WEBVTT - Golf Architecture Mailbag: College Golf Courses, Value Golf Trips, and More

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<v Speaker 1>I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset.

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<v Speaker 2>When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.

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<v Speaker 2>And when I find my ball.

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<v Speaker 1>In a Frida egg Friday egg, the dreaded Friday Egg, Friday,

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<v Speaker 1>Frida Egg brid Egg, Frida Egg bride egg Lie.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm about ready to run off of the hump. Welcome

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<v Speaker 2>back to another edition of the Friday eg Golf Podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm your host, Andy Johnson, and I am joined by

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<v Speaker 2>a fellow co host here, Garrett Morrison. We are going

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<v Speaker 2>to continue our architecture mail bag. We recorded a podcast

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<v Speaker 2>earlier this week that kind of centered around golf architecture.

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<v Speaker 2>We talked about the rankings, we talked about our event courses,

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<v Speaker 2>and we did a mail bag where we got to

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<v Speaker 2>a few questions. I think our conversation about the top

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<v Speaker 2>one hundred rankings recently released by Golf Magazine went a

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<v Speaker 2>little bit longer than we anticipated, so we got to

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<v Speaker 2>fewer questions. So thus we're we're going to dive into

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of questions in this podcast and get to

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<v Speaker 2>those reader and listener questions. So Garrett, welcome on, Thanks

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<v Speaker 2>for joining big week here of mail bag questioned question pods.

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<v Speaker 1>Good to be here. Thanks for having me on. You

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<v Speaker 1>want to dive right in.

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<v Speaker 2>I was going to talk about our friends over at

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<v Speaker 2>True Golf first.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, of course I got to do that.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. You know, they make this stuff possible. If you're

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<v Speaker 2>into golf architecture, if you're into playing golf courses, True

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<v Speaker 2>Golf is something you can do during these winter months.

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<v Speaker 2>They have a product called launch Box, and it is

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<v Speaker 2>a launch monitor is a poor launch monitor and golf

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<v Speaker 2>simulator from True Golf. It seamlessly connects to your PC

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<v Speaker 2>or iOS device, and it makes it super easy to

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<v Speaker 2>play golf courses or improve your golf game year round.

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<v Speaker 2>I would love to just get really dialed in on

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<v Speaker 2>Wedge practice go DJ style with my with my Wedge game,

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<v Speaker 2>and I'm thinking that the launch Box will be perfect

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<v Speaker 2>for that. A couple of things that the launch Box

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<v Speaker 2>offers simple setup, instant shot registration, accurate measure data, and

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<v Speaker 2>easy and easy Wi Fi connection. So one of the

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<v Speaker 2>great things about this product it can be used inside,

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<v Speaker 2>So if you want to set up like kind of

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<v Speaker 2>an in home setup, you could use it inside. If

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<v Speaker 2>you want to convert a part of your garage to

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<v Speaker 2>this or your basement. You could do that inside or

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<v Speaker 2>if you're in a more temperate place where outside practice

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<v Speaker 2>is feasible at this time of year. It works off

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<v Speaker 2>mats side, so this could be even an outdoor setup

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<v Speaker 2>where you find a part of your backyard, put a

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<v Speaker 2>matt down, put this baby out there and get a

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<v Speaker 2>net and it can be that. So it's really versatile.

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<v Speaker 2>You can obviously can take to the driving range as well,

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<v Speaker 2>but one of the neat things is you can play

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<v Speaker 2>golf courses. So it is a way to stay fresh.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a way to scratch that golf itch, especially these

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<v Speaker 2>winter months. If you want to learn more about True

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<v Speaker 2>Golf's launch box, go to True golf dot com slash egg.

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<v Speaker 2>That's True Golf t r U g o lf dot

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<v Speaker 2>com slash egg. All right, let's dive into the architecture

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<v Speaker 2>mail bag. We got a ton of questions, so let's

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<v Speaker 2>just get cooking here. Let's talk about LINEA Withthikam ask

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<v Speaker 2>Michigan and Yale excluded. What are some of your favorite

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<v Speaker 2>university owned golf courses architecture wise, now that Yale is

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<v Speaker 2>under renovation, any courses you can think of that should

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<v Speaker 2>have work done?

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<v Speaker 1>Great question? I haven't played all of these, but the

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<v Speaker 1>list I came up with when I saw Lenea's question

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<v Speaker 1>included the Iowa State Course Vinker Memorial I think.

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<v Speaker 2>Is what it's called, Perry Maxwell.

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<v Speaker 1>Perry Maxwell Golf Course could use some work, probably some

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<v Speaker 1>restoration work, So that would be, like candidate number one,

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<v Speaker 1>probably the course that I'm most interested in seeing and

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<v Speaker 1>finding out more about. Certainly, Stanford Golf Course is a

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<v Speaker 1>classic George Thomas Billy Bell designed, I think mostly Billy Bell.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm not sure of the history there, but I've played

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<v Speaker 1>this course and it was years ago. But a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of cool holes out there and some great land.

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<v Speaker 2>I have too. This is definitely a high potential one

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<v Speaker 2>where you could it could just get a lot better.

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<v Speaker 2>I think like they have an awesome practice facility for

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<v Speaker 2>the team, and I just imagine that they will continue

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<v Speaker 2>to upgrade. You know what's an interesting fact about Stanford.

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<v Speaker 2>Do you know what the most popular or the hardest

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<v Speaker 2>class to get into at Stanford is? No?

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<v Speaker 1>What is it?

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<v Speaker 2>Intro to golf?

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<v Speaker 1>Seriously, there's an intro to golf class, Yeah, that you

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<v Speaker 1>take for a grade.

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<v Speaker 2>Heard this the other day. Hardest class to get into

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<v Speaker 2>at Stanford.

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<v Speaker 1>Because everybody wants to do it. It sounds like a

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<v Speaker 1>like a fun little schedule filler.

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<v Speaker 2>I think two people like realize, hey, this would be

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<v Speaker 2>good for my career if I, if I am, if

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<v Speaker 2>I at least have some basic golf skills.

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<v Speaker 1>All the budding entrepreneurs and tech executives who go to

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<v Speaker 1>Stanford want to make sure that they can play some

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<v Speaker 1>rounds at Cow Club and Metal Club and Sam Francisco

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<v Speaker 1>Golf Club in such places.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I just I think it makes sense to have,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, a good, good place to play for the students.

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<v Speaker 2>It is a good place to play today. It could

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<v Speaker 2>be it could be better though.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, definitely could be better. There are some issues with

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<v Speaker 1>the property that have emerged over time, but also just

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<v Speaker 1>basic design stuff. I think they could take a look

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<v Speaker 1>at that course and consider what would Billy Bell do

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<v Speaker 1>here and make it a bit better. Certainly, Ohio State

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<v Speaker 1>Ohio State University. The Ohio State University has has some

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<v Speaker 1>Alistair mackenzie work that has perhaps not been particularly well

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<v Speaker 1>preserved by one of their alumni, Jack Nicholas Duke University

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<v Speaker 1>golf course Robert Trent Jones course that actually looks pretty cool.

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<v Speaker 1>I've never been there myself. But nineteen fifties Trent Jones.

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<v Speaker 2>I think that I think that one is a candidate

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<v Speaker 2>for a big renovation.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well you like, like do some Trent Jones stuff

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<v Speaker 1>there though, right, don't, don't just blow it up. I

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<v Speaker 1>want to see you know, this might be a radical

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<v Speaker 1>position these days, but I'd kind of want to see

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<v Speaker 1>some restorative work. Maybe improve some things here and there,

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<v Speaker 1>but go for the feel of the nineteen fifties Robert

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<v Speaker 1>Trent Jones golf course in a modern vein and yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean maybe with some modernizing touches, but take it

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<v Speaker 1>serious what he was doing.

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<v Speaker 2>You need to move some bunkers around.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, I need to move some bunkers around. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>That's like the hard thing with his style is it

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<v Speaker 2>was so so based on Carrie distances.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Kerrie oriented, Yeah, protecting par Yeah, you know that

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<v Speaker 1>kind of stuff is u is. It's hard. It's hard

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<v Speaker 1>to age that stuff. But there are what are a

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<v Speaker 1>bunch of others too? What other ones?

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<v Speaker 2>What about Dennison Golf Club?

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<v Speaker 1>You know, Okay, I don't know much about this one.

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<v Speaker 2>So don ross. Yeah, I haven't played been there. I

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<v Speaker 2>send people there all the time, who asked me for recommendations.

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<v Speaker 2>Really it's yeah, it's it's supposed to be really cool,

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<v Speaker 2>really cool property. Years ago they did like a kind

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<v Speaker 2>of a stupid project that like they moved, they went

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<v Speaker 2>up and they they kind of dis they got rid

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<v Speaker 2>of the original eighteen holes and they have like this

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<v Speaker 2>property up high that you go up to and it's

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<v Speaker 2>like a housing development for three holes, but there's fifteen

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<v Speaker 2>original Don Ross holes there on. Like a really nice property.

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<v Speaker 2>And yeah, I think Don Ross's work in Ohio, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I've seen a lot of his work in Ohio. It's

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<v Speaker 2>really outstanding. Like I think, like his work in Ohio

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<v Speaker 2>and Michigan's probably his best work. So that one is

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<v Speaker 2>really high on the list. I believe they have a

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<v Speaker 2>renovation plan and in the works there they have they

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<v Speaker 2>have maybe he could say, concepts of a plan and

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<v Speaker 2>the works with a with a very high profile architect.

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<v Speaker 2>So that's one that's that's pretty interesting.

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<v Speaker 1>I've maybe heard some rumblings about this. I think people

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<v Speaker 1>can probably guess the architect who might be involved. But

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<v Speaker 1>in any case, what's what's actually starts handalizing about university

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<v Speaker 1>courses is that often the universities have the ability to

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<v Speaker 1>restore or renovate the courses because they can draw on

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<v Speaker 1>these endowments that have over the past you know, twenty

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<v Speaker 1>years or so, really grown at a lot of these universities.

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<v Speaker 1>So that's why Yale is doing the work it's doing now,

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<v Speaker 1>and hopefully, you know, the University of Michigan gets its

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<v Speaker 1>act together sometime soon as well and takes a look

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<v Speaker 1>at it's Alistair McKenzie course.

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<v Speaker 2>We haven't mentioned, I mean these college the college stuff.

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<v Speaker 2>I think this is something we haven't really talked about

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<v Speaker 2>very much from like an architecture standpoint, that is actually

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<v Speaker 2>pretty fascinating. These college facilities, the college golf programs are

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<v Speaker 2>some of them are spending in insane amounts of money,

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<v Speaker 2>like insane amounts of money on practice facilities and golf courses.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, if you think about, like right now, University

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<v Speaker 2>Alabama is about to open a facility that I believe

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<v Speaker 2>I saw was like one hundred million dollars.

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<v Speaker 1>It did. It did open, I think, and the course

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<v Speaker 1>was renovated by Golf Design.

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<v Speaker 2>Or love Golf Design okay, I don't know, was Jase No,

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<v Speaker 2>it is love Golf Design, okay. Also being renovated is

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<v Speaker 2>the Carston Creek Course.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's right.

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<v Speaker 2>Oklahoma State their golf course. Andrew Green's doing a renovation there,

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<v Speaker 2>Like Vanderbilt just opened. I think it was like a

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<v Speaker 2>fifteen million dollar practice facility. I mean it is. I

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<v Speaker 2>do think like there is like we talk about golf

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<v Speaker 2>design and a lot of vain for like the retail golfer.

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<v Speaker 2>If if these college programs get to the point where

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<v Speaker 2>they're designing golf courses for their college program, it's kind

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<v Speaker 2>of a fascinating topic. Like how would you build a

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<v Speaker 2>golf course for a men's and women's college golf team?

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<v Speaker 2>Would do you build it? Like? To me, you're never

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<v Speaker 2>going to play NCAA's at that course. Do you build

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<v Speaker 2>the golf course to test like a wide like the

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<v Speaker 2>widest range of skills to like, do you build it

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<v Speaker 2>with different styles? Do you have like super narrow holes,

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<v Speaker 2>wider holes, greens that like maybe the greens over eighteen

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<v Speaker 2>holes don't fit together, but they offer a lot a

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<v Speaker 2>wide range of variety. I just like, I think it's

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<v Speaker 2>a fascinating topic because I think like the exercise of

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<v Speaker 2>if you wanted to purely build a golf course for

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<v Speaker 2>a college golf team, to practice at and play at

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<v Speaker 2>and to qualify that one of the most important things

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<v Speaker 2>is qualify at Like these court they this is the

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<v Speaker 2>course that deems who goes on the road for your team.

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<v Speaker 2>For the most part, I don't think you build a

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<v Speaker 2>golf course in the traditional retail golf sense.

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<v Speaker 1>Might be more of a test of skill as opposed

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<v Speaker 1>to maximum playability.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it'd be more of a test of skill,

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<v Speaker 2>and I think you would want to have like supreme

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<v Speaker 2>variety in the way you test the skill.

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<v Speaker 1>On the other hand, these courses also serve students and alumni.

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<v Speaker 2>Some of them. I think some of them are becoming.

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<v Speaker 1>More and more becoming more like training facilities. Yes, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>And I think that's sort of a bummer, because you know,

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<v Speaker 1>it's a really great addition to your college experience if

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<v Speaker 1>you can go out and play a great golf course

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<v Speaker 1>for cheap, I think that's a wonderful thing to offer students.

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<v Speaker 1>So I also think it's great as a potential academic exercise. Right,

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<v Speaker 1>you could take landscape architecture students out to this wonderfully

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<v Speaker 1>built golf course and have like an infield lesson about

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<v Speaker 1>some of the things that the architect did I think

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<v Speaker 1>that would be really cool. You know, I've always thought

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<v Speaker 1>that Yale's course had such potential in this regard, but

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<v Speaker 1>the university never really used it in that way. Right,

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<v Speaker 1>This is a university that really prizes its building architecture

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<v Speaker 1>and uses its building architecture for pedagogical purposes all the time.

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<v Speaker 1>But it has this classic SETH. Rayner golf course, unbelievable

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<v Speaker 1>golf course that's completely unique, and never really took advantage

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<v Speaker 1>of it as a teaching tool. And I think that

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<v Speaker 1>some of these golf courses can be that. Maybe that's

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<v Speaker 1>a bit of an exaggeration for some universities with the

0:13:59.080 --> 0:14:01.880
<v Speaker 1>golf courses that they have have, but certainly a Perry

0:14:01.880 --> 0:14:05.559
<v Speaker 1>Maxwell course at Ohio State could serve this purpose. I

0:14:05.600 --> 0:14:07.320
<v Speaker 1>don't know Michigan for sure.

