Speaker 1: Push it. Happy holidays everyone, I know this is a
Speaker 1: special time of year. We are taking a few weeks
Speaker 1: off and we'll be back with some of my best friends.
Speaker 1: Are in mid January, this time dropping in your feet
Speaker 1: on Wednesdays instead of Tuesdays. We'll catch you then have
Speaker 1: a wonderful holiday season. I was also fortunate enough to
Speaker 1: be a part of the cast of Fargo. It's set
Speaker 1: in Kansas City, but it was so, so so Chicago.
Speaker 1: It felt like Chicago. You were Chris Rock's wife. No,
Speaker 1: Chris Rock was my husband. I'm Khalil Gibrad Muhammed and
Speaker 1: I'm Ben Austin. We're two best friends, one black, one white.
Speaker 1: I'm a historian and I'm a journalist. And this is
Speaker 1: some of my best friends are. Some of my best
Speaker 1: friends are dot dot dot. In this show, we wrestle
Speaker 1: with the challenges and the absurdities of a deeply divided
Speaker 1: and unequal country. And in this episode we are talking
Speaker 1: about two of our favorite television shows right now. They
Speaker 1: tell us so much about how places themselves, like cities,
Speaker 1: play a huge part in how we understand the divisions
Speaker 1: in our country and how we might come together. They
Speaker 1: give us so much joy and we want you to
Speaker 1: enjoy them too. Man, TV as knowledge. I like this
Speaker 1: Kalila Entertainment. We got it before we get started. I
Speaker 1: just wanted to let you know this episode has some
Speaker 1: strong language. Just a fair warning, but stick around something
Speaker 1: not only what's up, Kalila, How you doing. I'm good, man,
Speaker 1: I'm good. Loved what you just said about TV shows,
Speaker 1: you know where they're set, being like a character in
Speaker 1: itself and being so important to the actual story. Yeah,
Speaker 1: to how we understand, like you know, who we are
Speaker 1: and our neighbors and even what informs how we think
Speaker 1: about the world. And I love movies like that. I
Speaker 1: love TV shows like that. I love books like that.
Speaker 1: But I'm thinking about TV shows that are set in
Speaker 1: a certain place and how there's a pleasure when you're
Speaker 1: familiar with the place to see to see the familiar.
Speaker 1: And you know, we have both seen Abbot Elementary set
Speaker 1: in Philadelphia, in an elementary school there. Oh man, it's great,
Speaker 1: And just like recognizing the flavors of Philadelphia with the
Speaker 1: attitudes and the food, the food, like the aspects of
Speaker 1: a place. Yes, and a show that friends turned me
Speaker 1: onto a couple of years ago, The Ozarks and I
Speaker 1: was very slow to watch it, but oh my god,
Speaker 1: I'm like totally immersed in this other world that I've
Speaker 1: never been to, never thought about going to, and the
Speaker 1: place is so much a part of what makes that
Speaker 1: show work. Yeah, and so that's another idea, like you're
Speaker 1: actually using that show to travel summer you've never been
Speaker 1: in to learn about it. That's right. And sometimes of
Speaker 1: course you're you're learning things that actually don't aren't very
Speaker 1: representative of it, are No. No, there's this danger of
Speaker 1: like a Hollywood version of a place where it's a
Speaker 1: total caricature and it's misleading. And then there are all
Speaker 1: shows that were like are very organic and made by
Speaker 1: local artists and it's it's the real real. And actually
Speaker 1: that's a good point because if you think about it,
Speaker 1: when you don't actually know a place very well, you
Speaker 1: can't actually evaluate what's going on, what are the interventions,
Speaker 1: what are the writers trying to tell us about this
Speaker 1: place that we didn't already know? Boom, And that's why
Speaker 1: we're here today because we're going to talk about two
Speaker 1: Chicago TV shows. Yep, So we're going to talk about
Speaker 1: HBO Max's original series called south Side. It is a
Speaker 1: comedy send up of this predatory lending furniture place called
Speaker 1: Rent to Own, and we learned so much about so
Speaker 1: many different types of Chicago INDs and also just like
Speaker 1: the crazy stuff that happens in a city when folks
Speaker 1: are trying to get their hustle on. And in the
Speaker 1: second part of the show, we're going to talk about
Speaker 1: a TV show called The Bear, which is on x Hulu.
Speaker 1: I love that show and it's actually sort of setting
Speaker 1: a kind of ambiguous near North side of Chicago inside
Speaker 1: an Italian beef shop. And as a guest today, this
Speaker 1: is amazing. We have on Jay Nicole Brooks, who is
Speaker 1: an actor on the South Side. She's not on The Bear,
Speaker 1: but she's an amazing Chicago an amazing Chicago actor, writer,
Speaker 1: intellectual creator, playwright. Yes, and she and I actually met
Speaker 1: several years ago when I finished my book about Cabrini Green,
Speaker 1: you know, this public housing development on the near North
Speaker 1: side of Chicago known for its infamy, because she was
Speaker 1: writing a play about Jane Byrne, Chicago's mayor, who moves
Speaker 1: into Cabrini Green into an apartment in nineteen eighty one,
Speaker 1: and I had a whole chapter in my book about that,
Speaker 1: and so here she and I are getting together and
Speaker 1: like chopping up, like how we each came at this
Speaker 1: story from like, you know, a narrative nonfiction way, from
Speaker 1: a totally like fictional theatrical way, and you know, we
Speaker 1: just totally hit it off because we doing the same work.
Speaker 1: And how Chicago matters so much to the stories that
Speaker 1: you tell from very different approaches. Yeah, that the meaning
Speaker 1: of the place is so significant. So let's just jump
Speaker 1: in with Jane Nicole Brooks and ye, because she's amazing.
Speaker 1: I love it. Let's do it. Well, Hello, it's great
Speaker 1: to see you. It's great to have you on. Likewise,
Speaker 1: I'm so so happy to be here and kick it
Speaker 1: what y'all? Thank you. You are the bomb dignity. But
Speaker 1: I'm not sure what to call you for this interview.
Speaker 1: I mean, I know your name is Jane Nicole Brooks,
Speaker 1: but what do you go by? It depends on the situation.
Speaker 1: You know, if you are like a white person that
Speaker 1: owns a corporation and I owe you money, is probably Dianna.
