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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: She was constantly nursing thoughts and dreams of revenge, revenge

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Speaker 2: against her husband, revenge against the vice cop Andrew McLaughlin,

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Speaker 2: and hopes of one day being reunited with her daughter.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the

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Speaker 1: podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career,

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Speaker 1: research for my many audio and book projects has taken

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Speaker 1: me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down

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Speaker 1: with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers,

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Speaker 1: and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true

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Speaker 1: crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both

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Speaker 1: good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the

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Speaker 1: unpublished details behind their stories. I had never heard of

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Speaker 1: the tragic case of former vaudeville star Vivian Gordon in

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Speaker 1: nineteen thirties New York. She had threatened some of the

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Speaker 1: city's most powerful men, and at least one of them

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Speaker 1: wanted her dead. Her murder in nineteen thirty one caused

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Speaker 1: the downfall of the mayor of New York City. Author

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Speaker 1: Michael Woolrich wrote a book about Gordon and her death

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Speaker 1: called The Bishop and the Butterfly, Murder, Politics and the

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Speaker 1: End of the jazz Age. So this book, really, I know,

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Speaker 1: it's a lot of corruption. Deep history can tell how

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Speaker 1: much research that you've done on it. But to me,

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Speaker 1: what I took away from it was it really boils

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Speaker 1: down to the victim. We know now that victims, particularly

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Speaker 1: female victims, can just get lost in everything, all of

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Speaker 1: the media, all of the who's involved, the speculation, the

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Speaker 1: corruption that comes from it. Who is to blame. So

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Speaker 1: let's start with Vivian Gordon, who we know is going

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Speaker 1: to be the victim. So tell me about her from

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Speaker 1: the beginning, what you know about her that sort of

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Speaker 1: sets up her character.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so we don't know a lot about her childhood

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Speaker 2: and younger days. She was born in Indiana in Michigan City, Indiana,

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Speaker 2: to middle class family. Her father was a prison warden

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Speaker 2: in Chicago. She had a tough upbringing. There were reports

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Speaker 2: of her being in a Catholic boarding school and attempting suicide.

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Speaker 2: Definitely had a challenging home life. At one point, she

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Speaker 2: and her siblings were in an orphanage in Chicago, and

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Speaker 2: it's not exactly clear why, because both her parents were around.

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Speaker 2: Her mother was living somewhere else. Her father was not

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Speaker 2: listed in the census. Later on he filed for divorce,

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Speaker 2: accusing her of poisoning him. So a lot of times

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Speaker 2: you children end up in orphanages not because their parents

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Speaker 2: had died, but because they couldn't raise them. My assumption

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Speaker 2: is that her mother was probably unfit and her father

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Speaker 2: was a prison warden, so at this time they were

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Speaker 2: briefly in the orphanage and then off to the boarding school.

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Speaker 2: So she definitely had a troubled youth, but seemed to

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Speaker 2: pull it together, you know, by the time she came

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Speaker 2: an adult, she was She became a vaudeville actor and

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Speaker 2: would would tour the East Coast. She was born beneath

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Speaker 2: Franklin and then met her husband while on the stage,

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Speaker 2: John Bischoff, so she became Benita Bischoff, and they settled

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Speaker 2: down in Philadelphia and had a daughter, also named Benita.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to refer to the elder Bernita as Viaving Gordon,

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Speaker 2: because that's, you know, how she was later known, and

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Speaker 2: that also distinguished her from her daughter, So she was

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Speaker 2: devoted to her daughter, Bernita. Her her friends talked about,

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Speaker 2: you know, how much she loved her daughter and how

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Speaker 2: important her daughter was to her life. But she was also,

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Speaker 2: like some parents, kind of made the mistake of transferring

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Speaker 2: her own failed ambitions onto her daughter. So she taught

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Speaker 2: her daughter to dance. He taught Benita to dance, and

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Speaker 2: Anita was very talented, was actually performing professionally at the

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Speaker 2: age of her around seven in Philadelphia. This caused friction

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Speaker 2: in her marriage because her husband, John Bischoff did not

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Speaker 2: want Benita to be performing professionally. They fought, apparently fought

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Speaker 2: rather badly, and Vivian Gordon left. She took her daughter

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Speaker 2: to New York. They checked into a hotel near Times

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Speaker 2: Square that would be convenient for auditions, and Benita was

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Speaker 2: trying out for the stage because you know, in the

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Speaker 2: New York was where it's at before Hollywood. New York

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Speaker 2: was where you came to make it, and there were

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Speaker 2: a lot of a lot of the stars of the

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Speaker 2: era were actually had begun their careers as children. May West, Fred.

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Speaker 1: Astaire, Shirley Temple, Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 2: So Vivin wanted this for her daughter, and they were

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Speaker 2: trying to make it and then something happened that changed

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Speaker 2: their lives. It was on March ninth, nineteen twenty three,

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Speaker 2: Vivian Gordon was arrested on prostitution charges. It was actually

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Speaker 2: the charge was vacancy. They didn't have There was no

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Speaker 2: official crime of prostitution. Vagrancy was as catch all that

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Speaker 2: included homelessness, alcoholism, but in the case of young women

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Speaker 2: it was invariably prostitution. And they had a special court

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Speaker 2: down in Greenwich Village was a beautiful red brick courthouse.

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Speaker 2: There was a court that was specifically for women and

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Speaker 2: it was a bit of a scene, you know, men

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Speaker 2: New Yorkers would come, men from New York and wo

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Speaker 2: would come and sit in the galleries and ogel the

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Speaker 2: accused sex workers as they were being tried. And this

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Speaker 2: is what happened to Vivin Gordon. On the advice of

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Speaker 2: her lawyer, she pleaded guilty and asked for mercy from

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Speaker 2: the judge. From the magistrates as they called them, did

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Speaker 2: not give her mercy. It was her verse conviction. She

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Speaker 2: should have been paroled, she also had a young daughter. Instead,

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Speaker 2: he sentenced her to a reformatory upstate that was supposed

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Speaker 2: to reform wayward women. And while she was incarcerated, her

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Speaker 2: husband sued for divorce, took custody full custody of their daughter, Benita,

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Speaker 2: and prohibited Viving Gordon from ever seeing her daughter. Again.

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Speaker 1: Let's go back and talk about the timeline. So she

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Speaker 1: and Benita, younger Benita go to New York and you

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Speaker 1: said they started staying at like what a boarding house

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Speaker 1: or a hotel or something like that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I love New York. Stayed and there were residential hotels.

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Speaker 2: They would have short term and long term rentals.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so was younger Benita? She was seven at the time,

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Speaker 1: she was eight, she was eight. How old was Vivian

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Speaker 1: Gordon at this time? Do we know, like in their twenties?

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Speaker 2: Maybe she was twenty nine?

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Speaker 1: Okay, So how many years is it while they are

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Speaker 1: struggling in all of this until she is arrested for vagrancy?

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Speaker 1: And do we have evidence that she was a sex worker?

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Speaker 2: So she was only it was only a few months.

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Speaker 2: I mean she had she had started seeing other men

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Speaker 2: while she was in New York. We don't have evidence

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Speaker 2: other than that one cops testimony that she was a

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Speaker 2: sex worker. She told her parole officer that she had met.

