33:22,080
Speaker 1: you know, welcome to the jungle. You guys passed on that.

1799
01:33:22,560 --> 01:33:25,400
Speaker 1: I mean I would, I would, but it would be

1800
01:33:25,479 --> 01:33:28,000
Speaker 1: rare that I would really interfere too much with with

1801
01:33:28,040 --> 01:33:31,120
Speaker 1: specific programming choices. I would green light shows they wanted

1802
01:33:31,160 --> 01:33:35,360
Speaker 1: to do, and I would give advice, but I I uh,

1803
01:33:36,840 --> 01:33:39,200
Speaker 1: I would defer to people who I thought maybe knew

1804
01:33:39,200 --> 01:33:40,719
Speaker 1: more about it than me. I didn't want to step

1805
01:33:40,720 --> 01:33:43,120
Speaker 1: on their toes. I wanted more of a collegial atmosphere

1806
01:33:43,600 --> 01:33:45,760
Speaker 1: and as long as they were winning and doing okay,

1807
01:33:45,800 --> 01:33:47,800
Speaker 1: I mean I had to balance. You know, the people

1808
01:33:47,800 --> 01:33:50,400
Speaker 1: from Nickelodeon were very different from the people at MTV.

1809
01:33:50,560 --> 01:33:53,040
Speaker 1: There was all these different, like little mini silos of

1810
01:33:53,120 --> 01:33:56,360
Speaker 1: this place. The people at Comedy Central were different. I

1811
01:33:56,400 --> 01:33:58,200
Speaker 1: tried not you know, you can't when you get to

1812
01:33:58,240 --> 01:34:01,960
Speaker 1: a certain size, you can't micromana everything. So I would

1813
01:34:01,960 --> 01:34:04,080
Speaker 1: defer to people who worked for me and try to

1814
01:34:04,160 --> 01:34:08,599
Speaker 1: keep I tried to keep it egilitarian, and I most

1815
01:34:08,600 --> 01:34:11,760
Speaker 1: of all wanted to keep it fun. Okay, but from

1816
01:34:11,760 --> 01:34:14,679
Speaker 1: an outside perspective, and I've observed this, if someone said

1817
01:34:14,720 --> 01:34:17,400
Speaker 1: I'm gonna call Tom Freston to get it on or

1818
01:34:17,439 --> 01:34:21,680
Speaker 1: to do me a favor, that's not a game you played. No,

1819
01:34:22,080 --> 01:34:25,960
Speaker 1: with rare exceptions, very rare exceptions. Yeah, Because sometimes you

1820
01:34:25,960 --> 01:34:30,880
Speaker 1: call up and say, David Geffen just called me and

1821
01:34:31,720 --> 01:34:35,599
Speaker 1: he asked the reasonable question, you know, what's the rationalelle

1822
01:34:35,640 --> 01:34:38,000
Speaker 1: behind this? And they might say, well, I don't know

1823
01:34:38,040 --> 01:34:41,200
Speaker 1: if there was much, Yeah, maybe you want to take

1824
01:34:41,200 --> 01:34:45,040
Speaker 1: another look at something. And they might say yeah, or

1825
01:34:45,120 --> 01:34:47,040
Speaker 1: tell David Giffen the ghost of it, We're not gonna

1826
01:34:47,080 --> 01:34:49,439
Speaker 1: do it. But you know sometimes I mean I would

1827
01:34:49,479 --> 01:34:51,479
Speaker 1: get those calls, Bob. They would come in night, day,

1828
01:34:51,520 --> 01:34:53,880
Speaker 1: they would they have a whole bank of people calling

1829
01:34:53,880 --> 01:34:56,360
Speaker 1: people at MTV trying to move it around because we

1830
01:34:56,360 --> 01:35:00,000
Speaker 1: were in that you know, like sort of singular position. Uh.

1831
01:35:00,040 --> 01:35:02,840
Speaker 1: And I was always of the I said, you know,

1832
01:35:02,960 --> 01:35:05,240
Speaker 1: these people are our partners in a way, and we

1833
01:35:05,360 --> 01:35:08,240
Speaker 1: gotta there's gotta be a little give and take. There's

1834
01:35:08,240 --> 01:35:10,280
Speaker 1: gonna be a bit of give and take in our relationship.

1835
01:35:10,360 --> 01:35:13,920
Speaker 1: We can't just we can't just say, you know, take

1836
01:35:13,960 --> 01:35:16,599
Speaker 1: it or leave it all the time with everything. Uh,

1837
01:35:16,640 --> 01:35:20,240
Speaker 1: they're predisposed not to like us, So let's try and

1838
01:35:20,280 --> 01:35:22,960
Speaker 1: take a little bit of edge off that. By nature,

1839
01:35:23,240 --> 01:35:26,519
Speaker 1: I try and be a collegial person and not a

1840
01:35:26,640 --> 01:35:29,280
Speaker 1: dictatorial thing. I like to thinking of business like that.

1841
01:35:29,680 --> 01:35:33,439
Speaker 1: Decisions kind of come up from the bottom rather than

1842
01:35:33,800 --> 01:35:37,000
Speaker 1: you know, being like some authoritarian on top, which you

1843
01:35:37,040 --> 01:35:40,439
Speaker 1: know at certain scale is unmanageable anyway, unless you have

1844
01:35:40,479 --> 01:35:44,360
Speaker 1: a really small country company. Okay, So tell us about

1845
01:35:44,400 --> 01:35:47,440
Speaker 1: the switch to running all of Viacom and your experience

1846
01:35:47,520 --> 01:35:51,800
Speaker 1: doing that. Well. I was sitting in my office one day,

1847
01:35:51,840 --> 01:35:54,840
Speaker 1: perfectly happy. My phone rings. It's some to Redstone, he says,

1848
01:35:56,760 --> 01:35:58,519
Speaker 1: come up and see me in the Carlisle Hotel. It's

1849
01:35:58,520 --> 01:36:01,280
Speaker 1: a spring afternoon. So I getting a taxi. I go

1850
01:36:01,360 --> 01:36:04,400
Speaker 1: up to the Carlisle Hotel. I'm thinking, you know, Marilyn

1851
01:36:04,400 --> 01:36:06,639
Speaker 1: Monroe and Jack Kennedy. You know, he had an apartment there.

1852
01:36:06,680 --> 01:36:08,360
Speaker 1: It really wasn't a great apartment. It would looks like

1853
01:36:08,400 --> 01:36:11,559
Speaker 1: a corporate apartment. So you never know what redstone you're

1854
01:36:11,560 --> 01:36:13,160
Speaker 1: gonna get. He could be the screamer or the really

1855
01:36:13,240 --> 01:36:14,880
Speaker 1: nice guy and and the really he says. You know,

1856
01:36:14,960 --> 01:36:20,360
Speaker 1: I'm males not doing good. I'm thinking to myself, males

1857
01:36:20,400 --> 01:36:23,439
Speaker 1: doing great. We're like in an all time high. Gotta

1858
01:36:23,479 --> 01:36:25,680
Speaker 1: get rid of mail and uh and I would like

1859
01:36:25,760 --> 01:36:28,519
Speaker 1: you to be the new CEO of IM. And I'm like,

1860
01:36:28,560 --> 01:36:31,679
Speaker 1: oh fuck. I had just been joking with Jeff Bukas

1861
01:36:31,680 --> 01:36:34,479
Speaker 1: about this day before. One day we're gonna we have

1862
01:36:34,520 --> 01:36:36,280
Speaker 1: the best job running HBO and MT be the best

1863
01:36:36,320 --> 01:36:37,720
Speaker 1: job in New York City. On day it's gonna be over.

1864
01:36:37,720 --> 01:36:40,000
Speaker 1: They're gonna ask us to run these fucking companies. So

1865
01:36:40,120 --> 01:36:43,479
Speaker 1: now the ask comes in and and I go, oh god,

1866
01:36:43,920 --> 01:36:46,200
Speaker 1: how can I? Uh well, I don't really want to

1867
01:36:46,200 --> 01:36:47,760
Speaker 1: work for this man. That's gonna be gonna take me

1868
01:36:47,800 --> 01:36:51,120
Speaker 1: away from everything I love. You know, why can't I

1869
01:36:51,120 --> 01:36:53,160
Speaker 1: be like Lauren Michael's and just keep the same job

1870
01:36:53,200 --> 01:36:55,920
Speaker 1: forever and and and and and But you can't, So

1871
01:36:56,040 --> 01:36:58,960
Speaker 1: I told him. I asked him some questions. I said,

1872
01:36:59,000 --> 01:37:00,920
Speaker 1: let me think about it, give me twenty four hours.

1873
01:37:00,920 --> 01:37:03,280
Speaker 1: I'm so flattered that you thought of me somewhere. Let

1874
01:37:03,320 --> 01:37:04,400
Speaker 1: me think about it. So I went home. I said,

1875
01:37:04,400 --> 01:37:06,720
Speaker 1: I gotta talk about it with my wife. Who could

1876
01:37:06,800 --> 01:37:09,280
Speaker 1: you know, couldn't have cared. So I thought about it,

1877
01:37:09,320 --> 01:37:10,719
Speaker 1: and I said, oh God, I gotta take it, because

1878
01:37:10,720 --> 01:37:12,200
Speaker 1: if I don't take it, he's gonna give it to Less,

1879
01:37:12,200 --> 01:37:14,080
Speaker 1: and Less will fire me. And that's it, man, at

1880
01:37:14,080 --> 01:37:16,720
Speaker 1: the end of my career. And maybe maybe you know what,

1881
01:37:16,960 --> 01:37:18,920
Speaker 1: it'll be great. It'll be kind of good. I can

1882
01:37:19,000 --> 01:37:22,000
Speaker 1: learn some new tricks. I'm gonna be a public company CEO.

