WEBVTT - Conning with the Stars: Anna Delvey, Voting Rationally, and the Maine Nebraska model 0:00:15.604 --> 0:00:26.964 Pushkin. Welcome back to Risky Business, our podcast about making 0:00:27.044 --> 0:00:29.684 better decisions. I'm Maria Kannakova. 0:00:29.404 --> 0:00:33.204 And I'm Nate Silver. Today we're talking about somebody named 0:00:33.244 --> 0:00:36.724 Anna Delvi, who I am apparently supposed to have heard of. 0:00:38.004 --> 0:00:41.644 Anna as she likes to be known, delve as I 0:00:41.724 --> 0:00:46.764 will be calling her Anna Sorokan a con artist, convicted 0:00:47.004 --> 0:00:50.444 con artist who has found her way to dancing with 0:00:50.604 --> 0:00:51.164 the stars. 0:00:51.364 --> 0:00:54.524 This week and after we talk about this kinn artist 0:00:54.564 --> 0:00:56.284 that I've never heard of, will talk about a different 0:00:56.324 --> 0:00:58.044 type of con politics. 0:00:58.284 --> 0:01:00.844 All right, let's do it. I'm excited to get started. 0:01:05.484 --> 0:01:10.004 So so first up, Nate, are you really were you 0:01:10.164 --> 0:01:12.404 just like hamming it up a tiny bit for the 0:01:12.444 --> 0:01:15.884 podcast or do you really not know who Anna Delvy is. 0:01:16.524 --> 0:01:19.564 I'm a man of a medium number of interests. Right. 0:01:19.684 --> 0:01:22.924 I know about poker. I know about several of the 0:01:22.924 --> 0:01:26.444 sports quite well. Right. I know about restaurants. I know 0:01:26.444 --> 0:01:28.724 about Curb your enthusiasm. I know a little bit about 0:01:28.884 --> 0:01:31.284 mid century modern architecture. I do not know who the 0:01:31.324 --> 0:01:33.444 fuck this person that was a curveball. 0:01:33.524 --> 0:01:35.564 I love that. I love that you just kind of 0:01:35.844 --> 0:01:40.044 threw in mid century modern architecture amazing. All right, So 0:01:40.764 --> 0:01:46.924 let's let's give a little primer on Anna, and I 0:01:46.964 --> 0:01:49.284 won't go I'm assuming that most of our listeners do 0:01:49.404 --> 0:01:51.484 know who she is, but I'll give I'll give you 0:01:51.524 --> 0:01:54.364 the rundown. So, first of all, her name is not 0:01:54.604 --> 0:01:58.284 Anna Delviy, and I'm actually really really pissed that in 0:01:58.364 --> 0:02:01.924 absolutely every single media source she's called Anna Delvy, which 0:02:02.004 --> 0:02:05.684 is her con artist name. Her actual name is Anna 0:02:05.844 --> 0:02:10.484 Sorokan bites from Moscow, not an era from Germany the 0:02:10.524 --> 0:02:14.204 way that she has always portrayed herself to be. But 0:02:14.324 --> 0:02:17.204 she is someone who is a grifter who ended up 0:02:17.244 --> 0:02:21.884 scanming New York High society out of hundreds of thousands 0:02:21.924 --> 0:02:26.004 of dollars, including fraudulent bank loans, and all of these 0:02:26.044 --> 0:02:29.644 things predicated on her being an heiress to this fortune. 0:02:29.804 --> 0:02:32.364 She said that she was going to start this cultural 0:02:32.844 --> 0:02:35.564 arts club that was going to be nate you know 0:02:35.604 --> 0:02:37.244 a little bit about art. So she was going to 0:02:37.284 --> 0:02:40.284 be exhibiting people like Cindy Sherman. Right, So threw she 0:02:40.364 --> 0:02:42.124 threw the big guns at it. She said, you know, 0:02:42.404 --> 0:02:44.644 I've got all this money and we're gonna we're gonna 0:02:44.644 --> 0:02:46.604 have a private member's only club. We're going to have 0:02:46.644 --> 0:02:49.524 Cindy Sherman exhibits. I mean, we're going to have the 0:02:49.564 --> 0:02:52.524 best restaurant in New York. This is going to be amazing. 