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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show.

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Speaker 1: My name is Matt, my name is Noman. They call

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Speaker 1: me Ben, and we are joined as always with our

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Speaker 1: super producer. All mission control decads. Most importantly, you are you,

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Speaker 1: You are here, and that makes this stuff they don't

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Speaker 1: want you to know. Paul, can we get a sci

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Speaker 1: fi sound effect there? It is perfect space space space.

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Speaker 1: I can't breathe out here or scream, no one will

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Speaker 1: be able to hear you. So yeah, this space is

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Speaker 1: on everybody's mind nowadays, most notably because of the private

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Speaker 1: industry's entrance into the race to the stars, and nowadays

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Speaker 1: pretty much everyone knows what's on the figurative horizon. We're

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Speaker 1: talking missions to Mars, a return to the Moon, and

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Speaker 1: maybe even one day, the possibility of permanent human colony

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Speaker 1: somewhere other than Earth. Before these private sector entities, SpaceX Is,

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Speaker 1: the Virgin Galactics and so on entered the Fray, space

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Speaker 1: exploration was strictly government business because the very few private

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Speaker 1: individuals who could afford something like this would have wasted

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Speaker 1: like that, It would have taken their entire fortune. They

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Speaker 1: didn't have an interest in doing this. And the Bezos

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Speaker 1: and the Musk of the world are only able to

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Speaker 1: do what they're doing now because of the research and

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Speaker 1: the innovations by world governments, notably Russia and the US,

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Speaker 1: but don't forget India, China, Japan and so on. The

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Speaker 1: I think maybe we should stop for a second before

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Speaker 1: we dive into talk a little bit about the private

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Speaker 1: piece of this of space exploration, because these these people

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Speaker 1: are literal billionaires and they see themselves as heralds of

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Speaker 1: the next great age of exploration. But a lot of

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Speaker 1: folks have a problem with it. You know when we

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Speaker 1: mentioned this a little bit, when we talked in an

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Speaker 1: earlier segment about uh, Jeff Bezos right going to space

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Speaker 1: for eleven minutes, I believe, and it's technically space, it's

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Speaker 1: space with an asterix, it's space. There are a lot

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Speaker 1: of folks who say, you know, we have we have problems.

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Speaker 1: Why do we need to find problems in space? We

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Speaker 1: have plenty of problems here on Earth we can fix first.

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Speaker 1: I don't know what do you guys think about that.

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Speaker 1: I'll give you my take on it. When it comes

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Speaker 1: to the privatization of space and exploration, I think a

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Speaker 1: lot of the problem is that there's a direct profit motive,

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Speaker 1: and there has to be a profit motive in order

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Speaker 1: for any of those very healthy people to even begin

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Speaker 1: to be interested in it. Even though there's that statement

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Speaker 1: by John F. Kennedy, you know, we're doing these things

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Speaker 1: because we can. It's space is seen as this place

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Speaker 1: of scientific discovery and discovery about humanity and intelligence because

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Speaker 1: they are hard exactly. So we've got these ideals that

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Speaker 1: are deep seated, I would say, and especially the American psyche,

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Speaker 1: but largely in you know, everyone the planet over. But

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Speaker 1: then you imagine just turning turning all of that into

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Speaker 1: a way to make money feels icky, I think. But

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Speaker 1: what we forget sometimes is that the the initial space

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Speaker 1: exploration missions and reasonings to read, the reasoning to be

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Speaker 1: up there was not exactly for you know, scientific discovery.

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Speaker 1: They're they're alterior motives there right at all times, like

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Speaker 1: space dominance, like yeah, but they exist concurrently, they're not.

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Speaker 1: They may seem contradictory, Well, figure out how this occurs,

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Speaker 1: but uh, they Yeah, I think you're right. It's it's

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Speaker 1: a noble argument to say we spend billions and billions

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Speaker 1: and billions of dollars just to learn more about the universe.

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Speaker 1: But it's a somewhat misleading argument, or at the very least,

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Speaker 1: it's sewed by propagandas. But it's also it was always

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Speaker 1: kind of propaganda though, right, I mean, the whole boldly

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Speaker 1: go is in and of itself propaganda. Uh. It's sort

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Speaker 1: of a flag waving kind of like you know, ra

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Speaker 1: ra kind of mentality. And it's also like I mean,

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Speaker 1: the space race. You know, we weren't just competing with

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Speaker 1: other countries for our health. I mean, we're literally trying

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Speaker 1: to plan a flag so we can be the first

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Speaker 1: to kind of quote unquote own space. Even though I mean,

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Speaker 1: I know we've talked about this in the past. You

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Speaker 1: can't really own space. It sort of belongs to you know, everyone,

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Speaker 1: But you can sure put a satellite up there, you know. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'll give you one last quick example here. Recently got

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Speaker 1: my hands on one of those Oculus quest VR and

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Speaker 1: there's something you can access if you have one of

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Speaker 1: those called spheres, and in this program, you essentially get

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Speaker 1: to exist amongst the stars for a moment and check

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Speaker 1: out the birth of a star system in the universe.

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Speaker 1: And I mean it's it's wonderful and interactive and cool,

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Speaker 1: and it gives you this real sense that the whole

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Speaker 1: point of learning more about this about space is for

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Speaker 1: our you know, discovery about ourselves in the university, to

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Speaker 1: learn who we are and where we come from and

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Speaker 1: why right answering these big questions. And it's very inspiring.

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Speaker 1: And I think that exists, as you said, Ben, that

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Speaker 1: reality exists at the same time as all of these

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Speaker 1: other large whether it's a corporation or a governmental institution

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Speaker 1: seeking to achieve some other goal. Yeah. Yeah, this this

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Speaker 1: is where we see a lot of conflicting interests and

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Speaker 1: a lot of complementary interests. Strange bedfellows would be a

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Speaker 1: cliche you could apply here, but we also see no

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Speaker 1: shortage of genuine conspiracies. Today's episode, if you haven't read

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Speaker 1: the title, is something like the Dark Side of NASA.

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Speaker 1: This is one dark side of space exploration, to be

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Speaker 1: very clear, And just like the Age of Mercantile is

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Speaker 1: m right during a European colonization of the American continents.

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Speaker 1: Just like that. Uh, we may see a new problem

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Speaker 1: and new dark side in the near future as private

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Speaker 1: industries become the the initial explorers of things. Right like

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Speaker 1: if like it is not is no longer science fiction. Two.

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Speaker 1: Imagine a world in which there is one town on

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Speaker 1: the moon and it's Amazon Town, and everybody who lives

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Speaker 1: there by virtue of living there is somehow an Amazon

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Speaker 1: employee Like. That's not impossible, and we need to as

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Speaker 1: as people living today, we need to have lucid conversations

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Speaker 1: about that possibility. But to understand that possibility, we need

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Speaker 1: to also understand the events of past space exploration have

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Speaker 1: been skewed by propaganta. I'm not saying they're not amazing.

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Speaker 1: They are. There's some of the most important things the

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Speaker 1: human species has ever done. But you might not be

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Speaker 1: getting the whole story in your textbooks, you might not

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Speaker 1: be getting the whole story in a History Channel documentary.

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Speaker 1: And today's episode comes to us courtesy of listeners, suggestions,

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Speaker 1: and questions about the very same thing. Uh. We'd like

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Speaker 1: to give a special shout out to conspiracy realists Wyatt

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Speaker 1: in Missouri, who inspired us to ask what exact actually

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Speaker 1: as NASA been getting up to all this time and

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Speaker 1: who else is involved. Let's start with NASA. Here are

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Speaker 1: the facts NASA, or the National Aeronautics and Space Administration,

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Speaker 1: has created in nineteen fifty eight. UH. It was from

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Speaker 1: the start intended to be non military, UH, staffed by

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Speaker 1: civilians very much, you know, kind of as we've described,

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Speaker 1: meant to be this sort of exploratory kind of like

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Speaker 1: you know, pushing the bounds of human ingenuity and capability

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Speaker 1: out into the stars. Right today, it remains home to

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Speaker 1: some of the most pre eminent space exploration programs in

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Speaker 1: the world, things like Project Mercury, which is the first

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Speaker 1: United States space program to put humans into space, that

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Speaker 1: made twenty five flights and six of those flights carried

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Speaker 1: astronauts between nineteen sixty one and nineteen sixty three, which

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Speaker 1: I guess you could kind of consider the golden age

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Speaker 1: of space exploration. Right. More than two million people from

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Speaker 1: government agencies, the airspace industry all kind of chipped in,

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Speaker 1: combined their skills and expertise to make these projects possible.

