Speaker 1: I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset.
Speaker 2: When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
Speaker 2: And when I find my ball.
Speaker 1: In a Frida egg Friday egg, the dreaded Friday Egg, Friday,
Speaker 1: Frida Egg brid Egg, Frida Egg bride egg Lie.
Speaker 2: I'm about ready to run off of the hump. Welcome
Speaker 2: back to another edition of the Friday eg Golf Podcast.
Speaker 2: I'm your host, Andy Johnson, and I am joined by
Speaker 2: a fellow co host here, Garrett Morrison. We are going
Speaker 2: to continue our architecture mail bag. We recorded a podcast
Speaker 2: earlier this week that kind of centered around golf architecture.
Speaker 2: We talked about the rankings, we talked about our event courses,
Speaker 2: and we did a mail bag where we got to
Speaker 2: a few questions. I think our conversation about the top
Speaker 2: one hundred rankings recently released by Golf Magazine went a
Speaker 2: little bit longer than we anticipated, so we got to
Speaker 2: fewer questions. So thus we're we're going to dive into
Speaker 2: a lot of questions in this podcast and get to
Speaker 2: those reader and listener questions. So Garrett, welcome on, Thanks
Speaker 2: for joining big week here of mail bag questioned question pods.
Speaker 1: Good to be here. Thanks for having me on. You
Speaker 1: want to dive right in.
Speaker 2: I was going to talk about our friends over at
Speaker 2: True Golf first.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, of course I got to do that.
Speaker 2: Yeah. You know, they make this stuff possible. If you're
Speaker 2: into golf architecture, if you're into playing golf courses, True
Speaker 2: Golf is something you can do during these winter months.
Speaker 2: They have a product called launch Box, and it is
Speaker 2: a launch monitor is a poor launch monitor and golf
Speaker 2: simulator from True Golf. It seamlessly connects to your PC
Speaker 2: or iOS device, and it makes it super easy to
Speaker 2: play golf courses or improve your golf game year round.
Speaker 2: I would love to just get really dialed in on
Speaker 2: Wedge practice go DJ style with my with my Wedge game,
Speaker 2: and I'm thinking that the launch Box will be perfect
Speaker 2: for that. A couple of things that the launch Box
Speaker 2: offers simple setup, instant shot registration, accurate measure data, and
Speaker 2: easy and easy Wi Fi connection. So one of the
Speaker 2: great things about this product it can be used inside,
Speaker 2: So if you want to set up like kind of
Speaker 2: an in home setup, you could use it inside. If
Speaker 2: you want to convert a part of your garage to
Speaker 2: this or your basement. You could do that inside or
Speaker 2: if you're in a more temperate place where outside practice
Speaker 2: is feasible at this time of year. It works off
Speaker 2: mats side, so this could be even an outdoor setup
Speaker 2: where you find a part of your backyard, put a
Speaker 2: matt down, put this baby out there and get a
Speaker 2: net and it can be that. So it's really versatile.
Speaker 2: You can obviously can take to the driving range as well,
Speaker 2: but one of the neat things is you can play
Speaker 2: golf courses. So it is a way to stay fresh.
Speaker 2: It's a way to scratch that golf itch, especially these
Speaker 2: winter months. If you want to learn more about True
Speaker 2: Golf's launch box, go to True golf dot com slash egg.
Speaker 2: That's True Golf t r U g o lf dot
Speaker 2: com slash egg. All right, let's dive into the architecture
Speaker 2: mail bag. We got a ton of questions, so let's
Speaker 2: just get cooking here. Let's talk about LINEA Withthikam ask
Speaker 2: Michigan and Yale excluded. What are some of your favorite
Speaker 2: university owned golf courses architecture wise, now that Yale is
Speaker 2: under renovation, any courses you can think of that should
Speaker 2: have work done?
Speaker 1: Great question? I haven't played all of these, but the
Speaker 1: list I came up with when I saw Lenea's question
Speaker 1: included the Iowa State Course Vinker Memorial I think.
Speaker 2: Is what it's called, Perry Maxwell.
Speaker 1: Perry Maxwell Golf Course could use some work, probably some
Speaker 1: restoration work, So that would be, like candidate number one,
Speaker 1: probably the course that I'm most interested in seeing and
Speaker 1: finding out more about. Certainly, Stanford Golf Course is a
Speaker 1: classic George Thomas Billy Bell designed, I think mostly Billy Bell.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure of the history there, but I've played
Speaker 1: this course and it was years ago. But a lot
Speaker 1: of cool holes out there and some great land.
Speaker 2: I have too. This is definitely a high potential one
Speaker 2: where you could it could just get a lot better.
Speaker 2: I think like they have an awesome practice facility for
Speaker 2: the team, and I just imagine that they will continue
Speaker 2: to upgrade. You know what's an interesting fact about Stanford.
Speaker 2: Do you know what the most popular or the hardest
Speaker 2: class to get into at Stanford is? No?
Speaker 1: What is it?
Speaker 2: Intro to golf?
Speaker 1: Seriously, there's an intro to golf class, Yeah, that you
Speaker 1: take for a grade.
Speaker 2: Heard this the other day. Hardest class to get into
Speaker 2: at Stanford.
Speaker 1: Because everybody wants to do it. It sounds like a
Speaker 1: like a fun little schedule filler.
Speaker 2: I think two people like realize, hey, this would be
Speaker 2: good for my career if I, if I am, if
Speaker 2: I at least have some basic golf skills.
Speaker 1: All the budding entrepreneurs and tech executives who go to
Speaker 1: Stanford want to make sure that they can play some
Speaker 1: rounds at Cow Club and Metal Club and Sam Francisco
Speaker 1: Golf Club in such places.
Speaker 2: Well, I just I think it makes sense to have,
Speaker 2: you know, a good, good place to play for the students.
Speaker 2: It is a good place to play today. It could
Speaker 2: be it could be better though.
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely could be better. There are some issues with
Speaker 1: the property that have emerged over time, but also just
Speaker 1: basic design stuff. I think they could take a look
Speaker 1: at that course and consider what would Billy Bell do
Speaker 1: here and make it a bit better. Certainly, Ohio State
Speaker 1: Ohio State University. The Ohio State University has has some
Speaker 1: Alistair mackenzie work that has perhaps not been particularly well
Speaker 1: preserved by one of their alumni, Jack Nicholas Duke University
Speaker 1: golf course Robert Trent Jones course that actually looks pretty cool.
Speaker 1: I've never been there myself. But nineteen fifties Trent Jones.
Speaker 2: I think that I think that one is a candidate
Speaker 2: for a big renovation.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well you like, like do some Trent Jones stuff
Speaker 1: there though, right, don't, don't just blow it up. I
Speaker 1: want to see you know, this might be a radical
Speaker 1: position these days, but I'd kind of want to see
Speaker 1: some restorative work. Maybe improve some things here and there,
Speaker 1: but go for the feel of the nineteen fifties Robert
Speaker 1: Trent Jones golf course in a modern vein and yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean maybe with some modernizing touches, but take it
Speaker 1: serious what he was doing.
Speaker 2: You need to move some bunkers around.
Speaker 1: You know, I need to move some bunkers around. Yeah.
Speaker 2: That's like the hard thing with his style is it
Speaker 2: was so so based on Carrie distances.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Kerrie oriented, Yeah, protecting par Yeah, you know that
Speaker 1: kind of stuff is u is. It's hard. It's hard
Speaker 1: to age that stuff. But there are what are a
Speaker 1: bunch of others too? What other ones?
Speaker 2: What about Dennison Golf Club?
Speaker 1: You know, Okay, I don't know much about this one.
Speaker 2: So don ross. Yeah, I haven't played been there. I
Speaker 2: send people there all the time, who asked me for recommendations.
Speaker 2: Really it's yeah, it's it's supposed to be really cool,
Speaker 2: really cool property. Years ago they did like a kind
Speaker 2: of a stupid project that like they moved, they went
Speaker 2: up and they they kind of dis they got rid
Speaker 2: of the original eighteen holes and they have like this
Speaker 2: property up high that you go up to and it's
Speaker 2: like a housing development for three holes, but there's fifteen
Speaker 2: original Don Ross holes there on. Like a really nice property.