1883
01:37:22,200 --> 01:37:24,720
Speaker 1: It's like the gold ring. I got the gold ring.

1884
01:37:24,800 --> 01:37:28,000
Speaker 1: So I the next day I go to meet him.

1885
01:37:28,040 --> 01:37:30,559
Speaker 1: He's in radio set. He's in the Cargie hall. Uh.

1886
01:37:32,400 --> 01:37:36,479
Speaker 1: The CBS is having their upfront presentation. So he's got

1887
01:37:36,479 --> 01:37:38,160
Speaker 1: a seat next to him. It's on the aisle. I

1888
01:37:38,200 --> 01:37:41,160
Speaker 1: sit down next to him and he's watching the upfront

1889
01:37:41,200 --> 01:37:42,880
Speaker 1: and I said, Summer, I thought about it all night.

1890
01:37:42,920 --> 01:37:45,800
Speaker 1: I would love this job. I'd love to take the job.

1891
01:37:46,560 --> 01:37:48,720
Speaker 1: And he goes, it's too late. I go, what do

1892
01:37:48,800 --> 01:37:51,360
Speaker 1: you mean it's too LATEA I gave it to him,

1893
01:37:51,439 --> 01:37:54,400
Speaker 1: I go Less, He gave it to Less. You told him?

1894
01:37:54,479 --> 01:37:56,200
Speaker 1: I said, wait twenty four hours, it's only been like

1895
01:37:56,240 --> 01:37:59,400
Speaker 1: seventeen hours. You can't do that. It's as well he's had.

1896
01:37:59,439 --> 01:38:01,519
Speaker 1: I said, well, you into that to me? You know,

1897
01:38:01,680 --> 01:38:03,600
Speaker 1: fuck you. That's bad. That's bad. I got up and

1898
01:38:03,600 --> 01:38:05,240
Speaker 1: I sort of left. I said, you made a you know,

1899
01:38:05,280 --> 01:38:06,920
Speaker 1: we had a deal. Do you want me? You're not.

1900
01:38:08,160 --> 01:38:10,680
Speaker 1: So then like the next day he calls me and

1901
01:38:10,680 --> 01:38:13,439
Speaker 1: he goes time. I gave it to Less, I told Less.

1902
01:38:13,479 --> 01:38:16,519
Speaker 1: You know it's hard to take out. Can't be an

1903
01:38:16,520 --> 01:38:18,920
Speaker 1: Indian giver. So how about this, how about we split

1904
01:38:18,960 --> 01:38:24,160
Speaker 1: it and you unless become cos. I'll stay at CEO

1905
01:38:24,280 --> 01:38:27,599
Speaker 1: and you unless run it as co chief operating officers

1906
01:38:27,680 --> 01:38:30,559
Speaker 1: or whatever. So I said okay, And we did that

1907
01:38:30,600 --> 01:38:35,360
Speaker 1: for two years. Okay, but at that time responsibilities were divided.

1908
01:38:36,200 --> 01:38:38,599
Speaker 1: He was CBS, you were paramount, so he had an

1909
01:38:38,600 --> 01:38:41,200
Speaker 1: equal title, but you had different purviews. Yeah, but there

1910
01:38:41,280 --> 01:38:43,599
Speaker 1: was some things that that we had to fight over,

1911
01:38:43,640 --> 01:38:45,680
Speaker 1: like if I wanted to buy something out of the

1912
01:38:45,760 --> 01:38:47,479
Speaker 1: and use money from the corporate tail, he had to

1913
01:38:47,479 --> 01:38:50,160
Speaker 1: agree to it. So there was a lot of built

1914
01:38:50,160 --> 01:38:51,920
Speaker 1: in conflicts. I say, you know, we could be like

1915
01:38:52,560 --> 01:38:55,000
Speaker 1: Bob Daily and Terry Simmel Less We could have a

1916
01:38:55,000 --> 01:38:57,640
Speaker 1: perfect partnership. You got your thing, I got minors, and

1917
01:38:57,640 --> 01:39:00,800
Speaker 1: we'll try and be reasonable. But uh uh so there

1918
01:39:00,840 --> 01:39:03,559
Speaker 1: was areas where it did come together. But largely we

1919
01:39:03,560 --> 01:39:06,240
Speaker 1: were both running the same things we did before, and

1920
01:39:06,320 --> 01:39:10,240
Speaker 1: we took on all the corporate things, legal, human resources,

1921
01:39:10,680 --> 01:39:14,400
Speaker 1: all the sort of all those organizations and investor relations.

1922
01:39:14,400 --> 01:39:17,559
Speaker 1: So I got a lot of exposure to the investor community.

1923
01:39:17,600 --> 01:39:19,599
Speaker 1: It was a different job. I had to really less

1924
01:39:19,600 --> 01:39:21,240
Speaker 1: and I were the face of the company. But then,

1925
01:39:21,439 --> 01:39:25,400
Speaker 1: uh there was pressure from the people on both sides,

1926
01:39:26,280 --> 01:39:28,720
Speaker 1: you know, and the and these bankers would come around say,

1927
01:39:28,720 --> 01:39:30,280
Speaker 1: you know, one of the reasons your stock's not going

1928
01:39:30,360 --> 01:39:32,080
Speaker 1: up is because your your company is too big, it's

1929
01:39:32,120 --> 01:39:34,800
Speaker 1: too complicated. What you really need to do is split

1930
01:39:34,880 --> 01:39:38,559
Speaker 1: it up into two different companies. And uh, you know

1931
01:39:38,720 --> 01:39:42,479
Speaker 1: that logic was faulty, but we did it, and uh

1932
01:39:42,520 --> 01:39:45,400
Speaker 1: it was painful. I mean, so we had CBS Inc.

1933
01:39:45,520 --> 01:39:48,320
Speaker 1: And less So I now became the CEO of my

1934
01:39:48,479 --> 01:39:51,000
Speaker 1: separate public company, and so did less Moon Invest. Now,

1935
01:39:51,000 --> 01:39:54,960
Speaker 1: of course, through all it followed, they reunited and they're

1936
01:39:54,960 --> 01:39:57,160
Speaker 1: back together under Bob backage. But that's sort of the

1937
01:39:57,200 --> 01:39:59,280
Speaker 1: story of how it happened. But when I was I

1938
01:39:59,320 --> 01:40:01,760
Speaker 1: was only there for eight months until he fired me.

1939
01:40:02,040 --> 01:40:05,880
Speaker 1: I mean, basically I was still rearranging the furniture in

1940
01:40:05,920 --> 01:40:11,840
Speaker 1: my office. However, you suddenly had purview over Paramount, which

1941
01:40:11,920 --> 01:40:14,240
Speaker 1: had been in a bad spell, and you made some

1942
01:40:14,360 --> 01:40:16,800
Speaker 1: changes there. What were your experiences, what you learn in

1943
01:40:16,840 --> 01:40:20,320
Speaker 1: the movie business. Well, I didn't know a lot. You know,

1944
01:40:20,520 --> 01:40:23,080
Speaker 1: we had been making movies with Paramount for years, you know,

1945
01:40:23,240 --> 01:40:25,679
Speaker 1: MTV and Nickelodeon. But being a producer of a movie

1946
01:40:25,800 --> 01:40:27,760
Speaker 1: was not like running a movie studio. And I had

1947
01:40:27,880 --> 01:40:31,320
Speaker 1: I had been able to sit at the table with

1948
01:40:31,439 --> 01:40:34,599
Speaker 1: red Stone and and see John Dolton, who ran Paramount.

1949
01:40:34,640 --> 01:40:37,320
Speaker 1: I I would I was like being in some business

1950
01:40:37,320 --> 01:40:39,320
Speaker 1: school for running a media conglomorate. I learned a lot

1951
01:40:39,320 --> 01:40:41,560
Speaker 1: through observation, But when I got out there and I

1952
01:40:41,600 --> 01:40:43,320
Speaker 1: had to do it, I didn't know that Paramount was

1953
01:40:43,360 --> 01:40:45,960
Speaker 1: in trouble. They were on a cold streak. The culture

1954
01:40:46,000 --> 01:40:52,280
Speaker 1: wasn't particularly helpful, and the idea was well uh Sherry.

1955
01:40:52,600 --> 01:40:55,200
Speaker 1: Sherry Lansing became the head of it, but then she

1956
01:40:55,360 --> 01:40:58,439
Speaker 1: told me instead of John Dolton who left. But then

1957
01:40:58,479 --> 01:41:01,320
Speaker 1: Sherry said, you know, I want to retire. I'm sixty.

1958
01:41:01,479 --> 01:41:03,639
Speaker 1: I want out. So I had to find the new head.

1959
01:41:03,680 --> 01:41:05,880
Speaker 1: And I said, well, this is an opportunity to sort

1960
01:41:05,920 --> 01:41:09,479
Speaker 1: of maybe haven't turned the page and uh, you know,

1961
01:41:09,479 --> 01:41:11,760
Speaker 1: start a new era. And then I also realized that

1962
01:41:11,800 --> 01:41:14,320
Speaker 1: I'm like a cable weasel. I'm just a cable weasel.

