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Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom Never told you From house supports

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Speaker 1: dot com. Hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen

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Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline and happy Marty Rob. Thanks you too,

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Speaker 1: Thanks Caroline. Have you ever been to Marty Graw in

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Speaker 1: New Orleans? I haven't, really, no, I haven't. Let me

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Speaker 1: tell you a girl, Um, I've I've been to Marty

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Speaker 1: Gras a few times now, and I've been to New

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Speaker 1: Orleans a number of times because one of my best

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Speaker 1: friends lives there. And when I the prospect of going

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Speaker 1: the first time, I was skeptical because I was in college,

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Speaker 1: but I was still like, I don't know, it seems

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Speaker 1: like an awful lot of boobs and and booze, which

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Speaker 1: makes me sound like a real fun college kid. Um,

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Speaker 1: but it's fantastic. You don't if you don't want to

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Speaker 1: see any exposed breasts, you don't up to or if

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Speaker 1: you do, you can. Um. But there was one quote

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Speaker 1: about Marty Gras by this woman named Carol Flake, who

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Speaker 1: has written a lot about the history Marty Gras, who

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Speaker 1: says there is a place in New Orleans carnival for

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Speaker 1: anyone who cares to join in. And that is completely

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Speaker 1: my experience um so, I was really excited when you

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Speaker 1: are down to do an episode on Marty Gros women

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Speaker 1: Marty gra Yeah, I mean the stereotype is absolutely the

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Speaker 1: stereotype that you had as a college student, which it's

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Speaker 1: just like this debaucherous, like X rated boo bearing you know, beadfest.

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Speaker 1: How do you like that for a literation? Hey, hey, well,

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Speaker 1: and it can absolutely be as X rated and wild

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Speaker 1: as you want it to be. Um and we shall

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Speaker 1: also know that the Marty Gras does not just happen

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Speaker 1: in New Orleans. It also takes place in in Metai, uh,

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Speaker 1: in Mobile, Alabama, and in smaller towns all around New

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Speaker 1: Orleans and in in the Gulf area. Um So, let's

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Speaker 1: just let's just start talking Marty Gras, because we're going

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Speaker 1: to get into some stuff about Marty Grass and women

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Speaker 1: in gender and it's not all going to be about boobs,

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Speaker 1: that's right. Well, starting off Marty Grass. Really, it's just

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Speaker 1: this teeny tiny, little six weeks celebration that has more

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Speaker 1: than thirty thousand parade writers and fifty nine crews. A

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Speaker 1: big deal. Yeah it. I was astounded to find out

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Speaker 1: that it has for money. Nerds out there, get this

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Speaker 1: a one billion dollar economic impact on New Orleans. I

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Speaker 1: am not surprised. I'm not surprised either. I mean, it

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Speaker 1: attracts around four million tourists today, but even in the

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Speaker 1: nineteen hundreds it was a major tourist attraction. As early

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Speaker 1: as nineteen hundred there were a hundred thousand people, which

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Speaker 1: was a lot for that time, going to New Orleans

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Speaker 1: to see Marty graw Well. Its origins are not only

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Speaker 1: international but ancient. It goes all the way back to

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Speaker 1: those silly pagans hanging out over in Europe and Rome. Basically,

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Speaker 1: Marty Grad itself is a Christian holiday and popular cultural

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Speaker 1: phenomenon and tradition, but actually dates back to spring and

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Speaker 1: fertility rights like Saturnalia and luper Callia, which was you know,

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Speaker 1: just like whatever, just like a circus, like orgy, No

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Speaker 1: big deal, no big deal. But moving from the pagan

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Speaker 1: orgies to Christianity, Marty Grass season officially kicks off on

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Speaker 1: January six with the twelfth Night Feast of the Epiphany,

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Speaker 1: which commemorates uh in In in Christian lore, the day

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Speaker 1: that the Three Wise Men visited Jesus, which is which

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Speaker 1: is a little funny, I mean, because all of This

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Speaker 1: is so steeped in religion, and the Catholic Church has

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Speaker 1: like officially been like, all right, you can, you guys

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Speaker 1: can have Marty Gras because Marty grad Day is not

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Speaker 1: only legal holiday in New Orleans, but it also is

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Speaker 1: the day before Lent starts. Right, you gotta get all

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Speaker 1: that crazy out, that's right, gotta shake that crazy idea.

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Speaker 1: But those pagan fertility rights and rituals were incorporated into

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Speaker 1: Christianity because when the religion arrived in Rome, religious leaders

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Speaker 1: were like, we really can't like do away with everything,

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Speaker 1: you know, they're they're gonna get upset, so we'll just

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Speaker 1: incorporate it into this tradition so that people can, you know,

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Speaker 1: have these parties before this this season of giving things up. Basically, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's that that forty day period of penance between Ash

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Speaker 1: Wednesday and Easter Sunday and Marty Grass spread from Rome

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Speaker 1: to other European countries, including France, Germany, Spain, and England,

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Speaker 1: And of course it is France that gave us the

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Speaker 1: name Marty Gras, which is French for Fat Tuesday. Fat Tuesday.