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Speaker 2: This officer's name was Andrew McLaughlin. She had told him

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Speaker 2: she was she was running out of money, and she

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Speaker 2: told him her sobs story about you know, trying to

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Speaker 2: make it in New York, and she said that he

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Speaker 2: slipped twenty dollars into her stocking and then arrested her. Wow,

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Speaker 2: So she told the parole officer. Despite seeing guilty, she

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Speaker 2: told the parole officer that she'd been framed. And she

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Speaker 2: surmised that her ex husband had actually conspired with the

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Speaker 2: vice Andrew McLaughlin to arrest her in order to win

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Speaker 2: custody at Benita.

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Speaker 1: Her husband, John would have reached out from Philadelphia to

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Speaker 1: New York to set this whole thing up. Is that

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Speaker 1: your understanding.

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Speaker 2: That's what she thought he did. He was politically connected,

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Speaker 2: So it's it's certainly possible.

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Speaker 1: So she is arrested and she is sent to this reformatory.

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Speaker 1: You said it's upstate, Is that right?

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Speaker 2: Yes, it's in Bedford Hills. It's in Westchester. The reformatory

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Speaker 2: was supposed to be was supposed to reform women, show them,

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Speaker 2: you know, how to teach them skills that they could find,

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Speaker 2: you know, legal respectable work on the outside. But as

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Speaker 2: as Vivian wrote to her sister, it was, it was

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Speaker 2: quite the opposite. First of all, it was a prison,

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Speaker 2: you know, despite the trappings, there was physical punishment. Women

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Speaker 2: were like hung from their wrists for infractions. There were

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Speaker 2: riots at this place, and there were abuses by the

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Speaker 2: ward and the people who ran it. So Vivian wrote

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Speaker 2: to her sister, you know, this place is supposed to

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Speaker 2: reform me, but it's actually achieved the opposite. There are

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Speaker 2: a lot of women here. She described them as dreadful.

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Speaker 2: She said, she learned everything everything in the underworld I

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Speaker 2: learned from these women. And these skills were actually quite

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Speaker 2: helpful to her when she got to the outside, but

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Speaker 2: not in the way that the authorities had hoped.

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Speaker 1: So her daughter is now with her now ex husband

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Speaker 1: back in Philadelphia, right, and she is released after how long.

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Speaker 2: So she was in and out. She was first paroled

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Speaker 2: after six months, but then sent back for parole violations,

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Speaker 2: one of which was traveling out of state because she

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Speaker 2: tried to go to Philadelphia to see her daughter, and

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Speaker 2: there were other infractions at that point. At that point,

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Speaker 2: she actually had become a sex worker, and we started

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Speaker 2: to engage in a number of other crimes that eventually

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Speaker 2: made her quite successful in the in the underworld.

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Speaker 1: So Vivian Gordon goes from a vaudeville actor to you know,

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Speaker 1: marrying this man, having an unhappy marriage and kind of

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Speaker 1: scooping her daughter up and trying to have a better

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Speaker 1: life in New York, only for it to completely devolve

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Speaker 1: sounds like pretty quickly. And I have no doubt between

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Speaker 1: prohibition and you know, the cracking down of crime as

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Speaker 1: much as possible in that time period. In nineteen twenty three,

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Speaker 1: she gets swept up in something and then just numerous

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Speaker 1: wrong turns based on who she's surrounded by. Is that

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Speaker 1: a pretty a brief summary of where we are with

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Speaker 1: this story up until what nineteen twenty four? Maybe?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say so, I mean into this kind

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Speaker 2: of continued into through the nineteen twenties. It was after

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Speaker 2: the prison when she ad adopted this alias Vivian Gordon,

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Speaker 2: and she started off essentially kind of a pretty conventional

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Speaker 2: sex worker, but she she had a lot of other talents.

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Speaker 2: You know, at this time, this was a big time

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Speaker 2: for the braws in New York. They were the brothels

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Speaker 2: were cool, intellectuals, writers, journalists, hung out men as well

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Speaker 2: as women would they'd hang out in the salons before

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Speaker 2: migrating to the bedroom, and so at the high end

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Speaker 2: brothels such as that Polly Adler was one of the

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Speaker 2: famous New York Adams of the era. A conversation and

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Speaker 2: culture and sophistication were expected, and Viving Gordon had all these.

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Speaker 2: She was very intelligent, she was accomplished. She was a painter,

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Speaker 2: a musician, very well read. So she really thrived in

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Speaker 2: that kind of atmosphere, in that kind of situation, and

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Speaker 2: then she branched out into other ways of making money.

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Speaker 2: She recruited a network of cabby's and bus boys at hotels,

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Speaker 2: and they would steer potential customers targets towards to her,

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Speaker 2: to her hotel room, to her table at the nightclub,

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Speaker 2: and she would, you know what they called. Then she

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Speaker 2: would make money as a gold digar. She would entertain

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Speaker 2: these men and live off their largesse at least as

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Speaker 2: long as it lasted, and then oftentimes after the fair

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Speaker 2: was over, she would blackmail them.

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Speaker 1: Oh wow, okay, And this would have inevitably to tease

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Speaker 1: what's going to happen going forward? Really put her in

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Speaker 1: some significant danger. I'm presuming from a lot of different angles,

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Speaker 1: if she has potentially powerful men coming in in vulnerable

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Speaker 1: positions with her, and then she's blackmailing as in what

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Speaker 1: I'm going to your wife to tell you what happened,

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Speaker 1: or I'm pregnant and you're going to have to support

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Speaker 1: the child, or what.

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Speaker 2: Different ways you know, she would she would hide her

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Speaker 2: mink coat and then you know, you know, accuse the

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Speaker 2: man of stealing it. She would you know, threaten to

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Speaker 2: create a scene and you know the police would come over,

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Speaker 2: so you know, whatever she could do to embarrass the

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Speaker 2: man to kind of course him into giving her money.

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Speaker 2: And then she had she had a boyfriend who was

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Speaker 2: Aklan lawyer who had a clean reputation but worked with

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Speaker 2: her on these crimes, and he would go to the

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Speaker 2: man and collect the money.

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Speaker 1: Did you get a sense from her, just from what

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Speaker 1: you know of Vivian Gordon, that this was a challenge

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Speaker 1: that she enjoyed, she enjoyed the criminal enterprise, or really

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Speaker 1: was at its heart pain that she was going through

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Speaker 1: losing her daughter and she had hardened and this was

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Speaker 1: survival for her or was there somewhere in between.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll go with see all the above. I mean,

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Speaker 2: she did seem to enjoy thrills, she did like living

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Speaker 2: on the edge, but she was also extremely bitter and

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Speaker 2: extremely cynical. I mean, her life had been destroyed her.

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Speaker 2: You know, what mattered most to her had been taken

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Speaker 2: away from her, and she didn't care anymore. She didn't

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Speaker 2: care about you know, she no longer formed these kind

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Speaker 2: of attachments. She no longer had as much of a conscience,

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Speaker 2: and she was constantly nursing kind of thoughts and dreams

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Speaker 2: of revenge, revenge against her husband, revenge against the vice

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Speaker 2: cop Andrew McLaughlin, and hopes of one day being reunited

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Speaker 2: with her daughter.

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Speaker 1: What would have been her likely outcome? Do you think

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Speaker 1: had she not met Andrew McLaughlin and he had if

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Speaker 1: she's telling the truth, which I would assume she is

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Speaker 1: at this point, had slipped in this twenty dollars and

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Speaker 1: had her arrested, would she have gone back? Do you

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Speaker 1: think at some point or did she have any kind

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Speaker 1: of a backup plan that you know of, if Benita young,

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Speaker 1: Benita's acting career or dance career had not come through.