0:02:52.964 --> 0:02:55.844 She weaseled her way into New York society by very 0:02:55.964 --> 0:03:01.484 very clever use of Instagram, social media, connecting herself to 0:03:01.524 --> 0:03:08.324 the highest kind of social cachet people. And she befriended 0:03:08.564 --> 0:03:12.804 this woman, Rachel Williams, who at that point was a 0:03:12.844 --> 0:03:15.684 photo editor. I believe I might be getting her title 0:03:15.684 --> 0:03:18.644 wrong at Vanity Fair, but she was a photographer, you know, 0:03:18.724 --> 0:03:22.324 photo editor person there. And Rachel was the one who 0:03:22.404 --> 0:03:26.404 ended up bringing her down because she went on a 0:03:26.444 --> 0:03:30.004 trip with her to Morocco that Anna said was part 0:03:30.124 --> 0:03:33.844 of kind of this whole thing that she was doing 0:03:34.524 --> 0:03:37.524 to raise money for the foundation, and Rachel ended up 0:03:37.524 --> 0:03:41.124 getting saddled with the bill sixty two thousand dollars, which 0:03:41.204 --> 0:03:45.244 was more than her annual salary, and she was not 0:03:45.364 --> 0:03:47.884 able to get this money back from Anna. She got pissed. 0:03:47.884 --> 0:03:49.844 She went to the police, and then Anna's house of 0:03:49.884 --> 0:03:54.244 cards unraveled. She was convicted. She served time. When she 0:03:54.324 --> 0:03:59.484 was released from Rikers, she ended up overstaying her visa 0:04:00.164 --> 0:04:04.644 was put back into jail and is now out again 0:04:05.124 --> 0:04:08.604 and back in the news because last week Dancing with 0:04:08.684 --> 0:04:12.844 the Stars to make the lovely decision of having Anna 0:04:13.124 --> 0:04:15.644 Sorokan on their show. 0:04:17.004 --> 0:04:20.324 I did that's in preparation the performance. I thought that 0:04:20.404 --> 0:04:21.084 was mediocre. 0:04:21.164 --> 0:04:23.724 But again I'm not very mediocre. It was very mediocre. 0:04:23.724 --> 0:04:26.444 I inspired. You had your moment in the fifteen minutes 0:04:26.444 --> 0:04:29.684 of fame, your fourteenth out of fifteenth minute. Use it better? 0:04:29.764 --> 0:04:33.044 Anna psoric and what's her name? And by the way, 0:04:33.044 --> 0:04:37.364 all about this decision by Dancing with the Stars, Yeah, 0:04:37.444 --> 0:04:40.124 how do I buy my employer ABC News? 0:04:41.044 --> 0:04:43.884 I mean, I think it's horrific. I do not think 0:04:43.964 --> 0:04:46.804 that con artists deserve to be given that sort of 0:04:46.804 --> 0:04:50.284 a platform. People are like, oh, she deserves a second chance. 0:04:50.364 --> 0:04:56.444 Absolutely fucking not. I have dealt with so many con 0:04:56.524 --> 0:05:01.644 artists over the years, and they do not go straight. 0:05:02.164 --> 0:05:06.044 She has expressed zero remorse, In fact, the opposite. She said, 0:05:06.524 --> 0:05:10.084 I am not sorry for anything I've done. She feels 0:05:10.124 --> 0:05:13.444 like she completely deserves it. She has profited off of 0:05:13.484 --> 0:05:17.204 her story, and I understand that networks are out there 0:05:17.244 --> 0:05:19.964 to make profit and to make some money, but like, 0:05:20.324 --> 0:05:25.804 give me a break. Moscow skeazy con artists, like there 0:05:25.844 --> 0:05:29.444 are better people to give your platform too. And I 0:05:29.564 --> 0:05:32.564 just I'm begging everyone listening, and I'm begging the media 0:05:32.644 --> 0:05:36.244 to stop calling her Anna Delvy. This is not respect 0:05:36.364 --> 0:05:38.724 for something that you know, Oh, this is a name 0:05:38.724 --> 0:05:41.364 that she wants to be called by. No, absolutely not. 0:05:41.404 --> 0:05:46.284 It's like calling Christian your high rights are Clark Rockefeller? Right? 0:05:46.564 --> 0:05:49.404 The dude's a murderer. He just happened to want to 0:05:49.404 --> 0:05:53.084 be known as Clark Rockefeller. Seriously are we doing that? 0:05:53.564 --> 0:05:56.964 Are we calling them by their chosen con name under 0:05:57.004 --> 0:06:02.004 which they defrauded people and like completely assumed a new 0:06:02.044 --> 0:06:04.924 identity because they fucking felt like it. I have zero 0:06:05.044 --> 0:06:08.924 sympathy for her. I have zero thoughts that she's ever 0:06:08.964 --> 0:06:11.804 going to go straight. You know, do we think Billy 0:06:11.884 --> 0:06:14.884 McFarlane is going to have a really nice new venture 0:06:15.004 --> 0:06:16.244 that we should all invest in? 0:06:17.044 --> 0:06:21.524 Look? What what would you say? The cultural role of 0:06:21.604 --> 0:06:23.444 Dancing with the Stars is because they've had an on 0:06:23.524 --> 0:06:28.364 other people who have had, you know, various controversy or scandal's. 0:06:28.484 --> 0:06:32.684 Former White House Press Security Sean Spicer was a guesst. 