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Speaker 1: It's also known as Carnival Uh and celebrated all over

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Speaker 1: the world. Mainly in countries with Roman Catholic populations. But

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Speaker 1: I don't know many people who would you know, opt

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Speaker 1: out of celebrating Marty Gras. I mean, it's it's a

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Speaker 1: fun time for anybody. It is a fun time. And

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Speaker 1: Kingcake is delicious, so good. And you know what Marty

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Speaker 1: Gral like. I don't keep up with when it is

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Speaker 1: because it's always different, and I just I'm always excited

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Speaker 1: for a Kingcake and then I just let it pass

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Speaker 1: me by. No. I know I have gotten the baby

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Speaker 1: though before in the king Cake. Well then you need

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Speaker 1: to get on and buy a kincake, I know, for me, okay,

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Speaker 1: just for you. But in the United States, I didn't

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Speaker 1: know this. This is really fascinating. The first American Mardy

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Speaker 1: Gras is thought to have taken place on March third,

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Speaker 1: six nine, when French explorers Yberville and Bienneville landed in

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Speaker 1: what is now Louisiana. They were basically camped out around

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Speaker 1: fifty miles outside of modern day New Orleans, and they

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Speaker 1: were like halls of Maldi grawl. Yeah, they actually dubbed

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Speaker 1: the spot where they landed point du Maldi Gral. How

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Speaker 1: do you like that for a non accent anyway, a

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Speaker 1: lot New Orleans and other French settlements begin marking the

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Speaker 1: holiday with street parties, masked balls, and lavish dinners. And

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Speaker 1: that sounds pretty much like Marty Grass today actually. But

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Speaker 1: important note, Caroline, the very first modern day Marty Grass

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Speaker 1: celebration outside of you know, Yberville and Bienville hanging out,

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Speaker 1: it did not happen in New Orleans. It actually happened

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Speaker 1: in seventeen oh three in Mobile, Alabama, which still has

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Speaker 1: a Marta gra tradition. And uh side note for documentary

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Speaker 1: fans out there, check out the Order of the Myths

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Speaker 1: that came out in two thousand eight, all about Marty

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Speaker 1: Gras and Mobile and how it is still highly racially segregated.

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Speaker 1: Um but a little a little fun Marde Gras in

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Speaker 1: fact for you. But moving back to New Orleans, when

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Speaker 1: the Spanish took control, they abolished Marty Gras. How rude?

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Speaker 1: How how would do? Who would do with that? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: And the band stayed in place until Louisiana became a

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Speaker 1: U S state in eighteen twelve, and then you start

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Speaker 1: to see it coming back in full force. And in

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Speaker 1: even you have a group of students who put on

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Speaker 1: these colorful costumes and dance to the streets of New Orleans,

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Speaker 1: basically imitating all of the revelry they'd seen while they

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Speaker 1: were in Paris. And a decade later, the first recorded

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Speaker 1: New Orleans Marty Gras took place. Yeah, but then in

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Speaker 1: eighteen fifty seven you have the origin of the cruise

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Speaker 1: and that's crew with a K and an E on

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Speaker 1: the end um. And these are the organizations that you

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Speaker 1: see today that put together those massive floats. And it

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Speaker 1: was all really started by rich white dudes who were like, hey,

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Speaker 1: let's start up with a secret society. Yeah, that sounds fun.

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Speaker 1: So in eighteen fifty seven, the secret society of New

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Speaker 1: Orleans businessmen called the Mystic Crew of Comus organized a

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Speaker 1: tortulit Marty Grab procession and they had marching bands and

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Speaker 1: rolling floats, and all of the floats were themed around

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Speaker 1: mythology and literature, which you still see a lot today. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and we have Commas to thank, honestly for not getting

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Speaker 1: Marty gracnd again, because leading up to this time it

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Speaker 1: was pretty debaucherous. The maskers were pretty violent. It was

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Speaker 1: just kind of a girl's gone wild, horrible type of thing.

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Speaker 1: But Commas was known to have beautified the parade, ensuring

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Speaker 1: that it would stick around. And we should also note

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Speaker 1: that one important part of the Marty grad tradition that

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Speaker 1: it also emerges during that first parade are the flambeaux

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Speaker 1: and Flambeau's French for flame, and these were usually slaves

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Speaker 1: or freemen of color who would march alongside these rich

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Speaker 1: white guys floats with torches to light up these magnificent

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Speaker 1: creations that they had made. And you still see the

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Speaker 1: flambeaux tradition today and in we had the very first

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Speaker 1: all female flambeau troupe marching alongside the Muses parade and

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Speaker 1: they called themselves the Glambeau I of it. Yeah. Well,

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Speaker 1: you know, speaking of women and people on the sidelines,

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Speaker 1: we we can't talk about Marty Gras in this podcast

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Speaker 1: and not address that gender aspect because in the early

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Speaker 1: days in the mid to late nineteenth century, women were

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Speaker 1: totally in the background. They were not participating in any

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Speaker 1: way on the floats and things like that, except for

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Speaker 1: maybe the queen. But these elite male crews had working

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Speaker 1: class women designing their fancy costumes and the floats for

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Speaker 1: the parades, while the upper class women also played supporting roles,

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Speaker 1: but this time actually helping their husbands, their rich husbands

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Speaker 1: display their mock royalty. Yeah, it's it's kind of funny

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Speaker 1: that with the history of Marty Gras, it all starts

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Speaker 1: out with men really wanting to play dress up and