1963
01:41:14,360 --> 01:41:16,280
Speaker 1: We're at the bottom of the Hollywood food chain and

1964
01:41:16,320 --> 01:41:19,160
Speaker 1: here I am running the studio. So I got Bob Daily,

1965
01:41:20,120 --> 01:41:23,280
Speaker 1: who I knew. Bob Daily and Terry. They had once

1966
01:41:23,360 --> 01:41:25,240
Speaker 1: offered me the job to run the Warner Music Group,

1967
01:41:25,280 --> 01:41:27,400
Speaker 1: which I turned down. But I developed a good relationship

1968
01:41:27,479 --> 01:41:30,360
Speaker 1: with both of them, and I asked Bob Daily if

1969
01:41:30,360 --> 01:41:32,080
Speaker 1: he would be a mentor for me and teach me

1970
01:41:32,120 --> 01:41:35,120
Speaker 1: the movie business. So for one summer, I would go

1971
01:41:35,240 --> 01:41:37,800
Speaker 1: from my office in Santa Monica to his house and

1972
01:41:37,840 --> 01:41:40,559
Speaker 1: we'd have classes. Basically, he'd give me homework. I learned

1973
01:41:40,560 --> 01:41:43,240
Speaker 1: about film p and l's, what kind of deals exist,

1974
01:41:43,360 --> 01:41:45,960
Speaker 1: how the movie business works. And I said, you know,

1975
01:41:46,280 --> 01:41:48,599
Speaker 1: we we we got to get someone to replace Sherry

1976
01:41:48,600 --> 01:41:51,120
Speaker 1: because she's gonna be out of here soon. So I

1977
01:41:51,160 --> 01:41:54,320
Speaker 1: tried hiring some of the people who were running movies

1978
01:41:54,360 --> 01:41:57,160
Speaker 1: to that that's the top job in Hollywood, as you know.

1979
01:41:58,280 --> 01:42:01,559
Speaker 1: And what happened was when someone get fired, generally a

1980
01:42:01,600 --> 01:42:04,080
Speaker 1: person for another movie studio who'd been running literacy. It's

1981
01:42:04,080 --> 01:42:07,719
Speaker 1: like musical chairs. So I tried to hire Stacy Snyder,

1982
01:42:08,040 --> 01:42:10,360
Speaker 1: who at the time was like the hottest I thought,

1983
01:42:10,680 --> 01:42:13,880
Speaker 1: and she was a woman, and she was lovely and

1984
01:42:14,000 --> 01:42:17,200
Speaker 1: smart and accomplished, and she couldn't get out of her contract.

1985
01:42:17,320 --> 01:42:19,320
Speaker 1: And then I would ask around other places, and people

1986
01:42:19,360 --> 01:42:21,719
Speaker 1: couldn't get out of their contracts. So then I would

1987
01:42:21,880 --> 01:42:24,080
Speaker 1: go around and talk to people who used to be

1988
01:42:24,520 --> 01:42:26,840
Speaker 1: near the top of a movie studio or had been,

1989
01:42:27,120 --> 01:42:28,840
Speaker 1: and I would interview them. But then I would have

1990
01:42:28,880 --> 01:42:31,080
Speaker 1: him come up to Bob Daily's house and have Bob

1991
01:42:31,120 --> 01:42:34,759
Speaker 1: talked to them. And we were sort of getting nowhere.

1992
01:42:35,240 --> 01:42:39,800
Speaker 1: I wasn't really turned on by anybody. And one day

1993
01:42:40,360 --> 01:42:43,640
Speaker 1: I was in Beiruts actually on an MTV business and

1994
01:42:43,760 --> 01:42:45,599
Speaker 1: David Geffin calls me. He says, I got the right

1995
01:42:45,600 --> 01:42:49,519
Speaker 1: person for you to run the Paramount. Perfect guy. Who's

1996
01:42:49,560 --> 01:42:54,639
Speaker 1: that Brad Gray? Really? Brad Gray? I knew Brad Gray.

1997
01:42:54,479 --> 01:42:56,320
Speaker 1: But Brad was then at the top of his game.

1998
01:42:56,360 --> 01:42:59,280
Speaker 1: He was, you know, a Millstein Gray. He was producer

1999
01:42:59,280 --> 01:43:02,639
Speaker 1: of soprano those and blah blah blah. He had good taste.

2000
01:43:02,680 --> 01:43:04,720
Speaker 1: He was this and that and intrigued me. And I

2001
01:43:04,760 --> 01:43:08,240
Speaker 1: spent a lot of time with Brad. I already knew him.

2002
01:43:08,360 --> 01:43:12,320
Speaker 1: Bob spent time with Brad, and then, uh, I thought

2003
01:43:12,360 --> 01:43:19,719
Speaker 1: that Brad would have risen to the occasion of realizing

2004
01:43:19,840 --> 01:43:22,240
Speaker 1: this is a really big company and it needs leadership,

2005
01:43:22,479 --> 01:43:24,439
Speaker 1: and you can't be locked up in your office just

2006
01:43:24,520 --> 01:43:27,360
Speaker 1: doing deals with the directors. You shouldn't be out there,

2007
01:43:28,080 --> 01:43:30,880
Speaker 1: you know, with the rank and file and make this

2008
01:43:30,960 --> 01:43:33,519
Speaker 1: culture of the place a little healthier. But you know,

2009
01:43:35,360 --> 01:43:38,840
Speaker 1: one good thing we did was by dream Works. We

2010
01:43:38,960 --> 01:43:43,479
Speaker 1: bought dream Works. But then I got fired, and uh,

2011
01:43:43,720 --> 01:43:47,160
Speaker 1: you know, life went on the DreamWorks partnership, which I

2012
01:43:47,240 --> 01:43:49,720
Speaker 1: really thought was gonna be a game changer for us

2013
01:43:49,760 --> 01:43:51,960
Speaker 1: because it brought us a lot of movies that gave

2014
01:43:52,040 --> 01:43:54,800
Speaker 1: us Spielberg and Geffen and Cassenberg sort of in our

2015
01:43:54,880 --> 01:43:58,360
Speaker 1: tent that they were real players, could up our game.

2016
01:43:58,439 --> 01:44:02,760
Speaker 1: But that relationship sort of fell apart under Brad, you know,

2017
01:44:02,960 --> 01:44:05,040
Speaker 1: for for reasons that were no good and they ended

2018
01:44:05,120 --> 01:44:07,640
Speaker 1: up buying out and going away, which was sort of

2019
01:44:07,680 --> 01:44:12,200
Speaker 1: a big disappointment. I was gone by then, and anyway,

2020
01:44:12,320 --> 01:44:16,840
Speaker 1: what I learned was it's its own little world. As

2021
01:44:16,920 --> 01:44:20,640
Speaker 1: we all know, it's a very peculiar world. And I

2022
01:44:21,920 --> 01:44:24,320
Speaker 1: Brad was very able in many ways and did have

2023
01:44:24,400 --> 01:44:27,439
Speaker 1: good taste, and he did produce and some good movies

2024
01:44:27,479 --> 01:44:30,920
Speaker 1: and hire some good people, But it didn't accomplish the

2025
01:44:31,040 --> 01:44:35,719
Speaker 1: change of the full change I have been hoping for

2026
01:44:36,280 --> 01:44:39,000
Speaker 1: at the end of the day. Okay, there was obviously

2027
01:44:39,040 --> 01:44:44,000
Speaker 1: the MySpace public thing, but less uh, under promise and

2028
01:44:44,080 --> 01:44:46,479
Speaker 1: over delivered. It's a Wall Street game. Well, you know,

2029
01:44:46,520 --> 01:44:49,560
Speaker 1: we'll give you low projections where you gave accurate projections.

2030
01:44:50,360 --> 01:44:52,200
Speaker 1: If you had to do it again, would you do

2031
01:44:52,240 --> 01:44:59,960
Speaker 1: it differently? Well, we sort of overdid, under promise and overdelivered.

2032
01:45:00,000 --> 01:45:02,240
Speaker 1: We delivered a lot. You know, we would we would,

2033
01:45:02,280 --> 01:45:06,000
Speaker 1: we would, uh if we had. We always took a

2034
01:45:06,000 --> 01:45:09,599
Speaker 1: little haircat over what we thought we could do, And

2035
01:45:10,040 --> 01:45:16,320
Speaker 1: it wasn't really an issue that, um, we hadn't been

2036
01:45:16,320 --> 01:45:18,400
Speaker 1: making our numbers. We'd, like I said, we've been making

2037
01:45:18,400 --> 01:45:21,880
Speaker 1: our numbers all those years. The one thing that fell

2038
01:45:21,920 --> 01:45:24,680
Speaker 1: out of whack. The first quarter was at MTV International,

2039
01:45:24,920 --> 01:45:28,320
Speaker 1: which had been growing like a weed kind of like,

2040
01:45:28,960 --> 01:45:31,000
Speaker 1: took a couple of big hits and sank, you know,

2041
01:45:31,120 --> 01:45:34,519
Speaker 1: sank our earnings down and sank the revenues down. And

2042
01:45:34,560 --> 01:45:39,200
Speaker 1: everyone was looking at our first earnings quarter under a microscope.