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Speaker 1: And to date, NASA's successfully launched over two d crude

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Speaker 1: flights um that includes several historic trips to the Moon,

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Speaker 1: the lunar surface. Oh yeah, and to date, for anybody,

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Speaker 1: any US resident wants a little dose of patriotism. To date,

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Speaker 1: there have only been twelve human beings who ever officially

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Speaker 1: provably reach the Moon, and they've all been Americans. Let's

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Speaker 1: say this, there were have been at least twelve people

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Speaker 1: that we are aware of that have allegedly landed on

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Speaker 1: the lunar surface. I really like that Stanley Kubrick film

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Speaker 1: about going to the Moon. That was some excellent production design. No,

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Speaker 1: to be clear, you know it's NASA was never the

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Speaker 1: only the only operation in space. Right. The Soviet Space

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Speaker 1: program got the first living person space. Uh. Also, the

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Speaker 1: Space program launched space stations before NASA got involved with

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Speaker 1: sky Lab, and then later the I S S which

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Speaker 1: is a multinational thing. But they still were making big moves.

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Speaker 1: And as the decades added up, in the years wound on,

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Speaker 1: NASA and its counterpoints in other countries funneled untold amounts

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Speaker 1: of money, countless years of research and more into this

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Speaker 1: literal final frontier. And No, when you were speaking earlier,

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Speaker 1: you talked about Project Mercury, how there were more than

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Speaker 1: two million people from government agencies and the private aerospace industry.

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Speaker 1: Notice they say government agencies plural. We'll get to that,

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Speaker 1: but just just everybody noticed that part. And at the

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Speaker 1: same time that this amazing, astonishing exploration and research is occurring,

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Speaker 1: the world is struggling with its own earthly problems, some

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Speaker 1: of which are existential threats that remain with us today. Disease,

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Speaker 1: the specter of nuclear war, crushing poverty, natural disaster, and

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Speaker 1: NASA sort of soldiers on surviving these uncertain times. It's

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Speaker 1: portrayed as a political, if propagandistic, it is still a

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Speaker 1: political in its aims. It's a civilian operation, not a

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Speaker 1: military one. That's something that they emphasize all the time,

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Speaker 1: and it makes new plans while the world spends on

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Speaker 1: whatever happened to Space Force? Is that still a thing

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Speaker 1: or that kind of die with the Trump administration. Yes,

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Speaker 1: it's still on Netflix. I think, yeah, it's uh, it's

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Speaker 1: still there. YEA Space Force is still There's the smallest

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Speaker 1: US armed service. Um. It is considered somewhat controversial due

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Speaker 1: to the United Nations earlier agreements about against the militarization

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Speaker 1: of space. Right, you don't have god rods falling down

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Speaker 1: into orbit? Did their guns go pup you? Yes? They

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Speaker 1: feeling can hear you pup there. Yeah, Ben, I think

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Speaker 1: you know I'm I maybe completely wrong in this and

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, but may perhaps you'll be able to see

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Speaker 1: where I'm coming from after you finished this episode everyone,

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Speaker 1: But I imagine that some of the stories we're going

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Speaker 1: to be mentioning today directly influenced some of the comedy

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Speaker 1: in the fictional show. Yeah, yeah, I think you're on

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Speaker 1: point there. This is this is interesting because there there

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Speaker 1: is truly inspiring stuff when we look at the narrative

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Speaker 1: and the story of NASA at at even at times

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Speaker 1: when there was incredibly tense rivalry between different geopolitical actors

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Speaker 1: NASA or civilians working in NASA, we're we're like trying

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Speaker 1: to cooperate with the with their fellow scientists across borders,

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Speaker 1: partnering together to embark on these projects that no no

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Speaker 1: one space agency could probably do alone near as well.

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Speaker 1: And the most famous of those is the I S. S.

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Speaker 1: International Space Station, as we record today, is hurtling through space.

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Speaker 1: We're being about two hundred miles above us, and a

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Speaker 1: ton of a ton of people are involved and a lot,

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Speaker 1: like many of those people who are involved in that project,

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Speaker 1: their job is just to work around the clock to

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Speaker 1: make sure that people on the I S S are

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Speaker 1: able to live another twenty four hours. It's pretty complicated,

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Speaker 1: but it's impressive. It's like one of humanity's biggest flexes

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Speaker 1: a space station. Yes, and you know we only have

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Speaker 1: to talk about mirror, but I'm sorry, bring it back here.

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Speaker 1: Another thing in quest that I literally just did is

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Speaker 1: you can go inside the I S S and like

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Speaker 1: travel through using the same systems they use, and like

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Speaker 1: learn exactly what is inside the I S S and

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Speaker 1: how it functions. It's it's incredible. You get to use

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Speaker 1: the restroom. I bet you do. Oh yeah, I'm pretty sure. Okay,

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Speaker 1: Well keep us updated on that with like telling us

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Speaker 1: how that works. And like we said, you know, we

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Speaker 1: are we are a group of people who grew up

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Speaker 1: for at least part of our lives in the US,

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Speaker 1: and for us and many people listening today, the story

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Speaker 1: of NASA's birth and its evolution is tremendously, profoundly inspiring

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Speaker 1: right now. There are so many people listening who wanted

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Speaker 1: to be astronauts right when they were kids. And then

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Speaker 1: there are other people who chose a career, a lifelong

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Speaker 1: stem career science technology engineering math based on their early

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Speaker 1: fascination with NASA, you know, Star trek Oh all the

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Speaker 1: hits and just really quickly I mean like the propagandistic

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Speaker 1: side of that, you know that I talked about the time.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to overstate it. I mean these are

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Speaker 1: all very aspirational American go oles that did inspire young

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Speaker 1: minds and get people into STEM, you know when maybe

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Speaker 1: they wouldn't have otherwise gotten into it. So I don't

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Speaker 1: want to like cheapen the whole thing, because I mean

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Speaker 1: it really is an absolutely massive undertaking and the fact

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Speaker 1: that we've been able to do this stuff. Um, but

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Speaker 1: the kind of propaganda we're going to talk about, I

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Speaker 1: think is a little more insidious than what I mentioned.

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Speaker 1: M Noel Nol still hasn't been to Space Camp, and

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Speaker 1: we gotta remember that at least not as good as

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Speaker 1: the movie it is. Somebody sent me a shirt, but

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Speaker 1: it was way too small. I still the people from

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Speaker 1: book it, h the good folks of book It and

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Speaker 1: nassat one point book sent me the shirts. That was great.

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Speaker 1: It was amazing. Book It's a fantastic program. Yeah, because

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Speaker 1: reading is a way to travel to your own final friends. Wow,

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Speaker 1: the more, you know. So I think we're accurately painting

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Speaker 1: the motive side of this, you know what I mean,

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Speaker 1: And it is a true le noble endeavor. But there

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Speaker 1: is another side to the story of NASA. It's a

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Speaker 1: version that you won't hear as often at Space Camp

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Speaker 1: or at the gift shop at the Kennedy Space Center.

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Speaker 1: Other agencies working for Uncle Sam saw NASA as more

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Speaker 1: than just this meaningful a political push to the stars.

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Speaker 1: They saw an opportunity and they took it multiple times.

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Speaker 1: What do we mean, will tell you after a word

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Speaker 1: from our sponsor, Here's where it gets crazy. NASA was

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Speaker 1: up front for the CIA and the deal with d Yeah,

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Speaker 1: well yes, yeah, they were there deep with the alphabet

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Speaker 1: in a way that remains um largely unknown today. The

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Speaker 1: Central Intelligence Agency and the Department of Defense looked at

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Speaker 1: what was going on, you know, from from before the

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Speaker 1: formation of NASA. In n like we mentioned earlier, they

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Speaker 1: already knew a good deal when they saw it, and

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Speaker 1: they worked closely with the Space Agency, by hook or

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Speaker 1: by crook to get what they wanted. And they sometimes

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Speaker 1: they even conspired to halt the progress of NASA. And

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Speaker 1: then sometimes it gets complicated really quickly, because what you

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Speaker 1: need to understand is when you're watching those uh swelling

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Speaker 1: inspiring documentaries about uh, you know, a small step for

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Speaker 1: a man kind of stuff, and you're vibing with that patriotism,

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Speaker 1: there is a figurative smokey back room behind those stories,

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Speaker 1: and in that figurative smokey back room, a lot of

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Speaker 1: stuff almost went terribly wrong. And the only is twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty one, right. This stuff happened decades ago and more

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Speaker 1: recently than you think full disclosure, but even now, a

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Speaker 1: lot of revelations that we understand about this conspiracy or level,

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Speaker 1: this multipolar conspiracy between NASA and intelligence agencies in the military.

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Speaker 1: It comes from one guy who has done some amazing work.