Speaker 1: If you are in the arts as Jaye Nicole Brooks,
Speaker 1: and if you're friends, you can call me Slick, So
Speaker 1: please call me slick. All right, Slick, I like that
Speaker 1: we are gonna art by playing a clip from the
Speaker 1: HBO comedy The South Side, from a little moment that
Speaker 1: you're in one of the episodes, Alixander, good night. Can
Speaker 1: I help me? Olivia? I'm a pa oh. I thought
Speaker 1: thea were usually kind of on the you know, fresh
Speaker 1: out of college, kind of a younger reconde. Okay, well
Speaker 1: I'm a late blooman, get off my dinner, getting off
Speaker 1: your dick, and I'm off of it. Can I help you? So? Uh? Slick?
Speaker 1: I mean basically, I'm playing that because we're gonna we
Speaker 1: want to get on your metaphorical dick here a little
Speaker 1: bit and and and talk to you at first about
Speaker 1: like who you are professionally, all the amazing stuff that
Speaker 1: you you've accomplished. Can you describe yourself as a Chicago
Speaker 1: actor and writer and creator? As far as my history
Speaker 1: here in Chicago, I'm born and raised here, and uh,
Speaker 1: I studied theater and performance and dance since I was fifteen.
Speaker 1: And though I've lived in Los Angeles and New York,
Speaker 1: Chicago has always planned at home. And after years of
Speaker 1: being away and hustling all over, Chicago is pretty much
Speaker 1: the place where my acting career sort of took a
Speaker 1: pop and started climbing to places where I didn't quite
Speaker 1: know it would And it's been I don't know, it's
Speaker 1: been a beautiful joy in one of those places with Southside.
Speaker 1: So you've been on the Southside, What else have you
Speaker 1: been on? I'm also what we call a recurring character,
Speaker 1: a guest star recurring on Chicago Fire. I play well
Speaker 1: currently like one of the highest ranking characters. I play
Speaker 1: DC Hills, So she's the deputy commissioner over the entire
Speaker 1: fire department. Right, all right, hey, pop um, you know
Speaker 1: I like I like telling people what to do because
Speaker 1: we know how black women in Chicago have risen to
Speaker 1: the highest ranks of the Chicago Fire Department. Absolutely, and
Speaker 1: you know what, that role is actually inspired by actual individuals,
Speaker 1: So shout out to all of the black films and
Speaker 1: women that are first responders and then the fire department.
Speaker 1: So there's that. I've also played a cap on the
Speaker 1: first two seasons of The Shy. I played a character
Speaker 1: called Sergeant Clements. She was a sergeant in the police department. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we love that show. Well, I should say I love
Speaker 1: The Shy. Just amazing don't speak for me. Yea, the acting,
Speaker 1: the storytelling, the writing, and another show with a lot
Speaker 1: of complexity about black people. I mean, I think that's
Speaker 1: one of the things that makes The Shy so interesting. Yes,
Speaker 1: you know, as an actor, I have my experiences. As
Speaker 1: a writer, I might have other thoughts as a creative,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Love it or not love it?
Speaker 1: Any of these shows that are set in Chicago, the
Speaker 1: ones I've been involved with, have really been a great
Speaker 1: joy to work on. And it's just always funny to
Speaker 1: me how you know, Like we have our opinions about
Speaker 1: how they're done, and I got plenty of them, you know.
Speaker 1: So I'm a Chicago and I love my city. But
Speaker 1: I haven't lived in Chicago since I was twenty two
Speaker 1: years old. And one of the things that Ben and
Speaker 1: I talk a lot about is like what this city
Speaker 1: means to us as the shared place that helped us
Speaker 1: become the adults we are and the writers we are
Speaker 1: and the people who care deeply about you know, really
Speaker 1: big questions. I'm curious for you though, since you have
Speaker 1: lived over the places, what is it about Chicago and
Speaker 1: your artistry that is so compelling? Oh sweet baby, mallord. Okay,
Speaker 1: first of all, you know, first of all, I think
Speaker 1: that when you are fortunate enough to be born and
Speaker 1: bred here, there's a certain pride that you grow up with.
Speaker 1: And I don't care what the industry is or what
Speaker 1: a category might be. It's like Chicago over everything everywhere,
Speaker 1: you know, And it's also like we're Midwestern and so
Speaker 1: we're nice, tough guys. I think. I like that. Let
Speaker 1: me ask a related question, which is, you know, you're
Speaker 1: also a playwright and a screenwriter. I mean, so you're
Speaker 1: writing stories about Chicago. What are like the representations of
Speaker 1: Chicago that you're sort of like working against that you're
Speaker 1: trying to subvert. You know that these depictions of the
Speaker 1: city that are out there in TV and film and
Speaker 1: plays that you're like, I am going to show something
Speaker 1: that's different or more complicated or other. Well, Ben, I
Speaker 1: definitely feel you know, I feel like you and I
Speaker 1: have so much in common, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: like coming from some of the same parts of town
Speaker 1: and growing up in the same way. So I don't
Speaker 1: know if these are some of the things that you
Speaker 1: feel as a creator, but for me personally, I feel
Speaker 1: like there's so many other cities across the nation, and
Speaker 1: when it comes to home and TV and things like that,
Speaker 1: we know their personalities. Yeah, And I feel like with
Speaker 1: the city of Chicago, when it's represented on screen, we
Speaker 1: don't always get a sense of the personality. And it's
Speaker 1: often because it's people that are creating it and don't
Speaker 1: know shit about the city. So what are they showing instead?
Speaker 1: Oh my god, they're showing Chicago and Toronto. And I
Speaker 1: get that that's a protos oial thing. I get it,
Speaker 1: but it's visually missing the grit and the gorgeous, fucked
Speaker 1: up architecture. I know when I'm looking in New York,
Speaker 1: I know when I'm looking at la I know when
Speaker 1: I'm looking at Paris. But sometimes when I look at Chicago,
Speaker 1: is it a surface thing? Why set something in Chicago?
Speaker 1: What idea they're going at? And then like, how do
Speaker 1: you like use Chicago Differently? If you don't understand how
Speaker 1: this city came to be, you really won't get the
Speaker 1: nuance of it. So for me, I'm a history nerd,
Speaker 1: and I care about what was in existence before I
Speaker 1: came along because that adversely affects my work. So sometimes
Speaker 1: in my work it might be like an Easter egg
Speaker 1: is just something you kind of see. And I know,
Speaker 1: as a writer and as a creator, I don't really
Speaker 1: give a fuck if you don't understand a Chicago joke.