0:06:33.444 --> 0:06:37.804 Ryan Lochte had a very minor scandal. We're involving some 0:06:37.844 --> 0:06:42.204 gas station and was on the show. Paula Dean is 0:06:42.204 --> 0:06:46.604 a Southern celebrity chef who maybe use some some racial 0:06:46.644 --> 0:06:50.004 woods that you wouldn't want to use so much, and 0:06:50.084 --> 0:06:54.124 she was on the show. So what why does ABC 0:06:54.284 --> 0:06:57.804 News feel the need to rehabilitate these people who are 0:06:57.844 --> 0:07:02.364 like not even like that interesting or note. 0:07:01.964 --> 0:07:08.084 People have been fascinated with con artists, and oftentimes especially 0:07:08.124 --> 0:07:13.684 con artists like Anna Soroken, who are people who kind 0:07:13.684 --> 0:07:16.604 of go for the upper echelons of society, right like 0:07:16.804 --> 0:07:20.724 the high society, glamour crime like Clark Rockefeller by the way, 0:07:20.764 --> 0:07:28.964 who I who I mentioned Christian. They are just media 0:07:29.284 --> 0:07:34.804 fodder because first of all, like they you know, they're charismatic, 0:07:34.844 --> 0:07:40.924 they're appealing all this stuff, but also they end up 0:07:42.884 --> 0:07:46.804 conning people who people have they victim blame them. They 0:07:46.804 --> 0:07:48.484 have less sympathy for should. 0:07:48.404 --> 0:07:51.484 Get you know, shouldn't you have something where like at 0:07:51.484 --> 0:07:54.844 any given time, like one man and one woman, con 0:07:55.004 --> 0:07:57.364 artists are permitted to just continue being con artist because 0:07:57.364 --> 0:08:01.124 they're so good at it. I want to create some incentive. 0:08:01.404 --> 0:08:03.964 I mean that has happened though, like you don't actually 0:08:04.084 --> 0:08:07.924 have to create that incentive So in The Confidence Game, 0:08:08.044 --> 0:08:12.364 which was the book I wrote about artists, Ferdinand Waldo Damara, 0:08:12.444 --> 0:08:15.884 who's known as the Great Impostor, who had ended up 0:08:15.924 --> 0:08:19.924 having this biography written about him, The Great Impostor, and 0:08:19.964 --> 0:08:23.244 then a movie made where Tony Curtis starred as him. 0:08:24.524 --> 0:08:30.964 He became ridiculously recognizable because he's like over you know, 0:08:31.484 --> 0:08:33.844 six foot I don't remember six foot four or something 0:08:33.884 --> 0:08:38.204 like that, like very massive, like huge guy, just someone 0:08:38.284 --> 0:08:40.924 who you would instantly recognize. He doesn't have. You know, 0:08:40.964 --> 0:08:43.804 there are some faces that like look like every man. 0:08:43.844 --> 0:08:46.044 He does not look like every man. And he was 0:08:46.124 --> 0:08:49.964 on every single TV outlet, you know, Johnny Carson, he 0:08:50.044 --> 0:08:53.564 went on Groucho Marxist show like he was. He was 0:08:53.604 --> 0:08:58.324 on everything, and so you would think that, you know, 0:08:58.404 --> 0:09:01.004 he would need some sort of program to be allowed 0:09:01.004 --> 0:09:03.644 to con again because everyone would know he's a con artist. 0:09:03.924 --> 0:09:07.084 Turns out he didn't need anything like that, because he 0:09:07.284 --> 0:09:11.164 ended up running and continuing to con long after that. 0:09:11.444 --> 0:09:14.564 So he had every opportunity to go straight. He was 0:09:14.604 --> 0:09:17.324 given all of this money, all of this stuff, but 0:09:17.444 --> 0:09:20.004 he just loved conning too much. So even after all 0:09:20.044 --> 0:09:22.964 this media attention, he just switched his con, and so 0:09:23.084 --> 0:09:26.884 he ended up conning multiple people for multiple decades after 0:09:26.924 --> 0:09:29.644 this saying and the con was I've gone straight. You