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Speaker 1: His name is James E. David as a curator in

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Speaker 1: NASA's Division of Space History. He got ahold of these

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Speaker 1: documents through various means, uh formally classified documents, and he

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Speaker 1: didn't get all of them. There's still a lot of

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Speaker 1: stuff that's under wraps, but he found these documents that

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Speaker 1: talked about what I think we could call an infiltration

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Speaker 1: of NASA. In the course of researching a book that

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Speaker 1: we'd love to recommend, spies and Shuttles. NASA's Secret Relationships

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Speaker 1: with the d O D and the CIA was published

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Speaker 1: in so it's not it's not too old. It's pretty

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Speaker 1: up to date, and what he discovered is extraordinary and

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Speaker 1: like textbook conspiratorial. Yeah, it's really great. If you want

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Speaker 1: to look into it right now, head on over to

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Speaker 1: the National Security Archive and you can read a lot

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Speaker 1: about this book and you can hear there, you know,

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Speaker 1: get some of the stories we're gonna be mentioning today.

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Speaker 1: And I don't think you can get the book here necessarily,

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Speaker 1: but it is worth your time. If you've got a

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Speaker 1: few moments, you can read a book in a few moments.

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Speaker 1: It's very impressive, well reading about it, uh, And then

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Speaker 1: you can go down the rabbit hole of your own

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Speaker 1: leisure when you have time. Well, you just have to

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Speaker 1: learn to read by uh touch right, or read by

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Speaker 1: osmosis and just sleep on the book. Oh snap, Okay,

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Speaker 1: don't don't do that. We're not We're not responsible for

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Speaker 1: the results of your exam if that's the method you

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Speaker 1: used to study. Uh. But oh, totally unrelated to you, guys.

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Speaker 1: I've been thinking a lot about the earlier thing we

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Speaker 1: did regarding accepting people's dreams for ad purposes. I love

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Speaker 1: to I'd love to see if we could use that

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Speaker 1: as a way to teach people through their dreams, like to,

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Speaker 1: like you know, they're have been some things were like, hey,

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Speaker 1: play this tape, learn a new language while you sleep,

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Speaker 1: and that stuff doesn't really work. But I wonder now

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Speaker 1: if there's a way okay filing it away? Can you

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Speaker 1: pipe Do you have a way to pipe in audio

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Speaker 1: to my house? Because like I'm down, let's try it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: let's try it and we'll we'll see. I got in

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Speaker 1: a weird rabbit hole. Uh. Unrelated, but I'm sure it'll

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Speaker 1: come up in a later episode anyhow. Yeah. Congress very publicly,

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Speaker 1: quite explicitly established NASA as a purely civilian space agency.

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Speaker 1: They did this partially for their domestic audience and for

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Speaker 1: the voters right and to inspire people, but they also

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Speaker 1: took pains to portray it as a civilian agency, which

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Speaker 1: it is, because they were more concerned with a foreign audience.

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Speaker 1: They were more concerned with the idea that the U. S.

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Speaker 1: S R. Might here this just here the construction NASA

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Speaker 1: or the creation of it, and then respond aggressively, right,

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Speaker 1: triggering a militarization of space, so no one really wanted

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Speaker 1: that smoke at this point. A series of circumstances occurring,

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Speaker 1: you know that we're already put in place before fifty eight,

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Speaker 1: and that occurred every year since that we know of,

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Speaker 1: this series of circumstances, needs cases, all kinds of weird

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Speaker 1: spy stuff. They they essentially forced NASA to increasingly coordinate

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Speaker 1: with the Alphabet boys on things that we would call

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Speaker 1: black programs today, meaning off the book stuff, not much oversight,

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Speaker 1: a lot of money, you know, the wallets open, let's

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Speaker 1: just get her done. And this secreed with the military

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Speaker 1: and the intelligence communities it most early and the things

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Speaker 1: that we're kind of alluding to here, and we briefly

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Speaker 1: mentioned earlier the organization the National Reconnaissance Office in the

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Speaker 1: n r OH. A lot of this relationship had to

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Speaker 1: do with the desire of that outfit to have better

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Speaker 1: spy technology, better imaging technology than they had available. And

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Speaker 1: one one way when one avenue that they saw as

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Speaker 1: a possibility was to get stuff up into orbit through

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Speaker 1: the space missions. Yeah, man, that's the that's the thing

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Speaker 1: you mentioned. The magic word. This where Pee Wee Hermann

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Speaker 1: conspiracy show. Everybody would be going nuts there. It is

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Speaker 1: the n r OH. The thing is the n r

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Speaker 1: OH at this time was so secret that it didn't exist.

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Speaker 1: It was one of those things where if you worked

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Speaker 1: for them at the time, uh, and you know, you're

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Speaker 1: at a barbecue with your neighbors or something and they say, oh, hey,

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Speaker 1: blah blah blah, what do you know, Alexis Paul, what

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Speaker 1: what do you do? Then you would just try to

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Speaker 1: come up with the most boring explanation ever. It would

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Speaker 1: be like I am an accountant or shooting and if

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Speaker 1: someone calls you on being some kind of intelligence operative,

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Speaker 1: you just say, CIA, it's a CIA. Yeah, I'm CIA,

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Speaker 1: which feels like a big enough secret to throw them

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Speaker 1: off the trail, right. So so the it's it's weird

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Speaker 1: because now you're, you know, imagining someone of a higher

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Speaker 1: level leadership position at this fledgling space agency and then

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Speaker 1: you get this massive info dump like, Hey, a group

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Speaker 1: of people that are kind of our coworkers but don't

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Speaker 1: exist need you to do this thing, and we can't.

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Speaker 1: You know, the code word is uh lemon cello, Like

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Speaker 1: lemon cello, what does that mean? We can't tell you,

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Speaker 1: We cannot tell you anything else about lemon Cello. Just

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Speaker 1: every so often, some people are gonna show up and

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Speaker 1: they're gonna want some stuff from you, and you're going

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Speaker 1: to do it and you're never going to talk about

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Speaker 1: it anywhere, gonna say, anyway, let me show you where

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Speaker 1: the coffee is. Like that's that's how it goes. So this,

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Speaker 1: this cooperation, it's a very real thing, and it's multigenerational.

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Speaker 1: It takes place over decades. It becomes very hand in

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Speaker 1: glove at points. But still these are different organizations. They

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Speaker 1: have different aims, they have different goals, and so there

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Speaker 1: are a lot of disputes that pop up from this,

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Speaker 1: these strange partnerships. Things like you know, the kind of

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Speaker 1: the kind of arguments you might have with any group,

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Speaker 1: right like who who pays the tab? How do we

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Speaker 1: how do we split the check here? Who gets what information?

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Speaker 1: Because these are information obsessed organizations, how do we handle

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Speaker 1: civilian data? Like you're a scientist, right, like like Noel

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Speaker 1: euroscientists at NASA, and you're pretty good at your job,

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Speaker 1: right You're one of the world's foremost experts on something

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Speaker 1: very possible. I get it done. Yeah, yeah, And you

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Speaker 1: know the other six people across the world who are

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Speaker 1: almost as good as you are, and you work together

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Speaker 1: with each other, you share each other's information. Well, we're

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Speaker 1: very we've got a very particular set of skills, so

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Speaker 1: there aren't very many of us. So it's like I

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Speaker 1: my counterpart now, and the other part of the world,

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Speaker 1: it's like we're the only ones that really talked to

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Speaker 1: each other because no one else would possibly understand, you know,

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Speaker 1: the complexities of our of our particular discipline exactly. And

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Speaker 1: so your Tuesday gets ruined when some guy named Matt

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Speaker 1: from an agency that doesn't exist comes and says you

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Speaker 1: cannot talk to your six friends. And then you know,

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Speaker 1: you make the argument where you're like, look, we believe

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Speaker 1: in the democracy of information and transparency, and I want

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Speaker 1: my other six colleagues to know because this will help

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Speaker 1: us in our mission to explore space and we might

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Speaker 1: save some lives. And then and also lonely, and this guy,

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Speaker 1: this guy met is like shut it down, and this

403
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:13,479
Speaker 1: like this is a real fight that occurred multiple times

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Speaker 1: because the the spook agencies wanted data to be encrypted,

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Speaker 1: because they wanted to do everything they could to avoid

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Speaker 1: giving the other guys an edge. And then there were

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Speaker 1: things where the military became self interested. The tragedy of

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Speaker 1: the Challenger disaster was a was a concern right to

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Speaker 1: the military, but maybe not for the reasons you think.