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Speaker 2: I suspect, you know, this was the nineteen twenties, and

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Speaker 2: it was you know, it was very difficult. There were

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Speaker 2: professional women, but it was very difficult to have a

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Speaker 2: legal profession as a woman. And while she was very intelligent,

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Speaker 2: she didn't have, you know, a particular skill set other

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Speaker 2: than the acting that she could fall back on. My

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Speaker 2: guess is that she would have, you know, try to

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Speaker 2: find a wealthy boyfriend who would support her. And you know,

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Speaker 2: she thought, she hoped that this Andrew McLoughlin would, because

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Speaker 2: he was undercover, pretending to be just this rich guy.

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Speaker 2: You know, perhaps she saw him as a potential savior.

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Speaker 1: Now did she ever see him again over this decade

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Speaker 1: after she had been released from the reformatory, but before

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Speaker 1: what happens to her happens.

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Speaker 2: She did not see him, but she did write him. Okay,

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Speaker 2: there's a bit of background I need to bring out here.

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Speaker 2: She's doing quite well through nineteen twenty nine. You know,

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Speaker 2: it's the roaring twenties. Business is booming. There are lots

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Speaker 2: of men around with swollen wallets and swollen libidos that

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Speaker 2: you know, she was able to take advantage of. She

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Speaker 2: even you know, she recruited younger women to work for her.

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Speaker 2: She called them her young forty nine ers, and she

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Speaker 2: taught them her trade. She loaned money to gangsters, she

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Speaker 2: invested in a bank robbery and Norway of all places.

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Speaker 2: But then the crash happened in nineteen twenty nine. She

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Speaker 2: amassed a fair amount of money she got invest in

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Speaker 2: real estate and stocks. All that quickly became worthless and

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Speaker 2: her income sources dried up. Now this was happening to

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Speaker 2: a lot of New Yorkers at this time in different ways.

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Speaker 2: And you know, people during the Roaring twenties, when life

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Speaker 2: was good, people didn't pay too much attention to corruption

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Speaker 2: or what was going on city government or among the cops,

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Speaker 2: as long as they were getting their paycheck and having

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Speaker 2: fun at the nightclubs and the speakeasies. But after the

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Speaker 2: depression set in, people started to take a second look

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Speaker 2: at what had happened to their city during this prohibition era,

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Speaker 2: and you know, started seeing all the corruption and the

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Speaker 2: crime that had happened. And after a series of scandals,

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Speaker 2: the governor at that time, Franklin Delana Roosevelt, under political pressure,

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Speaker 2: decided to launch an investigation into corruption in New York City.

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Speaker 2: And that investigation turned up, you know, judges taking bribes,

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Speaker 2: It turned up some mobster connections. What really shook the

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Speaker 2: city was they uncovered a conspiracy in the women's court

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Speaker 2: where Vieven Gordon had been convicted seven years earlier. A

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Speaker 2: conspiracy between cops, defense attorneys, bail bondsmen, and prosecutors to

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Speaker 2: frame innocent women for prostitution.

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Speaker 1: And how did they do that? Did they have somebody

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Speaker 1: who was a whistleblower or how was it? How do

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Speaker 1: you uncover something like that that clearly encompasses so many

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Speaker 1: people in order for the framework to stay up and

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Speaker 1: they can continue to convict people.

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Speaker 2: So to arrest women, in particular for vagrancy, they would

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Speaker 2: use civilians known as stool pigeons, and they would pay

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Speaker 2: these men, sometimes as much as fifty dollars a day,

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Speaker 2: which was a lot, to solicit women and give them

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Speaker 2: marked bills. And then as soon as that had happened,

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Speaker 2: the cops than Russian and arrest the women. Now question

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Speaker 2: was how did the cops pay, you know, on their

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Speaker 2: meager salaries, pay for these tool pigeons. One of these

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Speaker 2: tool pigeons, he was a Chilean immigrant. His name was

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Speaker 2: Chili a Cuna. He walked into the office one day

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Speaker 2: of the lead investigator. The lead investigator's name was Samuel Seabury.

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Speaker 2: He was a former judge whom FDR had handpicked to

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Speaker 2: run this investigation. Very moralistic, upright guy. Chili Acuna came

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Speaker 2: into his office and said he had a story to tell.

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Speaker 2: He told Seabury and the other investigators about how he

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Speaker 2: had been making his living for the past few years.

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Speaker 2: He said he was rapped by guilt. He wanted to

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Speaker 2: get out of this life, but he couldn't because he

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Speaker 2: feared for his life from the cops who had employed him.

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Speaker 2: He explained what he'd been doing for the cops, and

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Speaker 2: he told Seabury that many of the women that whose

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Speaker 2: arrest he'd participated in had actually been innocent. He told

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Speaker 2: one story about how he went into one a landlady's

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Speaker 2: apartment and you know, asked, you know, said he was

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Speaker 2: interested and having good time, and she kicked him out,

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Speaker 2: and the cops said, no, we need to make a

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Speaker 2: caller go back in there. So he goes back in there,

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Speaker 2: decides he's going to offer money. He's like, sorry, I

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Speaker 2: made a mistake. I really just want to rent a room,

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Speaker 2: and he hadn't even given her money, and then the

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Speaker 2: cops rushed in, arrested her, beat up her husband, who

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Speaker 2: you know, was accused of running a disorderly house. And

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Speaker 2: what they would do then, ascun explained to Seabury. They

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Speaker 2: would take these women down to the women's court. They

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Speaker 2: would drop them off with the bondsman who was in

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Speaker 2: on the scheme, and the bondsman would you know, charge

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Speaker 2: the woman a very high fee, and then he would

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Speaker 2: transfer her, you know, refer her to a defense attorney

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Speaker 2: who work in the same office, and that defense attorney

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Speaker 2: would charge an even higher fee, and he'd said, if

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Speaker 2: you pay my fee, I can get you off. And

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Speaker 2: if the woman had money and paid his fee, then

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Speaker 2: he would distribute kickbacks to the bondsman, to the cop,

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Speaker 2: he'd bribe the prosecutor, and he'd arrange for the woman

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Speaker 2: to get off. Either the cop wouldn't show up, or

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Speaker 2: the prosecutor would drop the charges and the woman would

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Speaker 2: you know, emerge with her reputation intact. If, on the

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00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:06,560
Speaker 2: other hand, this woman couldn't afford the lawyer, then she

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00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:09,280
Speaker 2: was almost invariably convicted and sent to bed for just

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Speaker 2: like Phabean Gordon.

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Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, I was wondering how that was working, where

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Speaker 1: the money was coming from, how these people were getting kickbacks.

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Speaker 1: So that's an interesting scheme. How long was this women's

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Speaker 1: court conspiracy going on? As far as you can tell, I.

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Speaker 2: Would say at least a decade. Wow, you know this

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Speaker 2: was of course, once this news broke, I mean New

351
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Speaker 2: Yorkers were outraged, you know, and they started the FDR.

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Speaker 2: You made a statement, He's like, I will pardon any

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Speaker 2: woman who's been a victim of these heinous crimes. And

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Speaker 2: Seaberry and his investigators started grilling cops and you know,

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Speaker 2: they checked, they found out, you know, they have you know,

356
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Speaker 2: all these wealthy cops who are you know, clearly getting

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Speaker 2: money from somewhere else, and they would grill them about,

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00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:53,800
Speaker 2: you know, where they get their money, and the cops

359
00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:56,840
Speaker 2: would say like, oh, you know I had a rich uncle,

360
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Speaker 2: or I won the money in the horses. So Gordon

361
00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:03,119
Speaker 2: was reading these you know, reading these stories in the

362
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Speaker 2: press and validated whathich she believed had happened to her,

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Speaker 2: especially when that Andrew McLaughlin turned out to be one

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00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:15,840
Speaker 2: of the cops who was dragged into this scandal. So

365
00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:21,359
Speaker 2: she now at last had her means of revenge. Revenge

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Speaker 2: and you know, hopefully being reunited with her daughter. So

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Speaker 2: she met with one of Seabury's investigators. She told her story.