0:14:07.400 --> 0:14:10.920
<v Speaker 2>Well, the thing that's interesting about the Ohio State thing

0:14:10.960 --> 0:14:15.640
<v Speaker 2>is they have thirty six holes. That's right, Like they

0:14:15.640 --> 0:14:18.719
<v Speaker 2>could make the scarlet they could build into like a

0:14:19.800 --> 0:14:23.880
<v Speaker 2>you know, Mackenzie inspired I don't think there's real there's

0:14:23.920 --> 0:14:25.640
<v Speaker 2>like I think there's a lot of questions about like

0:14:25.680 --> 0:14:31.080
<v Speaker 2>how much time he spent there, but also like the

0:14:31.160 --> 0:14:34.320
<v Speaker 2>idea of like, Okay, I don't know how well you

0:14:34.360 --> 0:14:38.720
<v Speaker 2>could put it back right, but like having a Mackenzie

0:14:38.800 --> 0:14:43.640
<v Speaker 2>inspired championship golf course on one side and then that

0:14:43.720 --> 0:14:46.640
<v Speaker 2>great course the other course that's like short, it's on

0:14:46.800 --> 0:14:49.320
<v Speaker 2>really nice land, Like it's a really nice piece of

0:14:49.360 --> 0:14:53.640
<v Speaker 2>property that could be just like super fun, beginner friendly

0:14:54.560 --> 0:14:55.360
<v Speaker 2>campus golf.

0:14:55.760 --> 0:14:59.400
<v Speaker 1>Right, Yeah, I love that idea. Yeah, well I can

0:14:59.440 --> 0:15:02.520
<v Speaker 1>I shout out a couple of other University of University

0:15:02.520 --> 0:15:03.760
<v Speaker 1>golf courses before we move on.

0:15:04.240 --> 0:15:07.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I was gonna throw out the forgotten Michigan course,

0:15:08.720 --> 0:15:12.960
<v Speaker 2>Raderick Farms. Yeah right, it's like super early Pete Die.

0:15:13.200 --> 0:15:14.000
<v Speaker 2>It's awesome.

0:15:15.080 --> 0:15:16.560
<v Speaker 1>Gu this Yeah, yeah.

0:15:16.440 --> 0:15:18.720
<v Speaker 2>I played it. I played it years ago, probably about

0:15:18.760 --> 0:15:20.840
<v Speaker 2>eight years ago. It was so fun.

0:15:23.040 --> 0:15:25.200
<v Speaker 1>Anderson talks about this one a lot. A guy who

0:15:25.280 --> 0:15:27.920
<v Speaker 1>shapes for Tom Doak and was on the podcast a

0:15:27.920 --> 0:15:30.800
<v Speaker 1>while back. He studied it at Michigan and yeah, loves

0:15:30.880 --> 0:15:31.920
<v Speaker 1>loves Raderick Farms.

0:15:32.040 --> 0:15:34.520
<v Speaker 2>Radrick is really cool. It's a cool piece of land,

0:15:35.120 --> 0:15:38.160
<v Speaker 2>some really neat holes, super fun place to play golf.

0:15:38.960 --> 0:15:42.520
<v Speaker 1>Nice all right. Other great ones the Warren Course at

0:15:42.520 --> 0:15:46.480
<v Speaker 1>Notre Dame. I don't know how closely associated it is

0:15:46.560 --> 0:15:49.240
<v Speaker 1>with the university. I think pretty closely associated right Arry,

0:15:49.600 --> 0:15:50.800
<v Speaker 1>But yeah, so it's there.

0:15:51.200 --> 0:15:54.240
<v Speaker 2>This was like the early uh that golf course is

0:15:54.360 --> 0:15:57.080
<v Speaker 2>different moment for me. I played a high school uh

0:15:57.640 --> 0:16:01.520
<v Speaker 2>like a national junior event there when I was like

0:16:01.640 --> 0:16:05.360
<v Speaker 2>fifteen or sixteen, and I'll like, never forget the greens.

0:16:06.200 --> 0:16:09.080
<v Speaker 2>The greens were unlike anything I'd like ever put it on.

0:16:09.400 --> 0:16:12.240
<v Speaker 2>They're really wild core Crunshaws greens.

0:16:13.200 --> 0:16:16.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, they went for it because the land is like

0:16:16.400 --> 0:16:20.480
<v Speaker 1>not quite sand Hills, you know. Yeah, so they went

0:16:20.520 --> 0:16:21.120
<v Speaker 1>for some things.

0:16:21.200 --> 0:16:24.160
<v Speaker 2>It's got some decent parts. It's got some decent moments

0:16:24.200 --> 0:16:26.280
<v Speaker 2>in the land, but for the most part is flat.

0:16:27.000 --> 0:16:29.720
<v Speaker 2>I played there a few years ago for the first

0:16:29.800 --> 0:16:33.920
<v Speaker 2>time since since then, it's that's one of the best

0:16:33.960 --> 0:16:35.000
<v Speaker 2>values in the world.

0:16:35.440 --> 0:16:38.600
<v Speaker 1>Yes, well, that's another thing about university courses is that

0:16:38.760 --> 0:16:42.200
<v Speaker 1>often they have a mission beyond just making money, and

0:16:42.240 --> 0:16:45.920
<v Speaker 1>so that means that they can sometimes offer affordable access

0:16:45.960 --> 0:16:49.320
<v Speaker 1>to the public, which is great. Tacnic Golf Club near

0:16:49.480 --> 0:16:54.440
<v Speaker 1>Williams College up in the up in the Massachusetts. We'll

0:16:54.480 --> 0:16:57.280
<v Speaker 1>always wanted to see that place, very cool place. I

0:16:57.280 --> 0:16:59.800
<v Speaker 1>actually played it when I was in college. The course

0:16:59.800 --> 0:17:04.080
<v Speaker 1>at Sawani nine hole, gil Han's golf course that you

0:17:04.160 --> 0:17:08.120
<v Speaker 1>seen that. I haven't seen it. It's it's pretty close

0:17:08.160 --> 0:17:11.080
<v Speaker 1>to Sweeten's Cove, Like it's within striking distance of Sweeten's Cove,

0:17:11.160 --> 0:17:13.040
<v Speaker 1>so it makes for like a good double.

0:17:13.800 --> 0:17:18.119
<v Speaker 2>I think it's absolutely insane that people are, like so

0:17:18.240 --> 0:17:21.320
<v Speaker 2>many people go to Sweetens and don't go to Swani.

0:17:22.040 --> 0:17:27.200
<v Speaker 1>Right, as long as you're out there apart and golf course,

0:17:27.240 --> 0:17:29.360
<v Speaker 1>you're not gonna you don't have to spend an extra day.

0:17:29.560 --> 0:17:33.160
<v Speaker 2>You know, well, you could do a day at Swane

0:17:33.240 --> 0:17:35.440
<v Speaker 2>and a day at Sweetens. You could do a day

0:17:35.440 --> 0:17:37.720
<v Speaker 2>at Sawane just like you do a day at Sweetens.

0:17:38.119 --> 0:17:38.960
<v Speaker 2>It's super fun.

0:17:39.720 --> 0:17:41.720
<v Speaker 1>I really I heard it's like a cool university too.

0:17:42.440 --> 0:17:45.440
<v Speaker 2>It seems cool. I mean, it seems like a very

0:17:45.480 --> 0:17:48.120
<v Speaker 2>beautiful place. I do look place to go to college.

0:17:48.640 --> 0:17:51.920
<v Speaker 2>It makes me feel it's one of those places. I

0:17:52.640 --> 0:17:57.600
<v Speaker 2>now that I'm almost almost forty, I think about all

0:17:57.720 --> 0:18:00.200
<v Speaker 2>the places. You know, you don't have this regret as

0:18:00.200 --> 0:18:03.280
<v Speaker 2>you went to a neat place to go to college.

0:18:03.560 --> 0:18:05.960
<v Speaker 2>And I love Illinois. I'm not you would die.

0:18:07.119 --> 0:18:10.560
<v Speaker 1>Illinois is awesome. Champagne or Banna is a wonderful college town.

0:18:11.359 --> 0:18:12.480
<v Speaker 2>What are you talking about?

0:18:13.280 --> 0:18:16.679
<v Speaker 1>Really? I don't think that that was that was my

0:18:16.800 --> 0:18:17.520
<v Speaker 1>perception of it.

0:18:18.680 --> 0:18:23.320
<v Speaker 2>No, No, it's Central Illinois. I like Swani's like an

0:18:23.359 --> 0:18:26.480
<v Speaker 2>inspiring place. It's like up in the mountains. It's beautiful.

0:18:26.560 --> 0:18:29.399
<v Speaker 1>It's totally different. Like that's a university.

0:18:29.760 --> 0:18:33.160
<v Speaker 2>I see these campuses of other campuses. Is like, why

0:18:33.160 --> 0:18:36.919
<v Speaker 2>did I spend five years of my life in Champagne.

0:18:38.600 --> 0:18:40.920
<v Speaker 1>I honestly think that's a pretty cool college town.

0:18:41.400 --> 0:18:43.200
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I saved a lot of money. I didn't

0:18:43.200 --> 0:18:45.600
<v Speaker 2>spend any five years of my life in Champagne.

0:18:45.640 --> 0:18:48.800
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, yeah, so that's a that's a big deal. Well,

0:18:48.840 --> 0:18:51.040
<v Speaker 1>if you want to see a cool college campus, Williams,

0:18:51.640 --> 0:18:55.639
<v Speaker 1>which is where Taconic, what Teconic is connected to, is

0:18:55.960 --> 0:18:58.560
<v Speaker 1>one of the one of the coolest college campuses out there.

0:18:58.840 --> 0:19:00.840
<v Speaker 2>If you could do it over where would you go

0:19:00.880 --> 0:19:01.399
<v Speaker 2>to college?

0:19:01.880 --> 0:19:03.160
<v Speaker 1>I'd go to the same place.

0:19:03.520 --> 0:19:08.040
<v Speaker 2>Okay, that's amazing. Yeah, definitely, See this is impossible. You

0:19:08.080 --> 0:19:10.760
<v Speaker 2>do this and then your entire life would change if

0:19:10.760 --> 0:19:13.600
<v Speaker 2>you If you did it over right, I would be

0:19:13.680 --> 0:19:14.080
<v Speaker 2>doing this.

0:19:14.640 --> 0:19:18.280
<v Speaker 1>I'm not sure, Yeah, I'm not I'm not sure what

0:19:18.480 --> 0:19:20.920
<v Speaker 1>other choice I would have made. I don't talk about

0:19:20.960 --> 0:19:23.960
<v Speaker 1>it on the podcast much, but I went to Yale

0:19:24.000 --> 0:19:28.760
<v Speaker 1>College for for my undergraduate and I don't introduce this

0:19:28.840 --> 0:19:31.720
<v Speaker 1>information much to people because they start to think I'm

0:19:31.720 --> 0:19:35.560
<v Speaker 1>a certain kind of person. But uh, but I loved

0:19:35.720 --> 0:19:39.960
<v Speaker 1>my college experience, loved that, you know, four years that

0:19:40.000 --> 0:19:43.919
<v Speaker 1>I spent, and I wouldn't trade it for anything. I

0:19:43.960 --> 0:19:44.440
<v Speaker 1>don't think.

0:19:45.400 --> 0:19:51.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I gotta ask this. This is off topic. We've

0:19:51.600 --> 0:19:53.160
<v Speaker 2>we've served off topic here.

0:19:53.920 --> 0:19:55.040
<v Speaker 1>We definitely have.

0:19:56.760 --> 0:20:03.840
<v Speaker 2>What How do IVY leaguers feel about the term public

0:20:03.920 --> 0:20:10.600
<v Speaker 2>ivy because Illinois is the public IVY, but it.

0:20:10.880 --> 0:20:13.679
<v Speaker 1>Sort of seems like what has been deemed a public

0:20:13.680 --> 0:20:19.159
<v Speaker 1>ivy Illinois University of Illinois. I believe that it's a

0:20:19.160 --> 0:20:21.880
<v Speaker 1>great university, but I think it's maybe a little bit

0:20:22.400 --> 0:20:25.560
<v Speaker 1>Isn't it a little bit insulting? Isn't it? Like? I

0:20:25.600 --> 0:20:28.920
<v Speaker 1>don't know, why does the University of Illinois need to

0:20:28.920 --> 0:20:30.000
<v Speaker 1>compare itself to anything?

0:20:31.440 --> 0:20:33.679
<v Speaker 2>Well, that's what we do when we're just a humble

0:20:33.760 --> 0:20:34.919
<v Speaker 2>Midwest state school.

0:20:35.400 --> 0:20:37.440
<v Speaker 1>I think it's sort of like poor Man's Pebble.

0:20:37.119 --> 0:20:42.080
<v Speaker 2>Beach Pacific Grove, right.

0:20:42.359 --> 0:20:45.960
<v Speaker 1>Whereas I think that Pacific Grove is, you know, wonderful

0:20:46.000 --> 0:20:47.520
<v Speaker 1>in its own right and in a lot of ways

0:20:47.520 --> 0:20:49.920
<v Speaker 1>better than Pebble Beach. I don't know that that's sort

0:20:49.960 --> 0:20:53.919
<v Speaker 1>of a harsh take, but uh yeah, I feel completely

0:20:54.480 --> 0:20:58.880
<v Speaker 1>fine about whatever people want to call their universities. I mean,

0:20:58.920 --> 0:21:03.560
<v Speaker 1>I think, having had the experience of going to one

0:21:03.600 --> 0:21:06.760
<v Speaker 1>of these colleges, I know that there are no great

0:21:06.920 --> 0:21:10.720
<v Speaker 1>mysteries about the education that happens there. It's just as

0:21:10.720 --> 0:21:14.320
<v Speaker 1>good and just as bad as the education that happens

0:21:14.359 --> 0:21:18.560
<v Speaker 1>everywhere else. There's no magical thing that occurs at these places.

0:21:19.119 --> 0:21:24.720
<v Speaker 1>And so yeah, I'm completely fine with somebody calling themselves

0:21:25.040 --> 0:21:25.760
<v Speaker 1>a public.

0:21:25.480 --> 0:21:29.240
<v Speaker 2>Ivy back to colleges. Of course, that I may never see,

0:21:29.240 --> 0:21:31.439
<v Speaker 2>that I really do actually want to see is the

0:21:31.520 --> 0:21:34.880
<v Speaker 2>Naval Academy, which Andrew Green did work at. Oh Will.

0:21:35.400 --> 0:21:42.440
<v Speaker 1>That's a good shot a ton of great cool college courses.

0:21:43.520 --> 0:21:47.400
<v Speaker 2>I think there's also probably an interesting if you dove

0:21:47.480 --> 0:21:51.720
<v Speaker 2>into the military based courses, there might be a couple

0:21:52.040 --> 0:21:52.919
<v Speaker 2>interesting ones.