Speaker 2: And yeah, I think Don Ross's work in Ohio, you know,
Speaker 2: I've seen a lot of his work in Ohio. It's
Speaker 2: really outstanding. Like I think, like his work in Ohio
Speaker 2: and Michigan's probably his best work. So that one is
Speaker 2: really high on the list. I believe they have a
Speaker 2: renovation plan and in the works there they have they
Speaker 2: have maybe he could say, concepts of a plan and
Speaker 2: the works with a with a very high profile architect.
Speaker 2: So that's one that's that's pretty interesting.
Speaker 1: I've maybe heard some rumblings about this. I think people
Speaker 1: can probably guess the architect who might be involved. But
Speaker 1: in any case, what's what's actually starts handalizing about university
Speaker 1: courses is that often the universities have the ability to
Speaker 1: restore or renovate the courses because they can draw on
Speaker 1: these endowments that have over the past you know, twenty
Speaker 1: years or so, really grown at a lot of these universities.
Speaker 1: So that's why Yale is doing the work it's doing now,
Speaker 1: and hopefully, you know, the University of Michigan gets its
Speaker 1: act together sometime soon as well and takes a look
Speaker 1: at it's Alistair McKenzie course.
Speaker 2: We haven't mentioned, I mean these college the college stuff.
Speaker 2: I think this is something we haven't really talked about
Speaker 2: very much from like an architecture standpoint, that is actually
Speaker 2: pretty fascinating. These college facilities, the college golf programs are
Speaker 2: some of them are spending in insane amounts of money,
Speaker 2: like insane amounts of money on practice facilities and golf courses.
Speaker 2: You know, if you think about, like right now, University
Speaker 2: Alabama is about to open a facility that I believe
Speaker 2: I saw was like one hundred million dollars.
Speaker 1: It did. It did open, I think, and the course
Speaker 1: was renovated by Golf Design.
Speaker 2: Or love Golf Design okay, I don't know, was Jase No,
Speaker 2: it is love Golf Design, okay. Also being renovated is
Speaker 2: the Carston Creek Course.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2: Oklahoma State their golf course. Andrew Green's doing a renovation there,
Speaker 2: Like Vanderbilt just opened. I think it was like a
Speaker 2: fifteen million dollar practice facility. I mean it is. I
Speaker 2: do think like there is like we talk about golf
Speaker 2: design and a lot of vain for like the retail golfer.
Speaker 2: If if these college programs get to the point where
Speaker 2: they're designing golf courses for their college program, it's kind
Speaker 2: of a fascinating topic. Like how would you build a
Speaker 2: golf course for a men's and women's college golf team?
Speaker 2: Would do you build it? Like? To me, you're never
Speaker 2: going to play NCAA's at that course. Do you build
Speaker 2: the golf course to test like a wide like the
Speaker 2: widest range of skills to like, do you build it
Speaker 2: with different styles? Do you have like super narrow holes,
Speaker 2: wider holes, greens that like maybe the greens over eighteen
Speaker 2: holes don't fit together, but they offer a lot a
Speaker 2: wide range of variety. I just like, I think it's
Speaker 2: a fascinating topic because I think like the exercise of
Speaker 2: if you wanted to purely build a golf course for
Speaker 2: a college golf team, to practice at and play at
Speaker 2: and to qualify that one of the most important things
Speaker 2: is qualify at Like these court they this is the
Speaker 2: course that deems who goes on the road for your team.
Speaker 2: For the most part, I don't think you build a
Speaker 2: golf course in the traditional retail golf sense.
Speaker 1: Might be more of a test of skill as opposed
Speaker 1: to maximum playability.
Speaker 2: I think it'd be more of a test of skill,
Speaker 2: and I think you would want to have like supreme
Speaker 2: variety in the way you test the skill.
Speaker 1: On the other hand, these courses also serve students and alumni.
Speaker 2: Some of them. I think some of them are becoming.
Speaker 1: More and more becoming more like training facilities. Yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: And I think that's sort of a bummer, because you know,
Speaker 1: it's a really great addition to your college experience if
Speaker 1: you can go out and play a great golf course
Speaker 1: for cheap, I think that's a wonderful thing to offer students.
Speaker 1: So I also think it's great as a potential academic exercise. Right,
Speaker 1: you could take landscape architecture students out to this wonderfully
Speaker 1: built golf course and have like an infield lesson about
Speaker 1: some of the things that the architect did I think
Speaker 1: that would be really cool. You know, I've always thought
Speaker 1: that Yale's course had such potential in this regard, but
Speaker 1: the university never really used it in that way. Right,
Speaker 1: This is a university that really prizes its building architecture
Speaker 1: and uses its building architecture for pedagogical purposes all the time.
Speaker 1: But it has this classic SETH. Rayner golf course, unbelievable
Speaker 1: golf course that's completely unique, and never really took advantage
Speaker 1: of it as a teaching tool. And I think that
Speaker 1: some of these golf courses can be that. Maybe that's
Speaker 1: a bit of an exaggeration for some universities with the
Speaker 1: golf courses that they have have, but certainly a Perry
Speaker 1: Maxwell course at Ohio State could serve this purpose. I
Speaker 1: don't know Michigan for sure.
Speaker 2: Well, the thing that's interesting about the Ohio State thing
Speaker 2: is they have thirty six holes. That's right, Like they
Speaker 2: could make the scarlet they could build into like a
Speaker 2: you know, Mackenzie inspired I don't think there's real there's
Speaker 2: like I think there's a lot of questions about like
Speaker 2: how much time he spent there, but also like the
Speaker 2: idea of like, Okay, I don't know how well you
Speaker 2: could put it back right, but like having a Mackenzie
Speaker 2: inspired championship golf course on one side and then that
Speaker 2: great course the other course that's like short, it's on
Speaker 2: really nice land, Like it's a really nice piece of
Speaker 2: property that could be just like super fun, beginner friendly
Speaker 2: campus golf.
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, I love that idea. Yeah, well I can
Speaker 1: I shout out a couple of other University of University
Speaker 1: golf courses before we move on.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was gonna throw out the forgotten Michigan course,
Speaker 2: Raderick Farms. Yeah right, it's like super early Pete Die.
Speaker 2: It's awesome.
Speaker 1: Gu this Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: I played it. I played it years ago, probably about
Speaker 2: eight years ago. It was so fun.
Speaker 1: Anderson talks about this one a lot. A guy who
Speaker 1: shapes for Tom Doak and was on the podcast a
Speaker 1: while back. He studied it at Michigan and yeah, loves
Speaker 1: loves Raderick Farms.
Speaker 2: Radrick is really cool. It's a cool piece of land,
Speaker 2: some really neat holes, super fun place to play golf.
Speaker 1: Nice all right. Other great ones the Warren Course at
Speaker 1: Notre Dame. I don't know how closely associated it is
Speaker 1: with the university. I think pretty closely associated right Arry,
Speaker 1: But yeah, so it's there.
Speaker 2: This was like the early uh that golf course is
Speaker 2: different moment for me. I played a high school uh
Speaker 2: like a national junior event there when I was like
Speaker 2: fifteen or sixteen, and I'll like, never forget the greens.
Speaker 2: The greens were unlike anything I'd like ever put it on.
Speaker 2: They're really wild core Crunshaws greens.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they went for it because the land is like
Speaker 1: not quite sand Hills, you know. Yeah, so they went
Speaker 1: for some things.
Speaker 2: It's got some decent parts. It's got some decent moments
Speaker 2: in the land, but for the most part is flat.
Speaker 2: I played there a few years ago for the first
Speaker 2: time since since then, it's that's one of the best
Speaker 2: values in the world.
Speaker 1: Yes, well, that's another thing about university courses is that
Speaker 1: often they have a mission beyond just making money, and
Speaker 1: so that means that they can sometimes offer affordable access
Speaker 1: to the public, which is great. Tacnic Golf Club near
Speaker 1: Williams College up in the up in the Massachusetts. We'll
Speaker 1: always wanted to see that place, very cool place. I
Speaker 1: actually played it when I was in college. The course
Speaker 1: at Sawani nine hole, gil Han's golf course that you
Speaker 1: seen that. I haven't seen it. It's it's pretty close
Speaker 1: to Sweeten's Cove, Like it's within striking distance of Sweeten's Cove,
Speaker 1: so it makes for like a good double.