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Speaker 1: have these fancy balls and and pretend to be kings

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Speaker 1: and dukes and whatnot. And at at those early balls,

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Speaker 1: the men would wear these elaborate costumes, whereas the wives

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Speaker 1: would just swear you know, typical gowns. Um Although in

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Speaker 1: eighteen seventy two, at the very first Rex Parade, which

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Speaker 1: today is I mean it's still one of the biggest

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Speaker 1: super crews as they're called, there were some women who

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Speaker 1: dressed up as men in order to march behind the parade,

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Speaker 1: gotta cross dressed just to even participate. That's right. Well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: like you said, women weren't really allowed or you know,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't the tradition for women to dress up or

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Speaker 1: you know, masquerade. But in e you have a group

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Speaker 1: of upper class women who founded Lay Mysterio Uses that's

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Speaker 1: not how you say it, um, a non parading organization.

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Speaker 1: So they were dressing up, but they weren't parading, and

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Speaker 1: their big thing was to host a ball that reversed

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Speaker 1: gender traditions. They alone were allowed to dress in costumes

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Speaker 1: and in masquerade, concealing their identities, and they got They

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Speaker 1: picked a queen who selected her own queen. But they

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Speaker 1: only had held two balls and disbanded in nineteen hundred. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: You see a number of these all women crews kind

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Speaker 1: of pop up and then sort of dissolved. Um. So

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Speaker 1: for instance, um, you have the Mittens which came around

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Speaker 1: in nineteen o one, which were composed of debutantes, but

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Speaker 1: it only lasted until nineteen twenty, and then in nineteen

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Speaker 1: o six, you have the Mystic Maids, in nineteen eleven

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Speaker 1: the Crew of Yami, and then in nineteen seventeen though,

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Speaker 1: you have the Crew of Iris, which is still in existence. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And they began by hosting small king cake parties, which

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Speaker 1: sounds like exactly what I want to go to. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And they now claimed to be the oldest and largest

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Speaker 1: of all the female carnival crews. UH. In nineteen forty nine,

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Speaker 1: they held an extravagant first ball which was actually televised,

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Speaker 1: and ten years later, in nineteen fifty nine, I actually

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Speaker 1: started parading Yeah, it took that long for them to

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Speaker 1: start having parades, which to me seems so strange because

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Speaker 1: i mean, I know that the balls are a big deal. Um,

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Speaker 1: but Okay, a ball's fine, but I'm all about the parade. Sure, exactly,

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Speaker 1: candy and beads, man, that's right. Um. And it, like

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Speaker 1: I said, it's still parades, but it's a day parade

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Speaker 1: that happens two weekends before Mardi Grass, So it's not

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Speaker 1: exactly in the in a prime spot. Yeah, exactly. Um.

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Speaker 1: But in the nineteen twenties you do start to see

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Speaker 1: the formation of several African American women's crews, including the

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Speaker 1: Red Circle, Young Ladies twenty three and the Mystic Crew.

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Speaker 1: And this is notable because for the you know, crews

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Speaker 1: like the Crew of Isis, Mystic Maids and I'm sure

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Speaker 1: laymistere Uses, they were not inviting to women who were

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Speaker 1: not white and not of the upper of a cross standing. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The defense that everybody in these kind of upper class

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Speaker 1: crewis give is that it's like, well, it's just it's

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Speaker 1: just me of friends, you know, I'm just I'm not discriminating,

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Speaker 1: It's just that I'm only inviting my friends and family.

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Speaker 1: But thankfully in scrappy New Orleans tradition, that does not

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Speaker 1: stop other people from forming crews. So you do have

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Speaker 1: the emergence of those early UM African American all women crews,

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Speaker 1: like the Young Ladies twenty three UM. But we should

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Speaker 1: note too that in ninete that is when you have

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Speaker 1: the first women's parade. Even though the Crew of Iris

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Speaker 1: is older, it's the Crew of Venus with their inaugural

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Speaker 1: pageant that kicks off women parading. Yeah, and they did

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Speaker 1: not have an easy time of it. They paraded during

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Speaker 1: a downpour and the crowd was hardly kind. It was

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Speaker 1: very hostile. And Arthur Hardy, who's a Marti Gras historian,

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Speaker 1: points out that, yeah, they got a lot of publicity,

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Speaker 1: but none of it was positive. Yeah. He was talking

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Speaker 1: to the Alt Weekly in New Orleans, the Gambit, saying,

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Speaker 1: it's interesting to look at the newspaper clippings from back

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Speaker 1: then because it was front page news, women on floats,

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Speaker 1: the apocalypse is near, And he goes on to say,

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Speaker 1: I'm exaggerating a little bit, but really not much. But

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Speaker 1: what's also notable about the Crew of Venus is that, yes,

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Speaker 1: these are all white women, all wealthy women, but a

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Speaker 1: lot of them too at this time are becoming businesswomen

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Speaker 1: in their own right, and so they're starting up their

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Speaker 1: own crews because they don't need men to pay for them.