0:21:54.680 --> 0:21:57.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I'm sure I think there's a cool one at

0:21:57.760 --> 0:21:59.800
<v Speaker 1>West Point, but I'm not quite sure what it is.

0:22:00.320 --> 0:22:02.679
<v Speaker 1>You know. The one that also came to mind for

0:22:02.760 --> 0:22:06.120
<v Speaker 1>me is the Hotchkiss Course. This is not a college.

0:22:06.520 --> 0:22:10.320
<v Speaker 1>This is a private boarding school and in New England,

0:22:10.440 --> 0:22:13.080
<v Speaker 1>and it has it has a rainer course that really

0:22:13.119 --> 0:22:15.800
<v Speaker 1>needs to be brought back to life.

0:22:17.760 --> 0:22:20.800
<v Speaker 2>That's uh. There's this other place in New Hampshire called

0:22:20.880 --> 0:22:24.720
<v Speaker 2>Grand Leiden. It's like a neighborhood course. Have you heard

0:22:24.720 --> 0:22:27.600
<v Speaker 2>of this. It's a little off you never heard of

0:22:27.640 --> 0:22:31.639
<v Speaker 2>Grand Leiden. No, I might be mispronouncing it. It's like

0:22:31.760 --> 0:22:36.280
<v Speaker 2>in a neighborhood, but it's not a private club. But

0:22:36.320 --> 0:22:39.240
<v Speaker 2>it's just for people that live in the neighborhood, I believe.

0:22:40.040 --> 0:22:43.679
<v Speaker 2>And it's like super scruffy, but like some of the

0:22:43.680 --> 0:22:47.600
<v Speaker 2>most that I've seen some pictures, and there are some

0:22:47.640 --> 0:22:51.800
<v Speaker 2>of the craziest Walter Travis Greens I've seen, right, And

0:22:51.800 --> 0:22:54.000
<v Speaker 2>it's just like sitting in this neighborhood. It's like a

0:22:54.040 --> 0:22:58.720
<v Speaker 2>private neighborhood course. Awesome, and it like, I mean, it's

0:22:58.800 --> 0:22:59.800
<v Speaker 2>barely maintained.

0:23:00.720 --> 0:23:03.120
<v Speaker 1>I don't think I've ever heard that before. All right,

0:23:03.640 --> 0:23:06.280
<v Speaker 1>I'm let's move on to a new topic here. We

0:23:06.320 --> 0:23:09.080
<v Speaker 1>could talk about college courses, it seems like in college

0:23:09.119 --> 0:23:13.840
<v Speaker 1>life for another hour and a half, but let's let's

0:23:13.880 --> 0:23:17.320
<v Speaker 1>take a little bit of a turn here and talk

0:23:17.400 --> 0:23:21.439
<v Speaker 1>about the best bang for your buck golf architecture trip.

0:23:22.080 --> 0:23:26.000
<v Speaker 1>This is from Dan Golf's three to five Rounds within decent,

0:23:26.119 --> 0:23:29.560
<v Speaker 1>decent driving distance of each other. Now, we've talked about

0:23:29.800 --> 0:23:33.320
<v Speaker 1>some of these trips pretty extensively, and so we don't

0:23:33.320 --> 0:23:36.520
<v Speaker 1>need to like rehash all of them here. But I'll

0:23:36.560 --> 0:23:40.000
<v Speaker 1>obviously just throw out Grand Rapids right away. Yes, the

0:23:40.359 --> 0:23:43.440
<v Speaker 1>Mike Dereese Trail in Grand Rapids we always always point

0:23:43.480 --> 0:23:45.800
<v Speaker 1>people to. Maine is a good one. We have a

0:23:45.800 --> 0:23:50.119
<v Speaker 1>whole recent podcast about that Ventura County where you can

0:23:50.160 --> 0:23:52.840
<v Speaker 1>go to Rustic Canyon. This is in California, Rustic Canyon,

0:23:53.200 --> 0:23:56.080
<v Speaker 1>Seoul Park. And then you know a couple of kind

0:23:56.119 --> 0:24:00.040
<v Speaker 1>of fun Ventura municipal courses called a Leavis Links and

0:24:00.040 --> 0:24:02.879
<v Speaker 1>and Boinda, Ventura, which don't have the greatest architecture in

0:24:02.920 --> 0:24:04.680
<v Speaker 1>the world, but they have a variety of golf holes,

0:24:04.680 --> 0:24:07.320
<v Speaker 1>they're fun to play, and they're really affordable. I think

0:24:07.359 --> 0:24:08.200
<v Speaker 1>that's a cool one too.

0:24:08.560 --> 0:24:13.000
<v Speaker 2>Nebraska sand Hills, YEP, which we have an entire podcast.

0:24:13.240 --> 0:24:15.800
<v Speaker 1>You can hear more about that from about Matt Rusius

0:24:15.840 --> 0:24:18.160
<v Speaker 1>and Andy Johnson on the Friday Golf podcast.

0:24:18.480 --> 0:24:21.800
<v Speaker 2>What about Maine or what what about Boston?

0:24:22.000 --> 0:24:24.960
<v Speaker 1>So Boston is the other big one that we need

0:24:25.000 --> 0:24:30.280
<v Speaker 1>to let people know about. Franklin Park, George Wright Highland

0:24:30.280 --> 0:24:32.760
<v Speaker 1>Links out on Cape Cod and then go to Old

0:24:32.760 --> 0:24:36.240
<v Speaker 1>Salem Grains in Salem. That is a hell of a trip.

0:24:36.440 --> 0:24:38.640
<v Speaker 1>I'm not sure it like gets much better than that

0:24:39.200 --> 0:24:43.280
<v Speaker 1>in terms of cost and quality.

0:24:44.480 --> 0:24:47.879
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean that one's incredible. I think there's also

0:24:48.920 --> 0:24:51.800
<v Speaker 2>we talked about it a little bit here. It's it

0:24:51.920 --> 0:24:55.560
<v Speaker 2>requires a little bit of driving. But you can do

0:24:55.920 --> 0:25:01.760
<v Speaker 2>this Sawanee Sweetens in Chattanooga. You can go see the course.

0:25:01.840 --> 0:25:06.480
<v Speaker 2>That's the first everybody give. Everybody talks about Tom Doak

0:25:06.560 --> 0:25:10.600
<v Speaker 2>and Bill course. Starting the minimal is a movement. Uh

0:25:11.600 --> 0:25:14.919
<v Speaker 2>Mike Young at the Fields, Oh yeah, built the first

0:25:14.960 --> 0:25:18.000
<v Speaker 2>minimalist golf course. So you can fly into Atlanta. You

0:25:18.040 --> 0:25:20.000
<v Speaker 2>could go down to the fields, or you could go

0:25:20.119 --> 0:25:22.600
<v Speaker 2>up to Swedens. But then you come back down to

0:25:22.640 --> 0:25:25.159
<v Speaker 2>the fields and it's a bit of a haul. But

0:25:25.240 --> 0:25:28.119
<v Speaker 2>then you're driving over and you're playing ach and golf club.

0:25:29.359 --> 0:25:32.080
<v Speaker 2>And I mean, if you get there, you can fly

0:25:32.200 --> 0:25:34.440
<v Speaker 2>in one place, fly out of the other. A lot

0:25:34.440 --> 0:25:36.760
<v Speaker 2>of times I fly into one airport and fly out

0:25:36.760 --> 0:25:39.280
<v Speaker 2>of the other. On trips, you don't always have to

0:25:39.280 --> 0:25:43.240
<v Speaker 2>do round trip. I don't know if I want to

0:25:43.320 --> 0:25:45.720
<v Speaker 2>if I want to put this out into public airwaves.

0:25:45.760 --> 0:25:48.600
<v Speaker 2>But most of the time some rental car companies do not,

0:25:48.920 --> 0:25:50.679
<v Speaker 2>Like if you return it somewhere else, that's not a

0:25:50.680 --> 0:25:51.160
<v Speaker 2>big deal.

0:25:53.840 --> 0:25:55.639
<v Speaker 1>Are you eventually going to get arrested for this?

0:25:56.160 --> 0:25:59.440
<v Speaker 2>No, No, they just are. They'll just charge you one way, right,

0:25:59.720 --> 0:26:03.800
<v Speaker 2>some times it's sometimes you get jammed. But on that,

0:26:04.040 --> 0:26:08.600
<v Speaker 2>like you that's four really good golf courses you could

0:26:08.680 --> 0:26:12.000
<v Speaker 2>throw in, like old Takoa Farms is in that area,

0:26:13.320 --> 0:26:16.440
<v Speaker 2>which could be another one you hit. And then obviously

0:26:17.000 --> 0:26:21.960
<v Speaker 2>there are some ways to garner access at places, especially

0:26:21.960 --> 0:26:24.280
<v Speaker 2>like right now, Like I know, like Broomsedge has some

0:26:24.480 --> 0:26:27.560
<v Speaker 2>like times that you can get if you want to

0:26:27.600 --> 0:26:32.040
<v Speaker 2>go see that that's in in the Camden area of

0:26:32.359 --> 0:26:35.840
<v Speaker 2>South Carolina. So that one requires a little bit more driving,

0:26:36.560 --> 0:26:38.480
<v Speaker 2>but you know it's pretty neat.

0:26:39.440 --> 0:26:42.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, that's I mean a lot of amazing golf courses.

0:26:42.960 --> 0:26:46.480
<v Speaker 1>Maybe not always bang for your buck, you know, strictly

0:26:46.520 --> 0:26:51.440
<v Speaker 1>define but the Fields for sure is bang for your buck.

0:26:51.520 --> 0:26:55.600
<v Speaker 2>Sawani's bang for your buck, and and Aiken is like

0:26:55.800 --> 0:27:01.000
<v Speaker 2>the bank for your buck twenty five dollar. Now I

0:27:01.000 --> 0:27:04.080
<v Speaker 2>gotta find, you know, I like to use like recommend

0:27:04.080 --> 0:27:07.240
<v Speaker 2>a restaurant recommendations. I was talking with someone this week

0:27:07.280 --> 0:27:11.679
<v Speaker 2>about this, and he was like, you know what, the

0:27:11.720 --> 0:27:14.280
<v Speaker 2>way I like my golf courses are the way I

0:27:14.359 --> 0:27:18.360
<v Speaker 2>like my restaurants. I either want to have like the

0:27:18.400 --> 0:27:22.760
<v Speaker 2>best taco from like just a taco stand or the

0:27:22.760 --> 0:27:27.320
<v Speaker 2>best burger from just a burger stand that's like ten bucks.

0:27:28.320 --> 0:27:31.240
<v Speaker 2>Or I want to have and like so the golf

0:27:31.320 --> 0:27:33.760
<v Speaker 2>version of that is like Ach and Golf Club twenty

0:27:33.760 --> 0:27:37.160
<v Speaker 2>five dollars and you're just gonna be like smiling from

0:27:37.240 --> 0:27:40.560
<v Speaker 2>year to year, all day long. Or I want the

0:27:40.680 --> 0:27:45.960
<v Speaker 2>very best. I want the like awesome architecture, great playing surfaces.

0:27:46.400 --> 0:27:48.480
<v Speaker 2>And he's like, I don't want anything in the middle.

0:27:50.960 --> 0:27:51.760
<v Speaker 1>I kind of get that.

0:27:53.040 --> 0:27:56.040
<v Speaker 2>I think I I kind of align, Like I love

0:27:56.200 --> 0:27:58.960
<v Speaker 2>places like Ache and Golf Club. I would play like

0:27:59.080 --> 0:28:04.920
<v Speaker 2>Aching Golf Club over the quintessential high end public golf

0:28:04.920 --> 0:28:10.760
<v Speaker 2>course in City X designed by Regional architect X. For

0:28:10.800 --> 0:28:13.879
<v Speaker 2>the most part, these are we're speaking of generalities here,

0:28:14.200 --> 0:28:16.600
<v Speaker 2>but I do kind of agree with that. Another one

0:28:16.640 --> 0:28:18.840
<v Speaker 2>you could keep going to is you could go play

0:28:18.840 --> 0:28:21.800
<v Speaker 2>the Muni in Charleston. It'll kick your ass if you

0:28:21.800 --> 0:28:23.800
<v Speaker 2>can you can break part at the media.

0:28:24.000 --> 0:28:25.760
<v Speaker 1>Not an easy golf course by.

0:28:25.560 --> 0:28:31.639
<v Speaker 2>All means you it's gonna test your precision in short game. There.

0:28:32.240 --> 0:28:35.479
<v Speaker 1>All right, I'm gonna throw another topic at you, and

0:28:35.520 --> 0:28:38.000
<v Speaker 1>I'm gonna kind of swerve on it. We got like

0:28:38.200 --> 0:28:40.840
<v Speaker 1>a few questions in a row about how do you

0:28:40.920 --> 0:28:47.000
<v Speaker 1>get started in appreciating golf architecture without completely overwhelming yourself.

0:28:47.640 --> 0:28:50.080
<v Speaker 1>And the way I wanted to maybe answer this question

0:28:50.160 --> 0:28:53.800
<v Speaker 1>with you is by asking you about how you how

0:28:53.800 --> 0:28:57.800
<v Speaker 1>you got started. Maybe this would help people to you know,

0:28:57.920 --> 0:29:02.360
<v Speaker 1>kind of no more about how you got into it,

0:29:02.960 --> 0:29:05.680
<v Speaker 1>and maybe they could do something similar.

0:29:08.720 --> 0:29:12.880
<v Speaker 2>When I think about it, I caddied, Yeah, I think

0:29:12.880 --> 0:29:16.239
<v Speaker 2>that was like how I got into it was like

0:29:16.280 --> 0:29:20.000
<v Speaker 2>a means of wanting to be good at caddying and

0:29:20.320 --> 0:29:27.280
<v Speaker 2>understanding the way where the way different players had to

0:29:27.320 --> 0:29:35.160
<v Speaker 2>play a golf course to maximize their talent. Like I

0:29:35.280 --> 0:29:41.040
<v Speaker 2>used to, you know, like I worked Tuesday afternoons at

0:29:41.160 --> 0:29:44.800
<v Speaker 2>the at the club that I caddied or caddied, I

0:29:44.840 --> 0:29:49.400
<v Speaker 2>worked backroom on Tuesday afternoons and I carried every Tuesday

0:29:49.440 --> 0:29:54.280
<v Speaker 2>morning and Tuesday morning was ladies Day, and it was

0:29:54.360 --> 0:29:57.400
<v Speaker 2>the most I think it probably had the biggest impact

0:29:57.480 --> 0:30:01.719
<v Speaker 2>on me being into golf architecture because if you caddy.