Speaker 1: I don't give a fuck if you don't understand something
Speaker 1: that is uniquely Chicago, because I'm writing for Chicago's interesting,
Speaker 1: And if you are a good writer, I'm gonna just
Speaker 1: like leave it at this. If you're a good writer,
Speaker 1: you can really achieve the universal through the specific. So
Speaker 1: keep your ship laser focus and give me something that
Speaker 1: I actually can get behind and believe, because otherwise you're
Speaker 1: giving me procedural drama that I like being on. I
Speaker 1: like those shows because they pay well. But like you know,
Speaker 1: give us some nuance because we it's what's there. So
Speaker 1: if you understand the hyper segregation, it's going to filter
Speaker 1: into your work. If you understand that, like we have
Speaker 1: gangster mayors and always have, it's going to go into
Speaker 1: the work or whatever, and gangster governors. We have had
Speaker 1: so many jailbird governors, you know. Well, speaking of keeping
Speaker 1: it real in terms of the nuances of Chicago. After
Speaker 1: the break, we're gonna come back and talk about this
Speaker 1: amazing show that you've been part of South Side. The
Speaker 1: show just dropped its third season, so when we come
Speaker 1: back more on the south Side. So you are bringing
Speaker 1: up shows that feel like authentically Chicago and that are
Speaker 1: grappling with sort of all the hyper segregation and all
Speaker 1: the other issues of the city. And so we have
Speaker 1: this comedy that we want to talk about the South
Speaker 1: Side on HBO and it's set in Englewood and Englewood.
Speaker 1: You and I have both written about Cabrini Green. Englewood
Speaker 1: is like the new Cabrini Green is sort of like
Speaker 1: a shorthand, and the way people think of Chicago a
Speaker 1: shorthand for like crime, segregation, mostly black neighborhood, to think
Speaker 1: about total separation, to think about like the scariest parts
Speaker 1: of the city. And this comedy is really like anything
Speaker 1: but that it does deal with poverty, segregation, crime policing,
Speaker 1: but in a way that sort of subverts all of
Speaker 1: these unbiased but we want that, we want that. I'm
Speaker 1: extraordinarily proud of this team because they are not only
Speaker 1: writing about it, they film in these communities, They film
Speaker 1: on the West Side, they film all over the South Side,
Speaker 1: and they get into places where I've known other creative
Speaker 1: teams and crews where they're like, oh, we can't get
Speaker 1: the insurance, we don't feel safe there and it's not safe.
Speaker 1: And I'm like, well, why are these guys able to
Speaker 1: do it? And I think it's because you have to
Speaker 1: forge a relationship with communities, and I've watched these guys
Speaker 1: do that. I'll tell you super quick anecdote. The first
Speaker 1: time I auditioned for Southside is an actor. I heard
Speaker 1: about the script and then I was like, all right,
Speaker 1: this is a comedy in Chicago is probably not going
Speaker 1: to make it past pilot because no one gives Chicago
Speaker 1: a chance. Like I'm like, Chicago has the funniest motherfuckers
Speaker 1: on the planet, yet we don't have comedies here, blah
Speaker 1: blah blah. So I get the sides and I'm like, oh,
Speaker 1: this scene is kind of funny. I was like, damn,
Speaker 1: this scene is really funny. Yeah, damn, this seems real real.
Speaker 1: So I was like, you know what, is probably gonna
Speaker 1: go to a Hollywood big name, so fuck it. I
Speaker 1: don't care. I'm gonna show up and be a chice
Speaker 1: cargo as I can because I'm not gonna get it.
Speaker 1: So I showed up in do Rag my Jordan's I
Speaker 1: had on my my Bulls jersey and like, I just
Speaker 1: gave it to him. I was like, fuck it, I'm
Speaker 1: not gonna get it. And they're probably gonna say, we
Speaker 1: don't understand your vernacular. And if you you thought it
Speaker 1: was gonna go to knee along, listen, if I ever
Speaker 1: in my lifetime lose a role to knee along, trust me,
Speaker 1: I'm getting that tattooed on my forehead. She lost the
Speaker 1: role to you. Come on, let's go, let's shout out
Speaker 1: to knee along. But my point of that story is
Speaker 1: that not only in that audition process with the director, writers,
Speaker 1: and a couple of producers, not only were they into
Speaker 1: it and encouraged it. I booked the part and then
Speaker 1: I'm like, Okay, the network is going to say, now
Speaker 1: we got to change it, but it's Comedy Central. They
Speaker 1: don't give a fuck. So it was on Comedy Central,
Speaker 1: and then it got picked up by HBO initially, and
Speaker 1: then it got picked up by HBO. Max Yeah, and
Speaker 1: you get on the set and you're like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: they're gonna let me be my authentic self. They're gonna
Speaker 1: let Chicago be Chicago. And once you like sink into
Speaker 1: it and relax. The show just really flies because it's
Speaker 1: honest to itself. It's not trying to write Chicago so
Speaker 1: that the entire world understands it. It's just what it is,
Speaker 1: and you just got to catch up to it. I
Speaker 1: just smile brightly because I think that's really dope and
Speaker 1: not always the case. Yeah, well, I love that you're
Speaker 1: speaking to this kind of authenticity about the way that
Speaker 1: the South Side is depicted in Inglewood, being this community
Speaker 1: that I was often written out is a dangerous place
Speaker 1: that one should go to about. I don't know. Seven
Speaker 1: years ago, I was invited to the culinary school that
Speaker 1: was built as part of Kennedy King College there and
Speaker 1: it was the first time that I had actually done
Speaker 1: anything professionally in Inglewood, and I thought, this is amazing
Speaker 1: that there's this cooking school in this community that people think,
Speaker 1: you know, you should do everything in your power to
Speaker 1: avoid if you don't happen to live there. So you're
Speaker 1: absolutely right. This community is way more rich and compelling
Speaker 1: than we often think about. But the show itself, which
Speaker 1: I just love, is to me like a cross between
Speaker 1: the Office and like The Odyssey, because every episode is
Speaker 1: an adventure that these guys have to overcome some set
Speaker 1: of obstacles, some set of challenges. All of the main
Speaker 1: characters come on, man, shout out to Homer. Okay, come
Speaker 1: on with the Year of Joy in my groove, y'all,
Speaker 1: let me finish. So there's all these anti stereotypes and
Speaker 1: we just absolutely love this for what it does to
Speaker 1: make complex the brilliance of black people in that city.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna tell you something. As an actor, I'm like,
Speaker 1: if I don't get a chance to do another that
Speaker 1: that's set in Chicago, I still feel like I won.