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Speaker 1: Some factions were more upset that the launches of military

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Speaker 1: satellites were delayed and these launches and military satellites were

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Speaker 1: not really publicized. You know. It was also a pr nightmare,

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Speaker 1: you know, and like the optics of it really, you know,

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Speaker 1: put egg on our face in terms of like the

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Speaker 1: whole global supremacy vibe that that we, you know, need

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Speaker 1: so desperately, or at least certain sets do in the government. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely,

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Speaker 1: and this leads to this leads to multiple problems. Part

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Speaker 1: of it is how absurd and surreal the secrecy got,

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Speaker 1: and the need for secrecy was valid, but they did

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Speaker 1: go hard in the pain on it over the decades.

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Speaker 1: The various restrictions, the compartmentalization of information project to projects

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Speaker 1: kept the vast majority of of this story out of

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Speaker 1: the public eye, because again, NASA is meant to be

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Speaker 1: above the earthly problems of geopolitics and military conflict. But

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Speaker 1: if you look at it objectively with you know, James Z.

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Speaker 1: David's research, what you see is that NASA often struggled

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Speaker 1: and failed to follow that mandate. And it's not We're

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00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:54,080
Speaker 1: not here to demonize NASA at all, because they were

429
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 1: their hand was forced multiple times by very powerful entities.

430
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 1: But like, what are we talking about. We know, we

431
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 1: know some of the reasons, at least now that they

432
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 1: had to get in bed with the Spies. I guess

433
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 1: there are reasons why they they had to get in bed.

434
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,840
Speaker 1: NASA had to work with the spies, but they're also

435
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:19,679
Speaker 1: big challenges that the Spies directly gave to them that

436
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:23,119
Speaker 1: freely hampered their stuff. And from what I'm reading, Ben,

437
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:24,919
Speaker 1: correct me if I'm wrong here. A lot of it

438
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:29,560
Speaker 1: had to do with where like physically, where they could

439
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 1: have missions, have training, have like actually send spacecraft up

440
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:39,080
Speaker 1: into orbit. That was a big fight, I know for sure,

441
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 1: because like some things had to be way more hush

442
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:45,160
Speaker 1: hush than others. Then also there was a ton of

443
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:49,320
Speaker 1: pressure put onto NASA by these intelligence agencies to modify

444
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 1: things like the Shuttle. The physical attributes of the shuttle.

445
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:57,600
Speaker 1: It had to be a certain the it had to

446
00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:01,560
Speaker 1: be able to send a certain a size of payload

447
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:05,960
Speaker 1: up and so the NASA had to continue modifying their

448
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:09,760
Speaker 1: gear and their hardware essentially in order to meet the

449
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:14,520
Speaker 1: needs of the spy agencies. Yeah, a terrible, terrible analogy

450
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 1: here might be helpful. Let's say, just pick a fast

451
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:22,200
Speaker 1: food place. Who do we want to dunk on today? Okay,

452
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:26,720
Speaker 1: Burger King. So so we work at Uh, we're working

453
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:32,720
Speaker 1: Duncan Donuts alone. I was rewatching ant Man And still

454
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:35,160
Speaker 1: my favorite line from that is when is just how

455
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:38,160
Speaker 1: in that universe it's accepted that Baskin Robbins always finds

456
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:42,040
Speaker 1: out You guys remember that part? It was? I don't,

457
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 1: but I feel like Duncan Donuts really led the charge

458
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 1: in pre creaming and sugar in your coffee for you

459
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,360
Speaker 1: at the exact right levels, and then other brands kind

460
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 1: of stole that from them. Yeah, it's a tough business.

461
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 1: So we're all working at We're all working at Burger King.

462
00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 1: I've been there about a week. We're settling in, and

463
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 1: then we realize that other employees of Burger King are

464
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 1: are have different names. Right. A new manager comes in,

465
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:14,440
Speaker 1: like a regional manager, and we're saying, look, here's how

466
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:19,320
Speaker 1: we make the whoppers, and they say that's good, that's okay,

467
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:22,080
Speaker 1: but I need this whopper to also be able to

468
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:27,400
Speaker 1: hide a gun. Okay, And then we're like, well, crap,

469
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 1: we have to we have to like some things, we

470
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,360
Speaker 1: need new equipment. What size gun are we talking about?

471
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:37,960
Speaker 1: I was like what, and they're like, you know, um,

472
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:39,960
Speaker 1: let me tell her. We can't tell you, just get

473
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 1: it done by Thursday. And then we have that moment

474
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 1: where we think, okay, we have to redesign stuff, not

475
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:48,960
Speaker 1: for a reason we want, but for a reason we're

476
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:52,600
Speaker 1: mandated to. The weirdest thing then would be if just

477
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 1: over the intercom system where all the employees can hear it,

478
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 1: you know, back in the area where we work, somebody

479
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:03,440
Speaker 1: just says project tart degrade and then nobody does anything

480
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 1: except for one person on the corner just walks into

481
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 1: the walk in freezer and just leaves her a little

482
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 1: bit and then comes back out. We can't tell what

483
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 1: they did. We haven't no idea, but they did something,

484
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:17,280
Speaker 1: and that really happened, not a burger king, but into space.

485
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,440
Speaker 1: That's true, and it happen multiple times. So the second

486
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 1: thing they need is these entities embark on a conspiracy

487
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 1: of codependence. If when wax poetic about it, because they

488
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 1: rely on one another for data and expertise related to

489
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 1: foreign aerospace programs. So if we go back to our

490
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:41,440
Speaker 1: example UM where nol is one of the noals, like

491
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:45,960
Speaker 1: the pre eminent expert, and it's very rarefied specific field,

492
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:50,920
Speaker 1: then what happens is the U S Intelligence agencies have

493
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 1: to call him in and his colleagues into tell them, like,

494
00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:00,400
Speaker 1: what could actually be going on in this weird report

495
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:03,560
Speaker 1: they don't understand or like they're saying, hey, we can't

496
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:06,800
Speaker 1: tell you where these pictures come from, but we want

497
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 1: to show them to you. Dr Brown, what do you

498
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:11,680
Speaker 1: think these could be? Well, first of all, it's called

499
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:17,400
Speaker 1: Operation Tartar Sauce, not tart de Gray Burger King. Um, yeah,

500
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 1: I've been told I can't speak to this. Sorry, that

501
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:25,560
Speaker 1: makes sense. We don't want to. We don't want to

502
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:29,240
Speaker 1: burn burn your identity here. So this is real. Like

503
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:33,240
Speaker 1: they need each other and NASA also needs Uncle Sam

504
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:35,960
Speaker 1: because they have to they have to try to keep

505
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 1: up to date with what their counterparts, especially in the USS,

506
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 1: are are up to. But there's so much secrecy, there's

507
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 1: a stone wall involved, and this means that the only

508
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 1: way they can get this information, even if they're like friends,

509
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:52,720
Speaker 1: maybe they've met at a conference or something. The only

510
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 1: way they can really get this information is by going

511
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 1: to the CIA, by going to the n r OH,

512
00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:00,280
Speaker 1: even though it doesn't exist at this point. And that's

513
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 1: that's because these intelligence agencies have been monitoring Soviet research

514
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:08,880
Speaker 1: since way before NASA existed, back when it was a

515
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:13,800
Speaker 1: twinkle and a politician's eye. By nineteen sixty six, NASA

516
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 1: becomes a regular at the at some very high level

517
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 1: Cold War intelligence briefings, especially from the CIA's Foreign Missile

518
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 1: and Space Analysis Center. Makes sense, but you can tell

519
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 1: that some people in NASA are beginning to feel a

520
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:35,800
Speaker 1: little uncomfortable with how cozy this relationship is becoming. And

521
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:40,120
Speaker 1: we don't we have to speak in present tense because

522
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:42,640
Speaker 1: we don't know when this stopped. We know it continued

523
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 1: through the eighties, but even James E. David was not

524
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 1: able to find records of when when this relationship concluded,

525
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:53,280
Speaker 1: so it could be happening now and then. Of course,

526
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:58,120
Speaker 1: the Alphabet boys realized that the eggheads at NASA would

527
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 1: be very very helpful. They want had more Dr Brown's,

528
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 1: so they agreed to establish an advisory panel. Eight CIA

529
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 1: NASSA Advisory Panels that would meet once or twice a year,

530
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:15,640
Speaker 1: and they would they would go over the future of

531
00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:19,200
Speaker 1: the military and space and try to suss out what

532
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:22,759
Speaker 1: what their rivals, chiefly the Soviet Union we're doing. And

533
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:29,960
Speaker 1: then sadly, military intelligence agencies also like explicitly fought to

534
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:35,040
Speaker 1: cripple some nasive programs. That's that weird, And I think

535
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:37,319
Speaker 1: you're spot on, Matt when you're talking about the kind

536
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:41,000
Speaker 1: of hilarity that ensues when in the show Space Forces,

537
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:44,560
Speaker 1: you see that kind of mettling. There's nothing scientists hate

538
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:47,640
Speaker 1: more than having someone who's a non scientist come in

539
00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:52,080
Speaker 1: and tell them why they can't do good, hard science,

540
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:55,480
Speaker 1: especially when it's some sort of political reasoning behind it,

541
00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:58,960
Speaker 1: because that's just not the realm of the scientist. You know.