Speaker 2: I think it's absolutely insane that people are, like so
Speaker 2: many people go to Sweetens and don't go to Swani.
Speaker 1: Right, as long as you're out there apart and golf course,
Speaker 1: you're not gonna you don't have to spend an extra day.
Speaker 2: You know, well, you could do a day at Swane
Speaker 2: and a day at Sweetens. You could do a day
Speaker 2: at Sawane just like you do a day at Sweetens.
Speaker 2: It's super fun.
Speaker 1: I really I heard it's like a cool university too.
Speaker 2: It seems cool. I mean, it seems like a very
Speaker 2: beautiful place. I do look place to go to college.
Speaker 2: It makes me feel it's one of those places. I
Speaker 2: now that I'm almost almost forty, I think about all
Speaker 2: the places. You know, you don't have this regret as
Speaker 2: you went to a neat place to go to college.
Speaker 2: And I love Illinois. I'm not you would die.
Speaker 1: Illinois is awesome. Champagne or Banna is a wonderful college town.
Speaker 2: What are you talking about?
Speaker 1: Really? I don't think that that was that was my
Speaker 1: perception of it.
Speaker 2: No, No, it's Central Illinois. I like Swani's like an
Speaker 2: inspiring place. It's like up in the mountains. It's beautiful.
Speaker 1: It's totally different. Like that's a university.
Speaker 2: I see these campuses of other campuses. Is like, why
Speaker 2: did I spend five years of my life in Champagne.
Speaker 1: I honestly think that's a pretty cool college town.
Speaker 2: I mean, I saved a lot of money. I didn't
Speaker 2: spend any five years of my life in Champagne.
Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, so that's a that's a big deal. Well,
Speaker 1: if you want to see a cool college campus, Williams,
Speaker 1: which is where Taconic, what Teconic is connected to, is
Speaker 1: one of the one of the coolest college campuses out there.
Speaker 2: If you could do it over where would you go
Speaker 2: to college?
Speaker 1: I'd go to the same place.
Speaker 2: Okay, that's amazing. Yeah, definitely, See this is impossible. You
Speaker 2: do this and then your entire life would change if
Speaker 2: you If you did it over right, I would be
Speaker 2: doing this.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure, Yeah, I'm not I'm not sure what
Speaker 1: other choice I would have made. I don't talk about
Speaker 1: it on the podcast much, but I went to Yale
Speaker 1: College for for my undergraduate and I don't introduce this
Speaker 1: information much to people because they start to think I'm
Speaker 1: a certain kind of person. But uh, but I loved
Speaker 1: my college experience, loved that, you know, four years that
Speaker 1: I spent, and I wouldn't trade it for anything. I
Speaker 1: don't think.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I gotta ask this. This is off topic. We've
Speaker 2: we've served off topic here.
Speaker 1: We definitely have.
Speaker 2: What How do IVY leaguers feel about the term public
Speaker 2: ivy because Illinois is the public IVY, but it.
Speaker 1: Sort of seems like what has been deemed a public
Speaker 1: ivy Illinois University of Illinois. I believe that it's a
Speaker 1: great university, but I think it's maybe a little bit
Speaker 1: Isn't it a little bit insulting? Isn't it? Like? I
Speaker 1: don't know, why does the University of Illinois need to
Speaker 1: compare itself to anything?
Speaker 2: Well, that's what we do when we're just a humble
Speaker 2: Midwest state school.
Speaker 1: I think it's sort of like poor Man's Pebble.
Speaker 2: Beach Pacific Grove, right.
Speaker 1: Whereas I think that Pacific Grove is, you know, wonderful
Speaker 1: in its own right and in a lot of ways
Speaker 1: better than Pebble Beach. I don't know that that's sort
Speaker 1: of a harsh take, but uh yeah, I feel completely
Speaker 1: fine about whatever people want to call their universities. I mean,
Speaker 1: I think, having had the experience of going to one
Speaker 1: of these colleges, I know that there are no great
Speaker 1: mysteries about the education that happens there. It's just as
Speaker 1: good and just as bad as the education that happens
Speaker 1: everywhere else. There's no magical thing that occurs at these places.
Speaker 1: And so yeah, I'm completely fine with somebody calling themselves
Speaker 1: a public.
Speaker 2: Ivy back to colleges. Of course, that I may never see,
Speaker 2: that I really do actually want to see is the
Speaker 2: Naval Academy, which Andrew Green did work at. Oh Will.
Speaker 1: That's a good shot a ton of great cool college courses.
Speaker 2: I think there's also probably an interesting if you dove
Speaker 2: into the military based courses, there might be a couple
Speaker 2: interesting ones.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm sure I think there's a cool one at
Speaker 1: West Point, but I'm not quite sure what it is.
Speaker 1: You know. The one that also came to mind for
Speaker 1: me is the Hotchkiss Course. This is not a college.
Speaker 1: This is a private boarding school and in New England,
Speaker 1: and it has it has a rainer course that really
Speaker 1: needs to be brought back to life.
Speaker 2: That's uh. There's this other place in New Hampshire called
Speaker 2: Grand Leiden. It's like a neighborhood course. Have you heard
Speaker 2: of this. It's a little off you never heard of
Speaker 2: Grand Leiden. No, I might be mispronouncing it. It's like
Speaker 2: in a neighborhood, but it's not a private club. But
Speaker 2: it's just for people that live in the neighborhood, I believe.
Speaker 2: And it's like super scruffy, but like some of the
Speaker 2: most that I've seen some pictures, and there are some
Speaker 2: of the craziest Walter Travis Greens I've seen, right, And
Speaker 2: it's just like sitting in this neighborhood. It's like a
Speaker 2: private neighborhood course. Awesome, and it like, I mean, it's
Speaker 2: barely maintained.
Speaker 1: I don't think I've ever heard that before. All right,
Speaker 1: I'm let's move on to a new topic here. We
Speaker 1: could talk about college courses, it seems like in college
Speaker 1: life for another hour and a half, but let's let's
Speaker 1: take a little bit of a turn here and talk
Speaker 1: about the best bang for your buck golf architecture trip.
Speaker 1: This is from Dan Golf's three to five Rounds within decent,
Speaker 1: decent driving distance of each other. Now, we've talked about
Speaker 1: some of these trips pretty extensively, and so we don't
Speaker 1: need to like rehash all of them here. But I'll
Speaker 1: obviously just throw out Grand Rapids right away. Yes, the
Speaker 1: Mike Dereese Trail in Grand Rapids we always always point
Speaker 1: people to. Maine is a good one. We have a
Speaker 1: whole recent podcast about that Ventura County where you can
Speaker 1: go to Rustic Canyon. This is in California, Rustic Canyon,
Speaker 1: Seoul Park. And then you know a couple of kind
Speaker 1: of fun Ventura municipal courses called a Leavis Links and
Speaker 1: and Boinda, Ventura, which don't have the greatest architecture in
Speaker 1: the world, but they have a variety of golf holes,
Speaker 1: they're fun to play, and they're really affordable. I think
Speaker 1: that's a cool one too.
Speaker 2: Nebraska sand Hills, YEP, which we have an entire podcast.
Speaker 1: You can hear more about that from about Matt Rusius
Speaker 1: and Andy Johnson on the Friday Golf podcast.
Speaker 2: What about Maine or what what about Boston?
Speaker 1: So Boston is the other big one that we need
Speaker 1: to let people know about. Franklin Park, George Wright Highland
Speaker 1: Links out on Cape Cod and then go to Old
Speaker 1: Salem Grains in Salem. That is a hell of a trip.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure it like gets much better than that
Speaker 1: in terms of cost and quality.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that one's incredible. I think there's also
Speaker 2: we talked about it a little bit here. It's it
Speaker 2: requires a little bit of driving. But you can do
Speaker 2: this Sawanee Sweetens in Chattanooga. You can go see the course.
Speaker 2: That's the first everybody give. Everybody talks about Tom Doak
Speaker 2: and Bill course. Starting the minimal is a movement. Uh
Speaker 2: Mike Young at the Fields, Oh yeah, built the first
Speaker 2: minimalist golf course. So you can fly into Atlanta. You
Speaker 2: could go down to the fields, or you could go
Speaker 2: up to Swedens. But then you come back down to
Speaker 2: the fields and it's a bit of a haul. But
Speaker 2: then you're driving over and you're playing ach and golf club.