Speaker 1: On the first season The South Side, my character was
Speaker 1: in an episode called The Day of the Jordans Drop
Speaker 1: and it's literally the you know, it's all about the
Speaker 1: Jordans and yeah, new a new version of the or
Speaker 1: Jordan's coming out. Hey, look, brou if it was any
Speaker 1: other day, we will pull over. I mean, but he
Speaker 1: them new Jordans is coming out, and we got to
Speaker 1: get back west and finished this all up before the
Speaker 1: hit sales out. Hey what if I told you there's
Speaker 1: a store near you right now that never sails out where?
Speaker 1: Really I get stuff up trying and it's just such
Speaker 1: a Chicago hilarious episode. So it was just a lot
Speaker 1: of fucking fun to do it in this way. You
Speaker 1: had talked about how the specific can be universal, and certainly,
Speaker 1: like the three of us all had these roots not
Speaker 1: just in Chicago but on the South Side. And so
Speaker 1: I watched this show and even as a white dude
Speaker 1: who grew up in the South Side, it just speaks
Speaker 1: to me and like all these like you know, arounds
Speaker 1: are popping right, Like they talk about the stuck up
Speaker 1: girls at Kenwood High School where we went to, you know,
Speaker 1: we went to Kenwood, and not just that I'm married
Speaker 1: my prom date, you know, like like I'm still married
Speaker 1: to this dug up girl from Keo who's amazing and wonderful, Danielle,
Speaker 1: I love you. But they're all kinds of Chicago things
Speaker 1: like that. There's this one scene we're about to play
Speaker 1: a clip from where one of the characters is inside
Speaker 1: a Harold's Chicken Shack and he wants more of their
Speaker 1: famous Mile sauce, you know, which is like this mixture
Speaker 1: of tangy barbecue sauce, and the woman behind the bulletproof
Speaker 1: glass is refusing to give him more. Thank you, kind sir,
Speaker 1: Can I have five more mile sauces. I really loved
Speaker 1: the stuff. Hey Donovan, yo talk about he want five
Speaker 1: mile sauces, five five law sauces. This is always you
Speaker 1: three piece of white No he happiness a day man.
Speaker 1: I love that clip. I have lived that experience inside
Speaker 1: Harold's no doubt. But there are all these other kinds
Speaker 1: of Chicago things, which is just amazing. There's an episode
Speaker 1: that uses the idea of DIBs, which is, you know,
Speaker 1: on a snowy day, when you clear the walk in
Speaker 1: front of your house, you start putting your furniture out
Speaker 1: there to make sure that nobody else parks in your spot.
Speaker 1: It is totally Chicago gangster. And there are all these
Speaker 1: other Chicago things too. There's an episode on stepping, which
Speaker 1: is a kind of local dancing and house music, and
Speaker 1: and Khalil loves golf. I know that Khalil loves golf. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's the scene of Jackson Park, which of course probably
Speaker 1: the most dangerous golf course in America. It's like literally
Speaker 1: the journey from I believe Whole number nine to Whole
Speaker 1: number ten. You you cross a kind of a baby highway,
Speaker 1: and that's a that's a plot point in the show,
Speaker 1: and you know there's like there's like a riff on
Speaker 1: Italian Fiesta. Chance the rapper actually makes a really good
Speaker 1: joke about like how depressed he is. He's like, my
Speaker 1: favorite restaurants Italian Fiesta. I'm sad, to be honest, I
Speaker 1: hate my life. Why do I have to name tags
Speaker 1: on They both say currency exchange. My favorite restaurant is
Speaker 1: Italian Fiesta on the South Side. Love that place. Some
Speaker 1: two words don't go together. Absolutely, one is Italian, one
Speaker 1: is Mexican. That's joke ever, but you know, so throwing
Speaker 1: that back on you, like national audience is listening to
Speaker 1: this and being like, I don't get all the references.
Speaker 1: Is there a butt to that? But I didn't grow
Speaker 1: up in Queens and I catch all jokes. Yeah yeah,
Speaker 1: but I didn't grow up in Brooklyn, And you know
Speaker 1: what I mean, That's just what I feel about it,
Speaker 1: Or New Jersey and I'm watching the Sopranos or like
Speaker 1: absolutely which exit I don't fucking know shit about Jersey,
Speaker 1: Like you know what I mean? So like, I feel like,
Speaker 1: as a viewer, we are trained to accept the personalities
Speaker 1: of other cities, and so now I honestly feel like
Speaker 1: Southside is taking a charge in training. And I say
Speaker 1: that lovingly and respectfully, but like really grabbing the viewer,
Speaker 1: like yoking them up and saying, catch up. This is Chicago,
Speaker 1: this is what we do. Yeah. And if you don't
Speaker 1: understand the Kimwood references and like, the show just doesn't care.
Speaker 1: And to me, the show does the best with clowning
Speaker 1: because if you're a true clown. I've set this so
Speaker 1: many times before. I mean it, A true clown doesn't
Speaker 1: do a joke for a setup. A clown just stays
Speaker 1: in it. And if they happen to get the laugh, great,
Speaker 1: but the clown has to keep going. And that's the
Speaker 1: fucking difference you deliver the next joke. Yeah, you gotta
Speaker 1: keep going. Yeah, that's a beautifully put that. We learned
Speaker 1: something from that about how to Yeah. So I feel
Speaker 1: like Bob Newhart and you know, the creative team behind
Speaker 1: south Side like both, well fucking done. And so when
Speaker 1: they invited me back the second season to be in
Speaker 1: this episode that's a take on Ferris Bueller's Day Off,
Speaker 1: which I grew up just like totally idolizing that movie,
Speaker 1: I was like, god, damn, I won again. I just
Speaker 1: grew up a nerd for that movie and knowing every
Speaker 1: line and all of it. So it was just a
Speaker 1: lot of fucking fun to do it. So in this episode,
Speaker 1: Brenda and Turner's Day Off, it is a total parody
Speaker 1: of the nineteen eighty six film Fairest Bueller's Day Off,
Speaker 1: starring Matthew Broderick and your character Olivia. Like everyone in
Speaker 1: the film is trying to find Brenda, who is the
Speaker 1: fairest in this story. It's awesome. It's about black nerds.