542
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:00,680
Speaker 1: They're like, this is just even me out of it.

543
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:03,160
Speaker 1: Let me do my work, you know, in peace. Uh.

544
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:05,879
Speaker 1: And then usually there's fun kind of back and forth

545
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:07,920
Speaker 1: between them, especially when you have like a strong willed

546
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 1: scientist that won't put up with no bureaucrat um. But

547
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:15,080
Speaker 1: you know, absolutely it's uh, it's frustrating. I can only imagine,

548
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:18,360
Speaker 1: especially when you're doing work that you see a true

549
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:21,239
Speaker 1: benefit for humanity. And then some suit comes in and

550
00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 1: tries to shut it down for reasons that are classified.

551
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:25,440
Speaker 1: A lot of times, it's not likely they're even going

552
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:27,160
Speaker 1: to give you a reason. Sometimes I just come in

553
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 1: and say you're done, shut it down. It's yeah, it's

554
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:32,920
Speaker 1: hard for you because you know, I was not able

555
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 1: to find confirmation of this, but I wonder if this

556
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:40,680
Speaker 1: ever happened, just because it's possible it could have. Can

557
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:46,520
Speaker 1: you imagine lusting your hump for years to invent something

558
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:50,680
Speaker 1: like a new brilliant kind of camera and imaging device,

559
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:52,680
Speaker 1: and then you know, you have a meeting will show

560
00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:55,880
Speaker 1: and tell with your pals, right your colleagues and co workers,

561
00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 1: and then someone comes up to you quietly and says,

562
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:02,600
Speaker 1: we already have one of those. We just couldn't tell you.

563
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:04,879
Speaker 1: And you're like, are you working on this for two

564
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:07,640
Speaker 1: three years? And they're like, yeah, we did. No one knew.

565
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:10,359
Speaker 1: We didn't. We didn't think you would. You're better than

566
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 1: we thought you would be. That's so you can take that,

567
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:15,400
Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, And it's that there's actually three of

568
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:23,760
Speaker 1: them already orbiting, like the third best. That would be awful,

569
00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:27,240
Speaker 1: But but it is true because you're right man, Because

570
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 1: the I don't know what you would call it, just

571
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:34,560
Speaker 1: the scientific breakthroughs that were happening with NASA staff and

572
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:37,640
Speaker 1: and the crews there really did kind of pose a

573
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:41,919
Speaker 1: threat in a in a weird way to the supremacy

574
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:44,920
Speaker 1: of these in and it's weird to say it that way,

575
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:48,920
Speaker 1: but like the tech supremacy that was required by the

576
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:53,200
Speaker 1: intelligence agencies because they have to be the best at

577
00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:57,720
Speaker 1: you know, sensing anything, whether it's imaging or radar or whatever,

578
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:00,439
Speaker 1: if it's in orbit, they have to be the ones

579
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:04,400
Speaker 1: that have superior technology. And ideally you want to maintain

580
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:07,880
Speaker 1: information a symmetry, so you don't want your enemies to

581
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:11,120
Speaker 1: know just how good you are, right, you just want

582
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:14,120
Speaker 1: them scared. Well, yeah, and if you're NASA and and

583
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 1: you're working directly with you know, whether it's Soviet or where,

584
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:21,080
Speaker 1: whether it's post Soviet and and just Russian Space Agency

585
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:25,400
Speaker 1: or any other space agency, you could very well be

586
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:30,680
Speaker 1: sharing some of that more open source information and data

587
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:34,400
Speaker 1: and how it's collected and the processes, and those intelligence

588
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:37,920
Speaker 1: agencies can't have that. Yeah, that's the thing, if you

589
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 1: wanted to be a little hip hop about it. The

590
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:44,160
Speaker 1: geopolitical streets are watching and the intelligence communities are very

591
00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:47,960
Speaker 1: aware of this fact. So they and then the next

592
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:51,640
Speaker 1: step in this kind of at times devil's bargain is

593
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 1: they say, look, we're assisting you with stuff, you're assisting us, right,

594
00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 1: We're sharing information, we're all we're all working together for

595
00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 1: a common cause as but your research needs to stop

596
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:06,839
Speaker 1: and and we you know, we can't tell you why

597
00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 1: hashtag lemon Cello or whatever. But they actively monitored and

598
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:16,719
Speaker 1: restricted certain programs because they wanted to eliminate threats to

599
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:20,040
Speaker 1: other classified programs they couldn't tell the scientists at NASA

600
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 1: about or they didn't want that information to make it

601
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:29,000
Speaker 1: to their adversaries. So so one of the like one

602
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 1: example would be remote sensing programs, not the cool and

603
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:37,600
Speaker 1: not like astral travel, etcetera. But instead, they didn't want

604
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:42,640
Speaker 1: the Soviet Union to know the quality and the resolution

605
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 1: of images that NASA was able to obtained. They didn't

606
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:50,320
Speaker 1: they didn't want it out there. And they were also

607
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:55,319
Speaker 1: worried that using a lot of classified technology or the

608
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:58,520
Speaker 1: equivalent of that, even if you know, like if someone

609
00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:00,759
Speaker 1: at NASA did invent a camera that was just as

610
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:03,320
Speaker 1: good as a classified one that no one knew existed.

611
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:07,120
Speaker 1: They were worried that would reveal just what the US

612
00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:10,799
Speaker 1: was capable of surveillance wise, and that would help other

613
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:14,640
Speaker 1: nations improve their own R and D, and that would

614
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:18,880
Speaker 1: or or they'd figure out a way to break that innovation.

615
00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:22,480
Speaker 1: So these are understandable. But what it meant is that

616
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:26,120
Speaker 1: for a time, in a very basic level, your co

617
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:31,839
Speaker 1: worker is essentially trying to stop you from working, like

618
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:34,879
Speaker 1: their job becomes to stop you at times. And that's

619
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:37,480
Speaker 1: that's a really weird position to be it. Well, yeah,

620
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:40,240
Speaker 1: it's also you know, because of all the reasons we mentioned,

621
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:44,160
Speaker 1: a lot of these folks probably grew up with aspirations

622
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:46,839
Speaker 1: of working for NASA and all of these kind of

623
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:50,200
Speaker 1: like huge idealistic notions of what it meant to do

624
00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:53,279
Speaker 1: this kind of work. And then you get there, you know,

625
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:58,160
Speaker 1: you make it all the way to the FBI, you know, uh,

626
00:39:58,239 --> 00:39:59,600
Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden, it's not what you

627
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:02,360
Speaker 1: thought it us you know, I mean that happens. So

628
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 1: that's a very good point, man. That happens to a

629
00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 1: lot of people. You know. You you get in and

630
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:10,520
Speaker 1: you get disillusioned or you start to look at things

631
00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:15,200
Speaker 1: up close, and yeah, it's it's it's a difficult thing

632
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:17,000
Speaker 1: and a lot of people were tuned in today. You

633
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:20,480
Speaker 1: know exactly what we're talking about without going into further details.

634
00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:24,040
Speaker 1: You finally make it to the I Heart radio and

635
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:26,880
Speaker 1: then you've got to take an ad break. Is that

636
00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:29,560
Speaker 1: what's happening right now? Let's do it. Let's do it,

637
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:38,200
Speaker 1: and we're back. We'll get to a little more juicy stuff,

638
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:42,799
Speaker 1: some stuff that we've all been collectively waiting for. This

639
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:49,640
Speaker 1: is true. NASA helped create alibis and cover stories for

640
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:54,040
Speaker 1: military intelligence, and they did it pretty often because they

641
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:56,640
Speaker 1: were good at it. Again, these are these are world

642
00:40:56,640 --> 00:41:00,080
Speaker 1: class experts on stuff that goes on in space and

643
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:03,080
Speaker 1: in the sky. So if you want something to sound realistic,

644
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:06,560
Speaker 1: if you want to fool the experts at another country,

645
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:09,400
Speaker 1: then you need your experts to help you craft a

646
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:12,960
Speaker 1: realistic lie. But those are my friends. That's my counterpart.

647
00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:15,160
Speaker 1: You're saying, I got a lie to my best friend

648
00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:20,840
Speaker 1: lemon Cello. Bro. Yeah, that part of the game. It's terrible,

649
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:23,839
Speaker 1: but yeah, yeah, that's exactly what we're talking about. UM.