2043
01:45:39,240 --> 01:45:42,439
Speaker 1: So there must be something wrong. You know. The next quarter,

2044
01:45:42,520 --> 01:45:46,240
Speaker 1: by the way they were, we were up like so

2045
01:45:46,600 --> 01:45:48,320
Speaker 1: I I thought we were going to see a lot

2046
01:45:48,400 --> 01:45:52,160
Speaker 1: of growth going forward. But it didn't really turn out

2047
01:45:52,200 --> 01:45:56,120
Speaker 1: that why they were getting rid of me was because

2048
01:45:56,120 --> 01:45:59,280
Speaker 1: our numbers weren't good. There was just that I wasn't

2049
01:46:00,080 --> 01:46:02,760
Speaker 1: the right guy for that job. You know, I was

2050
01:46:02,800 --> 01:46:05,800
Speaker 1: not the mainstream businessman. In many ways, I wasn't, you know,

2051
01:46:05,880 --> 01:46:09,280
Speaker 1: I was. I was enjoying it and looking to sort

2052
01:46:09,280 --> 01:46:11,920
Speaker 1: of move up and try it. But you know, my

2053
01:46:11,920 --> 01:46:14,759
Speaker 1: my world and basically dealing with creative people had changed.

2054
01:46:14,760 --> 01:46:18,040
Speaker 1: Now I was dealing with Wall Street a good part

2055
01:46:18,080 --> 01:46:22,639
Speaker 1: of the time and dealing with other issues, which I thought,

2056
01:46:22,720 --> 01:46:27,679
Speaker 1: you know, I was gonna give it a go. I

2057
01:46:27,680 --> 01:46:29,800
Speaker 1: I didn't think that just really came out of left

2058
01:46:29,800 --> 01:46:34,479
Speaker 1: field for me getting fired. Okay, so you do get fired,

2059
01:46:34,560 --> 01:46:36,680
Speaker 1: you say, you get a call from Bano where you

2060
01:46:36,800 --> 01:46:39,200
Speaker 1: offered other jobs because you said earlier you got a

2061
01:46:39,200 --> 01:46:42,200
Speaker 1: call from Morgado about running the Warner Music Group. We're

2062
01:46:42,240 --> 01:46:46,479
Speaker 1: people looking for you, Morgado from from Daily and Semmel Daily.

2063
01:46:46,520 --> 01:46:49,439
Speaker 1: And because Morgado and I were like sort of, you know,

2064
01:46:50,320 --> 01:46:52,240
Speaker 1: at at odds with each other, He's like, well, I

2065
01:46:52,240 --> 01:46:54,160
Speaker 1: could never hear I could never get along with that guy.

2066
01:46:54,920 --> 01:46:57,559
Speaker 1: A lot of other people couldn't either. My mistake. But

2067
01:46:58,040 --> 01:47:00,920
Speaker 1: after you leave via calm Are, there are other offers

2068
01:47:00,960 --> 01:47:05,360
Speaker 1: that you end up turning down. Yeah, a couple came in,

2069
01:47:06,000 --> 01:47:08,000
Speaker 1: A couple came in. But I what I figured out

2070
01:47:08,120 --> 01:47:10,360
Speaker 1: was I didn't want to be grafted on top of

2071
01:47:10,360 --> 01:47:14,360
Speaker 1: a company that I really didn't have that big emotional

2072
01:47:14,360 --> 01:47:17,600
Speaker 1: connection to. I was really unlikely to fall into the

2073
01:47:17,640 --> 01:47:22,000
Speaker 1: same type of beautiful place for me that the MTV Networks, Nickelodeon,

2074
01:47:22,000 --> 01:47:24,920
Speaker 1: Comedy Central was. That was everything I loved, all about

2075
01:47:24,960 --> 01:47:28,040
Speaker 1: all the things I loved, and I figured, you know,

2076
01:47:28,400 --> 01:47:30,800
Speaker 1: I'd given it a good run, why not try something else?

2077
01:47:31,080 --> 01:47:35,880
Speaker 1: So I thought I would do this portfolio approach to things,

2078
01:47:35,920 --> 01:47:38,920
Speaker 1: which is maybe do something not for profit work, maybe

2079
01:47:39,160 --> 01:47:41,640
Speaker 1: work with a private equity company. I went on the

2080
01:47:41,720 --> 01:47:44,840
Speaker 1: DreamWorks board. I worked for Oprah for a couple of years.

2081
01:47:45,200 --> 01:47:46,680
Speaker 1: I mean I did a lot of interesting things, Like

2082
01:47:46,920 --> 01:47:49,000
Speaker 1: I went back The first thing I did was really

2083
01:47:49,240 --> 01:47:52,120
Speaker 1: go back to Afghanistan. I went back there and started

2084
01:47:52,160 --> 01:47:54,800
Speaker 1: training people. It was like the early days of MTV,

2085
01:47:54,880 --> 01:47:58,160
Speaker 1: training people how to run a television network. That was fantastic.

2086
01:47:59,400 --> 01:48:02,599
Speaker 1: You know, when Oprah started her cable channel, everyone thought

2087
01:48:02,600 --> 01:48:05,680
Speaker 1: it would be a smashing success ratings wise. Why was

2088
01:48:05,720 --> 01:48:09,519
Speaker 1: it ultimately not that level of success. Well, once she

2089
01:48:09,640 --> 01:48:16,439
Speaker 1: wasn't on it, she was still in syndication, and uh,

2090
01:48:16,760 --> 01:48:19,720
Speaker 1: they had a series of growing pains. I was a

2091
01:48:19,720 --> 01:48:22,880
Speaker 1: consultant there, but she got the distribution and there was

2092
01:48:22,920 --> 01:48:25,320
Speaker 1: a series of grower pains. I think there was an

2093
01:48:25,320 --> 01:48:27,800
Speaker 1: element of overconfidence about things and they were on a

2094
01:48:27,920 --> 01:48:31,599
Speaker 1: learning curve. They've now stabilized it into a decent profitable business.

2095
01:48:31,640 --> 01:48:33,840
Speaker 1: But out of the box, the big thing was I'm

2096
01:48:33,880 --> 01:48:36,240
Speaker 1: turning on the Oprah Winfrey network. I'm looking around for Oprah,

2097
01:48:36,240 --> 01:48:40,719
Speaker 1: but Oprah couldn't really be on it legally. So small

2098
01:48:40,720 --> 01:48:45,320
Speaker 1: things like having a music channel with no music right. Okay, Now,

2099
01:48:45,560 --> 01:48:49,200
Speaker 1: you're a guy from Roewaiton who goes to school in Vermont.

2100
01:48:49,840 --> 01:48:52,880
Speaker 1: All of a sudden, you're an MTV You're meeting a

2101
01:48:52,880 --> 01:48:57,639
Speaker 1: lot of rock stars. Hey, were you ever intimidated? What

2102
01:48:57,720 --> 01:49:00,680
Speaker 1: was the process? Is there anybody who still makes you

2103
01:49:00,760 --> 01:49:04,280
Speaker 1: somewhat anxious, not only rock stars but other notable people

2104
01:49:04,320 --> 01:49:10,280
Speaker 1: in the world. You know, I got confident in myself

2105
01:49:10,320 --> 01:49:15,599
Speaker 1: early on. Yeah, and I never really had a problem

2106
01:49:15,640 --> 01:49:20,880
Speaker 1: meeting with any movie star or uh rock star where

2107
01:49:20,880 --> 01:49:22,800
Speaker 1: you'd be trembling and you couldn't open your mouth and

2108
01:49:22,800 --> 01:49:25,200
Speaker 1: say anything. They're clearly people when you're in the presence

2109
01:49:25,200 --> 01:49:28,719
Speaker 1: of someone you've idolized your whole life, you know that

2110
01:49:28,800 --> 01:49:31,960
Speaker 1: you know and you can see that that that special sauce,

2111
01:49:32,000 --> 01:49:34,240
Speaker 1: that charisma that lives in within that body you see

2112
01:49:34,280 --> 01:49:37,879
Speaker 1: Mick Jagger or something. But I I never was afraid

2113
01:49:38,000 --> 01:49:41,639
Speaker 1: to go in a meeting and meeting and talk to anybody.

2114
01:49:41,680 --> 01:49:43,960
Speaker 1: I try it to be. I just always try to

2115
01:49:43,960 --> 01:49:48,479
Speaker 1: be myself. Okay, who are the two most charismatic rock

2116
01:49:48,560 --> 01:49:53,360
Speaker 1: stars you met in your tenure? David Bowie, who I

2117
01:49:53,400 --> 01:49:56,000
Speaker 1: have a good story about, then lay it on us.

2118
01:49:56,520 --> 01:49:58,880
Speaker 1: This is one of my favorite stories of all my time. There.

2119
01:49:58,960 --> 01:50:00,720
Speaker 1: When I was doing the I Want a MTV camp

2120
01:50:00,720 --> 01:50:02,920
Speaker 1: and I was always after David to his person, Let's

2121
01:50:02,960 --> 01:50:05,479
Speaker 1: get David Bowie to do one that's like really huge. Now,

2122
01:50:05,520 --> 01:50:08,040
Speaker 1: I mean, he's he's he's in the Pantheon for Christ's sake,

2123
01:50:08,680 --> 01:50:11,360
Speaker 1: and he's making these great videos. So finally he says,

2124
01:50:11,400 --> 01:50:13,960
Speaker 1: I'll do it, but you gotta come and see me.

2125
01:50:14,040 --> 01:50:18,880
Speaker 1: Him and Stodd Switzerland skiing. I go. So I got

2126
01:50:19,080 --> 01:50:23,719
Speaker 1: this guy Dale Pond, who was you know, our ad agency, uh,

2127
01:50:23,760 --> 01:50:26,240
Speaker 1: and we all went over there and we got like

2128
01:50:26,280 --> 01:50:28,519
Speaker 1: and it basically it moved into like a youth hostel.

