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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: Something out of a kind of gothic hora, and they

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Speaker 2: would just dumbfound it.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the

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Speaker 1: podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career,

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Speaker 1: research for my many audio and book projects has taken

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Speaker 1: me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down

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Speaker 1: with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers,

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Speaker 1: and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true

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Speaker 1: crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both

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Speaker 1: good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the

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Speaker 1: unpublished deta tells behind their stories. Almost forty years ago,

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Speaker 1: a brutal murder on Valentine's Day shook the country of

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Speaker 1: Wales when a twenty year old was murdered in a

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Speaker 1: dark corner of Cardiff's infamous Tiger Bay area. The police

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Speaker 1: launched an investigation, but did they arrest the wrong people

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Speaker 1: because they were desperate to close the case. Author Carrie

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Speaker 1: Jackson tells me the story from her book The Boy

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Speaker 1: from Tiger Bay. Okay, this happens in eighty eight. Let's

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Speaker 1: start with what Cardiff is like. Maybe tell us what

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Speaker 1: it's like in relation to England or you know, even London.

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Speaker 1: Whatever you think will set the stage.

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Speaker 3: For this, Okay.

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Speaker 2: So it's really interesting because people here have a joke

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Speaker 2: if you say it's on America and where they say

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Speaker 2: to you where you're from, and you say, I'm from Wales,

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Speaker 2: and they'll say, is that in England? You know they

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Speaker 2: put the Americana. So that's a real kind of a

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Speaker 2: kind of bond that you might tell you Hara. It's

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Speaker 2: completely separate country that's kind of on the side of England,

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Speaker 2: like Stland and Northern Ireland. It has a very distinct

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Speaker 2: culture away from England. It has an extremely vibrant language,

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Speaker 2: the Welsh language, and it's an ancient land that's known

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Speaker 2: as Cumery and it is perhaps you know, it's kind

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Speaker 2: of the origins of Merlin and King Arthur. So it's

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Speaker 2: very it's a huge, hugely distinct culture from England. And

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Speaker 2: it's the name to my name is a Welsh name,

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Speaker 2: Carrie Cer, and that many people when I worked in

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Speaker 2: England would pronounce that Seri or cherry, you know, for instance,

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Speaker 2: it's just they get very you know, it's like if

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Speaker 2: you've ever looked at Gaelic, you know this is very

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Speaker 2: distinct from English and so but Cardiff is the capital city.

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Speaker 2: And what happened in Cardiff, and the reason that if

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Speaker 2: we had been speaking a few generations ago, certainly towards

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Speaker 2: you know, say, one hundred years ago, Cardiff would have

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Speaker 2: been one of the most famous places on Earth. And

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Speaker 2: the reason being is it's from this entirely settlement right

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Speaker 2: on the South Wales coast, from a basically a kind

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Speaker 2: of clutch of houses in the middle of marshland to

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Speaker 2: the busiest, one of the busiest, and I think at

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Speaker 2: one stage it out did New York, one of the

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Speaker 2: busiest docklands in the world, unimaginably busy. This was the

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Speaker 2: hub of the Industrial Revolution, the minerals, the coal, iron

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Speaker 2: and steel of the South Wales valleys basically a fueled

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Speaker 2: Britain's Empire and the Industrial Revolution. So this was at

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Speaker 2: a time of an imaginable influence, you know, around the world,

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Speaker 2: and this was the kind of crucible of it all.

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Speaker 2: And so all the coal that would come down from

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Speaker 2: the valleys as a series of hills in South Wales

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Speaker 2: would funnel down to this dockland and teeming and imaginably busy,

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Speaker 2: and it had its own stock exchange that was second

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Speaker 2: only to the to London itself and in to the

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Speaker 2: docks filled and nationalities from almost every conceivable country in

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Speaker 2: the world. And what was distinctive about Cardiff as opposed

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Speaker 2: to Liverpool the London docklands, you know, most of the

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Speaker 2: British docklands were very busy at that time.

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Speaker 3: Was this community, which is easy.

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Speaker 2: To romanticize, but its actual fact that this community developed

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Speaker 2: that was known for its tolerance, and it was arguably

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Speaker 2: Britain's first, certainly African community because of the Somali Semen

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Speaker 2: that came over. But soon it was a melting pot

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Speaker 2: of nationalities. At one point I used to be friendly

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Speaker 2: with the kind of local historian the oracle on that area.

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Speaker 2: Fifty seven different nationalities eventually settled their living cheek by

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Speaker 2: jowl and they were intermarry so local women, so that

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Speaker 2: there was this kind of Welsh matriarch. But then all

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Speaker 2: these nationalities living cheek by jowel in the kind of

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Speaker 2: living quarters of the docklands, in this really kind of

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Speaker 2: in racial harmony, and that was mainly because there was

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Speaker 2: such fury from the rest of the city at these incomers.

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Speaker 2: It was racism that that kind of bonded this community together.

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Speaker 2: They were the ones on whose backs the fortunes were made.

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Speaker 2: I mean imaginable amounts of money were made from these

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Speaker 2: from the stocklands on cold deals. The first ever million

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Speaker 2: pound check was written in the coal exchange, the stock

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Speaker 2: exchange in that docklands. So this was a hugely historic

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Speaker 2: place and incredibly famous. It became known as Tiger Bay,

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Speaker 2: which was the once kind of a generic term used

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Speaker 2: by seamen for rough sailor towns, you know, kind of everywhere,

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Speaker 2: but it had it earned sole use of that term

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Speaker 2: Tiger Bay, and that was because the stories of the

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Speaker 2: kind of the murder, the mayhem, the real kind of

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Speaker 2: rough and tumble of all kind of ports, you know,

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Speaker 2: that's what they're there. People get off ships after months

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Speaker 2: and months at sea, and or how let's lose. But

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Speaker 2: this community that was kind of a part geographically and

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Speaker 2: certainly culturally from that kind of melee at the dock

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Speaker 2: front grew into this fabled community where there was literally

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Speaker 2: intermarriage and there was no questions asked. But that was

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Speaker 2: the beginnings of this ghetto which it later became as

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Speaker 2: a scapegoat.

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Speaker 3: This was out of step with the British way of life.

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Speaker 2: It kind of was a much more egalitarian, much more unrepressed,

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Speaker 2: known for its music and its kind of cuisine, very

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Speaker 2: quite bohemian a lot. There was great restaurants there and

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Speaker 2: cafe culture, and so it was kind of out of

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Speaker 2: step with this really kind of you know, buttoned up,

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Speaker 2: kind of Victorian Britain, which is where.

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Speaker 3: It started and then moved along into the century.

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Speaker 2: So it was kind of its card was marked as

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Speaker 2: a scapegoat community from that point on.

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Speaker 1: Really, before we talk about Lynette White, let's talk about

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Speaker 1: her profession. What was it like to be a sex

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Speaker 1: worker in nineteen eighty eight in that Tiger Bay area.

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Speaker 2: By nineteen eighty eight, this is the whole thing, the

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Speaker 2: Docklands with the with apart from the war, but with

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Speaker 2: the fall of coal, the Docklands had become a ghost town.

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Speaker 2: This fantastic if you can imagine a movie set of

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Speaker 2: the most extraordinary architecture, the most beautiful, expensive architecture literally

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Speaker 2: just chained up like a ghost town.

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Speaker 3: But the community or the.

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Speaker 2: Ensuing generations of Tiger Base still lived in an area

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Speaker 2: that was a concrete jungle because it had been completely

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Speaker 2: raised a lot of this beautiful architecture and then a

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Speaker 2: big what we call a council of State, which is

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Speaker 2: basically welfare I guess in the state, but basically this

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Speaker 2: big concrete jungle of tenements and kind of masonets, and

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Speaker 2: it was then certainly the top of the area.

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Speaker 3: It was designated as the city's red light.

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Speaker 2: District, but it was kind of the old fashioned kind

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Speaker 2: of sex work. And by that I mean certainly there's

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Speaker 2: this kind of trope that in the seventies and eighties

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Speaker 2: that there would be the woman's you know, standing under

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Speaker 2: a red light on a street corner smoking a cigarette,

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Speaker 2: kind of you know, gesturing at cars passing by, and

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Speaker 2: that was kind of what it was like. There was

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Speaker 2: a group of pubs that were just there was there

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Speaker 2: was a bridge that you'd be in the city center.

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Speaker 2: You'd go under the bridge, which is just saying you're

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Speaker 2: under the bridge entering what was Tiger Bay officially called Buttetown,

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Speaker 2: and there would be the kind of women outside the

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Speaker 2: pub smoking cigarettes and they weren't run by pimps they

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Speaker 2: would manage them largely, they would manage themselves, and there

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Speaker 2: would be a number of older women that would kind

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Speaker 2: of look after the younger women. You can't use the

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Speaker 2: words innocent, but it was a very you know, kind

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Speaker 2: of unsophisticated sex trade. Really and literally it would be

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Speaker 2: men driving past, winding their windows down.

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Speaker 1: Tell me about our victim, Lynette White. I know she

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Speaker 1: was twenty years old. Can you give me some background

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Speaker 1: that tells us how she ended up here.

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Speaker 2: Is a very sensitive subject. The amount that Lynette White's

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Speaker 2: family has suffered as a result, not only of her

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Speaker 2: brutal death, but what happened subsequently, unimaginable pain that they

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Speaker 2: went through. They have never been able to grieve. I mean,

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Speaker 2: first and foremost, they didn't get justice until many, many

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Speaker 2: years later. So Lynette was a very pleasant girl. She

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Speaker 2: was a Cardiff girl. She's the same age as me.

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Speaker 2: We grew up in the city at the same time.

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Speaker 2: Her family were originally from the Docklands, like many Cardiff

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Speaker 2: families had the origins in the Docklands, and she had

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Speaker 2: moved to a different suburb of the city when she

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Speaker 2: was a kind of child. Her parents had split up

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Speaker 2: when she was very young, and her father subsequently remarried

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Speaker 2: and she moved with her father and a stepmother to

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Speaker 2: a different suburb of the city, and their stepmother had

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Speaker 2: another daughter and a son, so those will anette sibling.

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Speaker 2: And Annette was known as a very pleasant girl. She

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Speaker 2: was this keen horsewoman.

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Speaker 3: She was very pretty tomboyish, but you know, kind of unremarkable.