know, 0:09:29.684 --> 0:09:33.204 I'm repentant, like you're the one person who understands me. 0:09:33.844 --> 0:09:36.284 Let's you know, I really want to like prove that 0:09:36.324 --> 0:09:39.244 I'm a good reformed person now. And then he would 0:09:39.324 --> 0:09:41.404 like take them for all they were worth. And he 0:09:41.484 --> 0:09:43.204 was so good at it that he kept doing it 0:09:43.244 --> 0:09:45.844 over and over and over. So con artists do not 0:09:46.044 --> 0:09:48.924 need any help. And the best con artists, nay, you 0:09:48.964 --> 0:09:50.804 and I have no idea who the fuck they are 0:09:51.084 --> 0:09:54.724 because unlike Anna, they have not been caught. There are 0:09:54.764 --> 0:09:58.444 probably impostors out there in the world right now. I 0:09:58.684 --> 0:10:00.844 you know, we talked briefly, I think on the show 0:10:00.924 --> 0:10:04.124 about therahos at some point, you know, there are more 0:10:04.204 --> 0:10:08.524 Elizabeth holmes is out there. There are more theraphnoses out 0:10:08.564 --> 0:10:10.684 there that are getting the millions of dollars from venture 0:10:10.764 --> 0:10:13.764 capital in Silicon Valley. Like we don't. We don't have 0:10:13.804 --> 0:10:17.004 a problem with con artists not getting a second shot 0:10:17.044 --> 0:10:20.404 at the con. Even Billy McFarland, who who I just mentioned, 0:10:20.964 --> 0:10:23.924 you know, he tried Fire Festival too, and all sorts 0:10:23.924 --> 0:10:28.884 of other lovely things, so you know, they they you 0:10:28.964 --> 0:10:29.804 can't get them down. 0:10:30.764 --> 0:10:33.924 I'm reading a little bit about PT. Barnum. Actually in 0:10:33.924 --> 0:10:36.084 this book, we read the book The forty eight Laws 0:10:36.084 --> 0:10:40.324 of Power I have. Yes, it's a very interesting book. 0:10:40.484 --> 0:10:42.804 Maybe we'll have a little mini segment on it one day. 0:10:43.244 --> 0:10:47.284 It's kind of a slightly evil, very Machabellian book. Two. Yes, 0:10:47.884 --> 0:10:50.844 but it's talking about some of the ambiguities of someone 0:10:50.924 --> 0:10:54.604 like P. T. Barnum, who you know, would reject the 0:10:54.644 --> 0:10:56.524 label of being a con artist. I hadn't read that 0:10:56.604 --> 0:10:58.324 much about him, but I've actually kind of, you know, 0:10:58.364 --> 0:11:01.164 became a member of the House of Representatives or something 0:11:01.164 --> 0:11:06.644 in Connecticut and was kind of rehabilitated into somewhat polite society, 0:11:06.684 --> 0:11:09.484 I guess. But yeah, there it is a spectrum, I guess, right, 0:11:09.604 --> 0:11:10.644 Or is that not correct? 0:11:10.924 --> 0:11:12.804 No? I mean I think there's a spectrum. But I 0:11:12.804 --> 0:11:15.084 don't think P. T. Barnam is a con artist, right 0:11:15.204 --> 0:11:18.804 like he I think that there's a very like he 0:11:19.284 --> 0:11:23.684 sold deception, right he's a circus owner who like this 0:11:23.924 --> 0:11:27.124 was everyone knew exactly what he was doing. I think 0:11:27.164 --> 0:11:30.804 that there's you know, there are people who act in 0:11:30.804 --> 0:11:33.164 good faith and in bad faith, but not all bad 0:11:33.164 --> 0:11:38.324 faith actors are con artists. And I think that there 0:11:39.284 --> 0:11:41.884 is a pretty it is a spectrum, but there's a 0:11:42.084 --> 0:11:47.204 pretty clear demarcation point between con artist and not, which 0:11:47.244 --> 0:11:51.884 is your intention to take advantage of people for your 0:11:51.884 --> 0:11:58.324 own personal benefit without their awareness. Obviously you mentioned machiavelian 0:11:58.604 --> 0:12:01.364 so it is incredibly Machupelian. And in fact, you know 0:12:01.404 --> 0:12:04.404 out of the dark triad of traits that con artists 0:12:04.444 --> 0:12:10.404 often have, So that's psychopathy, narcissism, and machubelianism. Psychopathy is 0:12:10.444 --> 0:12:14.124 the least common just because it's the least common in society. 