2129
01:50:28,560 --> 01:50:31,200
Speaker 1: You're in fancy old stad and David staying at the

2130
01:50:31,240 --> 01:50:34,479
Speaker 1: Palace hotel. So we see him. We we agree to

2131
01:50:34,479 --> 01:50:36,120
Speaker 1: go out one day and we set up in the

2132
01:50:36,160 --> 01:50:38,400
Speaker 1: snow and he comes skiing down and we did about

2133
01:50:38,400 --> 01:50:41,360
Speaker 1: five or ten rons. He skis down and you know

2134
01:50:41,520 --> 01:50:44,560
Speaker 1: this turns and stopped, says, I want my MTV. He

2135
01:50:44,720 --> 01:50:47,400
Speaker 1: was really enthusiastic about it. I had had some dealings

2136
01:50:47,439 --> 01:50:51,160
Speaker 1: with him before and really liked the guy. He was

2137
01:50:51,280 --> 01:50:54,120
Speaker 1: just just a pleasure to be with, and it would

2138
01:50:54,160 --> 01:50:57,240
Speaker 1: be he would always ask you about yourself, and you know,

2139
01:50:57,360 --> 01:50:59,800
Speaker 1: he was really an engaging character. And you know, after

2140
01:50:59,800 --> 01:51:01,800
Speaker 1: were we of course we would have a hold your

2141
01:51:01,800 --> 01:51:04,519
Speaker 1: hands like this because we sticked an animated logo in there.

2142
01:51:04,520 --> 01:51:07,559
Speaker 1: So when we're finished, he goes, hey, uh, what you

2143
01:51:07,560 --> 01:51:12,120
Speaker 1: want to go skiing? Sure? So I spent you know,

2144
01:51:12,280 --> 01:51:14,560
Speaker 1: spent the day, uh, the rest of the day or

2145
01:51:14,880 --> 01:51:17,120
Speaker 1: part of it, you know, skiing with David Bowie, which

2146
01:51:17,160 --> 01:51:20,960
Speaker 1: was fine. And then he says, listen, I'm gonna be

2147
01:51:21,000 --> 01:51:22,960
Speaker 1: at the Palace that I am taking a sauna if

2148
01:51:22,960 --> 01:51:24,280
Speaker 1: you want to come, you know, meet me at the

2149
01:51:24,320 --> 01:51:26,920
Speaker 1: Palace Hotel. So I go, sure, you know, I go

2150
01:51:27,000 --> 01:51:30,320
Speaker 1: back to my youth hostel and uh. And I go

2151
01:51:30,400 --> 01:51:32,360
Speaker 1: to the Palace Hotel and I go into the spa

2152
01:51:32,520 --> 01:51:35,519
Speaker 1: where the the the he's in there. And I walk

2153
01:51:35,560 --> 01:51:38,679
Speaker 1: into the steam room and uh or the sauna room

2154
01:51:38,680 --> 01:51:41,000
Speaker 1: and who and and it's it's just him and me

2155
01:51:41,479 --> 01:51:47,160
Speaker 1: and Paul McCartney and I go, wow, you got that

2156
01:51:47,200 --> 01:51:49,720
Speaker 1: maybe then and they we're all just wearing towels. That

2157
01:51:49,880 --> 01:51:54,160
Speaker 1: was That was a keeper. Okay, you must have a

2158
01:51:54,160 --> 01:51:58,280
Speaker 1: couple of others. I'll take a pass. But I had

2159
01:51:58,280 --> 01:52:01,599
Speaker 1: some wonderful times and a lot of the musical artists

2160
01:52:01,600 --> 01:52:03,360
Speaker 1: that we love and enjoy. It was. It was a

2161
01:52:03,400 --> 01:52:08,000
Speaker 1: privilege anybody you never met you wanted to. Well, you

2162
01:52:08,000 --> 01:52:13,479
Speaker 1: know I had in the rock pop business in our era.

2163
01:52:13,560 --> 01:52:16,800
Speaker 1: I think pretty much everybody came around. Uh. You know

2164
01:52:16,880 --> 01:52:19,120
Speaker 1: there was people that I idolized, and you know that

2165
01:52:19,160 --> 01:52:22,679
Speaker 1: I was fans of another musical genres that I would

2166
01:52:22,680 --> 01:52:27,280
Speaker 1: have loved to have met, and I didn't. Okay, So

2167
01:52:27,320 --> 01:52:32,280
Speaker 1: who were the exacts who impressed you, John Sykes? But

2168
01:52:32,360 --> 01:52:37,280
Speaker 1: I'm also talking record company exects, record companies. Uh. I

2169
01:52:37,320 --> 01:52:43,040
Speaker 1: love Gil Freezing because I thought Gil Freesing. I related

2170
01:52:43,080 --> 01:52:45,600
Speaker 1: to Gil guilfrees and ran an operation sort of like

2171
01:52:45,720 --> 01:52:49,519
Speaker 1: what I wanted to run. Those guys Chris Blackwell, uh,

2172
01:52:50,240 --> 01:52:53,680
Speaker 1: Chris Wright, these guys that ran these small companies and

2173
01:52:53,760 --> 01:52:56,679
Speaker 1: unfortunately all got disappeared in their logos, got folded into

2174
01:52:56,680 --> 01:52:59,920
Speaker 1: something or other, something nondescript. They ran creative companies like

2175
01:53:00,040 --> 01:53:01,320
Speaker 1: kind of place I wanted to be. You know, they

2176
01:53:01,880 --> 01:53:03,800
Speaker 1: were in it for the music and they want they

2177
01:53:03,840 --> 01:53:06,160
Speaker 1: believed in the artist and it wasn't like we got

2178
01:53:06,160 --> 01:53:09,160
Speaker 1: to crank a single out. And they were artists friendly

2179
01:53:09,960 --> 01:53:12,400
Speaker 1: and they were willing to take creative chances. So I

2180
01:53:12,479 --> 01:53:15,719
Speaker 1: love Gil Freezing. He was terrific. I love Mo Austin

2181
01:53:15,800 --> 01:53:18,559
Speaker 1: I thought Moe was wonderful. As crazy as he was.

2182
01:53:18,640 --> 01:53:22,040
Speaker 1: I loved crass now, I mean he would be a guy.

2183
01:53:22,520 --> 01:53:24,559
Speaker 1: I mean, that's one story about him. I always loved.

2184
01:53:24,600 --> 01:53:26,800
Speaker 1: As he goes to Spain, they take him out in

2185
01:53:26,960 --> 01:53:30,599
Speaker 1: some club one night. They they all get they're all

2186
01:53:30,680 --> 01:53:33,599
Speaker 1: drunk and the Gypsy Kings come on and he's like,

2187
01:53:33,760 --> 01:53:35,920
Speaker 1: goes nuts and he goes backstage. So I'll give you

2188
01:53:35,920 --> 01:53:40,280
Speaker 1: guys a million dollars and they took it. That was

2189
01:53:40,320 --> 01:53:42,680
Speaker 1: like how they would sign people. You know, it was

2190
01:53:42,720 --> 01:53:44,760
Speaker 1: that nuts. And of course he made him into a hit.

2191
01:53:44,840 --> 01:53:48,559
Speaker 1: They they produced. Jeff ear Off was a guy who

2192
01:53:48,600 --> 01:53:51,280
Speaker 1: was unusual in the uh you know, on the lower

2193
01:53:51,280 --> 01:53:53,360
Speaker 1: down below the label head because he was sort of

2194
01:53:53,400 --> 01:53:57,000
Speaker 1: a visually trained guy who really had wonderful taste. And

2195
01:53:57,080 --> 01:54:01,080
Speaker 1: he was responsible for you know, oh shepherding through you know,

2196
01:54:01,200 --> 01:54:04,519
Speaker 1: Madonna's Easy Top. A lot of these people, police and

2197
01:54:04,560 --> 01:54:10,040
Speaker 1: so forth who had really good videos. Uh he he uh.

2198
01:54:10,240 --> 01:54:12,080
Speaker 1: He was great. I'm trying to think there were so many.

2199
01:54:12,160 --> 01:54:19,559
Speaker 1: I love Doug Morris. Doug was soulful and I I

2200
01:54:19,640 --> 01:54:24,759
Speaker 1: didn't have Irving for his short tenure at uh. Remember

2201
01:54:24,760 --> 01:54:27,000
Speaker 1: he ran m c A for a while and after

2202
01:54:27,040 --> 01:54:29,680
Speaker 1: I'll tell her left, No, I'll tell her replaced him.

2203
01:54:29,680 --> 01:54:32,800
Speaker 1: He brought in all the replacement that was okay. You know,

2204
01:54:33,120 --> 01:54:35,360
Speaker 1: after a while, the memory gets a little weak. Oh listen,

2205
01:54:35,400 --> 01:54:38,440
Speaker 1: it's amazing how long it was ago. So obviously things

2206
01:54:38,480 --> 01:54:40,920
Speaker 1: have changed in the fifteen odd years since you've been gone.