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Speaker 2: At school, Chatty, you know, just a lovely teenage girl.

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Speaker 2: You know, she was kind of gutsy, but she started

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Speaker 2: getting into trouble. I think there was problems at home

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Speaker 2: and teenagers, I learned from myself, you kind of enter

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Speaker 2: a new phage and anyway, whatever arguments were happening at home.

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Speaker 2: She left school at sixteen, and she had kind of

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Speaker 2: run away from home a bit, you know, that had

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Speaker 2: kind of escalated, and I think there'd been a couple

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Speaker 2: of stints in which she'd been in local authority care.

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Speaker 2: Because if you truanted from school in those days, I mean,

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Speaker 2: this is another side of this story, is how the

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Speaker 2: British system treat children that were kind of unruly is shocking.

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Speaker 2: And if you were found to be truanted from school,

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Speaker 2: then you would get taken into care for a period

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Speaker 2: of time and the stories that have come out of

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Speaker 2: the care of that time in this area and you

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Speaker 2: know elsewhere. Yeah, I mean that is another story. They've

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Speaker 2: not been good. But anyway, at sixteen, she left school

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Speaker 2: and she moved into the city center. She had a boyfriend,

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Speaker 2: and she had drifted into sex work. Basically, she'd worked

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Speaker 2: in a different area of the city which was just

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Speaker 2: further along from where she was on the night she

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Speaker 2: was picked up and murdered. But yeah, her life had

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Speaker 2: kind of just drifted into that way. The relationship that

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Speaker 2: she was in had broken down, and she was desperately

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Speaker 2: This is a woman who's desperately looking for love. I mean,

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Speaker 2: she was a really full of life girl. And she

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Speaker 2: met Stephen Miller who was from London whose brother was

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Speaker 2: living in the area. Stephen Miller was from Brixton in

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Speaker 2: South London and he'd come to Cardiff and they met

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Speaker 2: Lynette had met him, and eventually he moved down to

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Speaker 2: Cardiff and they became girlfriend and boyfriend and lived in.

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Speaker 3: A house share a couple of miles away.

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Speaker 2: And so she was part of this sex scene and

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Speaker 2: she used to take clients.

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Speaker 3: This is how it worked.

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Speaker 2: You'd get a price if you wanted to do something

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Speaker 2: on a side street or in a car, and if

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Speaker 2: you didn't want it to go somewhere that was if

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Speaker 2: it was raining, which often here in South Wales, you

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Speaker 2: would go to a house and you'd pay a little

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Speaker 2: bit more. And so Lenette had an arrangement with a

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Speaker 2: friend of hers who later became central to the case,

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Speaker 2: that she would take them a mile or so down

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Speaker 2: the road to a kind of empty flat that had

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Speaker 2: no electricity, that was dark and dank. Anyway, she'd take

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Speaker 2: them down there, and on the fourteenth of February nineteen

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Speaker 2: eighty eight she picked up a client and she was

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Speaker 2: found the next day in that same flat with up

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Speaker 2: to nearly seventy staboinds.

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Speaker 3: It was a brutal attack.

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Speaker 2: Her throat was cut so severely that she was nearly decapitated.

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Speaker 2: There had been an attempt to remove her hands. I mean,

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Speaker 2: this was a frenzied ripperstyle attack.

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Speaker 3: It was gruesome.

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Speaker 1: What was the physical evidence left behind? Was she sexually

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Speaker 1: assaulted so they could collect a sample.

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Speaker 2: She was found fully clothed. There was absolutely no evidence

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Speaker 2: that there being any sexual assault. It had just being

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Speaker 2: a brutal attack. There was no electricity in the flat

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Speaker 2: at the time, just that there was an orange light

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Speaker 2: from the street light outside and she was just found

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Speaker 2: displayed on the floor and that was it.

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Speaker 3: That was very little.

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Speaker 2: There was no kind of certainly no seaman to go

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Speaker 2: on or anything like that.

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Speaker 1: Was there any evidence that someone had stolen things from her,

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Speaker 1: Did she have money on her or anything anybody could identify?

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Speaker 2: Well, this is a moot point, and later in the

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Speaker 2: story in a way that you might not expect, becomes relevant.

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Speaker 2: But it wasn't thought at the time that there was

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Speaker 2: any money stolen from her because she had the habit

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Speaker 2: of keeping her change or her notes in her shoe, okay,

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Speaker 2: because that was the safe place. She wasn't a girl

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Speaker 2: to carry handbag. She just had a kind of leather

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Speaker 2: coat on. And also there was there was some banknotes there,

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Speaker 2: but there was some loose change that was sprawled over

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Speaker 2: this kind of it was a bare mattress. That was

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Speaker 2: the only thing that was in the room, and certainly

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Speaker 2: there didn't seem to be any motive or evidence of robbery.

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Speaker 2: So again, very little to go on.

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Speaker 1: So in the United States, if someone commits a crime

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Speaker 1: in a city, but especially as Balltown, they might call

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Speaker 1: in the state police in Texas, they might call the

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Speaker 1: Texas Rangers. Of course we have the FBI. Is this

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Speaker 1: totally handled by the Curdiff police at this point once

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Speaker 1: they're called in.

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Speaker 2: It was handled by their major crime unit, you know,

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Speaker 2: so it's handled by what we would refer to as CID,

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Speaker 2: you know, which is the detective side of it. It's

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Speaker 2: not you know, which is distinct from the uniform side

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Speaker 2: of it. So, yeah, the major crime It was a

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Speaker 2: huge investigation even from the start. You know, there was

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Speaker 2: two incident rooms set up, one that was in the docks,

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Speaker 2: one in the city center, which is only a kind

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Speaker 2: of a mile or so away, mile or two away.

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Speaker 2: The inquiry got off to a really promising start. The

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Speaker 2: breakthrough really very early on, which gave people a lot

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Speaker 2: of optimism, was because this was the talk of the city.

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Speaker 2: You know, it was I remember myself at being walking

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Speaker 2: through town and seeing the street hawkers. They have those

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Speaker 2: posters or these have the postiffs and they're pedestal selling

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Speaker 2: the local paper.

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Speaker 3: And so this was a huge thing. You know, this was.

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Speaker 2: Obviously a brutal murder and it was given a huge

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Speaker 2: suit of publicity and around the rest of the UK too.

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Speaker 3: It was also reported on.

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Speaker 1: So you know, I mean, I've done a lot of

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Speaker 1: stories where the person has quickly identified as someone in

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Speaker 1: sex work and it has not given the kind of

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Speaker 1: attention that you're describing right now. And oftentimes we've done

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Speaker 1: stories where it is clear that there is someone in

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Speaker 1: a string killing sex workers and still the police, especially

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Speaker 1: in the eighties, don't bother looking at it, or you know,

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Speaker 1: whatever the cases. What made this different? Is it because

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Speaker 1: I means Cardiff was a bustling city, so it's not

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Speaker 1: like this is some small town where this would have

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Speaker 1: really been unusual. Was it the brutality of it? Was

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Speaker 1: it that it seemed I think you're going to talk

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Speaker 1: about sort of sexually driven based on where her injuries were.

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Speaker 1: What do you think caught the attention people?

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Speaker 2: I think there were a number of things and these murders.

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Speaker 2: The area had been had a reputation for being extremely

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Speaker 2: violent ever since the fall of the docks. This was

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Speaker 2: its reputation was off the scale. People in the rest

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Speaker 2: of the city, or some people in the rest of

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Speaker 2: the city would have been frightened to go down there.

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Speaker 2: Kids grew up kind of thinking or you know that

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Speaker 2: didn't have any first time knowledge of the docks. Oh

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Speaker 2: this is a scary place. You know, it got reputation

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Speaker 2: for crime. Don't go down there, and it had a

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Speaker 2: bit of a drug scene, and there was a couple

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Speaker 2: of really famous nightclubs down there, which was celebrated and

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Speaker 2: people used to love going down But they just had

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Speaker 2: this reputation for violence.

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Speaker 3: But having said that, there was there had been in

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Speaker 3: the past.

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Speaker 2: There had been some horrific murders and including sex workers

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Speaker 2: down there. You know, this was a violent place, but

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Speaker 2: there had for a while. There was something else going

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Speaker 2: on at the time which was hugely important, which I

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Speaker 2: think plays a huge role in the story is ever

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Speaker 2: since the fall of this great Cardiff Docklands, Cardiff had

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Speaker 2: kind of it was in the eighties that you know,

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Speaker 2: the UK was it was kind of really it was

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Speaker 2: a really polarizing time. Were off the tail end of

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Speaker 2: industrialization and there's great unemployment, there's you know, crimes really

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Speaker 2: on the rise, and so there was this really ambitious

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Speaker 2: plan to rejuvenate Cardiff's Docklands and it was modeled on

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Speaker 2: what had happened in Baltimore. You know, this once great

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Speaker 2: docklands that was completely desolate and crime River. This was

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Speaker 2: a rough area. There was this, you know, huge announcement

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Speaker 2: from Margaret's Margaret Thatcher's Welsh office at the time that

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Speaker 2: this was going to become one of the world's most

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Speaker 2: superlative maritime districts. So in order and in line with

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Speaker 2: the free market ideology of Margaret that in the eighties,

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Speaker 2: and of course you know you had similar things in

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Speaker 2: the States there it was going to be financed by

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Speaker 2: private investment, and so in order to get that money

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Speaker 2: coming in and there was billions needed even then, so

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Speaker 2: there had to have be this very very slick public

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Speaker 2: relations exercise that was going to sell it to investors

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Speaker 2: who would have been in London boardrooms. They wouldn't have

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Speaker 2: been anywhere near this, you know that this was really

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Speaker 2: worth the investment.

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Speaker 3: And of course with this murder was smack bang.

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Speaker 2: In the middle of what was going to be promised

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Speaker 2: to be this kind of you know, fantastic rebranded as

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Speaker 2: Cardiff Bay as opposed to Tiger Bay.

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Speaker 3: You know, it would have been a fly in the ointment.