0:30:01.760 --> 0:30:07.800
<v Speaker 2>For lower trajectory players, you have to understand how to

0:30:07.920 --> 0:30:12.320
<v Speaker 2>use angles, and you have to understand the give and

0:30:12.400 --> 0:30:15.760
<v Speaker 2>takes of hitting it here or hearing it there, and

0:30:15.800 --> 0:30:20.239
<v Speaker 2>then being shorter hitters makes them much more precise, like

0:30:20.280 --> 0:30:23.239
<v Speaker 2>the ability. I always used to say to my mom, like,

0:30:23.280 --> 0:30:26.080
<v Speaker 2>you don't have to aim fifty yards away from bunkers,

0:30:26.120 --> 0:30:28.600
<v Speaker 2>Like you're not going to hit it in that thing,

0:30:29.080 --> 0:30:33.240
<v Speaker 2>you know, So like understanding how to get around a

0:30:33.240 --> 0:30:35.880
<v Speaker 2>golf course, I think is like the first the easiest

0:30:35.920 --> 0:30:41.280
<v Speaker 2>thing to understand is looking at a hole and looking

0:30:41.320 --> 0:30:44.200
<v Speaker 2>at the bunkers and look at and then getting on

0:30:44.240 --> 0:30:49.880
<v Speaker 2>the green and feeling the green and understanding why bunkers

0:30:49.920 --> 0:30:53.640
<v Speaker 2>are certain places and how they influence like where you

0:30:53.720 --> 0:30:57.720
<v Speaker 2>might want to be. I think that's the easiest way,

0:30:58.320 --> 0:31:00.120
<v Speaker 2>and then you can dive into like read.

0:31:01.240 --> 0:31:04.440
<v Speaker 1>Yes, right, most people would want to start with the

0:31:04.960 --> 0:31:08.880
<v Speaker 1>on the ground physical knowledge of how golf courses work.

0:31:09.600 --> 0:31:12.600
<v Speaker 1>For good players, this can be complicated, like you were

0:31:12.640 --> 0:31:16.440
<v Speaker 1>introduced to it through watching different kinds of players play

0:31:16.520 --> 0:31:18.320
<v Speaker 1>the game. Because you were a good player, you would

0:31:18.360 --> 0:31:21.320
<v Speaker 1>have played a golf course a certain way, but then

0:31:21.360 --> 0:31:24.440
<v Speaker 1>you saw other people who are very different playing the

0:31:24.440 --> 0:31:26.880
<v Speaker 1>golf course in a completely different way, and that starts

0:31:26.880 --> 0:31:30.800
<v Speaker 1>to give you an appreciation of what good golf architecture

0:31:30.880 --> 0:31:31.320
<v Speaker 1>can do.

0:31:32.800 --> 0:31:36.480
<v Speaker 2>I had a regular loop on Ladies' Day, and it

0:31:36.560 --> 0:31:43.600
<v Speaker 2>was incredible to see how you could improve someone's golf

0:31:43.640 --> 0:31:47.400
<v Speaker 2>game just by getting them around a golf course. It

0:31:47.440 --> 0:31:50.800
<v Speaker 2>was super power. It was super interesting because like it

0:31:50.840 --> 0:31:54.960
<v Speaker 2>was about like just like laying up to certain areas, like, hey,

0:31:55.640 --> 0:32:00.400
<v Speaker 2>there's a fronting bunker the course. Nowood Club has really

0:32:00.440 --> 0:32:05.680
<v Speaker 2>deep bunkers Charles Allison Charles Allison course and tilted greens,

0:32:06.200 --> 0:32:10.480
<v Speaker 2>like pretty severely tilted greens. So a lot of it

0:32:10.600 --> 0:32:14.400
<v Speaker 2>was just like, hey, I know you can hit it

0:32:14.640 --> 0:32:17.320
<v Speaker 2>on the green, but you can't hold the green. It's

0:32:17.400 --> 0:32:20.400
<v Speaker 2>elevated into the air and you have to carry over

0:32:20.480 --> 0:32:24.000
<v Speaker 2>this bunker. Let's just like lay it over here, short

0:32:24.080 --> 0:32:27.440
<v Speaker 2>left and chip up and get out of here. Like

0:32:27.600 --> 0:32:30.560
<v Speaker 2>just understanding that stuff, like if you're not in position,

0:32:31.000 --> 0:32:34.520
<v Speaker 2>get back into position. I think that's like I think

0:32:34.560 --> 0:32:37.040
<v Speaker 2>that's the stuff that like people don't think about. With

0:32:37.160 --> 0:32:41.400
<v Speaker 2>the understanding of golf architecture, that helps every player, Like

0:32:41.560 --> 0:32:46.520
<v Speaker 2>every single player can be so much better if you

0:32:46.680 --> 0:32:51.160
<v Speaker 2>just understand what you're looking at and it helps you.

0:32:51.440 --> 0:32:54.360
<v Speaker 2>Like I think like this is where the analytics community

0:32:54.920 --> 0:32:59.040
<v Speaker 2>will say, oh, golf architecture, Understanding golf architecture doesn't matter. Oh,

0:32:59.080 --> 0:33:01.680
<v Speaker 2>it absolutely does when it comes to like seeing a

0:33:01.720 --> 0:33:04.920
<v Speaker 2>golf course and understanding where to leave shots when you're

0:33:05.000 --> 0:33:08.520
<v Speaker 2>out of position, more so than like getting it up

0:33:08.560 --> 0:33:12.640
<v Speaker 2>the left side to get an angle. You know, that's

0:33:13.320 --> 0:33:17.479
<v Speaker 2>you know fractions better than if you're in the on

0:33:17.560 --> 0:33:20.040
<v Speaker 2>the right, the other side of the fair away. Where

0:33:20.080 --> 0:33:23.920
<v Speaker 2>you save the most shots without a doubt, is understanding

0:33:24.360 --> 0:33:27.720
<v Speaker 2>where to leave balls and under and that there are

0:33:27.800 --> 0:33:30.200
<v Speaker 2>slopes that if you leave in the right spot, you

0:33:30.240 --> 0:33:33.000
<v Speaker 2>can get yourself to where you're chipping back into a

0:33:33.040 --> 0:33:37.720
<v Speaker 2>bowl or you're not not on the wrong side of

0:33:37.760 --> 0:33:41.760
<v Speaker 2>a really severe contour, even though it's like wide open

0:33:41.800 --> 0:33:45.600
<v Speaker 2>green space and short grass. Like just an understanding of

0:33:45.640 --> 0:33:47.960
<v Speaker 2>what you're looking at and what the architect's trying to

0:33:48.000 --> 0:33:50.480
<v Speaker 2>do to you, you know, where they're trying to get

0:33:50.480 --> 0:33:52.920
<v Speaker 2>you to hit it because it looks nice and it

0:33:53.000 --> 0:33:54.840
<v Speaker 2>might look really nice on Google Earth.

0:33:56.720 --> 0:33:59.160
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I agree with that. I find it frustrating when

0:33:59.160 --> 0:34:01.840
<v Speaker 1>people assert that it doesn't help you in any way

0:34:02.600 --> 0:34:07.400
<v Speaker 1>because clearly a lot of great players. The greatest players

0:34:07.920 --> 0:34:13.200
<v Speaker 1>have had a very sharp understanding of golf architecture, and

0:34:13.480 --> 0:34:16.759
<v Speaker 1>I think that it can it can help you be

0:34:17.040 --> 0:34:19.000
<v Speaker 1>more aware out there. That's not to say that every

0:34:19.040 --> 0:34:25.479
<v Speaker 1>great player understands architecture intellectually, but I think most great

0:34:25.480 --> 0:34:29.399
<v Speaker 1>players have at least an instinctive grasp of it. Right.

0:34:30.280 --> 0:34:34.000
<v Speaker 2>I think this is like an interesting example in you know,

0:34:34.080 --> 0:34:37.320
<v Speaker 2>some day maybe I'll ask him this at an event.

0:34:38.000 --> 0:34:43.160
<v Speaker 2>But I do think that like if you look at Rory,

0:34:43.280 --> 0:34:47.000
<v Speaker 2>he I think he he got it, really started to

0:34:47.000 --> 0:34:52.160
<v Speaker 2>get into golf architecture in like twenty nineteen ish, but

0:34:52.440 --> 0:34:56.839
<v Speaker 2>his performance at like majors that he used to you know,

0:34:56.920 --> 0:34:58.799
<v Speaker 2>people said he used to not be able to play

0:34:58.840 --> 0:35:02.919
<v Speaker 2>firm courses, you know, And if you start to look

0:35:02.960 --> 0:35:06.480
<v Speaker 2>at how he plays some of these golf courses, like

0:35:06.520 --> 0:35:09.439
<v Speaker 2>he has he understands the architecture a little bit more.

0:35:10.520 --> 0:35:14.120
<v Speaker 2>And it's not necessarily about like whether he's hating driver

0:35:14.280 --> 0:35:16.759
<v Speaker 2>or three iron. But if you watch like a lot

0:35:16.760 --> 0:35:19.440
<v Speaker 2>of times, like where he leaves or like his shots

0:35:19.480 --> 0:35:23.640
<v Speaker 2>around the green, like he's always seemingly in these positions

0:35:23.680 --> 0:35:26.520
<v Speaker 2>where on like you know, if you think back to

0:35:27.120 --> 0:35:31.880
<v Speaker 2>lacc or Pinehurst number two, he was always in advantageous

0:35:31.920 --> 0:35:36.480
<v Speaker 2>places to chip or pitch from versus you don't. I

0:35:36.520 --> 0:35:38.839
<v Speaker 2>don't know. I think it's I think it's just a

0:35:38.880 --> 0:35:42.880
<v Speaker 2>fascinating thing. But I do think he's gotten more consistent

0:35:43.120 --> 0:35:48.880
<v Speaker 2>at at majors since he's kind of dove into golf architecture,

0:35:48.960 --> 0:35:52.239
<v Speaker 2>and I don't I have to ask him. He had

0:35:52.280 --> 0:35:54.799
<v Speaker 2>to answer to one question at Pinehurst that was like,

0:35:55.200 --> 0:35:58.080
<v Speaker 2>it's all about the arc, Like it's all about setting

0:35:58.160 --> 0:36:01.799
<v Speaker 2>up you know. I can't remember exactly what it was.

0:36:01.840 --> 0:36:04.880
<v Speaker 2>It was after the second round, but it's, you know,

0:36:05.040 --> 0:36:10.960
<v Speaker 2>I think that you're totally right, like the highs there

0:36:11.040 --> 0:36:13.880
<v Speaker 2>in like it's just understanding where to leave it in

0:36:14.800 --> 0:36:17.759
<v Speaker 2>the contours. So much about that and what you can

0:36:17.880 --> 0:36:19.839
<v Speaker 2>use and what you can't use, what you can use,

0:36:19.880 --> 0:36:20.799
<v Speaker 2>and what's going to hurt you.

0:36:22.520 --> 0:36:25.359
<v Speaker 1>Well, I'll tell you how I got into it, and

0:36:25.680 --> 0:36:31.719
<v Speaker 1>it's basically from the opposite direction compared to the way

0:36:31.719 --> 0:36:34.640
<v Speaker 1>you got into it. I got into it by reading,

0:36:35.640 --> 0:36:39.799
<v Speaker 1>and the book that introduced me to the idea of

0:36:40.080 --> 0:36:44.040
<v Speaker 1>golf course design was The World Atlas of Golf. My

0:36:44.160 --> 0:36:47.719
<v Speaker 1>dad just brought it home one day, thought I would

0:36:47.719 --> 0:36:51.360
<v Speaker 1>find it interesting, and it's this wonderful book with great

0:36:51.400 --> 0:36:57.920
<v Speaker 1>writing from great golf writers, but also extraordinary illustrations of

0:36:57.960 --> 0:37:00.239
<v Speaker 1>some of the best courses in the world. And I

0:37:00.360 --> 0:37:04.160
<v Speaker 1>just became obsessed with this book, and that's how my

0:37:04.239 --> 0:37:07.120
<v Speaker 1>interest started, and I went from there to other kinds

0:37:07.120 --> 0:37:09.960
<v Speaker 1>of golf architecture books. I remember when Spirit of Saint

0:37:10.000 --> 0:37:13.000
<v Speaker 1>Andrews was republished and how that was kind of exciting, right,

0:37:13.080 --> 0:37:15.719
<v Speaker 1>this is the lost Alistair McKenzie book. Turns out it

0:37:15.760 --> 0:37:20.319
<v Speaker 1>wasn't really that lost, but whatever. I read that and

0:37:20.520 --> 0:37:22.960
<v Speaker 1>I started getting into it that way. I started reading

0:37:23.000 --> 0:37:26.880
<v Speaker 1>some things online when I was younger, and that's how

0:37:27.000 --> 0:37:31.239
<v Speaker 1>I created a kind of knowledge base about golf architecture.

0:37:31.800 --> 0:37:34.000
<v Speaker 1>And then what I had to do after that was

0:37:34.120 --> 0:37:38.640
<v Speaker 1>try to apply it to what was on the ground

0:37:38.880 --> 0:37:43.160
<v Speaker 1>on golf courses because I didn't play that many well

0:37:43.200 --> 0:37:45.720
<v Speaker 1>designed golf courses when I was a kid. I played

0:37:45.760 --> 0:37:49.160
<v Speaker 1>basically the public courses in the town where I grew up.

0:37:50.080 --> 0:37:56.000
<v Speaker 1>But I found ways to get onto the best regarded

0:37:56.080 --> 0:37:59.759
<v Speaker 1>courses that I had access to in Santa Barbara where

0:37:59.760 --> 0:38:02.880
<v Speaker 1>I grew up. That was the Valley Club of Monecito.