Speaker 2: And I mean, if you get there, you can fly
Speaker 2: in one place, fly out of the other. A lot
Speaker 2: of times I fly into one airport and fly out
Speaker 2: of the other. On trips, you don't always have to
Speaker 2: do round trip. I don't know if I want to
Speaker 2: if I want to put this out into public airwaves.
Speaker 2: But most of the time some rental car companies do not,
Speaker 2: Like if you return it somewhere else, that's not a
Speaker 2: big deal.
Speaker 1: Are you eventually going to get arrested for this?
Speaker 2: No, No, they just are. They'll just charge you one way, right,
Speaker 2: some times it's sometimes you get jammed. But on that,
Speaker 2: like you that's four really good golf courses you could
Speaker 2: throw in, like old Takoa Farms is in that area,
Speaker 2: which could be another one you hit. And then obviously
Speaker 2: there are some ways to garner access at places, especially
Speaker 2: like right now, Like I know, like Broomsedge has some
Speaker 2: like times that you can get if you want to
Speaker 2: go see that that's in in the Camden area of
Speaker 2: South Carolina. So that one requires a little bit more driving,
Speaker 2: but you know it's pretty neat.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's I mean a lot of amazing golf courses.
Speaker 1: Maybe not always bang for your buck, you know, strictly
Speaker 1: define but the Fields for sure is bang for your buck.
Speaker 2: Sawani's bang for your buck, and and Aiken is like
Speaker 2: the bank for your buck twenty five dollar. Now I
Speaker 2: gotta find, you know, I like to use like recommend
Speaker 2: a restaurant recommendations. I was talking with someone this week
Speaker 2: about this, and he was like, you know what, the
Speaker 2: way I like my golf courses are the way I
Speaker 2: like my restaurants. I either want to have like the
Speaker 2: best taco from like just a taco stand or the
Speaker 2: best burger from just a burger stand that's like ten bucks.
Speaker 2: Or I want to have and like so the golf
Speaker 2: version of that is like Ach and Golf Club twenty
Speaker 2: five dollars and you're just gonna be like smiling from
Speaker 2: year to year, all day long. Or I want the
Speaker 2: very best. I want the like awesome architecture, great playing surfaces.
Speaker 2: And he's like, I don't want anything in the middle.
Speaker 1: I kind of get that.
Speaker 2: I think I I kind of align, Like I love
Speaker 2: places like Ache and Golf Club. I would play like
Speaker 2: Aching Golf Club over the quintessential high end public golf
Speaker 2: course in City X designed by Regional architect X. For
Speaker 2: the most part, these are we're speaking of generalities here,
Speaker 2: but I do kind of agree with that. Another one
Speaker 2: you could keep going to is you could go play
Speaker 2: the Muni in Charleston. It'll kick your ass if you
Speaker 2: can you can break part at the media.
Speaker 1: Not an easy golf course by.
Speaker 2: All means you it's gonna test your precision in short game. There.
Speaker 1: All right, I'm gonna throw another topic at you, and
Speaker 1: I'm gonna kind of swerve on it. We got like
Speaker 1: a few questions in a row about how do you
Speaker 1: get started in appreciating golf architecture without completely overwhelming yourself.
Speaker 1: And the way I wanted to maybe answer this question
Speaker 1: with you is by asking you about how you how
Speaker 1: you got started. Maybe this would help people to you know,
Speaker 1: kind of no more about how you got into it,
Speaker 1: and maybe they could do something similar.
Speaker 2: When I think about it, I caddied, Yeah, I think
Speaker 2: that was like how I got into it was like
Speaker 2: a means of wanting to be good at caddying and
Speaker 2: understanding the way where the way different players had to
Speaker 2: play a golf course to maximize their talent. Like I
Speaker 2: used to, you know, like I worked Tuesday afternoons at
Speaker 2: the at the club that I caddied or caddied, I
Speaker 2: worked backroom on Tuesday afternoons and I carried every Tuesday
Speaker 2: morning and Tuesday morning was ladies Day, and it was
Speaker 2: the most I think it probably had the biggest impact
Speaker 2: on me being into golf architecture because if you caddy.
Speaker 2: For lower trajectory players, you have to understand how to
Speaker 2: use angles, and you have to understand the give and
Speaker 2: takes of hitting it here or hearing it there, and
Speaker 2: then being shorter hitters makes them much more precise, like
Speaker 2: the ability. I always used to say to my mom, like,
Speaker 2: you don't have to aim fifty yards away from bunkers,
Speaker 2: Like you're not going to hit it in that thing,
Speaker 2: you know, So like understanding how to get around a
Speaker 2: golf course, I think is like the first the easiest
Speaker 2: thing to understand is looking at a hole and looking
Speaker 2: at the bunkers and look at and then getting on
Speaker 2: the green and feeling the green and understanding why bunkers
Speaker 2: are certain places and how they influence like where you
Speaker 2: might want to be. I think that's the easiest way,
Speaker 2: and then you can dive into like read.
Speaker 1: Yes, right, most people would want to start with the
Speaker 1: on the ground physical knowledge of how golf courses work.
Speaker 1: For good players, this can be complicated, like you were
Speaker 1: introduced to it through watching different kinds of players play
Speaker 1: the game. Because you were a good player, you would
Speaker 1: have played a golf course a certain way, but then
Speaker 1: you saw other people who are very different playing the
Speaker 1: golf course in a completely different way, and that starts
Speaker 1: to give you an appreciation of what good golf architecture
Speaker 1: can do.
Speaker 2: I had a regular loop on Ladies' Day, and it
Speaker 2: was incredible to see how you could improve someone's golf
Speaker 2: game just by getting them around a golf course. It
Speaker 2: was super power. It was super interesting because like it
Speaker 2: was about like just like laying up to certain areas, like, hey,
Speaker 2: there's a fronting bunker the course. Nowood Club has really
Speaker 2: deep bunkers Charles Allison Charles Allison course and tilted greens,
Speaker 2: like pretty severely tilted greens. So a lot of it
Speaker 2: was just like, hey, I know you can hit it
Speaker 2: on the green, but you can't hold the green. It's
Speaker 2: elevated into the air and you have to carry over
Speaker 2: this bunker. Let's just like lay it over here, short
Speaker 2: left and chip up and get out of here. Like
Speaker 2: just understanding that stuff, like if you're not in position,
Speaker 2: get back into position. I think that's like I think
Speaker 2: that's the stuff that like people don't think about. With
Speaker 2: the understanding of golf architecture, that helps every player, Like
Speaker 2: every single player can be so much better if you
Speaker 2: just understand what you're looking at and it helps you.
Speaker 2: Like I think like this is where the analytics community
Speaker 2: will say, oh, golf architecture, Understanding golf architecture doesn't matter. Oh,
Speaker 2: it absolutely does when it comes to like seeing a
Speaker 2: golf course and understanding where to leave shots when you're
Speaker 2: out of position, more so than like getting it up
Speaker 2: the left side to get an angle. You know, that's
Speaker 2: you know fractions better than if you're in the on
Speaker 2: the right, the other side of the fair away. Where
Speaker 2: you save the most shots without a doubt, is understanding
Speaker 2: where to leave balls and under and that there are
Speaker 2: slopes that if you leave in the right spot, you
Speaker 2: can get yourself to where you're chipping back into a
Speaker 2: bowl or you're not not on the wrong side of
Speaker 2: a really severe contour, even though it's like wide open
Speaker 2: green space and short grass. Like just an understanding of
Speaker 2: what you're looking at and what the architect's trying to
Speaker 2: do to you, you know, where they're trying to get
Speaker 2: you to hit it because it looks nice and it
Speaker 2: might look really nice on Google Earth.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree with that. I find it frustrating when
Speaker 1: people assert that it doesn't help you in any way
Speaker 1: because clearly a lot of great players. The greatest players
Speaker 1: have had a very sharp understanding of golf architecture, and
Speaker 1: I think that it can it can help you be
Speaker 1: more aware out there. That's not to say that every
Speaker 1: great player understands architecture intellectually, but I think most great
Speaker 1: players have at least an instinctive grasp of it. Right.
Speaker 2: I think this is like an interesting example in you know,
Speaker 2: some day maybe I'll ask him this at an event.