650
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:26,960
Speaker 1: One example would be a guy named Q. Dryden. He

651
00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:30,279
Speaker 1: was the director of the National Advisory Committee on Aeronautics

652
00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:33,799
Speaker 1: from seven to nineteen fifty eight, you know, again the

653
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:38,799
Speaker 1: foundation of NASA, and he helped over the course of

654
00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:43,000
Speaker 1: his career, he helped develop and then maintain cover stories

655
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:46,560
Speaker 1: for things like the spy plane, the U two or

656
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:49,840
Speaker 1: it's or the A twelve, another kind of spy plane.

657
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:51,799
Speaker 1: And they were so good at this. They were like

658
00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:56,799
Speaker 1: really good at spending bs that was believable. And so

659
00:41:57,160 --> 00:41:59,439
Speaker 1: that's you know, for some people, that could be seen

660
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:01,840
Speaker 1: as a patriot aodic mission. You know, I'm helping my

661
00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 1: country for other people to you know, your your earlier point.

662
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:09,640
Speaker 1: It could be like it could be a it could

663
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:13,000
Speaker 1: be very disillusioning, you know, like I love this stuff.

664
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:14,919
Speaker 1: I want to figure out how it really works. Why

665
00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:17,440
Speaker 1: why am I being forced to help you lie about it? Well?

666
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:22,000
Speaker 1: And it just feels counter to your whole mission as

667
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:24,920
Speaker 1: a scientist, as someone who's just trying to make discoveries.

668
00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:26,759
Speaker 1: And then all of a sudden you've got to deal

669
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:28,640
Speaker 1: with all this politics and you know, as we know,

670
00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:32,400
Speaker 1: their drawbacks to being part of any large organization, and

671
00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:34,200
Speaker 1: you've got to kind of learn how to play the game.

672
00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:37,360
Speaker 1: Even just in like regular science, getting grants and stuff

673
00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:40,080
Speaker 1: often requires a little bit of subterfuge or a little

674
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:43,200
Speaker 1: bit of kind of like political maneuvering. That can feel icky,

675
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:45,000
Speaker 1: but it's a means to an end, and the ends

676
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:47,960
Speaker 1: justify the means, and if it means getting your stuff

677
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:50,360
Speaker 1: done and being able to have that access and that money,

678
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:52,640
Speaker 1: then maybe you'll do some stuff that feels a little

679
00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:58,360
Speaker 1: less than scrupulous. It's a problem in academia as well, because, uh,

680
00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:02,239
Speaker 1: for the reasons you just mentioned, Uh, the grants process, right,

681
00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:08,080
Speaker 1: and like there's a crisis sometimes in science where people

682
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:12,879
Speaker 1: feel like their chances of getting funding depend on them

683
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:18,360
Speaker 1: doing something new rather than verifying the work of someone else.

684
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:21,759
Speaker 1: So it's it's a weird system of incentives, you know.

685
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:26,320
Speaker 1: But cover stories aside, a good a good yarn aside.

686
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:30,879
Speaker 1: There were other things that NASA was assisting with, and

687
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:35,160
Speaker 1: one of them one of them was secret technology. NASA

688
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:38,880
Speaker 1: was looking for lunar landing sites. They had to figure

689
00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:41,560
Speaker 1: out a good parking spot on the Moon, and they

690
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:45,400
Speaker 1: realized they needed much better technology. They need better cameras.

691
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:48,520
Speaker 1: They needed the kind of cameras that didn't officially exist,

692
00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:51,280
Speaker 1: and that's when they reached out to some other folks

693
00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:55,960
Speaker 1: didn't officially exist. The National Reconnaissance Office. Uh. In short,

694
00:43:56,760 --> 00:44:00,680
Speaker 1: spies helped people get to the moon. Spies did uh

695
00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:05,799
Speaker 1: and missing from a lot of documentaries. It really is

696
00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:09,759
Speaker 1: imagine looking at the old imagery that was available or

697
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:16,160
Speaker 1: something like that. I don't understand animal, the entire moon

698
00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:19,759
Speaker 1: appears to look like a potato. I don't understand is

699
00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:24,279
Speaker 1: this potato or apologies general, that is that is in

700
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:28,120
Speaker 1: fact a photograph of a potato. Well, God, Jim, get

701
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:35,640
Speaker 1: the n R O in here. Yes, WA's your mouth, Jerry? Sorry? Sorry,

702
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:41,600
Speaker 1: all right. So Potato Boys aside, which is the name

703
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:44,279
Speaker 1: of that government agency, they're full of hijinks. They just

704
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:48,080
Speaker 1: wantt to government. That was my favorite. That was my

705
00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:50,680
Speaker 1: favorite little sub gang in the Mad Max movies. The

706
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:56,560
Speaker 1: Potato Boys underappreciated. The Potato Boys in general are underappreciated.

707
00:44:56,640 --> 00:44:59,200
Speaker 1: We should, uh, we should do an episode on the

708
00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:02,440
Speaker 1: Potato Boy. Listeners, you know, you surely know what we're

709
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:04,080
Speaker 1: talking about. To write it and tell us what you

710
00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:07,960
Speaker 1: think of the Potato Boys. So they also, as we said,

711
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:11,879
Speaker 1: came to a head. There's an excellent article in Air

712
00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:15,120
Speaker 1: and Space mag that talks about some of the tension

713
00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:21,440
Speaker 1: between civilian selected astronauts and then what are m se right,

714
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:24,160
Speaker 1: These are These are people who are picked by the

715
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:29,440
Speaker 1: Air Force or another military outfit to participate in space

716
00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:35,240
Speaker 1: exploration and at tomes spaceflight engineers, yes, man spaceflight engineers,

717
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:38,640
Speaker 1: and at times they come into like literal shouting matches

718
00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:43,880
Speaker 1: with people and civilians at NASA get surprised by the

719
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:47,879
Speaker 1: level of secrecy, which seems you know, it starts off understandable,

720
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:50,759
Speaker 1: and then it feels like increasingly and I said Catch

721
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:55,120
Speaker 1: twenty two earlier, but increasingly almost Slaughterhouse five, increasingly like

722
00:45:55,239 --> 00:46:01,600
Speaker 1: Dr Strange love, and then they start that that burger

723
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:06,279
Speaker 1: king moment that we're talking about. Earlier, their designs, if

724
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 1: they had their druthers, their designs would just be getting

725
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:13,800
Speaker 1: people and stuff safely into space and then safely back

726
00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:19,920
Speaker 1: with an acceptable margin of error. But the espionage organizations,

727
00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:24,960
Speaker 1: the spy organizations, dictated the design of things. And this

728
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:29,640
Speaker 1: this culminated in a really weird situation with the space Shuttle.

729
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:33,520
Speaker 1: That's right, between nineteen two and Nino, NASA launched eleven

730
00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:37,839
Speaker 1: Shuttle flights with these classified payloads. And this was part

731
00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:40,640
Speaker 1: of an agreement that dated back to nineteen sixty nine

732
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:43,200
Speaker 1: when the n R o UM, which was at the

733
00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:47,640
Speaker 1: time completely secret agency. They wouldn't even publish the name

734
00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:51,400
Speaker 1: anywhere UM. The n r O requested changes to the

735
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:56,520
Speaker 1: designs of NASA's new space Transpo system. UH. Specifically, the

736
00:46:56,640 --> 00:46:59,600
Speaker 1: n r O built and operator these large, expensive reconnaissance

737
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:02,720
Speaker 1: saddle lights, and they wanted a bigger cargo hold for

738
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:05,400
Speaker 1: the ship that so that NASA was going to be

739
00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:08,400
Speaker 1: able to kind of help maintain those satellites and trundle

740
00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:10,640
Speaker 1: stuff for them back and forth. And as we know,

741
00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:12,960
Speaker 1: a big part of the expense of sending things out

742
00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:17,080
Speaker 1: into space is the weight. That's a huge consideration. It

743
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:21,080
Speaker 1: can exponentially increase the cost of space flight just by

744
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:23,359
Speaker 1: how much stuff is on the ship, which is why

745
00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:26,680
Speaker 1: it's really important to pick things selectively and have things

746
00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:29,160
Speaker 1: be as lightweight as possible. But this is like essentially

747
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:31,600
Speaker 1: the equivalent of Big Brother coming in saying forget all

748
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:35,400
Speaker 1: your science nerd stuff. You know, bring our crap and

749
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:37,480
Speaker 1: that that takes precedent and we're not going to even

750
00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:40,240
Speaker 1: tell you why, Just do it and shut up nerd.

751
00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:45,760
Speaker 1: Just like take your mind back to the Space Shuttle.