0:38:03.040 --> 0:38:04.960
<v Speaker 1>I had no means of getting on that course. But

0:38:05.400 --> 0:38:08.560
<v Speaker 1>for one summer I joined the Santa Barbara Junior Golf Tour,

0:38:09.360 --> 0:38:11.359
<v Speaker 1>and one of the stops on the Santa Barbara Junior

0:38:11.360 --> 0:38:14.239
<v Speaker 1>Golf Tour, just basically the local junior league was the

0:38:14.320 --> 0:38:18.200
<v Speaker 1>Valley Club of Montecito, and that's why I joined that

0:38:18.239 --> 0:38:20.279
<v Speaker 1>little league for that one summer. So I got to

0:38:20.280 --> 0:38:24.040
<v Speaker 1>play that golf course and it was really exciting. And

0:38:24.080 --> 0:38:26.359
<v Speaker 1>then my dad and I went up and played Pas

0:38:26.520 --> 0:38:29.440
<v Speaker 1>Tiempo and Santa Cruz one year. That was sort of

0:38:29.440 --> 0:38:33.680
<v Speaker 1>a special trip and a wonderful experience, and so that's

0:38:33.800 --> 0:38:37.600
<v Speaker 1>kind of my path to it. I started with reading

0:38:38.239 --> 0:38:41.120
<v Speaker 1>and then I went to just trying to find access

0:38:41.800 --> 0:38:45.239
<v Speaker 1>to the best courses that I could, and it wasn't

0:38:45.320 --> 0:38:48.359
<v Speaker 1>much access, but I think I was able to make

0:38:48.360 --> 0:38:51.240
<v Speaker 1>the most of it because of some of the reading

0:38:51.440 --> 0:38:57.360
<v Speaker 1>and knowledge I had acquired through the World Atlas of

0:38:57.400 --> 0:39:01.400
<v Speaker 1>Golf and other books. And so there are many ways

0:39:01.400 --> 0:39:05.560
<v Speaker 1>into it, but honestly, like for somebody who's just starting

0:39:05.560 --> 0:39:08.720
<v Speaker 1>out and just getting interested in it, I would recommend

0:39:08.719 --> 0:39:10.880
<v Speaker 1>the World Atlas of Golf. I think it's a great

0:39:10.960 --> 0:39:14.680
<v Speaker 1>way of orienting yourself. Whether you're forty years old or

0:39:14.840 --> 0:39:17.080
<v Speaker 1>ten years old. You know that that book has appeal

0:39:17.600 --> 0:39:18.799
<v Speaker 1>across ages.

0:39:18.960 --> 0:39:22.200
<v Speaker 2>So readily available, too readily available.

0:39:22.320 --> 0:39:24.359
<v Speaker 1>You know, the new editions, A lot of people don't

0:39:24.360 --> 0:39:26.640
<v Speaker 1>love the new editions. I think the new editions are fine,

0:39:27.600 --> 0:39:32.240
<v Speaker 1>but the old additions with the green cover, those ones

0:39:32.280 --> 0:39:35.480
<v Speaker 1>have the really great illustrations in them, and also writing

0:39:35.520 --> 0:39:37.880
<v Speaker 1>by pat Ward Thomas and Herbert Warren Wynd and some

0:39:38.000 --> 0:39:42.400
<v Speaker 1>true heavy hitters of golf literature, so those ones are

0:39:42.400 --> 0:39:45.719
<v Speaker 1>pretty special. But I think any edition will really do.

0:39:45.880 --> 0:39:48.200
<v Speaker 1>And you can find the old editions very affordably on

0:39:48.239 --> 0:39:51.920
<v Speaker 1>Amazon through the used channels on there and everything.

0:40:00.040 --> 0:40:02.640
<v Speaker 2>Let's take a quick break and then we'll get back

0:40:02.680 --> 0:40:05.520
<v Speaker 2>to the mail bag and talk about Stripe. This is

0:40:05.640 --> 0:40:10.560
<v Speaker 2>a partnership that I am really excited about. Stripe has

0:40:10.640 --> 0:40:13.480
<v Speaker 2>been part of our business since really the inception of

0:40:13.520 --> 0:40:16.280
<v Speaker 2>the business. As soon as we decided to start taking

0:40:16.320 --> 0:40:20.640
<v Speaker 2>payments online, we started using Stripe. They made it seamless

0:40:20.840 --> 0:40:24.720
<v Speaker 2>for me to create a way for people to pay

0:40:25.040 --> 0:40:27.720
<v Speaker 2>online and have it go right into my bank account.

0:40:27.760 --> 0:40:32.920
<v Speaker 2>It was really really a something that was super easy,

0:40:33.320 --> 0:40:35.480
<v Speaker 2>and without it being really easy, it would have been

0:40:35.560 --> 0:40:39.280
<v Speaker 2>probably prolonged. Me getting an online store up for a while.

0:40:40.800 --> 0:40:45.200
<v Speaker 2>Stripe works with businesses as small as we were seven

0:40:45.320 --> 0:40:48.880
<v Speaker 2>eight years ago, but they also work with giant companies

0:40:49.320 --> 0:40:56.360
<v Speaker 2>such as Alaska Airlines, Hertz, Toyota, WordPress, Zoom, Door, Dash, BMW,

0:40:57.480 --> 0:41:00.240
<v Speaker 2>a lot of these companies that have tons and tons

0:41:00.239 --> 0:41:05.080
<v Speaker 2>of transactions every day. You know, Stripe in fact powers

0:41:05.320 --> 0:41:10.080
<v Speaker 2>one percent of the global GDP is powered by Stripe.

0:41:10.320 --> 0:41:13.480
<v Speaker 2>So the way they work is they work in a

0:41:13.560 --> 0:41:15.560
<v Speaker 2>variety of ways. You know, you can just do your

0:41:15.600 --> 0:41:18.719
<v Speaker 2>standard checkout. One of the things that's nice about their

0:41:18.800 --> 0:41:24.120
<v Speaker 2>checkout is they accept a really wide range of payment options,

0:41:24.400 --> 0:41:27.319
<v Speaker 2>and it's super important to do that so people don't

0:41:27.320 --> 0:41:31.440
<v Speaker 2>abandon their carts. And they also have a billing product

0:41:31.920 --> 0:41:36.360
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0:41:36.440 --> 0:41:41.120
<v Speaker 2>have usage based billing, and they work with over three

0:41:41.200 --> 0:41:45.080
<v Speaker 2>hundred thousand businesses with that billing product. If you want

0:41:45.080 --> 0:41:48.120
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0:41:48.600 --> 0:42:01.480
<v Speaker 2>check out stripe dot com. Hey Garrett, miss Mischiefan.

0:42:02.280 --> 0:42:05.240
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I had a problem with that screening too.

0:42:05.880 --> 0:42:10.719
<v Speaker 2>What do you think Bandon should do about the Poe invasion?

0:42:11.120 --> 0:42:12.280
<v Speaker 2>The answer could be nothing.

0:42:12.760 --> 0:42:15.920
<v Speaker 1>This is an impossible question to answer. It's such a

0:42:15.960 --> 0:42:20.440
<v Speaker 1>hard situation for context in case people don't know. Basically,

0:42:21.239 --> 0:42:23.920
<v Speaker 1>a lot of the courses that Bandon Dunes are currently

0:42:24.000 --> 0:42:28.799
<v Speaker 1>undergoing a transition from being maybe mostly fescue or in

0:42:28.840 --> 0:42:33.040
<v Speaker 1>some cases partly fescue originally different blends.

0:42:33.080 --> 0:42:35.720
<v Speaker 2>They've grasped things differently over time.

0:42:36.160 --> 0:42:38.399
<v Speaker 1>They've gone to like more and more fescue over time.

0:42:39.280 --> 0:42:43.799
<v Speaker 1>But on the greens especially, there's just a natural transition

0:42:44.719 --> 0:42:48.560
<v Speaker 1>to poa turf. And anybody who's on the West Coast

0:42:49.000 --> 0:42:53.480
<v Speaker 1>especially knows about poa greens. They don't have a great reputation,

0:42:53.680 --> 0:42:57.400
<v Speaker 1>you know that. Think of Pebble Beach's greens on a

0:42:57.480 --> 0:42:59.560
<v Speaker 1>late afternoon at the US Open. They get a little

0:42:59.560 --> 0:43:03.160
<v Speaker 1>bit bumpy, But poet can be a great putting surface.

0:43:03.200 --> 0:43:07.400
<v Speaker 1>It's just different from fescue, and it's not quite at

0:43:07.480 --> 0:43:11.520
<v Speaker 1>Bandon Dune's. The courses just become slower over time. Let's

0:43:11.560 --> 0:43:15.920
<v Speaker 1>bouncy overtime because of this turf transition. But there's basically

0:43:15.960 --> 0:43:16.680
<v Speaker 1>no stopping it.

0:43:17.800 --> 0:43:21.799
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's an extreme, it's an invasive like you're if

0:43:21.880 --> 0:43:24.640
<v Speaker 2>you choose to fight it, you're gonna fight it all

0:43:24.680 --> 0:43:25.120
<v Speaker 2>the time.

0:43:25.560 --> 0:43:27.239
<v Speaker 1>I think they just have to roll with it, right,

0:43:28.520 --> 0:43:30.880
<v Speaker 1>I don't know, are there little things they could do?

0:43:31.080 --> 0:43:35.120
<v Speaker 1>Could could they do like occasional projects, just like regular

0:43:35.280 --> 0:43:39.760
<v Speaker 1>projects year to year close down parts of some courses.

0:43:41.040 --> 0:43:45.919
<v Speaker 2>So I think like it's a it's a I think

0:43:46.000 --> 0:43:48.680
<v Speaker 2>like it's a big question of like what do you

0:43:48.760 --> 0:43:53.399
<v Speaker 2>want the court the courses to be if you want

0:43:53.480 --> 0:43:58.120
<v Speaker 2>them to play in their original lessence. You could think

0:43:58.160 --> 0:44:01.759
<v Speaker 2>of this as a once every It seems like like

0:44:02.120 --> 0:44:05.799
<v Speaker 2>twenty years is kind of the ticking time bomb. Maybe

0:44:05.800 --> 0:44:09.800
<v Speaker 2>it's fifteen years of when when the rubber hit meets

0:44:09.800 --> 0:44:12.759
<v Speaker 2>the road with the poa and you you can't keep

0:44:12.800 --> 0:44:15.640
<v Speaker 2>it out. Just based off of the clock of all

0:44:15.680 --> 0:44:18.319
<v Speaker 2>the courses, I think one of the issues is the

0:44:18.320 --> 0:44:23.800
<v Speaker 2>poe does not hold up to winter well, and that

0:44:24.040 --> 0:44:28.879
<v Speaker 2>then causes problems into your you know more into your

0:44:28.920 --> 0:44:30.080
<v Speaker 2>prime season.

0:44:30.040 --> 0:44:33.720
<v Speaker 1>Well, especially because they play rounds basically year round.

0:44:33.719 --> 0:44:34.800
<v Speaker 2>There exact pact.

0:44:35.280 --> 0:44:37.799
<v Speaker 1>Even when the weather's really bad, even when it's really

0:44:37.840 --> 0:44:40.920
<v Speaker 1>wet out there, people are trampling all over the greens.

0:44:41.160 --> 0:44:43.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think that's the It is like people go

0:44:43.280 --> 0:44:45.879
<v Speaker 2>to Bandon and they're going to play you.

0:44:45.960 --> 0:44:47.520
<v Speaker 1>And they have my expectations.

0:44:48.080 --> 0:44:51.840
<v Speaker 2>Understandably, I played in the worst weather I've ever played

0:44:52.000 --> 0:44:55.400
<v Speaker 2>in my life with you because we're abandon and what

0:44:55.480 --> 0:44:57.600
<v Speaker 2>else were we going to do? We're gonna go out there.

0:44:57.760 --> 0:45:01.280
<v Speaker 1>We're going to play abandoned trails. Yeah, we were basically

0:45:01.320 --> 0:45:02.000
<v Speaker 1>in a monsoon.

0:45:02.400 --> 0:45:07.520
<v Speaker 2>That was insane. The fall. The fall is going like

0:45:07.560 --> 0:45:09.520
<v Speaker 2>one hundred and ten yards off two.

0:45:10.000 --> 0:45:12.480
<v Speaker 1>It was. It was crazy. I mean there was one

0:45:12.520 --> 0:45:14.880
<v Speaker 1>moment during the round when we all just like stopped

0:45:15.360 --> 0:45:16.120
<v Speaker 1>and took shelter.

0:45:16.880 --> 0:45:20.759
<v Speaker 2>We on what is it on? Uh? On eleven?

0:45:21.480 --> 0:45:25.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, after we eleven get one that goes down.

0:45:25.160 --> 0:45:27.920
<v Speaker 2>That's the one that goes down, uh to the to

0:45:28.000 --> 0:45:29.160
<v Speaker 2>the lake.

0:45:29.080 --> 0:45:30.920
<v Speaker 1>Right, yeah, with a little lake by it. And then

0:45:30.960 --> 0:45:31.399
<v Speaker 1>I think I.

0:45:31.400 --> 0:45:35.919
<v Speaker 2>Hit driver threewood three wood. It was into like sheeting grate.

0:45:36.840 --> 0:45:41.560
<v Speaker 1>It was no, yeah, it was. It was pretty wild.

0:45:43.200 --> 0:45:45.200
<v Speaker 2>But anyways, like I think this is like part of

0:45:45.239 --> 0:45:48.200
<v Speaker 2>it is like the winter. It's now a problem because

0:45:48.200 --> 0:45:48.720
<v Speaker 2>of the winter.

0:45:49.400 --> 0:45:51.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, But so if.

0:45:51.640 --> 0:45:53.759
<v Speaker 2>You wanted to fix it, if you wanted to go

0:45:53.880 --> 0:45:59.120
<v Speaker 2>back to fescue, here's the issue. You have to regrasp

0:45:59.320 --> 0:46:02.040
<v Speaker 2>every course, and you have to take the golf course

0:46:02.080 --> 0:46:04.640
<v Speaker 2>out of play, each course out of play for a year.

0:46:05.920 --> 0:46:08.320
<v Speaker 2>And if you take each golf course out of play,

0:46:08.560 --> 0:46:14.960
<v Speaker 2>for a year. You lose your powerful marketing message of

0:46:17.200 --> 0:46:20.320
<v Speaker 2>we are come to abandon dunes and tell us which

0:46:20.360 --> 0:46:22.279
<v Speaker 2>course you think is the best.

0:46:22.280 --> 0:46:25.160
<v Speaker 1>Rank the courses. That's what everybody wants to do. Everybody

0:46:25.160 --> 0:46:27.840
<v Speaker 1>wants to go there and have their ranking of the courses.

0:46:28.400 --> 0:46:32.600
<v Speaker 2>If I were the Cizar abandon, which I'm not, that

0:46:32.640 --> 0:46:36.239
<v Speaker 2>would be Mike Kaiser, I'm not going to be. How

0:46:36.360 --> 0:46:38.879
<v Speaker 2>I would approach this is I would start a plan

0:46:39.239 --> 0:46:42.080
<v Speaker 2>and understand that this is how we're going to maintain

0:46:42.120 --> 0:46:44.720
<v Speaker 2>the golf course. I would want it back to fescue.

0:46:45.640 --> 0:46:50.279
<v Speaker 2>That's my personal opinion. I think it's just like the

0:46:50.440 --> 0:46:53.520
<v Speaker 2>essence of what it is. It's links golf on the coast,

0:46:54.360 --> 0:46:57.320
<v Speaker 2>and it's American links golf on the coast, and the

0:46:57.400 --> 0:46:59.680
<v Speaker 2>fescue is the best surface for that. And what I

0:46:59.719 --> 0:47:03.040
<v Speaker 2>would do is I would start closing one course every

0:47:03.080 --> 0:47:06.920
<v Speaker 2>other year for the next ten years, and I would

0:47:06.920 --> 0:47:09.840
<v Speaker 2>get the greens. And you probably don't even have to

0:47:09.840 --> 0:47:13.080
<v Speaker 2>do it at Sheep Ranch at this point.