Speaker 2: But I do think that like if you look at Rory,
Speaker 2: he I think he he got it, really started to
Speaker 2: get into golf architecture in like twenty nineteen ish, but
Speaker 2: his performance at like majors that he used to you know,
Speaker 2: people said he used to not be able to play
Speaker 2: firm courses, you know, And if you start to look
Speaker 2: at how he plays some of these golf courses, like
Speaker 2: he has he understands the architecture a little bit more.
Speaker 2: And it's not necessarily about like whether he's hating driver
Speaker 2: or three iron. But if you watch like a lot
Speaker 2: of times, like where he leaves or like his shots
Speaker 2: around the green, like he's always seemingly in these positions
Speaker 2: where on like you know, if you think back to
Speaker 2: lacc or Pinehurst number two, he was always in advantageous
Speaker 2: places to chip or pitch from versus you don't. I
Speaker 2: don't know. I think it's I think it's just a
Speaker 2: fascinating thing. But I do think he's gotten more consistent
Speaker 2: at at majors since he's kind of dove into golf architecture,
Speaker 2: and I don't I have to ask him. He had
Speaker 2: to answer to one question at Pinehurst that was like,
Speaker 2: it's all about the arc, Like it's all about setting
Speaker 2: up you know. I can't remember exactly what it was.
Speaker 2: It was after the second round, but it's, you know,
Speaker 2: I think that you're totally right, like the highs there
Speaker 2: in like it's just understanding where to leave it in
Speaker 2: the contours. So much about that and what you can
Speaker 2: use and what you can't use, what you can use,
Speaker 2: and what's going to hurt you.
Speaker 1: Well, I'll tell you how I got into it, and
Speaker 1: it's basically from the opposite direction compared to the way
Speaker 1: you got into it. I got into it by reading,
Speaker 1: and the book that introduced me to the idea of
Speaker 1: golf course design was The World Atlas of Golf. My
Speaker 1: dad just brought it home one day, thought I would
Speaker 1: find it interesting, and it's this wonderful book with great
Speaker 1: writing from great golf writers, but also extraordinary illustrations of
Speaker 1: some of the best courses in the world. And I
Speaker 1: just became obsessed with this book, and that's how my
Speaker 1: interest started, and I went from there to other kinds
Speaker 1: of golf architecture books. I remember when Spirit of Saint
Speaker 1: Andrews was republished and how that was kind of exciting, right,
Speaker 1: this is the lost Alistair McKenzie book. Turns out it
Speaker 1: wasn't really that lost, but whatever. I read that and
Speaker 1: I started getting into it that way. I started reading
Speaker 1: some things online when I was younger, and that's how
Speaker 1: I created a kind of knowledge base about golf architecture.
Speaker 1: And then what I had to do after that was
Speaker 1: try to apply it to what was on the ground
Speaker 1: on golf courses because I didn't play that many well
Speaker 1: designed golf courses when I was a kid. I played
Speaker 1: basically the public courses in the town where I grew up.
Speaker 1: But I found ways to get onto the best regarded
Speaker 1: courses that I had access to in Santa Barbara where
Speaker 1: I grew up. That was the Valley Club of Monecito.
Speaker 1: I had no means of getting on that course. But
Speaker 1: for one summer I joined the Santa Barbara Junior Golf Tour,
Speaker 1: and one of the stops on the Santa Barbara Junior
Speaker 1: Golf Tour, just basically the local junior league was the
Speaker 1: Valley Club of Montecito, and that's why I joined that
Speaker 1: little league for that one summer. So I got to
Speaker 1: play that golf course and it was really exciting. And
Speaker 1: then my dad and I went up and played Pas
Speaker 1: Tiempo and Santa Cruz one year. That was sort of
Speaker 1: a special trip and a wonderful experience, and so that's
Speaker 1: kind of my path to it. I started with reading
Speaker 1: and then I went to just trying to find access
Speaker 1: to the best courses that I could, and it wasn't
Speaker 1: much access, but I think I was able to make
Speaker 1: the most of it because of some of the reading
Speaker 1: and knowledge I had acquired through the World Atlas of
Speaker 1: Golf and other books. And so there are many ways
Speaker 1: into it, but honestly, like for somebody who's just starting
Speaker 1: out and just getting interested in it, I would recommend
Speaker 1: the World Atlas of Golf. I think it's a great
Speaker 1: way of orienting yourself. Whether you're forty years old or
Speaker 1: ten years old. You know that that book has appeal
Speaker 1: across ages.
Speaker 2: So readily available, too readily available.
Speaker 1: You know, the new editions, A lot of people don't
Speaker 1: love the new editions. I think the new editions are fine,
Speaker 1: but the old additions with the green cover, those ones
Speaker 1: have the really great illustrations in them, and also writing
Speaker 1: by pat Ward Thomas and Herbert Warren Wynd and some
Speaker 1: true heavy hitters of golf literature, so those ones are
Speaker 1: pretty special. But I think any edition will really do.
Speaker 1: And you can find the old editions very affordably on
Speaker 1: Amazon through the used channels on there and everything.
Speaker 2: Let's take a quick break and then we'll get back
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Speaker 2: It was really really a something that was super easy,
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Speaker 1: Yeah, I had a problem with that screening too.
Speaker 2: What do you think Bandon should do about the Poe invasion?
Speaker 2: The answer could be nothing.
Speaker 1: This is an impossible question to answer. It's such a
Speaker 1: hard situation for context in case people don't know. Basically,
Speaker 1: a lot of the courses that Bandon Dunes are currently
Speaker 1: undergoing a transition from being maybe mostly fescue or in
Speaker 1: some cases partly fescue originally different blends.
Speaker 2: They've grasped things differently over time.
Speaker 1: They've gone to like more and more fescue over time.
Speaker 1: But on the greens especially, there's just a natural transition
Speaker 1: to poa turf. And anybody who's on the West Coast
Speaker 1: especially knows about poa greens. They don't have a great reputation,
Speaker 1: you know that. Think of Pebble Beach's greens on a
Speaker 1: late afternoon at the US Open. They get a little
Speaker 1: bit bumpy, But poet can be a great putting surface.
Speaker 1: It's just different from fescue, and it's not quite at
Speaker 1: Bandon Dune's. The courses just become slower over time. Let's
Speaker 1: bouncy overtime because of this turf transition. But there's basically
Speaker 1: no stopping it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's an extreme, it's an invasive like you're if
Speaker 2: you choose to fight it, you're gonna fight it all
Speaker 2: the time.
Speaker 1: I think they just have to roll with it, right,
Speaker 1: I don't know, are there little things they could do?
Speaker 1: Could could they do like occasional projects, just like regular
Speaker 1: projects year to year close down parts of some courses.
Speaker 2: So I think like it's a it's a I think
Speaker 2: like it's a big question of like what do you
Speaker 2: want the court the courses to be if you want
Speaker 2: them to play in their original lessence. You could think
Speaker 2: of this as a once every It seems like like
Speaker 2: twenty years is kind of the ticking time bomb. Maybe
Speaker 2: it's fifteen years of when when the rubber hit meets
Speaker 2: the road with the poa and you you can't keep
Speaker 2: it out. Just based off of the clock of all
Speaker 2: the courses, I think one of the issues is the
Speaker 2: poe does not hold up to winter well, and that
Speaker 2: then causes problems into your you know more into your
Speaker 2: prime season.
Speaker 1: Well, especially because they play rounds basically year round.
Speaker 2: There exact pact.
Speaker 1: Even when the weather's really bad, even when it's really
Speaker 1: wet out there, people are trampling all over the greens.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's the It is like people go
Speaker 2: to Bandon and they're going to play you.
Speaker 1: And they have my expectations.
Speaker 2: Understandably, I played in the worst weather I've ever played
Speaker 2: in my life with you because we're abandon and what
Speaker 2: else were we going to do? We're gonna go out there.
Speaker 1: We're going to play abandoned trails. Yeah, we were basically
Speaker 1: in a monsoon.
Speaker 2: That was insane. The fall. The fall is going like
Speaker 2: one hundred and ten yards off two.
Speaker 1: It was. It was crazy. I mean there was one
Speaker 1: moment during the round when we all just like stopped
Speaker 1: and took shelter.