752
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:48,720
Speaker 1: I'm sure most of us can just imagine a picture

753
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:51,959
Speaker 1: picture of like Discovery or one of these Columbia, maybe

754
00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:57,279
Speaker 1: one of these space shuttles. In your mind is but

755
00:47:57,400 --> 00:47:59,880
Speaker 1: just the shuttle, yes, slow motion, just the shuttle, Like

756
00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:05,480
Speaker 1: it's a pretty awesome looking thing. Now, think back to

757
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:09,120
Speaker 1: the rockets that were required to get that thing up

758
00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:14,040
Speaker 1: into space, and how freaking huge that first the first

759
00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:19,000
Speaker 1: stage rocket was they was strapped onto that fairly small

760
00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:21,320
Speaker 1: shuttle compared to the rest of this stuff that's launching

761
00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:24,680
Speaker 1: up with it. Um, not to mention the other stage

762
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:29,520
Speaker 1: two rockets. It's just it's so weird to imagine that

763
00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:34,520
Speaker 1: the National Reconnaissance Office dictated that need for that much

764
00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:38,000
Speaker 1: fuel to get it up into space. So yeah, they also,

765
00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:42,880
Speaker 1: you know, they also wanted polar shuttle missions so that

766
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:47,960
Speaker 1: they could see the Earth's entire surface instead of equatorial missions,

767
00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:51,080
Speaker 1: which were more limited. This even resulted in the Air

768
00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:56,360
Speaker 1: Force building their own launchpad in Vandenburg, California. But after

769
00:48:56,400 --> 00:49:01,640
Speaker 1: the Challenger disaster it got mothballed permanently too. Now and

770
00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:06,600
Speaker 1: then we see the rise of these of these secret payloads.

771
00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:11,520
Speaker 1: It's it's so odd. These are spies and space there

772
00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:16,520
Speaker 1: there are real stories of astronauts who witness one of

773
00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:20,840
Speaker 1: their colleagues on you know, on the Shuttle or on

774
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:24,280
Speaker 1: I S S just kind of you know, dipping out

775
00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:28,279
Speaker 1: to the to the walking cooler like the way we

776
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:31,239
Speaker 1: described it earlier, or just you know, it's not as

777
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:35,640
Speaker 1: casual as you know, leaving to go to the restroom

778
00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:39,360
Speaker 1: while you're eating a restaurant friends or something. Space is brutal.

779
00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:43,000
Speaker 1: These guys are getting out, they're coming back in, and

780
00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:46,080
Speaker 1: no one's supposed to talk about it. What happened. It

781
00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:51,239
Speaker 1: wasn't a smoke break exactly, which would be amazing if

782
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:53,880
Speaker 1: you could somehow make that. Whereas no smoking and space

783
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:59,120
Speaker 1: guys so only these and Tom Waits is not an astronaut.

784
00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:03,080
Speaker 1: I want to give you a specific version of that,

785
00:50:03,160 --> 00:50:06,440
Speaker 1: Ben from that article you mentioned on Air and Space

786
00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:10,560
Speaker 1: magazines called the Secret Space Shuttles, written by Michael Cassutte

787
00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:14,680
Speaker 1: cassut As August two thousand nine, you could read about

788
00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:18,520
Speaker 1: this crew member that was on STS thirty nine, that's

789
00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:24,280
Speaker 1: the mission name, the Shuttle Mission thirty nine. Um, this guy,

790
00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:28,160
Speaker 1: Guy Blueford, was one of the I think five people

791
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:31,200
Speaker 1: who are who are there on a manned space flight

792
00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:34,640
Speaker 1: mission on a shuttle. This guy, this guy named Guy

793
00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:38,600
Speaker 1: just wandered over to the aft flight deck by himself

794
00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:42,200
Speaker 1: while the rest of us pretended not to notice, and

795
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:47,640
Speaker 1: he apparently launched a small classified satellite just like he

796
00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:49,239
Speaker 1: just kind of was like do do do do? Do?

797
00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:55,719
Speaker 1: Do do do? Just came right back. It's got to

798
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:59,759
Speaker 1: be the almost the equivalent of being in an l

799
00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:03,560
Speaker 1: of being a crowded elevator, right, but not so crowded

800
00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:05,719
Speaker 1: that you lose count of how many people are in

801
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:09,040
Speaker 1: there and hearing someone fart and then just wondering if

802
00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:12,879
Speaker 1: anyone's going to mention it, right, Yeah, yeah, you don't

803
00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:16,080
Speaker 1: want it to be but you're certainly yeah, you're you're

804
00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:18,440
Speaker 1: you're thinking about You're looking around, and you're like, I'm

805
00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:20,200
Speaker 1: the only one that noticed it, and you know, everybody

806
00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:22,799
Speaker 1: noticed it, but nobody wants to be the first one

807
00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:26,480
Speaker 1: to mention it. Uh. When when we say small satellite,

808
00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:29,480
Speaker 1: I mean there's no small satellites, right, I mean these

809
00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:32,480
Speaker 1: are not like drone size. These are quite large. Like,

810
00:51:32,520 --> 00:51:37,040
Speaker 1: how how does a single person even launched such a thing? Dude,

811
00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:40,480
Speaker 1: I don't know. That is a story from a another

812
00:51:40,600 --> 00:51:45,200
Speaker 1: member of the crew of STS thirty nine, and I

813
00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:47,440
Speaker 1: I don't have all the information. But in that in

814
00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:50,520
Speaker 1: that article you can probably read more. I'm gonna send

815
00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:54,560
Speaker 1: you this is tough too because that technology was classified,

816
00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:59,319
Speaker 1: and satellite technology still gets really murky, right because it

817
00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:02,080
Speaker 1: has such powerful potential. I'm gonna send you guys something

818
00:52:02,160 --> 00:52:06,399
Speaker 1: here in our group chat. Uh. The this is, as

819
00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:11,799
Speaker 1: of twenty nineteen, the world's smallest satellite. And this was

820
00:52:11,960 --> 00:52:16,440
Speaker 1: made by the Indian Space Research Organization or i s

821
00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:19,480
Speaker 1: r oh. And if you look at it's hand held,

822
00:52:19,719 --> 00:52:22,520
Speaker 1: it's small enough to be held comfortably in the palm

823
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:24,959
Speaker 1: of one hand. Are you sure that the puzzle box

824
00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:29,480
Speaker 1: from hell Raiser? Dude, that's a little freaky looking. That

825
00:52:29,640 --> 00:52:32,840
Speaker 1: is crazy, but it almost looks like a mini server

826
00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:39,440
Speaker 1: or something. That's that's funky. Callum sat V two weighing

827
00:52:39,440 --> 00:52:44,040
Speaker 1: in and only one point two six ms uh. And

828
00:52:44,080 --> 00:52:45,640
Speaker 1: the article here you you sent us a been This

829
00:52:45,680 --> 00:52:48,640
Speaker 1: BBC article points out that, um, it's just a little

830
00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:51,759
Speaker 1: heavyer than a bag of sugar. Wow. Well well, hey,

831
00:52:51,880 --> 00:52:58,279
Speaker 1: STS was STS thirty nine, So just put your head there, like,

832
00:52:58,320 --> 00:53:02,680
Speaker 1: imagine what was the smallest satellite. Then maybe drones side

833
00:53:02,719 --> 00:53:05,440
Speaker 1: isn't that far off at all. Actually, I don't think so,

834
00:53:05,719 --> 00:53:09,280
Speaker 1: we do know that miniaturization, due to the point brought

835
00:53:09,320 --> 00:53:14,320
Speaker 1: up earlier about about weight miniaturization is a huge, huge

836
00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:19,440
Speaker 1: concern or a huge research goal. And that tiny satellite

837
00:53:19,480 --> 00:53:22,279
Speaker 1: that is planned to be launched by India that was

838
00:53:22,440 --> 00:53:26,319
Speaker 1: made by students. So it came about in um, it

839
00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:31,440
Speaker 1: came about from a place of transparency. It may sound cynical,

840
00:53:31,520 --> 00:53:34,960
Speaker 1: but I feel like it's an open secret at this

841
00:53:35,040 --> 00:53:39,960
Speaker 1: point that certain areas of the government have technology that

842
00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:43,160
Speaker 1: is just way beyond what the public is seen right now.

843
00:53:43,560 --> 00:53:46,400
Speaker 1: And this was probably the case then, because we have

844
00:53:46,440 --> 00:53:49,120
Speaker 1: to realize, you know, we've been joking about how secret

845
00:53:49,360 --> 00:53:53,200
Speaker 1: the n r O National Reconnaissance Office was. It was

846
00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:58,360
Speaker 1: not officially acknowledged until nineteen two. A lot of people

847
00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:01,600
Speaker 1: listening to today's episode We're Alive when the n r

848
00:54:01,640 --> 00:54:05,040
Speaker 1: OH did not technically exist but still could get all

849
00:54:05,120 --> 00:54:07,640
Speaker 1: your stuff if it wanted to, you know what I mean,

850
00:54:07,960 --> 00:54:11,600
Speaker 1: and you would get shut down for trying to raise

851
00:54:11,640 --> 00:54:15,680
Speaker 1: too much of a ruckus about it. So James E.