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Speaker 1: So they're like, hey, listen, guys, y'all can go do

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Speaker 1: your you know, your rex thing, and we're going to

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Speaker 1: do ours. And in a way, like Hardie talks about

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Speaker 1: how it was sort of symbolic of early glass ceiling tapping,

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Speaker 1: at least that was going on defying gender norms at

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Speaker 1: Marty Gras, Go for it, go for it well all

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Speaker 1: the way. Flash forward half a century into two thousand

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Speaker 1: and that's when you have the Crew of Muses form

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Speaker 1: and they are the first of the contemporary all female

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Speaker 1: parading crews to organize a night parade which occurs on

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Speaker 1: the Thursday before Marty Gras, which is a much more

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Speaker 1: prestigious spot than the Crew of Iris had. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: and Muses is part of this more recent movement among

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Speaker 1: newer crews to be more open and egalitarian, and they

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Speaker 1: have that open membership like you and I could apply

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Speaker 1: online right now, Caroline um as a way to democratize

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Speaker 1: the crew system and make it not just a thing

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Speaker 1: where it's only white, rich people, but opening it up

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Speaker 1: to make sure that it's economically diverse and also racially diverse.

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Speaker 1: And um, I would also like to note that the

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Speaker 1: Muses have one of the best premium throws as in

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Speaker 1: the you know the stuff that they toss passers by. Um.

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Speaker 1: They collect high heels from their members throughout the year

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Speaker 1: and then leading up to the Martigrad parade they decorate

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Speaker 1: them and all sorts of fun things and throw them

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Speaker 1: out and what and it's uh all. Some have said

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Speaker 1: that they're just waiting for a lawsuit because you can

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Speaker 1: imagine throwing high heels into a crowd of drunk people

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Speaker 1: might not be wise, but that makes it so exciting

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Speaker 1: when you have big throws like that. It's similar to

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Speaker 1: the Zulu Parade where the signature throws a coconut right

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Speaker 1: which tends to dent cars and heads. But yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: a similar thing. But you know Robin Roberts, who in

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Speaker 1: her two thousand and six book on the topic really

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Speaker 1: really dove into the gender of gender and history of

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Speaker 1: Mardy Gras points out the significance of holding this night parade.

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Speaker 1: This is this is a big deal, especially for an

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Speaker 1: all women group, because she says that by scheduling their

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Speaker 1: parade at night. The crew of Muses are self consciously

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Speaker 1: challenging the domination of these elite male crews. They're moving

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Speaker 1: from the behind the scenes roles that women traditionally filled

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Speaker 1: during Mardi Gras. They're getting out there on the parade

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Speaker 1: route and uh now organizing and performing center stage in

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Speaker 1: their own parade. Like you said, they don't need no

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Speaker 1: stinking man. Well, and they've become so popular that there's

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Speaker 1: actually a wait list now to even get into the parade.

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Speaker 1: It's one of the large are just Cruise, and it's

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Speaker 1: only one of two all females super Cruise. There's also

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Speaker 1: one called Nicks in y X. But Muses, at least

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Speaker 1: from my experience, is extremely popular. People love the Muses parade.

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Speaker 1: It's a lot of fun, but it's also I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's also at night, and if you're a night parade

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Speaker 1: during Marty Gras, it's probably gonna be a little bit

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Speaker 1: more fun because, let's space it. You've been drinking hurricanes

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Speaker 1: all day. Lord, I just can't imagine how much I

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Speaker 1: would how much I would pass out. But you're also

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Speaker 1: weighted down by beads. I get bead fever whenever I go,

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Speaker 1: and at first I get really excited and start trying

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Speaker 1: to catch as many beads as possible. But then once

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Speaker 1: you have about five pounds of beads around your neck,

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Speaker 1: You're like nothing, nothing else. Don't toss me anything else

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Speaker 1: unless it's a bloody Mary. And I feel like I'm

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Speaker 1: I'm painting quite a rosy picture of Marty Gras. But

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Speaker 1: there is one thing that certainly stands out in the parade,

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Speaker 1: and that is the fact that even today it is

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Speaker 1: very segregated. Yeah, the effort to actually racially desegregate and

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Speaker 1: we're not even talking about gender yet, we're talking about

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Speaker 1: racial segregation. The effort to desegregate these parades and parties

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Speaker 1: was led by a long time civil rights advocate, Dorothy

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Speaker 1: May Taylor. She was the first woman elected to the

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Speaker 1: New Orleans City Council in nineteen eighties six and back

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Speaker 1: in n she proposed an ordinance to desegregate the gentleman's

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Speaker 1: luncheon clubs that had been the public face of the

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Speaker 1: Marty Gross cruise crews weren't actually desegregated until ninet And

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Speaker 1: basically the reasoning behind this was like, it wasn't so

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Speaker 1: much that oh, we have to have fifty fifty or

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Speaker 1: we need these quotas to make these crews racially equal.

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Speaker 1: It had a lot more to do with going all

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Speaker 1: the way back to the origin of the American Mardy Grass.

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Speaker 1: So the origin of Carnival and Marty Grass in general

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Speaker 1: was the pagan rituals, right, But in America it had

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Speaker 1: a lot more to do with businessmen, white upper class

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Speaker 1: elite businessmen getting together and striking deals. And if those

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Speaker 1: deals are closed off to the bulk of society, including

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Speaker 1: African Americans, it's kind of not a level playing field. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, because that's one thing you might not think

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Speaker 1: about as an outsider looking in at Mardi Gras, that

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Speaker 1: the US crews throughout the year are actually very powerful

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Speaker 1: networking opportunities, especially if you're in something like, uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: the the Rex Crew, which costs a lot of money

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Speaker 1: to join. But in this whole talk of desegregation really

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Speaker 1: set off a firestorm among a lot of these crews,

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Speaker 1: and in fact, Comus and another crew called Momus canceled

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Speaker 1: their parades that year in protest. They were like, listen, no,

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Speaker 1: we don't we don't want to have to do this.