0:47:13.840 --> 0:47:14.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah maybe so.

0:47:15.280 --> 0:47:17.560
<v Speaker 2>But like I would just bite the bullet and I

0:47:17.560 --> 0:47:19.960
<v Speaker 2>would start a plan, and we're going to do this,

0:47:20.120 --> 0:47:22.640
<v Speaker 2>and I'm gonna know that I have to take a

0:47:22.719 --> 0:47:28.520
<v Speaker 2>course out for a year every fifteen to twenty years. Yeah,

0:47:29.280 --> 0:47:30.760
<v Speaker 2>and that's just the way if.

0:47:30.640 --> 0:47:34.120
<v Speaker 1>We want just continual cycle. Yes, it's just just hard

0:47:34.160 --> 0:47:34.799
<v Speaker 1>to accept that.

0:47:35.040 --> 0:47:40.000
<v Speaker 2>You know, it's just the ongoing it's an operational cost

0:47:40.280 --> 0:47:44.200
<v Speaker 2>of it. And you know it's too bad because people

0:47:44.480 --> 0:47:47.000
<v Speaker 2>but like if they add the sixth course, it's gonna

0:47:47.040 --> 0:47:49.000
<v Speaker 2>be really hard to play all the courses abandon.

0:47:49.640 --> 0:47:51.600
<v Speaker 1>That's true. You'll have to stay there for.

0:47:52.040 --> 0:47:57.359
<v Speaker 2>In like shorties, shorties, you know, yeah, and preserve like

0:47:57.440 --> 0:47:59.359
<v Speaker 2>there's a lot. It's hard to do that all on

0:47:59.360 --> 0:48:00.640
<v Speaker 2>one trip as it is.

0:48:00.520 --> 0:48:07.120
<v Speaker 1>Now, right, Yeah, Well, it's it's a tough situation. It's inevitable.

0:48:07.560 --> 0:48:09.600
<v Speaker 2>Is similar to the pebble situation.

0:48:09.480 --> 0:48:16.319
<v Speaker 1>It is, right, And and you have kind of similar climates, right,

0:48:16.400 --> 0:48:19.200
<v Speaker 1>not exactly the same. Oregon's is much harsher.

0:48:19.880 --> 0:48:24.520
<v Speaker 2>Are you but are you suggesting that that that that uh,

0:48:25.080 --> 0:48:28.160
<v Speaker 2>Monterey in north is part of the Pacific Northwest?

0:48:31.080 --> 0:48:35.279
<v Speaker 1>Just walked right into that one just walked right into it,

0:48:36.840 --> 0:48:37.239
<v Speaker 1>damn it.

0:48:40.280 --> 0:48:43.080
<v Speaker 2>For those that aren't familiar, I have a long standing

0:48:43.400 --> 0:48:52.880
<v Speaker 2>belief that that uh, particularly just north.

0:48:50.680 --> 0:48:53.799
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, And and he has his own geography of

0:48:53.880 --> 0:48:57.880
<v Speaker 1>the he believes that I don't know what you believe

0:48:57.920 --> 0:49:00.040
<v Speaker 1>that's that it's all Central California.

0:49:01.920 --> 0:49:02.840
<v Speaker 2>And we're all Pacific.

0:49:03.000 --> 0:49:06.480
<v Speaker 1>We're a Central California is part of the Pacific Northwest. Yeah,

0:49:10.040 --> 0:49:11.319
<v Speaker 1>I forgot what I was gonna say.

0:49:12.200 --> 0:49:14.360
<v Speaker 2>Oregons we have similar climates.

0:49:14.560 --> 0:49:17.319
<v Speaker 1>Or Oregon's wet, you know, Monterey can get foggy and

0:49:17.400 --> 0:49:21.200
<v Speaker 1>cold and wet. You know, it's they're not great places

0:49:21.239 --> 0:49:25.480
<v Speaker 1>for avoiding POA. You're just gonna get it right. And

0:49:25.480 --> 0:49:28.759
<v Speaker 1>and so you're fighting against nature. And I guess if

0:49:28.800 --> 0:49:31.680
<v Speaker 1>they want the ideal playing conditions, that's what they have

0:49:31.760 --> 0:49:34.600
<v Speaker 1>to do. They just have to go to war with nature.

0:49:34.680 --> 0:49:37.640
<v Speaker 1>But we're just learning. I guess that fescue doesn't do

0:49:37.880 --> 0:49:43.080
<v Speaker 1>super well in a coastal climate like the southern coast

0:49:43.080 --> 0:49:46.960
<v Speaker 1>of Oregon, Whereas if you go to Gamble Sands or

0:49:47.040 --> 0:49:51.080
<v Speaker 1>Sand Valley, the fescue there is doing amazingly well.

0:49:51.520 --> 0:49:55.520
<v Speaker 2>Right, Sand Valleys, sand Valley's playing might be the best

0:49:55.520 --> 0:49:57.080
<v Speaker 2>playing surfaces in America.

0:49:57.440 --> 0:50:00.600
<v Speaker 1>They're unbelievable, truely unbelievable.

0:50:00.360 --> 0:50:03.840
<v Speaker 2>You know, Like just I do think like a course

0:50:03.880 --> 0:50:08.399
<v Speaker 2>that goes way under the radar. And I was I

0:50:08.440 --> 0:50:11.640
<v Speaker 2>had conversations this week about this like just how intertwined

0:50:12.560 --> 0:50:19.319
<v Speaker 2>maintenance and golf architecture are. The Loop at Forest Students

0:50:19.560 --> 0:50:23.600
<v Speaker 2>does not get nearly enough respect because it's got like

0:50:23.880 --> 0:50:28.640
<v Speaker 2>incredible design, but the playing surfaces are as good as

0:50:28.680 --> 0:50:33.080
<v Speaker 2>you're going to find. It is firm and fast rescue

0:50:33.480 --> 0:50:34.280
<v Speaker 2>like it is.

0:50:34.600 --> 0:50:39.160
<v Speaker 1>Michigan and Kingsley's playing surfaces are well regarded as well,

0:50:39.239 --> 0:50:39.560
<v Speaker 1>you know.

0:50:40.200 --> 0:50:44.640
<v Speaker 2>But like Forest Students, like the Loop, the ball just

0:50:44.880 --> 0:50:48.440
<v Speaker 2>rockets and they have these awesome contours. It's relatively flat

0:50:48.800 --> 0:50:52.400
<v Speaker 2>like that is to me, probably the closest to playing

0:50:52.920 --> 0:50:56.440
<v Speaker 2>in Scotland that you can get in America on like

0:50:56.600 --> 0:51:01.600
<v Speaker 2>really crispy, firm turf. Is is Force Students. I think

0:51:01.680 --> 0:51:04.680
<v Speaker 2>like the Sand Valley's a little bit different golf because

0:51:04.719 --> 0:51:08.360
<v Speaker 2>you get more elevation out there, you know, it's a

0:51:08.360 --> 0:51:12.160
<v Speaker 2>little bit more dramatic golf than your Scotland Scotland golf.

0:51:12.200 --> 0:51:16.960
<v Speaker 2>But like to me, God, yeah, Sand Valley and Forced Students,

0:51:17.080 --> 0:51:19.000
<v Speaker 2>the fescue is amazing.

0:51:19.760 --> 0:51:23.239
<v Speaker 1>Remarkable, And these courses are starting to age a little

0:51:23.280 --> 0:51:26.440
<v Speaker 1>bit and we're seeing how they age, and I think

0:51:26.480 --> 0:51:29.799
<v Speaker 1>it's probably going to start to inform some future decisions

0:51:29.920 --> 0:51:34.200
<v Speaker 1>about where big developers build golf. Courses right, because do

0:51:34.600 --> 0:51:38.400
<v Speaker 1>you really want to build a links like golf course

0:51:38.640 --> 0:51:41.680
<v Speaker 1>in a setting where it's so difficult to have links

0:51:41.760 --> 0:51:43.799
<v Speaker 1>like turf. I think that that's going to be a

0:51:43.800 --> 0:51:47.720
<v Speaker 1>real question that the Kaisers and others have to answer

0:51:47.719 --> 0:51:49.719
<v Speaker 1>in the coming years. How are you going to make

0:51:50.719 --> 0:51:54.560
<v Speaker 1>the turf great fifteen twenty years from now? And that's

0:51:54.560 --> 0:51:57.080
<v Speaker 1>something that we've seen kind of proven out with Sand Valley. Well,

0:51:57.120 --> 0:52:00.839
<v Speaker 1>at least so far. Sand Valley's not that old years old. Yeah,

0:52:00.880 --> 0:52:03.480
<v Speaker 1>so they demand it's much older. We should keep that

0:52:03.520 --> 0:52:06.200
<v Speaker 1>in mind, but it is. It is such a different

0:52:06.239 --> 0:52:09.200
<v Speaker 1>experience and it gives that resort kind of a new status.

0:52:10.040 --> 0:52:15.200
<v Speaker 2>An interesting other turf course in Turfin and great architecture

0:52:15.800 --> 0:52:20.879
<v Speaker 2>that I always think about is Gray Walls. Yeah, and

0:52:20.920 --> 0:52:21.920
<v Speaker 2>they they.

0:52:21.960 --> 0:52:25.280
<v Speaker 1>Have an extreme setting right extreme.

0:52:25.320 --> 0:52:28.319
<v Speaker 2>North and in a ton of car traffic. It's like

0:52:28.360 --> 0:52:30.520
<v Speaker 2>a you can walk the golf course. I walked the

0:52:30.520 --> 0:52:33.560
<v Speaker 2>golf course. I was fine. I didn't I wasn't sore

0:52:33.840 --> 0:52:36.080
<v Speaker 2>or anything. It's a big walk, but you can walk

0:52:36.080 --> 0:52:38.400
<v Speaker 2>the golf course. But they have a ton of car traffic.

0:52:38.880 --> 0:52:42.640
<v Speaker 2>But what they have they have a bluegrass fescue blend

0:52:43.800 --> 0:52:47.719
<v Speaker 2>and all their approaches. So the most important place to

0:52:47.840 --> 0:52:54.279
<v Speaker 2>have fescue to me is in the approaches, because there's

0:52:54.280 --> 0:52:57.839
<v Speaker 2>nothing worse than having like a green that's firm and

0:52:57.880 --> 0:53:02.440
<v Speaker 2>then an approach that doesn't receive a running shot.

0:53:02.640 --> 0:53:05.160
<v Speaker 1>Well, it's like what they do at Rustic Canyon that's

0:53:05.000 --> 0:53:07.160
<v Speaker 1>so smart, where they have a different grass in the

0:53:07.200 --> 0:53:11.160
<v Speaker 1>approaches so that you can the shots. The architecture is

0:53:11.239 --> 0:53:13.880
<v Speaker 1>making fun. Yeah, yeah, it's not Cocullar you it's what

0:53:14.000 --> 0:53:17.400
<v Speaker 1>Riviera should do, but they're too worried about aesthetics there.

0:53:18.440 --> 0:53:22.719
<v Speaker 2>But anyways, so at at Gray Walls they have the

0:53:23.160 --> 0:53:27.360
<v Speaker 2>fescue and like, this is something I'd wonder with Bandon,

0:53:27.440 --> 0:53:30.600
<v Speaker 2>could you get fescue in the run up because Poe's

0:53:30.680 --> 0:53:33.600
<v Speaker 2>causing problems in like you can't hit link shots because

0:53:33.600 --> 0:53:34.960
<v Speaker 2>it's getting into the approaches.

0:53:35.360 --> 0:53:37.279
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you know, it's an interesting idea.

0:53:37.320 --> 0:53:40.960
<v Speaker 2>Because could you get that. I just started Childress Hall,

0:53:41.960 --> 0:53:48.440
<v Speaker 2>a new tom Doak course in Texas. They're doing fescue

0:53:48.440 --> 0:53:56.200
<v Speaker 2>approaches and they have the I think they have Bermuda.

0:53:57.239 --> 0:54:00.840
<v Speaker 2>I think they have bent greens. If I recall fescue

0:54:00.840 --> 0:54:03.359
<v Speaker 2>approaches in Bermuda, fairways.

0:54:03.200 --> 0:54:07.719
<v Speaker 1>Interesting and that's in an odd setting for grasses too, right,

0:54:07.880 --> 0:54:10.719
<v Speaker 1>they're pretty much in the transition zone there, right, the

0:54:10.719 --> 0:54:15.440
<v Speaker 1>transition zone between warm season and cold season grasses. Yes,

0:54:15.480 --> 0:54:17.320
<v Speaker 1>and so they can kind of have that combination.

0:54:17.960 --> 0:54:22.080
<v Speaker 2>But like thinking about like what grass is like, Okay,

0:54:22.080 --> 0:54:26.080
<v Speaker 2>fescue is going to be hard to do to fight

0:54:26.320 --> 0:54:29.080
<v Speaker 2>on the green. Maybe we give up the green as

0:54:29.160 --> 0:54:33.360
<v Speaker 2>poa and everybody can, but let's keep our fescue approaches

0:54:33.400 --> 0:54:36.279
<v Speaker 2>so people can hit the link shots into the green. Yeah,

0:54:36.280 --> 0:54:38.440
<v Speaker 2>Because that's what you want to go to abandon and

0:54:38.480 --> 0:54:40.960
<v Speaker 2>do is you want to hit the shots that land

0:54:41.000 --> 0:54:43.920
<v Speaker 2>short and bounce up. You want to have the ability

0:54:44.000 --> 0:54:47.640
<v Speaker 2>when you're off the green to hit that seemingly frictionless

0:54:47.680 --> 0:54:49.680
<v Speaker 2>six iron, bump and run you know.

0:54:50.360 --> 0:54:52.359
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Yeah, that's what you really want to do at

0:54:52.360 --> 0:54:55.040
<v Speaker 1>Old McDonald. Right, that's the whole course there, and so

0:54:55.080 --> 0:54:57.360
<v Speaker 1>if you lose that, it's it's sort of a bummer,

0:54:57.960 --> 0:55:02.520
<v Speaker 1>all right. Can I ask you another question here? Yes,

0:55:05.040 --> 0:55:10.080
<v Speaker 1>this is this question kind of made me laugh. Bricky Legumes,

0:55:10.600 --> 0:55:13.880
<v Speaker 1>in your opinion, what is the worst golf hole on

0:55:13.960 --> 0:55:17.400
<v Speaker 1>a superb slash top twenty US course.