Speaker 2: We on what is it on? Uh? On eleven?
Speaker 1: Yeah, after we eleven get one that goes down.
Speaker 2: That's the one that goes down, uh to the to
Speaker 2: the lake.
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, with a little lake by it. And then
Speaker 1: I think I.
Speaker 2: Hit driver threewood three wood. It was into like sheeting grate.
Speaker 1: It was no, yeah, it was. It was pretty wild.
Speaker 2: But anyways, like I think this is like part of
Speaker 2: it is like the winter. It's now a problem because
Speaker 2: of the winter.
Speaker 1: Yeah, But so if.
Speaker 2: You wanted to fix it, if you wanted to go
Speaker 2: back to fescue, here's the issue. You have to regrasp
Speaker 2: every course, and you have to take the golf course
Speaker 2: out of play, each course out of play for a year.
Speaker 2: And if you take each golf course out of play,
Speaker 2: for a year. You lose your powerful marketing message of
Speaker 2: we are come to abandon dunes and tell us which
Speaker 2: course you think is the best.
Speaker 1: Rank the courses. That's what everybody wants to do. Everybody
Speaker 1: wants to go there and have their ranking of the courses.
Speaker 2: If I were the Cizar abandon, which I'm not, that
Speaker 2: would be Mike Kaiser, I'm not going to be. How
Speaker 2: I would approach this is I would start a plan
Speaker 2: and understand that this is how we're going to maintain
Speaker 2: the golf course. I would want it back to fescue.
Speaker 2: That's my personal opinion. I think it's just like the
Speaker 2: essence of what it is. It's links golf on the coast,
Speaker 2: and it's American links golf on the coast, and the
Speaker 2: fescue is the best surface for that. And what I
Speaker 2: would do is I would start closing one course every
Speaker 2: other year for the next ten years, and I would
Speaker 2: get the greens. And you probably don't even have to
Speaker 2: do it at Sheep Ranch at this point.
Speaker 1: Yeah maybe so.
Speaker 2: But like I would just bite the bullet and I
Speaker 2: would start a plan, and we're going to do this,
Speaker 2: and I'm gonna know that I have to take a
Speaker 2: course out for a year every fifteen to twenty years. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and that's just the way if.
Speaker 1: We want just continual cycle. Yes, it's just just hard
Speaker 1: to accept that.
Speaker 2: You know, it's just the ongoing it's an operational cost
Speaker 2: of it. And you know it's too bad because people
Speaker 2: but like if they add the sixth course, it's gonna
Speaker 2: be really hard to play all the courses abandon.
Speaker 1: That's true. You'll have to stay there for.
Speaker 2: In like shorties, shorties, you know, yeah, and preserve like
Speaker 2: there's a lot. It's hard to do that all on
Speaker 2: one trip as it is.
Speaker 1: Now, right, Yeah, Well, it's it's a tough situation. It's inevitable.
Speaker 2: Is similar to the pebble situation.
Speaker 1: It is, right, And and you have kind of similar climates, right,
Speaker 1: not exactly the same. Oregon's is much harsher.
Speaker 2: Are you but are you suggesting that that that that uh,
Speaker 2: Monterey in north is part of the Pacific Northwest?
Speaker 1: Just walked right into that one just walked right into it,
Speaker 1: damn it.
Speaker 2: For those that aren't familiar, I have a long standing
Speaker 2: belief that that uh, particularly just north.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And and he has his own geography of
Speaker 1: the he believes that I don't know what you believe
Speaker 1: that's that it's all Central California.
Speaker 2: And we're all Pacific.
Speaker 1: We're a Central California is part of the Pacific Northwest. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I forgot what I was gonna say.
Speaker 2: Oregons we have similar climates.
Speaker 1: Or Oregon's wet, you know, Monterey can get foggy and
Speaker 1: cold and wet. You know, it's they're not great places
Speaker 1: for avoiding POA. You're just gonna get it right. And
Speaker 1: and so you're fighting against nature. And I guess if
Speaker 1: they want the ideal playing conditions, that's what they have
Speaker 1: to do. They just have to go to war with nature.
Speaker 1: But we're just learning. I guess that fescue doesn't do
Speaker 1: super well in a coastal climate like the southern coast
Speaker 1: of Oregon, Whereas if you go to Gamble Sands or
Speaker 1: Sand Valley, the fescue there is doing amazingly well.
Speaker 2: Right, Sand Valleys, sand Valley's playing might be the best
Speaker 2: playing surfaces in America.
Speaker 1: They're unbelievable, truely unbelievable.
Speaker 2: You know, Like just I do think like a course
Speaker 2: that goes way under the radar. And I was I
Speaker 2: had conversations this week about this like just how intertwined
Speaker 2: maintenance and golf architecture are. The Loop at Forest Students
Speaker 2: does not get nearly enough respect because it's got like
Speaker 2: incredible design, but the playing surfaces are as good as
Speaker 2: you're going to find. It is firm and fast rescue
Speaker 2: like it is.
Speaker 1: Michigan and Kingsley's playing surfaces are well regarded as well,
Speaker 1: you know.
Speaker 2: But like Forest Students, like the Loop, the ball just
Speaker 2: rockets and they have these awesome contours. It's relatively flat
Speaker 2: like that is to me, probably the closest to playing
Speaker 2: in Scotland that you can get in America on like
Speaker 2: really crispy, firm turf. Is is Force Students. I think
Speaker 2: like the Sand Valley's a little bit different golf because
Speaker 2: you get more elevation out there, you know, it's a
Speaker 2: little bit more dramatic golf than your Scotland Scotland golf.
Speaker 2: But like to me, God, yeah, Sand Valley and Forced Students,
Speaker 2: the fescue is amazing.
Speaker 1: Remarkable, And these courses are starting to age a little
Speaker 1: bit and we're seeing how they age, and I think
Speaker 1: it's probably going to start to inform some future decisions
Speaker 1: about where big developers build golf. Courses right, because do
Speaker 1: you really want to build a links like golf course
Speaker 1: in a setting where it's so difficult to have links
Speaker 1: like turf. I think that that's going to be a
Speaker 1: real question that the Kaisers and others have to answer
Speaker 1: in the coming years. How are you going to make
Speaker 1: the turf great fifteen twenty years from now? And that's
Speaker 1: something that we've seen kind of proven out with Sand Valley. Well,
Speaker 1: at least so far. Sand Valley's not that old years old. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so they demand it's much older. We should keep that
Speaker 1: in mind, but it is. It is such a different
Speaker 1: experience and it gives that resort kind of a new status.
Speaker 2: An interesting other turf course in Turfin and great architecture
Speaker 2: that I always think about is Gray Walls. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: they they.
Speaker 1: Have an extreme setting right extreme.
Speaker 2: North and in a ton of car traffic. It's like
Speaker 2: a you can walk the golf course. I walked the
Speaker 2: golf course. I was fine. I didn't I wasn't sore
Speaker 2: or anything. It's a big walk, but you can walk
Speaker 2: the golf course. But they have a ton of car traffic.
Speaker 2: But what they have they have a bluegrass fescue blend
Speaker 2: and all their approaches. So the most important place to
Speaker 2: have fescue to me is in the approaches, because there's
Speaker 2: nothing worse than having like a green that's firm and
Speaker 2: then an approach that doesn't receive a running shot.
Speaker 1: Well, it's like what they do at Rustic Canyon that's
Speaker 1: so smart, where they have a different grass in the
Speaker 1: approaches so that you can the shots. The architecture is
Speaker 1: making fun. Yeah, yeah, it's not Cocullar you it's what
Speaker 1: Riviera should do, but they're too worried about aesthetics there.
Speaker 2: But anyways, so at at Gray Walls they have the
Speaker 2: fescue and like, this is something I'd wonder with Bandon,
Speaker 2: could you get fescue in the run up because Poe's
Speaker 2: causing problems in like you can't hit link shots because
Speaker 2: it's getting into the approaches.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, it's an interesting idea.
Speaker 2: Because could you get that. I just started Childress Hall,
Speaker 2: a new tom Doak course in Texas. They're doing fescue
Speaker 2: approaches and they have the I think they have Bermuda.
Speaker 2: I think they have bent greens. If I recall fescue
Speaker 2: approaches in Bermuda, fairways.