0:12:14.564 --> 0:12:18.684 Narcissism is kind of this not just this sense of 0:12:19.084 --> 0:12:23.764 a grandized self, but also this sense of I deserve right, 0:12:23.844 --> 0:12:25.684 So like I deserve all of this, so I'm not 0:12:25.724 --> 0:12:28.484 doing anything wrong, like I'm just taking what is mine, 0:12:28.524 --> 0:12:30.844 what I deserve. And then there's the one that con 0:12:30.924 --> 0:12:33.404 artists most commonly have. In fact, I would argue that 0:12:33.484 --> 0:12:37.004 you cannot be a successful con artist without this, and 0:12:37.044 --> 0:12:42.164 that's machiavellianism, which is the ability to get people to 0:12:42.244 --> 0:12:44.564 do what you want them to do, but they think 0:12:44.604 --> 0:12:46.644 it's their own idea, right, So you're very good at 0:12:46.724 --> 0:12:50.044 kind of planting the seeds in their mind that they think, oh, 0:12:50.164 --> 0:12:52.204 this is what I should do, but really it's coming 0:12:52.244 --> 0:12:54.804 from you. So you manipulate them. But you're not seen 0:12:55.044 --> 0:12:59.404 as manipulative. You're seen as charismatic, which is Machiavelli's whole thing. 0:12:59.924 --> 0:13:04.924 And so that intent to knowingly deceive, to take advantage 0:13:04.924 --> 0:13:07.524 of other people's confidence in you, is what makes a 0:13:07.564 --> 0:13:08.084 con artist. 0:13:08.204 --> 0:13:10.164 What about a politician? 0:13:10.604 --> 0:13:14.644 So it depends. So within every single profession you'll find 0:13:14.684 --> 0:13:18.164 con artists. But to say that all politicians are con 0:13:18.204 --> 0:13:21.004 artists is to completely dilute the term so that it's meaningless. 0:13:21.404 --> 0:13:25.164 So if you're a politician who does normal politician things, 0:13:25.204 --> 0:13:30.004 which is you know, you might exaggerate, right, like you 0:13:30.084 --> 0:13:33.044 know that like you probably won't be able to deliver 0:13:33.124 --> 0:13:35.684 on all these promises. You kind of give the strongest 0:13:35.764 --> 0:13:39.004 case argument for all of them. But you truly believe 0:13:39.044 --> 0:13:41.324 that you're going to make the world a better place, Right, 0:13:41.324 --> 0:13:43.324 that's why you got into politics. Your heart's in the 0:13:43.364 --> 0:13:46.884 right place. Like you're not trying to completely deceive someone, 0:13:47.124 --> 0:13:51.204 and you're not saying something like, oh, like I promise 0:13:51.484 --> 0:13:56.004 to you know, to protect abortion at all costs, and 0:13:56.084 --> 0:14:00.404 then secretly you're anti abortion and trying to stack the 0:14:00.444 --> 0:14:03.444 court to reverse Ruby Wade, you're not a con artist 0:14:03.484 --> 0:14:06.284 because you actually kind of you're trying to make the 0:14:06.284 --> 0:14:08.484 world a better place. You're believe that you're doing it, 0:14:08.764 --> 0:14:11.044 you know, to the best of your ability. You're kind 0:14:11.044 --> 0:14:14.364 of advancing that message. Now if you actually, like, if 0:14:14.364 --> 0:14:16.884 there's a mismatch between your beliefs and what you're doing, 0:14:16.924 --> 0:14:20.044 if you're doing it in a cynical way, if you're misleading, 0:14:20.204 --> 0:14:23.564 knowingly misleading, saying one thing while you know you're gonna 0:14:23.724 --> 0:14:26.444 do another, or you don't fucking care because you don't 0:14:26.484 --> 0:14:28.964 care if abortion is protected or not protected as long 0:14:29.004 --> 0:14:31.804 as you remain in power. Right, you're motivated by control. 