0:55:19.920 --> 0:55:22.800
<v Speaker 2>Man, I'm going to make some enemies here.

0:55:24.840 --> 0:55:26.239
<v Speaker 1>Should we go nice on this? One.

0:55:26.400 --> 0:55:30.880
<v Speaker 2>No, no, I let me see, do you what do

0:55:30.920 --> 0:55:31.160
<v Speaker 2>you want?

0:55:31.320 --> 0:55:35.759
<v Speaker 1>I think you want my immediate immediate idea that comes

0:55:35.840 --> 0:55:38.440
<v Speaker 1>to mind. And I want to state for the record

0:55:38.800 --> 0:55:44.120
<v Speaker 1>that that I lived in Pebble Beach for five years,

0:55:44.400 --> 0:55:48.839
<v Speaker 1>New York, and I loved it, and I love that

0:55:48.880 --> 0:55:51.239
<v Speaker 1>golf course, and I truly think that it is and

0:55:51.360 --> 0:55:54.000
<v Speaker 1>can be. Not that it is, but it can be

0:55:54.160 --> 0:55:59.440
<v Speaker 1>a top twenty golf course in America. And those holes

0:55:59.800 --> 0:56:03.719
<v Speaker 1>along the ocean are extraordinary. And you know, arguing that

0:56:03.800 --> 0:56:05.640
<v Speaker 1>if the ocean weren't there, it wouldn't be as well

0:56:05.680 --> 0:56:08.120
<v Speaker 1>regarded a golf courses pointless because the ocean is there,

0:56:08.680 --> 0:56:11.360
<v Speaker 1>and there's so many wonderful things about that course, and

0:56:11.440 --> 0:56:14.719
<v Speaker 1>it is truly near and dear to my heart. But

0:56:14.760 --> 0:56:16.640
<v Speaker 1>the fifteenth hole at Pebble Beach.

0:56:18.000 --> 0:56:20.040
<v Speaker 2>I thought you were going to go with, what about five?

0:56:22.520 --> 0:56:28.719
<v Speaker 1>Well five is more like I'm disappointed in you. You know,

0:56:29.239 --> 0:56:32.799
<v Speaker 1>you wasted an opportunity, You hired the wrong architect, you

0:56:32.920 --> 0:56:38.000
<v Speaker 1>had the wrong idea, you ruined a great routing sequence

0:56:38.520 --> 0:56:42.160
<v Speaker 1>on the course. There are all those reasons, but ultimately five,

0:56:43.080 --> 0:56:46.279
<v Speaker 1>the hole along the cliffs that Jack Nicholas added a

0:56:46.320 --> 0:56:48.520
<v Speaker 1>while back, you know, it used to play inland now

0:56:48.520 --> 0:56:51.839
<v Speaker 1>plays along the cliffs. Is not really on its own

0:56:52.320 --> 0:56:54.879
<v Speaker 1>a bad golf hole, and it's it's certainly right next

0:56:54.880 --> 0:56:56.680
<v Speaker 1>to the ocean and all that's kind of nice. But

0:56:57.280 --> 0:57:00.640
<v Speaker 1>the fifteenth hole a Pebble Beach is just there's nothing

0:57:00.680 --> 0:57:03.279
<v Speaker 1>going on there. Can you tell me something that that

0:57:03.360 --> 0:57:06.000
<v Speaker 1>I should like about the fifteenth hole at Pebble Beach?

0:57:07.440 --> 0:57:08.120
<v Speaker 2>I got nothing.

0:57:10.080 --> 0:57:13.240
<v Speaker 1>It's just I mean, for a course of that stature,

0:57:13.960 --> 0:57:17.560
<v Speaker 1>I think a whole like that is just it's just,

0:57:18.840 --> 0:57:20.080
<v Speaker 1>you know, objectionable.

0:57:21.480 --> 0:57:26.919
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I can't think of anything I like about it.

0:57:26.920 --> 0:57:30.320
<v Speaker 1>It's really just nothing going on. I'm not even sure

0:57:30.320 --> 0:57:32.000
<v Speaker 1>what it was originally. I'm not sure that it was

0:57:32.040 --> 0:57:35.080
<v Speaker 1>a great hole originally, but certainly none of the changes

0:57:35.120 --> 0:57:37.400
<v Speaker 1>that they've made since then have have improved it any

0:57:37.640 --> 0:57:41.400
<v Speaker 1>So that that holds a problem.

0:57:42.800 --> 0:57:49.760
<v Speaker 2>I'll just go I'll go differently. I've kind of like,

0:57:50.320 --> 0:57:52.200
<v Speaker 2>I'm kind of just tired of her dance.

0:57:56.680 --> 0:58:01.240
<v Speaker 1>Are you tired of like pale imitations of the Dan

0:58:01.520 --> 0:58:04.600
<v Speaker 1>or just do you think it's like an overused concept

0:58:04.640 --> 0:58:05.120
<v Speaker 1>in general?

0:58:05.560 --> 0:58:07.760
<v Speaker 2>I think I'm just tired of them.

0:58:08.080 --> 0:58:09.600
<v Speaker 1>Don't even like the one at Chicago.

0:58:10.080 --> 0:58:15.400
<v Speaker 2>No, I like that one. That one's really good. It's fine,

0:58:15.560 --> 0:58:18.200
<v Speaker 2>I play it well, everybody hates it. I also have

0:58:18.360 --> 0:58:21.040
<v Speaker 2>like an epic chip in from right this year, so

0:58:21.120 --> 0:58:22.000
<v Speaker 2>I think I like it.

0:58:22.920 --> 0:58:25.240
<v Speaker 1>You know, it's not a very good reason.

0:58:25.720 --> 0:58:28.920
<v Speaker 2>It isn't it's a terrible reason, but like I'll never

0:58:28.960 --> 0:58:31.160
<v Speaker 2>forget the shot. It was like the best shot, maybe

0:58:31.200 --> 0:58:32.320
<v Speaker 2>the best shot hit all year.

0:58:33.560 --> 0:58:35.480
<v Speaker 1>Well, you're tired of ra dance and where you go?

0:58:36.560 --> 0:58:38.400
<v Speaker 2>So I'm going to go with the second hole at

0:58:38.480 --> 0:58:41.280
<v Speaker 2>Fisher's Island. I think it's the worst hole on the

0:58:41.280 --> 0:58:42.000
<v Speaker 2>golf course.

0:58:42.400 --> 0:58:43.240
<v Speaker 1>Interesting choice.

0:58:43.240 --> 0:58:46.120
<v Speaker 2>I think it's just like not a good radan. Yeah,

0:58:46.280 --> 0:58:51.400
<v Speaker 2>it's it's just like kind of there. I love Fisher's Island,

0:58:51.680 --> 0:58:54.919
<v Speaker 2>all right. I love the golf course, and like here's

0:58:54.960 --> 0:58:57.880
<v Speaker 2>the thing I'm I'm like okay with, of course having

0:58:58.320 --> 0:59:00.240
<v Speaker 2>a hole that might sting now.

0:59:00.720 --> 0:59:02.480
<v Speaker 1>And I'm actually kind of okay with a whole like

0:59:02.520 --> 0:59:05.840
<v Speaker 1>the fifteenth at Pebble if it if there weren't other

0:59:05.920 --> 0:59:08.400
<v Speaker 1>problems with the course, if you're transitioning from one great

0:59:08.440 --> 0:59:10.160
<v Speaker 1>hole to another and you kind of have a chill

0:59:10.200 --> 0:59:12.600
<v Speaker 1>hole in between, okay, that's fine.

0:59:13.960 --> 0:59:17.000
<v Speaker 2>And the second spine it's I think like one of

0:59:17.000 --> 0:59:20.640
<v Speaker 2>the things I think I'd like to see a golf

0:59:20.680 --> 0:59:24.080
<v Speaker 2>course that was built with just eighteen par fours.

0:59:25.080 --> 0:59:28.800
<v Speaker 1>This is uh, you know, your your par five trutherism

0:59:29.040 --> 0:59:33.919
<v Speaker 1>is a real twist in your golf philosophy. You said

0:59:33.920 --> 0:59:36.800
<v Speaker 1>in the last podcast that you just you either don't

0:59:36.800 --> 0:59:39.440
<v Speaker 1>think par fives exist or don't think they should exist.

0:59:40.040 --> 0:59:42.520
<v Speaker 1>Now we're talking about all par fours. Are we applying

0:59:42.520 --> 0:59:44.600
<v Speaker 1>the same thing to par three's? We should? I mean

0:59:44.760 --> 0:59:45.800
<v Speaker 1>to take them out of the equation.

0:59:46.240 --> 0:59:48.840
<v Speaker 2>No, I like par three's. I do like like they're

0:59:48.920 --> 0:59:52.120
<v Speaker 2>they're like, but they're just execution tests For the most part.

0:59:52.960 --> 0:59:55.400
<v Speaker 2>I struggle with the idea of like is their strategy

0:59:55.440 --> 0:59:56.440
<v Speaker 2>in Part threees.

0:59:58.160 --> 1:00:02.280
<v Speaker 1>Well, I think the strategy is different pin positions and

1:00:02.360 --> 1:00:08.400
<v Speaker 1>how much you take on right. The design virtue of

1:00:08.440 --> 1:00:11.960
<v Speaker 1>a good Part three is that it creates interesting pin

1:00:12.040 --> 1:00:15.640
<v Speaker 1>positions where you can make risk reward decisions about what

1:00:15.800 --> 1:00:17.439
<v Speaker 1>line you're taking at the green.

1:00:18.480 --> 1:00:22.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, there are execution tests, right, and.

1:00:22.480 --> 1:00:24.200
<v Speaker 1>I think so I think there's a choice in there.

1:00:24.240 --> 1:00:26.480
<v Speaker 1>You're choosing the line that you're taking, right. If you

1:00:26.520 --> 1:00:28.400
<v Speaker 1>take on too much then you might get punished.

1:00:28.760 --> 1:00:31.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think it's like I think you can. You

1:00:31.920 --> 1:00:34.400
<v Speaker 2>can be a little bit more bold too, because it's

1:00:34.440 --> 1:00:37.880
<v Speaker 2>like you're hitting from a flat lie off a T right.

1:00:38.400 --> 1:00:40.480
<v Speaker 2>So some of the stuff you can do on a

1:00:40.520 --> 1:00:43.760
<v Speaker 2>par three you can't do on a part four because

1:00:43.840 --> 1:00:48.040
<v Speaker 2>you are you You're you're giving a player a flat

1:00:48.120 --> 1:00:52.080
<v Speaker 2>lie off a T right, So that immediately allows you

1:00:52.160 --> 1:00:54.880
<v Speaker 2>to have a little bit more going on in the

1:00:54.960 --> 1:01:01.000
<v Speaker 2>approach around the green with hazards everything. But I mean,

1:01:01.120 --> 1:01:05.280
<v Speaker 2>like par four's I think like a part three would

1:01:05.360 --> 1:01:08.000
<v Speaker 2>be fun if you could use the entire tea box,

1:01:10.040 --> 1:01:12.360
<v Speaker 2>Like if I had the option to use the all

1:01:12.400 --> 1:01:14.560
<v Speaker 2>the way right or all the way left. I'd like

1:01:14.640 --> 1:01:17.800
<v Speaker 2>to think that Like one of the things I think

1:01:17.880 --> 1:01:20.720
<v Speaker 2>that I can gain an advantage of over a lot

1:01:20.720 --> 1:01:22.880
<v Speaker 2>of players is just like the right place where I

1:01:22.920 --> 1:01:26.040
<v Speaker 2>tea up on every hole I think, I think about

1:01:26.040 --> 1:01:27.840
<v Speaker 2>where I'm going to put my tea in the ground

1:01:28.360 --> 1:01:30.960
<v Speaker 2>to best get to a hole or best get to

1:01:30.960 --> 1:01:34.080
<v Speaker 2>a spot in the fairway, best to you know, help

1:01:34.160 --> 1:01:36.640
<v Speaker 2>shape the shape of shot that I'm hitting on a

1:01:36.920 --> 1:01:40.200
<v Speaker 2>daily basis. But like with a par three, So anyways,

1:01:40.320 --> 1:01:42.800
<v Speaker 2>what I like about part fours is like that nature

1:01:42.840 --> 1:01:46.120
<v Speaker 2>of it. There's like this and that like par three's

1:01:46.160 --> 1:01:49.280
<v Speaker 2>are such a guided like you're here and you hit

1:01:49.320 --> 1:01:55.919
<v Speaker 2>it there, and there's so little optionality in it. Right,

1:01:57.120 --> 1:02:00.920
<v Speaker 2>So I guess like I think, like as I've started

1:02:00.960 --> 1:02:03.640
<v Speaker 2>to think about it, I've been thinking about this a

1:02:03.680 --> 1:02:08.080
<v Speaker 2>lot lately. Is that like I think like par three's

1:02:08.080 --> 1:02:11.280
<v Speaker 2>are the least dynamicals in golf but in general, but

1:02:11.320 --> 1:02:15.760
<v Speaker 2>they're the hardest ones to build dynamic nature into because

1:02:15.800 --> 1:02:19.000
<v Speaker 2>they're like you're hitting off a tee and you're hitting

1:02:19.000 --> 1:02:19.520
<v Speaker 2>this spot.

1:02:21.240 --> 1:02:22.720
<v Speaker 1>Well, you know what what?

1:02:22.840 --> 1:02:27.480
<v Speaker 2>Part three are revered? People take pictures of them because they're.

1:02:27.320 --> 1:02:31.960
<v Speaker 1>Popular, right, they're well, it's it's the best opportunity for

1:02:32.120 --> 1:02:35.360
<v Speaker 1>an architect to create prettiness on a golf course really

1:02:35.480 --> 1:02:39.840
<v Speaker 1>is a par three because you're just creating one picture.

1:02:40.080 --> 1:02:43.760
<v Speaker 1>You're creating one one painting there and and so you

1:02:43.760 --> 1:02:46.240
<v Speaker 1>you can have some control over the composition in a

1:02:46.280 --> 1:02:49.000
<v Speaker 1>way that you don't when players are just sort of

1:02:49.160 --> 1:02:51.919
<v Speaker 1>going where they go on a hole. And so yeah,

1:02:52.280 --> 1:02:56.600
<v Speaker 1>they're they're shallower maybe in that way and not as intricate.

1:02:57.160 --> 1:03:00.200
<v Speaker 1>But I think the main argument for them is just strategy,

1:03:00.280 --> 1:03:03.600
<v Speaker 1>because I'm imagined I didn't mean to say strategy. The

1:03:03.720 --> 1:03:08.840
<v Speaker 1>argument for them is variety. Yeah, because if you're hypothetical

1:03:08.840 --> 1:03:11.720
<v Speaker 1>golf course with eighteen par fours, the danger of that

1:03:11.840 --> 1:03:14.040
<v Speaker 1>course is that it that it feels repetitive.