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Speaker 2: So I think there was a atmosphere around the city

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Speaker 2: that this was a period of great change and that

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Speaker 2: this wasn't great. You know, I've spoken to lots of

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Speaker 2: people that were in authority at the time. Let's say, well,

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Speaker 2: there was certainly nothing explicit you know that put pressure

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Speaker 2: on police, but I think a lot of these things

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Speaker 2: aren't necessarily that explicit. You know, there was a real

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Speaker 2: need to get cleared up, so there was pressure and

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Speaker 2: it was a really resources have been poured into this,

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Speaker 2: this investigation. I don't think that's that unusual, certainly at

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Speaker 2: the time for a murder of this brutality, even given

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Speaker 2: I mean we're talking this is a much smaller city

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Speaker 2: than some of the instances that you're talking about, and

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Speaker 2: I've read books about those cases. So yeah, this was

356
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Speaker 2: a big deal. It was, and it's heartening to that

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Speaker 2: it was a big deal. But yeah, there was a

358
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Speaker 2: really concerted police effort, and what emerged very soon after

359
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Speaker 2: was a number of sightings of a man seen outside

360
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Speaker 2: this kind of this place. It was above the bookmakers.

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Speaker 2: We call them bookies. I don't know whether you call

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Speaker 2: the same, but it was above a bookmaker's shop, and

363
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Speaker 2: this guy, very distinctive guy, was seen outside just hours

364
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Speaker 2: before her body was found. He was seen outside there

365
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Speaker 2: clutching a bloodied hand, a cut and bloodied hand and

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Speaker 2: he was kind of like rocking back and forth, crying

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Speaker 2: and mumbling to himself. So he been seen by a

368
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Speaker 2: number of people. They had a very good description of him.

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Speaker 2: And so we used to have this show called Crime

370
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Speaker 2: Watch UK and again you know, the UK's abatch more

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Speaker 2: than state, but.

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Speaker 3: This was a big that way.

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Speaker 2: It used to be up to thirteen million people used

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Speaker 2: to tune into this every month, you know, and it

375
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Speaker 2: used to be a live kind of program and police

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Speaker 2: forces from all over the UK used to appear with

377
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Speaker 2: these appeals for information.

378
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Speaker 3: And it was one of the I think it was

379
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Speaker 3: like the second.

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Speaker 2: Or third episode of this series that ran for many years,

381
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Speaker 2: and Southwes Police were on this was kind of the big.

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Speaker 3: Case, you know. So it was off to a great start.

383
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Speaker 2: We've got this suspect, he's our prime suspect and all

384
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Speaker 2: we've got to do is find him, peel for information.

385
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Speaker 2: Lots of calls came through with some quite good information

386
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Speaker 2: to the police, but time began dragging on and on

387
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Speaker 2: and it was all it was was the stream of

388
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Speaker 2: we will find him, we will find you. That you

389
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Speaker 2: can't hide, you know, the kind of the police chief

390
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Speaker 2: doing these interviews and it wasn't long before the media

391
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Speaker 2: smart rat and started asking some pretty awkward questions, and

392
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Speaker 2: you know, that's when it was obvious that this investigation

393
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Speaker 2: had stalled.

394
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Speaker 3: And it wasn't progressing.

395
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Speaker 2: And there was kind of a few very testy interviews

396
00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:18,600
Speaker 2: with the local police chief. But still the hunt went

397
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Speaker 2: on for this man.

398
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Speaker 1: And how did they describe him? Because that becomes important, right.

399
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Speaker 2: It becomes really important. He was a white man. He

400
00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:30,440
Speaker 2: was very distinctive. He had this kind of like long, lank,

401
00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:35,880
Speaker 2: greasy black hair. He was, you know, quite a distinctive face.

402
00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:37,720
Speaker 2: He was quite chubby in the face of these high

403
00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:40,080
Speaker 2: cheek bones, and yeah, so he.

404
00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:42,480
Speaker 3: Was a white It was interesting that there was.

405
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Speaker 2: One police officer who was off duty that actually saw

406
00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:48,560
Speaker 2: him too. This becomes relevant that he thought that he

407
00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:52,399
Speaker 2: might have some form of Asian blood in him. But

408
00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:55,679
Speaker 2: he was still extremely pale skinned. You know, he had

409
00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:58,800
Speaker 2: kind of like very very black hair, and so he

410
00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:02,520
Speaker 2: was kind of, yeah, skinny, this guy here kind of

411
00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:04,600
Speaker 2: glasses on and white guy.

412
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Speaker 1: So you said that the case stalls, winners that become unstalled.

413
00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:12,359
Speaker 2: Okay, so the case stalls, and everybody's kind of tugging

414
00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:14,919
Speaker 2: at the police for answers, and then so ten months

415
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:19,119
Speaker 2: later there is a huge breakthrough in the case and

416
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Speaker 2: there is a series of dawn rates on properties and

417
00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:27,400
Speaker 2: five local men living in Tiger Bay who are the

418
00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:31,720
Speaker 2: descendants of the generations of seamen that built their homes there.

419
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Speaker 2: They're either black or mixed heritage, are rounded up and charged.

420
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Speaker 1: What is the justification from CID for this? How are

421
00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:43,520
Speaker 1: they how do they even have warrants to do this?

422
00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:47,000
Speaker 2: Well, it's really I mean, it's it's fascinating the detail

423
00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:50,480
Speaker 2: behind that and how this happened. But so when these

424
00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:54,439
Speaker 2: guys are pulled in, they think it's a mistake. You know,

425
00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:57,320
Speaker 2: they kind of think. They're very use to being on

426
00:22:57,359 --> 00:23:00,480
Speaker 2: the sticky end of the police. They're very used, they say,

427
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:03,600
Speaker 2: to have been set up for crimes that they didn't commit.

428
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Speaker 3: This became an expectation for.

429
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Speaker 2: These guys because nobody was going to come to their

430
00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:10,280
Speaker 2: aid because they were sort of, you know, they had

431
00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:12,680
Speaker 2: no power, They were dogs boys, they were baby boys.

432
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Speaker 2: That this was happening to them regularly, and it happened

433
00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:18,240
Speaker 2: to their fathers too, So they just thought that this,

434
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Speaker 2: I mean, they were terrified because they whilst they thought

435
00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:25,720
Speaker 2: they might they might get stuck for cannabis or something

436
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,399
Speaker 2: like that that you know, had been allegedly found in.

437
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:29,720
Speaker 3: Their flat or something whatever it was.

438
00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:31,920
Speaker 2: Or they may get done for a motor offence or

439
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:36,199
Speaker 2: a stolen car. But the murder of this woman, you know,

440
00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:40,760
Speaker 2: this was just off the scale. And so it became

441
00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:45,040
Speaker 2: clear to these men over time that two women who

442
00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:49,560
Speaker 2: were friends of Lynette Whites had witnessed them, all five

443
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:49,960
Speaker 2: of them.

444
00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:53,520
Speaker 3: Bear in mind, none of these guys hung around with

445
00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:54,000
Speaker 3: each other.

446
00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:56,560
Speaker 2: They all know of one another because they live in

447
00:23:56,560 --> 00:24:00,000
Speaker 2: the same neighborhood. But actually they don't like each other.

448
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:04,399
Speaker 2: It's so preposterous to anybody living there that these guys

449
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:06,600
Speaker 2: just they will be seen with each other, do you

450
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:09,240
Speaker 2: know what I mean? They move at different clubs. They're

451
00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:11,720
Speaker 2: just they're like chalk and cheese, you know, they just

452
00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:12,399
Speaker 2: don't mount.

453
00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:14,840
Speaker 1: Now, I have two things that I flagged that I

454
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:16,800
Speaker 1: want you to explain it. So I've never heard cheek

455
00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:20,159
Speaker 1: and jowl before. From cheek to jowl, So cheek by jowl,

456
00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:23,040
Speaker 1: cheek by jowl, yes, okay.

457
00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:24,959
Speaker 2: So that must be a Britisch one, so cheek, So

458
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:27,880
Speaker 2: we also call this a jowel. So it's cheap by jow,

459
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:29,560
Speaker 2: so it's really really close together.

460
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:33,240
Speaker 1: And then and then why did you did you just

461
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:35,600
Speaker 1: say that? I wanted to explain a chalk and cheese

462
00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:38,040
Speaker 1: and what is that like? Chalk isn't on a board? Josh?

463
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:40,600
Speaker 3: Yeah. And you know what, I don't know. It's just

464
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:41,240
Speaker 3: an idiom.

465
00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:43,720
Speaker 2: That is, if you say they're like chalk and cheese,

466
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:44,760
Speaker 2: they're like black and white.

467
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:45,720
Speaker 3: They're so different.

468
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:48,560
Speaker 1: Okay, I love it. We'll move on.

469
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:52,000
Speaker 2: So they had no connections basically other than they've grown

470
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:56,359
Speaker 2: up and they were connected with with Tiger Bay and

471
00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:59,800
Speaker 2: so yeah, so the police is announced to them that

472
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:03,240
Speaker 2: two women who were also sex workers who were friendly

473
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:05,000
Speaker 2: with Lynette White, well one of whom was very friendly

474
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:07,760
Speaker 2: with Lynette White, had been in the flat that night

475
00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:12,399
Speaker 2: and they had witnessed each of these five men killing

476
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:18,040
Speaker 2: Lynette in some kind of like ritualistic murder. That Stephen Miller,

477
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:21,560
Speaker 2: who was her boyfriend at the time, she had This

478
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:24,399
Speaker 2: is an important thing to say is for five days

479
00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:28,400
Speaker 2: before her murder, Lynette had completely disappeared. She'd gone off

480
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:30,879
Speaker 2: the radar, right, She'd had a bit of a falling

481
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:34,879
Speaker 2: out with her boyfriend. They'd made up but she basically

482
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,040
Speaker 2: her boyfriend was meant to meet her five days before

483
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:39,680
Speaker 2: the murder in their usual place, and she just didn't show,

484
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,639
Speaker 2: and she just went a war for five days, and

485
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:48,680
Speaker 2: the police couldn't figure out and I figured out where

486
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:51,400
Speaker 2: she was in writing the book, but up until that point,

487
00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:53,879
Speaker 2: nobody knew where she was for those five days, and

488
00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:56,280
Speaker 2: so she just basically was having you know, she was

489
00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:58,960
Speaker 2: also due in court for another case that she didn't

490
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 2: want to give evidence on, you know, the fights all

491
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:02,920
Speaker 2: the time, so it was just she just wanted to

492
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:08,040
Speaker 2: lay low, basically. And so their theory was that Stephen

493
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,840
Speaker 2: Miller had found out where she was for some reason,

494
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:13,160
Speaker 2: these other four guys who never hung out with him,

495
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:15,959
Speaker 2: came down to confront them her in a kind of

496
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:19,800
Speaker 2: like ritual gang killing, had stabbed her to death. For instance,

497
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:22,280
Speaker 2: if you take John Actor, who's the protagonist whose kind

498
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:24,920
Speaker 2: of point of view I write about, mostly, he'd never

499
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:28,520
Speaker 2: even heard of these women. They showed him photographs of him,

500
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:31,440
Speaker 2: and you know, John was known by everybody, but he'd

501
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:32,600
Speaker 2: never even seen them before.