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Speaker 1: And um, I was reading a story before we came

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Speaker 1: into the studio today from the Times Pecune. I think

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Speaker 1: it was came out last year looking back at the

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Speaker 1: or maybe it was from two thousand twelve because it

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Speaker 1: was looking at the twenty years since desegregation debacle because

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Speaker 1: people were so panicked by it and um. The takeaway

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Speaker 1: from the story was that a lot of the desegregation

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Speaker 1: that has happened has been a lot more organic through

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Speaker 1: organizations like the Muses starting up. And I believe Orpheus

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Speaker 1: is a newer crew that's a lot you know, it

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Speaker 1: just accepts everybody. So it's almost like with a new

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Speaker 1: generation coming in and taking over Marty Grass. They're just

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Speaker 1: sort of doing it in their own way and not

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Speaker 1: paying as much attention to the old guard like white

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Speaker 1: secret society factor. Yeah. Well, an earlier version of Taylor's

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Speaker 1: ordinance had actually called for an end to gender discrimination

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Speaker 1: as well, but it was thrown out because not only

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Speaker 1: were men not excited about this, but women were like, hey, hey, wait, wait, wait,

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Speaker 1: we want our own things too. Like you know, women today,

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Speaker 1: especially like the Muses, are like, no, we don't want

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Speaker 1: to have to accept men, so we're fine if they

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Speaker 1: don't accept us. Because we're not accepting them either. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's funny they want to keep their own floats to themselves.

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Speaker 1: And one woman made a point saying that I think

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Speaker 1: she was she's a member of the Muses, talking about

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Speaker 1: how listen, Marty grav is the time when you know,

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Speaker 1: things can get weird really fast and if you have

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Speaker 1: I mean, they're not supposed to drink on the floats,

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00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:32,359
Speaker 1: but it totally happens. And they're like, if you mix

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Speaker 1: alcohol and say a husband and wife standing next to

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Speaker 1: each other and the husband tosses beads too an attractive

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Speaker 1: girl in the sideline. She was like, it's just that's

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Speaker 1: just one example of how things could get uncomfortable, right.

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Speaker 1: And Arthur Hardy, that Marti Gras historian, UH talked to

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Speaker 1: a lot of these women and he said, look, the

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Speaker 1: ladies crew said, we love men, but they are not

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Speaker 1: going to dress with us or being our floats. They

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Speaker 1: can just meet us at the end of the parade.

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Speaker 1: And so that ordin was amended to allow for single

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Speaker 1: gender cruise gender exclusion a okay on all sides that

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Speaker 1: it was that racial aspect that was the one that

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Speaker 1: was more contested, But we also need to talk about

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Speaker 1: how African Americans in New Orleans have also made their

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Speaker 1: own Mardi Gras traditions. While this is happening, that that

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Speaker 1: initiative in wasn't like, oh, no, you know, there's nothing

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Speaker 1: for them. No, They've been doing their own thing for

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Speaker 1: a while, right, like the Marty Gras Indians who began

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Speaker 1: appearing in the late nineteenth century, and the first group

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Speaker 1: was the Creole wild West from the seventh ward. And

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Speaker 1: there's some origin theories about these participants, one of which

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Speaker 1: is that the groups are honoring Native Americans who helped

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Speaker 1: hide runaway slaves from bounty hunters and slave masters. Another

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Speaker 1: theory is that the Buffalo Bill's Wild West show that

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Speaker 1: traveled through New Orleans in the late nineteenth century inspired

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Speaker 1: African Americans to dress as Indians. Others that were interviewed

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Speaker 1: in the news talked about how because a lot of

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Speaker 1: their costumes kind of harken back to like an Afro

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00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:09,600
Speaker 1: Caribbean heritage or a West African heritage, that they are, yes,

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Speaker 1: honoring Native Americans, but also honoring their own West African heritage. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I mean then their costumes, which a lot of

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Speaker 1: them make themselves, are incredible in the level of like

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Speaker 1: craftsmanship and detail that goes into it. Um. But we've

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Speaker 1: also got to talk about the Crew of Zulu because

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00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:32,560
Speaker 1: Zulu is a tough parade to make because it's early

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Speaker 1: in the morning and if you've been out at a

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00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:38,800
Speaker 1: night parade, that can be hard to make, but it's

397
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Speaker 1: so worth it. The Crew of Zulu started out as

398
00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:46,760
Speaker 1: a Zulu social aid and pleasure club, and apparently it

399
00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:50,040
Speaker 1: was essentially a group of like African American men who

400
00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:53,760
Speaker 1: got together to sort of parody these rich white guys

401
00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:55,960
Speaker 1: secret societies are like, oh, yeah, we're gonna do this

402
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Speaker 1: to look at these white guys wanting to make themselves

403
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Speaker 1: kings for a day. Yeah. And what's funny about the