2207
01:54:41,480 --> 01:54:44,560
Speaker 1: But is there any way to save MTV that you

2208
01:54:44,640 --> 01:54:48,160
Speaker 1: no longer called music television? They certainly are on the

2209
01:54:48,200 --> 01:54:51,760
Speaker 1: cable system. Is this just a fade out or can

2210
01:54:51,800 --> 01:54:59,080
Speaker 1: there be a renaissance? Well, some people at the top

2211
01:54:59,120 --> 01:55:02,480
Speaker 1: of these legacy companies would tell you, you know, all

2212
01:55:02,520 --> 01:55:05,640
Speaker 1: of these linear networks are gonna go away. They're gonna

2213
01:55:05,640 --> 01:55:07,760
Speaker 1: implode this the money is getting sucked out and they're

2214
01:55:07,800 --> 01:55:09,560
Speaker 1: not gonna be able to hold his Everything is going

2215
01:55:09,600 --> 01:55:12,720
Speaker 1: to the you know, streaming model. That's not to say

2216
01:55:12,840 --> 01:55:15,840
Speaker 1: MTV couldn't resurrect itself or be something else in the

2217
01:55:15,880 --> 01:55:18,680
Speaker 1: streaming world. All of these guys are gonna have to

2218
01:55:18,760 --> 01:55:22,880
Speaker 1: figure out our way to uh uh kind of transition.

2219
01:55:23,680 --> 01:55:27,280
Speaker 1: I'll say this, Um Bob Backish, who's now the CEO

2220
01:55:27,440 --> 01:55:30,320
Speaker 1: of Viacom CBS and who I hired him? I love

2221
01:55:30,400 --> 01:55:33,080
Speaker 1: he's a soulful guy. He's as smart as a smart

2222
01:55:33,120 --> 01:55:35,840
Speaker 1: guy and he has been dealt a week hand, but

2223
01:55:35,840 --> 01:55:39,120
Speaker 1: he's played it pretty well so far. They're never gonna

2224
01:55:39,160 --> 01:55:42,840
Speaker 1: make I don't think MTV into what it was, which

2225
01:55:42,880 --> 01:55:47,640
Speaker 1: was his music based phenomena, But they seem to have

2226
01:55:48,240 --> 01:55:50,280
Speaker 1: I don't pay a lot of attention to, but they

2227
01:55:50,320 --> 01:55:54,840
Speaker 1: seem to have reverted to this. We just have a

2228
01:55:54,880 --> 01:55:57,240
Speaker 1: bunch of shows on there, and if they have a

2229
01:55:57,280 --> 01:55:59,840
Speaker 1: hit show or another, you know, they can't they got

2230
01:55:59,840 --> 01:56:02,520
Speaker 1: some kind of incarnation and reincarnation of the Jersey Shore

2231
01:56:02,600 --> 01:56:08,160
Speaker 1: or maybe they can you know, make uh, some connection

2232
01:56:08,240 --> 01:56:11,400
Speaker 1: to the younger audiences out there today. I mean, it's America.

2233
01:56:11,480 --> 01:56:13,680
Speaker 1: Everybody comes back. It's never going to come back as

2234
01:56:13,760 --> 01:56:17,720
Speaker 1: what it was, but I would say it's you know,

2235
01:56:18,400 --> 01:56:20,560
Speaker 1: things have a hard time just totally dying off in

2236
01:56:20,600 --> 01:56:24,760
Speaker 1: the media business. I mean, look, terrestrial radio still around. Uh.

2237
01:56:25,640 --> 01:56:28,040
Speaker 1: I wouldn't I wouldn't know what to do, and I

2238
01:56:28,040 --> 01:56:30,200
Speaker 1: haven't really thought about it. I haven't watched it much.

2239
01:56:30,320 --> 01:56:34,080
Speaker 1: But they had some quick creative people there, and they

2240
01:56:34,120 --> 01:56:36,919
Speaker 1: had some money to do things with. It's entirely possible

2241
01:56:36,960 --> 01:56:40,400
Speaker 1: they could resurrect themselves. You know. Our biggest business was

2242
01:56:40,440 --> 01:56:45,760
Speaker 1: always Nickelodeon. Nickelodeon's taken a huge hit. Well, you know,

2243
01:56:45,840 --> 01:56:48,440
Speaker 1: in the beginning they started Philip they licensed all their

2244
01:56:48,480 --> 01:56:50,320
Speaker 1: product to Netflix. So you have all these little five

2245
01:56:50,360 --> 01:56:52,560
Speaker 1: six year old kids, they're watching SpongeBob. They just push

2246
01:56:52,600 --> 01:56:55,720
Speaker 1: a button and one SpongeBob or one rug Rust after another.

2247
01:56:55,760 --> 01:56:57,120
Speaker 1: You know, it's hard to get him to go back

2248
01:56:57,160 --> 01:57:01,400
Speaker 1: and watch commercials. You know. Oh, it's that that's gonna

2249
01:57:01,440 --> 01:57:04,280
Speaker 1: be the streaming generation. And so that took a big

2250
01:57:04,400 --> 01:57:07,120
Speaker 1: hunk out of their out of what they were. They

2251
01:57:07,160 --> 01:57:09,840
Speaker 1: had a great machine going on and uh, you know,

2252
01:57:09,960 --> 01:57:16,160
Speaker 1: consumer behavior really uh has been a big factor for them.

2253
01:57:16,200 --> 01:57:19,200
Speaker 1: So in your career, what was the personal peak when

2254
01:57:19,240 --> 01:57:25,640
Speaker 1: you felt the best some specific moment. I love being

2255
01:57:25,680 --> 01:57:27,920
Speaker 1: on the stage at Live aid Bob. That was something,

2256
01:57:28,880 --> 01:57:34,800
Speaker 1: you know that was really pretty special. Uh. When we

2257
01:57:34,880 --> 01:57:37,440
Speaker 1: launched MTV Europe initially we launched, we had a big

2258
01:57:37,520 --> 01:57:40,120
Speaker 1: party in Amsterdam and I remember being in a speedboat

2259
01:57:40,120 --> 01:57:42,480
Speaker 1: and going through the canals of Amsterdam with Elton John

2260
01:57:42,520 --> 01:57:44,480
Speaker 1: and all these people, and it was a beautiful night

2261
01:57:44,520 --> 01:57:49,800
Speaker 1: and I'm thinking, man, this fantastic. Uh. There was a

2262
01:57:49,880 --> 01:57:53,960
Speaker 1: lot of moments I I told you in the beginning.

2263
01:57:54,000 --> 01:57:56,600
Speaker 1: When I left the advertising business, it was because they

2264
01:57:56,640 --> 01:57:59,520
Speaker 1: threatened to put me on the Sharman account with Don't

2265
01:57:59,520 --> 01:58:03,360
Speaker 1: Squeeze Charman. Mr Whipple. Well, when we launched, when we

2266
01:58:03,440 --> 01:58:07,000
Speaker 1: launched TV Land in the mid nineties, we went out

2267
01:58:07,000 --> 01:58:08,960
Speaker 1: of our way to find a lot of these old commercials,

2268
01:58:09,000 --> 01:58:10,440
Speaker 1: and I said, we'd be cool. Let's get a lot

2269
01:58:10,440 --> 01:58:12,280
Speaker 1: of old commercial let's clear the rights and we can

2270
01:58:12,320 --> 01:58:15,320
Speaker 1: run some old commercials with the old shows. So I'm

2271
01:58:15,360 --> 01:58:19,200
Speaker 1: at a party and I met Mr Whipple. Did you

2272
01:58:19,240 --> 01:58:22,560
Speaker 1: tell him your story? Yes, it just killed me. You

2273
01:58:22,640 --> 01:58:25,280
Speaker 1: don't Squeeze the Charman. This guy made a whole living

2274
01:58:25,360 --> 01:58:27,520
Speaker 1: on all these residuals on you know, being a guy

2275
01:58:27,600 --> 01:58:31,000
Speaker 1: squeeze and toilet paper. I almost got into his ecosystem.

2276
01:58:31,080 --> 01:58:34,400
Speaker 1: But I just thought that was an amazing piece of

2277
01:58:34,400 --> 01:58:37,720
Speaker 1: synchronicity that we finally run into each other. He let

2278
01:58:37,760 --> 01:58:40,640
Speaker 1: me because of Charman and Mr Whipple, I quit and

2279
01:58:40,720 --> 01:58:44,040
Speaker 1: left in this whole other world appeared exactly amazing. You say,

2280
01:58:44,160 --> 01:58:49,560
Speaker 1: another door opens, Thomas has been fantastic. You know, you

2281
01:58:49,680 --> 01:58:52,520
Speaker 1: really radiate your intelligence and your ability to speak. A

2282
01:58:52,600 --> 01:58:55,240
Speaker 1: lot of executives can't deliver. It's like I'm just wold,

2283
01:58:55,240 --> 01:58:57,720
Speaker 1: I'm sitting here and go can this stay this great?

2284
01:58:58,400 --> 01:59:01,080
Speaker 1: You were really ten of a ten skaler, as they

2285
01:59:01,080 --> 01:59:03,920
Speaker 1: would say in spinal Top and eleven. So thanks so

2286
01:59:04,040 --> 01:59:06,640
Speaker 1: much for doing this well. You asked me about things

2287
01:59:06,640 --> 01:59:09,120
Speaker 1: for a really great period. So pleasure and always good

2288
01:59:09,120 --> 01:59:10,880
Speaker 1: to see you, Bob. I don't know how you do it.