502
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:34,639
Speaker 3: So it's this whole story.

503
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:36,960
Speaker 2: There was another two men who were flat talants in

504
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:40,080
Speaker 2: the flat above, who also kind of was woven into

505
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:44,840
Speaker 2: this absolutely, I mean hugely dramatic, where you've got Lynette

506
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:48,680
Speaker 2: pouring at the window and Tony Paris, who's five foot

507
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:52,560
Speaker 2: nothing and was known to just scarp her for any fight.

508
00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 2: It was a guy who was just hated any form

509
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:57,600
Speaker 2: of violence. You know, she was pouring at the window

510
00:26:57,600 --> 00:26:59,719
Speaker 2: and he was stabbed. It it's like something out of

511
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 2: her you know, a kind of Gothic horror. And they

512
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:05,360
Speaker 2: were just dumbfounded.

513
00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:08,760
Speaker 1: What's their explanation for the white man with the bloody hands,

514
00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:10,679
Speaker 1: who were who was just outside that we had all

515
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:12,080
Speaker 1: these witness that was talking about.

516
00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:16,120
Speaker 3: He just falls completely off the radar. When the press asked.

517
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:18,640
Speaker 2: Them, they go. It turns out he was unrelated. It's

518
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 2: completely unrelated. He was a red harrying. And what's really

519
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:25,960
Speaker 2: interesting is such and this is what I was trying

520
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:28,120
Speaker 2: to explore in the book. It's the danger of these

521
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 2: kind of scapegoated communities is that everybody was prepared to

522
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:33,119
Speaker 2: believe it.

523
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:36,080
Speaker 3: These were boys from the docks.

524
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 2: You know, these were they were a rum bunch, and

525
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:40,639
Speaker 2: well the police aren't just going to make it up,

526
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 2: are they, you know, So it was it was very

527
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:47,720
Speaker 2: easy to gaslight the rest of the city into believing

528
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:51,159
Speaker 2: that these guys had done it. Everybody was more than

529
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:54,120
Speaker 2: prepared to go okay, and at this point in time,

530
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:57,159
Speaker 2: the police were trusted, certainly among the kind of you

531
00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:59,480
Speaker 2: know that if you were on the right side of

532
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:02,960
Speaker 2: the tracks, you would never even dream of the police, you.

533
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:04,679
Speaker 3: Know, kind of doing anything untoward it.

534
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:07,280
Speaker 2: Just you know, now's a different story, is those as

535
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:09,840
Speaker 2: these things have been exposed, and certainly British policing at

536
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 2: the moment it's going through it. But you know, at

537
00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:15,720
Speaker 2: the time, people would never have dreamt that this could

538
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:16,520
Speaker 2: have been made up.

539
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 1: This is all based on two women in their account

540
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:22,119
Speaker 1: of this, because one says that she was inside the

541
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:23,560
Speaker 1: apartment when this was happening.

542
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 2: So what they say is they were actually staying in

543
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:28,880
Speaker 2: a flat that's kind of on the opposite road. This

544
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:31,840
Speaker 2: is a road called James Street where Lynette White was killed,

545
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:34,400
Speaker 2: and they were living in a flat on the opposite

546
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:37,800
Speaker 2: side of the road. So this was how their statements went,

547
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 2: that they were sitting there watching television and they hear

548
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 2: screams coming from this very busy road.

549
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:46,480
Speaker 3: They're coming from the other side of the road, and

550
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:46,880
Speaker 3: they run.

551
00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:49,240
Speaker 2: They've got this kind of like council tenement blocks, and

552
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 2: there's a balcony that you can kind of look over,

553
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 2: and they look over the main road. They can see

554
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 2: that screaming appears to be coming from the flat that

555
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 2: Lynette White is known to take clients back too, and

556
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 2: so they run over the roads, run up the stairs,

557
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 2: and that's where they witness this macabre murder. And not

558
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:12,880
Speaker 2: only that, those five men then coerced them, on pain

559
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:17,040
Speaker 2: of death, to cut a net White's throat. So this

560
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:20,680
Speaker 2: is a really I mean, this is a shocking awful

561
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,360
Speaker 2: I mean, this is a torture scenario.

562
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:26,120
Speaker 3: This is a and they say, you.

563
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 2: Can't go to the police now because you're as guilty

564
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 2: as we are, and if you do, we're going to

565
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 2: come for you and your kids.

566
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:38,680
Speaker 1: What's interesting about this case is if these were not

567
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 1: corrupt police, if these two women came for whatever reason,

568
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:45,840
Speaker 1: you know, immunity later on or something they wanted to

569
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 1: get rid of some charges. If they came to them

570
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:51,640
Speaker 1: and said we actually witnessed this, the police would immediately say, great,

571
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 1: give us some details that haven't been in the newspapers yet.

572
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:57,160
Speaker 1: Tell us specifically how many times she was stabbed in

573
00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:59,479
Speaker 1: her inner thigh or her breast or whatever it was,

574
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 1: to make sure they were actually there. But none of

575
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 1: that matters because the police are what are you wicher through?

576
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 1: They're feeding them all of this stuff.

577
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:11,880
Speaker 2: It's incredible when you take it apart, it's frightening. And

578
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:14,520
Speaker 2: there was many times when I was researching the story

579
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:18,520
Speaker 2: that I kind of gasped audibly because I was it's

580
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:22,960
Speaker 2: scary stuff, you know, because what really happened is terrifying,

581
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:25,880
Speaker 2: and it makes you think it could happen to anybody

582
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 2: if power.

583
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:28,040
Speaker 3: Is abused in such a way.

584
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:33,200
Speaker 2: These women and the two other men that were, you know,

585
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:36,120
Speaker 2: kind of allegedly in the flat above at the time

586
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 2: of the murder, they had no choice. They had no

587
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:44,200
Speaker 2: choice if they hadn't gone along with this story. They

588
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 2: were told, we'll charge you with murder. And these particular women,

589
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 2: who were the kind of the more prominent of the

590
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 2: two witnesses, were extremely vulnerable women. One of them is

591
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:56,800
Speaker 2: quite a smart woman, but she was nineteen and she

592
00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:00,360
Speaker 2: was a sex worker, and she, you know, didn't have

593
00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 2: any power in this situation. And the other one was

594
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:09,040
Speaker 2: we would rank in the special needs category and she

595
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 2: should have had an appropriate adult sitting with her, you know,

596
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 2: legislation at the time which she would have warranted that.

597
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:18,240
Speaker 2: So this is a woman that's not capable of getting

598
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 2: out of any kind of psychological difficulties. And you can

599
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 2: feel sympathy for these women because if you've got somebody

600
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 2: implying that if you don't play ball, your child's going

601
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:35,640
Speaker 2: to get homed, then you know, name me a mother

602
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 2: that's not gonna kind of think this isn't about me anymore.

603
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 1: Yeah.

604
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 3: Absolutely, that's the starting point of the case against them.

605
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:46,640
Speaker 1: Tell me what happens with this trial. We've got these

606
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:49,080
Speaker 1: men who go on, we know the women are going

607
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 1: to testify, and tell me what the stakes are. There's

608
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 1: no death penalty in the UK, I think at this

609
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 1: point right.

610
00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 3: There's no death penalty in the UK.

611
00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:00,480
Speaker 2: But Margaret Thatcher, who was the Prime Minister at time,

612
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:03,760
Speaker 2: back to the return of it, so no, it wasn't.

613
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:06,280
Speaker 2: There wasn't a death penalty at the time. So all

614
00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 2: these men were convinced that, look, once this gets to court,

615
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:13,560
Speaker 2: it's going to be thrown out because this is so absurd,

616
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 2: and it wasn't thrown out. And each time there were

617
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:19,600
Speaker 2: checks and balances within the criminal justice system in the UK,

618
00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 2: and it sort.

619
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:21,960
Speaker 3: Of it breezed through it.

620
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:25,600
Speaker 2: But this is what happened, right, is that they've got

621
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:30,360
Speaker 2: a confession from Stephen Miller, who was Lynette White's boyfriend,

622
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:31,959
Speaker 2: one of these five men.

623
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 3: And the theory at the time.

624
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 2: And this was known as a shortcut to justice because

625
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:41,479
Speaker 2: there was a formula used, if you like, in times

626
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:45,040
Speaker 2: of securing these cases, is that you get a witness.

627
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:48,040
Speaker 2: You get a witness to point at a suspect, and

628
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:51,240
Speaker 2: you bring that suspect in and you put him through

629
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:57,000
Speaker 2: such psychological hell that he falsely confesses to a crime

630
00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 2: that he didn't commit. Now, was Stephen Miller. He had

631
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 2: the cognitive ability street wise guy and gave kind of

632
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:07,880
Speaker 2: a he masked it quite well, but he had the

633
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 2: cognitive ability of an eleven year old child, and he

634
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:16,920
Speaker 2: was highly suggestible. And I have listened to all thirteen

635
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:20,600
Speaker 2: hours of Stephen Miller's interrogation, which has sup period over

636
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:24,960
Speaker 2: five days. It is harrowing stuff. And I take it apart,

637
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:30,640
Speaker 2: and the stages by which you dismantle somebody psychologically is undeniable.

638
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 2: And each of these and these are world experts in

639
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:37,880
Speaker 2: this field of coer's confessions, They absolutely stand by their

640
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:42,400
Speaker 2: belief that anybody, almost anybody you get trained people that

641
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:44,719
Speaker 2: wouldn't you know, that would never kind of collapse at

642
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:49,720
Speaker 2: this if put under the right and enough pressure, will

643
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:51,720
Speaker 2: confess to anything, even a violent crime.