404
00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:04,359
Speaker 1: Crew of Zulu is they are dressing in black face,

405
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:09,120
Speaker 1: wearing grass skirts and coconut bras, things that like, you know,

406
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Speaker 1: if if one of these elite white men and the

407
00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:13,320
Speaker 1: Rex Crew, for instance, where to do, it would be

408
00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:17,119
Speaker 1: incredibly racist. Yeah, I mean, basically, what they're taking is

409
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:21,760
Speaker 1: all of the racism that has been directed at them

410
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:26,280
Speaker 1: and making a complete mockery out of it. Right. And

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Speaker 1: uh So they came together and had marched together as

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Speaker 1: early as nineteen o one, but the first official Zulu

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Speaker 1: parade happened in nineteen o nine and a few years

414
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Speaker 1: later we have the emergence of the million Dollar Baby Dolls.

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Speaker 1: And this was a group that I hadn't heard about before,

416
00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:47,800
Speaker 1: but it was an organization of African American women who

417
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:51,360
Speaker 1: were a lot of them were working in the Storyville district,

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00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:54,320
Speaker 1: which is no more, but it was a Storyville was

419
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:59,800
Speaker 1: New Orleans red light district. Yeah, And so they sort

420
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:03,080
Speaker 1: of use their profits from working in that red light

421
00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:07,479
Speaker 1: district to compete with other African American prostitutes on Mardi Gras.

422
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:12,160
Speaker 1: And the origin of the name and their costumes came

423
00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:16,720
Speaker 1: from reclaiming what pimps called them basically, which were which

424
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:20,800
Speaker 1: was baby doll. And so they donned short satin dresses,

425
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:25,240
Speaker 1: stockings with garters and bonnets. But they paired that you know,

426
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:29,600
Speaker 1: play on dressing like baby dolls against bold and provocative

427
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:32,280
Speaker 1: public behavior for at the time that not only exploited

428
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:36,280
Speaker 1: stereotypes but empowered them, made them visible. It brought them

429
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:39,000
Speaker 1: out of that red light district where they were basically

430
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:43,120
Speaker 1: segregated in their own black red light district, and brought

431
00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:46,320
Speaker 1: them out into the streets to parade. Yeah, and uh, recently,

432
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:48,760
Speaker 1: Kim marie Vez wrote an entire book about this called

433
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:51,520
Speaker 1: The Baby Dolls, Breaking the race and gender barriers of

434
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:54,640
Speaker 1: the New Orleans Mardi Gras tradition. And I don't think

435
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:57,680
Speaker 1: the Baby Dolls they aren't a crew necessarily, they don't

436
00:25:57,720 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 1: have their own float or anything like that, but they

437
00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:04,359
Speaker 1: march through the parades um. And in her history of

438
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:08,240
Speaker 1: the Baby Dolls, Voz talks about how they later collected

439
00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:11,359
Speaker 1: dues and helped dances to raise money for their baby

440
00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:16,040
Speaker 1: doll costumes, which possibly made them the first organization in

441
00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 1: fact of parading women, predating that I believe n crew

442
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:24,760
Speaker 1: of Venus Parade that we mentioned earlier, and she talks

443
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:28,600
Speaker 1: about how at the time, high society white women's carnival

444
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:32,720
Speaker 1: organizations held balls, but they didn't parade. So the Baby

445
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 1: Dolls were the first, and a lot of them have resurfaced.

446
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:39,960
Speaker 1: A lot of women in New Orleans are are kind

447
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:42,960
Speaker 1: of reforming these groups as a nod to their heritage. Yeah,

448
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,760
Speaker 1: and and in one less nod again to the African

449
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:50,159
Speaker 1: American traditions around Marti Gras. One of my one of

450
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:53,600
Speaker 1: my favorite things too are the second line parades that happen,

451
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:56,480
Speaker 1: and those are just the brass bands that will march

452
00:26:56,520 --> 00:27:00,480
Speaker 1: along behind the floats or alongside the flow oats and

453
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:04,359
Speaker 1: really keep spirits high. I know, I love those marching bands.

454
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:06,560
Speaker 1: I say, like, I've been to New Orleans, but I

455
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:10,360
Speaker 1: like them when I see them on television exactly. Well, Caroline,

456
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:12,520
Speaker 1: now we've got to talk about what I have a

457
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:15,280
Speaker 1: feeling a lot of podcast listeners have been waiting for

458
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:19,639
Speaker 1: in this episode, which is digging into the issue of

459
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:23,240
Speaker 1: boobs and beads. And we'll talk about that right after

460
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:26,399
Speaker 1: we come back from a quick break. But now, Caroline,

461
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:31,440
Speaker 1: boobs and beads. Yeah, I would think, you know, if I,

462
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 1: you know, as someone who's never been to New Orleans

463
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:37,560
Speaker 1: Marty Gras, I would think that's all there is to it.

464
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:40,160
Speaker 1: That's that's what people are doing, morning, noon and night.