2289
01:59:11,160 --> 01:59:12,560
Speaker 1: I don't know how you do it. I'll say one

2290
01:59:12,640 --> 01:59:14,880
Speaker 1: last thing. I watched that Frank Zappa movie last night

2291
01:59:14,920 --> 01:59:19,840
Speaker 1: on your recommendation, so verdict. Yeah, the verdict was I

2292
01:59:19,880 --> 01:59:22,000
Speaker 1: loved it, you know, and I became I got to

2293
01:59:22,040 --> 01:59:23,920
Speaker 1: hang out with Frank brow because you know, I hired

2294
01:59:24,040 --> 01:59:26,520
Speaker 1: Weasel and Moon at one point, so I used to

2295
01:59:26,520 --> 01:59:28,520
Speaker 1: go up to their house for happy hours. I thought

2296
01:59:29,440 --> 01:59:32,280
Speaker 1: that the director, you know, who was not an ordinary

2297
01:59:32,360 --> 01:59:35,680
Speaker 1: documentary director, did a great job. It was almost and

2298
01:59:35,720 --> 01:59:38,000
Speaker 1: I read your thing you said it was almost impressionistic,

2299
01:59:38,520 --> 01:59:40,640
Speaker 1: which I think was a was a good judgment on it.

2300
01:59:40,720 --> 01:59:43,080
Speaker 1: And he was a guy who did it his way.

2301
01:59:43,160 --> 01:59:45,960
Speaker 1: He was an impressive man. You know, what was your

2302
01:59:46,000 --> 01:59:49,160
Speaker 1: experience with him since you were hanging out. Was he

2303
01:59:49,200 --> 01:59:52,560
Speaker 1: engaged or distant? He was good. I would go there

2304
01:59:52,560 --> 01:59:54,320
Speaker 1: and he was I didn't know he was sick at

2305
01:59:54,320 --> 01:59:56,640
Speaker 1: the time, and it might have been I don't think

2306
01:59:56,680 --> 01:59:59,640
Speaker 1: anybody knew. But my my main door to him was

2307
01:59:59,640 --> 02:00:02,560
Speaker 1: through Ale who I would call up Gail and I'd say, Gail,

2308
02:00:02,560 --> 02:00:04,040
Speaker 1: I want to come and see you. I'd love to

2309
02:00:04,080 --> 02:00:08,040
Speaker 1: hire Dweasel to be a fej and then uh and

2310
02:00:08,160 --> 02:00:11,440
Speaker 1: moon so and Gails such a flat out character. And

2311
02:00:11,480 --> 02:00:14,920
Speaker 1: through Gail we developed a bit of a bond and

2312
02:00:14,960 --> 02:00:17,440
Speaker 1: she said, you know, you gotta come up for happy hours.

2313
02:00:17,480 --> 02:00:20,000
Speaker 1: We had happy hours up on Woodrow Wilson Drive there

2314
02:00:20,040 --> 02:00:21,720
Speaker 1: and Laurel, can you go? You gotta be kidding me.

2315
02:00:21,760 --> 02:00:23,480
Speaker 1: I'm saying to myself. I used to go see them

2316
02:00:23,480 --> 02:00:25,040
Speaker 1: when I was living in New York that they were

2317
02:00:25,080 --> 02:00:28,560
Speaker 1: playing at that theater. Uh, And I said, well, Frank

2318
02:00:28,720 --> 02:00:30,960
Speaker 1: was like a legend and we've been through the PMRC

2319
02:00:31,120 --> 02:00:34,440
Speaker 1: and all that stuff, and uh, he was good, you know,

2320
02:00:34,480 --> 02:00:37,080
Speaker 1: but uh, he he had a he had a good

2321
02:00:37,080 --> 02:00:39,760
Speaker 1: sense of humor. He had a chip on his shoulder

2322
02:00:40,680 --> 02:00:44,000
Speaker 1: because he didn't feel he was successful like he deserved

2323
02:00:44,000 --> 02:00:46,920
Speaker 1: to be. I think, so, you know, he he played

2324
02:00:46,960 --> 02:00:50,000
Speaker 1: at that at a whole other level. And uh, not

2325
02:00:50,080 --> 02:00:52,760
Speaker 1: a lot of people got that. He was always a

2326
02:00:52,760 --> 02:00:54,960
Speaker 1: cult kind of artist. He was never going to be mainstream.

2327
02:00:55,000 --> 02:00:57,080
Speaker 1: I mean, what was his big hit was Valley Girl,

2328
02:00:57,440 --> 02:00:59,920
Speaker 1: right with Moon. That's the only tell me faith the

2329
02:01:00,000 --> 02:01:04,520
Speaker 1: singles charts. But I I wasn't. I was a thrill

2330
02:01:04,600 --> 02:01:08,240
Speaker 1: to meet him because I thought he was a real icon.

2331
02:01:08,800 --> 02:01:11,440
Speaker 1: And uh, I thought, I don't know much about because

2332
02:01:11,480 --> 02:01:13,320
Speaker 1: I never went into with anybody. But you know, to

2333
02:01:13,440 --> 02:01:17,600
Speaker 1: die at prostate cancer, you know, twenty years later that

2334
02:01:17,600 --> 02:01:21,240
Speaker 1: wouldn't have happened, but all of advances in prostate cancer

2335
02:01:21,320 --> 02:01:24,080
Speaker 1: treatments and so forth, you know, he's a tough one.

2336
02:01:24,200 --> 02:01:27,800
Speaker 1: Well it's weird because he died at fifty two. Now

2337
02:01:27,880 --> 02:01:30,960
Speaker 1: from our perch, that seems so young. It seemed young then,

2338
02:01:31,480 --> 02:01:35,200
Speaker 1: but now it's like in the prime of your life. Yeah,

2339
02:01:35,240 --> 02:01:39,840
Speaker 1: exactly so. And then going going back to the movie,

2340
02:01:40,440 --> 02:01:43,000
Speaker 1: you know, uh, there are a lot of people trying

2341
02:01:43,040 --> 02:01:47,280
Speaker 1: to rewrite the sixties. Okay, but I thought that movie

2342
02:01:47,320 --> 02:01:50,480
Speaker 1: got the vibe of the sixties, the vibe of New York.

2343
02:01:50,720 --> 02:01:53,520
Speaker 1: When they actually showed the theater he played in New York,

2344
02:01:53,640 --> 02:01:56,480
Speaker 1: I didn't go to those gigs. I was just stunned

2345
02:01:56,520 --> 02:01:59,640
Speaker 1: how small it was. Now a little narrow theater but

2346
02:01:59,800 --> 02:02:02,240
Speaker 1: it is like it was like there Hamburg in a way.

2347
02:02:02,560 --> 02:02:04,720
Speaker 1: You know, they were playing for three months, they had

2348
02:02:04,760 --> 02:02:07,520
Speaker 1: a residency, and they kind of got their ship together,

2349
02:02:07,640 --> 02:02:09,800
Speaker 1: and they got this cult word of mouth thing, and

2350
02:02:09,840 --> 02:02:12,760
Speaker 1: you know, they god knows, they looked so sixties. And

2351
02:02:12,800 --> 02:02:15,480
Speaker 1: that first record album which he didn't like, the cover

2352
02:02:15,560 --> 02:02:17,480
Speaker 1: of which I thought was fantastic. I we all had

2353
02:02:17,480 --> 02:02:20,440
Speaker 1: it in college, freak out. People were rolling, you know,

2354
02:02:20,560 --> 02:02:23,680
Speaker 1: marijuana joints on it all over the country. It's like

2355
02:02:23,720 --> 02:02:25,720
Speaker 1: a discovery. I mean, he had that song you didn't

2356
02:02:25,720 --> 02:02:28,080
Speaker 1: try to call me, and then he did a slow

2357
02:02:28,200 --> 02:02:30,240
Speaker 1: version of Ruben just you know, I was primer in

2358
02:02:30,280 --> 02:02:32,800
Speaker 1: the right front fender and you didn't call me. It

2359
02:02:32,840 --> 02:02:37,080
Speaker 1: was both hilarious and poignant at the same time. Weasels

2360
02:02:37,120 --> 02:02:40,080
Speaker 1: ripped my flesh. Oh yeah, all right, Okay, I think

2361
02:02:40,120 --> 02:02:43,360
Speaker 1: we've covered it, So Tom until next time. Hopefully I

2362
02:02:43,400 --> 02:02:47,840
Speaker 1: see you soon. When this COVID insanity ends. It's ending

2363
02:02:48,080 --> 02:02:50,600
Speaker 1: at least here, I really think. So it's exciting to

2364
02:02:50,720 --> 02:02:52,520
Speaker 1: come back to New York and see the city filling

2365
02:02:52,600 --> 02:02:54,800
Speaker 1: up and coming alive, and all these people have vaccinated.

2366
02:02:54,960 --> 02:02:57,720
Speaker 1: So that's how let's hope. So well, you know, the

2367
02:02:57,760 --> 02:03:00,920
Speaker 1: story of the people moving a way turned out to

2368
02:03:00,920 --> 02:03:03,720
Speaker 1: be untrue. Yes, there were wealthy people who went to

2369
02:03:03,720 --> 02:03:07,120
Speaker 1: their country houses, but as far as people moving permanently

2370
02:03:07,240 --> 02:03:11,880
Speaker 1: didn't happen. Do you believe the issue of offices is

2371
02:03:11,960 --> 02:03:14,320
Speaker 1: a real thing or not a thing? Are people gonna

2372
02:03:14,360 --> 02:03:16,000
Speaker 1: end up coming to the office or are they gonna

2373
02:03:16,040 --> 02:03:19,520
Speaker 1: work remotely? Yeah? I think uh, I think they are.