Speaker 1: I just love that these guys are sitting around. It's
Speaker 1: white guys as black guys. They're on the set and
Speaker 1: out of nowhere, this conversation unfolds about a book called
Speaker 1: Web of Stars Saga One Quantum Tunnel, a story about Shakiare,
Speaker 1: a space miner stuck on a dead end rock. I mean,
Speaker 1: come on, you can't make this stuff up. And they
Speaker 1: play this scene to the t and here's the clip.
Speaker 1: Let me just go ahead and dive in. I didn't
Speaker 1: like you, his subhuman identical doppelganger. I mean, he's evil,
Speaker 1: he's ugly, his girlfriend is deeply unhappy with his penis.
Speaker 1: Every fight he gets into he gets to quote greenshit
Speaker 1: unquote beat outible. A good villain is supposed to be
Speaker 1: the hero of his own story, but this guy's a
Speaker 1: disappointment to himself. I mean, it's catch phrases. Why am
Speaker 1: I so whack Chicago over everything? All day? Those actors
Speaker 1: are just so genius and they all Chicago man, So
Speaker 1: I just gotta keep I'm gonna wave that flag. I
Speaker 1: don't care. I love that scene. When Kleil and I
Speaker 1: started talking about the show, this is the piece of
Speaker 1: it that he kept on coming back to. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: you know, because it's about black nerds, you identified, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it's about black nerves. It's okay, fine, I missed that,
Speaker 1: got it. I don't know how they got through that scene.
Speaker 1: I mean, like, like seriously, those are comic geniuses who
Speaker 1: are talking about and that's why this scene is so
Speaker 1: perfect because it's for the black nerds. So it's like
Speaker 1: it's that hood shit and then it's that nerd shit,
Speaker 1: and it's all coming into one. Yeah. Yeah, So how
Speaker 1: did you see this episode? In conversation with that movie?
Speaker 1: She has to go and chase after the lead act.
Speaker 1: So in a way, it feels like the character Rooney
Speaker 1: that's chasing after Ferris. It also feels like this completely
Speaker 1: made up character, which it is, and there was a
Speaker 1: lot of freedom in that. But it's also Ferris's sister
Speaker 1: Olivia in this particular episode of Southside is pulling from
Speaker 1: a lot of the characters in the original movie, and
Speaker 1: I was a little intimidated by it, to be honest
Speaker 1: with you, and I just want to lean into this
Speaker 1: a little more because in whatever it is, like twenty
Speaker 1: something minutes, there's sort of like a scene for seeing,
Speaker 1: you know, recreation of Ferris Bueller's day off, but in
Speaker 1: a sort of black context, a Chicago black context. Instead
Speaker 1: of going a Cubs game, they go to a Socks game, yes,
Speaker 1: as they should. Instead of going to the Art Institute,
Speaker 1: they go to the Disable Museum of African American History,
Speaker 1: which I love, absolutely love. There's just a beautiful scene there.
Speaker 1: It's like, you know, lyrical. Actually it's a silent moment
Speaker 1: where they're just looking at the art. I love that because,
Speaker 1: first of all, I had the great pleasure of meeting
Speaker 1: Margaret Burrows, the founder of the DuSable Museum, when I
Speaker 1: was eight years old. You know, she was an educator
Speaker 1: and she also went to my grammar school and so like,
Speaker 1: I've known some of these heroes my entire life. So
Speaker 1: we grew up going to the Dussable Museum. I held
Speaker 1: hands with my first boyfriend on the field trip at
Speaker 1: the DuSable Museum. I know, shout out to you, Brian Daniels.
Speaker 1: So those things are iconic, but you don't see it
Speaker 1: on film. Yeah, yeah, So seeing it in this episode
Speaker 1: it gives me a lot of pleasure and joy and
Speaker 1: I'm like, see how hard that was? Not? Yes, there's
Speaker 1: one more famous scene to shout out. So everyone listening
Speaker 1: to this who is of a certain generation remembers the
Speaker 1: famous scene and faris Bueller when he's not in school
Speaker 1: that day. Of course. It's it's in the opening first
Speaker 1: quarter of the film, and his teacher is calling out
Speaker 1: his name and it's very monotone, Bueller Bueller, Bueller Bueller.
Speaker 1: So so there's there's a riff on that obviously in
Speaker 1: south In this episode of south Side, it's out a
Speaker 1: white Sox game. There's actually a sock full of French
Speaker 1: fries there. And she's also calling somebody's name who is
Speaker 1: Bulah with a you know, like like Bullah shoot Smith
Speaker 1: to school right next to my house, Bula Bulla, somebody
Speaker 1: name last a woman's first names. Yeah, oh man, it's
Speaker 1: so so good. I was just gonna say one last
Speaker 1: thing about this. You know, you were talking about clowning,
Speaker 1: and you're talking about you know, Cleil, you were even
Speaker 1: talking about the shows that you think is like and
Speaker 1: South Side feels like the Simpsons, Like they're all of
Speaker 1: these personalities that are characters in and I'm of cells
Speaker 1: and they populate this world. It happens to be Englewood
Speaker 1: on the South Side of Chicago, and in all of
Speaker 1: its details too, it really is that place. But it
Speaker 1: also feels like these humans who were like animated and
Speaker 1: alive and like you can connect with them in a
Speaker 1: way that you were saying, slick no matter where you're
Speaker 1: from or where you're connecting to this show. I think
Speaker 1: that that is so accurate. And on point one day,
Speaker 1: talking to their main director, Michael Blyden is just super
Speaker 1: smart and a nice guy. He actually described it as
Speaker 1: such that it was like the Simpsons. Some of these
Speaker 1: characters appear and reappear, and they have you know, they
Speaker 1: come in different forms, and that to me, that feels
Speaker 1: like a creative team that's thoughtful because they're creating an ensemble.