465
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 1: And a lot of women in New Orleans are very

466
00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:47,960
Speaker 1: upset that this is perceived as an entrenched tradition. Yeah,

467
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:52,200
Speaker 1: if you go to more of the neighborhood Marty Grass

468
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 1: celebrations and go and see like the larger parades, you're

469
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:58,160
Speaker 1: not going to see a lot of nudity, because I mean,

470
00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:01,400
Speaker 1: they're also kids every where up and down the streets,

471
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:03,640
Speaker 1: and it's more of a family kind of thing. It's

472
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,480
Speaker 1: really once you get into the French Quarter and go

473
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 1: to Bourbon Street where you have all the balconies that

474
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:16,080
Speaker 1: you see all the bo and some penisils and butts. Yeah.

475
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:19,160
Speaker 1: Women writing on the website Marty Grand New Orleans dot

476
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:25,200
Speaker 1: com blame it on basically some spring break college age

477
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 1: tourists who you know, end up getting fall down drunk

478
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:35,480
Speaker 1: on Bourbon Street, losing their inhibitions and flashing various genitalia

479
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 1: at people on the floats. Yeah, but uh well there

480
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:40,720
Speaker 1: wouldn't be any floats in the French Quarter. This is

481
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 1: all people in the balconies with beads yelling down to people.

482
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:47,800
Speaker 1: And I mean every now and then you'll have people

483
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 1: in the street yelling up. But uh yeah, it's it's

484
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 1: a site to see in a site that unfortunately you

485
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 1: sometimes can't forget. Um. But there is a paper called

486
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:01,440
Speaker 1: Ritual Disrobement at Marty gross Sara Ammonial Exchange in Moral

487
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:04,520
Speaker 1: Order by a pair of researchers at l s U,

488
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:07,840
Speaker 1: which I was very excited to find because I was like, yes,

489
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 1: there is an academic paper on boobs and beads at

490
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:16,240
Speaker 1: Marty Gras. And they think though that the nudity began

491
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 1: in the mid seventies largely because the French Quarter had

492
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:22,920
Speaker 1: become sort of a haven for gay men and during

493
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 1: Marty Gras they would get really wild and the tendency

494
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:30,000
Speaker 1: flashing their penises. Um, But they say that it really

495
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:34,239
Speaker 1: didn't become a widespread feature until the nineteen eighties. So

496
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 1: he had big bangs and boobs coming out at this time. Yeah,

497
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:42,440
Speaker 1: And they do they talk about the gender and social hierarchies,

498
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:45,000
Speaker 1: and do note that it was both men and women

499
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 1: ritually disrobing, but women disrobing far more often than men.

500
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 1: And what what these researchers did the it's the creepiest

501
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 1: methodology I've ever read, because they essentially set up cameras

502
00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 1: all around the French Quarter to cap sure moments of disrobement.

503
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 1: And they found that in terms of catching beads without

504
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 1: flashing something, guys were getting beats seventy percent a time,

505
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 1: not han't show anything women and this is French Quarter specific,

506
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 1: which makes a difference. But for women it was only

507
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 1: twenty two point five percent a time. And it's true.

508
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 1: And if I walk down Bourbon Street. No, for the

509
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 1: record podcast listeners, No, I all of my beads have

510
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 1: come from non disrobement, keeping my shirt on. But if

511
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 1: I walked through Bourbon Street, now you're not going to

512
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:37,120
Speaker 1: get anything. You're not showing showing off your gals. Well,

513
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:40,880
Speaker 1: you know, I think that's good to hear. Yeah, I think.

514
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:44,280
Speaker 1: I think the history of Marty Grass is so rich

515
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:49,120
Speaker 1: and colorful and amazing. I I love that it came

516
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 1: from pagan orgies that were incorporated into Christianity, and that

517
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 1: now it's just like this long stretch of a good

518
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 1: time before you go into Lent. Speaking of the pagan rituals,

519
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:03,960
Speaker 1: you could say that perhaps the nudity that you see

520
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:08,680
Speaker 1: today is merely a manifestation of that uh Shrum and kilborn.

521
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:13,000
Speaker 1: Those l s U researchers right that, owing to the

522
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:17,760
Speaker 1: continuing significance of gender differences in sexuality, women sometimes adopt

523
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:21,320
Speaker 1: the identity of ritual objects you perform for the veneration

524
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:27,440
Speaker 1: of the crowd, and hence bear their breasts for beads.

525
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 1: So like, we're almost like floats too, exactly. We have

526
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 1: two we have two floats. We have two floats. Yeah,

527
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:36,840
Speaker 1: but I would like to underscore on behalf of all

528
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:41,320
Speaker 1: the New Orleans locals out there that yeah, you don't ladies,

529
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 1: you don't have to show you moobs forads. Yeah, just

530
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:46,800
Speaker 1: go go and have a good time and have a

531
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 1: good time. And you know what, Hey, if you if you,

532
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:50,320
Speaker 1: if you end up in the French Quarter and you

533
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:53,280
Speaker 1: do and you want to do it, Okay, we're not

534
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 1: going to judge you. But in the era of camera

535
00:31:56,560 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 1: phones and Twitter, the fact that it still happens astonishes me.

536
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:10,080
Speaker 1: And I'm like, okay, yeah, the era of Joe Francis, Yeah,

537
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:13,960
Speaker 1: of girls gone wild. Yeah. Um. So this was really

538
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 1: fun though, to look at the the gender and racial

539
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 1: intersections of Marty Gras because it's a it's a whole

540
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:24,240
Speaker 1: lot of fun in general in terms of just a

541
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:29,040
Speaker 1: wild event that I think everybody should experience once. Um.