644
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:55,560
Speaker 1: So ultimately this all turns on these men and is

645
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 1: everyone convicted.

646
00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:00,800
Speaker 2: No, not everybody is convicted, and there is there is evidence,

647
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 2: but there's and I think that's one thing that's worth

648
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 2: mentioning is is there's so much kind of fury whipped

649
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:09,440
Speaker 2: around this court case that there's it's almost a way

650
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 2: that a narcissists might behave, do you know what I mean?

651
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:16,360
Speaker 2: They kind of create this atmosphere around a person that

652
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:18,520
Speaker 2: they're trying to take down. You know, it's kind of

653
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:20,759
Speaker 2: it was a very emotional manipulation.

654
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:23,080
Speaker 3: Really, No, they're not. In the end.

655
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:26,360
Speaker 2: Three of them convicted. John Acte, who's the guy that

656
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:29,879
Speaker 2: is in the book, he is found not guilty. And

657
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:33,640
Speaker 2: his cousin, Ronnie Actu, who was also charged, he's found

658
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:38,560
Speaker 2: not guilty. Basically that complied with Stephen Miller's confession because

659
00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:41,439
Speaker 2: he said that these two he maintained that these two

660
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:45,359
Speaker 2: were outside the room when Lannette was being stabbed, and

661
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:49,840
Speaker 2: what's central is Stephen Miller's so called confession becomes so

662
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 2: important in the turnaround of the criminal justice system in

663
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:55,799
Speaker 2: the UK as a result of this case. But at

664
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 2: the time they're in for life and had there been

665
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:01,840
Speaker 2: a death penalty, they they were all convinced. There was

666
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:05,400
Speaker 2: another guy called Yusuf Abdallahi who is a local guy duller,

667
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:07,920
Speaker 2: his nickname was, they were all convinced that had there

668
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:10,160
Speaker 2: been the death penalty, they were just swung wow.

669
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:15,040
Speaker 1: Okay, So when's the next thing. Is it investigation into

670
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:18,279
Speaker 1: police corruption or is it more evidence that pops up

671
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:19,920
Speaker 1: over the next twenty years or so.

672
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:23,839
Speaker 2: What happens immediately is there's a vociferous campaign. It is

673
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 2: a justice campaign, but it's coming at the heart of

674
00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:30,359
Speaker 2: this area that has absolutely no agency. And yet they

675
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:33,719
Speaker 2: played a blinder. That's probably another British saying.

676
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:37,239
Speaker 4: Isn't it might be America's going to come to the

677
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 4: rescue here, Because what they do is they get the

678
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:44,080
Speaker 4: Reverend Al Sharpton over and he's are a kind of

679
00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 4: whistle stop tour of.

680
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 2: Britain and they get him down to Cardiff Docklands and

681
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:51,759
Speaker 2: they do I mean, if you saw the.

682
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 3: Video of it. The pictures are fantastic.

683
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:56,440
Speaker 2: They do this march from the docks right through to

684
00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 2: the city center to the court base. It's led by

685
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 2: Al Sharpton and he's got this kind of towsled hair.

686
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:01,960
Speaker 2: At the time, it was.

687
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:03,640
Speaker 3: When he was much larger, you know, and he was

688
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:04,720
Speaker 3: wearing his shell suits.

689
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:06,720
Speaker 1: Is this eighty nine? Is this when it happened?

690
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:11,279
Speaker 2: This happened in nineteen ninety ninety one, and so he

691
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:14,279
Speaker 2: was a hugely controversial figure at the time, a very

692
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:17,400
Speaker 2: divisive figure. And that was again you see the media's

693
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:20,400
Speaker 2: role in this kind of you know, systematic takedown of

694
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:24,200
Speaker 2: these people, and history proved him right, and he backed

695
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 2: this campaign entirely on what he did is yes, he

696
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:30,960
Speaker 2: he attracted certainly the British press at the time, but

697
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:34,520
Speaker 2: what he did was he gave it enormous publicity and

698
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:37,800
Speaker 2: then that started the ripple effects of that investigative journalism

699
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:40,879
Speaker 2: which was in its heyday television investigative journalism as well

700
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:45,680
Speaker 2: got involved in a very prominent program called Panorama in

701
00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:46,560
Speaker 2: Britain at the time.

702
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 3: Lother, yeah, exactly. Well.

703
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:53,279
Speaker 2: Tom Mangold, who I interviewed, was the front man of

704
00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:55,279
Speaker 2: that and he cut his teeth on the kind of

705
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:58,759
Speaker 2: real Fleet Street. You know, he's fantastic. Yeah, and he

706
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:03,640
Speaker 2: and I firmly believe once he got involved that program

707
00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:07,000
Speaker 2: cut to the heart of the British establishment and he

708
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:09,840
Speaker 2: you know, his assessment of what he found when he

709
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:11,879
Speaker 2: examined the case, he came to kind of spent some

710
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:14,960
Speaker 2: time here when he examined the case, and within two

711
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:17,800
Speaker 2: years they had managed to get an appeal.

712
00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:18,560
Speaker 1: Wow.

713
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:21,600
Speaker 2: And at the time as well, it's a very interesting

714
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:24,560
Speaker 2: time because you couldn't get an appeal that the criminal.

715
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:27,720
Speaker 3: Justice system in the UK was really sinking at this time.

716
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:32,000
Speaker 3: There had been one controversy, one miscarriage of justice after

717
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:32,319
Speaker 3: the other.

718
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:35,560
Speaker 2: There was a lot of IRA bombings in mainland Britain

719
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:38,120
Speaker 2: at the time, and a lot of those kind of

720
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:40,719
Speaker 2: convictions were beginning to unravel.

721
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:43,279
Speaker 3: And there was this kind of like what's going on here?

722
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:47,920
Speaker 2: We can't trust what's you know, the court system and

723
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:51,239
Speaker 2: the police have been massively emboldened by Thatcher. So it

724
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:53,239
Speaker 2: was kind of a bit of a meltdown. You know,

725
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:58,480
Speaker 2: this was a fairly volatile time. There was rioting in Britain,

726
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:01,279
Speaker 2: there was prison rioting at this time. You know, there

727
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 2: was a lot of unrests basically, but anyway, they managed

728
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:06,960
Speaker 2: to get an appeal, which was the devil's own job,

729
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:10,880
Speaker 2: and I kind of explained how that was and instantly

730
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:12,560
Speaker 2: this was the first time.

731
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:15,560
Speaker 3: That this confession was played in full.

732
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:18,719
Speaker 2: And the core of appeal is this massive, kind of

733
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:21,719
Speaker 2: like Gothic building where they literally sit on thrones in

734
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:25,680
Speaker 2: red robes, you know, a terrifying place. And every single

735
00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:29,200
Speaker 2: one of Stephen Miller's confession tapes were played in open

736
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:32,880
Speaker 2: court and it was dismissed out of hand.

737
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 3: But there's some theories as to why they were all free.

738
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:40,960
Speaker 2: But that was before the real body of alleged corruption

739
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:44,279
Speaker 2: could be aired in court, and so it was let's

740
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:46,920
Speaker 2: close this down because this is a hornet's nurse, you know,

741
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:49,840
Speaker 2: this is Pandora's box. Let's close it down. Those guys

742
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:53,640
Speaker 2: are free. So they only served four years in total,

743
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:56,120
Speaker 2: but that was kind of just the start of it.

744
00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:58,200
Speaker 2: And one thing I must say about the court case too,

745
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:00,720
Speaker 2: is they the first court. There was two court cases.

746
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:03,600
Speaker 2: They went through this kind of agony of a court case,

747
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:06,719
Speaker 2: and right at the end, it's about six months in

748
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:09,280
Speaker 2: the first crime court judge is just about to sum.

749
00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:11,359
Speaker 3: Up and he dies of a heart attack. Oh no,

750
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:13,720
Speaker 3: so they have to start all over again.

751
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:15,960
Speaker 2: And then the second judge gets rushed to hospital with

752
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:20,319
Speaker 2: a suspected heart you know, it's just drama filled. So yeah,

753
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:23,520
Speaker 2: so they're out and that's when the trouble really starts.

754
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:27,200
Speaker 1: Okay, so the trouble really starts, and then like, what's

755
00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:29,120
Speaker 1: the next big thing that happens after that.

756
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:32,960
Speaker 2: So basically, these guys, all five men, are free at

757
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:37,600
Speaker 2: this point, but they have a huge stigma hanging over them.

758
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:42,279
Speaker 2: They were freed on a technicality, they're still guilty. There

759
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:46,760
Speaker 2: is bad blood between Lennette White's family and them. Lynette

760
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:50,440
Speaker 2: White's father tries to murder John Acte on his doorstep.

761
00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:52,719
Speaker 3: Wow, there is just.

762
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:56,279
Speaker 2: You know, hell to pay basically, and these guys are

763
00:39:56,320 --> 00:40:00,120
Speaker 2: wandering around pleading their innocence to anybody you know that

764
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:02,960
Speaker 2: will listen. Look, there's a you know, there's such dramatic scenes,

765
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:05,600
Speaker 2: you know, pleading with Jonas in the street. There's a

766
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:07,880
Speaker 2: killer out there and it's not us. There's a murder

767
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:11,239
Speaker 2: on the streets of Cardiff, you know. And for many

768
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:15,600
Speaker 2: years this is what they lived under, which caused untold damage,

769
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:21,239
Speaker 2: untold breakdowns, untold drug abuse, you know, and basically there

770
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:23,719
Speaker 2: had been a couple of cases. This wasn't this wasn't

771
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:26,480
Speaker 2: the only case on South Wales Police's books. But what

772
00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:31,680
Speaker 2: happened is the force's reputation had reached such a stage

773
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:35,640
Speaker 2: of distrust that they had to do something.

774
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:38,319
Speaker 3: They knew they had to do something, and with.

775
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:42,560
Speaker 2: The advance of forensic science, particularly in DNA, they were

776
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:45,960
Speaker 2: the first force, only second after the Metropolitan Police in

777
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:48,440
Speaker 2: London actually to set up a cold case unit. And

778
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:51,120
Speaker 2: so the theory was well sat up this cold case

779
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:53,640
Speaker 2: unit which called a major Crimes Reviewing Unit or whatever.