2374
02:03:19,600 --> 02:03:22,000
Speaker 1: I think there's probably a combination of both. Maybe people

2375
02:03:22,000 --> 02:03:24,920
Speaker 1: don't need as much office space as they want. I mean,

2376
02:03:25,920 --> 02:03:28,240
Speaker 1: you know, the sixth Avenue was like a morgue now,

2377
02:03:28,280 --> 02:03:31,200
Speaker 1: but I think you're the people going in. People that

2378
02:03:31,240 --> 02:03:33,480
Speaker 1: I talked to say we're going back in September, or

2379
02:03:33,480 --> 02:03:35,520
Speaker 1: we're gonna try it in June. You know, you see

2380
02:03:35,520 --> 02:03:37,720
Speaker 1: people like Netflix and Amazon saying we want everyone in

2381
02:03:37,760 --> 02:03:40,520
Speaker 1: the office. If you're in a creative business, I don't

2382
02:03:40,560 --> 02:03:42,360
Speaker 1: see how you can do it. It's amazing to me

2383
02:03:42,440 --> 02:03:44,000
Speaker 1: that people have been able to do what they've done

2384
02:03:44,000 --> 02:03:47,520
Speaker 1: with Zoom and Blue Jeans through this whole pandemic. God

2385
02:03:47,560 --> 02:03:50,000
Speaker 1: help us that we didn't have the internet. But I

2386
02:03:50,040 --> 02:03:53,360
Speaker 1: think I don't know. You know, New York City, the

2387
02:03:53,400 --> 02:03:55,840
Speaker 1: whole concept of the idea of New York City was

2388
02:03:55,880 --> 02:04:00,680
Speaker 1: based on the idea congestion is good, you know, be together,

2389
02:04:00,880 --> 02:04:02,760
Speaker 1: be all jammed up, and good things will come out

2390
02:04:02,760 --> 02:04:05,680
Speaker 1: of that. And you'll run into people, you know. I

2391
02:04:06,120 --> 02:04:07,920
Speaker 1: don't think New York is gonna die, but it's it's

2392
02:04:07,920 --> 02:04:11,840
Speaker 1: in for some tough times. But some people must want

2393
02:04:11,880 --> 02:04:13,480
Speaker 1: to be back to work. If if you if you're

2394
02:04:13,760 --> 02:04:17,920
Speaker 1: vaccinated and everything is safe, and this thing's disappeared, you know,

2395
02:04:18,320 --> 02:04:19,760
Speaker 1: you just might want to get back and be with

2396
02:04:19,800 --> 02:04:23,520
Speaker 1: other people. What about Manhattan itself? When you were living

2397
02:04:23,520 --> 02:04:26,400
Speaker 1: in graduate school, you could be of lower income and

2398
02:04:26,440 --> 02:04:30,120
Speaker 1: live in Manhattan. That doesn't happen anymore. Well, what's happening now?

2399
02:04:30,320 --> 02:04:33,800
Speaker 1: At least I hope I'm seeing I you see all

2400
02:04:33,840 --> 02:04:36,320
Speaker 1: these storefronts they're out of you know, there there's no

2401
02:04:36,360 --> 02:04:40,320
Speaker 1: one in them anymore. And all these uh, all these

2402
02:04:40,360 --> 02:04:43,280
Speaker 1: rental buildings that they've over built, rents are going down.

2403
02:04:43,960 --> 02:04:46,920
Speaker 1: Maybe that maybe Manhattan is gonna be the new Williamsburg.

2404
02:04:47,280 --> 02:04:51,680
Speaker 1: I don't know. You could be a young artist and

2405
02:04:52,200 --> 02:04:54,040
Speaker 1: moved to New York again because things will be cheaper

2406
02:04:54,040 --> 02:04:57,680
Speaker 1: asked for those stores and those restaurants. Young people are

2407
02:04:57,680 --> 02:05:00,560
Speaker 1: gonna come in with new concepts. They got lower rents

2408
02:05:00,840 --> 02:05:03,040
Speaker 1: and they're gonna figure something cool out. There's gonna be

2409
02:05:03,080 --> 02:05:05,920
Speaker 1: a whole new thing. That's what I'm cat. That's sort

2410
02:05:05,920 --> 02:05:08,760
Speaker 1: of my dream that there's gonna be a great reincarnation

2411
02:05:09,160 --> 02:05:11,560
Speaker 1: that there are in twenty twenties. You know, maybe it's

2412
02:05:11,560 --> 02:05:14,560
Speaker 1: maybe it's maybe it's that's what's in store for us. Well,

2413
02:05:14,600 --> 02:05:17,240
Speaker 1: I think economically we're definitely coming back, you know, in

2414
02:05:17,360 --> 02:05:19,680
Speaker 1: terms of the buildings to the buildings have to be

2415
02:05:20,760 --> 02:05:22,800
Speaker 1: the companies who on the buildings have to go bankrupt

2416
02:05:23,040 --> 02:05:25,000
Speaker 1: and the bank's take them back and resell them so

2417
02:05:25,040 --> 02:05:27,160
Speaker 1: they can rent at a lower level. Because some people

2418
02:05:27,160 --> 02:05:30,320
Speaker 1: bought these buildings at such inflated prices that you know,

2419
02:05:30,360 --> 02:05:33,640
Speaker 1: the storefronts, they can only lower the price so far. Yeah,

2420
02:05:33,720 --> 02:05:36,560
Speaker 1: I think that's what's gonna happen. Everything's gonna, you know,

2421
02:05:37,120 --> 02:05:40,400
Speaker 1: prices to jimmy down. And because a lot of people,

2422
02:05:40,400 --> 02:05:42,200
Speaker 1: no matter what happens, they're not gonna need as many

2423
02:05:42,200 --> 02:05:45,040
Speaker 1: floors as they've had before probably, So there's gonna be

2424
02:05:45,080 --> 02:05:47,800
Speaker 1: a surplus of rents and the people who are coming

2425
02:05:47,800 --> 02:05:51,200
Speaker 1: in are gonna want to renegotiate their deals lower. I

2426
02:05:51,280 --> 02:05:53,720
Speaker 1: just hope that when you look, go through midtown. You

2427
02:05:53,800 --> 02:05:56,040
Speaker 1: see all that retail that exists on the ground floor

2428
02:05:56,080 --> 02:05:59,200
Speaker 1: of the restaurants, the shoe stores and everything else. I

2429
02:05:59,280 --> 02:06:01,480
Speaker 1: just really worry are all those people because they through

2430
02:06:01,520 --> 02:06:04,960
Speaker 1: this whole COVID thing, They've had absolutely nobody there. It

2431
02:06:05,080 --> 02:06:08,440
Speaker 1: was like a ghost town. It's amazing how many companies

2432
02:06:08,480 --> 02:06:10,080
Speaker 1: going out of business. Like you go to a web site,

2433
02:06:10,080 --> 02:06:12,360
Speaker 1: well I want to. I remember it's like the hiking

2434
02:06:12,400 --> 02:06:14,240
Speaker 1: store and whist l A been there. My whole life

2435
02:06:14,560 --> 02:06:18,040
Speaker 1: just went. And it's like the last of that type. Okay,

2436
02:06:18,040 --> 02:06:19,640
Speaker 1: what's your take on l A, Because you do have

2437
02:06:19,680 --> 02:06:22,280
Speaker 1: a house in l A. I saw that. I got

2438
02:06:22,400 --> 02:06:25,840
Speaker 1: up in Santa herber Now, so you're in Montecito, Okay,

2439
02:06:26,200 --> 02:06:28,920
Speaker 1: how often are you in Monito? Well, usually two months

2440
02:06:28,960 --> 02:06:30,880
Speaker 1: a year. But I did eight of the eight of

2441
02:06:30,920 --> 02:06:34,800
Speaker 1: the uh I called him now the pandemic months. I

2442
02:06:34,840 --> 02:06:36,920
Speaker 1: did eight of them there, and I gotta say, I

2443
02:06:36,920 --> 02:06:40,400
Speaker 1: fell in love with California all over again. And you know,

2444
02:06:40,560 --> 02:06:42,160
Speaker 1: I just got out of that big place I'm up

2445
02:06:42,160 --> 02:06:45,360
Speaker 1: on up on a mountain in a wildfire zone. But

2446
02:06:45,480 --> 02:06:49,280
Speaker 1: it was it was nice. It was you know, se

2447
02:06:49,400 --> 02:06:52,000
Speaker 1: the season change, not traveling, it was it was like

2448
02:06:52,360 --> 02:06:54,280
Speaker 1: there was a silver lining to it all. But I

2449
02:06:54,560 --> 02:06:58,080
Speaker 1: I I fell back in love with California. You know,

2450
02:06:58,240 --> 02:07:00,440
Speaker 1: I love one thing I love about California and is

2451
02:07:00,480 --> 02:07:02,760
Speaker 1: all the East Coast bullshit doesn't exist. No one ever

2452
02:07:02,800 --> 02:07:04,640
Speaker 1: asked you what you got on your S A T S.

2453
02:07:04,680 --> 02:07:08,240
Speaker 1: Where you went to college. Everybody's so full of ship

2454
02:07:08,360 --> 02:07:10,280
Speaker 1: that if you come from the East Coast it's great,

2455
02:07:11,120 --> 02:07:14,080
Speaker 1: everybody's gonna make it and all this other stuff. I mean,

2456
02:07:14,080 --> 02:07:17,720
Speaker 1: when you're playing an elite level, it's certainly something different. Okay, Tom,

2457
02:07:17,760 --> 02:07:20,240
Speaker 1: I'll let you go. This has been great. That's terrific.

2458
02:07:20,280 --> 02:07:22,840
Speaker 1: Bob Okay, really enjoyed myself. I got to see you.

2459
02:07:23,120 --> 02:07:26,280
Speaker 1: You're back until next time. This is Bob left sles