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Speaker 2: He you know, said, okay, we need some evidence to

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Speaker 2: back this up. You know, go back, collect some evidence

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Speaker 2: and we'll meet again. And she at that point, somewhat

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Speaker 2: inadvisedly sent a letter to Andrew McLachlin and to her husband,

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Speaker 2: John Bischoff, the's gloating triumphant letters, warning them that she

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Speaker 2: had you know, that she was going to tell everything

374
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Speaker 2: to the Seabird investigation and they were going to get

375
00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:53,280
Speaker 2: her due and then you know, she would get her

376
00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:55,920
Speaker 2: daughter back. She did not meet with the investigator again.

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Speaker 2: Five days after their meeting, she was murdered.

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Speaker 1: I have a question that's just sort of been bugging me.

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Speaker 1: So she is caught doing something that probably she really

380
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Speaker 1: wasn't doing. You know, we believe her. Andrew McLaughlin set

381
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Speaker 1: her up. She is sent to this reformatory and everything

382
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Speaker 1: falls apart for her, and yet she has never caught

383
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Speaker 1: for every flippant illegal thing she did after that? Is

384
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Speaker 1: that right? She has never caught after that? Why? Because

385
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Speaker 1: she's so smart that she learned everything in the reformatory.

386
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Speaker 2: She was smart She was occasionally arrested but never convicted.

387
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Speaker 2: Her only conviction was that time in nineteen twenty three.

388
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Speaker 2: She was careful about how she did it, and there

389
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Speaker 2: was a lot of crime going on in New York

390
00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:43,080
Speaker 2: at that time. There were a lot of you know,

391
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Speaker 2: very serious gangsters, bootleggers, making a lot of money, and

392
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Speaker 2: they weren't getting caught either. So it was you know,

393
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Speaker 2: the system, the cops. Many of the cops, they weren't

394
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Speaker 2: just corrupt, they were also incompetent. Some of them. A

395
00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:58,359
Speaker 2: lot of times they weren't even interested in solving the case,

396
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Speaker 2: especially if there was some connection back to the police department.

397
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Speaker 1: So the main part of the story takes place February

398
00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:07,600
Speaker 1: twenty fifth, nineteen thirty one. Are we still in prohibition.

399
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Speaker 2: We're still a few years before the end of prohibition,

400
00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:11,400
Speaker 2: so it's still prohibition.

401
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:14,359
Speaker 1: Lots of gangster activity happening there too, because we know

402
00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:16,080
Speaker 1: she's loaned them money, right.

403
00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:18,760
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, Vivian. You know some of the famous gangsters

404
00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:23,159
Speaker 2: Legs Diamond for example, you know she would hang out with.

405
00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:28,720
Speaker 2: So it's still that period, although it's rapidly starting to unravel.

406
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:31,959
Speaker 2: You know, the depression has set in nobody's making as

407
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:36,120
Speaker 2: much money as they were. It's a bleak February morning

408
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:40,200
Speaker 2: on the twenty sixth when a pedestrian walking through a

409
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Speaker 2: Van Cortland park in the Bronx notices a white glove

410
00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:49,399
Speaker 2: hanging from a bush, and he investigates further and he

411
00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:51,440
Speaker 2: discovers the body, Davian Gordon's body.

412
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Speaker 1: How quickly is she identified? And of course what's the

413
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Speaker 1: state of her body? We can start there too.

414
00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:00,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, she had only been murdered a few hours before.

415
00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:03,560
Speaker 2: There was no identification on her, but she was. They

416
00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:07,520
Speaker 2: saw that she was an attractive woman in stylish clothing,

417
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:12,679
Speaker 2: although she had no jewelry and no coat, which was

418
00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:17,360
Speaker 2: odd considering how she was dressed and the weather outside.

419
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:19,200
Speaker 2: So at first, you know, they didn't know what to think.

420
00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:21,960
Speaker 2: They were like, oh, maybe it's a maniac, as one

421
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:24,879
Speaker 2: of the detectives said. But they were quickly able to

422
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:27,919
Speaker 2: identify her from her fingerprints because of her original conviction,

423
00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:32,479
Speaker 2: because of some subsequent arrests, and from those arrests they

424
00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:36,640
Speaker 2: had they got an address. She lived in murray Hill,

425
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:41,160
Speaker 2: which was then is still a fashionable area of Manhattan.

426
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:45,000
Speaker 2: She lived in a nice apartment there in a new

427
00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:48,000
Speaker 2: Elevator building, and when they went there the cops found.

428
00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:51,800
Speaker 2: First of all, they found some black books, some of

429
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:56,560
Speaker 2: which were lists of men whom she'd targeted, some of

430
00:24:56,600 --> 00:25:01,919
Speaker 2: whom were lists of young women, including physical descriptions and

431
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:05,600
Speaker 2: naked photographs. These were the women who worked for her

432
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:12,080
Speaker 2: as escorts, essentially. And they also found diary that described

433
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:14,960
Speaker 2: her life for the last three years before her.

434
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:17,919
Speaker 1: Murder, which I'm assuming is one of your sources in

435
00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:18,280
Speaker 1: the book.

436
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,680
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, so a lot of what happened to her

437
00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:24,159
Speaker 2: came from these diaries. And the diaries were I mean,

438
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:25,760
Speaker 2: it was actually a date book, but she used them

439
00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:28,720
Speaker 2: as diaries, and some of them were very business oriented about,

440
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:32,159
Speaker 2: you know, collecting debts that were owed to her. Others

441
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:35,800
Speaker 2: were ominous. That boyfriend I mentioned the Brooklyn lawyer name

442
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:40,120
Speaker 2: was John Radloff, and she multiple times in the diary said,

443
00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:42,919
Speaker 2: if anything happens to me, John Radloff is to blame.

444
00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:46,600
Speaker 2: He's the one enemy of mine, and she documented threats

445
00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 2: he made against her life. He had a henchman. His

446
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:51,960
Speaker 2: name was Sam Cohen. People called him Chowderhead Cohen. He

447
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:56,560
Speaker 2: was a thug and a thief, and Radloff said, you know,

448
00:25:56,840 --> 00:26:00,320
Speaker 2: Chowderhead can take you out into the woods where nobody

449
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:03,239
Speaker 2: will ever find you, and take your ring and your

450
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:06,240
Speaker 2: ring coat. There were a lot of warnings pointing at

451
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:09,119
Speaker 2: John Rattloff in the diary. But then there were also,

452
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:11,280
Speaker 2: you know, so many other suspects. I mean, there was

453
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:14,960
Speaker 2: John Bischoff, Andrew McLaughlin, there were all the men that

454
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:18,080
Speaker 2: she had targeted. There were you know, some of the

455
00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:21,000
Speaker 2: younger women whom she had crossed. So at one point,

456
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:24,040
Speaker 2: you know, the district attorney very frustrated and asked if

457
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:26,720
Speaker 2: they had any suspects. His answer was yes, everybody in

458
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:27,160
Speaker 2: New York.