780
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:56,840
Speaker 2: And the first case the kind of real thought in

781
00:40:56,880 --> 00:40:59,920
Speaker 2: their side was the Lynette White case because people had

782
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:03,000
Speaker 2: long thought, you know, something's not right about this, and

783
00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:05,360
Speaker 2: so I think it would have been quite natural for

784
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:08,120
Speaker 2: them to think, you know what, we think these guys

785
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:10,200
Speaker 2: did it, so we'll just prove that they did do it,

786
00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:12,000
Speaker 2: so that we can clear this matter up once and

787
00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:15,600
Speaker 2: for all. So they they kind of they had two

788
00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:18,840
Speaker 2: great police officers who were much younger, who were brought

789
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:21,279
Speaker 2: in to do this and the guy in charge sort

790
00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:24,680
Speaker 2: of describes it as a hospital pass because you know, look,

791
00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:27,120
Speaker 2: those guys are those guys are guilty? What we're wasting

792
00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:29,160
Speaker 2: our money on? He didn't say that other people did,

793
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:33,360
Speaker 2: but he was fantastic and he did everything by the book,

794
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:36,839
Speaker 2: and he kind of outsourced the forensic work which had

795
00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:38,840
Speaker 2: just been allowed to kind of be used to be

796
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:41,719
Speaker 2: government owned, but now it had been given its independence,

797
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:44,720
Speaker 2: and he said, look, we've got to look at this case.

798
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:47,440
Speaker 2: And so it was in nineteen ninety nine that it

799
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:52,360
Speaker 2: was first reviewed. And then there was exceptional forensic scientists

800
00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:55,319
Speaker 2: called Dr Angela Gallup, who is solved. You know, she

801
00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:57,680
Speaker 2: started she cut the teeth on the Yorkshire reppercase and

802
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:01,960
Speaker 2: she has solved a phenomenal amount of cases with such ingenuity.

803
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:05,080
Speaker 3: She's fantastic and she was drafted into this.

804
00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:08,799
Speaker 2: And so in two thousand they announced that there's going

805
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:11,680
Speaker 2: to be a complete reinvestigation into the case.

806
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:12,760
Speaker 3: Wow.

807
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:16,719
Speaker 1: Yeah. And then you know, as time moves on, there's

808
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:19,759
Speaker 1: another big breakthrough that happens that actually leads us to

809
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:20,440
Speaker 1: the real killer.

810
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:23,680
Speaker 2: Right, there's a big breakthrough and it's quite painstaking, but cut,

811
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:27,439
Speaker 2: very very painstaking story short. Within three years they had

812
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:30,760
Speaker 2: a full DNA profile and you've got you know, DNA

813
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:33,759
Speaker 2: was kind of progressing at a rate of knots, you know,

814
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:38,040
Speaker 2: it was, it was developing so quickly, but even so

815
00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:41,719
Speaker 2: they managed it was difficult, but they've managed to get

816
00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:46,000
Speaker 2: this full DNA profile from blood spots that had been

817
00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:49,319
Speaker 2: found on the Letwhite's clothes that were in danger of

818
00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:54,040
Speaker 2: being tested to death, and also on wallpaper that had

819
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:56,319
Speaker 2: just been it kind of been steamed off and kind

820
00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:58,320
Speaker 2: of rolled up and put in police storage from the

821
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:03,160
Speaker 2: original murdercine and some ingenious detective work from Angela Gallop

822
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:07,520
Speaker 2: which was finding removing an old skirting board from the

823
00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:12,840
Speaker 2: flat and again peeling back so carefully layers of paint,

824
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:15,560
Speaker 2: compared photographs of the crime scene and see if the

825
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:17,960
Speaker 2: blood was still there. Of course, they hadn't cleared up

826
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:20,600
Speaker 2: the crime scene. They basically slapped to coats of gloss

827
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:23,280
Speaker 2: paint over it. And so they were able to find

828
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:27,800
Speaker 2: more samples of blood in which to find the killers

829
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:29,799
Speaker 2: DNA because a lot of the blood was lynettes, you know,

830
00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:32,359
Speaker 2: So there was all these kind of like looking into

831
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:35,879
Speaker 2: cast off blood and blood patterns, and they found kind

832
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:38,360
Speaker 2: of grip marks in blood on the bottom of her jeans.

833
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:41,560
Speaker 2: Her body had been dragged across the room Anyway, they

834
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:44,080
Speaker 2: finally get a DNA profile and they put it through

835
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:47,480
Speaker 2: the emptyen databases and it came up with nothing, and

836
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:50,480
Speaker 2: so you know, they were kind of at a dead end.

837
00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:54,880
Speaker 2: And basically there was there was one police officer in particular,

838
00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:58,240
Speaker 2: he was so eaglid and he noticed a strange alliole

839
00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:00,960
Speaker 2: or an allele that didn't which is basically a number

840
00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:04,640
Speaker 2: on a DNA cuttern that didn't occur very often when

841
00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:06,960
Speaker 2: he was trying to compare this DNA. You know, we now,

842
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:08,839
Speaker 2: we just get a computer system to do this for us,

843
00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:12,920
Speaker 2: but that wasn't the case then and again, through sheer

844
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:16,720
Speaker 2: dedication had managed to find a DNA profile that shared

845
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:21,000
Speaker 2: a number of these kind of alliles or similarities with

846
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:25,719
Speaker 2: this with the killer's profile, and eventually they identified a

847
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:28,920
Speaker 2: fourteen year old boy who'd been joy riding Stephen class basically,

848
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:32,640
Speaker 2: and they'd thought, well, it's called for millial DNA, which

849
00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:35,120
Speaker 2: is now, you know, kind of South Wales has a

850
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:38,440
Speaker 2: world first for the first murder conviction for millial DNA,

851
00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:41,359
Speaker 2: which has happened just a short while before. But they

852
00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:44,239
Speaker 2: went to this guy's family. He wasn't born at the

853
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:46,359
Speaker 2: time of the murder, and so they said, if you've

854
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:48,799
Speaker 2: got a father, and they did his father and there

855
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:53,399
Speaker 2: was more in common with this murderer's DNA and they said,

856
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:55,880
Speaker 2: but it's not you. Have you got any other brothers,

857
00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:58,160
Speaker 2: you know, They did another brother and they said, yeah,

858
00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:00,719
Speaker 2: there's another brother, but we don't see him, you know,

859
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:01,960
Speaker 2: he cut off from the family.

860
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:04,680
Speaker 3: And so basically they went to this guy.

861
00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:08,000
Speaker 2: He was identified as a man called Jeffrey Guffour who

862
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:10,320
Speaker 2: had lived in a He lived in a village outside

863
00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:13,880
Speaker 2: of Cardiff, very reclusive lifestyle. He worked as a security guard,

864
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:17,880
Speaker 2: a night watchmen. And they called it his house and

865
00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:20,959
Speaker 2: his place of work and said, we'd like to take

866
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:23,080
Speaker 2: a math swab from you, if that's okay.

867
00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:25,760
Speaker 3: We're reinvestigating the nat White term murder.

868
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:29,400
Speaker 2: And he said, oh, I did know Lynna, you know,

869
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:32,080
Speaker 2: I did have sex with her before she was killed.

870
00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:35,439
Speaker 2: And he didn't know what form of DNA they had,

871
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:37,200
Speaker 2: but it was blood DNA. It's nothing to do with

872
00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:42,040
Speaker 2: semen anyway, there's more drama. They get to him. They

873
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:44,760
Speaker 2: were preparing a suite to bring him in for questioning

874
00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:47,799
Speaker 2: because everything they had a kind of lay panel. They

875
00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:50,560
Speaker 2: wanted to get this there had been such corruption that

876
00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:53,759
Speaker 2: they wanted to do everything right, and they had to

877
00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:57,759
Speaker 2: burst down his door because basically he was seen buying drugs,

878
00:45:57,880 --> 00:46:01,760
Speaker 2: you know, painkillers from four different places and he'd swallowed

879
00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:05,040
Speaker 2: up to seventy tablets by the time they got to him,

880
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:07,680
Speaker 2: and he was kind of in and out, almost in

881
00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:11,440
Speaker 2: an out of consciousness, you know, basically saying I did it,

882
00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:13,880
Speaker 2: and I'm going to die and I'm looking forward to

883
00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:16,640
Speaker 2: seeing if the if god or the devil exists. As

884
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:19,680
Speaker 2: he was blue lighted to hospital and he dies, he

885
00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:25,400
Speaker 2: doesn't die, he doesn't die. So yeah, eventually they get

886
00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:27,520
Speaker 2: they get him to agree. They said, listen, if you

887
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:30,799
Speaker 2: don't have this very invasive stomach plumping, basically you're going

888
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:33,520
Speaker 2: to die. And it's amazing. He must have been holding

889
00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:36,480
Speaker 2: on to life for some reason. So he basically was

890
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:38,719
Speaker 2: given an antidote for the kind of the amount that

891
00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:43,080
Speaker 2: he'd taken, and he survives and he confesses.

892
00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:45,040
Speaker 1: Wait, they asked, they asked his permission to do that.

893
00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:48,839
Speaker 2: I know, it's really weird, but they did do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

894
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:51,520
Speaker 2: it's strange they did. But anyway, he sort of said, yeah, look,

895
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:54,440
Speaker 2: I want to live and just do it. And so

896
00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:58,640
Speaker 2: he confessed he was He was given representation leagal representation.

897
00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:00,640
Speaker 2: He said, I just want to get this over and

898
00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:01,080
Speaker 2: done with.

899
00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:03,799
Speaker 3: I did it. Why did you do it? Why did

900
00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:04,640
Speaker 3: you do it? Jeffrey?

901
00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:08,799
Speaker 2: And this story was and again I go into the

902
00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:11,800
Speaker 2: details of the different versions of his story. But he'd

903
00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:16,120
Speaker 2: met Lenette, he'd gone there for sex. He's given her

904
00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:20,560
Speaker 2: thirty pounds and he changed his mind and she refused

905
00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:22,719
Speaker 2: to give the money back and he lost it. Wow,

906
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:25,040
Speaker 2: now I think there's a little bit more to the

907
00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:27,360
Speaker 2: story than that. I think he'd been with that before.