Speaker 1: Interesting and that's in an odd setting for grasses too, right,
Speaker 1: they're pretty much in the transition zone there, right, the
Speaker 1: transition zone between warm season and cold season grasses. Yes,
Speaker 1: and so they can kind of have that combination.
Speaker 2: But like thinking about like what grass is like, Okay,
Speaker 2: fescue is going to be hard to do to fight
Speaker 2: on the green. Maybe we give up the green as
Speaker 2: poa and everybody can, but let's keep our fescue approaches
Speaker 2: so people can hit the link shots into the green. Yeah,
Speaker 2: Because that's what you want to go to abandon and
Speaker 2: do is you want to hit the shots that land
Speaker 2: short and bounce up. You want to have the ability
Speaker 2: when you're off the green to hit that seemingly frictionless
Speaker 2: six iron, bump and run you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, that's what you really want to do at
Speaker 1: Old McDonald. Right, that's the whole course there, and so
Speaker 1: if you lose that, it's it's sort of a bummer,
Speaker 1: all right. Can I ask you another question here? Yes,
Speaker 1: this is this question kind of made me laugh. Bricky Legumes,
Speaker 1: in your opinion, what is the worst golf hole on
Speaker 1: a superb slash top twenty US course.
Speaker 2: Man, I'm going to make some enemies here.
Speaker 1: Should we go nice on this? One.
Speaker 2: No, no, I let me see, do you what do
Speaker 2: you want?
Speaker 1: I think you want my immediate immediate idea that comes
Speaker 1: to mind. And I want to state for the record
Speaker 1: that that I lived in Pebble Beach for five years,
Speaker 1: New York, and I loved it, and I love that
Speaker 1: golf course, and I truly think that it is and
Speaker 1: can be. Not that it is, but it can be
Speaker 1: a top twenty golf course in America. And those holes
Speaker 1: along the ocean are extraordinary. And you know, arguing that
Speaker 1: if the ocean weren't there, it wouldn't be as well
Speaker 1: regarded a golf courses pointless because the ocean is there,
Speaker 1: and there's so many wonderful things about that course, and
Speaker 1: it is truly near and dear to my heart. But
Speaker 1: the fifteenth hole at Pebble Beach.
Speaker 2: I thought you were going to go with, what about five?
Speaker 1: Well five is more like I'm disappointed in you. You know,
Speaker 1: you wasted an opportunity, You hired the wrong architect, you
Speaker 1: had the wrong idea, you ruined a great routing sequence
Speaker 1: on the course. There are all those reasons, but ultimately five,
Speaker 1: the hole along the cliffs that Jack Nicholas added a
Speaker 1: while back, you know, it used to play inland now
Speaker 1: plays along the cliffs. Is not really on its own
Speaker 1: a bad golf hole, and it's it's certainly right next
Speaker 1: to the ocean and all that's kind of nice. But
Speaker 1: the fifteenth hole a Pebble Beach is just there's nothing
Speaker 1: going on there. Can you tell me something that that
Speaker 1: I should like about the fifteenth hole at Pebble Beach?
Speaker 2: I got nothing.
Speaker 1: It's just I mean, for a course of that stature,
Speaker 1: I think a whole like that is just it's just,
Speaker 1: you know, objectionable.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can't think of anything I like about it.
Speaker 1: It's really just nothing going on. I'm not even sure
Speaker 1: what it was originally. I'm not sure that it was
Speaker 1: a great hole originally, but certainly none of the changes
Speaker 1: that they've made since then have have improved it any
Speaker 1: So that that holds a problem.
Speaker 2: I'll just go I'll go differently. I've kind of like,
Speaker 2: I'm kind of just tired of her dance.
Speaker 1: Are you tired of like pale imitations of the Dan
Speaker 1: or just do you think it's like an overused concept
Speaker 1: in general?
Speaker 2: I think I'm just tired of them.
Speaker 1: Don't even like the one at Chicago.
Speaker 2: No, I like that one. That one's really good. It's fine,
Speaker 2: I play it well, everybody hates it. I also have
Speaker 2: like an epic chip in from right this year, so
Speaker 2: I think I like it.
Speaker 1: You know, it's not a very good reason.
Speaker 2: It isn't it's a terrible reason, but like I'll never
Speaker 2: forget the shot. It was like the best shot, maybe
Speaker 2: the best shot hit all year.
Speaker 1: Well, you're tired of ra dance and where you go?
Speaker 2: So I'm going to go with the second hole at
Speaker 2: Fisher's Island. I think it's the worst hole on the
Speaker 2: golf course.
Speaker 1: Interesting choice.
Speaker 2: I think it's just like not a good radan. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's it's just like kind of there. I love Fisher's Island,
Speaker 2: all right. I love the golf course, and like here's
Speaker 2: the thing I'm I'm like okay with, of course having
Speaker 2: a hole that might sting now.
Speaker 1: And I'm actually kind of okay with a whole like
Speaker 1: the fifteenth at Pebble if it if there weren't other
Speaker 1: problems with the course, if you're transitioning from one great
Speaker 1: hole to another and you kind of have a chill
Speaker 1: hole in between, okay, that's fine.
Speaker 2: And the second spine it's I think like one of
Speaker 2: the things I think I'd like to see a golf
Speaker 2: course that was built with just eighteen par fours.
Speaker 1: This is uh, you know, your your par five trutherism
Speaker 1: is a real twist in your golf philosophy. You said
Speaker 1: in the last podcast that you just you either don't
Speaker 1: think par fives exist or don't think they should exist.
Speaker 1: Now we're talking about all par fours. Are we applying
Speaker 1: the same thing to par three's? We should? I mean
Speaker 1: to take them out of the equation.
Speaker 2: No, I like par three's. I do like like they're
Speaker 2: they're like, but they're just execution tests For the most part.
Speaker 2: I struggle with the idea of like is their strategy
Speaker 2: in Part threees.
Speaker 1: Well, I think the strategy is different pin positions and
Speaker 1: how much you take on right. The design virtue of
Speaker 1: a good Part three is that it creates interesting pin
Speaker 1: positions where you can make risk reward decisions about what
Speaker 1: line you're taking at the green.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there are execution tests, right, and.
Speaker 1: I think so I think there's a choice in there.
Speaker 1: You're choosing the line that you're taking, right. If you
Speaker 1: take on too much then you might get punished.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's like I think you can. You
Speaker 2: can be a little bit more bold too, because it's
Speaker 2: like you're hitting from a flat lie off a T right.
Speaker 2: So some of the stuff you can do on a
Speaker 2: par three you can't do on a part four because
Speaker 2: you are you You're you're giving a player a flat
Speaker 2: lie off a T right, So that immediately allows you
Speaker 2: to have a little bit more going on in the
Speaker 2: approach around the green with hazards everything. But I mean,
Speaker 2: like par four's I think like a part three would
Speaker 2: be fun if you could use the entire tea box,
Speaker 2: Like if I had the option to use the all
Speaker 2: the way right or all the way left. I'd like
Speaker 2: to think that Like one of the things I think
Speaker 2: that I can gain an advantage of over a lot
Speaker 2: of players is just like the right place where I
Speaker 2: tea up on every hole I think, I think about
Speaker 2: where I'm going to put my tea in the ground
Speaker 2: to best get to a hole or best get to
Speaker 2: a spot in the fairway, best to you know, help
Speaker 2: shape the shape of shot that I'm hitting on a
Speaker 2: daily basis. But like with a par three, So anyways,
Speaker 2: what I like about part fours is like that nature
Speaker 2: of it. There's like this and that like par three's
Speaker 2: are such a guided like you're here and you hit
Speaker 2: it there, and there's so little optionality in it. Right,
Speaker 2: So I guess like I think, like as I've started
Speaker 2: to think about it, I've been thinking about this a
Speaker 2: lot lately. Is that like I think like par three's
Speaker 2: are the least dynamicals in golf but in general, but
Speaker 2: they're the hardest ones to build dynamic nature into because
Speaker 2: they're like you're hitting off a tee and you're hitting
Speaker 2: this spot.
Speaker 1: Well, you know what what?
Speaker 2: Part three are revered? People take pictures of them because they're.
Speaker 1: Popular, right, they're well, it's it's the best opportunity for
Speaker 1: an architect to create prettiness on a golf course really
Speaker 1: is a par three because you're just creating one picture.