459
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:30,480
Speaker 1: It makes it difficult when you have this phrase drives

460
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:32,760
Speaker 1: me crazy. But like the imperfect victim, you know, the

461
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:36,520
Speaker 1: person who in some ways is a perpetrator, right, she

462
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 1: is turning other people into victims. I have a couple

463
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:42,120
Speaker 1: of questions sort of along those lines that'll just take

464
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:45,000
Speaker 1: us down a couple of tiny little pathways for a second.

465
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:49,240
Speaker 1: What is your read on her as a victim? As in,

466
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:54,639
Speaker 1: how do you frame Vivian Gordon as someone who people

467
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:58,800
Speaker 1: need to understand that this was a life, she deserved justice.

468
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:03,119
Speaker 1: She is murdered, but look at all the wrong she did,

469
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:07,040
Speaker 1: and it is difficult, I think for some audience members

470
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:09,160
Speaker 1: to not have a tiny little voice that says, well,

471
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:12,199
Speaker 1: she shouldn't have done all that stuff, you know, So

472
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:14,919
Speaker 1: how do you reconcile that? Because I always struggle in

473
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:16,159
Speaker 1: my books about stuff like that.

474
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:21,080
Speaker 2: Vivin Gordon was certainly an imperfect person, as you put it,

475
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:24,040
Speaker 2: and she was aware of it. She wrote. She wrote

476
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:26,600
Speaker 2: poetry kind of talking about, you know, what she'd done,

477
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 2: and predicting that she would come to a bad end.

478
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:32,440
Speaker 2: She told her friends, you know, someday, somebody's gonna slit

479
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:36,080
Speaker 2: my throat. So she was aware of it. All I

480
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 2: can do as an author is can provide whatever evidence

481
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:43,919
Speaker 2: I have and bring, you know, my own perspective to

482
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 2: her story. And to me, what drives my sympathy for

483
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:55,160
Speaker 2: her was the wrong that she'd experienced, the difficult life

484
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:59,000
Speaker 2: that she'd had that had sent her down this path.

485
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:01,879
Speaker 1: Lots of struggles that she had to overcome. And also,

486
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:04,320
Speaker 1: you know, something that is good for us to point

487
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:08,119
Speaker 1: out is that women had so little agency in the

488
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 1: nineteen twenties and three. I mean, they just had no power.

489
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:15,480
Speaker 1: This was one area where she could have power, right,

490
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:18,440
Speaker 1: I mean besides sex, just like being able to get

491
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 1: away with things, having that sort of business savvy that

492
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 1: she had, even if it was illegal, there were just

493
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:27,720
Speaker 1: so few options. What would have happened with her if

494
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 1: just a few other decisions have been made differently?

495
00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:32,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, I mean in a way, you know, she

496
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:35,719
Speaker 2: turned the tables, you know, from you know, here were

497
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:40,120
Speaker 2: these rich, privileged, you know, white men who were you know,

498
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 2: saw women as you know, somebody that they could you know,

499
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 2: in one of her paramours would walk around. He had

500
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:48,560
Speaker 2: a money belts that he would you know, fill with

501
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:50,200
Speaker 2: one hundred dollar bills. He'd go out in the evening

502
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:53,080
Speaker 2: and he would hand one hundred dollars bills to you know,

503
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:56,080
Speaker 2: young women who caught his fancy. And so you know,

504
00:28:56,200 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 2: these these victims were not admirable themselves, and they were

505
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:02,880
Speaker 2: you know, they were accustomed to getting away with everything.

506
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:07,400
Speaker 2: She exploited them as they were attempting to exploit her.

507
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:11,880
Speaker 2: So there is power in that. You know, you could

508
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:15,720
Speaker 2: also look at what happened in terms of those vice cops.

509
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 2: In a way, she did achieve a kind of posthumous

510
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:25,480
Speaker 2: revenge against them. Her case was so sensational that it

511
00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:30,720
Speaker 2: led FDR to increase the authority of the investigators in

512
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:34,720
Speaker 2: the scope of the investigation. And many of these cops,

513
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 2: some were convicted, most were fired, dismissed from the force.

514
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 2: They lost their cash cow, they lost their money and

515
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:46,719
Speaker 2: the power that they that they'd had. So, you know,

516
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 2: she did achieve this in a way, not in the

517
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 2: way that, of course she had hoped.

518
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, of course. Okay, So we have a host of suspects,

519
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 1: and before we get into who might have done this,

520
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 1: which just seems like the media or the police had said,

521
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 1: you know, it was the entire city and then some

522
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 1: of Philadelphia, obviously, let's talk about the body. So she

523
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:10,959
Speaker 1: has found and you said she had no jacket, she

524
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:14,120
Speaker 1: didn't have her ear rings in and you know, no identification.

525
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:17,320
Speaker 1: What was the cause of death if it had been

526
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:19,000
Speaker 1: just a few hours before.

527
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:21,720
Speaker 2: She'd been strangled. There was a dirty it looked like

528
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:25,120
Speaker 2: a rope, It looked like a clothesline wrapped around her neck,

529
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:29,960
Speaker 2: nodded tightly. She was bruised, but the police suspected that

530
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 2: that was mainly because she'd been dragged. Her body had

531
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:38,280
Speaker 2: been dragged through the woods after her murder. The police

532
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:41,080
Speaker 2: suspected that she'd been not murdered there. There was no

533
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:44,120
Speaker 2: sign of struggle in the bushes, so they believe she

534
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 2: was murdered somewhere else, possibly in an automobile. And then

535
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:49,920
Speaker 2: you know, her body left there in the woods.

536
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:55,080
Speaker 1: Now, so the police did this signal gangsters just blatantly

537
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 1: laying out somebody where a pedestrian is probably going to

538
00:30:58,800 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 1: find them at some point.

539
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:05,240
Speaker 2: You know, certainly, given her criminal connections, gangsters were suspected.

540
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:08,880
Speaker 2: I would say much of the public assumed it wasn't gangsters,

541
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:12,560
Speaker 2: assumed it was the cops that had silenced her to

542
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:16,280
Speaker 2: keep her from speaking to investigators, and it was. You know,

543
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:19,120
Speaker 2: people believe that she had all sorts of secrets that

544
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 2: she might might have spilled to the investigators if she'd

545
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 2: been allowed to talk.

546
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 1: Now, is the corrupt cop who set her up to

547
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 1: begin with, Andrew McLachlin. Is he still on the force

548
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:29,280
Speaker 1: when she dies?

549
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:33,320
Speaker 2: Yes, but he is in Bermuda at the time of

550
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 2: her death.

551
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:34,840
Speaker 1: Oh okay.

552
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:37,000
Speaker 2: You know, this is a practice that I was surprised

553
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:40,280
Speaker 2: to find out still goes on, where cruise ships will

554
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:45,240
Speaker 2: offer free passage to handsome men who entertain the single

555
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 2: ladies on the cruise.

556
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 1: What I've not heard that. What ships are these some.

557
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:53,320
Speaker 2: Of the big ones, they're called like gentlemen hosts. I

558
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:55,840
Speaker 2: think google it, you'll see.

559
00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 1: So Andrew mclachlin's doing that. Is he some handsome guy?

560
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 1: And he was.

561
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,880
Speaker 2: He was very handsome. They called him the Sheikh of

562
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:04,720
Speaker 2: the Vice Squad.

563
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:08,840
Speaker 1: Okay, so is this an alibi, like a for real alibi.

564
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:10,840
Speaker 1: He could have hired somebody to do it. But has

565
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:12,640
Speaker 1: he crossed off the list or do they still have

566
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:13,400
Speaker 1: an eye on him?