908
00:47:27,719 --> 00:47:31,319
Speaker 2: You know, he played games initially. He kind of likes

909
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:35,279
Speaker 2: these mind games. But anyway, so he gets he gets

910
00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:39,200
Speaker 2: a life term. But ironically, even though he'd let five

911
00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:41,240
Speaker 2: of the men's suffer for a crime that he committed,

912
00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:45,200
Speaker 2: he got less of a tariff than the three men

913
00:47:45,239 --> 00:47:46,880
Speaker 2: that were originally convicted.

914
00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:48,120
Speaker 1: Because he got what he took at a plea deal.

915
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:51,920
Speaker 2: No, well, he pled guilty, but obviously that wins you

916
00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:54,280
Speaker 2: kind of a certain amount of credit with the judge.

917
00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:57,359
Speaker 2: But the judge was even taking into account the fact

918
00:47:57,400 --> 00:47:59,080
Speaker 2: that he let five of the man's suffer for a

919
00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:01,360
Speaker 2: crime that he knew he commit still got less than

920
00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:04,799
Speaker 2: the men, you know, and so he's tucked away. He's

921
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:09,040
Speaker 2: tucked away during his time and you know, the ironies

922
00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:11,800
Speaker 2: of this story and never ending. He's quite happy in prison,

923
00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:15,560
Speaker 2: and he later says that his life vastly improved inside prison,

924
00:48:15,719 --> 00:48:17,440
Speaker 2: you know, because this was a guy that was basically,

925
00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:20,160
Speaker 2: I think, trying to keep a lid on a volatile

926
00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:24,120
Speaker 2: temper and had just become reclusive. You know, he didn't

927
00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:27,759
Speaker 2: fit into society very well. And so basically, if this

928
00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:31,800
Speaker 2: guy was guilty, then what of these four witnesses talking

929
00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:35,880
Speaker 2: about giving evidence at the Crown court clearly perjured evidence.

930
00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:40,600
Speaker 2: So then another police investigation began into alleged corruption. In

931
00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:45,280
Speaker 2: the original inquiry, three of the four people very vulnerable people,

932
00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:48,320
Speaker 2: one of which the fourth one was deemed too vulnerable

933
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:52,719
Speaker 2: to understand the meaning of giving perjured evidence. So the

934
00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:55,879
Speaker 2: three that were able to grasp that concept were put

935
00:48:55,960 --> 00:48:58,360
Speaker 2: in front of a court and they were in prison

936
00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:00,840
Speaker 2: for telling lies on the stand. And these are the

937
00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:04,279
Speaker 2: sex work former sex workers and another very vulnerable guy,

938
00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:07,520
Speaker 2: a gay guy at the time who was living above

939
00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:10,200
Speaker 2: Lynette White. And they did that, they plied guilty in

940
00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:12,799
Speaker 2: the end on the basis that they were told that

941
00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:15,640
Speaker 2: the police officers that had made them, that have forced

942
00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:18,760
Speaker 2: them to give false evidence, would also be brought to justice.

943
00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:23,480
Speaker 2: And so then begins the corruption investigation into the detectives

944
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:25,000
Speaker 2: that led this murder inquiry.

945
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:28,719
Speaker 1: And ultimately what happens are the major crimes with the

946
00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:32,080
Speaker 1: curd Off police are they held responsible for anyway? What happened.

947
00:49:32,239 --> 00:49:33,160
Speaker 3: It's a massive deal.

948
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:36,720
Speaker 2: It's a protracted legal investigation and very fraud and there's

949
00:49:36,760 --> 00:49:39,359
Speaker 2: you know, all sorts going on behind the scenes. And

950
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:43,680
Speaker 2: basically they go to trial in twenty and eleven and

951
00:49:44,239 --> 00:49:47,920
Speaker 2: each of the surviving men, John Act, Stephen Miller, and Tony.

952
00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:48,960
Speaker 3: Parris hauled into court.

953
00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:51,280
Speaker 2: They think to give evidence as witnesses is a final

954
00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:53,080
Speaker 2: This they get their day in the sun, you know,

955
00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:57,640
Speaker 2: and they are virtually they are torn apart by the

956
00:49:57,719 --> 00:50:01,200
Speaker 2: defense lawyers on behalf of these retired please officers, and

957
00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:05,320
Speaker 2: they say, you did it, despite all the evidence, despite

958
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:08,400
Speaker 2: this guy admitting it, despite the fact his blood is

959
00:50:08,560 --> 00:50:12,600
Speaker 2: all over the flat, you did it. And so they

960
00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:16,799
Speaker 2: tortured these guys. In the UK the process is called disclosure.

961
00:50:17,120 --> 00:50:20,399
Speaker 2: In the States, you would call it discovery. Now bear

962
00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:24,880
Speaker 2: in mind that this is this investigation into corruption is

963
00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:28,439
Speaker 2: got paperwork and statements. I mean pieces of paper going

964
00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:31,399
Speaker 2: into the millions of so many court cases going back

965
00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:36,640
Speaker 2: so many years that this is for any barrister who

966
00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:40,640
Speaker 2: specializes in this area, this is feeding time because all

967
00:50:40,680 --> 00:50:44,480
Speaker 2: you have to do and inevitably, this is a police force.

968
00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:48,440
Speaker 2: This is the detectives that got a certain amount of budget.

969
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:52,040
Speaker 2: They say they weren't helped by the Crown Prosecution Service

970
00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:55,800
Speaker 2: who take these prosecutions, and they said they were hampered

971
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:59,799
Speaker 2: by that, and so they kept on making slip after

972
00:50:59,840 --> 00:51:04,279
Speaker 2: slip after slip in the discovery or disclosure process. Now

973
00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:07,359
Speaker 2: these weren't big slips, they weren't big slips, but there

974
00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:10,600
Speaker 2: was such a kind of imbalance of power in a

975
00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:14,400
Speaker 2: way that you know, they kept shipping chipping, chipping away.

976
00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:17,080
Speaker 2: And there was a very experienced and well thought of

977
00:51:17,200 --> 00:51:20,480
Speaker 2: judge presiding over this trial, and so he set a test.

978
00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:23,520
Speaker 2: So and you know, the prosecution said to him, we've

979
00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:25,600
Speaker 2: got a house in order. I finally I can promise

980
00:51:25,640 --> 00:51:28,120
Speaker 2: you they're going to be no more disclosure or discovery

981
00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:30,880
Speaker 2: slip ups. Okay, fine, but I'm going to set you

982
00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:33,480
Speaker 2: a test. And this is the test, and so he

983
00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:36,239
Speaker 2: won't go to the decabit. He he said, I want

984
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:39,520
Speaker 2: you to show that all pieces of paper and statements

985
00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:42,480
Speaker 2: of a certain type are in order, and I want

986
00:51:42,520 --> 00:51:44,719
Speaker 2: you to show me the catalogs for them. And this

987
00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:47,240
Speaker 2: is the point at there was four pieces of paper,

988
00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:50,600
Speaker 2: four statements that weren't Germaine the trial. They were about

989
00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:56,600
Speaker 2: police complaints and they couldn't be found on that basis.

990
00:51:57,080 --> 00:52:00,080
Speaker 3: The truck collapsed and all the officers or it.

991
00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:03,640
Speaker 2: Was fourteen people charged and every single one was found

992
00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:04,160
Speaker 2: not guilty.

993
00:52:04,360 --> 00:52:07,400
Speaker 1: So that was almost fifteen years ago. Ultimately, what happens

994
00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:09,000
Speaker 1: with you know, this group of.

995
00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:11,520
Speaker 3: People they wander off into the cuentset.

996
00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:13,200
Speaker 1: Do they get to still work for the police.

997
00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:17,000
Speaker 2: The majority of those charged were retired, so they were

998
00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:21,320
Speaker 2: on their pensions anyway, so there was no sanction. Before

999
00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:24,960
Speaker 2: the official investigation could be done, there was huge calls

1000
00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:27,000
Speaker 2: for a public inquiry, but in the end there was

1001
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:29,640
Speaker 2: a judge led inquiry into what happened. What had to

1002
00:52:29,640 --> 00:52:31,560
Speaker 2: get out of the way before that could it happened

1003
00:52:31,680 --> 00:52:35,080
Speaker 2: was the police officers who'd walked free from court then

1004
00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:38,160
Speaker 2: turned around and suit but they weren't successful in that.

1005
00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:41,560
Speaker 1: What about the men who you know, went through all

1006
00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:44,680
Speaker 1: of this four years in prison. I know you said

1007
00:52:44,719 --> 00:52:46,040
Speaker 1: one of them had passed away.

1008
00:52:46,520 --> 00:52:46,680
Speaker 2: You know.

1009
00:52:46,719 --> 00:52:48,600
Speaker 1: In the United States we have sort of an official

1010
00:52:48,640 --> 00:52:53,200
Speaker 1: exoneration process where the prosecutor essentially says, I'm sorry on

1011
00:52:53,280 --> 00:52:56,560
Speaker 1: behalf of whoever did this to you before I took office,

1012
00:52:56,560 --> 00:52:59,960
Speaker 1: of course, and then many times they are a competence

1013
00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:02,239
Speaker 1: for this oneful conviction. Does it work the same way

1014
00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:03,000
Speaker 1: in the UK.

1015
00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:04,279
Speaker 3: It works in a similar way.

1016
00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:07,960
Speaker 2: They got a written apology from the Chief Constable, so

1017
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:10,720
Speaker 2: the head of Southwest Police, that police force at the time.

1018
00:53:11,920 --> 00:53:15,560
Speaker 2: They did sue the police compared to the payouts that

1019
00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:17,839
Speaker 2: people get in the States, and I mean there's some

1020
00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:21,080
Speaker 2: you know, horrendous cases in the States in many decades

1021
00:53:21,120 --> 00:53:22,280
Speaker 2: that people serve wrongfully.

1022
00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:26,320
Speaker 3: We're talking in the thousands.

1023
00:53:26,719 --> 00:53:29,920
Speaker 2: You know. And then they did sue. They got two

1024
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:33,719
Speaker 2: hundred and fifty three hundred thousand pounds, you know, and

1025
00:53:34,120 --> 00:53:37,239
Speaker 2: it was kind of viewed the damage that there was.

1026
00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:40,680
Speaker 2: You know, families have broken up, people had died young.

1027
00:53:41,400 --> 00:53:45,320
Speaker 2: Tony Paris's father died weeks before he won on appeal,

1028
00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:49,120
Speaker 2: believing his son was a murderer, and families were torn apart.