1:03:14.320 --> 1:03:16.760
<v Speaker 2>Well we should try threes, break away, should try it?

1:03:17.400 --> 1:03:20.800
<v Speaker 1>Why not, you know, just for the sake of variety

1:03:20.840 --> 1:03:23.240
<v Speaker 1>across golf courses as opposed to within the golf course.

1:03:23.560 --> 1:03:26.200
<v Speaker 2>Argue, my favorite golf course in the world has sixteen

1:03:26.280 --> 1:03:27.240
<v Speaker 2>par fours.

1:03:27.480 --> 1:03:27.800
<v Speaker 1>What's that?

1:03:29.400 --> 1:03:29.600
<v Speaker 2>Oh?

1:03:29.640 --> 1:03:33.280
<v Speaker 1>Sure? Yeah, Well, you know, this is something funny that

1:03:33.880 --> 1:03:38.600
<v Speaker 1>about like pre twentieth century architecture is that par three's

1:03:39.080 --> 1:03:42.920
<v Speaker 1>weren't a thing really. I mean, I guess kind of

1:03:42.960 --> 1:03:46.800
<v Speaker 1>a thing. Maybe they had really short holes. But you know,

1:03:46.800 --> 1:03:49.919
<v Speaker 1>if you think about Saint Andrews, for instance, there are

1:03:50.560 --> 1:03:55.600
<v Speaker 1>two par three's there and the rest of the holes

1:03:55.680 --> 1:03:57.040
<v Speaker 1>are just long holes.

1:03:57.440 --> 1:03:59.000
<v Speaker 2>That's one of my favorite courses too.

1:04:00.120 --> 1:04:02.000
<v Speaker 1>Go maybe you just don't like threes.

1:04:02.280 --> 1:04:04.280
<v Speaker 2>One of the best part threes in the world, I

1:04:04.320 --> 1:04:12.600
<v Speaker 2>think is the sixteenth at Cyprus. There's actually a real consideration. Yeah, right,

1:04:13.400 --> 1:04:16.400
<v Speaker 2>Like I think if I like there's you get there

1:04:16.440 --> 1:04:19.880
<v Speaker 2>and there's like the novelty of going for it. But

1:04:20.000 --> 1:04:22.919
<v Speaker 2>I think if I played there a lot, I would

1:04:23.000 --> 1:04:26.680
<v Speaker 2>just start laying up. Yeah, and unless it was like

1:04:26.760 --> 1:04:28.840
<v Speaker 2>a calm day and I felt like I was swinging

1:04:28.880 --> 1:04:33.800
<v Speaker 2>really good man, because it's just like such an insanely

1:04:34.000 --> 1:04:34.680
<v Speaker 2>hard shot.

1:04:35.160 --> 1:04:37.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but you can't convince yourself to lay up. Maybe

1:04:38.000 --> 1:04:40.320
<v Speaker 1>maybe that is like a playing playing once in your

1:04:40.360 --> 1:04:42.480
<v Speaker 1>life kind of thing where that's what I'm saying. I

1:04:42.680 --> 1:04:44.880
<v Speaker 1>cannot lay up. But if you, yeah, if you played

1:04:44.880 --> 1:04:46.880
<v Speaker 1>there regularly, I don't know if I would. Even even

1:04:46.920 --> 1:04:48.960
<v Speaker 1>if I played there regularly, I wouldn't be able to

1:04:49.200 --> 1:04:51.960
<v Speaker 1>restrain myself from going for it. It's so tempting.

1:04:52.720 --> 1:04:55.640
<v Speaker 2>I played at a club that had a crazy green.

1:04:57.400 --> 1:05:01.080
<v Speaker 2>It's it's a public course now it's Calium at country club.

1:05:01.160 --> 1:05:03.720
<v Speaker 2>It's on the south side of Chicago. I mean it

1:05:03.840 --> 1:05:07.080
<v Speaker 2>had so many different iterations of routings and what number

1:05:07.120 --> 1:05:09.360
<v Speaker 2>it was, but it was the fourteenth hole when I

1:05:09.360 --> 1:05:12.760
<v Speaker 2>played there a lot, and it was like so severely

1:05:12.880 --> 1:05:18.800
<v Speaker 2>sloped front to back that if you got anywhere pin high,

1:05:19.360 --> 1:05:22.560
<v Speaker 2>it was like a disaster. You were you were going

1:05:22.640 --> 1:05:25.360
<v Speaker 2>to have to like hit in a miraculous putt to

1:05:25.440 --> 1:05:28.560
<v Speaker 2>two putt because the green had so much pitch in it.

1:05:29.640 --> 1:05:32.840
<v Speaker 2>And I would regularly lay up. I would lay up,

1:05:34.160 --> 1:05:37.720
<v Speaker 2>I'd hit a club. I literally would hit a club

1:05:38.040 --> 1:05:41.240
<v Speaker 2>that would get me, that would, by no means get

1:05:41.280 --> 1:05:43.240
<v Speaker 2>me past the front edge of the green.

1:05:43.520 --> 1:05:49.120
<v Speaker 1>Right, didn't Billy Casper do something like this at wingfoot? Yeah?

1:05:49.240 --> 1:05:53.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he did on the third hole, okay, right, yeah,

1:05:53.840 --> 1:05:55.880
<v Speaker 2>And and so like to me, that's a par three

1:05:55.920 --> 1:05:59.880
<v Speaker 2>that has some strategy in the sense of like, yeah,

1:06:00.160 --> 1:06:03.360
<v Speaker 2>like it's funny. I played there like a million times.

1:06:03.440 --> 1:06:05.960
<v Speaker 2>It was the only hole in my life I never burdied.

1:06:06.400 --> 1:06:10.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I will say this, most of my favorite par

1:06:10.560 --> 1:06:15.800
<v Speaker 1>threes are either really short or really long. Yeah, They're

1:06:15.800 --> 1:06:18.600
<v Speaker 1>the ones that push at the edges of the category.

1:06:19.160 --> 1:06:20.919
<v Speaker 1>Because just a one hundred and fifty to one hundred

1:06:20.920 --> 1:06:24.240
<v Speaker 1>and seventy yard par three, it can be really cool.

1:06:25.000 --> 1:06:27.280
<v Speaker 1>But if you're just hitting a mid iron, or if

1:06:27.320 --> 1:06:30.480
<v Speaker 1>you're a stronger player a short iron, I'm not sure

1:06:30.480 --> 1:06:33.480
<v Speaker 1>how much can really how much how much excitement there

1:06:33.480 --> 1:06:34.040
<v Speaker 1>can be in that.

1:06:36.520 --> 1:06:40.640
<v Speaker 2>Short par threes I do have like a slight As

1:06:40.680 --> 1:06:46.200
<v Speaker 2>I've thought about them more, I think they're I think

1:06:46.200 --> 1:06:49.120
<v Speaker 2>a lot of them kind of stink in terms of playability,

1:06:49.360 --> 1:06:52.280
<v Speaker 2>Like a low trajectory player has like no chance.

1:06:52.760 --> 1:06:55.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, because the way they're often defended is by having

1:06:55.560 --> 1:06:57.880
<v Speaker 1>a small green surrounded by hazards.

1:06:58.120 --> 1:07:01.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and like there's no way to stop land it

1:07:01.160 --> 1:07:02.760
<v Speaker 2>on and stop it close.

1:07:03.360 --> 1:07:06.840
<v Speaker 1>M Yeah, I kind of agree with that. But I mean,

1:07:07.080 --> 1:07:09.080
<v Speaker 1>if you look at the Sandbox for instance, to go

1:07:09.120 --> 1:07:12.320
<v Speaker 1>back to sand Valley, those are basically all kind of

1:07:12.360 --> 1:07:15.360
<v Speaker 1>shortish part threes. But there are so many different versions

1:07:15.480 --> 1:07:18.040
<v Speaker 1>of the short par three that they found in that course,

1:07:18.080 --> 1:07:20.120
<v Speaker 1>and maybe those can be kind of some more models

1:07:20.440 --> 1:07:22.400
<v Speaker 1>for how you could make a short part three interesting.

1:07:23.040 --> 1:07:25.920
<v Speaker 2>So I guess I'm jokingly asking should par fives or

1:07:25.960 --> 1:07:28.120
<v Speaker 2>par threes even exist? Should we just go to just

1:07:28.160 --> 1:07:29.600
<v Speaker 2>a straight par four game.

1:07:29.880 --> 1:07:32.040
<v Speaker 1>Let's put that out there to the listeners. They can

1:07:32.120 --> 1:07:34.440
<v Speaker 1>they can discuss. They can discuss it on Blue Sky.

1:07:35.400 --> 1:07:38.480
<v Speaker 2>Or I Take It or Instagram or anywhere.

1:07:38.120 --> 1:07:41.400
<v Speaker 1>You want the social media platform of your choice. You have.

1:07:41.960 --> 1:07:44.080
<v Speaker 1>You have choices into society.

1:07:44.320 --> 1:07:46.480
<v Speaker 2>I don't. I can't do all of them. There's too

1:07:46.480 --> 1:07:47.080
<v Speaker 2>many of them.

1:07:47.120 --> 1:07:48.960
<v Speaker 1>I know. It's way. It's it's you have to make

1:07:49.000 --> 1:07:54.320
<v Speaker 1>a choice, you do. Yeah, what kind of person are you? Andy?

1:07:54.760 --> 1:07:56.240
<v Speaker 2>Oh, that's a terrible person.

1:07:56.520 --> 1:07:59.520
<v Speaker 1>It's a yeah, how about just withdraw YouTube.

1:07:59.080 --> 1:08:04.000
<v Speaker 2>Comments PJ in his in our comments, YouTube comments.

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<v Speaker 1>PJ loves the YouTube comments. That's that's his that's his

1:08:06.960 --> 1:08:10.880
<v Speaker 1>natural environment. In this discussion of the worst holes on

1:08:10.920 --> 1:08:13.720
<v Speaker 1>the best courses, By the way, I think Riviera got

1:08:13.720 --> 1:08:16.080
<v Speaker 1>off easy. I'm just gonna throw that out there. I

1:08:16.720 --> 1:08:20.719
<v Speaker 1>think there's some candidates at Riviera truly a top twenty

1:08:20.760 --> 1:08:25.400
<v Speaker 1>golf course. But oh boy, with oh god, I don't

1:08:25.439 --> 1:08:28.799
<v Speaker 1>even know. Maybe maybe maybe the current state of eleven.

1:08:32.200 --> 1:08:34.840
<v Speaker 1>I mean, come on, that's a great golf hole. But

1:08:35.479 --> 1:08:38.160
<v Speaker 1>my goodness, they have they have abused that poor thing.

1:08:38.960 --> 1:08:42.960
<v Speaker 2>What about if you combined one fair away with four

1:08:43.040 --> 1:08:45.680
<v Speaker 2>green surrounds green in the surrounds.

1:08:45.720 --> 1:08:46.800
<v Speaker 1>Okay, let me think about this.

1:08:47.200 --> 1:08:49.320
<v Speaker 2>If you took one fair away, you hit a t

1:08:49.479 --> 1:08:52.240
<v Speaker 2>shot on one, and then the pro shot was the

1:08:52.280 --> 1:08:53.280
<v Speaker 2>approach into four?

1:08:55.280 --> 1:08:59.759
<v Speaker 1>Okay, yeah, four being the ridan actually another another another,

1:09:00.080 --> 1:09:03.400
<v Speaker 1>and that with the sticky cocillo approach that nobody can

1:09:03.400 --> 1:09:06.360
<v Speaker 1>get through in the overly fast screen that nobody can hold.

1:09:07.760 --> 1:09:08.599
<v Speaker 1>That would defend it.

1:09:10.680 --> 1:09:13.400
<v Speaker 2>To be fair. I didn't say I disliked for Dance.

1:09:13.560 --> 1:09:18.200
<v Speaker 2>I'm just tired of them. I've reached I've reached a

1:09:18.280 --> 1:09:19.160
<v Speaker 2>tired point.

1:09:19.560 --> 1:09:23.200
<v Speaker 1>Andy Johnson, Dan hater. Are we going to wrap up

1:09:23.240 --> 1:09:23.400
<v Speaker 1>with that?

1:09:23.840 --> 1:09:26.080
<v Speaker 2>I think that's it. I think this is this has

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<v Speaker 2>reached its conclusion. Mark. Thank you to everybody for the questions. Garrett,

1:09:31.160 --> 1:09:34.280
<v Speaker 2>thanks for jumping on, of course and doing this. This

1:09:34.360 --> 1:09:38.160
<v Speaker 2>is a fun week of pods. It as always PJ

1:09:38.840 --> 1:09:43.439
<v Speaker 2>Big thanks to PJ Clark editing producing this podcast. He's

1:09:43.520 --> 1:09:44.719
<v Speaker 2>a he's a rock star.

1:09:45.000 --> 1:09:48.960
<v Speaker 1>Listen, we're recording this kind of late right now, so honestly,

1:09:49.200 --> 1:09:51.759
<v Speaker 1>send PJ a nice note, like we love you, PJ.

1:09:53.600 --> 1:09:57.840
<v Speaker 2>If you haven't yet, check out Club TFE. It's our membership.

1:09:58.080 --> 1:10:02.000
<v Speaker 2>We uh put a lot golf course architecture stuff up there.

1:10:02.160 --> 1:10:07.120
<v Speaker 2>Garrett's Garrett's a maniac there. He's writing like sometimes like

1:10:07.240 --> 1:10:12.400
<v Speaker 2>three thousand words a week and there regularly regularly above

1:10:12.439 --> 1:10:17.800
<v Speaker 2>a thousand about golf architecture. And then we have, you know,

1:10:17.960 --> 1:10:20.559
<v Speaker 2>we just released our events slate, as we talked about

1:10:20.560 --> 1:10:22.679
<v Speaker 2>in part one of this podcast. If you're a clip

1:10:22.720 --> 1:10:26.000
<v Speaker 2>TFE member, you get early access. It's one hundred and

1:10:26.040 --> 1:10:29.519
<v Speaker 2>twenty dollars for the year, and it really helps us

1:10:29.560 --> 1:10:34.120
<v Speaker 2>continue to grow and continue to do more architecture coverage,

1:10:34.160 --> 1:10:37.680
<v Speaker 2>which I think I think everybody wants more of so

1:10:38.160 --> 1:10:42.440
<v Speaker 2>thank you guys, and thanks for listening to another episode

1:10:42.560 --> 1:10:44.360
<v Speaker 2>of the Friday Golf Podcast.