Speaker 1: So you might see an actor in one season as
Speaker 1: one character and then they come back another season on
Speaker 1: South Side and they're a completely different character. And it's
Speaker 1: the testament to uh, not only the skill set of
Speaker 1: the actor, but like the show doesn't take itself too seriously,
Speaker 1: but it also is like, I don't know, building this
Speaker 1: crazy multiverse, and I'm into it. So yeah, I think
Speaker 1: your dad, you're spot on, Ben. So we're gonna talk
Speaker 1: about another show set in Chicago. FXI show on Hulu
Speaker 1: called The Bear. We'll be right back after the break,
Speaker 1: all right, So we're gonna talk about The Bear here, guys.
Speaker 1: And this is another show set in Chicago. It just
Speaker 1: finished its first season, and the premise of the show
Speaker 1: this guy Carmen. He comes back home to run the
Speaker 1: family's Italian beef shop. You know, carlimanbra Speedina. Can you
Speaker 1: start new shot in there from I need my fellow first,
Speaker 1: Jeff Carliman beef It had potentials. We have sister, but
Speaker 1: you could punch him, blanche him, freez him frying before
Speaker 1: the beach. Right, Okay, his brother has died by suicide
Speaker 1: and his brother had run this Italian beef shop, and
Speaker 1: now Carmen is back in Chicago, this high end chef
Speaker 1: who was working in New York City, and now he
Speaker 1: wants to run the Italian beef place like it's like
Speaker 1: it's a Michelin Star restaurant. He doesn't exactly want to
Speaker 1: run it, but he has to run it. Carmi, the
Speaker 1: main character, aka the Bear that's his family nickname, is
Speaker 1: this really troubled soul. He's come from the highest end
Speaker 1: of the cooking world. He's been to the top of
Speaker 1: the mountain, and he's basically had his butt kicked. His
Speaker 1: self esteem is at its slowest, and he finds himself
Speaker 1: inheriting the family business. And it's a shit show. They
Speaker 1: just got a C rating from the Board of Health,
Speaker 1: so they're they're barely making it. I mean, do you
Speaker 1: love this show as much as we do? I have
Speaker 1: such a this role reaction to this show because I
Speaker 1: felt like it snatched my wig off. I was like, God, damn,
Speaker 1: I'm not even wearing one today, and this is snatching
Speaker 1: off the good place front. What is this short answer? Yes,
Speaker 1: it's a good goddamn show, all right. Usually I watched
Speaker 1: a show with a stank. I especially when it's in Chicago,
Speaker 1: because I'm like, how come Nane call me and I
Speaker 1: don't like that shit? No way, Um, I'm just kidding,
Speaker 1: but I absolutely love that show. That show is definitely
Speaker 1: written for me for so many different reasons. I have
Speaker 1: worked in the restaurant world as a server. Oh wow.
Speaker 1: I'm definitely someone who grew up in kitchens. I come
Speaker 1: from three generations of cooks. Like I grew up in
Speaker 1: a household where you could not be in the kitchen
Speaker 1: with my mother unless you were talking about food or
Speaker 1: unless you were chopping. There was no like no, And
Speaker 1: I'm in the same way when I'm in the kitchen.
Speaker 1: Let's talk more about this sense of setting in city.
Speaker 1: Doesn't matter that this show is set in Chicago, Like,
Speaker 1: you know, could it be set somewhere else or is
Speaker 1: that part of its meaning? You could argue that this
Speaker 1: show could be set in Philadelphia. M I see why
Speaker 1: you're picking Philly. It's like you can it's a it's
Speaker 1: a blue collar, tough town as cold as this. It's
Speaker 1: like you could swap out the Italian beef arguably for
Speaker 1: a Philly cheese steak. This that's just an example, but
Speaker 1: the Italian beef is a superior sandwich. Okay, just for
Speaker 1: the record, Just for the record, And I understand why
Speaker 1: it's set in Chicago. Really, are you really are living
Speaker 1: and die in Chicago? Yeah? I think this show is
Speaker 1: very Chicago. I also if you just like look at it,
Speaker 1: like just take the pilot episode and you just step
Speaker 1: back from a technical standpoint, Yes, Like the character comes in,
Speaker 1: he has there's this expository information we don't know too
Speaker 1: much about. He has a challenge, he has to figure
Speaker 1: the shit out. He goes through the bullshit with the team,
Speaker 1: and then at the end of the episode he's like,
Speaker 1: fuck it, I'm gonna go I'm gonna go against it.
Speaker 1: So like it's set up very neatly in terms of
Speaker 1: TV Land, but there's something about it that feels very Chicago.
Speaker 1: You know, what the fuck are you know the Kennedy
Speaker 1: chill the fuck out, Citer listen, Naperville, No fucking Cicero's
Speaker 1: in will met Now you gotta get on the That's right,
Speaker 1: that's right, that's so we're hurry to see that motherfucker. Well,
Speaker 1: I know Ben has uh, I mean been being there
Speaker 1: and for him this is daily life. For me, it's
Speaker 1: you know it's just an occasional visit. But all these
Speaker 1: scenes of the elevated train, the l the skyscrapers off
Speaker 1: in the distance, this sense of like a grimy place. Uh.
Speaker 1: I personally love the interplay of like the old immigrant
Speaker 1: Italian heritage and the new kind of black and Latino
Speaker 1: presence in the kitchen, as this like mashup of old
Speaker 1: and new. That's so interesting. Khalil talking about griminess and
Speaker 1: you even saying, you know, slick, that it might be Philly.
Speaker 1: Like to me, in this show, Chicago equals grit, grime, toughness, Right,
Speaker 1: there's this idea that they want to convey and you're right,
Speaker 1: like working class and sort of this kind of you know,
Speaker 1: low end food that people love. You know, it's not
Speaker 1: high end food. I don't think there's a single shot
Speaker 1: with sunshine in the entire show, Like it's either a
Speaker 1: night shot or it's overcast. Like there's such sort of
Speaker 1: you know, grimness you know throughout the whole thing. You
Speaker 1: know is that there is an idea of Chicago. But
Speaker 1: of course, like I'll just compare it to the South Side,
Speaker 1: Like there are no neighborhood shots. There's like Khalil, you
Speaker 1: were talking about things like the l and the lake
Speaker 1: and buildings, and sometimes we're traveling and then we're inside
Speaker 1: interiors or we're in alleys, but we're never in like
Speaker 1: a place, a community where people live, and certainly not
Speaker 1: with sunshine and you know, neighbors and things like that.