0:14:31.884 --> 0:14:34.364 You're motivated by power, which, by the way, is the 0:14:34.444 --> 0:14:37.884 single biggest motivation of all con artists. It's not money, 0:14:38.164 --> 0:14:42.604 it's control, it's power. It's affecting other people and influencing 0:14:42.644 --> 0:14:45.524 other people. If you're that, then you're a politician who 0:14:45.564 --> 0:14:47.764 also happens to be a con artist. And they are 0:14:47.764 --> 0:14:51.444 both right, and I think that there is a big difference, 0:14:51.684 --> 0:14:53.484 and you have a spectrum by the way of you know, 0:14:53.524 --> 0:14:56.644 true believer politicians, right, Like You've got the Bernie Sanderses 0:14:56.684 --> 0:15:00.484 of the world, who I think is probably pretty far 0:15:01.004 --> 0:15:02.764 on the true believer spectrum. And then you have the 0:15:02.804 --> 0:15:05.564 people who are you know, much more pragmatic, who are 0:15:06.084 --> 0:15:08.684 who do what needs to be done, who kind of 0:15:10.204 --> 0:15:12.844 get down and dirty, but they still kind of believe 0:15:12.884 --> 0:15:14.964 what you want. On the other side, I'm just gonna 0:15:15.244 --> 0:15:17.444 say his name, that you've got the Donald Trump who've 0:15:17.444 --> 0:15:20.084 been convicted of fraud. Like I used to have to 0:15:20.124 --> 0:15:22.004 say that he was an alleged con artist, I don't 0:15:22.044 --> 0:15:25.204 have to say alleged anymore. Like shit's been proven in court. 0:15:25.604 --> 0:15:26.524 He is an artist. 0:15:26.604 --> 0:15:30.324 Yeah, I mean, I don't know they sure the election case. 0:15:31.764 --> 0:15:33.524 I'm not even talking about the I'm not even talking 0:15:33.564 --> 0:15:35.884 about the election case. I'm talking about real estate fraud. 0:15:36.484 --> 0:15:39.724 Yeah, that's all you need. All you need is someone 0:15:40.364 --> 0:15:43.604 to what extent. Do people feel like they're in on 0:15:43.604 --> 0:15:45.084 the joke with the con artists? 0:15:46.164 --> 0:15:49.124 They're not, so I think that well. 0:15:48.924 --> 0:15:51.484 With Trump though, you're pushing with Trump. I think people 0:15:51.484 --> 0:15:54.084 feel like he's on my side and you take him. 0:15:54.444 --> 0:15:58.244 No. No, that's the thing though, But they don't think 0:15:58.244 --> 0:16:00.924 they're in on the joke like they actually believe right, 0:16:01.044 --> 0:16:04.044 Like they don't understand that they're victims of con artists. 0:16:04.564 --> 0:16:07.724 I think that people who are Trump supporters are victims 0:16:07.724 --> 0:16:09.804 of a con artist, and they just really you don't 0:16:09.804 --> 0:16:13.444 see that. They see Trump as on their side, they 0:16:13.484 --> 0:16:15.644 see him as a true believer, and so they're willing 0:16:15.684 --> 0:16:19.604 to discount Red Flag's evidence. It doesn't matter. And this 0:16:19.724 --> 0:16:22.524 happens over and over and over. Let's put Trump aside 0:16:22.604 --> 0:16:25.164 for a second and just look at a pattern that 0:16:25.244 --> 0:16:30.844 happens within con artists throughout history, which is that when 0:16:30.924 --> 0:16:32.964 you have and this is rare, by the way, because 0:16:33.084 --> 0:16:36.324 so many con artists can kind of skirt the laws 0:16:36.404 --> 0:16:39.084 get away with it, but in those cases when there's 0:16:39.244 --> 0:16:44.164 incontrovertible evidence, when they're actually tried in court and proven guilty, 0:16:44.604 --> 0:16:47.764 you often have the case where their biggest victims don't 0:16:47.804 --> 0:16:50.924 believe it and think it's a big government conspiracy, legal 0:16:50.964 --> 0:16:55.004 conspiracy whatnot against them, and it's just mind boggling. And 0:16:55.044 --> 0:16:57.604 then you talk to them. I've talked to hundreds of 0:16:57.644 --> 0:17:01.084 victims of con artists. I can give them all the receipts, right, 0:17:01.124 --> 0:17:03.364 I can show them everything. I can be like, hey, 0:17:03.404 --> 0:17:07.484 this pastor who you think is the second coming of 0:17:07.524 --> 0:17:11.604 the Lord, Like the best thing that has ever happened 0:17:11.604 --> 0:17:14.164 to your community, the money that you donated for a 0:17:14.204 --> 0:17:17.204 new church he spent gambling away in Las Vegas. This 0:17:17.244 --> 0:17:20.324 is not a hypothetical, This actually happened. And the person 0:17:20.364 --> 0:17:22.924 will be like, no, I you're you know this is 0:17:22.964 --> 0:17:25.244 a fake receipt. This is not true. He didn't take 0:17:25.244 --> 0:17:28.004 this flight. He's not a gambler, Like, he doesn't