1029
00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:54,000
Speaker 2: Marriages broke down. You know, however many early deaths. I

1030
00:53:54,040 --> 00:53:57,759
Speaker 2: mean just the sheer horror, and not only that, it

1031
00:53:58,000 --> 00:54:03,920
Speaker 2: ripped apart this history community because what happened. Everybody was

1032
00:54:03,960 --> 00:54:07,680
Speaker 2: so terrorized by what the police were doing that one

1033
00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:11,640
Speaker 2: after the other, the pubs and clubs that had been

1034
00:54:11,760 --> 00:54:16,200
Speaker 2: so famous in this area were closed one after the other,

1035
00:54:16,760 --> 00:54:20,399
Speaker 2: and people it broke. It was the final death now

1036
00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:25,799
Speaker 2: of this community, this huge kind of like multicultural community.

1037
00:54:26,520 --> 00:54:28,880
Speaker 2: They wanted to see off so that this kind of

1038
00:54:28,960 --> 00:54:31,799
Speaker 2: real new corporate kind of Cardiff Bay, with all its

1039
00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:35,040
Speaker 2: bells and whistles, they could be kind of like quietly

1040
00:54:35,080 --> 00:54:36,000
Speaker 2: swept aside.

1041
00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:38,800
Speaker 1: What are the darklands like these days?

1042
00:54:38,880 --> 00:54:41,600
Speaker 3: Now it's a thriving area. It's called it. It has been

1043
00:54:41,640 --> 00:54:43,000
Speaker 3: rebranded Cardiff Bay.

1044
00:54:43,160 --> 00:54:46,319
Speaker 2: But you know so many people mention it and I

1045
00:54:46,440 --> 00:54:48,400
Speaker 2: was down there last weekend.

1046
00:54:49,040 --> 00:54:50,400
Speaker 3: Vibrant place. Yes, great.

1047
00:54:50,640 --> 00:54:53,520
Speaker 2: You know there's criticism of it, but there's criticism of everything.

1048
00:54:54,040 --> 00:54:57,640
Speaker 2: There's not one vestige of Tiger Bay.

1049
00:54:57,960 --> 00:54:58,279
Speaker 3: There's not.

1050
00:54:58,400 --> 00:55:01,399
Speaker 2: You'd think with a history like Tiger Bay had, there.

1051
00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:03,839
Speaker 3: Would be a museum, there would be celebration.

1052
00:55:04,040 --> 00:55:06,560
Speaker 2: You know, this is this is the kind of crucible

1053
00:55:06,600 --> 00:55:09,279
Speaker 2: of diversity you know, before it was ever a kind

1054
00:55:09,280 --> 00:55:12,360
Speaker 2: of huge concept. We should celebrate it. Shirley Bassie. You

1055
00:55:12,400 --> 00:55:15,239
Speaker 2: know the famous thing of Shirley Bassie, the expandit. She's

1056
00:55:15,280 --> 00:55:18,600
Speaker 2: from Tiger Bay, so you know, there was great musicians

1057
00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:20,799
Speaker 2: and sportsmen that had been exported from this there. But

1058
00:55:20,800 --> 00:55:24,600
Speaker 2: there's nothing, there's nothing to celebrate. You would never there's

1059
00:55:24,640 --> 00:55:28,520
Speaker 2: people that grow up in the city that never heard

1060
00:55:28,560 --> 00:55:32,240
Speaker 2: of Tiger Bay, that have no idea about the city's

1061
00:55:32,640 --> 00:55:33,920
Speaker 2: tumultuous history.

1062
00:55:34,360 --> 00:55:36,920
Speaker 1: To end on the victim, which I always think we

1063
00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:42,560
Speaker 1: should do. Lynnette White, did her family ultimately accept the

1064
00:55:42,600 --> 00:55:47,160
Speaker 1: fact that someone else killed her? Not these men who

1065
00:55:47,160 --> 00:55:49,680
Speaker 1: had gone on trial and were convicted. Yes they did,

1066
00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:51,080
Speaker 1: Oh good, Yes they did.

1067
00:55:51,800 --> 00:55:55,399
Speaker 2: What is very sad is that Lynette's father he fell

1068
00:55:55,400 --> 00:55:57,759
Speaker 2: over in it. He had a domestic accident, but he

1069
00:55:57,920 --> 00:56:00,560
Speaker 2: died in his fifties, very young. He fell down the

1070
00:56:00,560 --> 00:56:04,319
Speaker 2: stairs at home and he never got to know the

1071
00:56:04,360 --> 00:56:04,920
Speaker 2: real killer.

1072
00:56:05,239 --> 00:56:06,320
Speaker 3: But the family did.

1073
00:56:06,719 --> 00:56:09,879
Speaker 2: You know, there's some beautiful members of that family that

1074
00:56:10,160 --> 00:56:12,280
Speaker 2: you know whenever I spoke to them, and they very

1075
00:56:12,640 --> 00:56:16,000
Speaker 2: so understandably suspicious of the media, but said, you know,

1076
00:56:16,120 --> 00:56:18,759
Speaker 2: are you talking to the boys too? It were kind

1077
00:56:18,760 --> 00:56:21,680
Speaker 2: of concerned of them too, and this terrible kind of

1078
00:56:21,719 --> 00:56:25,239
Speaker 2: bad blood that existed. Yeah, they accepted that they had

1079
00:56:25,280 --> 00:56:27,520
Speaker 2: been completely innocent.

1080
00:56:27,400 --> 00:56:29,520
Speaker 1: And what happened to men ultimately.

1081
00:56:29,800 --> 00:56:32,640
Speaker 2: John Acte, who's the protagonist of my story, John is

1082
00:56:32,719 --> 00:56:36,440
Speaker 2: sixty four, and I think that what the telling of

1083
00:56:36,480 --> 00:56:39,080
Speaker 2: this story has done in so many platforms has given

1084
00:56:39,239 --> 00:56:44,160
Speaker 2: him a renewed sense of vindication. Psychologically he suffers, you know,

1085
00:56:44,200 --> 00:56:48,080
Speaker 2: he's been assessed for PTSD at the extreme level. Tony

1086
00:56:48,160 --> 00:56:52,200
Speaker 2: Paris sadly died two years ago. Stephen Miller still living,

1087
00:56:52,239 --> 00:56:55,000
Speaker 2: He lives in still lives in South London. Use of

1088
00:56:55,080 --> 00:56:58,920
Speaker 2: Abdollahi died age forty nine was the fourth member. And

1089
00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:03,080
Speaker 2: Ronnie Acty he died forty nine. And Ronnie had died

1090
00:57:03,520 --> 00:57:07,480
Speaker 2: in a garden shed, having a total mental breakdown and

1091
00:57:07,560 --> 00:57:10,960
Speaker 2: refusing office of help from anybody. He's very close family around.

1092
00:57:11,200 --> 00:57:14,600
Speaker 2: I mean, the total destruction of these people.

1093
00:57:14,640 --> 00:57:18,120
Speaker 1: It's awful. What is your takeaway from the story. What

1094
00:57:18,200 --> 00:57:21,520
Speaker 1: do you want people to know when they're done reading

1095
00:57:21,520 --> 00:57:23,720
Speaker 1: the book or listening to the podcast.

1096
00:57:23,560 --> 00:57:29,160
Speaker 2: That there is a huge danger in believing all that

1097
00:57:29,200 --> 00:57:32,440
Speaker 2: you're told, and that there's a huge danger. And I

1098
00:57:32,440 --> 00:57:36,880
Speaker 2: think we should be ever watchful and vigilant for scapegoated communities,

1099
00:57:37,040 --> 00:57:40,720
Speaker 2: for those oppressed minorities, because you know what, it's so

1100
00:57:41,200 --> 00:57:46,360
Speaker 2: easy to spin fear and suspicion around people that don't

1101
00:57:46,360 --> 00:57:50,200
Speaker 2: deserve it. It's so easy to scare people into the

1102
00:57:50,400 --> 00:57:53,920
Speaker 2: fear of the other, and so always kind of like

1103
00:57:54,040 --> 00:57:56,960
Speaker 2: be vigilant. This is cause it's human nature. This is

1104
00:57:57,000 --> 00:58:00,480
Speaker 2: the dark side of human nature. But the minority are

1105
00:58:00,720 --> 00:58:15,200
Speaker 2: very vulnerable. Any impressed minority is vulnerable to injustice.

1106
00:58:15,920 --> 00:58:18,840
Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the

1107
00:58:18,840 --> 00:58:21,920
Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Sinners, All Bow, The

1108
00:58:21,960 --> 00:58:25,120
Speaker 1: Ghost Club, All That Is Wicked, and American Sherlock and

1109
00:58:25,200 --> 00:58:28,439
Speaker 1: Don't Forget There are twelve seasons of my historical true

1110
00:58:28,480 --> 00:58:32,959
Speaker 1: crime podcast, Tenfold More Wicked right here in this podcast feed,

1111
00:58:33,240 --> 00:58:35,960
Speaker 1: scroll back and give them a listen if you haven't already.

1112
00:58:36,360 --> 00:58:39,880
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production. Our senior producer

1113
00:58:39,960 --> 00:58:44,840
Speaker 1: is Alexis Mrosi. Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This

1114
00:58:44,960 --> 00:58:49,040
Speaker 1: episode was mixed by John Bradley. Curtis Heath is our composer,

1115
00:58:49,320 --> 00:58:53,800
Speaker 1: artwork by Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hartstark, Karen

1116
00:58:53,880 --> 00:58:57,680
Speaker 1: Kilgarriff and Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram and

1117
00:58:57,760 --> 00:59:02,000
Speaker 1: Facebook at tenfold more Wicked and on Twitter at tenfold more.

1118
00:59:02,240 --> 00:59:04,160
Speaker 1: And if you know of a historical crime that could

1119
00:59:04,240 --> 00:59:07,000
Speaker 1: use some attention from the crew at tenfold more Wicked,

1120
00:59:07,160 --> 00:59:11,360
Speaker 1: email us at info at tenfoldmore wicked dot com. We'll

1121
00:59:11,400 --> 00:59:14,680
Speaker 1: also take your suggestions for true crime authors for Wicked

1122
00:59:14,720 --> 00:59:15,160
Speaker 1: Words