Speaker 1: I love that. To me, that is a very specific
Speaker 1: and smart idea because when I watch shows that are
Speaker 1: set in like northern Europe, I love those. I love
Speaker 1: the Ship to set in Finland and Scotland because they're
Speaker 1: like these heavy blue overtone you know, it's great, it's
Speaker 1: not sunny. This show plays on this idea of the
Speaker 1: kitchen itself as a melting pot, as a place where
Speaker 1: culture comes together, and I think that's really really beautiful.
Speaker 1: We want to play a scene though, of like when
Speaker 1: culture comes together and then shit goes crazy, like like,
Speaker 1: because as much as we might romanticize the idea of
Speaker 1: a melting pot, these folks are not always getting along.
Speaker 1: There's you know, the Latino folks, there's black folks, there's
Speaker 1: you know, the white guys who are our Italian heritage,
Speaker 1: and all of their ethnic identities are really played up
Speaker 1: to some degree in this show. So we're going to
Speaker 1: play a clip of Richie, the Italian cousin who was
Speaker 1: the best friend of the guy who died, who is
Speaker 1: just kind of like your asshole's asshole, but he's something
Speaker 1: fundamentally endearing about this guy. And then Sydney, who is
Speaker 1: this young black woman who is super well educated. She
Speaker 1: went to Culinary Institute of the Arts, and she comes
Speaker 1: into this kitchen and she's like, what is happening here?
Speaker 1: Except she grew up eating that food and she thinks
Speaker 1: it's an amazing place and she wants to help to
Speaker 1: change it. So here's a scene from Richie and Sydney
Speaker 1: trying to figure each other out. You know, the restaurant
Speaker 1: could be good, like I know, you know that, Like
Speaker 1: it doesn't have to be a place where the food
Speaker 1: is shitty and where everybody acts shitty and feels shitty.
Speaker 1: Like it could be a good legit spot. Okay, you
Speaker 1: know what, Sydney're getting a little aggressive, and I think
Speaker 1: maybe you should just pause and take a breath before
Speaker 1: you start driving. Man or woman. I'm not discriminating. It's
Speaker 1: dangerous to get behind the wheel when you're hysterical. It's
Speaker 1: so interesting, I mean, I love that you picked that
Speaker 1: clip Khalil of Richie and Sydney and like a sort
Speaker 1: of like a crux of attensions. You know, older, younger, white, Black.
Speaker 1: He didn't even finish a technical school. She's you know,
Speaker 1: super well educated. Yeah, and you know those divisions in
Speaker 1: this setting which brings them together. That certainly doesn't have
Speaker 1: to be Chicago, you know, any city that has a diversity.
Speaker 1: How can we bring people who are different together? What's
Speaker 1: a place that can bring them together? And once they're together, shit, Like,
Speaker 1: there's all sorts of drama that's going to unfold and slick.
Speaker 1: Maybe you can talk about this. This isn't a lot
Speaker 1: of ways a wider show than The South Side, of course,
Speaker 1: but there's this way that the Kitchen is written almost
Speaker 1: like a stage play, Like you could write a play
Speaker 1: that's set in the kitchen, and because it's a workplace,
Speaker 1: it brings all these different people together. How did you
Speaker 1: see that in terms of like racial dynamics and letting
Speaker 1: them play out in this setting? In many ways, when
Speaker 1: I watched this, I was like, well, this is a
Speaker 1: little bit of a documentary because kitchens can be extraordinarily
Speaker 1: not just the kids and restaurants can be so segregated.
Speaker 1: You might see dishwashers that might be Latine or Latin
Speaker 1: X or Hispanic or whatever. You might see some cooks
Speaker 1: on the line that are mostly male and uh, you
Speaker 1: know a variety of ethnic and racisms such there aren't
Speaker 1: very many women or films in the kitchen. Usually the
Speaker 1: chef de cuisine is you know, some really fucked up
Speaker 1: angry white dude. Uh. You know, you might come into
Speaker 1: the whole stand and see someone of color. You might
Speaker 1: see like, you know, I've also seen the kitchens where
Speaker 1: it's like you got you know, black folks in the
Speaker 1: back chopping things, but not on the floor. So like
Speaker 1: it's a it's a very hierarchical, very hierarchical. It's high. Yes,
Speaker 1: everything is at play, the hierarchy, the patriarchy. Yeah. So
Speaker 1: in this show, I love that they're to me, they're
Speaker 1: just a band of misfits. That's really it is, like
Speaker 1: he returns to Misfit Island and he's trying to get
Speaker 1: them ready for the Macy's Parade and they just not
Speaker 1: you know, the Macy's Parade, right, right, But I love
Speaker 1: that he comes back to try to implement this French brigade,
Speaker 1: which is like a terrible idea. It's also like I
Speaker 1: get the discipline of it, but it's problematic. And so
Speaker 1: you have this, uh, this young black woman who has
Speaker 1: gone to the CIA, so you know that she knows
Speaker 1: how to sharpen her knives and chop it up and
Speaker 1: make a stew And that's the Culinary Institute of America.
Speaker 1: It's not the Central Intelligence. No, it's not. So you
Speaker 1: have that, but then you also have the like she's
Speaker 1: basically coming in, she's saying like, we can do something
Speaker 1: better and coming in with a better business model. I
Speaker 1: completely understand that, coming from a mother who managed and
Speaker 1: operated family owned businesses, so I understood how I got
Speaker 1: everything in this show. So it feels really really real
Speaker 1: to me. We have a question for you, So, um,
Speaker 1: if we can get you hired to write for season
Speaker 1: two of The Bear, what would you do differently? I
Speaker 1: think the show does not take for granted that the
Speaker 1: audience is dumb and that you have to feed them
Speaker 1: pardoning you know, pardon the pun, but that you have
Speaker 1: to spoon feed them everything. And as a writer, that
Speaker 1: makes me happy. And so if you put me on
Speaker 1: season two as a writer, like the thing I would
Speaker 1: do differently is like become a writer and then put
Speaker 1: myself in the cast. And that's what I wanted to try, right,
Speaker 1: I would do it like like in Rocky you know
Speaker 1: how how Nick his coach who's like this, you know,
Speaker 1: quintessential Irish guy turns out to be Jewish and like
Speaker 1: you know Rocky three or for something, that's what I
Speaker 1: would do. It turns out that all these Italian guys
Speaker 1: are Jewish, and that's and then like it moves into
Speaker 1: like you know, Skokie and the synagogues and they start
Speaker 1: selling they start selling Italian beef on bagels, right, you know,
Speaker 1: like a little schnitzel, and like you know, I would
Speaker 1: like you love it? Yeah, so oh well, well, Slick,
Speaker 1: it has been amazing to have you on the show.