believe 0:17:28.004 --> 0:17:30.564 in it. And even if he did, and then it 0:17:30.604 --> 0:17:33.764 was for a reason, and he like the Good Lord 0:17:33.844 --> 0:17:35.564 told him that he was going to make more money 0:17:35.604 --> 0:17:40.364 for our church. Right, so they can just run. They 0:17:40.444 --> 0:17:44.244 just do all these mental jumping jacks. The cognitive dissonance 0:17:44.364 --> 0:17:47.364 is so large that the dissonance reduction, which is what 0:17:47.404 --> 0:17:50.484 we do to kind of bring down that cognitive dissonance 0:17:50.484 --> 0:17:54.524 and bring our internal thoughts about what reality should be 0:17:54.604 --> 0:17:57.244 like in line with what we're seeing, is just so 0:17:57.484 --> 0:18:01.444 huge that basically these people are beyond reach. This is 0:18:01.484 --> 0:18:03.964 why the single best victim of a con artist is 0:18:04.004 --> 0:18:07.004 someone who's been conned before, because they are so good 0:18:07.004 --> 0:18:10.484 at rationalizing away the fact that they been conned that 0:18:10.484 --> 0:18:14.164 they're very easy to take advantage of again, because that's 0:18:14.244 --> 0:18:16.764 easier to them than admitting that they've been the victim 0:18:16.804 --> 0:18:17.964 of this horrible long. 0:18:17.804 --> 0:18:21.364 Con Marie, you want to talk some politics. 0:18:22.804 --> 0:18:27.484 I think we started talking politics without without meaning to Nate. 0:18:27.604 --> 0:18:31.124 So yes, let's take a break from Anna Sarokan, and 0:18:31.364 --> 0:18:35.564 after the break we will talk about Donald Trump, the 0:18:35.604 --> 0:18:40.444 con artist and Kamala Harris in a non con artist 0:18:40.684 --> 0:18:43.204 setting or maybe a con artist setting, who knows. 0:18:52.764 --> 0:18:56.444 Let me just push. I think Trump's a tricky case, right, 0:18:56.484 --> 0:18:59.764 I mean, because, for one thing, the biggest Karne's trying 0:18:59.804 --> 0:19:03.724 to pull off is a stolen election claims right. On 0:19:03.764 --> 0:19:09.164 the other hand, isn't he just promising to deliver cultural 0:19:09.204 --> 0:19:16.004 bash to progressive elites and lower taxes for wealthy business owners. 0:19:17.364 --> 0:19:20.884 I think that if we actually he actually delivered those things, I. 0:19:20.844 --> 0:19:22.844 Don't think so. And I think if we parse his 0:19:22.924 --> 0:19:25.844 different messages to different groups of people, we will see 0:19:25.884 --> 0:19:28.364 that he has said and I actually believe that there 0:19:28.404 --> 0:19:32.124 are YouTube compilations of this. He's given the absolute polar 0:19:32.164 --> 0:19:35.724 opposite message to different groups of people, depending on who 0:19:35.804 --> 0:19:38.124 he's trying to appeal to at the moment. So he's 0:19:38.164 --> 0:19:41.644 been He's been both pro and anti abortion depending on 0:19:41.684 --> 0:19:44.324 the day that you get him, even one day apart. 0:19:44.684 --> 0:19:46.964 So like, let's just leave it at that. This is 0:19:47.004 --> 0:19:50.124 not someone who you can trust to have a single opinion. 0:19:50.684 --> 0:19:56.524 Politics tour event. I'll do some concern, you know, with 0:19:56.604 --> 0:20:00.164 Ben Shapiro. I'm I'm messaging the book very differently than 0:20:00.204 --> 0:20:02.404 when I'm at the Liberal book fair in Seattle. I'll 0:20:02.404 --> 0:20:03.284 tell you that much. 0:20:03.484 --> 0:20:05.684 That's fine, you can use different messaging, but do you 0:20:05.724 --> 0:20:09.524 fundamentally change your meaning and say, actually, you know what 0:20:10.804 --> 0:20:14.604 the river sucks and the village is where all the 0:20:14.644 --> 0:20:15.324 smartest things are. 0:20:15.324 --> 0:20:20.084 I mean, Kamal wild are Kamala Harris uh a very 0:20:20.164 --> 0:20:23.164 left of center platform in twenty nineteen, was that a 0:20:23.204 --> 0:20:24.044 co matters? 