567
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 2: No, so he is crossed off the list, at least

568
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 2: t himself. You know, one of the women I write about,

569
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 2: actually I was a journalist and Grace Robinson, who was

570
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 2: the top crime reporter for the Daily News, and she

571
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:27,160
Speaker 2: was all over this case. She just was was everywhere.

572
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 2: You know. I started when I was writing about her,

573
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:31,720
Speaker 2: I just quoted her article, you know, quoted her reporting.

574
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:34,719
Speaker 2: And then you know, as I found her in more

575
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 2: and more places and learn more about her, it's like

576
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:38,160
Speaker 2: she has to come into the story. And so she

577
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 2: has a role in the story. And she you know,

578
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:46,040
Speaker 2: one of her scoops was she boarded the Andrew mcgloughfin's

579
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 2: boat when it stopped for quarantine out in the harbor,

580
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 2: she boarded it, got an exclusive interview with him on

581
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:55,840
Speaker 2: the way back into New York and then he you know,

582
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:58,880
Speaker 2: was cuffed and taken to you know, taking in for

583
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 2: questioning when he got off ship. So he was definitely

584
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 2: in Bermuda. They did not find evidence against him or

585
00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:13,080
Speaker 2: Vivian Gordon's ex husband, John Bischoff. Many people were suspicious,

586
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 2: but there was not. The police didn't feel like they

587
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:16,680
Speaker 2: had anything to go on with those two.

588
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:19,880
Speaker 1: So who do they return to? Are we looking back

589
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:22,640
Speaker 1: at the He was an attorney, right, the boyfriend or

590
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:26,320
Speaker 1: ex boyfriend of Vivian whom she said, if I end

591
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 1: up dead, you need to talk to John about this.

592
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:32,240
Speaker 2: Yes, John Radloff. So the first people they arrested, the

593
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:36,000
Speaker 2: people they believed did it, the lead detective believe did

594
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:40,880
Speaker 2: it were John Radloff and the henchman I'd mentioned, Chatterhead Cohen.

595
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:44,840
Speaker 2: They did not, however, have any solid evidence. All they

596
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 2: had were the diaries, which weren't even admissible in court.

597
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:52,800
Speaker 2: So they booked them as material witnesses and were able

598
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 2: to hold them as material witnesses as unwilling witnesses for

599
00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:01,000
Speaker 2: weeks as they tried to find evidence. They couldn't find anything.

600
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:03,480
Speaker 2: They had nothing to go on. Both of those men

601
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:07,720
Speaker 2: had alibis, not nearly as solid as Andrew McLaughlin's, but

602
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 2: they had alibis, so eventually they released them for lack

603
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:15,880
Speaker 2: of evidence. They were determined. They were desperate to solve

604
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:19,360
Speaker 2: this case because it was such an embarrassment to the

605
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:22,120
Speaker 2: police and they had you know, the governor FDR breathing

606
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 2: down their next telling them you have to solve this case.

607
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 2: He was worried he was going to interfere because he

608
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 2: was already planning to run for president. He was worried

609
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:31,600
Speaker 2: that this was going to you know, slow him down

610
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:35,720
Speaker 2: or interfere with his campaign. So he was really pushing

611
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:38,920
Speaker 2: them hard to solve the case. They assigned like two

612
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 2: hundred officers to the case. They hired the Pinkerton Detective

613
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:49,000
Speaker 2: private detective agents to interview people. You know, it was

614
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 2: a huge case. It was all you know. It was

615
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:53,960
Speaker 2: in the headlines for months, not only in New York,

616
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:55,760
Speaker 2: there were it was the headlines all over the country.

617
00:34:55,800 --> 00:35:01,440
Speaker 2: I found articles about it in Sydney, Australia, Singapore. It

618
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:04,480
Speaker 2: was such a big deal and so they really wanted

619
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:06,040
Speaker 2: to solve it, but they for a long time had

620
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:06,600
Speaker 2: nothing to go on.

621
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 1: What do you think were the check marks on a

622
00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:13,880
Speaker 1: huge media story that this checked off? Because we're talking

623
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:18,799
Speaker 1: about ultimately a sex worker and someone who was extorting

624
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:22,160
Speaker 1: men and I know attractive. Is that what it took

625
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:26,760
Speaker 1: was being wrapped up in you know, this conspiracy. Normally

626
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:28,960
Speaker 1: I would think, well, maybe this wouldn't have been that

627
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:32,400
Speaker 1: big of a media story just because it didn't involve

628
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:36,360
Speaker 1: some prem you know, housewife who had this secret life.

629
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:39,480
Speaker 1: It seems like there had to have been something much deeper.

630
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 1: It triggered people in the media.

631
00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:43,560
Speaker 2: Well, I mean there were two things. First of all,

632
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:48,000
Speaker 2: if she wasn't this obscure sex worker they had, you know,

633
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:50,399
Speaker 2: she was dealing with some of the most prominent men

634
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 2: in New York City, you know, some of the richest

635
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:57,440
Speaker 2: you know, former state Secretary of State, a judge, you know,

636
00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 2: there were these were people of prominence that she would

637
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:03,480
Speaker 2: interacting with who then became suspects. So there was that,

638
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:06,759
Speaker 2: But what really made it a huge story was her

639
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:11,759
Speaker 2: meeting with the anti corruption investigators. That investigation was threatening,

640
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:14,920
Speaker 2: you know, not just a few cops in the forest,

641
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 2: that was threatening the entire political structure of New York City.

642
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:20,480
Speaker 2: It was you know, the city was run by this

643
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:24,319
Speaker 2: political machine, Tammany Hall, this notorious political machine that had

644
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:27,880
Speaker 2: ruled New York for over a century. You know, we've

645
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:30,120
Speaker 2: been talking all about the murder, but in fact, there

646
00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:33,640
Speaker 2: are two narratives in my book, and the Vivian Gordon

647
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:36,600
Speaker 2: and her murders one of them. The other narrative thread

648
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:41,279
Speaker 2: is all about this investigation that intersected and was affected

649
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:47,799
Speaker 2: by her murder, and that investigation had tremendous historic importance

650
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:50,760
Speaker 2: for New York City and even the country.

651
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:53,960
Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about that. I'm interested in Samuel Seabury

652
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:56,440
Speaker 1: and where he comes in, and I know he's been

653
00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:59,760
Speaker 1: involved already. He's the head of this investigation at this point, right.

654
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:03,359
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. So you know, FDR actually didn't want such

655
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:07,240
Speaker 2: a big investigation. He had an alliance with this political machine,

656
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:10,680
Speaker 2: with Tammany Hall. He needed their support, you know, they

657
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:13,520
Speaker 2: had supported him to become governor. He felt that he

658
00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:17,879
Speaker 2: needed their support to win the Democratic presidential nomination and

659
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:20,680
Speaker 2: to win New York State in the general election. So

660
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:24,719
Speaker 2: he did not want to antagonize the bosses. But on

661
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:26,040
Speaker 2: the other hand, he didn't want to look weak. He

662
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:27,560
Speaker 2: didn't want to look like, oh he was, you know,

663
00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:30,400
Speaker 2: turning to her cheek. You know, as all this, all

664
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:33,359
Speaker 2: this horrible corruption was happening in his home state. So

665
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:38,040
Speaker 2: he kind of started with this smaller investigation, but picked

666
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:42,400
Speaker 2: Samuel Seabury, who was, you know, a man of immaculate reputation.