542
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:31,120
Speaker 1: But there's yeah, there's a lot of rich history to it.

543
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 1: Are a lot of layers to this, to the still kincake,

544
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:37,320
Speaker 1: and I mean, I want to hear listeners, layers like

545
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 1: I want to hear you tell us about your Marty

546
00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 1: Grow experiences. So yeah, send us all of your Marty

547
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:47,120
Speaker 1: Grow thoughts mom stuff at Discovery dot com. And hey,

548
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:53,200
Speaker 1: if you want a male Caroline, a kincake Kristen too, Yeah, totally,

549
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:58,280
Speaker 1: you can do that as well. Uh moms have Discovery

550
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:02,360
Speaker 1: dot com and for all of our sources on this episode,

551
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 1: you can head over to stuff mom and ever Told

552
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:07,080
Speaker 1: You dot com and click on the podcast link and

553
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:10,160
Speaker 1: you will see the episode which contains all of our

554
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 1: sources for further Madigro reading. So we've got a couple

555
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:17,240
Speaker 1: of letters to share with you right now. In fact,

556
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:23,640
Speaker 1: I have a message here from Mindy who wrote us

557
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:27,840
Speaker 1: to say thanks for the Understanding Miscarriage episode. It has

558
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:30,480
Speaker 1: been nine years and I have two healthy children, but

559
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 1: it sometimes causes a lot of heartache. The podcast made

560
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 1: it easier to talk to my best friend about it,

561
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:39,360
Speaker 1: and we have had similar experiences. We both feel like

562
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:41,680
Speaker 1: a huge load has been lifted and we both feel

563
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:45,080
Speaker 1: a lot better. Thanks for being so amazing, and thank

564
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 1: you Mindy for your letter, and I'm so glad it's

565
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:51,240
Speaker 1: sparked a conversation between you two. Well, I've been an

566
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 1: email here from Kara, and it's actually not about a

567
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:58,520
Speaker 1: podcast that we've done, UM, but a Twitter conversation that

568
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 1: started uh few weeks ago, and I asked, um, Twitter

569
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:06,400
Speaker 1: followers at Mom's Stuff podcast about whether they thought that

570
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:10,160
Speaker 1: quote unquote skinny shaming or thin shaming exists. And this

571
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:12,760
Speaker 1: was in response to a question that we had received

572
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:16,759
Speaker 1: on YouTube, and Karen not only tweeted back, but she

573
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:20,080
Speaker 1: also sent a follow up email. Um and and for

574
00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 1: the record, all of the Twitter responses that I received

575
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 1: were very much like, Yeah, I know this, This totally exists,

576
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 1: so we need to stop it as much as fat

577
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:30,320
Speaker 1: shaming needs to stop. So, she writes, I've been dealing

578
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:33,319
Speaker 1: with skinny shaming myself since I was about fifteen years old.

579
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 1: Ever since I hit puberty, I've been tall, thin, and

580
00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:38,640
Speaker 1: large breasted, and I've always been criticized for it. I

581
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:41,120
Speaker 1: eat plenty of cheeseburgers, but I also work out to

582
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:44,799
Speaker 1: stay active, and I also avoid unhealthy foods, and on

583
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:46,960
Speaker 1: top of that, I am blessed with a fast metabolism

584
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 1: and quote unquote thin jeans. My first experience with skinny

585
00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 1: shaming came from my own grandmother, who asked everyone in

586
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:55,279
Speaker 1: my family if I wasn't eating, and whenever I went

587
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:57,160
Speaker 1: to the bathroom, she would follow me and ask what

588
00:34:57,239 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 1: I was doing, because you thought I was throwing up

589
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:03,160
Speaker 1: zero is my size because I have a small waist

590
00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:06,560
Speaker 1: and minimal hips doesn't mean that anything is wrong. I

591
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:08,560
Speaker 1: believe it. If you're treating your body with respect and

592
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 1: living well, then your body is just right. How many

593
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:13,480
Speaker 1: times have we heard that people come in all shapes

594
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:16,919
Speaker 1: and sizes and this applies to everyone, no matter how

595
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:21,560
Speaker 1: big or small. And I agree with Kara and wanted

596
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 1: to share this email to kind of open up this

597
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:27,400
Speaker 1: discussion even more broadly, to see if we should devote

598
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:32,120
Speaker 1: perhaps an entire podcast to this issue of body shaming

599
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:35,919
Speaker 1: and how it often does get this divisive pitting fat

600
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:40,160
Speaker 1: shaming versus thin shaming, and wanted to get listeners thoughts

601
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:43,280
Speaker 1: on that, So let us know. Mom Stuff at Discovery

602
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:44,759
Speaker 1: dot com is where you can email us, or you

603
00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:46,960
Speaker 1: can just also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or

604
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:49,960
Speaker 1: send us a message on Facebook as well. And to

605
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:54,800
Speaker 1: find all things sminty, all of our podcast, blogs and videos,

606
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 1: and all of our social media links, you need to

607
00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,560
Speaker 1: head over to our website It's stuff Mom Never Told

608
00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:06,360
Speaker 1: You dot com for more on this and thalucands of

609
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:16,720
Speaker 1: other topics. Is It how Stuff Works dot com