0:20:24.164 --> 0:20:26.844 There are matters of degree and then there are complete 0:20:27.684 --> 0:20:31.804 just saying polar opposite things one day apart. And I 0:20:31.804 --> 0:20:34.524 think you're being a little disingenuous just to push back 0:20:34.564 --> 0:20:35.124 a little bit. 0:20:35.404 --> 0:20:36.924 But I think that way, I know more about what 0:20:36.964 --> 0:20:39.524 I get in the Trump administration than a Harris administration. 0:20:40.044 --> 0:20:42.924 It might not exactly match what Trump says, but like, but. 0:20:42.844 --> 0:20:46.404 That's that's but that's also that's the key, right, This 0:20:46.564 --> 0:20:48.804 is what we were going back to with con artists. 0:20:49.324 --> 0:20:53.764 Do they believe what they're saying or are they using 0:20:53.804 --> 0:20:56.124 it as a means to a personal end to take 0:20:56.164 --> 0:20:59.044 advantage of other people to gain power for themselves, and 0:20:59.084 --> 0:21:01.724 that is all they care about in the end is 0:21:01.844 --> 0:21:05.084 power and control to give a fuck about other people 0:21:05.404 --> 0:21:07.484 or about the world. I do not believe that is 0:21:07.484 --> 0:21:10.244 true of all politicians. I absolutely believe that that is 0:21:10.244 --> 0:21:13.364 true of Donald Trump. We have good evidence for it. 0:21:14.244 --> 0:21:18.324 And with your book, yeah, sure, you're going to change messaging. 0:21:18.404 --> 0:21:22.604 You're going to not push on certain points to certain audiences, 0:21:22.604 --> 0:21:25.444 but you're not going to change your thesis like your book. 0:21:26.124 --> 0:21:28.524 But Nate, let me ask you a question if I 0:21:29.004 --> 0:21:32.084 were to, you know, when you're talking to different audiences 0:21:32.124 --> 0:21:35.204 about what your polls say, do you manipulate your polls? 0:21:35.244 --> 0:21:37.844 Do you take certain do you take certain do you 0:21:37.924 --> 0:21:42.244 take certain surveys out? Do you waight them differently so 0:21:42.284 --> 0:21:45.284 that your message changes so that you're more appealing to 0:21:45.324 --> 0:21:48.924 your audience? And you say, Kamala is ahead, and then 0:21:48.964 --> 0:21:52.524 two hours later, without you know, without any new polls 0:21:52.564 --> 0:21:54.444 coming out, you say, oh, no, you know, I think 0:21:54.484 --> 0:21:56.284 Donald Trump is going to win. Do you do that? 0:21:56.644 --> 0:21:57.444 I do not do that. 0:21:57.564 --> 0:21:59.924 No Donald Trump would do that. That is the difference 0:21:59.964 --> 0:22:02.124 between a con artist and a non con artist. I 0:22:02.244 --> 0:22:02.924 rest my case. 0:22:03.044 --> 0:22:06.644 We are going to think. I think, out of all 0:22:06.724 --> 0:22:08.844 the dimensions by what you can criticize Trump, and there 0:22:08.844 --> 0:22:11.004 are many, I'm not sure that's a to mention where 0:22:12.284 --> 0:22:15.844 where he stands out, particularly relative to the ability to 0:22:15.884 --> 0:22:17.924 tell groups slightly contradictory things. 0:22:18.164 --> 0:22:21.444 It's not slightly contradictory. This is not a question of degree. 0:22:21.524 --> 0:22:22.924 This is just this is just. 0:22:22.964 --> 0:22:25.684 A question of inher so she wanted to ban tracking, 0:22:25.724 --> 0:22:27.804 and now she does it anymore and has offered no 0:22:28.244 --> 0:22:30.524 reason for that change from political expedience. 0:22:30.724 --> 0:22:34.364 Sure that that happens, and that happens with all politicians. 0:22:34.364 --> 0:22:37.364 But like I said, if we just label all politicians 0:22:37.444 --> 0:22:41.044 con artists, that label loses all meaning. So we need 0:22:41.124 --> 0:22:43.564 to have it as a continuum. As we started off 0:22:43.564 --> 0:22:46.084 this segment by saying, right, it's shades of gray. It's 0:22:46.084 --> 0:22:48.924 not black and white, but there are you know, there 0:22:48.964 --> 0:22:51.964 are dividing lines. And unless you want to label every 0:22:52.004 --> 0:22:55.564 single politician in history, by the way, including Bernie Sanders, 0:22:55.684 --> 0:22:58.484 as a con artist, then then. 0:22:58.404 --> 0:23:02.324