Speaker 1: You're creating one one painting there and and so you
Speaker 1: you can have some control over the composition in a
Speaker 1: way that you don't when players are just sort of
Speaker 1: going where they go on a hole. And so yeah,
Speaker 1: they're they're shallower maybe in that way and not as intricate.
Speaker 1: But I think the main argument for them is just strategy,
Speaker 1: because I'm imagined I didn't mean to say strategy. The
Speaker 1: argument for them is variety. Yeah, because if you're hypothetical
Speaker 1: golf course with eighteen par fours, the danger of that
Speaker 1: course is that it that it feels repetitive.
Speaker 2: Well we should try threes, break away, should try it?
Speaker 1: Why not, you know, just for the sake of variety
Speaker 1: across golf courses as opposed to within the golf course.
Speaker 2: Argue, my favorite golf course in the world has sixteen
Speaker 2: par fours.
Speaker 1: What's that?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 1: Sure? Yeah, Well, you know, this is something funny that
Speaker 1: about like pre twentieth century architecture is that par three's
Speaker 1: weren't a thing really. I mean, I guess kind of
Speaker 1: a thing. Maybe they had really short holes. But you know,
Speaker 1: if you think about Saint Andrews, for instance, there are
Speaker 1: two par three's there and the rest of the holes
Speaker 1: are just long holes.
Speaker 2: That's one of my favorite courses too.
Speaker 1: Go maybe you just don't like threes.
Speaker 2: One of the best part threes in the world, I
Speaker 2: think is the sixteenth at Cyprus. There's actually a real consideration. Yeah, right,
Speaker 2: Like I think if I like there's you get there
Speaker 2: and there's like the novelty of going for it. But
Speaker 2: I think if I played there a lot, I would
Speaker 2: just start laying up. Yeah, and unless it was like
Speaker 2: a calm day and I felt like I was swinging
Speaker 2: really good man, because it's just like such an insanely
Speaker 2: hard shot.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but you can't convince yourself to lay up. Maybe
Speaker 1: maybe that is like a playing playing once in your
Speaker 1: life kind of thing where that's what I'm saying. I
Speaker 1: cannot lay up. But if you, yeah, if you played
Speaker 1: there regularly, I don't know if I would. Even even
Speaker 1: if I played there regularly, I wouldn't be able to
Speaker 1: restrain myself from going for it. It's so tempting.
Speaker 2: I played at a club that had a crazy green.
Speaker 2: It's it's a public course now it's Calium at country club.
Speaker 2: It's on the south side of Chicago. I mean it
Speaker 2: had so many different iterations of routings and what number
Speaker 2: it was, but it was the fourteenth hole when I
Speaker 2: played there a lot, and it was like so severely
Speaker 2: sloped front to back that if you got anywhere pin high,
Speaker 2: it was like a disaster. You were you were going
Speaker 2: to have to like hit in a miraculous putt to
Speaker 2: two putt because the green had so much pitch in it.
Speaker 2: And I would regularly lay up. I would lay up,
Speaker 2: I'd hit a club. I literally would hit a club
Speaker 2: that would get me, that would, by no means get
Speaker 2: me past the front edge of the green.
Speaker 1: Right, didn't Billy Casper do something like this at wingfoot? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, he did on the third hole, okay, right, yeah,
Speaker 2: And and so like to me, that's a par three
Speaker 2: that has some strategy in the sense of like, yeah,
Speaker 2: like it's funny. I played there like a million times.
Speaker 2: It was the only hole in my life I never burdied.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I will say this, most of my favorite par
Speaker 1: threes are either really short or really long. Yeah, They're
Speaker 1: the ones that push at the edges of the category.
Speaker 1: Because just a one hundred and fifty to one hundred
Speaker 1: and seventy yard par three, it can be really cool.
Speaker 1: But if you're just hitting a mid iron, or if
Speaker 1: you're a stronger player a short iron, I'm not sure
Speaker 1: how much can really how much how much excitement there
Speaker 1: can be in that.
Speaker 2: Short par threes I do have like a slight As
Speaker 2: I've thought about them more, I think they're I think
Speaker 2: a lot of them kind of stink in terms of playability,
Speaker 2: Like a low trajectory player has like no chance.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because the way they're often defended is by having
Speaker 1: a small green surrounded by hazards.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and like there's no way to stop land it
Speaker 2: on and stop it close.
Speaker 1: M Yeah, I kind of agree with that. But I mean,
Speaker 1: if you look at the Sandbox for instance, to go
Speaker 1: back to sand Valley, those are basically all kind of
Speaker 1: shortish part threes. But there are so many different versions
Speaker 1: of the short par three that they found in that course,
Speaker 1: and maybe those can be kind of some more models
Speaker 1: for how you could make a short part three interesting.
Speaker 2: So I guess I'm jokingly asking should par fives or
Speaker 2: par threes even exist? Should we just go to just
Speaker 2: a straight par four game.
Speaker 1: Let's put that out there to the listeners. They can
Speaker 1: they can discuss. They can discuss it on Blue Sky.
Speaker 2: Or I Take It or Instagram or anywhere.
Speaker 1: You want the social media platform of your choice. You have.
Speaker 1: You have choices into society.
Speaker 2: I don't. I can't do all of them. There's too
Speaker 2: many of them.
Speaker 1: I know. It's way. It's it's you have to make
Speaker 1: a choice, you do. Yeah, what kind of person are you? Andy?
Speaker 2: Oh, that's a terrible person.
Speaker 1: It's a yeah, how about just withdraw YouTube.
Speaker 2: Comments PJ in his in our comments, YouTube comments.
Speaker 1: PJ loves the YouTube comments. That's that's his that's his
Speaker 1: natural environment. In this discussion of the worst holes on
Speaker 1: the best courses, By the way, I think Riviera got
Speaker 1: off easy. I'm just gonna throw that out there. I
Speaker 1: think there's some candidates at Riviera truly a top twenty
Speaker 1: golf course. But oh boy, with oh god, I don't
Speaker 1: even know. Maybe maybe maybe the current state of eleven.
Speaker 1: I mean, come on, that's a great golf hole. But
Speaker 1: my goodness, they have they have abused that poor thing.
Speaker 2: What about if you combined one fair away with four
Speaker 2: green surrounds green in the surrounds.
Speaker 1: Okay, let me think about this.
Speaker 2: If you took one fair away, you hit a t
Speaker 2: shot on one, and then the pro shot was the
Speaker 2: approach into four?
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, four being the ridan actually another another another,
Speaker 1: and that with the sticky cocillo approach that nobody can
Speaker 1: get through in the overly fast screen that nobody can hold.
Speaker 1: That would defend it.
Speaker 2: To be fair. I didn't say I disliked for Dance.
Speaker 2: I'm just tired of them. I've reached I've reached a
Speaker 2: tired point.
Speaker 1: Andy Johnson, Dan hater. Are we going to wrap up
Speaker 1: with that?
Speaker 2: I think that's it. I think this is this has
Speaker 2: reached its conclusion. Mark. Thank you to everybody for the questions. Garrett,
Speaker 2: thanks for jumping on, of course and doing this. This
Speaker 2: is a fun week of pods. It as always PJ
Speaker 2: Big thanks to PJ Clark editing producing this podcast. He's
Speaker 2: a he's a rock star.
Speaker 1: Listen, we're recording this kind of late right now, so honestly,
Speaker 1: send PJ a nice note, like we love you, PJ.
Speaker 2: If you haven't yet, check out Club TFE. It's our membership.
Speaker 2: We uh put a lot golf course architecture stuff up there.
Speaker 2: Garrett's Garrett's a maniac there. He's writing like sometimes like
Speaker 2: three thousand words a week and there regularly regularly above
Speaker 2: a thousand about golf architecture. And then we have, you know,
Speaker 2: we just released our events slate, as we talked about
Speaker 2: in part one of this podcast. If you're a clip
Speaker 2: TFE member, you get early access. It's one hundred and
Speaker 2: twenty dollars for the year, and it really helps us
Speaker 2: continue to grow and continue to do more architecture coverage,
Speaker 2: which I think I think everybody wants more of so
Speaker 2: thank you guys, and thanks for listening to another episode
Speaker 2: of the Friday Golf Podcast.