667
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:45,360
Speaker 2: He was blue blooded, he came his great great grandfather

668
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:49,920
Speaker 2: was was also Samuel Seaberry, was the America's first episcopalian bishop.

669
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:52,680
Speaker 2: You know, Hamilton fans will recognize the name because he

670
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:56,880
Speaker 2: tangled with with Alexander Hamilton before the Revolution. He was

671
00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:59,160
Speaker 2: a loyalist. You know. The book was called The Bishop

672
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:01,560
Speaker 2: and the Butterfly, but Fly refers to Vivian Gordon. She

673
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:05,160
Speaker 2: was called Broadway Butterfly. The Bishop was a nickname that

674
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:10,000
Speaker 2: people used for Samuel Seabury, partly because of his his ancestor,

675
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:13,719
Speaker 2: partly because of his his manner. He was just so moralistic,

676
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:18,960
Speaker 2: and he was also very tenacious, and so he really

677
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:22,680
Speaker 2: took this investigation a lot further than FDR had ever intended.

678
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:26,200
Speaker 1: So what's the next step they're trying to call the

679
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:29,200
Speaker 1: list of suspects they've crossed off the ex husband. They've

680
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 1: crossed off the sleasy cop, flash mail entertainer, whatever that

681
00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:37,160
Speaker 1: is in Bermuda. And we could not get enough on

682
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:40,759
Speaker 1: the ex boyfriend who was violent and his henchman named

683
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 1: Chowder inexplicably. So what is the next step here?

684
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:46,560
Speaker 2: You know Seabury at this point he digs into a

685
00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:49,560
Speaker 2: little bit, but then he's more focused on the bigger

686
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:52,800
Speaker 2: picture on Tammany Hall, okay, and you know, the major

687
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:56,480
Speaker 2: graft in the city. The cops now go back to

688
00:38:56,680 --> 00:39:01,280
Speaker 2: Vivian Gordon's diaries and they see a reference to someone

689
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:05,799
Speaker 2: named Henry Saunders who she has loaned money to for

690
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:09,160
Speaker 2: a bank job in Oslo, and they don't know who

691
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:12,600
Speaker 2: he is. They're like interviewing all the Henry Saunders or

692
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:14,680
Speaker 2: related names they can find, and they can't. They can't

693
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:17,719
Speaker 2: figure out who he is. But she mentions the date

694
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:21,680
Speaker 2: of his travel, and on a hunch, one of the

695
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:27,359
Speaker 2: detectives looks through the ship records and finds three men,

696
00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:34,160
Speaker 2: not Henry Saunders, but Samuel Cohen, who is the chatterhead Cohen.

697
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:38,800
Speaker 2: And you know, the man is not actually chatterhead Cohen,

698
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:41,240
Speaker 2: but there is a connection there, and he had used

699
00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:44,239
Speaker 2: sam He had used the name and the passport of

700
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:48,319
Speaker 2: Sam of Cohen to travel to Oslo. And then they

701
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:54,080
Speaker 2: also were able to identify Henry Sanders from his signature.

702
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:58,600
Speaker 2: They matched it to a convict from sing sing named

703
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:02,000
Speaker 2: Harry Stein, So you know, they kind of looked into

704
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:04,480
Speaker 2: what these guys were doing. They went to another friend

705
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:07,920
Speaker 2: from Sing Singh who was Norwegian, had invited them out

706
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:10,640
Speaker 2: to do an inside job in Oslo and they'd borrowed

707
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:13,080
Speaker 2: money from Viving Gordon to do it. You know, they

708
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:16,080
Speaker 2: rented a cottage outside Oslo and told the neighbors that

709
00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 2: they were filming a movie and that they were all

710
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:20,600
Speaker 2: these you know, one was a Hollywood mogul, one was

711
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:24,080
Speaker 2: a railroad air and had some machine with wires coming

712
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:26,000
Speaker 2: out of it that they'd show to the locals. The

713
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:29,160
Speaker 2: deal fell through for unfair reasons. They did not rub

714
00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:32,440
Speaker 2: the bank and so they owed Viving Gordon money and

715
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:35,520
Speaker 2: in her diary she reports, you know that she's you know,

716
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:38,480
Speaker 2: after they return, she's hounding them to try to get

717
00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:42,760
Speaker 2: her money back. And this Harry Stein's a bad character.

718
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:47,560
Speaker 2: He has a long record of not murder, but some

719
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:50,840
Speaker 2: very serious assaults and he's done a lot of time

720
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:54,680
Speaker 2: and So at this point they suspected him, but they

721
00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:57,799
Speaker 2: still don't have the evidence to nail him.

722
00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:01,400
Speaker 1: So what's the next step. Because now you've got see Berry,

723
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:05,920
Speaker 1: who is sort of balancing two different investigations. They've figured

724
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:09,839
Speaker 1: out harry Stein is a potential suspect because she has

725
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:11,839
Speaker 1: by the way, I had no idea that you could

726
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:14,080
Speaker 1: invest in a bank robbery. But she has loaned money

727
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:16,800
Speaker 1: and I'm assuming was going to get probably a pretty

728
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:20,080
Speaker 1: good amount of interest back on it, and she is demanding,

729
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:23,759
Speaker 1: according to her diary, that she wants this money back

730
00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:27,719
Speaker 1: and is pressuring harry Stein and whoever his other accomplices are.

731
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:32,200
Speaker 2: So they get from an unrelated source they can lead

732
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:36,440
Speaker 2: at this point, and it's the police commissioner of New

733
00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:40,480
Speaker 2: York City. His name was Edward mulrooney. He received a

734
00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:43,520
Speaker 2: tip from somebody he never named who it was, said

735
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:45,120
Speaker 2: it was, you know, he said it was somebody who

736
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:49,880
Speaker 2: had credible information, and the tip sent him off to Revere,

737
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:53,160
Speaker 2: which is a suburb of Boston. He basically said, you know,

738
00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:55,680
Speaker 2: he gave his deputy responsibility for running the police and

739
00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:58,440
Speaker 2: said I'm going to solve this myself. Goes off to

740
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:04,920
Speaker 2: Boston and comes back with evidence of a certain fence

741
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:11,239
Speaker 2: named David Butterman has possession of even Gordon's min coat

742
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:13,879
Speaker 2: or has had possession of Vivian Gordon's mean cooat and

743
00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:17,600
Speaker 2: diamond ring and diamond watch and was trying to sell them.

744
00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:21,440
Speaker 2: The cops raid his home and he and his wife,

745
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:25,440
Speaker 2: you know, they break down. They say it was Harry Stein.

746
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:28,800
Speaker 2: Harry Stein gave us the coat to try to sell,

747
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:31,480
Speaker 2: gave us the ring and the watch to try to

748
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:34,120
Speaker 2: sell them. They didn't have more about that, They didn't

749
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:37,200
Speaker 2: know the details, but they were able to provide more

750
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:38,480
Speaker 2: evidence against Harry Stein.

751
00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:42,280
Speaker 1: So what's the next step. It's them versus Harry Stein.

752
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:44,640
Speaker 1: And I'm assuming Harry Stein saying I didn't do anything.