852
00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:20,280
Speaker 1: David points out that when the n r O gets

853
00:54:20,360 --> 00:54:26,560
Speaker 1: publicly exposed or acknowledged, the amount of secret shuttle payloads

854
00:54:26,640 --> 00:54:30,520
Speaker 1: like Matt just described seemed to be winding down. But

855
00:54:30,719 --> 00:54:33,520
Speaker 1: here's the deal. We don't know if they stopped. And

856
00:54:33,560 --> 00:54:37,399
Speaker 1: here's a here's another part. We don't know what kind

857
00:54:37,440 --> 00:54:41,600
Speaker 1: of coordination uh NASA continues to have with spy agencies.

858
00:54:41,719 --> 00:54:44,279
Speaker 1: We probably never will know, or we won't know for

859
00:54:44,400 --> 00:54:47,279
Speaker 1: decades and decades. We don't know if it stopped. Who

860
00:54:47,320 --> 00:54:50,239
Speaker 1: don't know what to Greek continued to. We do know

861
00:54:50,520 --> 00:54:54,359
Speaker 1: that the spy agencies were interested in moving away from

862
00:54:54,400 --> 00:54:58,120
Speaker 1: the Shuttle program because it involved humans going into space,

863
00:54:58,680 --> 00:55:02,399
Speaker 1: and it was there was way more press involved. There

864
00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:05,600
Speaker 1: were human interest stories for each individual crew member that

865
00:55:05,680 --> 00:55:08,759
Speaker 1: were being put out on national news. They were they

866
00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:11,640
Speaker 1: were way more into let's just strap some things into

867
00:55:11,719 --> 00:55:15,080
Speaker 1: a rocket, shoot that rocket up, Let a bay window open,

868
00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:18,200
Speaker 1: in a robot arm. We're good to go. We can

869
00:55:18,239 --> 00:55:23,680
Speaker 1: handle all that from down here. Um. It's so who

870
00:55:23,719 --> 00:55:27,800
Speaker 1: knows what they were doing. But then this whole story,

871
00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:31,120
Speaker 1: this whole episode, all of this research has put X

872
00:55:33,480 --> 00:55:38,080
Speaker 1: in a brand new light for me, because imagine, if

873
00:55:38,120 --> 00:55:40,640
Speaker 1: you imagine the Shuttle, it was required to be that

874
00:55:40,760 --> 00:55:43,280
Speaker 1: large for a lot of reasons. One of the main reasons,

875
00:55:43,520 --> 00:55:46,040
Speaker 1: you know, was the payload, the large payloads, but also

876
00:55:46,120 --> 00:55:48,920
Speaker 1: you needed to have five human beings be able to

877
00:55:48,960 --> 00:55:53,000
Speaker 1: move around inside of it and you know, perform maintenance,

878
00:55:53,040 --> 00:55:55,080
Speaker 1: do all kinds of things like that. If you don't

879
00:55:55,080 --> 00:55:58,960
Speaker 1: need any humans, you can really make that thing smaller

880
00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:02,839
Speaker 1: and you could still have space for a payload. If

881
00:56:02,880 --> 00:56:05,680
Speaker 1: your satellites and other things are now smaller due to

882
00:56:05,760 --> 00:56:09,160
Speaker 1: technology advances, and you can stay you can stay in

883
00:56:09,160 --> 00:56:15,080
Speaker 1: space longer. Yes, Like why from the perspective of these agencies,

884
00:56:15,200 --> 00:56:20,040
Speaker 1: you know, the question is why why am I taking

885
00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:25,319
Speaker 1: five liabilities to space? Five very expensive liabilities right on

886
00:56:25,400 --> 00:56:28,480
Speaker 1: every level. And that's not of course, I hope it

887
00:56:28,480 --> 00:56:30,600
Speaker 1: goes without saying, but just to be clear, I don't

888
00:56:30,600 --> 00:56:33,040
Speaker 1: think that's the perspective any of us are taking. We

889
00:56:33,080 --> 00:56:38,800
Speaker 1: want humans in space. But but yeah, now I'm glad

890
00:56:38,800 --> 00:56:41,600
Speaker 1: you mentioned X thirty seven B because some news broke

891
00:56:41,640 --> 00:56:43,920
Speaker 1: about it. Just about a month ago. The government of

892
00:56:43,960 --> 00:56:48,760
Speaker 1: Russias stated that they believe X thirty seven B is weaponized.

893
00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:52,880
Speaker 1: They believe it's a bomber. This is projected. Yeah, this

894
00:56:52,960 --> 00:56:58,040
Speaker 1: has been rejected by you know, Western experts, uh and

895
00:56:58,360 --> 00:57:01,320
Speaker 1: you know, dismissed as a conspiracy theory. But X thirty

896
00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:05,000
Speaker 1: seven B is very much real and it is a

897
00:57:05,080 --> 00:57:08,600
Speaker 1: harbinger of things to come. We just hope that it

898
00:57:08,719 --> 00:57:13,840
Speaker 1: doesn't edge out the progress towards manned space flight or

899
00:57:14,080 --> 00:57:17,600
Speaker 1: you know, space flights people on them. And that's where

900
00:57:17,600 --> 00:57:18,960
Speaker 1: we are. You know, at this point we have to

901
00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:22,640
Speaker 1: ask fellow conspiracy realists, what do you think? In several cases,

902
00:57:23,000 --> 00:57:25,960
Speaker 1: I think you can you can solidly say that this

903
00:57:26,040 --> 00:57:31,360
Speaker 1: cooperation was necessary. They these organizations needed to work together

904
00:57:31,480 --> 00:57:35,840
Speaker 1: to accomplish their respective goals. But at times these arrangements

905
00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:39,960
Speaker 1: did stymy NASA's product progress. At times of the quote

906
00:57:40,000 --> 00:57:45,000
Speaker 1: unquote coworkers were preventing NASA from doing their job. And

907
00:57:45,040 --> 00:57:49,280
Speaker 1: perhaps the most important question, where is that relationship today?

908
00:57:49,320 --> 00:57:52,320
Speaker 1: How does it continue today? Is it's still handing glove?

909
00:57:52,640 --> 00:57:55,640
Speaker 1: Is a case by case? Will we ever learn about it?

910
00:57:55,960 --> 00:57:58,360
Speaker 1: Love to hear your take on it. If you are

911
00:57:58,400 --> 00:58:02,320
Speaker 1: one of the four were surviving people of the twelve

912
00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:04,280
Speaker 1: who had walked on the moon, we'd love to hear

913
00:58:04,320 --> 00:58:06,320
Speaker 1: your story as well. Just gotta shoot your shot in

914
00:58:06,360 --> 00:58:09,080
Speaker 1: case they're out there, you know, Yeah, shoot your shot.

915
00:58:09,160 --> 00:58:11,560
Speaker 1: On the internet and multiple places. You can find us

916
00:58:11,600 --> 00:58:14,280
Speaker 1: on Facebook, you can find us on Twitter, you can

917
00:58:14,320 --> 00:58:17,480
Speaker 1: find us on YouTube, all under the handle conspiracy stuff.

918
00:58:17,600 --> 00:58:20,760
Speaker 1: We're also Conspiracy Stuff show on Instagram, and you can

919
00:58:20,800 --> 00:58:24,320
Speaker 1: find us on the telephone via you know those those digits.

920
00:58:24,800 --> 00:58:28,880
Speaker 1: The digits are one eight three three st d w

921
00:58:29,200 --> 00:58:31,560
Speaker 1: y t K. When you call in, give yourself a

922
00:58:31,640 --> 00:58:35,240
Speaker 1: really cool nickname that we can use on air. You've

923
00:58:35,280 --> 00:58:37,560
Speaker 1: got three minutes. You use them however you like, and

924
00:58:37,560 --> 00:58:40,320
Speaker 1: if you've got more to say, then hey. You can

925
00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:42,720
Speaker 1: reach us at an email address where you can put

926
00:58:42,800 --> 00:58:45,160
Speaker 1: links and all kinds of other things in there. We

927
00:58:45,200 --> 00:58:49,040
Speaker 1: can't wait to hear from you. Our email addresses conspiracy

928
00:58:49,160 --> 00:59:09,960
Speaker 1: at iHeart radio dot com. Mm hm h. Stuff they

929
00:59:09,960 --> 00:59:11,840
Speaker 1: Don't Want you to Know is a production of I

930
00:59:12,000 --> 00:59:15,080
Speaker 1: heart Radio. For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit

931
00:59:15,120 --> 00:59:17,920
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932
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Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.