Speaker 1: You know, your career is blooming at this time. You
Speaker 1: just close to play nineteen nineteen inspired by the poetry
Speaker 1: of Eviewing, and I know Ben got a chance to
Speaker 1: see the play, and so we're just super excited that
Speaker 1: you took some time out to join us when some
Speaker 1: of my best friends are today. We wish you all
Speaker 1: the best in your continued work time as a construct,
Speaker 1: and I'm glad I got to spend it with two
Speaker 1: people whom I just adore. Thank you both, seriously. Yeah yeah,
Speaker 1: And you're talking about our aligned paths, me and you
Speaker 1: and sort of like imagining the city. I'm with you.
Speaker 1: Let's go, let's keep on doing it. Slick is raising
Speaker 1: arms and making these giant muscles, giant muscles. Let's go.
Speaker 1: Let's fucking go, man, Khalil. I feel like I'm not
Speaker 1: done talking about the Bear. I'm still thinking about it
Speaker 1: in terms of Chicago. Well, that's what a great television does, right,
Speaker 1: keeps the conversation going, That's what a great podcast is.
Speaker 1: It's just a starter for conversation. But but you know,
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about as it's Chicago aspects, you know, watching
Speaker 1: it in this way, and I think it's different than
Speaker 1: Southside in a lot of ways. Okay, break it down
Speaker 1: to me. It feels like it's made by outsiders. And
Speaker 1: there are all these sort of like literal billboards and
Speaker 1: I'm using literal correctly here. There'll be these billboards here
Speaker 1: that are like giant Chicago nests, things like lord, this
Speaker 1: like terrible drink that people drink here, Like signposts like
Speaker 1: remember this is Chicago, this is Chicago. This is Chicago.
Speaker 1: Here's the l here's the lake. It's all exteriors, like
Speaker 1: it gets a lot the Chicago things wrong, you know,
Speaker 1: and this is like the nippicky Chicago stuff. But also
Speaker 1: like I'm okay with it. And I think I'm okay
Speaker 1: with it because because the intimacy of that, those kitchen
Speaker 1: scenes that we talked about, which in a way could
Speaker 1: be anywhere, but like the dynamics that happened there. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, I probably don't feel the same way you
Speaker 1: do about it. It's more outsider perspective and the way
Speaker 1: that they use all these symbols of Chicago. And I'll
Speaker 1: tell you why bring it? Why? Because yeah, because when
Speaker 1: we worked at Hyde Park Computers, a place where we
Speaker 1: met when we were fourteen. Yeah, fourteen years old. You
Speaker 1: were my boss. Boom. That's right. We were in a
Speaker 1: place although it wasn't a kitchen, it was kind of like,
Speaker 1: what is happening on this television show? You are writing
Speaker 1: our next paycheck right here? Hyde Park Computer is the
Speaker 1: TV show, the sitcom. You had Ed the Irish Catholic John,
Speaker 1: the Jewish guy from New Jersey. You had Jeff, the
Speaker 1: Polish descended guy from the North Side, Abraham, the Mexican
Speaker 1: American descended along with Jerry Man. Holy cow, you had
Speaker 1: black guy Aaron, you had Jeff who was Chinese American
Speaker 1: and who was from the University of Chicago. It was
Speaker 1: this crazy stew of people. All we wanted to make
Speaker 1: was the perfect computer store. We just wanted to make
Speaker 1: the best computers are Pole. You're right, but think about it,
Speaker 1: we had our own French brigade of making computers back then. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and so in a way, the show actually makes me
Speaker 1: feel more like a Chicago because, unlike what most people
Speaker 1: think of this, you know, crazy segregated city, which it
Speaker 1: is true, there are these pockets of amazingness where people
Speaker 1: from all walks of life do live life together. They
Speaker 1: work together, they play together, they love together. And that's
Speaker 1: what I love about both Southside and The Bear. Yeah
Speaker 1: you said it, and Slick said this so beautifully when
Speaker 1: she said you need to forge relationships with communities that
Speaker 1: these TV shows and that you can make the universal
Speaker 1: in the specific two things that are going to stay
Speaker 1: with me. Oh, I love it, oh Man. Yes. And
Speaker 1: you know, for the second season of The Bear, when
Speaker 1: it's said in a Jewish delicatessen becomes Manny's Delhi. I
Speaker 1: think we're gonna even develop these themes more, you know,
Speaker 1: like when they have the matzo ball fight. I mean,
Speaker 1: this is gonna be amazing, all right. I'll want to
Speaker 1: look forward to that, all right, man, Love you, Love you.
Speaker 1: Some of My Best Friends Are is a production of
Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries. The show is written and hosted by me
Speaker 1: Khalil Dubron Muhammad and my best friend Ben Austin. It's
Speaker 1: produced by John Assanti and Lucy Sullivan. Our editor is
Speaker 1: Jasmine Morris, our engineer is Amanda ka Wang, and our
Speaker 1: executive producer is Mia LaBelle. At Pushkin thanks to Leita Mulad,
Speaker 1: Julia Barton, Heather Faine, Carly Migliori, John Schnars, Greta Khne,
Speaker 1: and Jacob Weissberg. Our theme song, Little Lily, is by
Speaker 1: fellow chicagoan the brilliant Avery R. Young, from his album Tubman.
Speaker 1: You definitely want to check out his music at his
Speaker 1: website Avery R. Young dot com. You can find Pushkin
Speaker 1: on all social platforms at Pushkin Pods, and you can
Speaker 1: sign up for our newsletter at pushkin dot fm. To
Speaker 1: find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio, app, Apple podcasts,
Speaker 1: or wherever you like to listen. And if you like
Speaker 1: our show, please give us a five star rating and
Speaker 1: a review and listen even if you don't like to
Speaker 1: give it a five star rating and a review, and
Speaker 1: please tell all of your best friends about it. Thank you,