753
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:46,920
Speaker 2: Oh, they didn't even arrest him. They didn't, you know,

754
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 2: they kept it quiet. They knew they didn't have enough

755
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:52,640
Speaker 2: evidence to proscute, so they followed him. They tapped his phone,

756
00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:57,200
Speaker 2: you know, they trapped him. They've discovered one of his cronies,

757
00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:01,640
Speaker 2: who is Samuel Greenberg, who was one of the ones

758
00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:05,880
Speaker 2: who had gone with him to Oslo. And they found

759
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:09,640
Speaker 2: a third guy using an alias Harry but it was

760
00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:15,040
Speaker 2: a different Harry and found him talking to Greenberg. His

761
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:19,520
Speaker 2: name was Harry Schlitten, and they arrested him and eventually

762
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:23,840
Speaker 2: broke him to get the full story. So they arrest

763
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:27,279
Speaker 2: this guy, the young guy, Harry Schlitten, and you know,

764
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:32,680
Speaker 2: after you know, a night or two of interrogation, he breaks.

765
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:37,080
Speaker 2: He says he was hired by Harry Stein to drive

766
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:39,800
Speaker 2: the murder car, and he gives the whole story about

767
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:44,600
Speaker 2: how he rented the car and picked up Harry and

768
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:47,839
Speaker 2: this the same with Greenberg. Greene, they called him. They

769
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:51,360
Speaker 2: drove up, found a spot and remote spot in the Bronx,

770
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:57,040
Speaker 2: and then drove back down, dropped off Harry Stein near

771
00:43:57,160 --> 00:44:01,160
Speaker 2: Vivangordn's apartment. Then they drove up back to the meeting spot.

772
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:05,400
Speaker 2: Harry Stein goes to Viving Gordon's apartment, tells her a story.

773
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:09,480
Speaker 2: He says, there's this guy Greenie who has these uncut

774
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:12,759
Speaker 2: diamonds that he's trying to unload. I want to take

775
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:15,359
Speaker 2: them from him and you can, you know, get part

776
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:18,560
Speaker 2: of that loot. So the plan is that he tells

777
00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:22,359
Speaker 2: Vivin Gordon she's going to talk up this Greenberg and

778
00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:26,399
Speaker 2: while he's not paying attention, Stein will jump him and

779
00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:29,560
Speaker 2: take the diamonds, so it was pretty far fit story.

780
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:31,080
Speaker 2: It was supposed to be like a quarter a million,

781
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:33,719
Speaker 2: which was more money than Harry Stein certainly had ever

782
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:36,319
Speaker 2: had any access to. But Viving Gordon was desperate for

783
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:38,000
Speaker 2: money at this point. You know, she'd written in her

784
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:42,399
Speaker 2: diaries she'd written stony meaning Stony broke. So she went

785
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:45,080
Speaker 2: with him. They went up to the spot, This is

786
00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:48,399
Speaker 2: according to Schlytton's confession, and you know she got into

787
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:53,560
Speaker 2: the car and started flirting with Greenberg, and then Stein

788
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:55,680
Speaker 2: grabbed a rope and pulled it around her neck.

789
00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:59,160
Speaker 1: And this is all over the money that she loaned

790
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:03,839
Speaker 1: them for the Norway watched robbery, which they didn't spend

791
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:05,640
Speaker 1: the money, right or did they spend the money, and

792
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:07,160
Speaker 1: then then they didn't have anything?

793
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:10,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, they had. They tooled around Europe looking for some

794
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:11,960
Speaker 2: other gigs. So they had spent the money. But it

795
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:16,000
Speaker 2: wasn't all about the money. According to Schlitten, it was Radloff,

796
00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:21,520
Speaker 2: John Radeloff, the Brooklyn lawyer who had hired Stein in

797
00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:26,600
Speaker 2: Greenberg to pump off Viaving Gordon. And what was his motivation, Well,

798
00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:31,560
Speaker 2: he had many He controlled some of her investments, so

799
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:36,040
Speaker 2: he had financial motive she had told his wife about

800
00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:40,200
Speaker 2: their affair. I think probably most likely was he knew

801
00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:43,520
Speaker 2: all about her testifying with the Seaberry Commission, and I

802
00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:46,360
Speaker 2: think he was worried that she was going to talk

803
00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:51,239
Speaker 2: about their criminal dealings, so this was his way of

804
00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:51,960
Speaker 2: silencing her.

805
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:55,480
Speaker 1: So what ultimately happens with this case, are these people

806
00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:56,880
Speaker 1: convicted of her murder?

807
00:45:57,440 --> 00:46:01,080
Speaker 2: Not convicted? They hire well Stein doesn't have any money,

808
00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:05,800
Speaker 2: but there's a very hot lawyer. Samuel Leebowitz famously defended

809
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:09,600
Speaker 2: the Scottsboro Boys a year or two after this was

810
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:12,440
Speaker 2: a famous case down in Mississippi. He was a very

811
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:14,640
Speaker 2: good lawyer. He was also a publicity hound, and he

812
00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:17,160
Speaker 2: took on this case because it was such a huge

813
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:20,120
Speaker 2: case and he believed it would, you know, boost his

814
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:25,200
Speaker 2: fame outside of New York, which indeed did, and he

815
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:29,920
Speaker 2: played off of the suspicions that everyone had. You know,

816
00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:32,920
Speaker 2: he said, you know, the cops clearly did this. You know,

817
00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:36,200
Speaker 2: they set up Hart Harry Stein's at Patsy. They're trying

818
00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:38,200
Speaker 2: to cover up what they did. You know. He was

819
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 2: very persuasive, very convincing, and at this point, you know,

820
00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:44,399
Speaker 2: the reputation of the New York Police was terrible. They

821
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:48,080
Speaker 2: were doing a lot of criminal, corrupt activities, so no

822
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:51,800
Speaker 2: one trusted them, and Leebwitz was able to convince the

823
00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:53,960
Speaker 2: jury that Stein didn't do it.

824
00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:55,520
Speaker 1: Nobody paid the price for this.

825
00:46:55,880 --> 00:46:57,400
Speaker 2: Case is technically still open.

826
00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:00,399
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, what is the lesson here for for you?

827
00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:02,880
Speaker 1: What do you take away from this book? Just about

828
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:05,880
Speaker 1: society in general, not even specifically about the case or

829
00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:07,600
Speaker 1: about this woman Vivian Gordon.

830
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:11,640
Speaker 2: Ultimately, I think what this story brings to me is

831
00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:18,279
Speaker 2: this sense of accountability. That without accountability, whether it's you know,

832
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:22,480
Speaker 2: the mayor, whether it's cops, whether it's a building inspector,

833
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:28,520
Speaker 2: without that, things can quickly turn towards corruption, and that

834
00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:30,719
Speaker 2: that corruption is not just money. It's not just like, oh,

835
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:33,440
Speaker 2: they get kickbacks, and you know from the city coffers,

836
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:37,000
Speaker 2: you know there are real victims here, and you know

837
00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:40,640
Speaker 2: we need that accountability at all times, at city government,

838
00:47:40,719 --> 00:47:44,200
Speaker 2: state government, federal government, you know, to protect all of us.

839
00:47:55,560 --> 00:47:58,440
Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the

840
00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:01,360
Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That

841
00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:04,719
Speaker 1: Is Wicked, and American Sherlock and Don't Forget There are

842
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:08,560
Speaker 1: twelve seasons of my historical true crime podcast tenfold More

843
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844
00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:15,040
Speaker 1: give them a listen if you haven't already. This has

845
00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:19,520
Speaker 1: been an exactly right production. Our senior producer is Alexis M. Morosi.

846
00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:24,400
Speaker 1: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This episode was mixed

847
00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:28,319
Speaker 1: by John Bradley. Curtis Heath is our composer. Artwork by

848
00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:32,880
Speaker 1: Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgarriff and

849
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:37,319
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850
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